S04.E01: Esteban (No. 79)

[Danielg342]

Quote

After Liz is abducted by a man claiming to be her father, Red sets out to find her at any cost. Meanwhile, the Task Force grapples with the shocking news that Liz is still alive.

From: http://www.spoilertv.com/2016/09/the-blacklist-episode-401-esteban.html

Edited September 19, 2016 by Danielg342

[ottoDbusdriver]

After Liz is abducted by a man claiming to be her father, Red sets out to find her at any cost.

How many times has Lizzie been captured by now ? It's gotta be in double digits.

And not if but when Lizzie gets uncaptured/discaptured/de-captured/rescued, how can she every resume her life with the FBI since she has been declared legally dead ? Because faking your own death is a crime -- not as big a crime as assassinating the Attorney General, but it's certainly a felony.

Meanwhile, the Task Force grapples with the shocking news that Liz is still alive.

They have to grapple with the fact that no one actually checked the coffin at the funeral to see if Lizzie was in there.  
It makes everyone on the Task Force look like complete and utter fools that they were duped so easily.

 

[Danielg342]

11 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

 

How many times has Lizzie been captured by now ? It's gotta be in double digits.

 

My guess is that the abduction is the one that happened right at the end of Season 3, so it's not a new abduction "per se".

[ottoDbusdriver]

45 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

My guess is that the abduction is the one that happened right at the end of Season 3, so it's not a new abduction "per se".

Agreed, definitely what we saw at the end of last season, but Lizzie was captured so many times in previous seasons, it has become pretty much a meaningless and consequence-less endeavor whenever she gets captured.  Basically, all I think of is "Captured again.  Really ?".

[Danielg342]

3 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Agreed, definitely what we saw at the end of last season, but Lizzie was captured so many times in previous seasons, it has become pretty much a meaningless and consequence-less endeavor whenever she gets captured.  Basically, all I think of is "Captured again.  Really ?".

I know. It beats down the point that Lizzie is just a plot device that moves. She really does nothing to her benefit.

[Drusilla]

LE YAWN.

[MostlyC]

Hey folks, I'm not going to lock this thread for now, but please refrain from discussing the episode until AFTER it has aired.

Red and his hat get touchy about these kind of things.

[Danielg342]

OK. Sorry.

[ottoDbusdriver]

Oh FFS, some nefarious henchmen grabbed Agnes too, but for some incredibly stupid reason they didn't grab Tom and Agnes when they grabbed Lizzie.

Why in the fuckity-fuck would that henchman approach the trunk of the car with Tom in it with a shovel in one hand and a shotgun in the other ?  Seriously, how was he going to pull Tom's limp body out of the trunk with his hands full ?  Too stupid for words.

Mr. Kaplan is on Red's shitlist -- so if he isn't going to kill her or use her, why is Red dragging her around Cuba ?

Navabi being all butt-hurt about Lizzie's fake death is stupid too.

The plan to put Ressler into Havana as a CIA assassin -- just seemed to go a little too smooth so he could play message boy for Red.

Ton "finally" escapes for good buy throwing a rock at his captor while he is distracted on the phone -- these really are the worst henchmen ever !!

Oh Lizzie, there was a henchman right outside the door who would have seen you put that band-aid on the door lock.  And Alexander Kirk was stupid enough not to notice the door didn't "click" shut.  And .. Alexander Kirk didn't actually lock the door on the way out .... otherwise the door would have still been locked.  That's kind of stupid too.

Aram picks the time when Tom calls from Cuba to start questioning him about the fake funeral -- that's not quite as bad as playing 20 questions while trying to disarm a ticking bomb, but it's in the same vein of stupidity.  Tom comes clean to Aram that he knew at the funeral and Agnes' christening.  

How did Lizzie get Agnes to shut up by that wood pile ?  Pleading with Kirk's hired killer because she might be a mom, was just bad.

It turns out Tom MacGyvered a low-frequency FM transmitter out of some shitty wiring in the trunk of an very old car -- whatever.

Why is it that the area near Alexander Kirk's Cuban residence, complete with floatplane, looks a lot like upper New York state ?

Still have no idea who that woman was that Esteban was interrogating, left locked in his basement prison and was subsequently released when Ressler dropped a dime on Esteban.  Are we supposed to know who she is from a previous episode -- or is the beginning of the run-up to the spin-off ?

Mr. Kaplan appears to have redeemed herself by rescuing Agnes.  Appears.

Aram guilting Navabi was just lame.

And then the Dodge sedan comes screaming through the woods and slams into Red's car -- it is just hilariously bad.  The road that Red and crew are driving on appears to be a smooth paved road, but it looks like they are driving on a dirt road.  And the blue Dodge is coming screaming out of the woods -- how the hell did Dembe not spot this ?  

Red, Dembe and Mr. Kaplan are knocked unconscious, and Kirk's henchman grabs Agnes -- why doesn't he pump a couple of bullets into Red and Mr. Kaplan ?  Seriously, why not ?  Was he out of bullets ?  How about a knife -- since they are all unconscious ?  Mr. Kaplan wakes up to see Agnes abducted .... again.  Is Agnes going to have brain damage -- or at least a concussion ?  How come we didn't see Dembe in the car wreck ?  Was he thrown clear ?

Is this what this season is going to turn into -- a regular game of hot potato with Agnes, with her being stolen back and forth between sides ?
So instead of Lizzie being kidnapped every week now it will be Agnes being kidnapped every week ?

Edited September 24, 2016 by ottoDbusdriver

[buttersister]

Oy. Can't we have a series following Red (with Dembe and Mr. Kaplan) flipping houses in upstate New York? Agnes could be the star of the staging and her adorableness will sell each house stat.

The rest of them can follow Tom to another show or just get off my TV in general.

[slf]

My problem with this show is that it's very paternalistic where Liz is concerned and treats her like something Red owns. She shouldn't have disobeyed Red, run away from him- if she had stayed put she wouldn't have been captured. And that's all bullshit because doing what Red wanted never kept her very safe. She's been abducted probably ten times now, she's been assaulted, become an outlaw, and ended up in a sham marriage to a spy/thug. Now she has to wait for Red to rescue her because god knows the writers won't have her figure out her own escape.

[Danielg342]

Um...well...uh...okay.

Let me start with the positives:

-Red kicks ass. Red always kicks ass. Red will find ways to kick ass. Red will find ways to kick ass that you didn't think it was possible for him to kick ass in. On this, it's a broken record by now but the writers of this show seem too stuck on Lizzie to realize they've wasted the potential for such a great character in Red.

(Red shooting down the cops at the poker table was pure gold. Pure gold)

-David Zayas. His appearance was too brief, but at least he isn't dead, so I guess he can come back.

-The Hitman (that's how IMDB credits Raoul Trujillo's character) actually did bring a level of menace to his character, even though he didn't do much.

I think that's about it for the positives.

Other things (that may or may not be negatives but likely are):

-Ressler goes alone to Cuba...what could possibly go wrong? At least Ressler rolled his eyes to say "not again", so I guess it's a start the writers are aware they've gone to this well too much, and at least Ressler saved himself.

-Tom and the broken tail light trick. At least it's an older car, so it should work.

-Doesn't make up for this show continuing to have the dumbest police officers ever. Seriously, who responds to a report about a kidnapping by investigating with no backup?

-Fake drama surrounding Liz. I get that she's an American citizen abducted in a foreign country...but I kind of doubt that if the team is miffed that she played them that the team would want to find her, or at least bend over backwards to do so. They could have just as easily said, "oh, CIA is blocking us, we can't do anything" and call it a day (and told Red to STFU).

-Furthermore, why the anger? Wouldn't they be relieved that she's alive?

-Lizzie fails to get herself out of trouble again. This is getting repetitive...and annoying.

Episode Grade: D-. I was tempted to rate this a "F" but James Spader saved the first half of the show for me. Otherwise, it was pretty unmemorable dreck.

[thuganomics85]

OK, seriously, any future bad guys out there?  If you need to kill someone and bury their body, here is a hint.  Just kill them and dig the grave yourself!  How many fucking morons throughout television have gotten themselves killed, because they chose the "Ha!  I will make you dig your own grave, because I'm either lazy or just on a big power trip!!!" method to it.  I can't think of a single time where that ended will for any of them.  So, of course Tom was going to dispatch that fool like nothing.  Idiot.

The episode at least started out pretty good, with Red just going on a warpath and James Spader was awesome as always.  Also fun seeing David Zayas briefly.  And, hey, they didn't even waste Paul Calderon as Esteban, which is refreshing to some of the past Blacklisters.  But in the end, they still failed to get Lizzie, so this thing is probably going to drag out forever, right?  I would have at least cared if it was Agnes, but I really am not all that invested on them ever finding Lizzie.  Mainly because I just don't care that much about the character, but also because nothing bad is going to happen to her.  No suspense whatsoever.

Ressler was the only FBI agent that actually did anything, while Harold was regulated to inspirational speeches, Aram frets over Lizzie, and Samar really, really hates Lizzie for the whole faking death thing.  Whatever.

I'm sure Red will forgive Mrs. Kaplan eventually, I just hope it isn't after he sacrifices herself or something.

Looking forward to another season of "James Spader almost single-handily elevates mediocre material!"

Edited September 23, 2016 by thuganomics85

[Danielg342]

Why do I get the feeling that if The Blacklist was on HBO it'd be so much better?

[Margherita Erdman]

Confusing & disappointing. Remember when this was so much fun, at the beginning? And then it was a little less fun but still worth watching as long as Spader was on the screen. I'm not sure that's even true any more.

Back to streaming Nordic noir for me I think.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

10 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Red, Dembe and Mr. Kaplan are knocked unconscious, and Kirk's henchman grabs Agnes -- why doesn't he pump a couple of bullets into Red and Mr. Kaplan ?  Seriously, why not ?  Was he out of bullets ?  How about a knife -- since they are all unconscious ?

He also didn't shoot Dembe when he had the chance, after tussling with him on the staircase.

 

10 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Is Agnes going to have brain damage -- or at least a concussion ?

Yeah-it's a good thing they found her car seat and properly installed it-otherwise she would have been catapulted through the rear window and Grandpa would have been mad.

How come Elizabeth never said to Kirk: "I shot you when I was 4.  Show me the bullet hole?"

[slf]

7 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

Why do I get the feeling that if The Blacklist was on HBO it'd be so much better?

These writers combined with the HBO execs? Nah, we'd just get a bunch of unnecessary tit shots and a whole lot more murders.

The material never gets better because these writers/showrunners aren't capable of it. They were able to come up with one cool character and that's where they peaked.

[Primetimer]

And that's good news for almost everyone…um…not so fast, Liz.

View the full article

[ItCouldBeWorse]

From the WSJ review:

Quote

It is also worth noting that the timeline for the episode was all messed up as Ressler’s story (fly to Cuba, get nabbed by Esteban’s men, meet with Esteban, liaise with Red, and then rat Esteban out to the Cuban government) would have taken a couple of days, but the rest of the episode appeared to only take a few hours. Let’s not forget that Tom was in the trunk of the car for basically the entire episode. The timing just does not make sense.

[saber5055]

Wow, so much word to all the posts here. Hearts for all of you, since this site won't let me "like" anything. So I can see Kurk wanting to steal "Masha" since he's her pop, but what's up with the Task Force getting all up into it? Lizzie is NOT "Agent Keene" and hasn't been since she killed the AG and went rouge. Or are they trying to bring her back to USA for faking her death and p*ssing them off by playing them. Or maybe Tom got a huge life insurance settlement when she "died" and government wants that back? And why did Agnes keep getting captured separately? And, for god's sake, did anyone even TRY to feed the kid during all those days? She would have been pitching a hissy the entire time. Forget the "timing" on this episode, pretty much nothing made sense to me. Although Spader did rock, as always. And there is Mr. Kaplan love, and Dembe, of course. Otherwise ... meh. Looking forward to a Blacklist House Flip in Upper NY State spinoff!

[saber5055]

Because I cannot edit posts: I meant Lizzie went "rogue" not "rouge," although I guess Lizzie going "red" still works in the context. Also, props to Agnes for not getting on speck of dirt on her during all that being tossed around. She has the same wardrobe manager as Helen Hunt in "Twister!"

[Dowel Jones]

13 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

Tom and the broken tail light trick. At least it's an older car, so it should work.

Which was magically fixed when Red drove up behind the car at the estate.  I know the Cubans have made an entire industry out of keeping their old cars afloat, but I want those repair guys.

A bandaid strong enough to hold a metal door lock open, and you're going to use that on your infant daughter?

Strongest henchpeople ever.  Girl takes a beating on her head from a log, but just jumps right back up.  Liz could have grabbed the knife and killed her right there, but that would have robbed Mr. Kaplan of her chance at redemption.  And Tom?  The henchdude who pulled you out of the trunk fired one shot from his shotgun, and then fired another during the fight scene.  It was a side-by-side piece, which meant it was empty when he put it up to your head as the car was leaving.  Just a thought.

13 hours ago, Danielg342 said:

the dumbest police officers ever.

Not to mention letting the suspects walk up close to you.  Put everybody on the ground, face down.  Unlock the trunk yourself.

So, even admitting that Kirk is one screwed up guy, what is his purpose in running away with Liz?  It's not like he can regress back 20 years and try to raise her as his own.  In fact, if he would just watch the first two seasons, he'd be running away from her right now.

[morgankobi]

I think he may want her for blood transfusions, or something, since that disorder ("good," ha!) has been anvil-ed around a bit.

[milkyaqua]

And then Kirk finds out Lizzie nor Agnes' blood matches and then we're back to the stupid question of who actually is Lizzie's father (as if I care at this point).

I hope Mr. Kaplan survives Red.  I don't get Samar being all butt-hurt about Lizzie being alive.  It's not like she killed her dog (speaking of dogs....).

James Spader was the usual saving grace for this episode but if they don't hurry up and resolve this captured Liz nonsense I don't know if I'm going to bother watching it (at least not regularly).  They need to get back to working actual cases and finding bad guys that don't have to do with folks kidnapping Liz because she's really not that interesting.

[dwmarch]

Well that sucked.

Tom almost escapes but is captured again... almost escapes but is captured again... I sure hope we're not planning a spinoff series in which he will be the lead character.

Lizzie on the other hand was almost useful but somehow managed to forget she was on an island where she has no friends at all and no means of escape. Escaping the house to the yard isn't really an escape. Lizzie should have realized that Kirk wanted to trust her and should have taken advantage of him that way.

I do think Red should be thanking Mr. Kaplan up and down. When Red thought Lizzie was dead he had to take stock of everything and figure out who and what he was. Kaplan did him a favor.

Ressler was actually useful? And he didn't blow his mission by being his charming block of wood self? What show am I watching?

I am sad for that one honest Cuban cop who was... wait... did he actually end up dead or did he just get dropped off and forgotten as if he was a canine of the Keen family?

[ottoDbusdriver]

6 hours ago, milkyaqua said:

I hope Mr. Kaplan survives Red.  I don't get Samar being all butt-hurt about Lizzie being alive.  It's not like she killed her dog (speaking of dogs....).

James Spader was the usual saving grace for this episode but if they don't hurry up and resolve this captured Liz nonsense I don't know if I'm going to bother watching it (at least not regularly).  They need to get back to working actual cases and finding bad guys that don't have to do with folks kidnapping Liz because she's really not that interesting.

We are now into Season 4, and still no sign of Tom/Lizzie's 2 (that's right, 2) neglected dogs.

4 hours ago, dwmarch said:

Well that sucked.

Tom almost escapes but is captured again... almost escapes but is captured again... I sure hope we're not planning a spinoff series in which he will be the lead character.

It did kind of suck.

And if Tom getting captured all the time (a la Lizzie from most of S1 and S2) is going to be the premise for the spinoff, it's going to get old fast.

[anarchyangel84]

Well I wouldn't call the premiere bad- but I wouldn't call it good either. 

There were some parts that made me laugh they were so predictable. 

I didn't need to watch the scenes with Tom to know that nothing was going to happen to him. I really, REALLY wish they'd just kill him already. I don't like him at all & don't get why others do. I also hate that Liz & Tom want to get away from Red so bad- till they need their asses saved. Then they're all about him helping. That's starting to get old. Without Red, Liz would've been dead a long time ago. What's the harm in spending some time with him a few times a year? I don't blame Samar for being hurt & angry about the situation. I mean, they did everything to save her before even risking their own lives. Liz just takes & takes from the people who care about her. But this is nothing new- it began last season. 

I'm guessing that Kaplan won't survive. I feel bad- I really like her. But he can't trust her now & I think he'll kill her. I hope I'm wrong & he just tell her to leave.  

I am glad it's back on & it was great to see Dembe. I like Dembe. 

I'm anxious to see where this story is going, who Kirk is, & what happens when Red does get Liz back. 

[Texasmom1970]

This episode was just kind of meh for me. Did like Aram speaking his mind to Samar, glad to see him being outspoken. 

Loved seeing Mr. Kaplan and Dembe, but I do like it better with they are working nicely together not the crud about them feeling betrayed over what Mr. Kaplan did to help Liz. 

Loved the oh hell face Ressler made right before they put the bag over his head!

[mandigirl]

Quote

My problem with this show is that it's very paternalistic where Liz is concerned and treats her like something Red owns.

This has been the problem with the show for awhile. Liz was initially written as very resourceful-- now she's relegated to a pawn that some man must save. Whether its Red, Ressler, Tom, Harold, or in this case, all four, who must save her, she's in permanent damsel in distress. It's really sad because while I don't like the character, at least she was more than just something to be shuffled from man to man when this show started. 

For the pluses-- Tom was looking great this episode, Dembe was allowed to have a few lines and--

Quote

Did like Aram speaking his mind to Samar, glad to see him being outspoken. 

Ditto. 

Edited September 25, 2016 by mandigirl

[chrisvee]

Red holding Agnes was the only enjoyable part of the episode.

i cannot watch baby in danger all season it's too depressing. At least let Red have the kid!

[Dowel Jones]

11 hours ago, mandigirl said:

she's in permanent damsel in distress.

Oh, God, if they tie her to a railroad track in some future episode, I'm done. 

[slf]

On 9/24/2016 at 4:22 PM, anarchyangel84 said:

I also hate that Liz & Tom want to get away from Red so bad- till they need their asses saved. Then they're all about him helping. That's starting to get old. Without Red, Liz would've been dead a long time ago. What's the harm in spending some time with him a few times a year? I don't blame Samar for being hurt & angry about the situation. I mean, they did everything to save her before even risking their own lives. Liz just takes & takes from the people who care about her. But this is nothing new- it began last season.

Why shouldn't she want to get away from Red? I mean, I like him well enough - well, I like Spader as Red which isn't quite the same thing, but Red is the world renowned "concierge of crime". He's brokered deals for terrorists, weapons dealers, murderers, etc. He's not the kind of guy Liz would've become friends with prior to the series premiere. He spied on her, did nothing beyond drop cryptic warnings about her husband and position her refusal to accept his word on blind faith as a failure on her part. Remember when he told her that it was up to her to see that what he was saying about Tom was true while refusing to just come out and tell her that he hired Tom to spy on her? He allowed her to go home to a violent criminal, to sleep with him and plan an adoption with him rather than give her the truth because he didn't want her to hate him, he wanted to control her feelings and responses as much as he could. He's been vague about her past from the first episode while maneuvering her into dangerous situations, situations that have almost got her killed. He's refused to give her the information she needs to make reasonable and intelligent decisions regarding her own safety and then tsks tsks her when she makes a bad one he has to 'save her ass'. 

I'd want away from him too. Liz has to be written as a moron to make Red look good (which is why I don't care for Red much as a character: he's not that well written) and keep the "suspense" w/r/t their relationship/connection alive. Frankly, I'm tired of seeing a lead female character who started out with such potential be reduced to a plot device. 

On 9/24/2016 at 4:22 PM, anarchyangel84 said:

I'm guessing that Kaplan won't survive. I feel bad- I really like her. But he can't trust her now & I think he'll kill her. I hope I'm wrong & he just tell her to leave.  

Deadass if Red kills Kaplan I'll stop watching the show. She's far more interesting than most of the characters on this show.

17 hours ago, mandigirl said:

This has been the problem with the show for awhile. Liz was initially written as very resourceful-- now she's relegated to a pawn that some man must save. Whether its Red, Ressler, Tom, Harold, or in this case, all four, who must save her, she's in permanent damsel in distress. It's really sad because while I don't like the character, at least she was more than just something to be shuffled from man to man when this show started. 

Agreed. The potential Liz had in the beginning was one of the things that got me to watch the show even though I didn't especially care for her. Now I just cringe at what they've reduced her to.

This episode was the third lowest rated ep of the series with only 6.40 million.

Edited September 25, 2016 by slf

[Mrs OldManBalls]

On 9/23/2016 at 9:10 AM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

How come Elizabeth never said to Kirk: "I shot you when I was 4.  Show me the bullet hole?"

They need something for Nov. Sweeps. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

Maybe Mr. Kaplan can move to the spin-off.  She'll babysit Agnes off-camera so that there are no more baby-in-distress appearances on either show.  We know she's good at cleaning up, so messy diapers won't phase her.

[anarchyangel84]

On September 25, 2016 at 7:22 PM, slf said:

Why shouldn't she want to get away from Red? I mean, I like him well enough - well, I like Spader as Red which isn't quite the same thing, but Red is the world renowned "concierge of crime". He's brokered deals for terrorists, weapons dealers, murderers, etc. He's not the kind of guy Liz would've become friends with prior to the series premiere. He spied on her, did nothing beyond drop cryptic warnings about her husband and position her refusal to accept his word on blind faith as a failure on her part. Remember when he told her that it was up to her to see that what he was saying about Tom was true while refusing to just come out and tell her that he hired Tom to spy on her? He allowed her to go home to a violent criminal, to sleep with him and plan an adoption with him rather than give her the truth because he didn't want her to hate him, he wanted to control her feelings and responses as much as he could. He's been vague about her past from the first episode while maneuvering her into dangerous situations, situations that have almost got her killed. He's refused to give her the information she needs to make reasonable and intelligent decisions regarding her own safety and then tsks tsks her when she makes a bad one he has to 'save her ass'. 

I'd want away from him too. Liz has to be written as a moron to make Red look good (which is why I don't care for Red much as a character: he's not that well written) and keep the "suspense" w/r/t their relationship/connection alive. Frankly, I'm tired of seeing a lead female character who started out with such potential be reduced to a plot device. 

Deadass if Red kills Kaplan I'll stop watching the show. She's far more interesting than most of the characters on this show.

He didn't hire Tom to "spy" on Liz- he didn't need to. He hired him to make sure she was ok. I admit- there are a lot of things Red has done to put Liz in danger. Red was/is not the only criminal in Liz's life. It was only a matter of time for someone to figure out who her Mom was and go after her. Or for someone to find out that she's the only thing Red really cares about- and killed her to get to him. I know there's a lot of things he's done that has put her in more danger. This didn't start when Red hired Tom or when Red turned himself in that first episode. It started the night of the fire.

Red is a criminal- he is a bad guy. My biggest issue isn't her trying to get away from him. It's that she uses him when she needs him- then treats him like crap when she doesn't. That's what she seems to do though, she seems to be fine with other people risking their lives for her without any appreciation. Look at the task force. 

In Red's world, I don't know how he lets Kaplan live when she went behind his back with something that big. He can't trust her & without trust, she's (again, in Red's world) useless. I like her too- I hope that he realizes that she was only trying to do what was best for Liz & Agnes & lets her walk away.

[jamblastx]

  On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 0:19 AM, Danielg342 said:

Tom and the broken tail light trick. At least it's an older car, so it should work.

Which was magically fixed when Red drove up behind the car at the estate.  I know the Cubans have made an entire industry out of keeping their old cars afloat, but I want those repair guys.

A bandaid strong enough to hold a metal door lock open, and you're going to use that on your infant daughter?

Strongest henchpeople ever.  Girl takes a beating on her head from a log, but just jumps right back up.  Liz could have grabbed the knife and killed her right there, but that would have robbed Mr. Kaplan of her chance at redemption.  And Tom?  The henchdude who pulled you out of the trunk fired one shot from his shotgun, and then fired another during the fight scene.  It was a side-by-side piece, which meant it was empty when he put it up to your head as the car was leaving.  Just a thought.

  On ‎9‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 0:19 AM, Danielg342 said:

the dumbest police officers ever.

Not to mention letting the suspects walk up close to you.  Put everybody on the ground, face down.  Unlock the trunk yourself.

So, even admitting that Kirk is one screwed up guy, what is his purpose in running away with Liz?  It's not like he can regress back 20 years and try to raise her as his own.  In fact, if he would just watch the first two seasons, he'd be running away from her right now.

It was killing me that the producers were so lazy in procuring an older car. The embargo started around 1960 and no new American cars were able to be sold there at that time which is why there are still a bunch of American cars from the 50's there. It doesn't explain why Tom is in the trunk of a 1967 Dodge Polara and it's not as if it would be difficult to get ANY American car from the 50's instead.

[Ottis]

I keep thinking about all the cool things Red could be doing if he weren't chasing Lizzie and Agnes all the time. So disappointing. 

During the summer, EW had a brief Q&A with a show runner/producer who talked about how upset fans were that Lizzie was killed. Who? Who was upset? Anyone? This show is so much better without her. 

[slf]

20 hours ago, anarchyangel84 said:

He didn't hire Tom to "spy" on Liz- he didn't need to. He hired him to make sure she was ok.

That's splitting hairs a bit and really doesn't have any bearing on my point. He put Tom in Liz's life and refused to admit to that in the beginning and allowed Tom, a dangerous criminal, to remain in Liz's life when he could've put an end to it in the first episode. A lot of bad things happened to Liz because Red let them. 

20 hours ago, anarchyangel84 said:

Red was/is not the only criminal in Liz's life. It was only a matter of time for someone to figure out who her Mom was and go after her. Or for someone to find out that she's the only thing Red really cares about- and killed her to get to him. I know there's a lot of things he's done that has put her in more danger. This didn't start when Red hired Tom or when Red turned himself in that first episode. It started the night of the fire.

Yes, but Liz wasn't aware of any of that until Red allowed her to be. He's withheld important information time and time again, which isn't his place, and tsk tsk'd Liz for not making the right/smart choice when she did not have the information necessary to make the right/smart choice. Other people being a threat to her does not make Red withholding information so he can control her okay. 

20 hours ago, anarchyangel84 said:

It's that she uses him when she needs him- then treats him like crap when she doesn't. That's what she seems to do though, she seems to be fine with other people risking their lives for her without any appreciation. Look at the task force. 

Why is it a bad thing that she uses a man you describe as a "bad guy"? Red isn't her friend or family, as far as we know. What he is is manipulative and a liar. It's Liz's job to sort out her life, whatever she wants her life to be, and if she decides she doesn't want it to involve the man who knows everything but still - even after she's almost died for all of this a half dozen times, even after she's risked her life to save his - still won't do her the courtesy of telling her what's going on, or who he is to her, than I think that's fine. If she uses him to get herself out of situations he's helped put her I think that's fine. Frankly, I'd consider Liz an idiot if she didn't use Red when she needed to; he owes her a lot. As for her treating him like crap, eh. The "we're over and I'm never talking to you again" happened way too much and I don't know what the writers were going for. But I don't see how she owes him appreciation for helping to get her out of situations he's helped put her in or at least might've helped prevent from happening had he disclosed what he knew.

As for the task force, also eh. I doubt the show will have any of them remember just how much Red has yanked her around, to say nothing of all the other danger she's in, and realize she had valid reasons for faking her death but that doesn't change the fact that she did. I don't see how that's using them and treating them like crap; it's certainly unfortunate that her life got to the point where it honestly seemed to her the best choice she could make, but it's not like she did this for shits and giggles. 

[schnauzergirl]

Most interesting Blacklist character: Mr. Kaplan.  

[Notwisconsin]

Wait a sec....didn't Lizzie DIE in the season finale? I had this show listed for scheduled recordings on my DVR. What the hell just happened?