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JonBenét: An American Murder Mystery (Investigation Discovery)

Tara Ariano

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Guest

Guest

Don't lead with a piano cue on the soundtrack that, if it isn't the same one as Hoarders, sounds so similar that it induces giggling.

OMG! That's why it sounded so familiar! It is nearly identical to the Hoarders mournful piano tinkling.

After they teased that interview with John Mark Carr in the beginning and showed his face, I gasped out loud -- and was haunted by his image throughout watching the show. Holy Christ on a cracker -- he looks like a ghoul! Where is he getting all that money for all that god awful plastic surgery?

That being said, I can't believe this show is going there with him. The guy is no more guilty of killing JonBenet than the Easter Bunny and he shouldn't be discussed in any serious way when examining this case.  I have no interest in what he has to say at all since he wasn't even in Boulder when the crime was committed. And I laughed out loud when Diane Diamond talked about covering the case for Hard Copy like it was some upstanding journalistic endeavor -- the show was just as sleazy as A Current Affair and Geraldo. (That said, the 90s had great tabloid television, I miss those days.)

Haven't watched the ID channel in a couple years because I couldn't take their shitty reenactments. I see that hasn't changed. (My favorite was the guy they had playing Gary Coleman who looked to be a six-foot tall, 50-year old Asian man.)

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Infie

Infie

John Douglas revisits the case in Law and Disorder, and provides more information than I remember reading in The Cases That Haunt Us (though it's been a few years since I read that one and it's only been a few weeks since I read the first one). After reading the sections from the books, I find it hard to get into the TV coverage because so much of it seems trite and exploitational, trying to keep everything sensational and shocking. It drives me crazy because it makes everything entertainment and loses track of the tragedy here.

Once upon a time it was "one death is a tragedy", now it seems that it's really "one death is a spectacle".

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GaT

GaT

At this point, I am so confused by all the clues & suspects, I can't follow what they're telling us.

When they were talking about the Santa Claus guy with the creepy note, all I could think about was that Santa would b wearing gloves & wouldn't leave any fingerprints anywhere.

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Guest

Guest

This show is a hot mess. It seems the narrative of this one is "throw all the shit against the wall and maybe something will stick." Santa seemed hella creepy but, if they want us to believe an intruder theory, how was that guy spry enough to make his way into that window? 

The junkyard gumshoe sure did think he solved the mystery though. Who was he?

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editorgrrl

editorgrrl

(edited)
6 hours ago, Giant Misfit said:

The junkyard gumshoe sure did think he solved the mystery though. Who was he?

Michael Helgoth, 26, worked at his parents' auto salvage yard on the outskirts of town and died of a gunshot wound to the head in January 1997—two days after the DA announced that the list of suspects had narrowed. His former employee, John Kenady, says Helgoth and an accomplice killed JonBenet Ramsey.

Edited by editorgrrl
What's a "headshot would"?
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Vivigirl10

Vivigirl10

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I just can't with that Michelle Wood. 

The whole thing wasn't that great but she pushed it to the point where I almost couldn't keep watching.  In the police interview, when Patsy says she didn't murder JonBenet, Michelle responds, "when someone gets defensive, it can be assumed they are guilty"....to paraphrase.  Geesh lady, or maybe they're just really frustrated because they didn't actually do what they are being accused of?  She was totally useless and sounded like an idiot.

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walnutqueen

walnutqueen

1 hour ago, Kiki620 said:

The whole thing wasn't that great but she pushed it to the point where I almost couldn't keep watching.  In the police interview, when Patsy says she didn't murder JonBenet, Michelle responds, "when someone gets defensive, it can be assumed they are guilty"....to paraphrase.  Geesh lady, or maybe they're just really frustrated because they didn't actually do what they are being accused of?  She was totally useless and sounded like an idiot.

^^^ This.  Especially since the cop was totally lying about having physical evidence that proved Patsy did it.  Wood also made some remarks about "typical pageant queen" that I found ironic, coming from a typical famewhore.  ;-)

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lrobinl

lrobinl

Another "reddit herring": the fact that Patsy had on the same clothes from the night before. They hammered away at that, as if it really means something. I can't count the number of times I have gone to bed late, dropped my clothes on the floor, and gotten up early and thrown on the same stuff just to run downstairs to perform household chores. She still had laundry and packing to sort through before dawn...was she supposed to jump in the shower and do full hair and makeup, then finish packing? Foolish that so many involved harped on that and think it points to her guilt.

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Guest

Guest

Thanks, editorgrrl. 

While Helgoth was particularly loathsome, I don't see someone as basic as him staging anything so intricate as this crime. With the junkyard gumshoe's theory, I'm supposed to believe he and some unnamed partner planned this crime but neglected to bring with them any instruments they needed for it -- including a rambling ransom note, the murder weapon, and the suitcase they were gonna stuff her body into to cart her out of the house. That's why the intruder theory never made sense to me -- one would have to suspect that this intruder was going into the house to do, what exactly? Sexually assault JonBenet? OK -- well he could have done that and taken off. Did he want to kidnap her? They OK -- just tape her mouth and take her. Did he want to just kill her? OK -- then why two three different ways to do it before settling on the garrote? 

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editorgrrl

editorgrrl

I didn't even make this connection until reading the recap: 

Quote

Helgoth is only marginally interesting to me because of the coincidental parallel with Steven Avery (Helgoth lived in a trailer on the family car lot).

And this screencap of "Santa Bill" is the stuff of nightmares:

2016-09-14-amm-santa.jpg

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withanaich

withanaich

I'm thinking I may have to watch this show, if only to know what the hell y'all are talking about. I have no idea what this pineapple business is, but it's driving me crazy hearing about it. I was only in my teens when JonBenet died and for some reason, got burned out on hearing about this case almost instantly. That rabid lack of interest has stuck with me over the years, but I'm one of those people who watches I.D. incessantly, so maybe I should just dive in here?

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GaT

GaT

7 minutes ago, withanaich said:

I'm thinking I may have to watch this show, if only to know what the hell y'all are talking about. I have no idea what this pineapple business is, but it's driving me crazy hearing about it.

According to the Ramseys, JonBenet went right to bed when they got home, but fresh pineapple was found in her stomach, & there was a bowl of pineapple in the kitchen & it had Patsy & Burke's fingerprints on it, but everyone denies feeding her pineapple, so who did?

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TattleTeeny

TattleTeeny

Yeah! I personally find it odd for myself but who the hell knows what other people do (and I do put on the same jeans two days in a row, now that I think about it)? Weren't they about to get on a plane anyway? This family was generally unknown to the country at large before this happened, so we have no idea if this is something she never did before. And even if they had been well known prior, we still probably wouldn't know that.

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BitterApple

BitterApple

(edited)

I didn't think there was anything nefarious about the same clothing either. The family was scheduled to get up at the crack of dawn to take an early flight. Maybe Patsy didn't want to waste a fresh outfit for a private plane ride where nobody would be seeing them anyways. She clearly cared about grooming, so I doubt the clothes got so dirty and smelly on Christmas they'd be unwearable the following day. 

Edited by BitterApple
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Guest

Guest

I'm Team Parents Did It and don't even believe that the "same clothes" has anything to do with anything. I'm pretty conscious of how I look and dress when I have to be in the company of others, but if there's no one around, I'll be in the same clothes for days. Why waste a good outfit for nothing? It's not like I roll around in dirt and then reuse my clothes. Plus, it was Christmas. She had a Christmas outfit on the day before. It makes sense to recycle particularly if no one else around cares. 

But this show is so sloppy and bad it makes sense they'd focus on something so trivial for so long. 

I really long for the days of American Justice with Bill Kurtis. 

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Sarah D. Bunting

Sarah D. Bunting

These are, for this channel, really pretty good. I've just lost any capacity to tell whether they're compelling to anyone else because I have consumed so many hours of case programming in the last week.

And there's more: The IN CASE OF profilers' podcast *about* this case just dropped tonight. That's Real Crime Profile in case (heh) you want to listen along as well. I'm sure it's been mentioned in that section wanted to note it here.

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TattleTeeny

TattleTeeny

(edited)

One thing that bugged me about this episode (and it has nothing to do with the case) was that, when the narrator was talking about Michael Helgoth, he said something like, "...and the most disturbing thing of all" in reference to M.H. hypothetically musing about cracking a human skull. Hell no, I beg to differ; I'd argue the most disturbing thing from that list of Helgoth's behavior was actually breaking the necks of small animals, thank you! And if that junkyard guy saw M.H. doing that, why the hell did he not stop him and/or quit being friends with the guy?! 

Quote

I'm supposed to believe he and some unnamed partner planned this crime but neglected to bring with them any instruments they needed for it -- including a rambling ransom note, the murder weapon, and the suitcase they were gonna stuff her body into to cart her out of the house.

See, I find this a workable theory. Maybe they wanted to take her in the suitcase (which to me does not look big enough even for a little girl) for the ransom (if junkyard dude is to be believed that Helgoth mentioned a future windfall of cash), used a stun gun (which may have belonged to M.H., per the photo) to keep her quiet, realized they suitcase thing wouldn't work and/or she was waking up, nixed the kidnapping plan, and did the rest. As for the pineapple, I got nothin'--and also nothin' as to why they would not have come with a ransom not already from their own notebook.

ETA: I forgot to add that maybe Michael Helgoth and/or his alleged partner was on that house tour?

Edited by TattleTeeny
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Court

Court

I don't think the clothes are suspicious and I've always thought the parents were involved in some fashion. 

However, in the A&E special, her good friend did say that was unusual and that Patsy was a fashion plate. 

Again, I think it means diddlysquat. 

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TattleTeeny

TattleTeeny

I'm glad other people are dismissing that "OMG big clue!" too, even if we are not of the same opinion as to the perp. I can say though that I have more clothes than I can wear over the course of two months and still I sometimes grab whatever pair of jeans already has a belt in it!

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Guest

Guest

John Mark Karr is a legit deranged freak. One would think he'd have slithered back under his rock after his initial 15 minutes of undeserved and unneeded "fame" had passed. But no! Here comes ID to provide him with more airtime for a crime that he had no more connection to than any of us here. It's outrageous to me they put him back in the spotlight and should be ashamed of themselves for doing so. Then again, one of the featured "experts" on this show was the editor of the National Enquirer so...there's that. 

I'll admit to being transfixed by his bouffant though. 

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Cherrio

Cherrio

I agree with everyone about giving John Karr any attention. I am curious however as to where he lives and how he supports himself.

After all these shows recently, I realize now that this case is really not solvable.  The Boulder police did too much damage. Total incompetence.  Staggering incompetence.

     I did love seeing Beth Karas.   I have respected her work for a long time and miss seeing her on Tv.     I met her once when I happened to be in Phoenix during the Jody Arias trial.

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RedheadZombie

RedheadZombie

13 hours ago, Court said:

I don't think the clothes are suspicious and I've always thought the parents were involved in some fashion. 

However, in the A&E special, her good friend did say that was unusual and that Patsy was a fashion plate. 

Again, I think it means diddlysquat. 

But the good friend obviously only sees Patsy when she's dressed for company, not when she's up at dawn, freshly awake and unshowered.   People who are perfectly put together in public don't rise from bed that way.  

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TattleTeeny

TattleTeeny

(edited)

Could someone wiser than I tell me if there is not some kind of punishment for the JMK's of the world for making uncoerced false confessions and causing all sorts of ruckus and mayhem in the process? I've been rolling this around in my head and I can only come up with partial answers to my own question (and then that thing happened where I'd overthought way too much about it and it all became absolute nonsense even though the answer is probably obvious and I'll soon feel really dumb), mainly that we don't 100% know if he's lying and, because the evidence didn't support his confession, there's was nothing to "get" him on and thus unconstitutional? 

Oh my goodness, what if we find out someday that JMK was friends with Michael Helgoth, haha! It would have been kind of awesome to see the junkyard guy say, "...he had this twitchy little friend with cartoony eyebrows, a thing for polo shirts, and a voice like Sheldon Cooper."

Edited by TattleTeeny
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BitterApple

BitterApple

48 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

But the good friend obviously only sees Patsy when she's dressed for company, not when she's up at dawn, freshly awake and unshowered.   People who are perfectly put together in public don't rise from bed that way.  

Exactly and in general Christmas is an exhausting time for women. We're usually the ones doing the shopping, organizing the dinners, sending the cards, wrapping the gifts etc. The family had been out all day, went to bed late and would've had little sleep when they got up to take their flight. Those sort of circumstances wouldn't have been an unreasonable time for Patsy to say "screw it" and throw on the same outfit, even if she was normally a fashion plate.

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Fable

Fable

(edited)
9 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

But the good friend obviously only sees Patsy when she's dressed for company, not when she's up at dawn, freshly awake and unshowered.   People who are perfectly put together in public don't rise from bed that way.  

No, they usually keep their pajamas on and don't get dressed at all until they need to.  

Edited by Fable
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TattleTeeny

TattleTeeny

Quote

No, they usually keep their pajamas on and don't get dressed at all until they need to. 

Well, I have no great love for Patsy Ramsey, but to be fair, we don't know what "they usually" do if we don't personally know the "they" in question. 

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Whimsy

Whimsy

IMO, he was so upset to be out of the limelight (despite his BS claims) that he is now concocting this new story about an accomplice with him as the actual murderer.  And his "slip" about it being someone in the pageant world was so eye-roll worthy.  He is a creepy, creepy man.  I hope he got castrated a really long time ago because my blood runs cold when I think about him just being free out there with other little girls.

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glowlights

glowlights

On 9/15/2016 at 11:07 AM, TattleTeeny said:

Could someone wiser than I tell me if there is not some kind of punishment for the JMK's of the world for making uncoerced false confessions and causing all sorts of ruckus and mayhem in the process?

How about making a false statement to police and obstruction of justice? For starters. I'm mad he wasn't charged with anything but the DA's office was so embarrassed by the whole debacle they probably wanted it to just go away. Why was that DA so cozy with the Ramseys? Another bible thumper like Smit?

I'm glad they mentioned the issue with the lab that came out with the touch DNA results (reducing the markers to only 4 instead of the forensic standard of 13). But it got buried with Karr's bullshit when it should have been highlighted imo.

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Unclejosh

Unclejosh

I have only watched Part 1 so far and this is the first documentary or show I have seen on this case. I was generally aware of it but never got into the depths like I did with say OJ or West Memphis 3.  It is way more interesting and weird than I remembered from 20 years ago.

 

Can anyone recommend any other documentaries or programs that are on par or better than this one?

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RedheadZombie

RedheadZombie

I was stunned, and I'm not being hyperbolic, that this show broadcast a pedophile's description of a seduction of a six year old "lover".  I don't care if it was fantasy, he presented it as fact. I honestly don't see the difference between this moment and pedophilic literature.  And while I don't really believe JMK was involved in the crime, how did this creepy teacher in Thailand have inside knowledge of some of the details?  

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TattleTeeny

TattleTeeny

(edited)
Quote

I think the OP used "they" as a collective term. 

Oh, I know--me too. Any "they," including these theys--haha, fun with pronouns!

 

Quote

Can anyone recommend any other documentaries or programs that are on par or better than this one?

Honestly, they all are pretty similar even when there's a biased slant. I liked the Lou Smit one but I don't recall what network showed it.

Edited by TattleTeeny
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