Lorelai Gilmore: The 10(+) Things I Hate About You

[TwirlyGirly]

For those of us not fond of Lorelai Gilmore, to discuss her personality flaws, poor decision making ability, lousy communication skills, inflated ego, etc. FTR, I love the show, but I can't stand Lorelai. Feel free to mention specific incidents from any episodes which support your POV.

I'll get the ball rolling with the baptism of Sookie's children from "Always a Godmother, Never a God" (S6/E4) - an episode which causes my blood pressure to rise every time I see it. I get that Lorelai wants to know why Sookie had Rory's new number and she did not. But you do not interrupt the baptism of your so-called best friend's children by insisting on a tête-à-tête with your daughter in the middle of the service - and then proceeding to walk out. Like this particular discussion couldn't take place 30 minutes later, after the service was over?

What really confounds me is why people allow Lorelai to get away with these types of behaviors over and over again, confirming her belief the world revolves around Lorelai, and HER dramas, wants and needs take priority over everyone else's.

Edited September 10, 2016 by TwirlyGirly

[AllyB]

I thought her behaviour at Fran's funeral was even worse than at the baptism. I get that she and Sookie have wanted to buy the Dragonfly for nearly two years at this point. And Fran's death has brought her one and only opportunity to realise her dream. But during her funeral ceremony is not the time to aggressively pursue the purchase. If I had been Fran's heir, her blatant disrespect for Fran's well planned goodbye to her life would have made me decide to either not sell to her or to only sell to her for a vastly inflated price (as she clearly desperately wanted my particular property).

 

But her worst behaviour of all was how she treated Rory in the aftermath of her decision to not marry Max. It's ok to not explain your change of heart to your best friend until you are ready to talk to her. But contrary to her assertion to Emily, Rory is not her best friend first, she is her daughter first and Lorelai had responsibilities as a mother. She chose to start a relationship with her daughter's teacher, then decided to marry him and make him Rory's step-father (something Rory was looking forward to). Her primary duty in the end of her relationship with Max was to help Rory through any pain and confusion that would be causing her. Waking Rory up to run away in the middle of the night and then refusing to answer any of her questions was appalling parenting. It's ok to be best friends with your kid, but only if you take care of their needs as your child first.

[elang4]

37 minutes ago, AllyB said:

I thought her behaviour at Fran's funeral was even worse than at the baptism. I get that she and Sookie have wanted to buy the Dragonfly for nearly two years at this point. And Fran's death has brought her one and only opportunity to realise her dream. But during her funeral ceremony is not the time to aggressively pursue the purchase. If I had been Fran's heir, her blatant disrespect for Fran's well planned goodbye to her life would have made me decide to either not sell to her or to only sell to her for a vastly inflated price (as she clearly desperately wanted my particular property).

 

But her worst behaviour of all was how she treated Rory in the aftermath of her decision to not marry Max. It's ok to not explain your change of heart to your best friend until you are ready to talk to her. But contrary to her assertion to Emily, Rory is not her best friend first, she is her daughter first and Lorelai had responsibilities as a mother. She chose to start a relationship with her daughter's teacher, then decided to marry him and make him Rory's step-father (something Rory was looking forward to). Her primary duty in the end of her relationship with Max was to help Rory through any pain and confusion that would be causing her. Waking Rory up to run away in the middle of the night and then refusing to answer any of her questions was appalling parenting. It's ok to be best friends with your kid, but only if you take care of their needs as your child first.

I agree. And she refused to talk about when Rory just wanted to understand. I'm glad they had that sweet moment between Rory and Max afterwards. We needed that. :)

[Sweet Tee]

Quote

But her worst behaviour of all was how she treated Rory in the aftermath of her decision to not marry Max. It's ok to not explain your change of heart to your best friend until you are ready to talk to her. But contrary to her assertion to Emily, Rory is not her best friend first, she is her daughter first and Lorelai had responsibilities as a mother. She chose to start a relationship with her daughter's teacher, then decided to marry him and make him Rory's step-father (something Rory was looking forward to). Her primary duty in the end of her relationship with Max was to help Rory through any pain and confusion that would be causing her. Waking Rory up to run away in the middle of the night and then refusing to answer any of her questions was appalling parenting. It's ok to be best friends with your kid, but only if you take care of their needs as your child first.

Well said.  She was practically yelling at Rory when she tried to talk to her about it.  Lorelai was a grown woman and her teenage daughter was behaving far more maturely in that situation.  That episode has always bothered me.

[33kaitykaity]

Thank you for this thread.  

Another incident that enrages me at Lorelai is her drunken "toast" at Lane and Zach's reception.  Lorelai's narcissism was on full display.  

[timimouse]

It's so funny that you created this thread now as i was just gearing up to post a Lorelai rant in the UO thread...

Firstly, I actually really like Lorelai. It's just that at times her overreactions to certain situations bother me. The two incidents that pushed me to want to post here happened in episodes I recently watched.

1) Her confrontation with Luke after the accident with Jess and Rory. I understand being worried about your child, but she was RUDE to everyone she encountered that night. She was truly the epitome of Emily Gilmore - from the way she treated the nurse and doctor at the hospital to the way she had absolutely no regard for Jess' well-being (he is a child too and she didn't know whether or not he was hurt) to the way she was condescending to Luke. I loved the way Luke responded... totally put her in the place. To make it worse, her apology was NOT an apology! The minute she included the line "but Rory was in the hospital" the apology became null and void. That doesn't excuse your behaviour. If you don't think you were wrong, then don't apologise just for the sake of it. Furthermore, don't go acting all cutesy and think that the slate will magically be wiped clean. 

2) Her confrontation with Richard at Yale. Don't get me wrong, I don't think he was right in tricking Rory into an interview at Yale, but at the same time I can understand why he felt he had to do it that way. Anytime it was even remotely suggested that Rory have any other college besides Harvard in her future (especially Yale) Lorelai would FLIP OUT. Which bugged me to no end. Just because you say "Rory's going to Harvard" doesn't mean it's going to happen. It means that is what you want, but guess what honey, YOU CAN'T CONTROL THAT. Also, anybody who knows anything about applying to college will tell you that nobody applies to only one college. You always have backup and safety schools in the event that you don't get into your top choice or can't afford that school. So it isn't far-fetched to believe that since her top school was Harvard, she would also want to apply to Yale, Princeton, Columbia, Cornell, Brown... any of those. And Lorelai was already 15 before she got pregnant, was always in private schools and in that high academic environment, so I don't think that would've been new information to her. She was just so hell bent on Rory not remotely being a part of her parents world that whenever Rory appeared to enjoy any aspect of it, she was distraught (enjoying the day at the club with Richard, the coming out party, Logan Huntzburger...)

It's times like these I found myself screaming at the TV - "GROW UP WOMAN!"

[junienmomo]

"Top of her class," "best and brightest," yet she got pregnant at fifteen. 

Considering that at age 32-39 she was still acting like a fifteen year old, especially with respect to her parents, I have to wonder how much of having sex, and it being unprotected, was done simply to piss off her parents.

Whether it was stupid, deliberate, or accidental, she owed her daughter better behavior than she showed. 

If I were Rory, looking back on her own conception, the Max debacle, the Christopher weakness, the self-imposed part of the bad relationship with her parents, and more, I would have far less respect for her than Rory did. 

[Smad]

When the show was originally airing I think I liked Lorelai a lot better mainly because I was way younger then. But now as an adult I find it much harder to like her sometimes due to the fact that I grew up where as she didn't. So for me there is nothig charming about someone who behaves like a spoilt child when they are past 30.

The funeral and baptism stuff just really angers me. The fact that she thinks everything is about her even if it has nothing to do with her. She is extremely self-absorbed. Instead of living a full life she compartmentalizes every area of her life. She's entitled yet mocks others who act the same. When people are mad at her she tries to be cute in the hope they forget being mad at her.  She has boundaries and communication issues, neither of which would be bad if she had any kind of will to change and be better in those areas. When she should play the mom card she sometimes comes at it from a best friends angle that is just wrong on many levels.

Just a few things off the top of my head...

[JayInChicago]

I really especially hate the "Dean wouldn't have had an accident!" Part of that car crash episode. When I was 17 my best friend and I got into a car accident with another inexperienced teen driver driving at night. Luckily no one was hurt more than like seat belt bruises and frankly I don't think my friend told his parents--but I can just imagine if his mom had run over to my dad and I was missing yet her slightly injured child was the most important thing and I was Satan incarnate. Teens sometimes don't drive well. Maybe teens shouldn't be allowed to drive or drive at night, but that's another story. If you truly think your favorite teen boy Deanie couldn't get an accident, wtf is wrong with you??!

[moonb]

Mileage varies a lot on Max, Luke and Christopher, but....Lorelai's insistence that nothing major change about her living situation even though she was engaged or married to all three. Especially considering that later on she had the resources to consider moving.  Her deep attachment to her house and life with Rory is understandable, but by season 7, does she not think that a 22-year-old college graduate might want her own place if she ends up living nearby rather than in an untouched bedroom? Again, that's painful for parents, but she didn't even make Max, her fiance, a key.  Or consider making adjustments for Christopher, or give any real thought to moving to a house with more room when she was with Luke.

[twoods]

Love this thread. Like the poster above, on rewatch I am more irritated over Lorelai's narcissism more now than 10 years ago because I am now her age and she acts like a kid half the time. With Sookie she is worse- they are both so entitled and irritating together. I always hated how she was the manager at the Inn yet never seemed to do anything. She would order Michel around, and then run off to coddle Rory or yell at her parents. 

Also, she would always overreact with her parents, especially her throwing a hissy fit about Yale in front of strangers. Or the crappy way she treated Max, then was sulking around as if she wasn't the one who screwed him over. 

Don't even get me started on Fran's funeral...or the way she talked to Dean when him and Rory first started dating- as if she was marking her territory. Or her freak out over a hairline fracture and being so giddy when Christopher finally decided to show up, ignoring the fact that she was a bitch to Luke.

Edited September 11, 2016 by twoods

[junienmomo]

I love/hate this thread.

Love it because there are plenty of things to dislike as well as like about Lorelai, she is far more of an anti-heroine than some Lorelai fans want to admit. Hate it because it will spawn another one of the periodic 'I hate Luke' rants elsewhere on this group. Weirdly, though, it seems to be only Luke that gets that rant, not Sookie nor Rory nor Emily.

Lorelai is deliberately written to be inconsiderate and frequently selfish, and above all immature. It's part of who she is. We're given leave to hate spoiled GiGi, but not supposed to hate analogous behaviors in Lorelai. 

We see her bad behaviors, yet hear repeatedly that she's the best mother ever. Uh, no.

Now we're seeing articles about how strongly feminist she was, but the citations are weak and frequently ignore that some were ironic and there were many more examples of Lorelai being only a typical 'feminist-when-it's-cool' person. Then there's the very large number of anti-feminist moments like slut-shaming, over-simplification of real life issues and passive love relationship scenarios. 

[Spartan Girl]

THANK YOU.

And I'm just going to add the way she treated Luke in the whole span of their relationship. From season 5 through the first half of 6, he kow-tows to all her wants and needs, whether it's moving a TV in his room so he can watch TV when he's trying to sleep or building an extension of her house. He even tries to respect her "tough love" on Rory. He doesn't even pressure her about a wedding date. But the minute things got difficult, when he asked to postpone the wedding until he felt more comfortable with April, she gets all whiny and pouty and passive aggressive. Yes, Luke mishandled things but that doesn't excuse how Lorelei hid from him for several days, and then blind sighted him with her hissy fit ultimatum.

The way she went straight to Christopher afterwards was cruel and unforgivable. You don't screw someone else the same night you break up with your fiancé. 

Lets skip ahead to after the marriage ended, to that drunk serenade. Lorelei publicly tells everyone that it didn't mean anything, and them gets pissy when Luke doesn't respond to it the way she wanted. Hello: you fucked Cheistopher and married him on the rebound!! I think Luke's reluctance to rush back into things is more than a little understandable.

Max was right: Lorelei really was incapable of thinking about someone other than herself for more than five minutes at a time.

[TwirlyGirly]

22 hours ago, AllyB said:

I thought her behaviour at Fran's funeral was even worse than at the baptism. <snip>

But her worst behaviour of all was how she treated Rory in the aftermath of her decision to not marry Max. <snip>

Yes! The feigned sympathy/sadness over the loss of Fran, interspersed with plotting with Sookie about how they could use the situation to their own gain.

Insofar as the breaking off of the engagement, I really think Rory is used to playing second fiddle to her mother's wants and needs. As a matter of fact, it always appeared to me Lorelai usually put Rory first only when she could use Rory to get back at/manipulate others - for example, as mentioned below, Lorelai going overboard with Luke after Rory and Jess's car accident, and the many times she created issues with her parents involving Rory (Rory agreeing to go golfing with Richard, while Lorelai insisted to her parents that was not something Rory wanted to do, and at the same time trying to convince Rory she really didn't want to do it). Or, the situation with Rory's cotillion.

19 hours ago, 33kaitykaity said:

Thank you for this thread.  

Another incident that enrages me at Lorelai is her drunken "toast" at Lane and Zach's reception.  Lorelai's narcissism was on full display.

You're welcome! I needed a place to vent....

Yes, the toast was just another example of Lorelai hijacking an event that was a celebration of a major life event in the lives of her "friends" that she made all about her.

[junienmomo]

43 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

THANK YOU.

And I'm just going to add the way she treated Luke in the whole span of their relationship. From season 5 through the first half of 6, he kow-tows to all her wants and needs, whether it's moving a TV in his room so he can watch TV when he's trying to sleep or building an extension of her house. He even tries to respect her "tough love" on Rory. He doesn't even pressure her about a wedding date. But the minute things got difficult, when he asked to postpone the wedding until he felt more comfortable with April, she gets all whiny and pouty and passive aggressive. Yes, Luke mishandled things but that doesn't excuse how Lorelei hid from him for several days, and then blind sighted him with her hissy fit ultimatum.

The way she went straight to Christopher afterwards was cruel and unforgivable. You don't screw someone else the same night you break up with your fiancé. 

Lets skip ahead to after the marriage ended, to that drunk serenade. Lorelei publicly tells everyone that it didn't mean anything, and them gets pissy when Luke doesn't respond to it the way she wanted. Hello: you fucked Cheistopher and married him on the rebound!! I think Luke's reluctance to rush back into things is more than a little understandable.

Max was right: Lorelei really was incapable of thinking about someone other than herself for more than five minutes at a time.

So much love for this post. 

Related things that bugged me a lot include her lying about seeing Christopher, and even when she has guilt feelings about one rendezvous, she doesn't tell him about the other, letting him think she's sick when's she's hungover from being at another guy's house all night long. She calls Christopher up and invites him to lunch. Another easy stat to remember is how often she did that for Luke - never! Such BS about her being a strong woman here. A strong woman would have said, either before or after, "he's my friend and I'm going. If you've got a problem with it let's talk." But no, Lorelai hides it from him, not expecting he'd ever find out because she has boxed everyone up into their own little 'special relationship with Lorelai' boxes.

Then there are parallel purchases: Twickham House and Paul Anka. He tells her he bought a house, which could easily have been sold to Kirk if they didn't want it any more, and he backs out of the contract when she accidentally discloses that she's thinking about leaving him for a job with Mike Armstrong. Shades of Rachel here. She, however, buys a dog, which is a decade-long commitment, and doesn't tell her fiance´, and has apparently no recollection of any of the times he told her he hates dogs. I didn't see her offering to give the dog up to make him happy.

Then in episode 6.03, The Ungraduate, she babble-browbeats him into taking Paul Anka to his apartment for the night. The dog eats chocolate and Luke moves heaven and earth to have the dog treated, is clearly up most of the night taking care of him. The next morning he tells her the detailed story as part of his question if Paul Anka likes cheddar cheese, and Lorelai sits in bed staring up at him with a dreamy look on her face. Just when I was expecting her to say something sweet like she did when she proposed, she launches into the wedding-date-setting postponement. She completely ignored his sacrifice for her and settles back down into bed. She didn't even answer the question until he asked it again. I'm convinced she didn't listen to a word.

She was an utterly inconsiderate person sometimes.

[TwirlyGirly]

14 hours ago, timimouse said:

It's so funny that you created this thread now as i was just gearing up to post a Lorelai rant in the UO thread...<snip>

1) Her confrontation with Luke after the accident with Jess and Rory.

2) Her confrontation with Richard at Yale. <snip>

It's times like these I found myself screaming at the TV - "GROW UP WOMAN!"

Absolutely. Did she honestly believe had Dean been driving the animal would not have run out in front of the car? Did Dean have the power to prevent that? I don't think so. Her screaming at Luke at what could have happened was so over-the-top as to be ridiculous. I honestly think the reason she over-reacted was because she saw this situation as a way to "prove" to Luke her original assessment of Jess was right. Because Lorelai is never wrong. I think this is also the reason she "creates" contentious situations out of just about everything involving her parents. (Not that her parents are blameless. But Lorelai seems incapable of granting them the benefit of the doubt. Ever.) And, like you, I find myself constantly telling Lorelai to GROW UP. Hasn't helped....

7 hours ago, moonb said:

Mileage varies a lot on Max, Luke and Christopher, but....Lorelai's insistence that nothing major change about her living situation even though she was engaged or married to all three. Especially considering that later on she had the resources to consider moving. <snip>

Agreed. And the whole situation with Luke's grandmother's bedroom furniture was handled so poorly. I don't believe Lorelai ever thinks before she opens her mouth. It would have been SO easy for her, when Luke first showed her the furniture installed in the bedroom, to say "Luke, I appreciate the craftsmanship of this furniture. It really is beautifully made, and I understand because it belonged to your grandmother, it has a lot of meaning to you. But, it really doesn't reflect my personal style at all. To me, it's very dark and heavy and ornate, whereas I prefer a lighter, more basic look. Do you think we can work on a solution that will make us both happy?" But no. Instead she explodes. Now, I realize her explosion was prompted by Luke's reaction to Christopher's call, and I'm not giving him a pass on that. But it's almost as if Lorelai feels like she has to "one up" everyone every time she does something that upsets them, so she comes out on top in the "who hurt who" contest she's always creating.

4 hours ago, junienmomo said:

I love/hate this thread.

Love it because there are plenty of things to dislike as well as like about Lorelai, she is far more of an anti-heroine than some Lorelai fans want to admit. Hate it because it will spawn another one of the periodic 'I hate Luke' rants elsewhere on this group. Weirdly, though, it seems to be only Luke that gets that rant, not Sookie nor Rory nor Emily.

Lorelai is deliberately written to be inconsiderate and frequently selfish, and above all immature. It's part of who she is. We're given leave to hate spoiled GiGi, but not supposed to hate analogous behaviors in Lorelai. 

We see her bad behaviors, yet hear repeatedly that she's the best mother ever. Uh, no.

Now we're seeing articles about how strongly feminist she was, but the citations are weak and frequently ignore that some were ironic and there were many more examples of Lorelai being only a typical 'feminist-when-it's-cool' person. Then there's the very large number of anti-feminist moments like slut-shaming, over-simplification of real life issues and passive love relationship scenarios. 

I don't dislike Luke. At all. He has personality flaws, yes. He doesn't always make the right decisions. He grumbles - a lot. But he loves his town, despite all its foibles, and he loves the people in it - despite their quirkiness. And, he's always there to help when he's needed, even though I don't think he gets the appreciation he deserves when he does help out (from Taylor, especially).

The reasons I started this topic are twofold: 1) Several years ago, when I first began watching GG (in reruns - I didn't watch it when the series originally aired), I cam across a blog post written by a guy who was absolutely in love with Lorelai. I was totally confounded by that. I couldn't understand why any clear-thinking guy would ever want to get involved with a woman so self-centered and often cruel to others (and yes, I do see much of Lorelai's behaviors as cruel) - and 2) It seemed everyone on the GG forums was likewise "Team Lorelai." But I knew I couldn't possibly be alone in feeling this way about her.

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

And I'm just going to add the way she treated Luke in the whole span of their relationship. From season 5 through the first half of 6, he kow-tows to all her wants and needs, whether it's moving a TV in his room so he can watch TV when he's trying to sleep or building an extension of her house. <snip>

The way she went straight to Christopher afterwards was cruel and unforgivable. You don't screw someone else the same night you break up with your fiancé. 

Lets skip ahead to after the marriage ended, to that drunk serenade. Lorelei publicly tells everyone that it didn't mean anything, and them gets pissy when Luke doesn't respond to it the way she wanted. Hello: you fucked Cheistopher and married him on the rebound!! I think Luke's reluctance to rush back into things is more than a little understandable.

Max was right: Lorelei really was incapable of thinking about someone other than herself for more than five minutes at a time.

But see, everyone kow-tows to Lorelai - and that's what I don't understand. Her first date with Jason, that he had obviously put a lot of time and effort into planning. Does Lorelai appreciate it? Nope. Because it's not the kind of date she likes. Could she not have just shut up, acted like a decent human being, and appreciated his effort? And maybe after the date, invite him on a date she plans that's more to her liking, to show him the type of date she prefers? Another scene that irritates me is the one in which she invites Luke over to watch movies, and proceeds to rattle off a list of her "rules" for movie watching (didn't she do essentially the same thing when Dean came over for movie night?). Because there is only one way to watch movies. HER way.

Her running to Christopher after SHE gave Luke an ultimatum (and he didn't fall for it - yay Luke), screws him, and then makes a point of telling Luke for no other reason than to hurt him - wow. And acting to Christopher as if she were the injured party. Double wow.

[Spartan Girl]

You mean she acted to Luke as if she were the injured party, right? Because she totally did. Like how dare he give up on her when she gave up on him?

[TwirlyGirly]

13 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

You mean she acted to Luke as if she were the injured party, right? Because she totally did. Like how dare he give up on her when she gave up on him?

Well, to both of them, really. Christopher and Luke. Christopher because when she ended up at Christopher's after the Luke ultimatum, she made Christopher believe she was the one who had been hurt by Luke (when IMO, she was wrong to give Luke that ultimatum in the first place). But that's how she seems to roll. She causes all these relationship issues, and then acts like she's the one that's been harmed by them - so everyone needs to rally around her and comfort her - while the real 'victim' and their feelings are virtually ignored.

[Lady Calypso]

3 hours ago, TwirlyGirly said:

Absolutely. Did she honestly believe had Dean been driving the animal would not have run out in front of the car? Did Dean have the power to prevent that? I don't think so. Her screaming at Luke at what could have happened was so over-the-top as to be ridiculous. I honestly think the reason she over-reacted was because she saw this situation as a way to "prove" to Luke her original assessment of Jess was right. Because Lorelai is never wrong. I think this is also the reason she "creates" contentious situations out of just about everything involving her parents. (Not that her parents are blameless. But Lorelai seems incapable of granting them the benefit of the doubt. Ever.) And, like you, I find myself constantly telling Lorelai to GROW UP. Hasn't helped....

The problem was that she was always going to find a scenario in which to blame Jess for. She never truly gave him a chance, in my opinion. The moment she heard from Luke about his nephew coming to town, and the moment he explained that he had some issues and that's why Liz was sending him away, she already had her mind set about him. She was more concerned about Luke than Jess. She was worried about him handling it, all because she had 'experience' with her being the rowdy child. Hell, she even gave Liz more of a chance right off the bat than Jess:

Quote

LUKE: Look, his problem is obvious, it's his mother. You never could count on Liz for anything. Our mom died when we were kids, right? It was just my dad, me and Liz. And my dad worked all the time and I worked in the store with my dad, and Liz was off doing God knows what.
LORELAI: Well, I bet losing her mom so early was kind of hard on her.

Lorelai was so concerned with Jess' behaviour but she never opened herself up to get to know Jess. She tried for Luke, but the first moment of him not falling at her feet, she dropped him, no questions asked. It's the fact that Lorelai was already question Luke's loyalty to his own family that got me bugged. Lorelai has been shown to drop people very quickly if they do not meet her standards, or if she majorly disagrees with their actions. I mean, she ran away from home the moment she got pregnant, she stopped talking to Rory for months when she stole the yacht and dropped out of Yale, she broke up with Max and took off days before the wedding, and the whole mess with Luke and Christopher. She's consistent, at the very least. 

Her attitude toward Jess was really the start of the tipping point with her for me. Look at their first conversation in Nick and Nora/Sid and Nancy: 

Quote

LORELAI: Let me guess, you don't want to be here?
JESS: Doesn't matter.
LORELAI: I mean, here in Stars Hollow.
JESS: Well geez, Ms. Gilmore, why would anyone not want to be here in Stars Hollow? That just sounds plum crazy.
LORELAI: Ugh, Jess, let me give you a little advice. The whole 'my parents don't get me' thing, I've been there.
JESS: You have, huh?
LORELAI: Yes, I have. I've also done the 'chip on my shoulder' bit. Ooh, and the surly, sarcastic, 'the world can bite my ass' bit, and let me tell you, I mastered them all, in heels, yet. And everything you're feeling might be totally justified, maybe you are getting screwed. But Luke is a great guy. He's very special, and he really wants to take care of you and make things right for you. You're incredibly lucky to have him. If you give this situation half a chance, you might be surprised at how good it can be, how much you like living here, and how comfortable it feels to have someone like Luke you can really depend on.
JESS: What are you sleeping with him or something?
LORELAI: Excuse me?
JESS: I don't know. The whole starry eyed 'you're so much better off, just give it a chance' speech. You're either really naïve, or you're getting some.
LORELAI: Ugh. There have been very few moments in my life where I have actually wished I had one of those enormous cream pies you can just smash in someone's face, but this is definitely one of them.

Taking a look at this whole conversation, it's no wonder Jess was a little harsh toward her. Yes, he's definitely a jackass in seasons 2-4, there's no denying that. He has a horrible attitude toward most things and even as a Jess fan, I can see why people would hate his character. But Lorelai's attitude toward Jess has always been dismissive. She goes outside and catches him with a beer. Ok, that's not good behaviour. But he's a bit sarcastic toward her and she immediately judges him for it. She is so condescending with her "I know what it's like" and then jumps onto it all being about Luke. I mean, I'd probably think the exact same thing as Jess; he just had more confidence to say it aloud. Her speech isn't about the town, or how Stars Hollow is a great town. It isn't even about Jess. She goes on and on about Luke. And he calls her out on it, which may not have been the right approach, but look how quickly she drops her caring act. It's because she was the target behind Jess' words. The moment his snark and his bad attitude becomes about her, she has no hesitation in dropping him. And it's clear that she was just waiting for him to slip up enough so she could go off on Luke for bringing him to town. 

I mean, who not only says that they want to throw a pie in his face, but also calls him a "little jerk" later in the season? To his face! So yeah, as soon as the accident happened, it allowed Lorelai to justify her anger and be able to run Jess out of town. She wouldn't listen to anyone, not even Rory. The town would easily back her up, so it was Rory/Jess/Luke vs The World here. It's why she didn't understand why Luke didn't forgive her right away for the fight (not that he ever got a proper apology; it would never be genuine, even through the off screen letter). It would always be about her, and she always thought that she knew best. The moment Luke sent Jess away, Lorelai thought that they would be on good terms, without considering that Luke might be pissed that he had to send his own nephew back to the woman who kicked him out in the first place. 

It would always be about her. Even with Rory, she had to be involved or it didn't matter. Look at the whole Harvard situation. She supported Rory for wanting to go, but she did none of the work to ensure that she would get there. She did no research, she didn't make sure Rory was more involved, she didn't look into any safety schools. She just assumed that her perfect daughter would be admitted and that it would be it for her. She was too focused on being a best friend, I guess to counteract the relationship with her own parents, that she forgot to be a mother. Which is why, in my opinion, Lorelai was always going to be selfish and in it for herself. When you're a best friend, you can choose to be selfish. When you're a mother, I don't think there's much room for that. It's why Lorelai kept Rory almost entirely isolated from her own grandparents. Rory was lucky she got holidays with them (and presumably, only two or three times a year). Lorelai was a very hard worker and she did what she could for Rory, but in the end, it would always be about her and her feelings, and everyone else be damned. 

[AllyB]

Lorelai was massively annoyed with Jess because when she caught him drinking beer she thought he'd be wowed by her 'cool mom' routine but he didn't fall for it. She never took into account that he wasn't cosseted Rory, love-stricken Dean, ignored Paris or overly-stifled Lane. He was a teenage boy who had suffered from what was probably fairly severe emotional neglect, some physical neglect and almost certainly a degree of emotional abuse all his life. Lorelai trying to impress him by showing off her coolness wasn't going to win him over. The boy clearly needed acceptance, stability and an awful lot of time, before he could even begin to trust or like a parental figure. (As is what happened with Luke.) But Lorelai was so used to Rory's peers wanting her as their mom because she liked cool music and pigging out on junk food, a validation she craved because it proved she wasn't like Emily and Richard, that she resented Jess big-time for not fawning all over her.

[HeySandyStrange]

6 hours ago, TwirlyGirly said:

The reasons I started this topic are twofold: 1) Several years ago, when I first began watching GG (in reruns - I didn't watch it when the series originally aired), I cam across a blog post written by a guy who was absolutely in love with Lorelai. I was totally confounded by that. I couldn't understand why any clear-thinking guy would ever want to get involved with a woman so self-centered and often cruel to others (and yes, I do see much of Lorelai's behaviors as cruel) - and 2) It seemed everyone on the GG forums was likewise "Team Lorelai." But I knew I couldn't possibly be alone in feeling this way about her.

Part of the unadulterated Lorelai love from the other characters and some fans despite her glaring flaws could very well be due to the Halo effect(aka. attractive people are seen to have better personalities and character traits because they are attractive). I think Lorelai, both inside and outside the show, is cut a lot of slack because she is attractive, vivacious, and witty. It is pretty true to life that people, even intelligent and pragmatic people, can be taken in by good looks and over look pretty glaring character flaws. It seems to have happened to the otherwise smart, calm Max, but he was one of the few how wised up and saw through Lorelai's shiny surface further down the line. I see this applying to Rory as well--she was so pretty and sweet on the surface that people overlooked her selfish, spoiled behavior.

I think part of the problem with Lorelai and Rory is not that they are flawed, but they are definitely Mary Sues. In fact, I believe I read that ASP said that she based Lorelai on herself and Rory on Daniel P. Which would be fine, except a Mary Sue's flaws are white-washed or mostly ignored in show. This was especially the case in later seasons imo, and it makes Lorelai (and Rory) less likable and sympathetic.

Quote

Love it because there are plenty of things to dislike as well as like about Lorelai, she is far more of an anti-heroine than some Lorelai fans want to admit. Hate it because it will spawn another one of the periodic 'I hate Luke' rants elsewhere on this group. Weirdly, though, it seems to be only Luke that gets that rant, not Sookie nor Rory nor Emily.

Luke and Lorelai are very flawed characters, but I actually see Luke as being much less self-centered and selfish overall then Lorelai. So, while I know everyone has a preference and Luke as a person is not everyone's cup of tea, I don't understand the idea that some people have that Luke is somehow not "good" enough for Lorelai. I've always maintained that Lorelai is a very aggravating person, always needing to be the center of attention, always needing to be right, that I (a Luke type introvert) would want to throw myself out of a window if I had to spend a significant amount of time alone with her. So I give kudos to Luke for putting up with it.

[blueray]

I didn't realize this until recently... how annoying Lorelai is. While I don't hate her, she gets really annoying and I've had to fast-forward her scenes sometimes. I agree as others have said she is very self centered and can't except when things don't go her way.

What always bothered me about the whole max thing, is so why did she leave him?  I get that she wasn't ready to get married but she could have just told him that.

[Taryn74]

6 hours ago, AllyB said:

Lorelai was massively annoyed with Jess because when she caught him drinking beer she thought he'd be wowed by her 'cool mom' routine but he didn't fall for it.

Bingo!  And then she immediately went inside to tell Luke how "screwed up" Jess was (based on nothing more than him grabbing a beer out of her fridge and not falling at her feet in adoration) and basically tells Luke what an idiot he is for letting Jess come stay with him.  That's the exact reason that I'm Team Luke when he snarks about her getting pregnant at 16 and not always having the best decision-making skills.  Lorelai needed a verbal slap in the face, and by golly she got it.  Go Luke.

[Lady Calypso]

8 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

Bingo!  And then she immediately went inside to tell Luke how "screwed up" Jess was (based on nothing more than him grabbing a beer out of her fridge and not falling at her feet in adoration) and basically tells Luke what an idiot he is for letting Jess come stay with him.  That's the exact reason that I'm Team Luke when he snarks about her getting pregnant at 16 and not always having the best decision-making skills.  Lorelai needed a verbal slap in the face, and by golly she got it.  Go Luke.

I totally agree. I also laughed really hard when Lorelai declared that he was "more screwed up than [she] thought". Like....based on him not laughing at her quips, him grabbing a beer, and then making a few asshole remarks? Wow, your standards are low for screw ups, Lorelai! Now, if he had stolen a few things from your house, punched you in the face, and then got Rory pregnant, then I'd say that justifies you trying to "protect" Luke. But honestly, I never thought her intentions to protect Luke from taking in his troubled nephew were actually genuine. She didn't know who Jess was or what kind of trouble he was in, and she was still discouraging him from doing it. 

[huahaha]

Lots of good examples in this thread! I love/hate Lorelai but don't think she's a Mary Sue. Her flaws are very clear. She's definitely an author avatar though.

My least favorite Lorelai moments are when she turns on her reality distortion machine and starts talking about Rory as the most angelic and important person in the universe. (The accident with Jess is a good example, but it happens all the time.)

I also couldn't stand her moony obsession with Christopher. It never fit their actual relationship. No one as smart as Lorelai dreamily murmurs "Christopher" when seeing their deadbeat baby daddy roll up. Maybe that's more a flaw in the writing than in Lorelai though.

It will be interesting to see the new season with Lorelai and Rory 10 years older. Their narcissism was cute partially because they were a couple of catalog models. Both actresses are still gorgeous but have lost a bit of the pretty/youth privilege they had during the original run. Judging by the clip with Lorelai musing about whether John Oliver would find her hot, ASP has not dialed back any of Lorelai's ego. I'd like to see if Lauren Graham can still sell it at almost 50. (I kind of hope that she can!)

[TwirlyGirly]

8 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

Bingo!  And then she immediately went inside to tell Luke how "screwed up" Jess was (based on nothing more than him grabbing a beer out of her fridge and not falling at her feet in adoration) and basically tells Luke what an idiot he is for letting Jess come stay with him.  That's the exact reason that I'm Team Luke when he snarks about her getting pregnant at 16 and not always having the best decision-making skills.  Lorelai needed a verbal slap in the face, and by golly she got it.  Go Luke.

And this is precisely why I can give Luke a lot of latitude for not telling Lorelai about April for as long as he did, and keeping them apart. I'm not sure this was a conscious decision on his part, but he has a long history with Lorelai making snap judgments about people (Jess), getting angry when she isn't made privy to the details of his private life (Nicole), and offering her unasked for "expert opinions" on his relationships with just about everyone.

The situation with April has so many conflicts for him to deal with. What is his responsibility to April? How much of a relationship should he try to forge with her, given her age? How should he handle his relationship with Anna? How do April and Anna fit in with his relationship with Lorelai? It might have been different if resolving those questions had been smooth sailing from the outset, but it wasn't. Anna announcing they'd be moving to Arizona added another layer of complexity to that situation for Luke.

Lorelai is impulsive, Luke is a planner who likes to take things slow - not dive in head first. Lorelai likes to steamroll her way through every situation - which is what gets her in trouble over and over again. I'm sure the last thing Luke wanted was for Lorelai to insinuate herself into that situation and "manage" it for him - which is what she does with just about every relationship between herself and a "third party" to someone she has a relationship with (for example, Lorelai's constant attempts to manipulate and "manage" the relationship between Rory and her grandparents, Richard and Emily).

I'm remembering the scene when Luke and Lorelai join forces to disable the bells at the church, and the conversation in which Lorelai hammered Luke on his claim to be living with Nicole. So inappropriate, IMO, and none of her damn business.

[TwirlyGirly]

15 hours ago, HeySandyStrange said:

Luke and Lorelai are very flawed characters, but I actually see Luke as being much less self-centered and selfish overall then Lorelai. So, while I know everyone has a preference and Luke as a person is not everyone's cup of tea, I don't understand the idea that some people have that Luke is somehow not "good" enough for Lorelai. I've always maintained that Lorelai is a very aggravating person, always needing to be the center of attention, always needing to be right, that I (a Luke type introvert) would want to throw myself out of a window if I had to spend a significant amount of time alone with her. So I give kudos to Luke for putting up with it.

A thousand times, yes!

As a matter of fact, IMO, Luke was the only one of Lorelai's paramours who was able to keep her in check, at least some of the time. For whatever reason, he loved her. But, at the same time, instead of just swallowing whatever she said hook, line, and sinker - he did fight back (or try to) when he truly believed she was wrong, as opposed to always just giving in and taking the path of least resistance. I feel the same way about Rory and Jess.

[Meow25]

On 9/11/2016 at 9:00 AM, TwirlyGirly said:

Her first date with Jason, that he had obviously put a lot of time and effort into planning. Does Lorelai appreciate it? Nope. Because it's not the kind of date she likes. Could she not have just shut up, acted like a decent human being, and appreciated his effort? And maybe after the date, invite him on a date she plans that's more to her liking, to show him the type of date she prefers?

The first date with Jason always bothered me.  I get that she hates her parents world, but to have absolutely SO RUDE is just unconscionable.  Enjoy the freaking food, get to know the guy, and later on explain that money & fancy crap doesn't make you swoon.  

She just ins't a nice person to anyone.  She really is very malignant once you look at the severe narcissism she displays on the show.  :/   She was so shitty to all the guys she dated.  

[Aloeonatable]

Quote

 she resented Jess big-time for not fawning all over her.

This was my impression when I saw this scene the first time 15 years ago. Yes, what Jess said was inappropriate, but at the same time understandable. Here was this woman telling him how lucky he was to be sent someplace he didn't want to be and with someone he barely knew. I suppose she meant well, but it came across as so condescending.

[Melancholy]

4 hours ago, TwirlyGirly said:

And this is precisely why I can give Luke a lot of latitude for not telling Lorelai about April for as long as he did, and keeping them apart. I'm not sure this was a conscious decision on his part, but he has a long history with Lorelai making snap judgments about people (Jess), getting angry when she isn't made privy to the details of his private life (Nicole), and offering her unasked for "expert opinions" on his relationships with just about everyone.

The situation with April has so many conflicts for him to deal with. What is his responsibility to April? How much of a relationship should he try to forge with her, given her age? How should he handle his relationship with Anna? How do April and Anna fit in with his relationship with Lorelai? It might have been different if resolving those questions had been smooth sailing from the outset, but it wasn't. Anna announcing they'd be moving to Arizona added another layer of complexity to that situation for Luke.

Lorelai is impulsive, Luke is a planner who likes to take things slow - not dive in head first. Lorelai likes to steamroll her way through every situation - which is what gets her in trouble over and over again. I'm sure the last thing Luke wanted was for Lorelai to insinuate herself into that situation and "manage" it for him - which is what she does with just about every relationship between herself and a "third party" to someone she has a relationship with (for example, Lorelai's constant attempts to manipulate and "manage" the relationship between Rory and her grandparents, Richard and Emily).

I'm remembering the scene when Luke and Lorelai join forces to disable the bells at the church, and the conversation in which Lorelai hammered Luke on his claim to be living with Nicole. So inappropriate, IMO, and none of her damn business.

This is such a great post. You really put into words why I'm not all that upset with Luke for not telling Lorelai about April and then, withholding April from Lorelai. It's also because Lorelai first asked for a postponement of the wedding until the rift with Rory was resolved and Lorelai constantly resisted any of Luke's attempts to get involved in mediating Lorelai's conflict with Rory. She even started to get mad at Luke for talking to Rory when Rory approached Luke in the first place until she realized that it was silly. I think it's hypocritical to say that Luke shouldn't have his own right to postpone the wedding until he's figured things out with April on his own terms. 

But yes, there's also how Lorelai does make a habit out of controlling/criticizing/dominating people's relationships with others. Jess/Luke and Rory/the grandparents are great examples. I think in her very ultimatum, Lorelai shows exactly how much she Does Not Get that Luke wants to be a full-fledged parent and has every right to become a full-fledged parent to April. 

LUKE: I have to think this through.
LORELAI: No!
LUKE: I have April!
LORELAI: You're gonna have to figure out how April fits into our lives, not the other way around.

No! A parent should first consider how romantic relationships affect their child. A parent's child is the first priority. Everything else comes second. That's certainly the attitude that Lorelai takes with Rory. Just because Luke was deprived of his right to be a parent through Anna's deception doesn't mean that Luke isn't entitled to act like a full-fledged parent now and part of that is the right to and the understanding from his romantic partners that the kid comes first and she's not some square peg to be jammed into Lorelai's marriage on Lorelai's time-table. The fact that Lorelai put things this way just underscores that Luke was right to be hesitant on marrying her if Luke couldn't picture how their relationship would progress once Luke had an even bigger emotional priority. Because a lot of the thrust of pre-April Luke/Lorelai is that Luke puts Lorelai emotionally first a lot of the time and then, all of the time when they got romantically involved. 

Edited September 12, 2016 by Melancholy

[clack]

17 year old Lorelai -- with no job, no money, no education, no health insurance, no network of family or friends to babysit, etc --took her one year old baby out of a safe environment to an utterly unknown one. Lorelai got very lucky, but it could have gone horribly wrong.

Lorelai convinced herself she was running away for Rory's sake, but it was selfish, Ill-considered, and inflicted lasting trauma on her parents.

Edited September 12, 2016 by clack

[random chance]

Ah this thread is so much fun!  Some years ago I was doing the GG rewatch on TWoP, and because we were discussing the episodes, I didn't skip through any scenes.  That's when I realized that it was pretty crucial for me to skip some scenes, otherwise I spent way too much time wanting to slap Lorelai.  Entitled, self-centered, narcissistic, me-me-me Lorelai!  She's a lot easier to love when I edit out scenes like those mentioned above. 

[Melancholy]

I like Lorelai, even though I think I end up agreeing with most critiques of her. What can I say? Her looks and personality have an affect on me. Also critically, I think she's a great mom (even though she's made big parenting mistakes) and that counts for a lot with me. I also would say that she's a fundamentally honest person. I do stop myself because she's actually lied A LOT and she's absolutely not in touch with her actual desires or weaknesses on more than a superficial level. So, maybe honest isn't the right word. But generally, I think Lorelai fibs about small stuff but on the big issues, she lives her life out-loud. 

For some underrated moments of irritation, it bugged when Lorelai was all LA-DEE-DA about the snow in S5. Meanwhile, Sookie was stressing out about the lack of shipments of their produce and coffee. Michele was stressed out about the cancelled reservations and the late shipments of mats. However, Lorelai was sashaying around the inn, blissfully unaware until the problem directly came on her doorstep like SHE couldn't have her coffee, even though Lorelai's whole job is about managing operations for the inn. IMO, there was a general downgrade in how much Lorelai was on top of the goings-on at her in in S5-7. 

I really hate her leaping to this judgey accusatory conclusion that it turns out that Emily was just this gold-digging bitch who didn't love Richard after all just because Emily was working on the practical ramifications of Richard's heart attack. Emily and Richard have been each other's whole world, especially after Lorelai decided that she barely wanted to be a daughter to them. However all of a sudden, Lorelai sees a potential white horse to ride on and joust with Emily because Emily was doing what any wife of many years would do and attend to the practical considerations of Richard's heart attack. If anything in Emily's character should have free from criticism, it'd be that she genuinely loved Richard and did her best to be an excellent wife to him. It's really a classic example of Lorelai looking for the worst in her parents or even just *creating* the worst in her parents under some phoney righteous cover. 

Edited September 12, 2016 by Melancholy

[RachelKM]

45 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

I really hate her leaping to this judgey accusatory conclusion that it turns out that Emily was just this gold-digging bitch who didn't love Richard after all just because Emily was working on the practical ramifications of Richard's heart attack. Emily and Richard have been each other's whole world, especially after Lorelai decided that she barely wanted to be a daughter to them. However all of a sudden, Lorelai sees a potential white horse to ride on and joust with Emily because Emily was doing what any wife of many years would do and attend to the practical considerations of Richard's heart attack. If anything in Emily's character should have free from criticism, it'd be that she genuinely loved Richard and did her best to be an excellent wife to him. It's really a classic example of Lorelai looking for the worst in her parents or even just *creating* the worst in her parents under some phoney righteous cover. 

Acknowledging her narcissism and generally self involved personality, I'm generally able to like Lorelai due to two things: 1) the fact that, on the subject of Rory and when she pulls head out her ass for others she cares about, she will do almost anything for people she loves and 2) Lauren Graham's charm.

However, I couldn't agree with the above more.  As much as her tendency toward self-involvement annoyed me, I was never more disenchanted with Lorelai than with her persistence in viewing her parents through the lens of her 16 year-old petulant, myopic self.  Well, that and her tendency to sneer at their privilege while frequently exploiting it. 

Edited September 12, 2016 by RachelKM
typos

[random chance]

2 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

 her tendency to sneer at their privilege while frequently exploiting it. 

This bugged me the most, even though it was the basis of the whole series.

[Melancholy]

36 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

Acknowledging her narcissism and generally self involved personality, I'm generally able to like Lorelai due to two things: 1) the fact that, on the subject of Rory and when she pulls head out her ass for others she cares about, she will do almost anything for people she loves and 2) Lauren Graham's charm.

However, I couldn't agree with the above more.  As much as her tendency toward self-involvement annoyed me, I was never more disenchanted with Lorelai than with her persistence in viewing her parents through the lens of her 16 year-old petulant, myopic self.  Well, that and her tendency to sneer at their privilege while frequently exploiting it. 

Right. I may have over-given Lorelai the benefit on the doubt on honesty. Because it was just a slanderous outrageous lie for Lorelai to tell Mia in late S7 that she was all but forced into leaving as a teenager because she embarrassed Emily by getting pregnant. "She wanted me out of the house so she didn't have to explain why my school uniform didn't fit any more." I don't exactly think that Lorelai was deliberately *scamming* Mia or something. However, I do think that Lorelai has her own fundamental break with reality to the point that she's unable to admit wrongdoing or admit what actually went down between her and her parents because she's so locked into her 16-year old mode of feeling sorry for herself that adulthood or being back in E/R's life for the last seven years and hearing about their pain in losing her, a pain and anger far greater to Richard and CERTAINLY Emily than the humiliation of her getting pregnant, didn't sink in. These are convenient lies that she tells herself and she believes is so much that Lorelai feels that she has the right to viciously slander Emily just because Mia dared empathize momentarily with Emily's pain. If anyone isn't treating Loreai like the ultimate victim, she flips out. The show somewhat plays that Mia delivered Lorelai this crucial game-changing information that Emily approached Mia looking for pictures of Lorelai and Rory during the estrangement. IF ONLY LORELAI KNEW THAT. However, I'm left deeply cynical. Lorelai has more than enough information to know that she really hurt her parents and that they absolutely didn't want her to run away from them and they very much wanted to support her and Rory. There's nothing indicating that this revelation is anything other than a brief, ephemeral epiphany likely to be forgotten tomorrow, at best, and a cynical way to save face in front of Mia, at worst.

[moonb]

The season 7 scene with Mia also happened after the Lorelai/Rory rift of season 6, which should have given Lorelai a comparatively minor taste of what it's like to have your child reject you - whether you feel you're in the right or not. And that was only a few months, not 15 years. Granted, Emily and Richard played their part in that, but it did seem for a while there in late season 6 that Lorelai had developed a little empathy for what her parents had gone through. 

[RachelKM]

2 hours ago, moonb said:

The season 7 scene with Mia also happened after the Lorelai/Rory rift of season 6, which should have given Lorelai a comparatively minor taste of what it's like to have your child reject you - whether you feel you're in the right or not. And that was only a few months, not 15 years. Granted, Emily and Richard played their part in that, but it did seem for a while there in late season 6 that Lorelai had developed a little empathy for what her parents had gone through. 

All of this.  I could almost see it in season 1 and most of season 2.  Prior to the pilot, Lorelai had kept her parents largely out of her life and totally at arms length.  (And in fairness, stories are supposed to open at a point in change of stasis.  So it makes dramatic sense for little to have changed in her perspective up to this point for effective story telling).  But over the following seven years there is almost no growth.  I agree that her momentary epiphany was likely to be fleeting... they'd been happening for at least five prior season with no lasting impact. 

Even without the mini rift with Rory, we'd been down this road with the "I disappointed my parents and they don't want me or this version of my life because it does fit their image" shit already.  Lorelai's Graduation Day is the perfect example.  Lorelai tells Rory that her parents wouldn't want to go because it's not what they imagined for her and she threw the life they planned for her in there faces by getting pregnant, not going to a ivy league college,  and not marrying  Chris.  Rory invites them and Emily being Emily hires a camera man annoying Lorelai with her excess and there's some douchebage complaining about rich privilege with which Lorelai is dodging being associate .  And then, Lorelai sees her parents in the audience as she is about to switch her tassel and Richard is beaming at her and Emily is about to cry and Lorelai seems to get it and smiles at them..... flash forward 5 years and you'd think they'd sent the graduation invitations back torn into pieces with a severed head of pet rather than showing up and being moved to tears the way Lorelai still insists they didn't want her around or to be in the life she chose for herself. 

Edited September 12, 2016 by RachelKM

[Melancholy]

13 minutes ago, moonb said:

The season 7 scene with Mia also happened after the Lorelai/Rory rift of season 6, which should have given Lorelai a comparatively minor taste of what it's like to have your child reject you - whether you feel you're in the right or not. And that was only a few months, not 15 years. Granted, Emily and Richard played their part in that, but it did seem for a while there in late season 6 that Lorelai had developed a little empathy for what her parents had gone through. 

Yup. Also, Lorelai was absolutely a better parent to Rory than her parents were to her. I think that's really clear. On that level, Rory running away was a greater betrayal. However, you know, I got much more an ultimatum of "You can't stay with me if you're making this terrible choice" from Lorelai in S5 than Richard/Emily in the flashbacks or credible stories about what went down. I believe Rory thought she couldn't go back to Lorelai's house if she was dropping out of Yale. I don't believe Lorelai thought she couldn't stay with E/R if she didn't marry Christopher and legitimize Rory. Now, I think Lorelai absolutely has a right to believing that she'd never hear the end of the obnoxious nagging of why she's not married to Christopher and why she's not handling herself and Rory exactly as E/R wants if she stayed at E/R's. That's 100 percent true and it's an understandable reason to leave (but not cut off contact). But that's very different from being kicked out.

Lorelai is really a horror to Max. Not just the leaving him practically at the alter. It's a problem that Max considered his role in Rory's life more than Rory did. Lorelai telling Max that OF COURSE he'll have no parental role in Rory's life is irresponsible with regard to Rory and thoughtless when it comes to Max who clearly wanted to be a good stepfather. Then in S3, she pursues him right down to practically chasing him around his classroom for ultimately a nothing more than a fling. Lorelai had an obligation to be delicate and careful with Max's feelings after she hurt and humiliated him so badly but she put little thought into it next to her desire for some validating flirting. I loved this moment:

LORELAI: Yeah, at Stanford. But he’s back now, for a little while at least, and I am happy to report that either he’s forgiven me for treating him so badly or it wasn’t that bad and I just built it up worse in my head.
RORY: Oh no, you treated him like crap.

And then later:

SOOKIE: He’s such a good guy.
LORELAI: Yeah, people are pretty unanimous on that.
SOOKIE: Well, was he nice to you?
LORELAI: Very. I mean, what happened with us was so long ago. Do you think what I did to him was really horrible?
SOOKIE: You mean dumping him in the gutter? Sure.
LORELAI: Yeah, people are pretty unanimous on that, too.

[Lady Calypso]

15 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

Yup. Also, Lorelai was absolutely a better parent to Rory than her parents were to her. I think that's really clear. On that level, Rory running away was a greater betrayal. However, you know, I got much more an ultimatum of "You can't stay with me if you're making this terrible choice" from Lorelai in S5 than Richard/Emily in the flashbacks or credible stories about what went down. I believe Rory thought she couldn't go back to Lorelai's house if she was dropping out of Yale. I don't believe Lorelai thought she couldn't stay with E/R if she didn't marry Christopher and legitimize Rory. Now, I think Lorelai absolutely has a right to believing that she'd never hear the end of the obnoxious nagging of why she's not married to Christopher and why she's not handling herself and Rory exactly as E/R wants if she stayed at E/R's. That's 100 percent true and it's an understandable reason to leave (but not cut off contact). But that's very different from being kicked out.

This. I feel like Lorelai wanted to leave but she could have stayed longer if she wanted to. She left at eighteen, when Rory was barely a year old (I keep forgetting she didn't leave right when she was pregnant) so she had the support; they never kicked her out. But she couldn't bare to be at home with her parents that she not only took off, but she cut off almost all communication with them. Which, in hindsight, is pretty terrible. She kept in contact during holidays, but how long until she started doing that? Emily and Richard had no idea about Lorelai's life, so I imagine Lorelai stayed away until she got herself and Rory into a more stable lifestyle. It's heavily implied that Lorelai sustained some sort of emotional abuse. Emily/Richard may not have been aware of it themselves, but we know how they can be, so I can imagine why Lorelai left. But Lorelai didn't get away from her parents; I think she kind of became them in her own way. I think she took the other extreme to their parenting style, but they were clearly very similar. Lorelai loves Rory, and I do believe that Emily and Richard love Lorelai. But while Emily/Richard didn't show the proper love that Lorelai believed that she deserved, Lorelai showed her love for Rory that ended up isolating her from most people. I think that Lorelai just wanted a sense of control over her own life as well as Rory's. I believe both Lorelai and Emily/Richard made choices that they thought were best, but both ended up having dire consequences at one time or another. 

But Lorelai is shaped by how her parents raised her and how she wanted to be raised, which in turn rubbed off on Rory. Lorelai avoided bringing men home with Rory, wanting to keep Rory separate from any part of her romantic life. It probably had Lorelai's romantic life suffer because it doesn't sound like she had a serious boyfriend for the first fifteen/sixteen years of her daughter's life. Hell, we see that she's not good at romantic relationships or attachments starting with Max. And we see how that's affected Rory's love life in a more subtle way. We can also see Rory running away to her grandparents' as not only a way to get away from her mother once she's old enough to rebel, but she's also taking lessons out of Lorelai's handbook. She's seen the way her mother has dealt with serious issues so it was always inevitable that Rory would one day want to get away and cut ties with her mother for a bit. It's just that Rory had somewhere to go with her grandparents, and that was more of a betrayal to Lorelai than Rory running away on her own, I think. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I think it hurt Lorelai the two times Rory left home to stay with the people Lorelai had left many years ago with Rory. She never felt like she had family to go to when she was eighteen, but Rory got that chance. 

[Melancholy]

Now I'm wondering if a teenage Lorelai would have moved in with Trix if Trix was a regular stateside presence in her life. I'm thinking "Absolutely not" because Trix was the same snooty, judgmental, traditional, wealthy, sharply sarcastic, difficult personality as Richard and Emily. Everything that Lorelai was running away from. However, I don't think Lorelai would have felt restrained because it'd be a betrayal to her parents. I also think that Lorelai really wanted to make it on her own, which is wonderful. Rory didn't have that spark of independence and self-reliance at 20 that Lorelai had at 16. Rory was looking be taken care of and bailed out of her bad choices. Lorelai could have gotten an easy route to being taken care of without the dread of being the overbearing parents' house by marrying Chris and them playing house on their own with the cushy job that Chris would get from his father or Richard. But Lorelai didn't want the strings that would come from that or to marry for convenience and she wanted to make it on her own. 

It bothers me when Rory was basically proven right that Lorelai needed her parents' help to deal with the termite problem but even after that happened, Lorelai was still lecturing Rory for getting the parents involved because Lorelai provided for Rory in the past. (In Lorelai's living paycheck-to-paycheck strategy where they live very nicely when everything is stable but Lorelai doesn't save anything to deal with any emergencies.) Or when Rory made the entirely correct choice to ask for a loan for Yale from her grandparents so that Lorelai could open her inn instead of Lorelai and Sookie struggling for some hard-to-get Stars Hallow hospital job after the Independence Inn burned down and Lorelai was still pouting about it like a vindictive child. 

RORY: Don't you see? We're all getting exactly what we want. It's a win-win-win situation.
LORELAI: It's not.
RORY: It is.
LORELAI: Okay, maybe, maybe it is. But just once, just once, I want you to get exactly what you want, and me to get exactly what I want, and them to get nothing!

[elang4]

See, now I do like Lorelai and I genuinely think she is a pretty great mom to Rory, especially considering she did it all on her own alongside having a full time job. Her choice I know but I still think it was pretty impressive what she managed to achieve.

However I do actually agree with most of the things you've all said on this thread so now I'm really confused as to whether I like her or not! :P

[RachelKM]

I think it is okay to like Lorelai while also acknowledging that that she was deeply flawed.  Lorelai as a character was charming, quick witted, well meaning (in most cases), hard working, and determined; and she was a supportive and completely involved parent and a caring (if occasionally self-involved) friend. And as I said above, in general she would go to great lengths to help someone she loved, and she loved fairly easily (if you weren't her parents or her boyfriend/fiance).

That said, she was also a spoilt, narcissistic, stubborn jerk with an infuriatingly flat emotional learning curve. 

Edited September 12, 2016 by RachelKM

[Smad]

3 minutes ago, elang4 said:

However I do actually agree with most of the things you've all said on this thread so now I'm really confused as to whether I like her or not! :P

IMO Lorelai's saving grace is Lauren Graham. It's that simple for me really. In the hands of most other actresses this character would have crashed and burned the show years before it did.

[RachelKM]

3 hours ago, Smad said:

IMO Lorelai's saving grace is Lauren Graham. It's that simple for me really. In the hands of most other actresses this character would have crashed and burned the show years before it did.

I have said the same.  A great case example is Bunheads.  I love Sutton Foster.  She is funny, talented, and charismatic.  Yet, her character on Bunheads (which was essentially a Lorelai re-do) was not nearly as likable.  It could also be that I was younger when watching Gilmore Girls, but there was definitely a warmth to Lorelai that saved the character which I believe can be credited to Lauren Graham. 

Edited September 13, 2016 by RachelKM

[Taryn74]

28 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

Now I'm wondering if a teenage Lorelai would have moved in with Trix if Trix was a regular stateside presence in her life.

Oh, now that's a fascinating scenario!  I imagine Emily would have had much the same response to that, as Lorelai did to Rory moving in with E&R.  Richard probably would have been okay with it, though.

 

29 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

I'm thinking "Absolutely not" because Trix was the same snooty, judgmental, traditional, wealthy, sharply sarcastic, difficult personality as Richard and Emily. Everything that Lorelai was running away from.

Hmm, not sure I agree with this.  Trix always seemed to genuinely admire Lorelai's spunk, they got along fairly well as far as I remember.  And even as an adult, when Trix reprimanded Lorelai for something (starting to answer her cell phone during dinner, talking about her plans to attend the winter carnival) Lorelai's immediate reaction was one of respect and obedience -- a far cry from how she usually responded to her parents (especially her mother).

TeenageMother!Lorelai living with Trix might have been very interesting, indeed.

[Smad]

Just now, RachelKM said:

I have said the same.  A great case example is Bunheads.  I love Sutton Foster.  She is funny, talented, and charismatic.  But yet, her character on Bunheads (which was essentially a Lorelai re-do) was not nearly as likable.  It could also be that I was younger when watching Gilmore Girls, but there definitely a warmth to Lorelai that saved the character which I believe can be credited to Lauren Graham. 

Or closer to home. The actress who played Anna and Jimmy Mariano's girlfriend, Sherilyn Fenn, was also up for the role of Lorelai. That would never have worked long term, not with the way ASP decided to write Lorelai. There is just something off-putting about her to me (in all roles I have seen her in). If I had to watch her as Lorelai I would have probably quit the show after S1.

[Melancholy]

12 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

Hmm, not sure I agree with this.  Trix always seemed to genuinely admire Lorelai's spunk, they got along fairly well as far as I remember.  And even as an adult, when Trix reprimanded Lorelai for something (starting to answer her cell phone during dinner, talking about her plans to attend the winter carnival) Lorelai's immediate reaction was one of respect and obedience -- a far cry from how she usually responded to her parents (especially her mother).

TeenageMother!Lorelai living with Trix might have been very interesting, indeed.

Truth be told, I thought of adding that. Unlike Richard and Emily, Trix was far more indulgent of the children of her line (Richard, Lorelai, Rory). However, I still landed on my main point- Lorelai was running away from that world and Trix still really exemplified it even though Trix was more inclined to just say that all of her children exemplified perfect Gilmore virtues by existing while Richard and Emily thought they had to force Lorelai and Rory into acting out those perfect virtues that they were born with because of their Gilmore blood. 

[moonb]

Lorelai/Trix could have been interesting to watch, but I'm not sure if it would have ended very differently. Living with Emily, after all, caused the meeker Rory to become rebellious enough to leave the elder Gilmores herself, and Rory had always been pretty respectful of and obedient to Emily.  And Trix, even if she's more indulgent of a grandchild, would still have expected Lorelai to act like a Gilmore.  In fact it's arguable that one reason she did admire Lorelai was precisely because she ran away from home and made something of herself, while a teenage Lorelai with a baby moving with Trix would have been similar to, well, how most of us view season 6 Rory: a little spoiled and unable to stick to to the "right" path according to the adults around her.  Trix is fun to watch, but she's possibly more manipulative than Emily or Lorelai - it always looked to me as if she openly praises Lorelai and Rory to get at Emily, but doesn't care much about them except as they relate to Richard. 

 

It's interesting how some of Lorelai's most admirable qualities - her independence, drive, desire to make it on her own with Rory  aid in developing her worst ones; especially her narcissism and significantly shutting most people out of her and Rory's lives.

Edited September 12, 2016 by moonb

[twoods]

Yeah I didn't understand why she shut everyone out of their lives. For instance, their absolute assholery behavior at that B &B- those people are the same people that are in Stars Hollow with being nosey. What made Lorelai and Rory better than them? They would rather starve than have a small conversation with a few guests? And this coming from someone who wanted to open pretty much a similar establishment. It's their entitlement that got to me at times- I don't understand how the writers could write them as such terrible people just for a few laughs.