Lorelai Gilmore: The 10(+) Things I Hate About You

[Melancholy]

Headmaster Charlston was righteous in The Deer Hunters.  Although for his other conflict with Lorelai, I agreed with her that she's a working single mom who didn't live locally and it was ridiculous to hector her about participation. Especially since this was high school instead of elementary or pre school 

[shron17]

In Summer, after Taylor compliments their newly hired lead for the musical he ignores Lorelai's prompt for a compliment of herself and Rory by responding no, she's pretty much the hottest woman he's ever seen.

[ChlcGirl]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

One of my favourite Lorelai smackdowns was from season 1's Christopher Returns. Not only is it delivered by the one character you'd never expect it from (Richard), it is also delivered so beautifully and it shines a light on Lorelai's actions pre-series and how it affected Emily and Richard. The show doesn't shine this light much. The show usually focuses on how much Emily/Richard have not been great parents to Lorelai and that she was justified in leaving. But even in this season 1 episode, we get a glimpse of how it affected the two of them. 

As for other characters who call Lorelai out on her behaviour, it's true that not many do. Christopher probably does it the most. It comes from a very hypocritical place and the sentiment is never followed through to its entirety, but he does tend to call her out at least once per season. 

Headmaster Charleston never gave into Lorelai and her behaviour. Obviously, he holds higher standards due to his status and class, but he doesn't let up on Lorelai and Rory at all. His "if Rory can't handle the pressure, she can leave" speech in The Deer Hunter episode was well done.

I personally adored the Charleston smackdown.  Because seriously Lorelai - pipe down with that hissy fit.

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

Headmaster Charlston was righteous in The Deer Hunters.  Although for his other conflict with Lorelai, I agreed with her that she's a working single mom who didn't live locally and it was ridiculous to hector her about participation. Especially since this was high school instead of elementary or pre school 

I'd agree with this. Although we know Lorelai hates getting involved with other moms, as evidenced by her disdain for even the Stars Hollow moms. Charleston didn't really have the right to tell Lorelai that she had to participate, although I do know private schools do encourage it. Lorelai just never seemed to get involved in Rory's school life in an active way. It's very weird, especially with how close they are, that Lorelai could barely muster up the strength to join a Parents Association of any kind. Chilton is understandable because Lorelai was doing this just so Rory could get into the best school so she could go to an Ivy League school. Lorelai didn't have to participate in any activities herself. However, it's her absolute refusal at the beginning that does make me think that maybe the Headmaster had the right idea. Lorelai never considered that choosing to participate instead of being forced could have maybe been good for Rory. But then again, this all ties into Lorelai knowing nothing about the requirements for Rory to get into an Ivy League school, showing that she did no research on her own and her support was basically just on the surface. 

"Oh yeah, Rory! You get good grades! You can get in to Harvard! I believe in you!" is pretty much what Lorelai did without any of the other stuff that she should have done as a parent. Lorelai, as a parent, was obligated to direct Rory to her options, to help her make educated choices and to guarantee her best shot at getting in. I only say this because Lorelai and Rory are a close mother-daughter duo. Lorelai supports but she doesn't put the effort in. She should have researched Harvard on her own, seeing the requirements it would take. She should have considered other options so Rory isn't just stuck with one idea. She got her into Chilton, sure, but was it Rory who mentioned the school to Lorelai and she just cheered her on until she had to wrangle in the money? Who suggested Chilton in the first place, especially weeks into 10th grade? 

And, again, it ties back into the mix up with her moving into Yale, where Lorelai was less concerned with Rory's school life and more concerned with Rory's relationship with Lorelai. Lorelai is so concerned with herself and Rory that she can't see past that bubble half the time. She sacrificed a better relationship with Rory and her grandparents until the girl was fifteen. She didn't insist on Christopher being more involved, because he probably would have if Lorelai had pushed harder (that's not to say Christopher isn't responsible for his actions but what he said in the Fall episode really put things in perspective in terms of Lorelai's role in the family breakdown). Lorelai didn't get involved in Rory's education until she had to. Even into season 7, Lorelai had no interest whatsoever in anything outside of the family bubble. So yeah, where Lorelai excelled (her relationship with Rory), she did fail in other departments. 

[ChlcGirl]

8 hours ago, Melancholy said:

Headmaster Charlston was righteous in The Deer Hunters.  Although for his other conflict with Lorelai, I agreed with her that she's a working single mom who didn't live locally and it was ridiculous to hector her about participation. Especially since this was high school instead of elementary or pre school 

Meh. She only lived 30 minutes away and had no issue going there for classes, for Friday night dinners or whenever there was something with her parents, or when she was dating Max.  God knows I didn't go to a prep school but I did work for a family and both their kids were in one.  It is pretty much a given that the parents are very involved in school activities. It's all part of the package.  And really, how can Lorelai claim ignorance on this?  She grew up in that world and went to a private school herself.  I think that may be my biggest annoyance with Lorelai: her continual pretense that the things that go on in her parents' world are foreign to her.  Gimme a break.

[Melancholy]

Meh, I'm still on Lorelai's side on her "paucity of participation." My parents were good, albeit imperfect parents. They refused to be a part of PTA activities too, at both the private Jewish day school connected to their temple where I went to elementary school and at the public community school where I went to middle and high school. My siblings and I didn't feel neglected on account of that and neither did Rory. Arguing that Lorelai commuted to Hartford to the Friday Night Dinners and to get her Associates Degree just further hammers how she was incredibly busy when Rory was in high school and did not really have time to give. Yes, there's times where she's dating or watching TV but as hard as she worked, I think Lorelai should get to pick her leisure time instead of Headmaster Charlston. Chilton clearly had plenty of stay-at-home moms with oodles of time to do PTA-things. Between that battery of moms and the incredibly high tuition, Chilton does not need forced conscription of all mothers as well (because I highly doubt Headmaster Charlston had the same conversation with fathers). A private school like Chilton promises a top fancy education to its students in exchange for a lot of money. It's very annoying that after that contract if over, they add that every mother has to also volunteer at the school. Add to that, Lorelai was already unusually involved with a community and volunteering her time. It's just that Stars Hallow sucked that volunteer/community time- but I think those are priorities that Lorelai is more than entitled to hold. 

I will agree with Lady Calypso on Lorelai's other failures with Rory- to an extent. I agree that it sucks that Lorelai didn't bother to figure out the college-application process on the most basic level. And that she threw such ridiculous tantrums about Yale that she made Rory afraid to tell her that she applied to back-up schools. I think Emily and Richard should have been allowed to be involved in Rory's life earlier. I don't think Lorelai should have pushed for Chris to be more involved for Chris's sake- but I do think her blasé tolerance of his deadbeatness modeled problematic attitudes towards men that affected Rory very badly even though her adulthood. (Lorelai could have scolded Chris more and I think that'd be a good thing to stand up for herself and Rory. However, I don't think a guy can be yelled at into being a parent even though a good scolding can wrangle a father into attending an activity or so. It's just a fundamental choice that comes from within to be a parent and stay involved. I think the whole concept that Lorelai should have married Chris or should have given into his romantic interests more to foster a parental relationship with Rory is completely disgusting.) However, I consider all of this very separate from the question of, "Was Charlston right to shame Lorelai for not being involved in activities like the Booster Club?' 

Also, despite her failures around application season, I give Lorelai plenty credit, though, for being involved in getting Rory to Harvard beyond borrowing the Chilton money. It's smaller scenes but it adds up that Lorelai was up studying all night with Rory after she got a D, that Lorelai wrangled Michel into helping with Rory with her French homework, scenes of Lorelai reading Rory's articles and homework, scenes of Rory practicing off her notecards where Lorelai is an audience, organizing the meeting with Harvard family so they could learn more about the school, Lorelai watching Stella the Chick for Rory's science project. Lorelai put in loads of efforts with Rory, even though she made it look fun a lot of the time. 

Edited December 24, 2016 by Melancholy

[TwirlyGirly]

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

<snip>

It's smaller scenes but it adds up that Lorelai was up studying all night with Rory after she got a D, that Lorelai wrangled Michel into helping with Rory with her French homework, scenes of Lorelai reading Rory's articles and homework, scenes of Rory practicing off her notecards where Lorelai is an audience, organizing the meeting with Harvard family so they could learn more about the school, Lorelai watching Stella the Chick for Rory's science project. Lorelai put in loads of efforts with Rory, even though she made it look fun a lot of the time. 

I'm so glad you mentioned the lunch visit with the Harvard alumnus (S3/E3), because I watched that rerun again just a few days ago and was going to post about it but forgot.

When Lorelai and Rory first arrive, carrying the envelope containing Rory's academic records, the host asks "You came bearing gifts?" Rory replies "What? Oh, this. No, this is not a gift. These are my records – grades, SATs."

I was appalled - anyone brought up in the world in which Lorelai was raised* would have known to bring a small hostess gift to that lunch - bottle of wine, box of candy, flowers - something. That is what you DO in that type of situation - especially since their host was a stranger opening his home to them for the purpose of helping Rory. That Lorelai and Rory showed up empty-handed save for an envelope filled with Rory's records was in very poor taste and a huge breach of etiquette.

And then, once again, during the visit Lorelai cannot keep her mouth shut and makes one inappropriate comment after another...

Is Lorelai so devoid of self-awareness she really can't see how her inappropriate comments not only make everyone around her uncomfortable, but also reflect badly on her? (I just had a flashback to the scene in "Ted Koppel's Big Night Out" in which Lorelai meets Pennilyn Lot for the first time and says "You're my almost mommy" and follows that with "Let me ask you something - would you have let me get a pony?" Just UGH.)

*Oh hell - I wasn't raised in that world and I know to do that!

[Melancholy]

1 minute ago, TwirlyGirly said:

I'm so glad you mentioned the lunch visit with the Harvard alumnus (S3/E3), because I watched that rerun again just a few days ago and was going to post about it but forgot.

When Lorelai and Rory first arrive, carrying the envelope containing Rory's academic records, the host asks "You came bearing gifts?" Rory replies "What? Oh, this. No, this is not a gift. These are my records – grades, SATs."

I was appalled - anyone brought up in the world in which Lorelai was raised* would have known to bring a small hostess gift to that lunch - bottle of wine, box of candy, flowers - something. That is what you DO in that type of situation - especially since their host was a stranger opening his home to them for the purpose of helping Rory. That Lorelai and Rory showed up empty-handed save for an envelope filled with Rory's records was in very poor taste and a huge breach of etiquette.

And then, once again, during the visit Lorelai cannot keep her mouth shut and makes one inappropriate comment after another...

Is Lorelai so devoid of self-awareness she really can't see how her inappropriate comments not only make everyone around her uncomfortable, but also reflect badly on her? (I just had a flashback to the scene in "Ted Koppel's Big Night Out" in which Lorelai meets Pennilyn Lot for the first time and says "You're my almost mommy" and follows that with "Let me ask you something - would you have let me get a pony?" Just UGH.)

*Oh hell - I wasn't raised in that world and I know to do that!

Well, that's all true. LOL. I won't defend Lorelai on that count. She was rude at the Harvard alum visit. LOL, the Harvard patriarch seemed to like Lorelai though. I think he thought she was amusing and somewhat incorrectly assumed that because she was a very young single mother who didn't go to college, that she came from some kind of poor background. He had some line about how Lorelai's lack of a bachelor's degree may end up working to Rory's benefit because it shows things didn't come easy to them. It seems like he didn't know that she was raised in an even more rarified moneyed world than his but she just chose to chuck it and then, selectively pick and choose advantages from that world in the last two and half years. 

[BunnyEars81]

Lorelai Gilmore is possibly one of the most obnoxious, self centered, immature, annoying, selfish bitches ever written. What makes it all the more annoying and insulting is the fact that people just let her get away with it. Not ONE person on the show calls her on her deplorable behavior. Like many of you have mentioned, she frequently high jacks other people's special events and makes them about her. Like Sookie's kid's christening, Lane's wedding was also high jacked by her incessant need for attention. She just had to get up and drunkenly ramble on complete nonesense about how SHE wasn't ever going to get married during the toast at someone else's wedding. What's more baffling is why people continue to invite her to anything. She clearly thinks she's just the most adorable thing ever and that her selfish annoying antics are to just be accepted because, duh, she's her. The entire time we are supposed to intensely dislike Emily and Richard, but I don't. While they can be pushy, they mean well and do everything that they do out of love. If I were Lorelai's parents, I'd hate her.  She's terrible. She's your average self centered, priveledged brat that uses her parents when it's convenient for her. She is really just the worst. If I were to write down every time Lorelai did something mind numbingly selfish, I'd have to basically recap every episode. My favorite is when she breaks up with Luke, sleeps with Christopher like, immediately, and then has the nerve to act like the victim. The show should have ended with the townspeople running her out of town because they are tired of her rude, selfish, self centered ass doing nothing but taking and taking with no regard to anyone else. I HATE Lorelai Gilmore. Worst character ever.

[ChlcGirl]

I don't disagree with any of your assessment about Lorelai.  She is pretty horrible but I don't hate her because she's written as witty and amusing.  However! If I knew a person like this in real life, I would passionately detest them and stay far, far from their bullshit.

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, BunnyEars81 said:

The show should have ended with the townspeople running her out of town because they are tired of her rude, selfish, self centered ass doing nothing but taking and taking with no regard to anyone else

You make some very valid points, but for this particular one, the townspeople of Stars Hollow were not much better. In fact, they share very similar qualities. None of them could accept outsiders, they were all clingy and dependent on one another to sometimes a very unhealthy degree, and they felt like they were entitled and rude to everyone not from Stars Hollow. Hell, they were sometimes rude to their own townspeople! So really, Lorelai seemed to fit right in because these people are so similar to her. Their entitlement over going to Rory's college graduation, for one? I feel bad for the other young adults also graduating! 

[readster]

Oh yes, the citizens of Stars Hollow were no prizes either. Many of them had their own selfish ambitions, wanted things done their way no matter how stupid, or at times, illegal. But everyone was to just shrug their shoulders and do it. I mean, hell even after finally meeting Mr. Kim, still proved that Mrs. Kim's whole: "Buy something or get out" attitude was along the lines of: "Tell your husband to stop being away all the time and get a life." Or how about the word or rifts or issues between people could be heard at the speed of light or no one ever told Kirk to be an adult and get a "real job" and stop using his mother as an excuse, even after he was married. 

[junienmomo]

I'm having a seriously difficult time trying to find a major or regular secondary character who wasn't close-minded and annoyingly quirky. It didn't matter where they lived. 

Ideas, anyone?

[Kohola3]

East Side Tilly?  Or is being a major gossip considered quirky?  Otherwise, I got nothin'.

[ChlcGirl]

Lulu?  She didn't exhibit any truly odd behavior other than dating Kirk if I'm remembering correctly.

[junienmomo]

3 minutes ago, ChlcGirl said:

Lulu?  She didn't exhibit any truly odd behavior other than dating Kirk if I'm remembering correctly.

Lulu makes sense. The worst thing I can recall her doing is letting Kirk do Fiddler. She likes pink and refused to return her Lorelai ribbon. Shocking. 

Tilly isn't a) real enough and b) all about invading other peoples' personal lives. 

I'm open to he idea of including Luke, but that's predicated on my determined denial of S6 second half. I give both him and Lorelai a pass for that. But since others accept it as canon, Luke would tend to fall off the list. Maybe. 

[TwirlyGirly]

6 hours ago, BunnyEars81 said:

Lorelai Gilmore is possibly one of the most obnoxious, self centered, immature, annoying, selfish bitches ever written. What makes it all the more annoying and insulting is the fact that people just let her get away with it. Not ONE person on the show calls her on her deplorable behavior. Like many of you have mentioned, she frequently high jacks other people's special events and makes them about her. Like Sookie's kid's christening, Lane's wedding was also high jacked by her incessant need for attention. She just had to get up and drunkenly ramble on complete nonesense about how SHE wasn't ever going to get married during the toast at someone else's wedding. What's more baffling is why people continue to invite her to anything. She clearly thinks she's just the most adorable thing ever and that her selfish annoying antics are to just be accepted because, duh, she's her. The entire time we are supposed to intensely dislike Emily and Richard, but I don't. While they can be pushy, they mean well and do everything that they do out of love. If I were Lorelai's parents, I'd hate her.  She's terrible. She's your average self centered, priveledged brat that uses her parents when it's convenient for her. She is really just the worst. If I were to write down every time Lorelai did something mind numbingly selfish, I'd have to basically recap every episode. My favorite is when she breaks up with Luke, sleeps with Christopher like, immediately, and then has the nerve to act like the victim. The show should have ended with the townspeople running her out of town because they are tired of her rude, selfish, self centered ass doing nothing but taking and taking with no regard to anyone else. I HATE Lorelai Gilmore. Worst character ever.

Now tell us how you REALLY feel, BunnyEars81! LOL!

I have to correct you on one point, though. There were several instances of other characters calling Lorelai out on her behavior (look upthread for examples). The problem is, in every instance, each character allowed Lorelai to remain in their lives, despite what she had done. She really never had to suffer any permanent consequences for the way she treated others. In real life, people who act like Lorelai eventually run into at least a couple of people who get fed up and cut them loose. Anybody prone to at least a little introspection would do a bit of analysis and try to figure out what went wrong with those relationships and hopefully, realize it was their own behavior that caused the break, take responsibility, and make some changes (sociopaths and psychopaths excepted). But because Lorelai never has to suffer any real loss as a result of her behavior, she has no incentive to change.

[Melancholy]

8 hours ago, junienmomo said:

8 hours ago, junienmomo said:

I'm having a seriously difficult time trying to find a major or regular secondary character who wasn't close-minded and annoyingly quirky. It didn't matter where they lived. 

Ideas, anyone?

Lulu makes sense. The worst thing I can recall her doing is letting Kirk do Fiddler. She likes pink and refused to return her Lorelai ribbon. Shocking. 

Tilly isn't a) real enough and b) all about invading other peoples' personal lives. 

I'm open to he idea of including Luke, but that's predicated on my determined denial of S6 second half. I give both him and Lorelai a pass for that. But since others accept it as canon, Luke would tend to fall off the list. Maybe.

I'd nominate Fran, adult!Jess, Andrew, Brian, Gil, Dave Rygowksi, Lulu, and probably a SUPER unpopular opinion but April. (I found her VERY quirky but not annoyingly so.) Luke does come close but he doesn't cut it. It's not the second half of S6 that drops him off my list because I'm sympathetic to him there but instead, his weird physically violent outbursts. That's my biggest problem with him. 

Back to the topic, I'll totally cosign that Lorelai is rude, inconsiderate, self-centered, has foolish fucked up priorities- but I actually really don't think she's selfish. And that's her redeeming quality. She really wants to be there and help the people that she loves, even if it comes at a steep cost to her. She's a giver in a bunch of situations where most people wouldn't give. 

ETA: I'll also add that Max actually did RIGHTFULLY cut Lorelai off once and for all because she burned him too badly. He did it in a nice but idiotic and goofy way ("You're like some kind of mythological creature!") and that romance had a rapidly approaching expiration with Rory's graduation looming (because what's the point of dating Max if Rory doesn't go his school!) which dulled the effect of the cut-out for the audience. However, he clearly made a choice that she was a toxic person in his life and he rejected her. 

Edited December 25, 2016 by Melancholy

[TwirlyGirly]

On ‎9‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 10:20 AM, Aloeonatable said:

This was my impression when I saw this scene the first time 15 years ago. Yes, what Jess said was inappropriate, but at the same time understandable. Here was this woman telling him how lucky he was to be sent someplace he didn't want to be and with someone he barely knew. I suppose she meant well, but it came across as so condescending.

Lorelai considers herself an "expert" in childrearing (compared to Luke) because she raised Rory. I think in Lorelai's mind, because of that she assumed Luke would rely on her "expertise" in terms of parenting Jess. Also, as others have mentioned here, Lorelai felt that because other teens saw her as the "cool mom," Jess would also see her that way. I now see this scene as Lorelai becoming upset with Jess (and her overreaction) as coming from her realization that she would not be able to "manage" Jess and his relationship with Luke, which is what she thought her role would be.

(I know these are old posts, but I decided to reread this thread from the beginning, and realized I have some insights now I didn't have when they were first posted)

On ‎9‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 5:27 PM, RachelKM said:

<snip> Lorelai's Graduation Day is the perfect example.  Lorelai tells Rory that her parents wouldn't want to go because it's not what they imagined for her and she threw the life they planned for her in there faces by getting pregnant, not going to a ivy league college,  and not marrying  Chris.  Rory invites them and Emily being Emily hires a camera man annoying Lorelai with her excess and there's some douchebage complaining about rich privilege with which Lorelai is dodging being associate .  And then, Lorelai sees her parents in the audience as she is about to switch her tassel and Richard is beaming at her and Emily is about to cry and Lorelai seems to get it and smiles at them..... flash forward 5 years and you'd think they'd sent the graduation invitations back torn into pieces with a severed head of pet rather than showing up and being moved to tears the way Lorelai still insists they didn't want her around or to be in the life she chose for herself. 

I see this as another example of Lorelai not gaining any insight or growth in terms of her relationship with her parents (and their personalities) in the years after she left, and her inability to recognize/acknowledge they might have grown and gained some insight in intervening years. But she does this with other people, too. IMO, once Lorelai thinks she has you "figured out," that's it. She doesn't consider re-evaluating her opinion when new information enters her sphere of reference (at least not easily).

On ‎9‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 9:59 PM, random chance said:

Aggghhhh that was the one Lorelai thing I ever empathized with!  I too would rather have a Certs for dinner than have to make small talk.  It's got nothing to do with the people themselves, it's just the excruciating job of thinking up things to say and then trying to think up a response to the things other people come up with.  "So what brings you here?  Isn't this weather nice?  Did you enjoy the pumpkin spice muffins?  Are you here with your husband?"  I'm not good at it.  I need a small talk ghostwriter.

I can't imagine that Lorelai would have stuck with Trix if Trix treated her like she treated Emily.  Trix often made Emily look soft.

Small talk can be  easy. First of all, you have to have a real interest in other people. I've always approached small talk with the idea that everybody can teach me something. Second, remember most people love to talk about themselves (beyond the "Where do you live? What do you do?" stuff).

When engaging with someone for the first time, always ask them a question immediately after you've answered theirs. (This is presuming they asked the first question, but to ensure you control the discussion, it's better to get in the habit of being the one who asks first!).

Think up a few good questions beyond the same-old, tired questions mentioned above. Memorize them and practice them. A good one is "What is one thing most people don't know about you that you wish they did?"

Listen carefully to the answer the person gives (IOW, don't be [metaphorically] like Lorelai when Debbie Fincher calls her to ask her to speak at Stars Hollow High! Lorelai asks Debbie a question, then puts the phone down WHILE DEBBIE IS TALKING and has a conversation with Rory - completely ignoring Debbie's response). Usually, if you ask a good leading question, the answer will contain prompts for more questions you can ask.

On ‎9‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 10:24 AM, junienmomo said:

It's OK here to love Lorelai and hate some of the things she does. I'm exceedingly grateful for this thread because on too many venues I've criticized her for things already mentioned here, but got pushback along the lines of "if you don't absolutely love her and think she's perfect, why do you even watch the show" or "I don't want to hear that talk about her here."

<snip>

A good response to that is mentioning people analyze and criticize literary characters all the time, but can still enjoy the book overall.

These are just four older posts I picked out from the first two pages....as I continue rereading through the thread, I'm sure I'll find more to respond to!

[Eeksquire]

Quote

Usually, if you ask a good leading question, the answer will contain prompts for more questions you can ask.

Ah, spoken like a true natural extrovert! (I say that with love.  Small talk is also a struggle for me, especially in situations where I will never see the people in question again - it's such an effort for me, why bother?)

[Melancholy]

Lorelai is a classic extrovert, though. I think her problem making small talk in that ep is that she felt smugly superior to old squares who would vacation at the Cheshire Cat. In her defense, a little, Lorelai was going through a rough period. This was her get away trip from planned nuptials with Max. She made her bed but she felt brittle and edgy and defensive about her life and crabby that this vacation wasn't allowing her to decompress/run away. Who wants to make small talk with strangers about life while they were detonating their own? I empathize with her on that level. Not so much the level that Lorelai feels default smugly superior.  

Edited December 27, 2016 by Melancholy

[JaggedLilPill]

It is slightly hypocritical and ironic considering that Lorelai comes from the Quirkiest Town Ever with the Nosiest Townspeople Ever and yet, she's talking about the B&B people.

However, with that being said, I'd probably be thinking please leave me alone if those people cornered me and started asking me all about my personal life. Even if Lorelai hadn't just dumped her fiance, some people just really don't want to interact with others when they're on a vacation. Like no, just because we're staying at the same hotel doesn't mean I want to be best friends with you. Same thing when you're sitting next to someone on an airplane. It's like ugh. Funny enough, my mom would be that person and I'd be the one going "Uh huh, wow, that's...great..."

The problem was (and still is) ASP writing characters as 'quirky' when really, they're just invasive and rude. 

[random chance]

8 minutes ago, JaggedLilPill said:

Same thing when you're sitting next to someone on an airplane.

Oh my God yes. I started reading a book before I even sat down just in case I got one of the chatty ones.

We've never seen Lorelai on a plane, have we? What a missed opportunity there.

[Melancholy]

1 hour ago, JaggedLilPill said:

It is slightly hypocritical and ironic considering that Lorelai comes from the Quirkiest Town Ever with the Nosiest Townspeople Ever and yet, she's talking about the B&B people.

However, with that being said, I'd probably be thinking please leave me alone if those people cornered me and started asking me all about my personal life. Even if Lorelai hadn't just dumped her fiance, some people just really don't want to interact with others when they're on a vacation. Like no, just because we're staying at the same hotel doesn't mean I want to be best friends with you. Same thing when you're sitting next to someone on an airplane. It's like ugh. Funny enough, my mom would be that person and I'd be the one going "Uh huh, wow, that's...great..."

The problem was (and still is) ASP writing characters as 'quirky' when really, they're just invasive and rude. 

Yes. I'll also add that Lorelai is pretty much always "On" when it comes to charming and making small talk with strangers, acquaintances, and friends in her roles as Manager of the Independence Inn and resident Stars Hallow celebrity bon vivant which is also part of her business persona. I can see why she wouldn't want to make small talk and ingratiate herself with Inn/B&B guests on vacation when that's part of her work.

However, yeah, it's not just that Lorelai wasn't in the mood to hang with the B&B guests and owners. She had unjustified hypocritical contempt for them. It arguably showed growth that Lorelai was nice and non-judgmental of the Wild women even though they were providing plenty of material for some smug, mean but funny, sharp-on-others but obtuse-on-self Lorelai Snark Routine. Call it growth or call it that Lorelai didn't bring a snark partner like Rory or a boyfriend to hear her material behind the Wild women's back. 

Edited December 27, 2016 by Melancholy

[Smad]

On 24.12.2016 at 4:40 PM, BunnyEars81 said:

Lorelai Gilmore is possibly one of the most obnoxious, self centered, immature, annoying, selfish bitches ever written. What makes it all the more annoying and insulting is the fact that people just let her get away with it. Not ONE person on the show calls her on her deplorable behavior. Like many of you have mentioned, she frequently high jacks other people's special events and makes them about her. Like Sookie's kid's christening, Lane's wedding was also high jacked by her incessant need for attention. She just had to get up and drunkenly ramble on complete nonesense about how SHE wasn't ever going to get married during the toast at someone else's wedding. What's more baffling is why people continue to invite her to anything. She clearly thinks she's just the most adorable thing ever and that her selfish annoying antics are to just be accepted because, duh, she's her. The entire time we are supposed to intensely dislike Emily and Richard, but I don't. While they can be pushy, they mean well and do everything that they do out of love. If I were Lorelai's parents, I'd hate her.  She's terrible. She's your average self centered, priveledged brat that uses her parents when it's convenient for her. She is really just the worst. If I were to write down every time Lorelai did something mind numbingly selfish, I'd have to basically recap every episode. My favorite is when she breaks up with Luke, sleeps with Christopher like, immediately, and then has the nerve to act like the victim. The show should have ended with the townspeople running her out of town because they are tired of her rude, selfish, self centered ass doing nothing but taking and taking with no regard to anyone else. I HATE Lorelai Gilmore. Worst character ever.

I would agree with most of that except (and it hurts to defend Lorelai here) that her need for attention seems to come directly from the lack of attention and emotional abuse/non-attention she got during childhood. We know that Richard got up, went to work and came home all without any contact with his daughter really. Emily's only form of love is conditional love. And a lot of the hardship of parenting seemed to fall on maids etc. Also which child's first sentence is 'big head, want dolly'. Who tells their child they are 'deformed' so much it becomes their first sentence? However childhood is never an excuse for me when it comes to adults.

On 24.12.2016 at 11:51 PM, Melancholy said:

Luke does come close but he doesn't cut it. It's not the second half of S6 that drops him off my list because I'm sympathetic to him there but instead, his weird physically violent outbursts. That's my biggest problem with him.

I think it's just something the Paladino's associate with being male. Daniel doesn't strike me as much of a manly man so 'real men' must be all violent. However Luke's worst offenses (aside from absolute OOC-ness like head locking Dean) don't start for me until he starts dating Lorelai (go figure). Other than that I just chalk it up to the typical character inconsistencies. After all Luke himself said he hasn't gotten into a fight since 6th grade or something when talking to Jess after the bachelor party.

[Melancholy]

40 minutes ago, Smad said:

I think it's just something the Paladino's associate with being male. Daniel doesn't strike me as much of a manly man so 'real men' must be all violent. However Luke's worst offenses (aside from absolute OOC-ness like head locking Dean) don't start for me until he starts dating Lorelai (go figure). Other than that I just chalk it up to the typical character inconsistencies. After all Luke himself said he hasn't gotten into a fight since 6th grade or something when talking to Jess after the bachelor party.

I think of myself as very partisan for Luke but I think he's more than violent enough that I think it's a character trait instead of something OOC. And dating Lorelai didn't make him violent- it just gave him a big provocation point in the Macho Manner of "Man fight over woman, Man Angrily Mopes Over Woman".

Luke overrates his non-violence. We know that he's gotten into a physical fight between 6th grade and the end of S4- The fight with Dean in S1 and Jess didn't have a chance to fight back because Luke pushed him into a lake but that's physical violence.  

I do agree that most of the Gilmore Girls love interests have violent impulses- Christopher, Jess, Dean, Richard, Luke. I actually think Luke may be the *most* violent of them all, although it's hard to tell because he has a considerably bigger role over the whole life of the show and he's exposed to far more stressors and conflicts. I agree that it's part of a twisted conception of masculinity on the part of the Palladinos. Beta, clearly not contenders for endgame, sort of prissy and ridiculous Max and Jason had no violent altercations. However that was just part and parcel of their placeholder positions. Unless I'm forgetting something, let's hear it for Logan who was very much an alpha and desirable strong man but never got violent with anyone except for his "Gilmore, give them back their balls!" skit where he was actually sort of mocking this "Fist fight over a woman" trope. 

Edited December 27, 2016 by Melancholy

[Kohola3]

54 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

Unless I'm forgetting something, let's hear it for Logan who was very much an alpha and desirable strong man but never got violent with anyone except for his "Gilmore, give them back their balls!" skit where he was actually sort of mocking this "Fist fight over a woman" trope. 

While he was physically non-violent, he used humiliation as his assault tactic.  He was downright insulting to both Marty and Jess and used his moneyed status to lord it over those he viewed as beneath him.  It is as bad as violence since the purpose is to make the targets feel small.

[Smad]

3 hours ago, Melancholy said:

I think of myself as very partisan for Luke but I think he's more than violent enough that I think it's a character trait instead of something OOC. And dating Lorelai didn't make him violent- it just gave him a big provocation point in the Macho Manner of "Man fight over woman, Man Angrily Mopes Over Woman".

Luke overrates his non-violence. We know that he's gotten into a physical fight between 6th grade and the end of S4- The fight with Dean in S1 and Jess didn't have a chance to fight back because Luke pushed him into a lake but that's physical violence.  

I do agree that most of the Gilmore Girls love interests have violent impulses- Christopher, Jess, Dean, Richard, Luke. I actually think Luke may be the *most* violent of them all, although it's hard to tell because he has a considerably bigger role over the whole life of the show and he's exposed to far more stressors and conflicts. I agree that it's part of a twisted conception of masculinity on the part of the Palladinos. Beta, clearly not contenders for endgame, sort of prissy and ridiculous Max and Jason had no violent altercations. However that was just part and parcel of their placeholder positions. Unless I'm forgetting something, let's hear it for Logan who was very much an alpha and desirable strong man but never got violent with anyone except for his "Gilmore, give them back their balls!" skit where he was actually sort of mocking this "Fist fight over a woman" trope. 

See for me there is a difference pre- and post-Lorelai dating. I still regard the Dean head lock as major OOC and not anything that resembles S1 Luke. I don't see pushing someone in a lake as violent unless you push them right into a bunch of rocks. If this counts as violent I'm a very violent person because I still do that, with friends anyway. Mostly Luke's outbursts used to be of a vocal nature, whether that's yelling at Jess, Lorelai or Jimmy for example. Aside from the OOC Dean headlock the only other 2 physical altercations I can remember is stopping Jess and TJ from getting into a fight and kicking a guys car not even strong enough to leave a scratch (note he didn't attack the guy). But once he started dating Lorelai he yelled at elderly ladies, according to Lane he kicked a lady with a walker out of his diner, 2 physical altercations with Dopey and I'm not even going to touch the character assassination. Generally most men became worse for being around Lorelai (and yes I do mean Lorelai ll and lll). And it seems for the Palladinos Alpha Man means violent and loud. Beta means quippy puppy dog. No shades of grey.

But this is terribly off topic..sorry about that.

Edited December 28, 2016 by Smad

[junienmomo]

7 hours ago, Smad said:

2 physical altercations with Dopey

LOL. Dopey. Didn't have to think for more than a split second about this one.

To make this post a little productive, I will comment that Lorelai showed great patience with her mother when she was shanghai'ed into therapy with her. Also that Luke getting Lorelai to realize what she'd agree to is one of the memorably sweet moments of the season.

[qtpye]

Lorelai Gilmore can be aggravating and infuriating and sometimes I actually want to reach through my screen and shake her.  Often, the only thing that saves the character is that she is portrayed by the awesome Lauren Graham.

However, I think I have an unique take on the character that explains her to some degree for me.

My father was extremely well educated and successful man.  He provided a solid middle class background for my childhood (my mother also worked), though of course nothing near the level of Gilmore wealth.  My father never drank, smoked, had affairs, beat us, or hid a secret family.  He was the ideal father on paper.  I knew he loved me and would do anything for me to some extent.

However, I knew my father never liked me.  He resented having a child and probably just had me because at that time childless married couples were looked down upon.

To give you an idea, when I became a young adult (early twenties) I started to feel guilty about not having a better relationship with my father, who seemed so good on paper...so I asked him to join me for a move that I knew he wanted to see.  I left my grueling 10 hour work day, fought the worst of rush hour traffic to go to a movie theater near where he lived.  I waited and my father never showed up.  He did not have a reason not to come, he just relished the idea of humiliating me in that respect and gleefully admitted to it.

I am not saying that Richard and Emily were as bad as my father, but this explains almost all of Lorelai's actions.  She is obsessed with her daughter and made sure that they were best friends and dare I say, soul mates?  This relationships drives her entire life.  This is also why she is so damn self centered and needy.  She rejects everyone that does not immediately embrace her brand of quirkiness , so she does not have to deal with them rejecting her first.

On the subject of fathers, because Lorelai was so obsessed with Rory, she gave Christopher what ever 16 year old boy who has stupidly had unprotected sex and gotten their girlfriend pregnant longs for, an out.  He did not have to be a part of Rory's life, but could live with the satisfaction that she was being well cared for in his absence.

Lorelai even acknowledges that Rory is the daughter Emily and Richard wished for and that is why they want a relationship with her. 

This does not give the character a pass on her bad behavior, but it does explain some of her actions and viewpoints.

[hippielamb]

5 hours ago, qtpye said:

Lorelai Gilmore can be aggravating and infuriating and sometimes I actually want to reach through my screen and shake her.  Often, the only thing that saves the character is that she is portrayed by the awesome Lauren Graham.

However, I think I have an unique take on the character that explains her to some degree for me.

My father was extremely well educated and successful man.  He provided a solid middle class background for my childhood (my mother also worked), though of course nothing near the level of Gilmore wealth.  My father never drank, smoked, had affairs, beat us, or hid a secret family.  He was the ideal father on paper.  I knew he loved me and would do anything for me to some extent.

However, I knew my father never liked me.  He resented having a child and probably just had me because at that time childless married couples were looked down upon.

To give you an idea, when I became a young adult (early twenties) I started to feel guilty about not having a better relationship with my father, who seemed so good on paper...so I asked him to join me for a move that I knew he wanted to see.  I left my grueling 10 hour work day, fought the worst of rush hour traffic to go to a movie theater near where he lived.  I waited and my father never showed up.  He did not have a reason not to come, he just relished the idea of humiliating me in that respect and gleefully admitted to it.

I am not saying that Richard and Emily were as bad as my father, but this explains almost all of Lorelai's actions.  She is obsessed with her daughter and made sure that they were best friends and dare I say, soul mates?  This relationships drives her entire life.  This is also why she is so damn self centered and needy.  She rejects everyone that does not immediately embrace her brand of quirkiness , so she does not have to deal with them rejecting her first.

On the subject of fathers, because Lorelai was so obsessed with Rory, she gave Christopher what ever 16 year old boy who has stupidly had unprotected sex and gotten their girlfriend pregnant longs for, an out.  He did not have to be a part of Rory's life, but could live with the satisfaction that she was being well cared for in his absence.

Lorelai even acknowledges that Rory is the daughter Emily and Richard wished for and that is why they want a relationship with her. 

This does not give the character a pass on her bad behavior, but it does explain some of her actions and viewpoints.

I so agree with this. I think Amy said once that Lorelai is the way she is because of Emily and Richard. Also, that Emily is the way she is because Lorelai left and cut off most contact with them for 15 years. Lorelai purposely has the close parental/friend relationship with Rory that she never got with her parents. Some can say it's unhealthy but so is the dysfunction that is the Gilmores relationship with their daughter. 

Richard I am more lenient on because I had a distant workaholic father too. I know he loved me but I rarely saw him. He lived in another country and I didn't get to know him until I was a teenager. Fathers on this show (with the exception of Luke) are mostly a distant lot. Richard, Christopher, Christopher's dad Straub, Mitchum, Tristan's father, Paris' father, etc. It's a real theme. 

[junienmomo]

4 hours ago, hippielamb said:

Also, that Emily is the way she is because Lorelai left and cut off most contact with them for 15 years.

Geez. Emily turned herself into her own bitter monster because she couldn't put things aside. We saw her repeatedly try to maintain a behavioral choke hold on Lorelai, even when she was an adult. There were a few occasions when Emily tried to be understanding but the writers never let that last long. What a sad life Emily made for herself.

[shron17]

11 hours ago, hippielamb said:

I think Amy said once that Lorelai is the way she is because of Emily and Richard. Also, that Emily is the way she is because Lorelai left and cut off most contact with them for 15 years. Lorelai purposely has the close parental/friend relationship with Rory that she never got with her parents.

I would agree with this, but think it also ties into the similar personalities of Emily and Lorelai.  They are both life managers--they like to be in charge of their lives and those close to them and for the most part they're very good at it.  Emily managed all their lives into the way she thought best and expected Lorelai to be an extension of that life and confirmation that she got it right.  But it wasn't "right" for Lorelai, even as a child.  Lorelai always said she didn't want that life, but it came more from her strong inclination to create and manage her own life.   When the strip turned pink she became an adult because now she had another person to be responsible for and another life to manage.  She rejected Richard's plan to marry Christopher and live the Gilmore way because she was already planning how to escape and create a completely different life where she could raise her daughter in the way she thought best.

7 hours ago, junienmomo said:

What a sad life Emily made for herself.

True, because she really needed that confirmation from Lorelai (or Rory) that her way was the best way all along.

[qtpye]

I love the actress that played Emily, but I actually can not think of anything more pathetic then having to bribe your children to have dinner with you.  She also hated Lorelai's rejection of her life and took it has a total rejection of her.  She very much enjoyed maintaining a perfect facade.  I would either loan the money with normal stipulations of having it paid back or refuse.

Lorelai probably always felt that she was failure in everything her parents held dear.  In her shoes, I would tell Rory that Chilton was not possible for people of their means.  I would never ask my parent's for money.  Many people have amazing lives who never attended an elite private school.

Of course, we would have never had this show if these characters were not emotionally stunted.

[timimouse]

19 hours ago, qtpye said:

I love the actress that played Emily, but I actually can not think of anything more pathetic then having to bribe your children to have dinner with you.  She also hated Lorelai's rejection of her life and took it has a total rejection of her.  She very much enjoyed maintaining a perfect facade.  I would either loan the money with normal stipulations of having it paid back or refuse.

Lorelai probably always felt that she was failure in everything her parents held dear.  In her shoes, I would tell Rory that Chilton was not possible for people of their means.  I would never ask my parent's for money.  Many people have amazing lives who never attended an elite private school.

1) I didn't see it as pathetic, but more as the act of a desperate woman, which to me made her character more interesting. Emily so badly wanted to be a part of her daughter and granddaughter's lives that she felt she had to essentially bribe them for it. And I think that throughout the series we got glimpses of why she felt she had to go that route. I'm not saying Emily was perfect by any means, but I don't think she's as pathetic and horrible as some see her.

2) I think the "Rory has to go to Chilton to get into Harvard" story was definitely contrived, and I would have loved to see what would have happened had she NOT gotten into Harvard after everything they did trying to make that happen. I also believe that her going to Yale was all part of ASP's "Full Freaking Circle" grand plan and the age old nature vs. nurture debate, as Rory didn't grow up in that environment yet seemed drawn into so many aspects of it.

[Lady Calypso]

21 hours ago, qtpye said:

I love the actress that played Emily, but I actually can not think of anything more pathetic then having to bribe your children to have dinner with you.  She also hated Lorelai's rejection of her life and took it has a total rejection of her.  She very much enjoyed maintaining a perfect facade.  I would either loan the money with normal stipulations of having it paid back or refuse.

Lorelai probably always felt that she was failure in everything her parents held dear.  In her shoes, I would tell Rory that Chilton was not possible for people of their means.  I would never ask my parent's for money.  Many people have amazing lives who never attended an elite private school.

Of course, we would have never had this show if these characters were not emotionally stunted.

Very true. It is actually a little pathetic but also very sad that Emily has to bribe Lorelai and Rory into coming over once a week. But, in hindsight, it makes sense. Emily and Richard had essentially been deprived of getting to know their granddaughter. Besides I'm guessing Christmas and Easter, it doesn't sound like Lorelai visited often. Sure, Emily and Richard, in their own Gilmore stubbornness, didn't find ways earlier to form a relationship (supposedly), but I can see why Emily took that opportunity of Lorelai asking for money to finally get to know not just Rory, but Lorelai as well. Lorelai made the choice to cease contact with her parents. She let Rory see them a couple of times a year, which is better than cutting all contact with them, but it's still a very unhealthy way to deal with family. That entire family is to blame for what happened. It's sad to see how fractured that family is throughout the series, but especially pre-series. 

[Melancholy]

At any rate, I think the later seasons bear out that Lorelai realized that she likes having a regular relationship with her parents. She didn't have to keep going to dinner or keep associating with them once the Chilton debt was paid.  I think Lorelai actually likes the "Mozart, mindgames? Good times" standard battle of wits, insult trading, constant intrigue of dinner. Plus, the cocktails and big dinner. A big part of how Lorelai has fun is bickering, snarking, feeling superior, and feeling her company is desperately sought after- and her parents, especially Emily, deliver that in spades. 

While she's an independent person who did a lot on her own, she was unbelievably charmed at how they could and would support Rory to the hilt and even she wanted parental support deep down at certain moments. There are times where Emily is just too unbearable and Lorelai responds by cutting off contact or getting angry enough that there's no comedy to the battle. 

Just because Lorelai acted like she was compelled to post Chilton FNDs to see Rory (even though college Rory was constantly in Stars Hallow and Lorelai interacted with her parents plenty when Rory wasn't there) or just because martyrdom reasons doesn't mean I bought it. As long as Lorelai wasn't feeling consequences or OTT hurt from her parents' flaws and snobbery, she was having her own fun with the flaws and snobbery. 

[qtpye]

I also think part of it is that Lorelai was proud to have raised what she and her parents would think of as the perfect daughter.  Rory was everything the Gilmores wanted in a child.  It was her way of saying I am a better mother then you will ever be to Emily, even with your nannies and money.  Ironically, it would have been a different story if Rory was the wildfire rebel that Lorelai was when she was young.

[Guest]

I think the forced dinner as terms showed a vulnerability to Emily.  I think it added to the character.  Yes, it was pathetic.  But I think it was necessary to keep her from being too much of a one-note character that first few episodes. Part of what I like about GG is that they are multi-faceted characters. There are very few villains and no real heroes. 

[junienmomo]

It wasn't a bribe (neither was it blackmail). Emily simply negotiated harder than Lorelai. Lorelai didn't even make a counter offer. Emily then made an effort to be civil and build the relationship in the first season, which was later replaced by soap opera Emily. 

Lorelai entered into the agreement without thinking about the consequences as usual. No doubt she took a delight in sharpening her wit, but the reasons she kept coming back after the loan was paid were specious. Occasionally I wondered if she were putting herself into a Stockholm Syndrome mode, going to justify her victim status. It annoys me when I think of how easily she gave in on the non-reason of meeting Logan, which came at the expense of accepting Emily's continued dislike of Luke, which I found to be disrespectful of him. 

I'd like to say an adult wouldn't act that way, but then I think of Emily's behavior and logic fails me. 

[Melancholy]

33 minutes ago, junienmomo said:

It wasn't a bribe (neither was it blackmail). Emily simply negotiated harder than Lorelai. Lorelai didn't even make a counter offer. Emily then made an effort to be civil and build the relationship in the first season, which was later replaced by soap opera Emily. 

Lorelai entered into the agreement without thinking about the consequences as usual. No doubt she took a delight in sharpening her wit, but the reasons she kept coming back after the loan was paid were specious. Occasionally I wondered if she were putting herself into a Stockholm Syndrome mode, going to justify her victim status. It annoys me when I think of how easily she gave in on the non-reason of meeting Logan, which came at the expense of accepting Emily's continued dislike of Luke, which I found to be disrespectful of him. 

I'd like to say an adult wouldn't act that way, but then I think of Emily's behavior and logic fails me. 

I dislike how Lorelai handled aspects of Emily v. Luke like Lorelai sitting there while Emily trashed Luke all night in I Jump, You Jump Jack instead of defending him like Logan did for Rory or Rory did for Dean. Apparently so Lorelai could have her gleeful "Told you so!" with Luke on the way out. The fact that Emily's insults were thinly veiled means nothing.

However I don't think Lorelai disrespected Luke by continuing to see her parents after she reconciled with Luke. Luke acknowledged that Lorelai's parents will always be in her life. He accepted that 100%.  Given that he lost his parents so young, he clearly didn't want to be the reason Lorelai permanently broke off contact with her mother over a grudge on past actions. And it would be a grudge, even if it was a righteous one- Emily was never fond of Luke but she did keep her promise to accept their relationship. And Lorelai only reinitiated contact with Emily after she had good reason to believe that Emily wouldn't interfere anymore with their relationship. The world is full of offspring who still have relationships with their parents even though the parents have visible dislike and contempt for their spouse/SO. It's the "Meet the Parents" way of the world. As long as Emily wasn't conspiring against L/L, I think Lorelai can join that phenomenon without doing wrong. 

Edited December 30, 2016 by Melancholy

[chocolatine]

The thing that bugged me most about Lorelai was her hypocrisy about money and privilege. While I'm not taking away from the success she achieved on her own, she felt very much entitled to things that were far above her means as a lower-middle-class hospitality worker, like private school tuition for her child and help with opening/expanding her business. She repeatedly accepted help from her parents while scoffing at everything that afforded them - and her - that kind of money. Either take the money and admit that it's a privilege, or don't take the money and take pride in being truly self-sufficient.

Ironically, after watching the revival, but even in S6/7, I think Rory would have fared better in adulthood if she hadn't had everything handed to her by Lorelai (and Richard and Emily).

[junienmomo]

On 12/30/2016 at 7:21 PM, Melancholy said:

I dislike how Lorelai handled aspects of Emily v. Luke like Lorelai sitting there while Emily trashed Luke all night in I Jump, You Jump Jack instead of defending him like Logan did for Rory or Rory did for Dean. Apparently so Lorelai could have her gleeful "Told you so!" with Luke on the way out. The fact that Emily's insults were thinly veiled means nothing.

However I don't think Lorelai disrespected Luke by continuing to see her parents after she reconciled with Luke. Luke acknowledged that Lorelai's parents will always be in her life. He accepted that 100%.  

I meant that she disrespect the relationship more than the person. A fine line, to be sure, but I would have liked to see her bring up the subject to him at least. Instead, she went back for the Logan reason, which was stupid beyond belief. She could have had Logan over before that FND and trumped Emily.

Next thing we knew, Lorelai is back in with her family and Luke is cut out, or as Emily spins it, she's staying out of it. Rory doesn't invite him to her birthday party, Lorelai doesn't tell Rory that she's bringing him, and when he encounters Emily at the party, she shows her disgust in a way I would describe as very rude and not at all staying out of it. I blame Lorelai for not making that clear to either Rory or Emily that she was bringing a plus one.

The next thing we know is they go to the You've Been Gilmored dinner, and suddenly they're talking to him?

I hate season six for its lack of logic as well as its general horribleness.

[Melancholy]

2 hours ago, junienmomo said:

I meant that she disrespect the relationship more than the person. A fine line, to be sure, but I would have liked to see her bring up the subject to him at least. Instead, she went back for the Logan reason, which was stupid beyond belief. She could have had Logan over before that FND and trumped Emily.

Next thing we knew, Lorelai is back in with her family and Luke is cut out, or as Emily spins it, she's staying out of it. Rory doesn't invite him to her birthday party, Lorelai doesn't tell Rory that she's bringing him, and when he encounters Emily at the party, she shows her disgust in a way I would describe as very rude and not at all staying out of it. I blame Lorelai for not making that clear to either Rory or Emily that she was bringing a plus one.

The next thing we know is they go to the You've Been Gilmored dinner, and suddenly they're talking to him?

I hate season six for its lack of logic as well as its general horribleness.

First, I never quite believed the Logan-reason. I think Lorelai missed FNDs and being in the loop with all the intrigue and being part of the drama and being included in family events and Logan was a symbol of all of that. For all we know, Lorelai did tell Luke that she was returning to FNDs and Luke basically reiterated his consistent position which was that he never expected or wanted Lorelai to cut her parents out of her life and he's fine with Lorelai renewing their relationship. I don't need to see that scene to assume that it happened. 

As for the birthday party, that makes sense to me too. At the end of S5, it appears they worked out a system where Lorelai would see her parents but Luke wouldn't see them. In the couple months that Lorelai and her parents reconciled in S5 from the Wedding Bell Blues fiasco but before the Rory-moving-in-breach, Luke's role didn't seem to be discussed. That seems normal to me. Lorelai was just renewing contact with her parents after taking a stand that she intended to pick Luke over them and cut them out. However, that process was aborted by the S6 breach. At that point, Rory didn't know if Luke would attend her birthday party at her grandparents' house. Rory previously made a stab at reaching out to Luke, and had to run out of the diner because it was too painful to sit with him and go over how her mother's life is going by without her because Lorelai cut Rory off. So, I get why Rory didn't want to discuss an invite with Luke because she was burned before. I get why Lorelai didn't tell Rory or Emily that she was bringing Luke because Lorelai was in and actually commanded the silent-treatment. Lorelai wasn't going to have any more conversations with either Emily or Lorelai other than the explicit gesture of attending the party. Of course, one of the results is that Luke felt needlessly awkward and dragged around according to Lorelai's feelings. However, that's endemic in how Luke was in the middle of Lorelai's war with her entire family, especially Rory, which he did point out. That's not a lack of logic. That's the general story about the crappy communication and fights between the characters. And, here, Luke was incredibly aware and cognizant that this temporary ceasefire was very fraught and awkward for Lorelai and Rory and he was putting his own feelings and needs aside to support the Girls whether that meant taking Rory's phone call screaming at him in stride, swallowing the insults at the party, or allowing Lorelai to pull link sausages out of him. The ep makes it clear that things are harder for him because of this feud. 

In You've Been Gilmored, Luke doesn't suddenly meet the parents. Emily insists that if Luke and Lorelai are to be married, he needs to reconnect with E/R at a FND and then, laid down enough heavy guilt gunfire of "Are you sure you want to marry someone who refuses to do the basics of being a son in law?" that I see it guilting Lorelai enough that she didn't think Luke could sit this FND out. Here, however, I think there's enough evidence in the episode that Lorelai was an asshole about it and basically just commanded Luke to attend the dinner instead of checking with his feelings or doing something similar to Rory in Swan Song where she made Emily promise that she'd be nice to Jess. (Rory does stuff like defend Dean loudly and fervently in front of him or make Emily promise to be good to Jess that protects her boyfriends far more than Lorelai does with E/R for all that Lorelai is the more brass, confrontational person with the elder Gilmores.) However, I think that fits with her demeanor in the ep. It's in a similar vein to how "no good deed goes unpunished" when Luke volunteered to spend spare time fixing necessary things at the Dragonfly so Lorelai's business could save some money and then, got rooked into doing four pages worth of unnecessary and needless tasks so Michele's tantrum would be rewarded and he could feel like the boss of a handyman. (Even if Lorelai wanted to soothe Michele's feelings/give into his tantrum about making the list and getting to boss around the handyman, Lorelai didn't need to subject Luke to it. She could have engaged the paid handyman that Michele missed for the dumb tasks.) The two storylines go together enough and they're actually linked with Lorelai's whole, "If you do this list, it'll make me happy and I'll give that happiness back to you *in bed*....after you spend three hours with my parents" that it doesn't feel like a random accident.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Melancholy

[Aloeonatable]

On December 24, 2016 at 7:40 AM, BunnyEars81 said:

Not ONE person on the show calls her on her deplorable behavior.

Jess did, when she condescendingly equated her teen year behavior to his in NN/SN. And we know how that turned out. 

[random chance]

2 minutes ago, Aloeonatable said:

Jess did, when she condescendingly equated her teen year behavior to his in NN/SN. And we know how that turned out. 

When I was watching the picnic basket episode the other day and Lorelai was going on about Jess being a hoodlum it finally occurred to me - she talked about him like he had a criminal record, when actually all his hoodlum activities were things like that chalk outline outside of Doosey's - exactly the kind of thing that Lorelai herself would have done at his age, to hear her talk anyway. I was so used to just thinking of him as the dangerous edgy hoodlum that it took all this time for it to dawn on me that I was going by Lorelai's description, not any actual facts in evidence.

[ChlcGirl]

20 hours ago, random chance said:

When I was watching the picnic basket episode the other day and Lorelai was going on about Jess being a hoodlum it finally occurred to me - she talked about him like he had a criminal record, when actually all his hoodlum activities were things like that chalk outline outside of Doosey's - exactly the kind of thing that Lorelai herself would have done at his age, to hear her talk anyway. I was so used to just thinking of him as the dangerous edgy hoodlum that it took all this time for it to dawn on me that I was going by Lorelai's description, not any actual facts in evidence.

Oh I don't know.  He also took a donation jar of money and Babette's gnome.  The gnome is silly, but he still stole.  He also flunked out of school.  While I think Lorelai was ridiculous in her interactions with Jess, he still isn't the kind of kid I'd want mine to be hanging out with.

[Pam Poovey]

On 1/3/2017 at 11:04 PM, ChlcGirl said:

he still isn't the kind of kid I'd want mine to be hanging out with.

I'm guessing there would have been parents who didn't want their children hanging out with teenage Lorelai either, both pre and post pregnancy. You would think she might muster up some sympathy for a bad-but-not-really-bad smart-mouth teen with family troubles and a "I'm too cool and nobody understands me" attitude. Perhaps Jess reminded Lorelai too much of herself, and not in a good way. 

Edited January 4, 2017 by Pam Poovey

[Melancholy]

I would have had more respect for Lorelai if she just accepted that she agreed with Emily and set hard and fast rules that Rory couldn't associate with Jess until she believed he was improving his behavior and then, just stayed out of it. Lorelai couldn't just be a typical parent and set those rules so she instead decided to give Rory freedom to associate with Jess but pout and snipe about it to Rory and Luke, get involved hearing Dean's jealous victim speeches and advocate for Dean as the Best Boyfriend Ever, devolve into these OTT fueds with Jess where she'd scream and call him names and literally declare that she won after he left town on shameful terms after the accident, and basically keep snarking and meanly gossiping like she wanted to hold onto this fued that she "won" even as far younger Jess was growing/had grown past this crap from S4 through the Revival.

Lorelai could have approached all her relationships with more dignity if her attitude was, "Jess is an angry troubled kid. Sounds like he has his reasons for it. I wish Luke the best of luck trying to straighten him out. But my daughter is on a difficult but worthwhile path to get into Harvard. She has enough distractions and potential pitfalls. I'm forbidding Rory to meet with Jess until I'm convinced he won't be a pitfall. This is my right as the parent with more experience in the world." That would probably be hard since Rory and Jess were so infatuated with each other and since the diner afforded more ways to see each other than even the closeness of small town life. However, at least it's a principle instead of disingenuously trying to lay claim to BFFness, temper tantrums, winning teenage fueds, getting up in Luke's business, helicopter parenting, etc. all at the same time to embarrassing results. 

[ChlcGirl]

I agree totally with the above, Melancholy.  I wasnt a Jess fan until he grew up and got his shit together, but I still thought Lorelai acted in a ridiculous manner regarding all things Jess prior to that.  Way to act like an adult, lady.

Edited January 5, 2017 by ChlcGirl