Lorelai Gilmore: The 10(+) Things I Hate About You

[tennisgurl]

That article was really interesting, and I love the idea of Lorelai as a sort of proto anti-hero. GGs might be one of my favorite comfort shows, and I might still love my GGs, but there are certain things that do need a re-evaluation. However, I do question comparing Lorelia to the Don Drapers and Walter Whites of the TV landscape. I think of the Dramatic Anti Heroes as being more goal oriented, and their plots more...plotty. Lorelia is more comparable to the Funny Dysfunctional Narcissistic comedy protagonist, like the cast of Girls, the main couple in Your the Worst, or Barney from How I Met Your Mother. The character who is a funny jerk who screws up their relationships, is extremely self centered, but the audience still likes them because of their one liners, and the sadness and humanity the characters sometimes show. Their dysfunction is sometimes played for laughs, and sometimes played for drama, and its all intentional on the writers part.  With Lorelia, I feel like its not intentional, and we are just supposed to take her as the Best Most Vivacious Person Ever, and all her flaws that have been discussed here were just the writers not realizing how their main character came off. 

On 9/17/2016 at 0:09 PM, Lady Calypso said:

And this lies the issues with early 2000s shows in general. There were a lot more quips and jokes that they got away with. All shows from this era and before had these types of 'jokes' with homophobia, racism, etc. Her issues with therapy and psychiatrists in the later seasons, as well. 

Its honestly pretty shocking to me how homophobic, racist, and sometimes down right awkward a lot of jokes were back then, in what were basically light, frothy shows. I was really young in the early 2000s (like, elementary school), so a lot of this went over my head at the time, but now? Some of the "quips" that were made just come off as, at best engaging in stereotypes, and at worst, extremely ignorant and prejudiced, especially when it came to gay jokes. I watched a lot of Friends over the summer last year, and holy crap! SO MANY gay jokes! If one of the guys dared even imply they enjoyed a play or classic music or something, someone would be like "what are you, a GAY?!?!" and the audience would crack up. GG was not quite that bad, but there are some pretty questionable moments. 

[JayInChicago]

At least Friends had gay characters, like Ross's ex and her partner. I am sort of waiting with a pained expression to see how Amy P n co depict LGBT characters in the revisit--I believe she said there's gonna be some.

Edited September 19, 2016 by JayInChicago
Why do I always say reboot? It's not

[shron17]

8 hours ago, huahaha said:

The numbers show the story. Amy has gotten a lot of chances and maxed out with 18 episodes without Lauren. She's had other good talent to work with like Sutton, Kelly Bishop, Parker Posey, and Lauren Ambrose. Meanwhile, Lauren just went 6 seasons on a major network even though the writing on the show was just OK.

Yes, but you're comparing creating an entire show to acting one part on a new but already created show.  I believe LG attempted to create a show with a role for her that didn't even make it out of the gate.

[huahaha]

2 minutes ago, shron17 said:

Yes, but you're comparing creating an entire show to acting one part on a new but already created show.  I believe LG attempted to create a show with a role for her that didn't even make it out of the gate.

I'm saying that Amy's words (and frenetic pacing) need Lauren, but Lauren doesn't necessarily need Amy.

Show creators are given more chances after they've had a success. It's rarer for an actor to have multiple hit shows because there's always someone younger and cheaper coming up. 

[hippielamb]

On 9/18/2016 at 3:49 PM, huahaha said:

Sutton never asked for input, even when ASP put her in skimpy underwear. "Other actresses" requested negligees. (Sutton would've looked better in a negligee, too, by the way.) Amy also loved that Sutton could do all the dancing and singing scenes, plus play dramatic and comedic notes.

I never saw Bunheads. It aired on a station I didn't have and it was never available on streaming. I was curious about it cos of Kelly Bishop, and the other GG actors that made appearances. It's probably easier for an actor to voice an opinion on their character when the show has been on for a few years. They have a better idea of what that character would say or do. I read that Kelly didn't want to wear the sportswear outfit in the Yale/Harvard episode because she didn't think Emily would wear something like that. 

 

On 9/18/2016 at 4:09 PM, random chance said:

One of the stupidest lines in the entire series. 

Agreed. The worst part about it is Lauren said in an interview that people complimented her about it. Ugh I hate that message. 'Dont have sex, or you will be bad'. It seems to reinforce the viewpoint by other characters that Lorelai is bad for having sex when she was a teen. (Which a lot of kids do) I used to think that line may have been network inteferrence but hearing Amy refer to other tv shows characters as whores just because they are sexually active makes me think it came directly from her. 

[Viqutorious]

Look how they portrayed Shane on Gilmore Girls, it was shameful. Sorry got off topic a bit!

Edited September 20, 2016 by CheeseBurgh

[shron17]

On 9/19/2016 at 0:34 AM, huahaha said:

I'm saying that Amy's words (and frenetic pacing) need Lauren, but Lauren doesn't necessarily need Amy.

Show creators are given more chances after they've had a success. It's rarer for an actor to have multiple hit shows because there's always someone younger and cheaper coming up. 

I don't think the fact that Amy had a few shows that didn't work out but Lauren was an actor on a show that ran for five years proves that.  Maybe Lauren just got a lucky break at the right time for her.  That's great, but doesn't mean it will continue forever.  Meanwhile Amy's next big creation could be right around the corner.  And I'm pretty sure Bunheads didn't get cancelled because Sutton Foster, or any of the other actors, couldn't handle Amy's dialogue.

[FictionLover]

2 hours ago, shron17 said:

I don't think the fact that Amy had a few shows that didn't work out but Lauren was an actor on a show that ran for five years proves that.  Maybe Lauren just got a lucky break at the right time for her.  That's great, but doesn't mean it will continue forever.  Meanwhile Amy's next big creation could be right around the corner.  And I'm pretty sure Bunheads didn't get cancelled because Sutton Foster, or any of the other actors, couldn't handle Amy's dialogue.

LG was not the first choice for Sarah Braverman in Parenthood,  in fact the pilot was first filmed with another actress (she was from ER  but I can't remember her name). She had to step aside due to illness. But I did love her inthe roll, but not as much as Lorelai. 

[random chance]

Maura Tierney - she had breast cancer. She was also on News Radio, as was Lauren Graham.

[Melancholy]

I couldn't get into Parenthood but I adored Bunheads and really mourned its cancellation. I get that Parenthood technically "won" in an important measure because it was on longer but the small audience that did stick with Bunheads were quite devoted. 

To get back on topic, I think it WAS a jerk-move for Lorelai to invite Richard and Emily to a separate bungalow at the Dragonfly when she knew that they were separated. It was cruel and insensitive. I don't think even think that Lorelai was prioritizing them reconciling behind her doing it and I think Lorelai self-righteously adopted that priority after Emily called her out. I think Lorelai was mainly interested in punishing them for being secretive about their separation and dragging the whole thing out of the wood-work. Again, it's a bit of "using family obligation to manipulate" that Lorelai would turn into such a martyr cause celebre if her parents were doing it to her but she feels such license to do against others. 

[Anela]

12 hours ago, CheeseBurgh said:

Look how they portrayed Shane on Gilmore Girls, it was shameful. Sorry got off topic a bit!

I didn't like that, either. 

[Spartan Girl]

Another horrible Lorelai moment: when Rory confronts her about sleeping with Christpher, and Lorelei makes a bunch of "I'm not perfect" and "everyone makes mistakes" excuses, including the little gem comparing to it how Gwenyth Paltrow dyed her hair brown. That was beyond low, even for her, and I'm so glad Rory called her out for it.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Spartan Girl

[timimouse]

One of my biggest nitpicks with Lorelai is her hypocrisy. She has these expectations of others but doesn't live up to them herself. What got me especially was her making a big deal about Luke not communicating with her (eg. after the "Classic Cindy Lauper" serenade) but she didn't make any effort to have a conversation with him either! She talks all the time about the great communication she has with Rory being so much better than that of her and her mother but when it came to Rory's biggest life decisions (dropping out of Yale, marrying Logan, turning down the job in Providence) she decided to say nothing. I'm not saying you should dictate what she does but you should also trust that you can give you daughter/best friend your opinion and she takes it into consideration while still making up her own mind.

[Smad]

I really hate when she makes things about herself that have nothing to with her, like I mentioned previously. I just watched some S4 episodes recently and I really wanted to slap her in ITCATC. So Luke 'moved' and it's all about her. What the hell was that? First of all there is the entitlement that somehow anything that goes on in Luke's life she has a right to know. Very reminiscent of an earlier episode where she basically says in regards to Nicole 'he has to get it through his head that whoever is in his life is in my life too'.  Since when does she ever even ask about what's going on in his life. We never have those kidns of scenes. Literally the only times she even goes there is when he is clearly upset (like the sockman fiasco or being drunk after Jess laid into him), when she has to satisfy her curiosity (like him buying frosted flakes or Liz showing up) or when it involves another woman. Oh and while you are so convinced that whoever is in his life is in yours too, planning on telling him about Jason then? It's only fair, right. But of course not, different rules for other people.

But what really got me in that episode was her complete lack of concern for Luke's emotional well being. Not once did she actually approach the subject of whether all of this Nocole weirdness is actually good for him. Nothing like 'no, this isn't good for you and you might want to sit down and actually sort this whole mess out and I'm here to help if you need me'. Instead it's all 'no, I don't want you to move because it will inconvenience me'.

[FictionLover]

1 hour ago, Smad said:

I really hate when she makes things about herself that have nothing to with her, like I mentioned previously. I just watched some S4 episodes recently and I really wanted to slap her in ITCATC. So Luke 'moved' and it's all about her. What the hell was that? First of all there is the entitlement that somehow anything that goes on in Luke's life she has a right to know. Very reminiscent of an earlier episode where she basically says in regards to Nicole 'he has to get it through his head that whoever is in his life is in my life too'.  Since when does she ever even ask about what's going on in his life. We never have those kidns of scenes. Literally the only times she even goes there is when he is clearly upset (like the sockman fiasco or being drunk after Jess laid into him), when she has to satisfy her curiosity (like him buying frosted flakes or Liz showing up) or when it involves another woman. Oh and while you are so convinced that whoever is in his life is in yours too, planning on telling him about Jason then? It's only fair, right. But of course not, different rules for other people.

But what really got me in that episode was her complete lack of concern for Luke's emotional well being. Not once did she actually approach the subject of whether all of this Nocole weirdness is actually good for him. Nothing like 'no, this isn't good for you and you might want to sit down and actually sort this whole mess out and I'm here to help if you need me'. Instead it's all 'no, I don't want you to move because it will inconvenience me'.

I took Lorelai's behavior when Luke moved as jealousy that blindsided her.

[TimetravellingBW]

I didn't really mind that particular case of Lorelai freaking out over Luke moving because the show actually acknowledged that Lorelai was being unreasonable, and it was more about Lorelai realizing her romantic feelings for Luke and leading up to the big Luke/Lorelai finally-declaring-their-feelings at the end of the season rather than just random selfishness. Plus it provided one of my favourite and most hilarious scenes with the two of them breaking the bells.  

Edited September 22, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[Anela]

2 hours ago, Smad said:

I really hate when she makes things about herself that have nothing to with her, like I mentioned previously. I just watched some S4 episodes recently and I really wanted to slap her in ITCATC. So Luke 'moved' and it's all about her. What the hell was that? First of all there is the entitlement that somehow anything that goes on in Luke's life she has a right to know. Very reminiscent of an earlier episode where she basically says in regards to Nicole 'he has to get it through his head that whoever is in his life is in my life too'.  Since when does she ever even ask about what's going on in his life. We never have those kidns of scenes. Literally the only times she even goes there is when he is clearly upset (like the sockman fiasco or being drunk after Jess laid into him), when she has to satisfy her curiosity (like him buying frosted flakes or Liz showing up) or when it involves another woman. Oh and while you are so convinced that whoever is in his life is in yours too, planning on telling him about Jason then? It's only fair, right. But of course not, different rules for other people.

But what really got me in that episode was her complete lack of concern for Luke's emotional well being. Not once did she actually approach the subject of whether all of this Nocole weirdness is actually good for him. Nothing like 'no, this isn't good for you and you might want to sit down and actually sort this whole mess out and I'm here to help if you need me'. Instead it's all 'no, I don't want you to move because it will inconvenience me'.

I understand, but Luke did the same thing to her at times. He lectured her about coffee and food, but also started asking personal questions when she told him that she was engaged. "Hello, personal!" was her response. I think they did that to each other, because of their feelings (as someone else said). 

 

I still love your username, by the way. :) And amensisterfriend's.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Anela

[Smad]

1 hour ago, FictionLover said:

I took Lorelai's behavior when Luke moved as jealousy that blindsided her.

But then it makes her jealousy more important than his emotional well being from her POV. Which is still not ok in my book.

1 hour ago, TimetravellingBW said:

I didn't really mind that particular case of Lorelai freaking out over Luke moving because the show actually acknowledged that Lorelai was being unreasonable, and it was more about Lorelai realizing her romantic feelings for Luke and leading up to the big Luke/Lorelai finally-declaring-their-feelings at the end of the season rather than just random selfishness. Plus it provided one of my favourite and most hilarious scenes with the two of them breaking the bells.  

I'm sure back when I was shipper I was all over that. And I still laugh when the Reverant is basically like 'yeah, destroy my bells'. But since I'm not a shipper anymore I look at the individual actions. And what's really annoying is that everybody tells her she is off her rocker (Luke, Sookie, Rory) and she even aknowledges it herself. BUT she still doesn't stop. That's what is so aggravating because it's still all about her and not him and his well being. She just keeps pushing even though he clearly wants her to stay out of it.

1 hour ago, Anela said:

I understand, but Luke did the same thing to her at times. He lectured her about coffee and food, but also started asking personal questions when she told him that she was engaged. "Hello, personal!" was her response. I think they did that to each other, because of their feelings (as someone else said).

Pointing out that all her junk food consumption is not healthy is not even in the same category. Because he clearly cares more about her physical well being than she does. And while that whole personal questions thing can be considered to be equal to ITATC, the difference is that Luke again actually had a point. While he couldn't know her and Max hadn't actually discussed these things, it woke her out of her ignorance regarding these very important questions. Nothing Lorelai did in ITCATC was actually helpful to Luke.

Lorelai: I climbed out a window.
Luke: Ok.
Lorelai: That's it? You're not curious why?
Luke: No.

Lorelai: Why Luke? I swear I'm dying to know. But every time I bring it up you s*** out. Why won't you tell me, I would tell you.
Luke: Yes, but I wouldn't wanna know.

That's the fundamental difference between them. Luke accepts what people tell him without feeling the need to ask endless questions and harrass them until they give in. And he usually doesn't feel the need to prod into other peoples lives (except his family).

[Sweet Tee]

Quote

Very reminiscent of an earlier episode where she basically says in regards to Nicole 'he has to get it through his head that whoever is in his life is in my life too'. 

 

Oh wow.  I don't even remember her saying that.  Unbelievable.  Like she takes him into consideration when she hooked up with Max, Jason, or Chris.  Not that she should have to.  But he shouldn't have to think about her when he starts dating people either.

[elang4]

8 minutes ago, Sweet Tee said:

 

Oh wow.  I don't even remember her saying that.  Unbelievable.  Like she takes him into consideration when she hooked up with Max, Jason, or Chris.  Not that she should have to.  But he shouldn't have to think about her when he starts dating people either.

Even Rory was like well isn't that a bit stalkerish and then she did mention well are you going to tell him about Jason then.

[Melancholy]

IMO, Lorelai was pretty much always jealous of Luke's other romantic interests because of her subliminal feelings for Luke. Moreover, Lorelai always had a gross sense of entitlement to Luke's exclusive focus and devotion to her and Rory and can be relied to have some kind of problem when Luke develops another huge emotional priority whether it's a girlfriend or Jess/April. Luke called Lorelai out in a favorite scene where Lorelai was pulling a less dramatic but more overtly inappropriate (without the "friends tell each other stuff" cover) for her romantic feelings version of ITCAC.

LORELAI: Oh, good. Well, good. So anyhow, I saw you guys talking alone and it seemed kind of private, and she mentioned earlier that you didn't make her, you know, gag, so I just figured you guys were making some sort of plans to hang out. And see, the thing is, I just think it would be a little weird if you started dating a Chilton mom. Look, I know I have no right to say anything to you, but it's just, um, if you did date her, well, I'm in the Booster Club with her, which means that I'll hear things, and I don't know, it's just, I'd like to keep that Chilton life separate from my Stars Hollow life, so if there's any way that you could not date her, that would be really great.
LUKE: Boy, I tell you, you've got nerve.
LORELAI: Okay. Well, I know this is your private business.
LUKE: It is my private business.
LORELAI: You don't see any validity to my side at all?
LUKE: I am a grown man. You cannot tell me who to date.
LORELAI: I'm not telling you who to date, I'm telling you who not to date.
LUKE: You can't tell me that either.
LORELAI: Look…
LUKE: I will date who I like, and if that screws with your plans, then sorry. And if you don't wanna hear things, then don't listen.
LORELAI: But…
LUKE: If you don't like it, you can just deal with it.
LORELAI: Okay, I'll just deal with it.
LUKE: Good.
LORELAI: I just thought that if something was going to affect our friendship in some way that you might care about that, because if the situation was reversed, then I would care, but hey, that's me, and so…go ahead, date her, marry her, make her Mrs. Backwards Baseball Cap, live happily ever after, see if I care. 
LUKE: And by the way, I wasn't asking her out. I was giving her directions for the quickest way back to Hartford. It was very romantic. I said you take a right at Deerfield, and you catch the I-5 and you take it south. Oh man, hot stuff.

[Smad]

1 hour ago, Melancholy said:

LORELAI: I just think it would be a little weird if you started dating a Chilton mom. I'd like to keep that Chilton life separate from my Stars Hollow life, so if there's any way that you could not date her, that would be really great.

Says the woman who dated a freaking Chilton teacher. And not just any teacher but Rory's. I wish Luke had pointed that out. More people than Rory should have been allowed to point out Lorelai's hypocricies sometimes.

[JaggedLilPill]

To be honest, I felt both Lorelai and Luke had inappropriate incidents where they overstepped boundaries in regards to each other's personal lives before they were together. Lorelai's moments make me cringe for sure. The Luke-moving-in-with-Nicole reaction was definitely one of Loreali's worst moments and then the freak out about the Booster Mom.

But Luke's pissing contest with Max was also embarrassingly cringe-worthy.  The whole exchange gives me second-hand embarrassment. I guess we're supposed to view it as Luke recognizing his feelings (after being told by Rachel) and fighting for Lorelai, but....no. Just....no. And it leads to the L/M proposal and Max thinking Luke and Lorelai were more than friends, but again.....no. 

And then Luke offering free refills and whatever after finding out about her canceled engagement, it's no wonder these two are so dysfunctional. Neither of them seemed to know how to handle their more-than-friendly feelings and moving from friends to more, so they'd do this little dance filled with passive-aggressive jealousy and entitlement and instead of it being sweet, it comes off as anything but.

[CalamityBoPeep]

1 hour ago, JaggedLilPill said:

But Luke's pissing contest with Max was also embarrassingly cringe-worthy.  The whole exchange gives me second-hand embarrassment. I guess we're supposed to view it as Luke recognizing his feelings (after being told by Rachel) and fighting for Lorelai, but....no. Just....no. And it leads to the L/M proposal and Max thinking Luke and Lorelai were more than friends, but again.....no. 

 

I've wondered how that scene with Bert would have come off if Scott Patterson had be directed to take it in a more casual direction. Instead of squaring off and going face to face with Max, if he'd just delivered the line like "yeah, I do stuff around her house" casually. Max could have still had his jealous proposal, but Luke wouldn't have looked quite so ridiculous. 

It just seems to me that when subtext gets this close to text, it starts looking idiotic to turn right around and have the characters pretend they don't know what's going on. That's what bugged me with the Nicole-and-Luke-Moving thing. I like the scene with the bells, but he clearly asks her point-blank why he should not move. He's ready to hear what she could say. He actually wants to know. And I don't know about y'all, but if someone point-blank asks me how I feel, I usually come up with something a lot more descriptive than "I just don't." She has to know at that point that she's jealous. She's been told by all her closest confidantes that she has a problem.

Instead, she lies to him and to herself at that point. Which shows a distinct lack of courage, and a hypocritical view of her own honesty. Maybe she wouldn't have recognized the depth of her feelings... maybe not calling it love... but she should have at least recognized that she felt hurt and blindsided, and she was afraid of losing him. He could have reacted to that, not with words of love, but words of reassurance that her feelings mattered. In other words... they could have both been honest with each other. Instead the scene was about chickens avoiding the topic at hand and the comedic interruption. 

It could have been really interesting to explore their dynamic at that point, but of course ASP was so afraid of the "Moonlighting Curse" that she had her characters act stupidly blind to their own motivations. Real people so lacking in self-awareness wouldn't be anyone I'd care to hang around with. It always comes back to the writing though. If you're going to have a couple who have it bad for each other but "don't know it" then you can't have these blatant set-ups with the feelings front and center. You kind of need subtlety to pull off a story like that.

And then they go from these situations to the enforced distance in the later seasons. It's really maddening. It's such a skewed view of how relationships form, and how they work after that. 

Just makes me shake my head... Hollywood is weird.

Edited September 22, 2016 by CalamityBoPeep

[random chance]

This scene has always bothered me - she's just so damn condescending.
 

Quote

 

LORELAI: It's disgusting. Now come on, let's find it. (notices something in one of the bags) Wait a second. What is this?

LUKE: (approaching Lorelai) Your underwear. (Lorelai picks out of the bag a huge pink satin pair of panties)

LORELAI: (stunned) Uh! Thanks a lot!

LUKE: (suppressing a laugh) I didn't see how big they were. What are they doing in there?

LORELAI: Well, I'm guessing probably hiding from their real owners, 'cause I would hate to be wrapped around the woman who fit those.

LUKE: Maybe you just grabbed the wrong bag.

LORELAI: (takes out a huge pair of bunny slippers and sets them on the counter) Oh, poor thing, she's single.

 

Yeah the bunny slippers drive men away - unlike hammers with feather and glitter or purring alarm clocks or the rest of Lorlelai's cutesy debris, that is cool simply because it belongs to Lorelai and not the woman with giant underwear.

[junienmomo]

20 minutes ago, CalamityBoPeep said:

I've wondered how that scene with Bert would have come off if Scott Patterson had be directed to take it in a more casual direction. Instead of squaring off and going face to face with Max, if he'd just delivered the line like "yeah, I do stuff around her house" casually. Max could have still had his jealous proposal, but Luke wouldn't have looked quite so ridiculous. 

 

I figured this intensity was needed to serve the "waving those things around" joke. 

There were several occasions, all of which escape me at the moment, in which the punch line was the best explanation for unrealistic behavior.  

Oh! The Dean headlock was one. Slapstick at the cost of a 35 year old man beating up a 16 year old on the street. 

Also the carrying of Sookie's babies outside in the middle of the baptism.

[JaggedLilPill]

1 hour ago, CalamityBoPeep said:

I've wondered how that scene with Bert would have come off if Scott Patterson had be directed to take it in a more casual direction. Instead of squaring off and going face to face with Max, if he'd just delivered the line like "yeah, I do stuff around her house" casually. Max could have still had his jealous proposal, but Luke wouldn't have looked quite so ridiculous. 

It just seems to me that when subtext gets this close to text, it starts looking idiotic to turn right around and have the characters pretend they don't know what's going on. That's what bugged me with the Nicole-and-Luke-Moving thing. I like the scene with the bells, but he clearly asks her point-blank why he should not move. He's ready to hear what she could say. He actually wants to know. And I don't know about y'all, but if someone point-blank asks me how I feel, I usually come up with something a lot more descriptive than "I just don't." She has to know at that point that she's jealous. She's been told by all her closest confidantes that she has a problem.

Instead, she lies to him and to herself at that point. Which shows a distinct lack of courage, and a hypocritical view of her own honesty. Maybe she wouldn't have recognized the depth of her feelings... maybe not calling it love... but she should have at least recognized that she felt hurt and blindsided, and she was afraid of losing him. He could have reacted to that, not with words of love, but words of reassurance that her feelings mattered. In other words... they could have both been honest with each other. Instead the scene was about chickens avoiding the topic at hand and the comedic interruption. 

It could have been really interesting to explore their dynamic at that point, but of course ASP was so afraid of the "Moonlighting Curse" that she had her characters act stupidly blind to their own motivations. Real people so lacking in self-awareness wouldn't be anyone I'd care to hang around with. It always comes back to the writing though. If you're going to have a couple who have it bad for each other but "don't know it" then you can't have these blatant set-ups with the feelings front and center. You kind of need subtlety to pull off a story like that.

And then they go from these situations to the enforced distance in the later seasons. It's really maddening. It's such a skewed view of how relationships form, and how they work after that. 

Just makes me shake my head... Hollywood is weird.

Yes! This, this, this so much.

In theory, Lorelai should know how Luke feels about her, and how she feels about Luke, and Luke should know the same. It makes the "Luke Can See Her Face" moment even more WTF since Rachel pretty much says he's in love with Lorelai. But then two steps forward, four steps back. Oy with the poodles.

I know ASP thought season one was too soon, season two as well, even season three, but by season four? C'mon. The bells moment could have led to some beautiful introspection by the both of them, and it could have added tension for the remainder of the season. They didn't have to get them together right away.  And I doubt it would have come off like Lorelai was purposely pursuing a married man (nice parallel to Rory/Dean?) But with her being in a relationship with Jason and Luke being married, and both of them finally coming to terms with the enormity of their feelings for each other, yeah, it would have been nice. Or even as you suggest, it could have been an honest discussion about what their friendship means to each of them.

It's not the first time Lorelai has insinuated that she's afraid of losing Luke.

1 hour ago, junienmomo said:

Oh! The Dean headlock was one. Slapstick at the cost of a 35 year old man beating up a 16 year old on the street. 

Cringe.

Or Luke's over-the-top mocking about Lorelai's younger date. It comes off as dickish on Luke's part. Yeah, haha once or twice about it, but making the crack about the young boys not sitting near Lorelai and her having a height bar like in an amusement park? That was low. Especially since the guy wasn't that much younger than her. Maybe he was 25-26 to Lorelai's then 33? It's really not a big deal. Neither of them went on the date thinking they'd be entering into a long term relationship. The whole Lorelai being a cougar joke played out real fast in that episode.

[TwirlyGirly]

2 hours ago, random chance said:

Yeah the bunny slippers drive men away - unlike hammers with feather and glitter or purring alarm clocks or the rest of Lorlelai's cutesy debris, that is cool simply because it belongs to Lorelai and not the woman with giant underwear.

Lest we also not forget the MONKEY LAMP.

Insofar as bunny slippers, their effect on men really depends upon what you wear with the slippers. "Nothing" usually works well to keep the man in question right where he is.

I watched "It's just like riding a bike" (S7E18) this morning on Freeform. This is the one in which Lorelai's Jeep conks out and she needs a new car. Of course she enlists Luke to help her choose one, which is a huge waste of his time because Lorelai couldn't care less about his input - she's gonna decide entirely based on her "feelings." Naturally they leave the lot without Lorelai choosing anything (she refused even a later model Jeep Wrangler than her old one because it had "new car smell" and she insisted on having her OLD CAR SMELL in whatever replacement car she buys).

At this point, Luke *should* just wash his hands of the whole situation and tell Lorelai she's being ridiculous (she is) and if she's so adverse to choosing a car because it smells NEW, she can just go ahead and continue riding her bicycle forever (and good luck to her when she's faced with two feet of snow in the dead of winter).

But does he? Of course not.

Instead, he spends hours of his own time seeking out another Jeep Wrangler just like Lorelai's on Craigslist, finds one, goes to the owner's house to check it out and test-drive it - and then when everything looks okay, suggests to Lorelai that she buy it and have Gypsy remove the engine and put it in her old Wrangler.

And what are the first words out of Lorelai's mouth when she hears this? Is it "Wow, Luke! You spent a lot of time on this. I don't know how to thank you! You have no idea how much I appreciate it!" Nope. It's "But I'll still have my car?"

Then Luke gives her the owner's phone number, and tells Lorelai he negotiated the price down by $1500.00, and when she calls the guy to make sure and tell him she's Lorelai, Luke's friend. To which Lorelai responds "Thanks I will."

So, once again, we've got someone (Luke) spending considerable time indulging in one of Lorelai's ridiculous whims. Of course, every time someone indulges Lorelai in this way it just reinforces she's right (and being perfectly reasonable) in her own mind. And she can't even muster up a proper show of appreciation.

You know, it's funny....everyone has been speculating as to who both Lorelai and Rory will end up with at the end of the GG revival. I had been gunning for Luke, but now that I've posted this topic and read everyone's input, I dislike Lorelai even more than I did before - and am now hoping she ends up ALONE. Is that terrible? Maybe it is, but I can't get past the feeling that Lorelai ending up happy with anyone equates to rewarding bad behavior, and just once I'd like to see her get her comeuppance for all the crap she's done to others.

[JaggedLilPill]

I guess I don't see Lorelai as that bad of a person that she deserves total unhappiness for the rest of her life.

There are worse people in the world than Lorelai Gilmore. 

Plus, at some point, the enabler is just as bad as the person they are enabling. Maybe that's harsh but Luke keeps going back to her. I'm not going to feel sorry for Luke like he's some poor prisoner here. Luke's put her in her place many a time so he's not incapable nor is he oblivious to Lorelai's antics. 

[FictionLover]

I always thought Luke should understand her wanting to keep her jeep...look what he drives. Not to mention the other stuff he hangs on to; William Hardware sign and all the stuff in his apartment. 

[RachelKM]

From the Nitpick Thread:

Quote

 

It's a horrible feeling to never really fit in your own home, to constantly feel like everything you do is a disappointment to your family. It's also a normal reaction to decide you don't need their approval & to actively draw the line because then it's your choice, not just your failings, why you're different from them.

 

Quote

Honestly, that just sounds like self-pity to me.  I don't pretend that Emily and Richard made life easy for Lorelai.  She had legitimate grievances with them, and I fully supported her finding somewhere else to live as she was not happy living there.  I just didn't think her parents deserved the shunning.  That just seemed petty and vindictive to me.  I really was struck when Richard tells Lorelai that Emily couldn't get out of bed for a month after she left, Lorelai gives little to no indication that she gets what that meant, and doesn't really reflect on that. 

This brings to mind another thing that bugs me. I feel like part of Lorelai's motivation was to "save" Rory from the tyranny of the Gilmores.  She frequently described not just feeling oppressed on her own behalf, but fearing it for Rory.   It strikes me that Lorelai never really reevaluated this on any level even when Rory starts to take to that life. I'm not saying that it would have been great for Rory to be pushed the way the Richard and Emily seemed to push Lorelai, but I actually think Rory sort of thrived in that environment and seeing that annoyed Lorelai.  She saw it more as the enemy making inroads rather than considering that her parents were not monsters, just that their outlook and approach were not at all suited to her, but might well be suited to someone else... or rather that if it did suit this someone else, that person would not necessarily also be a monster bent on oppression.

I don't necessarily expect that she would regret her decision and I'm not 100% sure that it wasn't better to let Rory come to that kind of structured society on her own by choice later to be sure she wanted it.  But it would have been nice if Lorelai had come to understand that growing up with Emily and Richard in her life, even as additional parental figures, might not have felt like oppression to Rory as it did Lorelai, at the very least not to the same degree, and perhaps she only saved herself.   

Edited September 22, 2016 by RachelKM

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

One thing I really hated about the huge underwear thing was that that particular pair would've easily fit around Lorelai's good friends and neighbors Babette and Miss Patti, or her best friend and business partner Sookie. Would she ever say anything so cruel to one of them? Would she tolerate it from someone else?

[Anela]

8 hours ago, JaggedLilPill said:

To be honest, I felt both Lorelai and Luke had inappropriate incidents where they overstepped boundaries in regards to each other's personal lives before they were together. Lorelai's moments make me cringe for sure. The Luke-moving-in-with-Nicole reaction was definitely one of Loreali's worst moments and then the freak out about the Booster Mom.

But Luke's pissing contest with Max was also embarrassingly cringe-worthy.  The whole exchange gives me second-hand embarrassment. I guess we're supposed to view it as Luke recognizing his feelings (after being told by Rachel) and fighting for Lorelai, but....no. Just....no. And it leads to the L/M proposal and Max thinking Luke and Lorelai were more than friends, but again.....no. 

And then Luke offering free refills and whatever after finding out about her canceled engagement, it's no wonder these two are so dysfunctional. Neither of them seemed to know how to handle their more-than-friendly feelings and moving from friends to more, so they'd do this little dance filled with passive-aggressive jealousy and entitlement and instead of it being sweet, it comes off as anything but.

Yep. He also broke into her house - to fix things, but still. 

Smad, I think it's stupid for Luke to lecture Lorelai on her diet, when he's the one cooking and serving it, not only to her, but the entire town (and it is over-stepping - I wouldn't appreciate someone telling me how to eat). 

Edited September 22, 2016 by Anela

[Taryn74]

2 hours ago, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

One thing I really hated about the huge underwear thing was that that particular pair would've easily fit around Lorelai's good friends and neighbors Babette and Miss Patti, or her best friend and business partner Sookie. Would she ever say anything so cruel to one of them? Would she tolerate it from someone else?

ITA.  It was a horrible thing to say, and even more horrible because it was a direct insult against at least three people she loves and admires.  :(

[junienmomo]

5 hours ago, TwirlyGirly said:

 

 

 

I watched "It's just like riding a bike" (S7E18) this morning on Freeform. This is the one in which Lorelai's Jeep conks out and she needs a new car. Of course she enlists Luke to help her choose one, which is a huge waste of his time because Lorelai couldn't care less about his input - she's gonna decide entirely based on her "feelings." Naturally they leave the lot without Lorelai choosing anything (she refused even a later model Jeep Wrangler than her old one because it had "new car smell" and she insisted on having her OLD CAR SMELL in whatever replacement car she buys).

At this point, Luke *should* just wash his hands of the whole situation and tell Lorelai she's being ridiculous (she is) and if she's so adverse to choosing a car because it smells NEW, she can just go ahead and continue riding her bicycle forever (and good luck to her when she's faced with two feet of snow in the dead of winter).

But does he? Of course not.

Instead, he spends hours of his own time seeking out another Jeep Wrangler just like Lorelai's on Craigslist, finds one, goes to the owner's house to check it out and test-drive it - and then when everything looks okay, suggests to Lorelai that she buy it and have Gypsy remove the engine and put it in her old Wrangler.

And what are the first words out of Lorelai's mouth when she hears this? Is it "Wow, Luke! You spent a lot of time on this. I don't know how to thank you! You have no idea how much I appreciate it!" Nope. It's "But I'll still have my car?"

Then Luke gives her the owner's phone number, and tells Lorelai he negotiated the price down by $1500.00, and when she calls the guy to make sure and tell him she's Lorelai, Luke's friend. To which Lorelai responds "Thanks I will."

So, once again, we've got someone (Luke) spending considerable time indulging in one of Lorelai's ridiculous whims. Of course, every time someone indulges Lorelai in this way it just reinforces she's right (and being perfectly reasonable) in her own mind. And she can't even muster up a proper show of appreciation.

You know, it's funny....everyone has been speculating as to who both Lorelai and Rory will end up with at the end of the GG revival. I had been gunning for Luke, but now that I've posted this topic and read everyone's input, I dislike Lorelai even more than I did before - and am now hoping she ends up ALONE. Is that terrible? Maybe it is, but I can't get past the feeling that Lorelai ending up happy with anyone equates to rewarding bad behavior, and just once I'd like to see her get her comeuppance for all the crap she's done to others.

Sarcasm on: Aw, he just like to see her happy. (Junie snarls at the writers; can't even blame ASP for this one)

What makes it even worse is the last episode. Lorelai says she's over Luke, because he never responds when she makes a gesture, specifically naming karaoke, which she chose and sang for Rory until he walked in, then she supposedly sang it for him for maybe thirty seconds, except oh wait the next day she publicly denied any emotion for him around the song. 

When the series-ending kiss came, I could not see anything in LG's acting that indicated love or even strong emotion beyond a little gratitude that seemed to be even less than she had as she thanked Sookie. Luke looked guarded, as if she were going to make another hurtful statement like the karaoke thing. I sure can't blame him for that.

In the inevitable fanfiction that is derived from that scene, and I'm guilty of doing it in ff myself, it's Lorelai who is nervous and unsure about moving forward. Puleeze. If anyone should be concerned, it's Luke who keeps getting denied or ignored by Lorelai when he's making his gestures. In spite of his massive flaws, I felt that he deserved someone who could see and appreciate his efforts, more so than Lorelai.

[Smad]

Something I also can't stand is Lorleai pushing Luke into the 'dad' corner when it concerns Rory. It's absolutely unfair and totally inappropriate. And she plays the 'dad' card way too much for my opinion. For example in 'Teach Me Tonight' after the car crash when she's screaming at him the street. She actually has the audacity to say 'you have an obligation to me and to Rory'. No he freaking does not. He's not Lorelai's boyfriend/fiance/husband nor Rory's father/step-father. He has no obligations whatsoever. Or when Rory gets moved into her dorm and they get back to SH (from the second trip), instead of walking a bit to her house to get her own car she basically pushed Luke out of the driver's seat of hiw own car asking 'don't you care about Rory?'.

Here is an idea Lorelai, Rory has a father. How about you scream at him about obligations or harass him about helping move your daughter to college.

[junienmomo]

6 hours ago, Smad said:

Something I also can't stand is Lorleai pushing Luke into the 'dad' corner when it concerns Rory. It's absolutely unfair and totally inappropriate. And she plays the 'dad' card way too much for my opinion. For example in 'Teach Me Tonight' after the car crash when she's screaming at him the street. She actually has the audacity to say 'you have an obligation to me and to Rory'. No he freaking does not. He's not Lorelai's boyfriend/fiance/husband nor Rory's father/step-father. He has no obligations whatsoever. Or when Rory gets moved into her dorm and they get back to SH (from the second trip), instead of walking a bit to her house to get her own car she basically pushed Luke out of the driver's seat of hiw own car asking 'don't you care about Rory?'.

Here is an idea Lorelai, Rory has a father. How about you scream at him about obligations or harass him about helping move your daughter to college.

Excellently put. Too bad Luke didn't give her his own version of that, saying she should get Christopher to pony up. I never really got Lorelai's rationale for not holding the father accountable. I keep waffling between she didn't hold Christopher responsible because she wanted to run the show, or because it was more convenient using Luke, because he tended not to let her down. The whole 'she's in denial about her love for Luke' thing is easily counterbalanced by 'Christopher comes into town and I happily spread my legs for him.'

[random chance]

I think it's because she wanted to run the show. If she took money from Christopher he'd have more of a say in things, and she already ran away from home to get out of that kind of obligation. She never had to worry about Luke - he always gave in to her.

Now that I think about it, did she ditch Max because she wasn't in love, or because he wanted in on parenting Rory?

[txhorns79]

Quote

Now that I think about it, did she ditch Max because she wasn't in love, or because he wanted in on parenting Rory?

Possibly both!  You do have to love how the woman who seems to envision herself as this great parent apparently never spoke to her fiance about what his role would be vis a vis Rory until like, what, a week before the wedding? 

[junienmomo]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

Possibly both!  You do have to love how the woman who seems to envision herself as this great parent apparently never spoke to her fiance about what his role would be vis a vis Rory until like, what, a week before the wedding? 

She never told Max she loved him; we saw several examples of her waffle wording responses to him. That was reinforced by calling Christopher from her bachelorette party. There was a call to be rescued if there ever was one. I think the parenting rights was a nail in the coffin that made her admit to herself that she didn't love him. The discussion with Luke when he delivered the chuppah gave her the courage to call it off and run. 

[33kaitykaity]

6 minutes ago, junienmomo said:

I think the parenting rights was a nail in the coffin that made her admit to herself that she didn't love him. The discussion with Luke when he delivered the chuppah gave her the courage to call it off and run. 

For me it was Max's adverse reaction to her not making it a priority to get him keys to "her/their" house -- Max -- "You need to think about someone other than yourself for a few minutes a day" -- that signaled the end for them.  

[random chance]

14 minutes ago, 33kaitykaity said:

For me it was Max's adverse reaction to her not making it a priority to get him keys to "her/their" house -- Max -- "You need to think about someone other than yourself for a few minutes a day" -- that signaled the end for them.  

Ah right, I forgot about that weird scene. I'm still not sure if it was supposed to make her look bad, or Max.

[Kohola3]

Quote

 I'm still not sure if it was supposed to make her look bad, or Max.

Not sure either but, in my opinion, he was right on with his comment.  Add that to the fact that she shot him down regarding Rory and he has a valid point.

[moonb]

Both of them, imo. I think it hit Max in that moment that Lorelai was really a piece of work as a partner, and not just charming, witty and fun.  Most of their relationship was about him pursuing her, making romantic gestures, or them breaking up, just like Rory and Dean. They were both such teenagers about their relationship, which for Lorelai makes complete sense. Any man she has a connection with might be the one, and love to her is someone's devotion to her and following her lead. Plus, Christopher is the one significant boyfriend of Lorelai's that we know of, and many posters have noted that  Lorelai comes first to him and Rory is second. So it's no shock that Lorelai is thrown by Max taking an interest in being a parent to Rory. 

For Max Lorelai must have been like a drug or something. He was always trying to figure what it took to be with her.  And he was still willing to marry her after she kept forgetting the key.

[random chance]

33 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

Not sure either but, in my opinion, he was right on with his comment.  Add that to the fact that she shot him down regarding Rory and he has a valid point.

Oh I agree, he had a point. But sometimes I get the feeling that ASP's points were accidental, as in, we weren't supposed to notice he had a point - his outburst was to make us sympathetic to Lorelai, especially after she ditched him. ASP had a kind of a scorched earth policy about the ex boyfriends.

 

24 minutes ago, moonb said:

 

For Max Lorelai must have been like a drug or something. He was always trying to figure what it took to be with her.  And he was still willing to marry her after she kept forgetting the key.

Oh interesting point!

[Anela]

I understood Lorelai's reaction to anyone else wanting to 'parent' Rory. When my mum and dad got back together, even he felt like he had no place to do so, for a while - he felt like it was the three of us (me, sister, mum) against him, because it had been just us for years (we were in different countries). Rory was actually happier about Max, than I was about several boyfriends mum had, during the time they were divorced. Maybe because she had her own boyfriend, and so felt she was being unfair, as well as the fact that she liked Max, whereas I didn't like the men my mother dated. She went through a bad patch there. 

Lorelai did have those moments where she realized how she might be affecting her daughter, and talked to her about it (as in, not being able to say, "I love you"). I also liked how she told her mother she could talk to her, when her parents were fighting over her dad's attitude and anger over being phased out at work. There were also times when her parents earned her silence/hatred, such as when her mum approached Christopher and invited him to the wedding. She set that up, but I never saw her dad as completely innocent. He agreed she should do that, from what I recall. I don't know. 

[Spartan Girl]

Ok, just watched "I'd Rather Be In Philadelphia", and it really annoys me that Lorelei never actually thanks Luke for coming in to check on her when he heard about Richard's heart attack, or getting his car when Emily asks him to, and bringing over all that food for him. She does tell him that he didn't have to do it, but she doesn't really give any signs that acknowledges or appreciates the gesture. 

And the fact that even after all that she would even CONSIDER cutting him out of her life just to appease Christopher -- which is really superfluous given that apart from a few awkward encounters, they were barely speaking -- just makes me madder.

Edited September 24, 2016 by Spartan Girl

[junienmomo]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Ok, just watched "I'd Rather Be In Philadelphia", and it really annoys me that Lorelei never actually thanks Luke for coming in to check on her when he heard about Richard's heart attack, or getting his car when Emily asks him to, and bringing over all that food for him. She does tell him that he didn't have to do it, but she doesn't really give any signs that acknowledges or appreciates the gesture. 

And the fact that even after all that she would even CONSIDER cutting him out of her life just to appease Christopher -- which is really superfluous given that apart from a few awkward encounters, they were barely speaking -- just makes me madder.

There were many moments in which she was inconsiderate to Luke. And other people, too, it was part of her character.

It's an odd parallel. After insisting to Luke during their relationship that Christopher would always be in her life, citing Rory as the reason, even when Christopher's intentions were always non-Rory, and seeing him even after the engagement without telling Luke, that she would be effective in cutting Luke out of her public life. She, did, of course, totally betray her true feelings when she wrote the character reference. 

I wonder what would have happened if Luke, when faced with the conundrum that Lorelai was using Rory as the reason to keep being besties with Christopher, had said the same to her that Christopher said after he read the character reference. 

[Guest]

There's a lot I love about Lorelai, but a lot things that really bother me such as just about everything said in this thread.

Another thing that really bugs me is her acting like she's a self-made woman who got where she is based on hard work and natural abilities. No, she was born into privilege, had a privileged upbringing and education, and a huge safety net to fall back on. Someone up thread said she likely didn't stay a maid long, and I concur. However, I think her prep school education and likely some type of finishing school program gave her an incredible advantage in "moving up."

[random chance]

Hell, you don't even have to look further for her privilege than the pilot episode of the show. She didn't put her daughter through private school by working hard and saving, she did it by agreeing to have dinner once a week with her rich parents. And even that she bitched about.