S02.E11: Wish I'd Spaced You When I Had the Chance / S02.E12: Sometimes In Life You Don't Get to Choose

[formerlyfreedom]

 Wish I'd Spaced You When I Had the Chance:

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The crew races against time to track down and locate a missing Three and Five before the Galactic Authority gets to them first.

and Sometimes In Life You Don't Get to Choose:

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Four's loyalty is put to the test when he attempts to reclaim the throne of Ishida.

 

 

[Oracle42]

Dammit!

[Chaos Theory]

Well that happened.

Its interesting to see how Four was different when he became Ryo.   At first you didn't see it but he was colder and ruthless.  Daddy would be proud?

I liked both episodes because they showed how Five has become a full fledge member of the crew.  Twice Five was underestimated and twice she showed how she uses that to her advantage.  Plus I loved the scenes between Three and Five.  They play out like brother and sister.  

Android got all threateny with Six in the first episode.  Good to know that Android has found Six's death spot.   

Edited September 10, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[thuganomics85]

The first episode was a pretty fun one, do to the various combinations of characters that ended up being very entertaining.  Obviously, Three and Five were a hoot, but they also had some good dramatic scenes, when Three was pleading with Five to leave him and even tried to resort to insulting her, but she obviously saw through it.  But I also enjoyed the Six and Android stuff, and I actually really got a kick out of Two, Four, and Nyx at the bar in the beginning.  It was fun seeing those three characters kind of goofing off.  Even Four was legitimately smiling and laughing.  It was just fun seeing the crew acting more and more like a family.

I also continue to find this Inspector Kierken to be an interesting antagonist.  I like that it isn't just about bringing them to justice, but he also wants to use them to prevent an all-out corporate war.  Hopefully, he'll appear next season as well.

All that said, yeah, the second hour was when things got nuts.  I guess Four is pretty much gone now, and Ryo has taken his place.  Him murdering the Seers, his stepmom, and even his stepbrother, was some straight-up Game of Thrones-shit, right there.  I guess he really wanted to make sure no one took his throne away from him.  Have no idea what to make of this.  I can't see him fitting back into the Raza crew, unless they somehow erase his memories again.

Another thing that I found interesting was Six's idea of using the drive to bring down the corporations and Galactic Authority, and then the Raza crew become some kind of galactic overseer or something.  That's pretty out there, to say the least.  Two seemed totally stunned over that suggestion.  Have to think that is going to be brought up again later on.

Season finale next week!

[sjohnson]

Boone killing all five brothers for Emily was supposed to be a heartwarming feat of heroism? I guess, given they go around just snatching random young women. That's radical mean, all right. How nice for Boone that the script offers up clearly marked villains to slaughter.

Boone leaving the cop with a verbal confession but no recording is sort of having his cake and eat it too. The thing is, Kyle K should smell a rat. Still if he checks out the names of the hired guns, that's good infor that might serve the Raza to have out there. 

The shout out about how Emily is not really a kid may be setting up an endgame for True Love.

Varrick's discussions about what he was like before raised the interesting question of whether his friend lied. Trying to remember the time line, though, I'm having trouble figuring how his temper tantrum after the bombing leads to him infiltrating the Raza without reconciling himself to GA. Also, his interpretation of them allowing the destruction of the station as just for political points may be correct...but it may be incomplete, as in threatening their other infiltration agent in the General's camp, the one who tipped them off about the raid. That guy who Varrick's clone saw when he "assassinated" the General's clone is the one I'm thinking of. There may have been a Coventry-type, Imitation Game decision?

Varrick's crazed notion that one ship will police the galaxy's crises does pretty well reflect his belief that he's qualified to act as instantaneous judge, jury and executioner. It is obvious from this episode that one ship, even with a blink drive, is hard pressed to intervene on a single planet even when the script reduces it to a handful of small rooms with even fewer characters. I think your average county commission meeting has a bigger audience than the major trial of the pretender to the throne. Even with inside help the Raza's intervention was a miracle of convenience. 

As to Ryo being more or less monstrous, this is exactly what he's been all along. The fact that he's mostly nice to his friends when it doesn't really cost his ambitions anything is not a high bar to leap, is it? Over all I'd say this was a moral catastrophe for humanity, giving Zairon a super fleet. I could have sworn I heard Ryo singing under his breath, "First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin!" 

As for the Seers being conveniently blind...really, the less said here the better. It just doesn't fit. As to whether Nyx's disenchantment with Ryo is plausible (he really wasn't different, he murdered his old friend already, his stepbrother was the same thing,) I'm not sure it matters. Nyx is just such a duplicate, she's a terrible, terrible replacement for One, who at least was different. Getting rid of One was like getting rid of Daniel Jackson for being such a wuss. The automatic way the Raza decides to replace a government foregoes any real drama, which is about choosing. We know Our Heroes are gonna win in the end, there's no suspense there.

Edited September 10, 2016 by sjohnson

[Chaos Theory]

Is Four the one that is going to betray the crew this year?    That was what Nyx's brother said.  "Someone would betray the crew" and he said it to four.  Irony huh?  

It would also be interesting if Varrick turns out to be just as monstrous as the rest of them and his idea of turning the Raza into what is basically judge and jury of the universe backfires in a major way.  Six talked to Five about Varrick being ok with blowing up an entire ship for the greater good.  What if that was actually true?  That is an interesting premise.  What if they (at the adults and maybe eve Five  we still don't really know what Five was before the mind wipe do we?) were all monsters before the mind wipe.  

Edited September 10, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[wanderingstar]

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The first episode was a pretty fun one, do to the various combinations of characters that ended up being very entertaining.

Yeah - I really loved that. And I loved the rest of the Raza Crew showing up to rescue Three. That's the kind of badassery that is this show's bread and butter.

Random thoughts on the double episode:

Three and Five on the run together was gold. And Good Lord did Anthony Lemke look hot in this episode!

Kierkan is a good adversary for the Raza Crew. Plus, Kris Holden Reid is pretty, and I'm always here for that.

I was hoping for more fireworks when Nyx found out about Four helping Milo commit suicide.

Quote of the night from Four: "Exploding, shooting, screaming. Who else is it gonna be." Too funny - and too true! 

I also loved Four's goodbyes. I guess he was saying goodybe to his Four self too. Hated the way he ended things with Nyx, but it's very in character for Ryo.

Did not expect Four to go all Red Wedding, but then I guess I was in denial about him still being Our Four. I'll miss his stoic presence in the Raza Crew.

The finale should be interesting.

[SimoneS]

These were two solid episodes. Three has come a long way. I chuckled when the guy told him that Five wasn't a "kid." Three is protective of not only her, but the whole crew as he claimed he acted alone. 

I was surprised by the Seers appearance. I didn't see them coming. Poor Nyx. She is gorgeous. Four's brutal actions in the end were in character. I will never forget how he killed the man who trained him and was helping him escape. I still like his romance with Nyx, but she is fortunate to get away from Four for now. Hopefully, in time, he will decide to make better choices. His poor brother. He was innocent, but every correct decision that he made led to his death.

I love Six. I was surprised when he told Two that they just let the war happen, let the people choose their own leaders, and that the Raza would intervene when necessary. I think he is onto something there. Five knows them better than they know themselves. She was right to be concerned about them regaining their memory. I also think that Five is right about his co-worker lying about Six's going back to work or maybe Six was secretly working on a plan. Unlike Two, Three, and Four, Six has always had a strong moral center and is not ruthless. Six was also right that they shouldn't give the Four's army the jump drive. I wonder if Four will try to take it.

Five is very resourceful on both episodes. I like that she is coming into her own although still retaining her conscience.

Kierkan is a good adversary for the Raza crew. I can see him becoming a reluctant ally when the war starts.

Edited September 10, 2016 by SimoneS

[zxy556575]

I liked Four parceling out bits of pre-wipe info that he thought would benefit each person/android. But yeah, I guess I need to call him Ryo from now on. Interesting that he admires Two more than he did Portia, especially considering their past.

The most intriguing part of the show for me has been watching the characters recreate themselves after the wipe so I'm sorry to see that gradually fall by the wayside. It's probably not a supportable premise as the series goes on, but I'll always be fondest of season one because of it.

[Chaos Theory]

23 minutes ago, lordonia said:

I liked Four parceling out bits of pre-wipe info that he thought would benefit each person/android. But yeah, I guess I need to call him Ryo from now on. Interesting that he admires Two more than he did Portia, especially considering their past.

The most intriguing part of the show for me has been watching the characters recreate themselves after the wipe so I'm sorry to see that gradually fall by the wayside. It's probably not a supportable premise as the series goes on, but I'll always be fondest of season one because of it.

I think it's going to be about choice in the long run which is an interesting and supportable premise.  Which ones chose to go back to who they were and why they do it.  Four chose because he thought he wanted to save his people but he didn't quite realize what kind of monster Ryo was.  Four had honor Ryo does not.   Ryo is the monster his father built him to be.    

Two knows the kind of uncontrollable monster Portia was and that knowledge alone will keep her from wanting to regain her memories unless she has no choice.  I think right now Varrick is the wild card.  I said it in a previous post.  Six is the voice of concience for the crew but it is an unrealistic voice he has and it would be interesting if the flip side of him is that Varrick is just as big a monster as the rest of them.  That he actually was ok with the bombing of the space station and the two sides of him are both ok with using extreme violence to do what he thinks his right.

Edited September 10, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[sjohnson]

Speaking of Emily Kolburn, she appears to have gone by the nickname "Dass," (sp?) and been using her tech skills to fit on the Raza crew, just like now. Judging from her plan to brain wipe the others, which would have left her the last one standing, maybe she's deep down just as vile as the rest were. (I'm not excepting Moss, on the grounds billionaires are like monarchs, their social function is evil.) That would explain why Ryo was avoiding Boone, he didn't want to disillusion Boone's crush? Of course this though assumes that Android's kill order came from someone else, presumably Portia Lin, giver her possession of the override code, if I remember alternate Android's dialogue correctly. 

[AzureOwl]

3 hours ago, sjohnson said:

As for the Seers being conveniently blind...really, the less said here the better. It just doesn't fit. 

The thing about that, is that it makes complete sense in the context of how their prescience is supposed to work. They don't see the future, the predict the most likely outcome based on the information they have. So if they don't have complete data, their predictions can turn out wrong.

They have no way of knowing about Five's true abilities and capabilities, leading them to underestimate her and miss-predict her actions.

They have no way of knowing about the Android's modifications, hence their failure to predict that she'd jump the Raza right on top of the imperial palace.

 

39 minutes ago, sjohnson said:

Speaking of Emily Kolburn, she appears to have gone by the nickname "Dass," (sp?) and been using her tech skills to fit on the Raza crew, just like now. Judging from her plan to brain wipe the others, which would have left her the last one standing, maybe she's deep down just as vile as the rest were. (I'm not excepting Moss, on the grounds billionaires are like monarchs, their social function is evil.) That would explain why Ryo was avoiding Boone, he didn't want to disillusion Boone's crush? Of course this though assumes that Android's kill order came from someone else, presumably Portia Lin, giver her possession of the override code, if I remember alternate Android's dialogue correctly. 

That was the biggest revelation of the episode in my opinion. Until now we have all pretty much operation on the assumption that the memory wipe happened almost immediately after Five came aboard the ship. But now we know this was not the case. There was a period of time long enough between her being discovered aboard and the memory wipe for her to become a member of the crew and assist Portia with her alterations of the Android. 

This puts a lot of things in a different perspective.

Edited September 10, 2016 by AzureOwl

[NorthstarATL]

That was a neat little surprise. I was half expecting Four/Ryo to prove the seers wrong by rejoining the crew and leaving the planet to his stepbrother minus the Empress' control, so the "kill them all" option was cool. Looking forward to next week.

[sjohnson]

14 minutes ago, AzureOwl said:

The thing about that, is that it makes complete sense in the context of how their prescience is supposed to work. They don't see the future, the predict the most likely outcome based on the information they have. So if they don't have complete data, their predictions can turn out wrong.

 

But, what information don't they have? Try as I may, the only thing I can come up with is that they didn't know the original Ryo, thus miscalculated his choices, projecting what the new, mindwiped Ryo ("Four") would have done. The thing is, is there really any significant difference? The Ryo we knew slaughtered his old mentor for power. The new Ryo slaughtering his mortal enemy the Empress is entirely of a piece. And necessarily murdering her son (who couldn't be trusted not to seek vengeance) is equally so. I'm just not finding it plausible the new Ryo would have wanted to keep the stepbrother at the expense of keeping the Empress alive in exile.

PS On another tangent, Varrick's loopy idea of the Raza making the difference in crises doesn't take into account the new Ziron fleet of galactic conquest. They have already undertaken a course of action that will prevent Varrick's unformed hopes from ever congealing into an actual plan. And if they backstab Emperor Ryo by reneging on his blink drive, the promise of which is his coup's only real hope of final success, they've pretty much condemned him to death. But they've all come down to Dass' idea of morality, which is there are no crimes in supporting your family and killing their enemies. So I can't see that happening.

Edited September 10, 2016 by sjohnson

[kryss]

I enjoyed it, but felt squicky in the first part.  Rescuing Five from slavers, "she's not a kid", the almost mortal injury and self sacrifice; all the stuff with Three and Five felt like bad fan fiction.

Five is always so 'good' with such a strong conscience, I'm waiting for a reveal that with memories she is the most ruthless and manipulative of them all.  Preferably playing some kind of long game.

[sjohnson]

It seemed to me that "Kill them all" has been a reveal. Her plot function in sciencing (thank you, The Martian, for an essential verb!) is so important that you have to watch her. But personally, since then I can't say I've thought of her as good, nor nice, nor even particularly young. 

Although she doesn't have personal memories of being homeless, on one level homelessness is all she knows. So it seems to me her character now is one that will kill anyone outside the family in order to have a home. Nor does she question being a predatory family, she just works on ways to contribute her share to being a successful predatory family. 

Edited September 10, 2016 by sjohnson

[Terrafamilia]

No wonder Zairon is loosing the war. Mama Empress is willing to blow up six of Zairon's own battle cruisers to stomp on their command crews.

The Seers are now dead but the plugged-in group mind/mind group that does the actual seeing is still out there somewhere. If Ryo is as smart and ruthless as he thinks he is he'll waste no time in tracking them down and taking possession of them if at all possible.

[zxy556575]

8 hours ago, kryss said:

Five is always so 'good' with such a strong conscience, I'm waiting for a reveal that with memories she is the most ruthless and manipulative of them all. Preferably playing some kind of long game.

She's said she was afraid of and disliked the crew when they temporarily reverted back to their unnumbered selves but at the time, she apparently got along well enough with at least Portia. And maybe Four, since he automatically used her nickname? The only difference now is her own perspective on life. I have to imagine she was pretty much a street-hardened criminal and con man before, but I don't believe a murderer. We'll see. What she was like and why she gouged everyone's memories remains intriguing (and which I sincerely hope isn't going to be some wimpy version of, "Because you were too mean.").

Edited September 11, 2016 by lordonia

[AzureOwl]

4 hours ago, sjohnson said:

But, what information don't they have? Try as I may, the only thing I can come up with is that they didn't know the original Ryo, thus miscalculated his choices, projecting what the new, mindwiped Ryo ("Four") would have done. The thing is, is there really any significant difference? The Ryo we knew slaughtered his old mentor for power. The new Ryo slaughtering his mortal enemy the Empress is entirely of a piece. And necessarily murdering her son (who couldn't be trusted not to seek vengeance) is equally so. I'm just not finding it plausible the new Ryo would have wanted to keep the stepbrother at the expense of keeping the Empress alive in exile

They had no way of knowing that a backup copy of Ryo's original memories existed for him to put back in his head.  And while you are right that there wasn't that big of a difference, there was enough of a difference to throw off their calculations. 

Four and Ryo may be extremely similar to one another, but they are not identical. They are close enough that the Seers' predictions about Four's course of action still worked on the whole rather well for Ryo, but not for what he would do once he had the throne.

Four may or may not have slaughtered everyone, but Ryo for damn sure would.

[Black Knight]

FOUR! [/Two] Holy hell. So many thoughts. I had to go back and rewatch much of both episodes after that end. I don't know if TPTB had any idea that these episodes would be shown back-to-back, but they are effective bookends.

- Two/Four/Nyx, being so cute in the beginning, but look how it bookends the final scene: In both, characters make predictions, but it's the predictions in the latter that are far more serious, and ultimately, fatal. Plus, Two and Nyx are clearly the most upset by Four's actions in the end. That tight little trio we saw at the start is ripped apart. *sniff* It's Hiro's murder that's the breaking point. The Seers needed to go, as their predictions were dangerous (plus, they were also just plain annoying, the way they continually popped up ruining things because they "foresaw" it), and the Empress and her hatchet man did murder the past Emperor, frame Four, etc. But Hiro did nothing but stand by Four, support his claim, and abdicate so his brother could have the throne that Hiro himself never wanted. So while Two is shocked/surprised by the brutality of the other murders, it's Hiro's that causes her to yell "Four!"

- Three being mean to Five in an attempt to drive her away is great for misleading our expectations when it comes to the scene where Four is mean to Nyx. Viewers naturally think it's an attempt to drive her away, that like Nyx said, Four is worried that he's walking into a trap and that's why he doesn't want to take anyone. But it seems he really was breaking it off.

- The Android identifies a weakness in Six that she can use to kill him if necessary. Damn, ZP was so good with her final line in that scene. But more to the point, she mentioned earlier in the scene that she routinely runs scans on all of the crew. Could Four have a physical weakness too that the Android could exploit? More on that speculation later.

- Two and Six's conversation is terrific, starting with his "change is good" vs. her "change is interesting". The show nicely manages to delineate their drastically different viewpoints without turning it into a laborious discussion. Six essentially subscribes to a "Great Man" theory while Two thinks it's more about systems, and that changes in players don't mean systematic changes in the long run. She also thinks that such systems are likely a necessary evil, that as bad as things can be for people in them, it's even worse for most people in chaos and anarchy. (She really was affected by that news broadcast she saw in the parallel universe, that showed how much collateral damage the rebellion was causing.) Six's answer to that is that they can be the ultimate moral arbiters, which, oy. Six definitely has some delusions of grandeur. Two chooses to do good where she can, but she doesn't have the kind of hubris that Six does. This is going to be interesting to see play out, because Six is right about one thing, Two is the one who would need to convince the others. But at this point, he's not even convincing Two. If he can find something specific for her to intervene in, that would be one thing, she always tries to help when a situation arises, but the whole general "let's play intergalactic cops" is a harder sell. Two is not an abstract person at bottom, unlike Six, and she sees problems in that that he doesn't.

- Four/Nyx talk about memories, and that is one of the first nuggets to drop that maybe the newly blended Four is more Ryo than Four. Four says he didn't tell the others because they think memories are dangerous, Nyx says that maybe they are, and Four says that they're necessary. Except that original Four's "necessary" was probably different than Ryo's "necessary." Original Four, I noticed, talked a lot more about his people than reclaiming the throne, while this Four talks almost exclusively in terms of reclaiming his throne and not much about his people. Anyway, Nyx closes that conversation by noting that Four's feelings for her may not have changed, but he has. A bit of a warning bell for us, but then, it would be unreasonable to think that Four wouldn't change at all, so, not a loud bell just yet.

- This is followed up more with Six and Five's conversation. Five doesn't want to be around Four, and even though she takes part in the rescue mission later, the fact is still that we go the entire episode without Five and Four ever having a conversation. Six gets to say all the stuff we in the audience have been saying about blended selves, and barring some big twist in the finale, he turns out to be wrong. Which scares me, because Four was the one with the best shot of remaining more Four than his original self. If he couldn't, what chance do Three, and especially Two, have? I really, really want to know now about whether Four also made copies of Two's and Three's neural imprints. And if he has them, what does he plan to do with them? Original Four wouldn't have done anything bad or without their consent; this guy, who knows. If copies of Two's and Three's neural imprints exist, they need to be killed with fire. Seriously.

- Two and the Android: They have a nice conversation, with one of the few moments of cuteness and levity in this episode when Two gently calls the Android out on drinking the hot chocolate for herself. And we get another warning bell in this scene, because the Android was worried that she might have made a mistake, and because Two's a good friend and it's too late now anyway, to make the Android feel better Two lies to her that she would have done the same thing. But it's clear first from the way she reinforces her "yes" with an "of course" and second from her look once the Android leaves that she was lying.

- Four/Six's conversation. Man, this is a biggie for me. I think this might have been a crucial turning point right here, that maybe the new Four wasn't so bad at first but then it was Six stupidly telling Four that "we'll" never let him take the blink drive and mass-manufacture it for his army that sets Four on the course he ultimately takes (more on that later). Four also notes in this conversation that Portia usually got her way, which might be a nod to the idea that if Two had known, she would've been able to stop Four from getting his memories back.

- Four and Two's goodbye conversation. I think he makes a slip here, when he tells her that if he questions his regained memories now, "all this sacrifice would've been for nothing." I think it's what's left of Four speaking there. Four didn't want to turn back into Ryo; that's why he held out so long against taking back his memories, and it was only his hallucination basically convincing him that he could have more control than that that led him to do it. (And the thing about that is, the hallucination was caused by the virus, which wanted to destroy Four. So it makes sense that the hallucination's "advice" appears to have been really shitty.) Four's statement about not missing Portia Lin, also, plays so different upon a rewatch. At first watch, I just found it a really beautiful moment, Four's talk of the difference between Portia and Two and his apparent approval of said difference. Now? Well, more on that later.

- Then Four visits the Android, and it's another conversation that seemed lovely at first watch and now takes on a more sinister meaning. Like maybe he's trying to sow some trouble. What is in the Android's memories, anyway? The way he talked, the reason Two - and Five! - modifying her isn't anything that we heard speculated by Five in the previous episode. Then again, it might not be about that at all, he might just want her to retrieve her memories for a different reason altogether and her curiosity about Two and Five's motives is merely the hook to get her to do so. I really don't believe his "I always liked you" comment. It got an awwwww out of me at first watch (even though feeling like it was a bit fan-ficcy), but on a rewatch, from this Four who is more Ryo than Four? In no way do I think Ryo had a big fondness for the Android.

- And now I get to the ending sequence. Nyx learns the truth, and Four does seem to be bothered by this. This could have ramifications down the road, if the crew decides the way to handle Four is to wipe his Ryo memories again. Because while Four never did anything to the original crew, he did do something to Nyx. He was Four, not Ryo, when he talked to Milo about suicide. I could see her voting against wiping his memories again for that reason, and leaving the crew (noooooooo!) if they go ahead. On the other hand, while Four put the idea in Milo's head, Milo ultimately had the choice, and the fact he went through with it indicates he thought Four was right. If Nyx is going to be fair, she has to look at that too. Four didn't murder Milo.

- The Android pretends to the Empress that she doesn't care about the crew, which the crew and viewers know is bullshit. Point being, she cannot threaten Four with pretended apathy to the crew's welfare like she did the Empress. Four knows the Android won't take an order from anyone other than Two about taking actions that would jeopardize the crew, and he also knows that while Two might give such an order in regards to herself (as she did in last week's episode), she would never do so in regards to the rest of the crew. That's why she didn't take the crew on Four's excursion down to the planet, because she thought there was something not right about the plan and she wasn't going to endanger everyone to do it. As of the end of this episode, all of the crew is in Four's hands except for the Android, so it's a probable standoff between Four and the Android; however, the Android can be controlled through her concern for her crew. (Might Four also think that whatever memories the Android has, if she retrieves them, make a difference somehow?) But if the Android knows of a potential physical weakness of Four's that she can exploit...that would level the playing field.

- And this brings me to my final speculation: Everyone thinks the plan to go down to Zairon is a stupid, foolish one, it's why Two refuses to commit her crew to it, Six and Three are similarly dubious, and yet Four embarks on that course of action even though he isn't a stupid or foolish man. While his trust in Drago appears to have been justified, there's a million other things that could've gone wrong anyway, and it's certainly clear that somehow the Empress knows what's going on. So why did Four really go through with this? I think it goes back to his conversations with Six and Two. He doesn't just want the throne, he wants the blink drive, and he knew Six would oppose him in that, and while Six doesn't actually speak for the rest of the crew the way he presumed to in that conversation, it's not hard to predict that Two wouldn't like the idea either, nor Nyx, nor Five. And Three will always go along with Two, and the Android will not hand over the blink drive against Two's orders. (Just like Portia, Two usually gets her way...) As for his conversation with Two, that apparent "compliment" about how her strength comes partly from compassion? She wouldn't take the crew on his foolish expedition down to Zairon, but he knew that she would come to rescue him afterwards. She always comes for her people. (And indeed, as soon as that was shown on TV, she was the first person to say they needed to go get him.) Whereas Portia would've left him to try to extricate himself from his own foolishness or to rot altogether. So yeah, he doesn't miss Portia Lin. Two came, and brought everyone but the Android with her, and now they're in his power...which means he has leverage to get the blink drive.

- One final comment: Four said that Portia's ruthlessness came from insecurity, and we see that Ryo's ruthlessness is just the same. There was no reason but insecurity to kill Hiro. I know parallel Portia and Boone told him that Hiro tried to get democratic notions going (probably in response to Ryo being such a bloody emperor), but that didn't mean he had to kill Hiro right away. He could have tried other things, considering Hiro really did love his brother, wasn't interested in being Emperor himself, etc. Maybe not be such a bloody emperor, or exiling Hiro, or whatever. Having his throat cut immediately, before there was even a chance of things going bad between them, is insecurity.

Edited September 10, 2016 by Black Knight

[Latverian Diplomat]

I guess this puts Ryo in a pretty strong negotiating position to get the blink drive.

I'm not sure why five was the one to peel off by herself? Unless they thought that was really easy to get to the Emperor as opposed to getting to Ryo? Or were they just trying to be unpredictable?

[Terrafamilia]

29 minutes ago, Latverian Diplomat said:

I'm not sure why five was the one to peel off by herself? Unless they thought that was really easy to get to the Emperor as opposed to getting to Ryo? Or were they just trying to be unpredictable?

Because she had the crews' memories and had relived parts of Four's last season she had a better, "firsthand",  knowledge of the palace that the others lacked even if she did fill them in the best she could.

[Latverian Diplomat]

18 minutes ago, Terrafamilia said:

Because she had the crews' memories and had relived parts of Four's last season she had a better, "firsthand",  knowledge of the palace that the others lacked even if she did fill them in the best she could.

Good point. Still, it seems like having three or six along would have been a good idea normally. The Seers were pretty dismissive of her, which worked out well for her being off on her own. Was that lucky or good, in terms of planning the mission?

[Black Knight]

If she'd had Three or Six along, then when the rest got captured the Seers would've told the Empress to send guards to check on the Emperor. Two knew that her group was going to be captured; it was all about making the Empress think she had everyone who mattered.

[Terrafamilia]

1 minute ago, Latverian Diplomat said:

Good point. Still, it seems like having three or six along would have been a good idea normally. The Seers were pretty dismissive of her, which worked out well for her being off on her own. Was that lucky or good, in terms of planning the mission?

A little bit of both maybe. It did look like a lightbulb lit up over Two's head when they were discussing how the Empress could have been aware of their plans if that general hadn't spilled.

[Latverian Diplomat]

1 minute ago, Black Knight said:

If she'd had Three or Six along, then when the rest got captured the Seers would've told the Empress to send guards to check on the Emperor. Two knew that her group was going to be captured; it was all about making the Empress think she had everyone who mattered.

I get that, but that makes it seem like the plan was to get captured (except for five), which, is not usually a great plan, and not the kind of thing three would ordinarily be happy with, IMHO.

[Garnett7]

I love Three and Five together and their cute little sibling dynamic. I like Three seeing though everyone's BS.

Four -- dang! Can we take his memories back again? Killing his brother was a step too far. Off'ing the others I got, but not his brother who was a good guy.

Three seems uninterested in getting his memories back so I suspect he will end up with them back somehow whether he wants to or not. They all might.

[MissLucas]

First episode was great - Five and Three make great buddies even if they won't admit it. Five's shock when waking up to all the carnage was a good reminder that Three might have a heart of gold yet he's still a ruthless and efficient killer if needs be. They had some great scenes together especially in the woods. I liked Three admitting that from the moment Five had managed to sneak into his quarters and removed his ammo he had stopped underestimating her - nice callback. I was a bit surprised by Three's decision to not kill Kieran's clone - but maybe he wanted Kieran to know that he had been right about another corporation being involved in the incident on Iriden-3.

It's interesting that both Varrick and Kierken want the same thing: taking down the corporations, but one wants to do so within the system and the other one is willing to go full anarchy. His idea of ruling the whole galaxy by blink drive didn't sound bonkers at all *eyeroll* And good to know that both he and the Android have a kill-switch on each other.

I loved the score on this episode - it was tight and reminded me of the score of the first episode during the break-out.

Second episode was a mixed bag. Four getting his memories back brought some interesting dynamics: Two hiding from him, Three feeling scared by what Four might remember about him, Six admitting to Five that he had known about the GA mass-murdering plans and still returned to his mission. My favorite was probably what Four said to Two - outlining the differences between her and Portia Lin.

The whole cloak and dagger plot was pretty meh. None of these folks should ever try their hands again at a conspiracy - incl. Ryo himself whose ass was saved because he's got loyal friends and because the Seers suck at their job. I know I've been down that road many times before but one moment those dudes are powerful enough to have evaded detection for many cycles (meaning they've got access to all sorts of intel beyond ordinary mind-melding) and the next they think Five 'does not matter' (meaning they don't have access to that sort of knowledge ). Glad they got Red-Weddinged.

Unfortunately the return of the Seers wasn't the worst thing about this episode (and that's saying something) - that was the commander of the imperial guard. So Ryo pulled a Calvin on her Susie Derkins when they were kids? And now her heart is broken and so is her brain because the cackling empress was such a cartoonish villain that only an idiot would have actually bought her story about the murder of the old emperor. It was clear the other folks in the imperial council knew damn well what was going on and voted as expected to save their skins. Her vote on the other hand was a tired 'hell hath no fury'-trope I wish I had never seen on this show. Oh, and I noticed her look at Nyx, blah.

As for Ryo's final orders: color me not surprised and not even shocked. As someone up-thread posted he became the man his father wanted him to be. To be fair: getting rid of the empress and her minions plus the Seers wasn't such a bad move. The one shocking order was to kill his half-brother as well. I wonder if they're willing to go dark enough to sacrifice his character for good to the show's premise - i.e. change is only possible when you can truly start afresh. Maybe it will turn out to be somewhat more nuanced and we'll see one of the others regain his/her memories without go full dark-side afterwards. That would mean that both sides of the underlying nature/nurture argument could have a point. Anyhow - I don't think it's possible for Four to come back after this. Not even after a mind-wipe. For the time being he's off the Raza and I hope the crew managed to get out of Dodge before he could get his hands on the blink drive.

[Black Knight]

36 minutes ago, Latverian Diplomat said:

I get that, but that makes it seem like the plan was to get captured (except for five), which, is not usually a great plan, and not the kind of thing three would ordinarily be happy with, IMHO.

Indeed it wasn't a great plan, but from their perspective, they didn't have a choice, because it was either that or leave Four to be executed. (Which Ryo was counting on, I believe.) As Six and Two discussed on the ship, the Empress knew they'd come. Two probably figured out at that moment that it was the Seers whispering in the Empress's ear, but either way, they knew the Empress would know. The crew has been very consistent from early on that they will come for any of their people, no matter how dangerous or likely to end in death it is, so it wasn't a hard prediction for the Seers or Ryo. Their "plan" for retrieving Three and Five in the previous episode was even shittier (actually, I'd pretty much call it nonexistent) and the only reason Two, Four, Nyx and Six didn't die in a fiery explosion then was because Five blew up the place just seconds earlier.

I'm sure Three wasn't crazy about it, but he's as hardcore "don't leave your people" as anyone else aboard and he always does what Two says. For Three more than anyone else, she really is the boss and he may kick up but he follows orders.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Black Knight

[sjohnson]

1 hour ago, Terrafamilia said:

A little bit of both maybe. It did look like a lightbulb lit up over Two's head when they were discussing how the Empress could have been aware of their plans if that general hadn't spilled.

Yes, the implication is that Two devised a plan within the plan, expecting the Seers to predict the obvious one, everyone rescuing Ryo. The secret plan was the real goal to rescue Hiro to complete the coup...and they use their weakest player to take the decisive piece. 

Still think that Ryo was more interested in killing the Empress, but killing Hiro's mother instead of exiling or imprisoning her could have made him a mortal enemy, as well as being a potential rival for the throne. Therefore Hiro had to go. 

[Clanstarling]

On ‎9‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 7:41 AM, lordonia said:

I liked Four parceling out bits of pre-wipe info that he thought would benefit each person/android. But yeah, I guess I need to call him Ryo from now on. Interesting that he admires Two more than he did Portia, especially considering their past.

As he was doing this, I thought, "look at those smiles, he's gotten back some warmth with his memories," and then...not so much.

15 hours ago, Garnett7 said:

Three seems uninterested in getting his memories back so I suspect he will end up with them back somehow whether he wants to or not. They all might.

This was an interesting bit that I took at face value at first - Three thinking Ryo was avoiding him because he was being considerate - so Three didn't really want to know what Ryo knew. @Black Knight got me thinking about looking at Ryo's interactions from a different perspective, I wonder if Ryo was avoiding Three because Three's memories have the key to taking him down and Ryo didn't want risk to triggering them (since, if I recall, like the Android's, they're still in the brain, just not readily accessible).

I was shocked when Ryo killed Hiro. The others, not at all. Four was just as ruthless. I guess the Empress was so hate-worthy, I didn't consider that Hiro (however upset with her he might be) might become dangerous when Ryo exacted his revenge.

And now, for something completely shallow. Did Kris Holden Reid change his facial hair? That is, he was clean shaven in the episode and looked odd to me. I don't remember if that's the way he looked in the previous episodes. I prefer his unshaved look, myself. But he's still pretty.

[Loandbehold]

Quote

 Did Kris Holden Reid change his facial hair? That is, he was clean shaven in the episode and looked odd to me. I don't remember if that's the way he looked in the previous episodes.

He did shave. The previouslies showed him with his usual facial hair.

[Shanna Marie]

On 9/10/2016 at 0:39 PM, kryss said:

Rescuing Five from slavers, "she's not a kid", the almost mortal injury and self sacrifice; all the stuff with Three and Five felt like bad fan fiction.

I think that's my issue with Three in general -- he's basically the "bad boy with a heart of gold" character trope as it's portrayed in bad fan fiction, where the fan writers take a character who might actually be kind of interesting and then go about woobifying him -- giving him the sad backstory that shows that him being a criminal, killer, or whatever was out of his control and not really his fault, and actually he's just a victim, really -- and then softening him further by giving him a close relationship with the most vulnerable cast member. The gold-hearted bad boy being wounded when coming to the rescue of the most vulnerable cast member and then being tended to while he bravely sacrifices himself by trying to insult her into leaving is exactly the kind of fanfic story that tends to get written about this kind of character. I might have enjoyed this character if I'd never watched TV before and had never been exposed to the kind of discussion and speculation that tends to go on about this kind of character. As it is, I find myself rolling my eyes a lot. Then again, maybe it's smart to take the fanfic version of the trope and make him canon, since obviously that type speaks to a lot of people.

I find it odd that they're building the story toward a massive war against (and maybe between?) corporations, and they killed the character who's directly involved in that situation, who provided a personal link to that storyline. That seems like very bad planning, unless the big season finale cliffhanger twist is One (or Moss) showing up again and we learn that the death was a hoax.

[FurryFury]

Quote

unless the big season finale cliffhanger twist is One (or Moss) showing up again and we learn that the death was a hoax.

Please no.

[DearEvette]

Quick thoughts about the two eps:

First ep was fun, but it almost felt like filler because honestly it didn't really do anything to move the plot along except to reinforce that Three is a decent guy underneath and loyal to his crew.  The only other thing I really rather liked about Ep. 1 was that it make Keirkan that much more interesting.  He is a great adversary for the Raza and I am wavering between wondering if he is an ethical adversary or not.  Also he was bleeding actual blood from his nose, would a clone do that?  I don't remember if they showed him actually getting out of one of the pods?

But mostly, I was impatient to see what was going to happen with Four.  So the second episode delivered like gangbusters!

What I found so fascinating was that of all the Raza crew (except for the Moss as One) he wasn't guilty of what he was accused of.  He wasn't the killing monster for what he was wanted for.  So there seemed some grey area there possibly.  Welp, I guess that didn't matter, he may not have killed his father but he certainly had the potential for it.  Maybe he just hadn't gotten around to it.

I really liked how the Seers played in.  I was rather impatient about them honestly, but their inclusion here was rather well done.  And even though Nyx found out about Four's role in Milo's suicide, maybe his killing the Seers is a little bit of payback.  At least she doesn't have to worry about looking over her shoulder all the time anymore. But man i felt bad for her given that it seems like her and Four's relationship was a bit more than just sexy times.

The way the ep played out was really well done.  It looked like Ryo was being played and doomed to failure when he turned it all on everyone.  I was super surprised he killed his brother but frankly I won't miss Hiro.  He was basically journalling in his room while his Mother staged a coup and took over shit.  This was the one thing that kinda rang a bit false . He was the emperor.  Why was it so easy for the guards to quickly change allegiance to his mother allowing him to stay imprisoned in his room, yet the minute he showed up accusing her and abdicates in favor of Ryo they became Ryo's immediately loyal guards in a nanosecond.  Why wouldn't Hiro have had that same loyalty at the drop of a word?  Why was it so easy for his mother to take over?

Anyway, That ending just rocked.  I can't wait to see what happens and how the Raza crew can come out of this intact? 

[Black Knight]

22 hours ago, sjohnson said:

Yes, the implication is that Two devised a plan within the plan, expecting the Seers to predict the obvious one, everyone rescuing Ryo. The secret plan was the real goal to rescue Hiro to complete the coup...and they use their weakest player to take the decisive piece. 

Still think that Ryo was more interested in killing the Empress, but killing Hiro's mother instead of exiling or imprisoning her could have made him a mortal enemy, as well as being a potential rival for the throne. Therefore Hiro had to go. 

Yes, there's a practical argument for why Hiro had to die. But it still goes to the comment Ryo made about how ruthlessness can stem from insecurity. Hiro was a relatively ineffective and unscary man and Ryo could have at least discussed it with him afterwards to assess how alienated or likely to be a threat Hiro was. If a threat, imprisonment or exile were options. Choosing to wipe Hiro out immediately is insecurity on Ryo's part. Not that there isn't some reason for him to be insecure, but it's insecurity nonetheless. As I noted earlier, it's Hiro's death that's a bridge too far for Two (who is no fainting heart where vengeance is concerned - she shot Corso dead, she spaced Wexler...). She's surprised at the rest of the bloodshed, but it's only when Hiro's throat gets cut that she yells "Four!" in a tone of "You are WAY over the line, pull yourself back now!" The Empress and her lackey and the Seers were already known problems who had threatened them before, while Hiro had actually sided with Ryo.

I'm curious to see what Ryo says to the crew about Hiro's death. If he tells them about what parallel Portia and Boone told him about Hiro trying to bring in some democratic notions, he might be able to sway them towards the "I had a practical argument, I'm not just being bloodthirsty" side of looking at things. But the really key thing is whether this was all a set-up on Ryo's part to lure the crew off their ship so that he could get them within his power and thus get the blink drive, as I speculated, or if he didn't plan it. Because if this is the former, then he is the betrayer Milo warned of. But if it's the latter, he hasn't betrayed the crew. Yet, anyway. If he refuses to let them go, demanding the blink drive as ransom, that would then turn him into a traitor. If he doesn't do that, then the role of traitor remains open as yet.

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I find it odd that they're building the story toward a massive war against (and maybe between?) corporations, and they killed the character who's directly involved in that situation, who provided a personal link to that storyline. That seems like very bad planning, unless the big season finale cliffhanger twist is One (or Moss) showing up again and we learn that the death was a hoax.

One is not the only character who's directly involved in that situation, who provided a personal link. All the rest of the crew, save Nyx, have personal grudges against the corporations now, and they're caught in the middle of Ferrous vs. Mikkei for reasons explained by the GA guy here. By the same token, "Who ordered One's murder?" is a more interesting question and a better umbrella storyline (it's something all the original crew members care about), than "Who ordered the murder of One's wife?", something that only One cared about. The writers have thus been able to transition the stories in order to erase the gaps that were created by the elimination of One from the crew, and ultimately improved them, because MB made every story he was in boring and would have made this boring too. The show realized it made a mistake with the casting of MB and that it couldn't continue to let him drag the show down. It's too bad they made that casting mistake, but it is what it is. There were some initial costs in terms of storylines and relationships, but dumping MB was still a net gain.

On a different subject, something just hit me about Ryo and the Android's conversation: Ryo tells the Android that Emily and Portia modified her. But in the parallel universe, Emily never stowed away on the Raza. So was the parallel Android modified in a different way than this universe's Android, and/or for different reasons?

I read an interview with Mallozzi where he says that we'll have to wait for S3 to find out more about why Portia modified the Android. Hurry up, 2017...

[steelyis]

I'm hoping they came down in clone bodies, because Ryo is going to insist on getting that blink drive.

[sjohnson]

The remarks above about the Boone/Dass story playing like fan fiction are pretty on the nail I thought. Boone is a derivative, cliched character who will over time damage the series in a way One never could have. My opinion of course. 

Thinking about the title, my guess is that Ryo's murder of Hiro is supposed to be the forced decision, that letting him live is supposed to be the choice life wouldn't let him make. 

[tennisgurl]

Personally, I still find Three to be an interesting character, even if he is a bit of a cliche Bad Boy with a Heart of Gold. I think his second season backstory is more interesting than his Dead Girlfriend story from season 1. Its more like he was a kid who had a horrible thing happened to him, and become a murderous asshole in an attempt to survive being raised by criminals, and falling into a sort of Stockholm Syndrome father/son relationship with the man who destroyed his life. Three is more of who he would have been if none of that had happened, but with some of the extra asshole baggage. Plus, I think the stuff with him last week, that being Three instead of Boone is leading him to become more emotionally unstable and depressed, is pretty interesting and rather sad. 

So much stuff went down with these episodes, especially the second one. The first episode was a fun adventure, and I really enjoyed seeing all the relationships between the crew. I loved Nyx and Four and Two hanging out at the bar, goofing around and being friends. Even Four was laughing and having fun! Given what happens next episode, this whole scene is actually pretty sad, which leads me to...

The second episode, where shit gets real. I liked the return of the seers, and everything with that, but the real meat is the return of Ryo, and what seems to be the end of Four. I feel like Four REALLY underestimated how ruthless Ryo was, and overestimated how much he could combine Four and Ryo into one, perfect leader to save his people. I really think that Four had noble reasons to want to leave the crew and become Ryo again. We saw last week, in his hallucination, that he wants to help his people, and he feels guilty that they are struggling while he hangs out with the Raza crew and enjoys being less of an asshole. This episode also, to me, shows that Ryo and Four, despite coming off as somewhat similar, are very different. While Four is certainly pragmatic and has no issue killing, he had a quiet confidence, and a nobility, and a desire to help his people, not just make mad grabs for power. Ryo is cold as ice, and his killing of his brother shows that he has some of that insecurity that he accused Portia of having, a need to prove his toughness. Its especially sad considering the last episode has Four actually showing warmth, humor, and loyalty to the crew, and now that person is essentially gone. Unless he realizes that Ryo is not a person he wants to be anymore, and he wipes his memories again. Even then, he still will have killed his brother though. It would be a cop out to just make him Four again, but I would miss him on the show if he was stuck as Ryo forever. 

Cant wait for the conclusion!

[wanderingstar]

Quote

Three is protective of not only her, but the whole crew as he claimed he acted alone. 

I know! He had a chance to blame Six and get him hauled away by the GA for good, and he didn't do it. 

[Black Knight]

36 minutes ago, Gillian Rosh said:

I know! He had a chance to blame Six and get him hauled away by the GA for good, and he didn't do it. 

Speaking of, we can count E11 as yet another episode in which Six saved Three. Heh. But E12 has broken the streak, unless there was a moment I'm forgetting.

I've been catching up on interviews with Mallozzi, and he makes it clear that he's unabashedly a fan himself. That's where the whole Three/Five thing came from this episode; he really wanted to put those two together for a good chunk of time and have fun with their interactions. And to be honest I don't mind that considering the way everything went to hell in the next episode. At the same time, I think there was a bit of a darker lining there that connects back to when he got talked by the virus into killing himself: When Five tells him that he's not going to make it, he immediately assumes she's talking about his life, as opposed to what she actually meant about not being able to walk the whole way, and asks if he should shoot himself or she should. It's a little wry in tone, but still, telling that that's how he interpreted her statement. And he's pretty fast to give up hope for himself - he wants Five to get to safety, but he doesn't seem to much care if he does, choosing to have a firefight in which he's only not killed because it turns out the GA guy wanted him taken alive. It's not like he didn't know that his crew would be coming for him. He may not be trying to shoot himself in the head again, but he's somewhat apathetic about remaining alive.

11 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I feel like Four REALLY underestimated how ruthless Ryo was, and overestimated how much he could combine Four and Ryo into one, perfect leader to save his people.

Yup, this is exactly what I felt Ryo/Four was talking about when he said that line to Two about how all this sacrifice would have been for nothing. I felt like that was what was left of the old Four expressing awareness that he underestimated how much Ryo would dominate, and all he's got to hang onto now is that it must not be for nothing. It was the hallucination that convinced him he could combine his past and present selves without losing too much of his present self, and seeing as how the hallucination was created by the virus that wanted to destroy the crew, in hindsight that should have been a warning bell to the audience that Four accessing his old memories was exactly what he should not do.

Which makes me wonder about Two's hallucination now. Three's hallucination convinced him to attempt suicide, Four's hallucination also convinced him to essentially commit a form of suicide. So what was the hallucination trying to do with Two, exactly? We know she's scared of Rook and of being sawed open, but she wasn't actually going to get sawed open by that hallucination. Did the virus anticipate that other crew members would come looking for Two and that she'd try to kill them? Was that its endgame there, Two murdering others, rather than Two killing herself? Or are there going to be future ramifications from that hallucination, like there was in Four's case?

[Wouter]

On 10-9-2016 at 2:43 PM, sjohnson said:

Boone killing all five brothers for Emily was supposed to be a heartwarming feat of heroism? I guess, given they go around just snatching random young women. That's radical mean, all right. How nice for Boone that the script offers up clearly marked villains to slaughter.

Varrick's discussions about what he was like before raised the interesting question of whether his friend lied. Trying to remember the time line, though, I'm having trouble figuring how his temper tantrum after the bombing leads to him infiltrating the Raza without reconciling himself to GA. Also, his interpretation of them allowing the destruction of the station as just for political points may be correct...but it may be incomplete, as in threatening their other infiltration agent in the General's camp, the one who tipped them off about the raid. That guy who Varrick's clone saw when he "assassinated" the General's clone is the one I'm thinking of. There may have been a Coventry-type, Imitation Game decision?

Varrick's crazed notion that one ship will police the galaxy's crises does pretty well reflect his belief that he's qualified to act as instantaneous judge, jury and executioner. It is obvious from this episode that one ship, even with a blink drive, is hard pressed to intervene on a single planet even when the script reduces it to a handful of small rooms with even fewer characters.

As to Ryo being more or less monstrous, this is exactly what he's been all along. The fact that he's mostly nice to his friends when it doesn't really cost his ambitions anything is not a high bar to leap, is it? Over all I'd say this was a moral catastrophe for humanity, giving Zairon a super fleet. I could have sworn I heard Ryo singing under his breath, "First we take Manhattan, then we take Berlin!"

 

The show did make the villains bad enough so we could applaud Boone to kill them, but that happens in real life too (for example: see IS executioner being shot by sniper, right before he would have turned his flamethrower on the people to be executed). On the other hand, with Four/Ryo they have not been pulling any punches; he has consistently been a chilling character, even when the audience viewed him as more or less a good guy.

The GA guy who met Varrick/Six right after "killing" the General, was Lt. Anders, the very same man who used to be his friend - until they shot each other over the escape of the Raza crew. We still don't know if Anders survived that.

I think the flashback in S1 made it clear that Varrick was very upset with the bombing, right after the leader of the General's cell had admitted it was the plan all along. Afterwards, he learned the GA had known about that part of the plan, too, but he still returned to work (infiltrating the Raza). Because he lost his memories like all the others, we still aren't certain what his actual views and plans at that time were. I'm guessing that will be re-visited, down the road somewhere.

I was taken aback by Varrick's notion that the Raza could take on everyone else by itself. That's at least the GA, Ferrous, Mikkei, Volkov (or whatever the name was of that Russian sounding supercompany) and presumably Traugott, White Dwarf and other companies have equivalent fleets. In addition, Zairon and Pyr are only two of several independant territories large and powerful enough to have their own navies, and then there are entities like the seers and various criminal groups, not too forget the rebellion of the General. Six may expect many of those to take out one another, but still, he needs to have his head checked. One can only imagine the carnage that would cause.

With Ryo/Four, DM is not playing it safe. Arguably, they took someone who could be considered a protagonist and made him into a villain (though a complex one). Much like the Red Wedding, the audience can see his move coming, but still almost everyone is shocked when it happens.

Consider what hints we have been given:

-In the very first episode, there is the dream five tells about: "I gouged their eyes out". That was the first "WTF?" moment in DM, if we ignore the bizarre opening fight between Two and One (one of the shows worst scenes). Afterwards, we learn it was a memory from Ryo.

-In the third episode, the Raza gets stranded and the crew fears sabotage. Everybody has to pass the lie detector test. Question: "Do you mean any of the passengers on this ship any harm?" Four: "Not yet".

-the Five-retrieved memories of the Zairon court show papa emperor is not exactly a nice man, raising his son  to be hard

-The infamous stabbing of Akita, the most shocking moment in DM prior to One's death. It was Four, and while it was not identical to what Ryo did in this episode (Akita had attempted to capture him, while his brother had been cooperating) it was a warning shot. One later asked why he did it, and Four answered "he was a threat". I believe Mallozzi when he claims that he had turns like this planned from the beginning.

-Four is generally the most bloodthirsty of the crew, something I particularly noticed during the raid on the Traugott facility.

-The scene with Milo in season 2: we are warned of a betrayal and we see Four urging Milo to kill himself, in line with his usual behaviour.

-The hallucination: Four shows insecurity, fears that he is viewed as a weakling and coward on Zairon

 

But on the other hand, he also surprised with a soft side sometimes, chief of which is the revelation that Ryo casted the vote that saved Five's life (or in any case, allowed her to stay on board). Four took it on himself to teach Five how to use weapons (something he will probably not regret, given how well that worked for him in this episode). Four saved Two's life in the Dwarf Star lab in Earth orbit. Four showed camaderie at times. Enough that most wanted that side to be dominant in him, enough that his actions are still shocking.

On 10-9-2016 at 2:52 PM, Chaos Theory said:

Is Four the one that is going to betray the crew this year?    That was what Nyx's brother said.  "Someone would betray the crew" and he said it to four.  Irony huh?

 

It looks like he is the betrayer, but if he lets them go now and doesn't demand the blink drive he could still technically avoid that "honour". However, given that he badly needs the blink drive - the alternative is to be a not entirely undisputed emperor of a nation about to suffer a bitter defeat - the chance that he is not the betrayer seems remote, at this time.

On 10-9-2016 at 3:50 PM, SimoneS said:

These were two solid episodes. Three has come a long way. I chuckled when the guy told him that Five wasn't a "kid." Three is protective of not only her, but the whole crew as he claimed he acted alone. 

I was surprised by the Seers appearance. I didn't see them coming. Poor Nyx. She is gorgeous. Four's brutal actions in the end were in character. I will never forget how he killed the man who trained him and was helping him escape. I still like his romance with Nyx, but she is fortunate to get away from Four for now. Hopefully, in time, he will decide to make better choices. His poor brother. He was innocent, but every correct decision that he made led to his death.

Kierkan is a good adversary for the Raza crew. I can see him becoming a reluctant ally when the war starts.

I was also surprised by the involvement of the Seers; I bought the too-obvious misdirection that that general or somebody near him was betraying him. I'm glad they got taken out (at least the leaders, which should limit the abilities of the rest of them, at least for a while) as they got to be annoying.

Rewatching the episode, it was clear that Two realised their involvement after Four was taken and planned appropriately. I can accept that Five was considered a non-entity by the seers; her active role is known to very few people outside the Raza and most of those are dead. The exceptions are Arax and Reynaud. Misreading Ryo is also not too surprising, even the people close to him didn't see it coming.

Three did come a long way, and surprisingly he is the first of the Raza crew to see that telling Kierken about the corporations may not be a bad thing. That he let Kierken keep the memories was a very smart move from him, and indeed there could be a strange alliance of convenience in the works. The Raza crew has so much dirt on various corporations...

On 10-9-2016 at 6:31 PM, AzureOwl said:

The thing about that, is that it makes complete sense in the context of how their prescience is supposed to work. They don't see the future, the predict the most likely outcome based on the information they have. So if they don't have complete data, their predictions can turn out wrong.

They have no way of knowing about Five's true abilities and capabilities, leading them to underestimate her and miss-predict her actions.

They have no way of knowing about the Android's modifications, hence their failure to predict that she'd jump the Raza right on top of the imperial palace.

 

That was the biggest revelation of the episode in my opinion. Until now we have all pretty much operation on the assumption that the memory wipe happened almost immediately after Five came aboard the ship. But now we know this was not the case. There was a period of time long enough between her being discovered aboard and the memory wipe for her to become a member of the crew and assist Portia with her alterations of the Android. 

This puts a lot of things in a different perspective.

At the time that Ryo said "Das and Portia did it together", I wondered if he was lying. I'm still not entirely sure if he was telling the truth. If he did, that is indeed a surprising revelation. Just what was Das/Fives role before the mindwipe? Why was the Android modified in the alternate universe, as well?

On 10-9-2016 at 9:04 PM, Terrafamilia said:

No wonder Zairon is loosing the war. Mama Empress is willing to blow up six of Zairon's own battle cruisers to stomp on their command crews.

That struck me too. Zairon is really a total cutthroat environment. With hindsight, the actions of the Empress don't seem so uber-villainous now; she may actually have been right that this was the only way to protect her son. She may be normal for Zairon nobility, she just happened to strike first.

The loss of 6 valuable warships (and crews), and damage to two more, underscores the need of Ryo to secure the blink drive. Else it will be game over soon, against Pyr.

If Ryo does not attempt, or fails in an attempt to take the blink drive, his reign may be shortlived and his story could end worse than One's did (at least he died with his honour and friendship intact).

Edited September 13, 2016 by Wouter

[Black Knight]

6 hours ago, Wouter said:

At the time that Ryo said "Das and Portia did it together", I wondered if he was lying. I'm still not entirely sure if he was telling the truth. If he did, that is indeed a surprising revelation. Just what was Das/Fives role before the mindwipe? Why was the Android modified in the alternate universe, as well?

So happy you finally chimed in, Wouter! And you did not disappoint, with your excellent rundown of clues and characterization from the start of S1 onwards.

Yeah, I'm still wondering about Ryo's conversation with the Android myself. It does make some sense to me that in this universe, in which Emily/Das did stow away, Das would have been involved since she knows more about tech than anyone. It might be that in both universes, Portia wanted to modify the Android, and in this one she either asked Das for help (unlikely), or Das noticed the Android was changing and looked into the situation and Portia grudgingly allowed Das to work with her on it because Das had good ideas (more plausible).

Another question that emerges is that if Das really was tighter with the crew and for longer than we'd previously thought, did she tell them about the device she'd stolen, for which her friends had been murdered? And if so, did they ever find out what the device was? Because man, can you imagine if Portia or Ryo or Boone knew about the blink drive? That could have played a role in what happened before they went into the pods.

[Oracle42]

On 9/10/2016 at 6:21 PM, Black Knight said:

Four said that Portia's ruthlessness came from insecurity, and we see that Ryo's ruthlessness is just the same. There was no reason but insecurity to kill Hiro. I know parallel Portia and Boone told him that Hiro tried to get democratic notions going (probably in response to Ryo being such a bloody emperor), but that didn't mean he had to kill Hiro right away. He could have tried other things, considering Hiro really did love his brother, wasn't interested in being Emperor himself, etc. Maybe not be such a bloody emperor, or exiling Hiro, or whatever. Having his throat cut immediately, before there was even a chance of things going bad between them, is insecurity.

Hiro was a threat and not necessarily  because he'd want revenge for his mother's execution. I think he and Ryo are too much their father's sons for that (they both seem pretty blase about violence), but because Hiro could constantly be used as an excuse for rebellion even if Hiro, himself wasn't involved. It was a ruthless move and it really disappointed me because I agree that it was made out of fear and insecurity. 

I do wonder whether Ryo would have murdered Hiro if the Empress hadn't publicly accused him of an assassination attempt. An abdication following an "assassination attempt" is a pretty good justification for rebellion and civil war

Edited September 14, 2016 by Oracle42

[MissLucas]

My main problem with Four's story is that we know so little about Zairon. It's obviously organized as a monarchy with some feudal structures but monarchies come in many different forms. Is there something like a proto-parliament (apparently not), a royal or imperial council (and if so, how do you get appointed), how is power structured, is there a nobility, what is the role of the military etc. and most importantly how is succession organized? If it's by primogeniture then Ryo's actions make no sense. He's heir to the title and Hiro could have easily cleared him from the charges of patricide (which in some monarchies was how sons succeeded anyway).

But some of the Empress' actions and Ryo's actions in the last episode seem to indicate more of an Ottoman method of succession (not regularly practiced though; most powerful son has his brothers and half-brothers killed, later they were just banished - and yes, mothers played an important part in the whole process).

And I still have no idea why Zairon is at war with Pyr. Also a non-entity in the whole thing: the people of Zairon. What are they thinking? Are they fervent supporters of the imperial house? Are they tired of an imperial family more occupied with its internal conflicts than the welfare of its people?

The whole story seems to take place in a structural vacuum that makes assessing the main players motives and actions pretty difficult.

Edited September 14, 2016 by MissLucas

[sjohnson]

^^^The Emperor Ryo story may just be Dark Matter really investing in its decision to forego redemption stories, in favor of Killjoy style badassery with snark. If so, they've got a long way to go before their quips are as good. 

[Wouter]

15 hours ago, Black Knight said:

So happy you finally chimed in, Wouter! And you did not disappoint, with your excellent rundown of clues and characterization from the start of S1 onwards.

Yeah, I'm still wondering about Ryo's conversation with the Android myself. It does make some sense to me that in this universe, in which Emily/Das did stow away, Das would have been involved since she knows more about tech than anyone. It might be that in both universes, Portia wanted to modify the Android, and in this one she either asked Das for help (unlikely), or Das noticed the Android was changing and looked into the situation and Portia grudgingly allowed Das to work with her on it because Das had good ideas (more plausible).

Another question that emerges is that if Das really was tighter with the crew and for longer than we'd previously thought, did she tell them about the device she'd stolen, for which her friends had been murdered? And if so, did they ever find out what the device was? Because man, can you imagine if Portia or Ryo or Boone knew about the blink drive? That could have played a role in what happened before they went into the pods.

Thanks for the kind words.

Mallozzi has indicated that Portia's motives regarding the Android will be revisited/explained in season 3.

I don't think pre-memory wipe Das even knew what the device was for. In the flashback that we saw (when she was living on the street, picking pockets) she had no idea what she had taken, only that men were willing to kill to get it back.

2 hours ago, MissLucas said:

My main problem with Four's story is that we know so little about Zairon. It's obviously organized as a monarchy with some feudal structures but monarchies come in many different forms. Is there something like a proto-parliament (apparently not), a royal or imperial council (and if so, how do you get appointed), how is power structured, is there a nobility, what is the role of the military etc. and most importantly how is succession organized? If it's by primogeniture then Ryo's actions make no sense. He's heir to the title and Hiro could have easily cleared him from the charges of patricide (which in some monarchies was how sons succeeded anyway).

But some of the Empress' actions and Ryo's actions in the last episode seem to indicate more of an Ottoman method of succession (not regularly practiced though; most powerful son has his brothers and half-brothers killed, later they were just banished - and yes, mothers played an important part in the whole process).

And I still have no idea why Zairon is at war with Pyr. Also a non-entity in the whole thing: the people of Zairon. What are they thinking? Are they fervent supporters of the imperial house? Are they tired of an imperial family more occupied with its internal conflicts than the welfare of its people?

The whole story seems to take place in a structural vacuum that makes assessing the main players motives and actions pretty difficult.

Zairon's exact structure is ill defined, but one thing is clear: the monarch seems to have absolute power and he is (usually; Hiro is kind of an exception, dominated by his mother) not a puppet of some warlord, as happened during parts of the history of Imperial Japan. If there is a parliament or council, it seems to have an "advise only" role. Emperor Ryo would act as a tyrant/dictator.

Ryo was the designated heir, only because of his supposed regicide did Hiro get the job instead. But he could still be a threat in two ways, as others have pointed out: as a focal point for a rebellion by military leaders in league with mama Empress or if he turns on Ryo himself because he didn't want his mother to be killed.

Papa Emperor banished Hiro and wanted Ryo to be cold and hard, which indicates that Zairons monarchy may be closer to the Ottoman empire than to Imperial Japan, in this regard.

IIRC it was mentioned that Pyr and Zairon are fighting over disputed territories. It may not be very different from the resource conflict between Mikkei and Ferrous.

2 hours ago, sjohnson said:

^^^The Emperor Ryo story may just be Dark Matter really investing in its decision to forego redemption stories, in favor of Killjoy style badassery with snark. If so, they've got a long way to go before their quips are as good. 

On Killjoys, we are supposed to cheer the snarking protagonists, though. I doubt Emperor Ryo's big move was meant to be applauded by the audience.

Mallozzi has claimed, on occasion, that not everybody will have a happy ending. One seems to be an example of that, but I suspect Four's story is not meant to end well, either.

On the other hand, I see quite a bit of redemption for Two and Three in the bulk of the S2 episodes. Especially Two seems miles away from Portia. Ironically, I wonder if that means she could survive re-integration of the old memories better than Four did. Four was never drastically different from Ryo, after all.

And we still don't know what CEO Derrick Moss was really like. One also lost his memory and potentially a part of his personality, so how well did we know him?

Edited September 14, 2016 by Wouter

[Black Knight]

1 hour ago, Wouter said:

I don't think pre-memory wipe Das even knew what the device was for. In the flashback that we saw (when she was living on the street, picking pockets) she had no idea what she had taken, only that men were willing to kill to get it back.

Right - what I'm wondering if she figured it out later, aboard the Raza. The Android would probably have been able to determine the function of the device if asked by Das to examine it. And if the Android was as loyal/grateful to Portia as the other Android, then she would've shared her findings with Portia. Or who knows, since it was (allegedly, per Ryo) a trio of Portia, Das and the Android bonding over the Android modification project, they might have all worked on the device together.

Re-examining Ryo's conversations is starting to give me a headache, though, because I keep going back and forth. Heh. I think it comes down to whether he deliberately set up the crew, which I would think we would learn next week. If he deliberately set up the crew, then obviously everything he said to Two and the Android is suspect and takes on a different, darker meaning. If he didn't deliberately set up the crew, however, then I figure I can probably take his conversations at face value - kind of like whatever's left of the old Four rising to the surface to say goodbye to Two and the Android before Ryo took over again.

Which brings me to something else. I pointed out earlier that the Empress called the Android's bluff, and Ryo certainly can as well since he knows the Android has feelings for the crew. But the reverse is true also; if Ryo demands the blink drive, the Android can call Ryo's bluff, and then we'd see if what Six said to Five is true. Is Ryo truly willing to kill the crew, who've been his family, who came there to save his life, for the blink drive? Do they matter more to him than Hiro did? Nyx was his lover, Three his partner on most missions, he was genuinely on the verge of tears when Two briefly died at Dwarf Star. Five's a teenager whom he once voted to save. So that leaves Six, but if he's only willing to kill Six that doesn't help him prove he's serious about killing the others too, and so it comes down to whether the Android is willing to let Six die. The Android could tell Ryo she doesn't consider Six part of the crew the way she does the others - which would go towards explaining why we didn't hear any of her viewpoint on Six until E11 - and then they could play a big game of chicken over Six. Who would blink first? Heh.

[Hanahope]

On 9/13/2016 at 11:57 PM, Oracle42 said:

Hiro was a threat and not necessarily  because he'd want revenge for his mother's execution. I think he and Ryo are too much their father's sons for that (they both seem pretty blase about violence), but because Hiro could constantly be used as an excuse for rebellion even if Hiro, himself wasn't involved. It was a ruthless move and it really disappointed me because I agree that it was made out of fear and insecurity. 

I see it like Queen Elizabeth did with Jane Grey.  Even if Grey/Hiro wasn't a threat themselves, others would rally behind them and cause insurrection that would weaken the monarch's rule.  Thus, they had to be killed.  It is ruthless, but sometimes necessary.  Otherwise, if the mother-empress were simply exiled, like Ryo was, she could always come back, just like Ryo did.  And if only she were killed, Hiro could harbor resentment that could make him eventually try to oust Ryo.

The question is whether Four/Ryo will get his way with reverse engineering the blink drive for his own use.

[maczero]

On 9/10/2016 at 0:07 AM, Chaos Theory said:

Its interesting to see how Four was different when he became Ryo.   At first you didn't see it but he was colder and ruthless.     

Throat slitting aside, I found Ryo to be a lot more personable and friendly than Four.  

On 9/13/2016 at 11:57 PM, Oracle42 said:

Hiro was a threat and not necessarily  because he'd want revenge for his mother's execution. I think he and Ryo are too much their father's sons for that (they both seem pretty blase about violence), but because Hiro could constantly be used as an excuse for rebellion even if Hiro, himself wasn't involved. It was a ruthless move and it really disappointed me because I agree that it was made out of fear and insecurity. 

I do wonder whether Ryo would have murdered Hiro if the Empress hadn't publicly accused him of an assassination attempt. An abdication following an "assassination attempt" is a pretty good justification for rebellion and civil war

I'm not sure I agree with the part in bold.  Hiro willingly abdicated the throne.  Those loyal to him most likely would have no reason to rebel on his behalf if they knew he really didn't want the throne.  Killing Hiro makes him a martyr so I can see his death leading to rebellion.