S01.E12: Madame X / S01.E13: Whistler's Mother

[iMonrey]

Quote

Sophie being the accomplice made sense, although what made less sense to me was why she started killing again.  She killed an old lady who was like family to her because "the cops were getting too close"?  I don't buy it.  I think the old lady would have protected her.

I also don't know how Alison figured out Sophie was the accomplice because she recognized the ripped paper in the painting as being in the old lady's house. When did Alison ever go into the old lady's house? I only remember Brady and *Detective Boston Accent going in to question her.

Quote

Sophie being the accomplice made sense, although what made less sense to me was why she started killing again.  She killed an old lady who was like family to her because "the cops were getting too close"?  I don't buy it.  I think the old lady would have protected her.

I forgot to mention: in the show's fervor to deliver a red herring that Naomi kidnapped/killed Alison, they ended up presenting us with a preposterous scenario in which Alison disappears and spends all night talking to union leaders in a warehouse so they can deliver her the union vote the very next day. And that she would be MIA at her own headquarters the morning of the election without bothering to notify anyone where she is. As if.

[augmentedfourth]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

Also, I missed the "Madame X" scene in the episode.  Where was it?  

I think, but I'm not positive, that the Madame X scene was when Naomi came back to Alison's office at night. I'd forgotten to look up the painting ahead of time (and it's not one I was familiar with off the top of my head), and I remember thinking at the moment that Naomi was standing kind of strangely. Then when I look, it kind of matched the pose, and I think she was wearing black.

 

21 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I also don't know how Alison figured out Sophie was the accomplice because she recognized the ripped paper in the painting as being in the old lady's house. When did Alison ever go into the old lady's house? I only remember Brady and *Detective Boston Accent going in to question her.

I think the final flashbacks indicated the detectives showed Alison photographs of the old lady's house (either crime scene photos, or just general photos to ask if she knew her), and that's where she saw the wallpaper. Even so, it's kind of a stretch, unless it was distinctive enough that it stuck in her mind.

[Cardie]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

When did Alison ever go into the old lady's house? I only remember Brady and *Detective Boston Accent going in to question her

Allison seemed to be looking at crime scene photos. Perhaps super-cop Brady just leaves them lying around wherever. 

[luvly]

2 hours ago, blackwing said:

Sophie being the accomplice made sense, although what made less sense to me was why she started killing again.  She killed an old lady who was like family to her because "the cops were getting too close"?  I don't buy it.  I think the old lady would have protected her.

It wasn't just that they were getting too close but that the old lady's memory was going and she might have slipped and mentioned her name. 

 

2 hours ago, blackwing said:

I didn't fully understand why Madeline took Mitchell's ashes out from his mausoleum and put in $500,000 and a passport.  Was it her passport?...By putting the money and the passport there, was she keeping them there just in case she had to flee the country?

Yeah, she was stashing money and a passport there in case she had to run. It's what her lawyer told her to do in a roundabout way when they were sitting outside on a bench and and having that hypothetical Boston Legal conversation. 

 

3 hours ago, blackwing said:

Neither did the theory that Tessa was the child of a Hispanic gardener.

Not really a plot hole. Tessa told Brady that she planted the hair to test him and that he failed. There may have been further viewer speculation that she was secretly part Hispanic, but it was explained in the show. 

[Sandman]

21 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Art was a running theme thoughout the show going so far as naming episodes after peices of art and imitating the artwork so I thought it was clever to compare serial killing to art even in a bizarre way.

From the beginning I expected we'd learn that the killer considered himself or herself an artist in some bloodcurdling and yet pretentious way. Congrats, Sophie!

8 hours ago, iMonrey said:

How about the big freaking list right on the hospital wall? Wouldn't that have been something of a giveaway? "Hey, look at that! All the donors on this wall  also happen to be SBK victims! What a co-inky-dink!"

This is what I meant, too: we're not considering all rich people who are donors to various charities in general, or even the subset of all rich people who are hospital donors; there's a much smaller list of significant donors to that particular hospital, at least five of whom (six, actually, but the police don't know that about the Hawthornes) who are also on the list of SBK's victims. The fact that the list is out in plain sight was what gave the killers their inspiration, but the police seem to have taken no notice of it -- even though the overlap isn't quite as strong as I thought, since I forgot that Morales wasn't actually an SBK victim (but the police don't know that, either).

8 hours ago, TigerLynx said:

Cam has killers on his side of the family to.  He doesn't know about Allison, but he knows about Maddie and Mitch.

He does know about Mitch, but does he know that Maddie killed both Morales and Mitch (And Jennifer Windham)? I think Alison learned more of the truth than any of the other siblings, including Garrett. I don't think Cam was correct to say that Jack's murderer-potential didn't come from the Hawthorne side, but it is what he implied: he said that he was worrying that Jack had a grandfather who was a murderer -- and he did, but it was his other grandfather (i.e., SBK).

But why would Maddie take Mitch's ashes out of the mausoleum niche, anyway? It looked there was room in the special re-lockable niche (I didn't think they came with locks) for the pile of swag and the chest with the ashes, so why take the chance of arousing suspicion by carrying your dead, possibly murderous (but not really) beloved (really not really)'s final remains around under your Chanel-clad arm?

Edited September 9, 2016 by Sandman
Mausoleum niche with a keyed entry? REALLY.

[scarynikki12]

If Morales hadn't been presented as a victim of SBK then the police may have picked up on the donor angle.  The little we know about Morales includes him as an honest man, so I buy him giving money to causes, but he may not have chosen the same ones as the actual SBK victims so that connection, if noticed, would then have been dismissed. 

I think that the reason Alison leaving Tom for Naomi isn't shown to be a big deal is that, compared to the serial killer sister-in-law, corrupt father, mother who murders to save the family reputation, and brother who killed the real SBK, a woman who leaves her husband for her female campaign manager is nothing.

I thought this was a good pair of episodes though I don't expect it to return for a season 2.  We got answers, in a way I found satisfying, and they have a set up in the event that CBS decides to renew with the same cast. 

[atomationage]

Wonderful!  I particularly enjoyed the set designs and backgrounds in these episodes.  I think 13 episodes was probably too many,  and I'm glad there weren't more.   It was a nice summer entertainment.   I grew to like the whole cast, even the weaker actors.  The Hawthornes gelled together as a family.   I agree that there should be a series centered around Jack.   Congrats to all proponents of the Sophie theory. 

[Chaos Theory]

Although more then a satisfying conclusion I do agree that maybe the show could have cut the episodes by a few.  Maybe 10 instead of 13.  There were far too many "It's Garrett!  No it's not Garrett oh wait,   yes it is Garrett."  for me.  Also the show never quite figured out what to do with Tessa.  Other than that fun summer show.  If it does get a second season I will definitely watch.

Edited September 9, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[Dowel Jones]

12 hours ago, ghoulina said:

THESE cops? Nah. Not surprised at all that they missed that. 

Not to mention their inability to find Sophie after only a few minutes escape time.  No helicopter available?  No extra people to scour the neighborhood?  Pity.

9 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I wonder how the voters of Boston feel about the bait and switch

And also the fact that Allison made a secret, illegal deal with the union officials to unfairly swing arbitration in their favor.   But, after the meeting was broken up, it wouldn't be so secret anymore.

Then there's the puzzle of how Sophia manages to knock Cam down and pin him to the ground, with Cam all the while mumbling "Hey, what's going on?  Where did this big huge body on the floor (that I should have seen beforehand) come from?"

Edited September 9, 2016 by Dowel Jones

[scarynikki12]

Sophie caught him off guard and quickly injected him with some kind of tranquilizer.  I've been telling myself that his long term heroin addiction helped him get over the effects super fast.

[Cardie]

1 hour ago, Sandman said:

This is what I meant, too: we're not considering all rich people who are donors to various charities in general, or even the subset of all rich people who are hospital donors; there's a much smaller list of significant donors to that particular hospital, at least five of whom (six, actually, but the police don't know that about the Hawthornes) who are also on the list of SBK's victims

The police only knew to look at hospitals when the titanium rod in SBK's leg was discovered after Garrett unearthed him. And they only knew to check out that hospital when they identified SBK as Martin. This all happened during the finale. For those other 14 years, even if they decided to correlate charitable donations, they wouldn't have keyed in on hospitals. Morales's absence from the list of hospital donors (and the Hawthornes' absence from the victim list) would have made donations by the other five to that hospital look less like a significant correlation. And even if that did ping, their connection to the Martin case is so tangential that there would be no way to find SBK and daughter among the thousands of patients treated there.

[Sandman]

14 minutes ago, Cardie said:

Morales's absence from the list of hospital donors (and the Hawthornes' absence from the victim list) would have made donations by the other five to that hospital look less like a significant correlation.

No doubt. 

[sugarbaker design]

15 hours ago, augmentedfourth said:

16 hours ago, blackwing said:

Also, I missed the "Madame X" scene in the episode.  Where was it?  

I think, but I'm not positive, that the Madame X scene was when Naomi came back to Alison's office at night. I'd forgotten to look up the painting ahead of time (and it's not one I was familiar with off the top of my head), and I remember thinking at the moment that Naomi was standing kind of strangely. Then when I look, it kind of matched the pose, and I think she was wearing black.

There were at least two allusions to the Madame X painting.  The first was when Cam went back to the loft to get something, Sophie appeared from a door and turned and posed, if only for a millisecond, just like the woman in the painting.  Sophie was also wearing a black sleeveless top, from the waist up she looked exactly like the painting.  And the second is the aforementioned final scene with Naomi.

Edited September 9, 2016 by sugarbaker design

[MaggieG]

Well I thought that was a good ending. I actually fell for the "Naomi is the killer" red herring. I knew here on the boards the main suspects were Tom and Sophie, but I don't think Naomi was ever suspected.

Cam riding poor Russo down the stairs was the greatest scene in the entire run of this show. Speaking of Russo, he was a pretty big guy, how the heck did Sophie get the drop on him?

The babies they had in the last scene were so adorable!

[Guest]

1 hour ago, sugarbaker design said:

There were at least two allusions to the Madame X painting.  The first was when Cam went back to the loft to get something, Sophie appeared from a door and turned and posed, if only for a millisecond, just like the woman in the painting.  Sophie was also wearing a black sleeveless top, from the waist up she looked exactly like the painting.  And the second is the aforementioned final scene with Naomi.

I rewatched both those scenes and honestly I didn't think either looked much like the painting.  Both women had on black v-necks, and Sophie did turn her head to the left, but otherwise nothing looked like the painting to me, not like some of the past ones where you immediately saw it and realized it.  

Was the Whistler's Mother scene supposed to be Maddie dead in the chair?  That was another loose one, I think.  

I think the explanation for why they placed silver bells by them was pretty lame, too.  Maybe if it was some long, slow death where they were left alone gagged and a bell was just out of reach.  But when you're being strangled with a belt, I doubt that teeny bell with it's quiet little tinkle was something the victims really could've used to get help.  

The whole motivation of a woman dying in a car accident causing her family to go serial killer was weak, too.  Sophie said "by the time they knew (she had septic shock) it was too late".  So they could've gotten their revenge the legal way-- sue that hospital for millions.  

I think the story would've been stronger, too, if the death scenes actually were artfully arranged (again, see Hannibal) but I think they had to keep it something Maddie could easily copy.  

But overall it was fun and not quite as insultingly dumb as most of the shows in this genre.  

[blackwing]

25 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think the explanation for why they placed silver bells by them was pretty lame, too.  Maybe if it was some long, slow death where they were left alone gagged and a bell was just out of reach.  But when you're being strangled with a belt, I doubt that teeny bell with it's quiet little tinkle was something the victims really could've used to get help.  

The whole motivation of a woman dying in a car accident causing her family to go serial killer was weak, too.  Sophie said "by the time they knew (she had septic shock) it was too late".  So they could've gotten their revenge the legal way-- sue that hospital for millions.  

I thought the bells were mostly symbolic.  The people were dead, there wasn't any way for them to get help, and the bell was placed there after death.  It was just the symbolism... you come upon the dead body of this rich person used to having servants appear instantly at the ring of a bell, and there's the bell, unable to be used.

I also agree that I didn't understand why Sophie's dad didn't just sue the hospital.  The hospital could have helped her but didn't, because they focused their attention on the rich, they could have saved her if they had given her treatment.  Sue them for millions.  It won't bring her back, but it would make her daughter's life a lot more comfortable.

Alison told Sophie on the dock that she wanted her to kill Madeline, because Madeline was a liability to her political career.  Yes, Madeline murdered David Morales and Jennifer Windham, but nobody outside of the family knew that.  I suppose Alison believed that the revelation that her mother was a killer would be damaging.  Was she or Garrett going to tell the police?  But the police also knew Sophie was a killer and that revelation would definitely come out on the news.  I guess I don't see how having a mother who is a killer is any less politically damaging than having a sister-in-law who is a killer.  They aren't blood related, but it still reflects badly.  Alison had her panties in a wad over the possible revelation that Cam broke into a clinic and is still an addict, so it seems she is sensitive to any negative familial connection.  Cam letting a killer into the family is worse than Cam breaking into a clinic.

Also, are the Morales and Windham murders ever going to be attributed to Madeline, or would the family just let the public believe that SBK killed Morales and Sophie killed Jennifer?  If it ever comes out that Madeline did it, wouldn't that be just as politically damaging as when the public thought Mitchell or Garrett was the killer?  Does Alison just think that Sophie would remain silent forever about Madeline?  Or are we supposed to assume that Alison somehow found and killed Sophie?

In the end, it is ironic that Alison despised her mother for her actions, but ended up being just like her.  I know this family won't be back for a hypothetical season 2, but in my season 2, Alison gets killed in the first five minutes.  We spend the season trying to figure out who did it.  Jack?  Garrett?  Naomi?  Tom?  Conley?  Would be a good mystery.  Everyone hated her.  Then we find out it was a Murder on the Orient Express situation and they all did it.

[izabella]

46 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

The whole motivation of a woman dying in a car accident causing her family to go serial killer was weak, too.  Sophie said "by the time they knew (she had septic shock) it was too late".  So they could've gotten their revenge the legal way-- sue that hospital for millions.  

Yes, this.  I enjoyed the show, but this explanation of a normal, non-serial killer dad and his daughter suddenly becoming serial killers does not wash no matter what.  People who are not mentally ill do not instantly become psychopaths able to kill multiple human beings over years.

I can overlook that, though, and enjoy the show for what it was.  I also enjoyed all the speculation and discussion and wtf? in this forum, which made the show much better!

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I thought the bells were mostly symbolic.  The people were dead, there wasn't any way for them to get help, and the bell was placed there after death.  It was just the symbolism... you come upon the dead body of this rich person used to having servants appear instantly at the ring of a bell, and there's the bell, unable to be used.

The way Sophie explained the bell to Maddie was that here was 'the one thing that could help you but it's just out of reach, just like it was for us'.  I don't see a bell as one thing that could help the SBK victims, though I also don't see Sophie's family as having some simple solution 'just out of reach'.  You want a second opinion, take her to another hospital or bring in another doctor.  

I agree about Alison killing her mother being kind of odd, too, especially the timing.  She was elected already, so Maddie wasn't going to blow her chances.  The public finding out their mayor had her mother killed is more damaging than finding out the mayor's mother killed some people, which they still can.  Plus the public already elected her thinking her father was SBK.  And if Sophie's running around alive out there, she now owns the mayor of Boston.   

It was silly for Alison to miss a scheduled interview on election day.  She's supposed to me Miss Details but she couldn't cancel the interview or charge her phone during the night?  I guess her kids were with their father, who also needs no update like, "Hey, I'll be out all night working."  

[sjohnson]

The film of SBK was taken as a deposition in his lawsuit against the hospital/doctors for his wife's death. Why the suit failed wasn't explained at all, if I remember correctly.

[iMonrey]

Quote

The fact that the list is out in plain sight was what gave the killers their inspiration, but the police seem to have taken no notice of it –

Forget about the police, what about people who worked at the hospital? What about patients? Visitors? Serial killers are Big News. At some point, someone should have looked at that big donor wall and noticed the names that kept popping up on the 6:00 News every time SBK struck again were all on that wall. Never mind that Morales wasn't on the wall - he was the last of (? number of) victims. Someone would have noticed all the killer's victims were on that wall before then. We're not talking about some document or file tucked away in a drawer or hard drive somewhere, we're talking about a huge plaque/monument out in plain sight in a public place. The idea that nobody noticed is absurd.

Quote

 I guess I don't see how having a mother who is a killer is any less politically damaging than having a sister-in-law who is a killer. 

After her campaign was nearly derailed by the revelation that her father was a serial killer, I find it hard to believe she would risk everything by relying on a heroin addict to pull this off. Even if we suppose she planned to off Sophie as soon as Sophie took care of Madeline, she's still banking on Sophie being able to pull this off without getting caught. That's enormously risky.

And, if she's willing to go that far to secure her reign as mayor, I don't buy for a second she wouldn't have used that incriminating tape of her opponent paying off a police officer to hide evidence of a crime.

Edited September 9, 2016 by iMonrey

[scarynikki12]

Serial killers always have motivations but they only make sense to them not us. Bundy went after young white women with long brown hair who looked like his ex. Dahmer ate his victims. It made sense to them but not us. TV and movies like to give serial killers motivations that the viewers can relate to but that runs the risk of woobification (especially if the killer is a lead). I'm fine with Sophie and her father targeting hospital donors rather than going to the media or pursuing a criminal case since it made sense to them. 

My thing is that we got no indication that either of them had serial killer tendencies before the mom died. Serials are remarkably consistent in their early behavior yet there was nothing about childhood torture of animals, bed wetting beyond the typical age range or general behavior concerns. You know, like we've seen from Jack this whole time. They gave Sophie the villain monologue and had the cops learn a few things about her dad yet brought up nothing regarding questionable behavior. The closest was Sophie saying that her mother's death broke them but that's not how serials are. From everything that I've read serial killers fit a specific criteria that differentiates them from the people who do snap and go on killing sprees. If there was a realization that SBK had been a spree falsely classified as a serial then that would work (especially since Sophie was able to stop killing) but they pushed the serial killer angle right to the end and that's what fell flat for me. 

[izabella]

52 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Forget about the police, what about people who worked at the hospital? What about patients? Visitors? Serial killers are Big News. At some point, someone should have looked at that big donor wall and noticed the names that kept popping up on the 6:00 News every time SBK struck again were all on that wall. Never mind that Morales wasn't on the wall - he was the last of (? number of) victims. Someone would have noticed all the killer's victims were on that wall before then. We're not talking about some document or file tucked away in a drawer or hard drive somewhere, we're talking about a huge plaque/monument out in plain sight in a public place. The idea that nobody noticed is absurd.

I 1000x agree with this.  Even if not one other single person at that hospital noticed, there is SOMEBODY there that is responsible for the "care and feeding" of their doners, big and small.  In fact, there is probably a TEAM of people whose job it is to solicit donations, and manage the doners and their donations.  That team is who created that plaque, ffs.  THEY would immediately notice if their biggest doners were suddenly being killed by SBK, one by one.

[blackwing]

If Sophie truly was a serial killer, why did she wait 14 years to take her revenge?  Her father blamed the hospital for the death of his wife, and he took it out on the rich donors who supported the hospital.  He went to kill Mitchell Hawthorne, but failed.  Sophie knew something happened to him.  She said it herself during her monologue... "he went in and never came out".  I think she even said that she became an orphan.  So she must have known that the Hawthornes were responsible for her father's death.  Why wait so many years before exacting revenge?

If she was truly a serial killer, she would have killed everyone in the family, and would have picked them off one by one.  Why wouldn't she have killed Madeline much earlier than she did?  She had plenty of opportunity and access.  She was distraught over losing Jack and losing Cam.  If she was truly a serial killer, she would have killed Cam's nurse girlfriend first.  Why the dollhouse?  Why bother?  She tipped herself off by not creating a doll of Jack, and Jack himself commented he was disappointed that there was no doll of him.  Because Sophie would never bring herself to suggest death of her son.  I guess the only explanation for why she waited until episode 13 to kill Madeline is that this is a TV show and they needed to fill 13 episodes.

Somebody help me on the ages.... the last Silver Bells murder was the Morales murder, and that happened 14 years ago.  We see a teenage Cam talking to his therapist on video about the body.  Teenage Cam looked to be about 15.  Teenage Sophie looked to be about 15.   So present day Cam and Sophie are supposed to be 29?  With a 10 year old son?  I guess it's possible.  Garrett is 38 and Tessa is 27 and Alison and Cam are somewhere in between.  Also, the flashback scene when Garrett returned and spied on the family in some kind of outdoor get together.  Alison is pregnant.  Her twins are now 5 so the flashback scene must have been at most 6 years ago.  Was Jack in this scene?  I thought Cam was alone at the party and talking about his girlfriend Sophie.  Wouldn't he have been married with a 4 year old son at this point?

[MaggieG]

36 minutes ago, blackwing said:

If Sophie truly was a serial killer, why did she wait 14 years to take her revenge?  Her father blamed the hospital for the death of his wife, and he took it out on the rich donors who supported the hospital.  He went to kill Mitchell Hawthorne, but failed.  Sophie knew something happened to him.  She said it herself during her monologue... "he went in and never came out".  I think she even said that she became an orphan.  So she must have known that the Hawthornes were responsible for her father's death.  Why wait so many years before exacting revenge?

If she was truly a serial killer, she would have killed everyone in the family, and would have picked them off one by one.  Why wouldn't she have killed Madeline much earlier than she did?  She had plenty of opportunity and access.  She was distraught over losing Jack and losing Cam.  If she was truly a serial killer, she would have killed Cam's nurse girlfriend first.  Why the dollhouse?  Why bother?  She tipped herself off by not creating a doll of Jack, and Jack himself commented he was disappointed that there was no doll of him.  Because Sophie would never bring herself to suggest death of her son.  I guess the only explanation for why she waited until episode 13 to kill Madeline is that this is a TV show and they needed to fill 13 episodes.

Somebody help me on the ages.... the last Silver Bells murder was the Morales murder, and that happened 14 years ago.  We see a teenage Cam talking to his therapist on video about the body.  Teenage Cam looked to be about 15.  Teenage Sophie looked to be about 15.   So present day Cam and Sophie are supposed to be 29?  With a 10 year old son?  I guess it's possible.  Garrett is 38 and Tessa is 27 and Alison and Cam are somewhere in between.  Also, the flashback scene when Garrett returned and spied on the family in some kind of outdoor get together.  Alison is pregnant.  Her twins are now 5 so the flashback scene must have been at most 6 years ago.  Was Jack in this scene?  I thought Cam was alone at the party and talking about his girlfriend Sophie.  Wouldn't he have been married with a 4 year old son at this point?

I believe Sophie mentioned that she was following Cam around to get close to the family but then she actually did fall in love with him. She said something like "we had this amazing, unique child". I don't think she ever wanted to hurt Cam or Jack. Just his family

In the flashback with Garrett watching I believe Tessa is sitting with a young Jack on her lap.

[Cardie]

The cabin in the woods flashback was dated onscreen as 2010. Allison is pregnant and Jack is a toddler. Cam is reminiscing about how Sophie snared him in art school; they are obviously together at this time, probably married. Cam could well be 16 or 17 in 2002, just not in college; he and Sophie have Jack in their early 20s. I always assumed that the Hawthorne kids were 38, 36, 32 and 27 in 2016.

I believe Allison had Maddie killed because of three factors. She seemed generally horrified that Maddie had killed innocent people, and several of them. If she couldn't get the law to deal with her mom, then she'd go private, as is the Hawthorne way. Even if she also killed Sophie, she would justify it by Sophie being a killer of innocents also. Second, she saw how her mom had always blackmailed the kids, including Allison, to do what she wanted and was sick of it. Third, she could never tell when Maddie might kill again and there was always the risk of her being caught, so better to just tidy up things.

Looking at the family tableau at the end, I could see that Allison had all the bases covered to run for governor in eight years: Brahmin family that has married a working-class nurse, a Latino doctor, a black cop and an Asian lesbian. (Past and future serial killers in the bloodline? Nothing to see here.)

[sjohnson]

I don't live in Boston, and I'm the only one I know who actually reads donor plaques. Seriously, it really doesn't seem like too many people are actually looking at those things. As for the people who made them, they're likely enough to be a plaque/trophy making shop. I don't think the plotting in this show is super tight but it's tight enough for what is basically a black comedy. 

As to serial killer psychology? John Martin, SBK, really was more of a political assassin/urban guerrilla/terrorist type. In this vein suicide bombers do seem (as I understand it,) to suffer from depression. But violent behavior and psychopathy are not characteristic of most militants. If anything, they are more typical of normal politicians, who tend to be the kind of people who could brag about making out kill lists. Shameless lying and stealing and sheer delight in manipulating people and being the center of attention can also be part of psychopathy.

[Guest]

Brady said Dara was in her early 30s.  

[Chaos Theory]

I thought the bell made complete sense when Sophie explained it to Maddie.  You can't over think these things or over think word structure when it comes to people's motivation.  Bells were used for a long time to call for servants by rich people and it made perfect sense to use it as symbolism by putting it just out of reach of bodies freshly murdered.  

As for why no one thought of the hospital....honestly part of me hand waves it and another wonders how many people know who the top five donars are at the local hospital?  Even if people start getting murdered how many people would really put that together?  

Edited September 10, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[Auntie Anxiety]

Well, I am grateful to this show for reminding me why I shouldn't watch anything that network television offers (other than sports). What a waste of time. The first couple of episodes fooled me into thinking it might be interesting. I've learned my lesson. 

[Jordan61]

1 hour ago, Auntie Anxiety said:

Well, I am grateful to this show for reminding me why I shouldn't watch anything that network television offers (other than sports). What a waste of time. The first couple of episodes fooled me into thinking it might be interesting. I've learned my lesson. 

This! It seems most people enjoyed the ending and the series overall, but personally I am annoyed at myself for wasting 13 hours of my life on this crap.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I thought the bell made complete sense when Sophie explained it to Maddie.  You can't over think these things or over think word structure when it comes to people's motivation.  Bells were used for a long time to call for servants by rich people and it made perfect sense to use it as symbolism by putting it just out of reach of bodies freshly murdered.  

As for why no one thought of the hospital....honestly part of me hand waves it and another wonders how many people know who the top five donars are at the local hospital?  Even if people start getting murdered how many people would really put that together?  

I don't think hand bells have been used for centuries to call servants.  I didn't really like the overall portrayal of these working rich, though.  They did kind of portray them as royalty when it suited them-- that palatial estate, the $1M hospital donation, Maddie and even Brady paying out bribes like it's petty cash.  But also average joes when needed... almost no security, paper books, outside accountants, stealing from employees.  If Mitch was the gazillionaire they made him out to be, he would've had Sophie investigated before marrying his son.  

I can see feeling robbed of 13 hours.  I agree that overall it wasn't great.  But for me the humor and the visuals and making fun of the show made it worth it.  I didn't have much to watch this summer so the hurdle was low.  

[Enigma X]

For me, the first two episodes set the tone that this was going to be more campy than serious. Moreover, it seemed that was by design and not accident. I also think that most of the reveals did not seem forced, and the viewers had real clues to most of the reveals before they were revealed. Lastly, I am a sucker for happyish endings. I thoroughly enjoyed 90% of the time that I spent watching this show.

Edited September 10, 2016 by Enigma X

[atomationage]

32 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I don't think hand bells have been used for centuries to call servants.

They were still used in the 1970s in my experience.  I don't know after that.  Some people collect bells.   I thought the series was worth watching, and I hope they get another season.  They left often that possibility with Jack wondering when his mom would return at the end.  

[Sandman]

23 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

Serial killers always have motivations but they only make sense to them not us. Bundy went after young white women with long brown hair who looked like his ex. Dahmer ate his victims. It made sense to them but not us. 

This is true in life, of course, but can be unsatisfying in art. We look for meaning in fiction, for reasons underlying characters' behaviour. Especially in the mystery genre -- though it isn't always offered. I don't think the style of this mystery is the kind where there is no explanation, or where the universe is discovered to be completely random and meaningless. I think the risk of woobification is less than the risk of a result that's incomplete or lazy. (Personally, I find the trend to woobification is an error of taste that writers ought to work against; it is possible to create an anti-hero without resorting to cheap, irresponsible sentimentality or infantilization. [/soapbox]

[Guest]

1 hour ago, atomationage said:

They were still used in the 1970s in my experience.  I don't know after that.  Some people collect bells.   I thought the series was worth watching, and I hope they get another season.  They left often that possibility with Jack wondering when his mom would return at the end.  

Really?  Summoning with bells just seems so Downton Abbey to me.  Though in an early thread I was trying to guess what the bells could symbolize and all I could come up with was Christmas or summoning servants.  

I don't know if I'd be interested in a season 2 of Sophie as a killer.  I would prefer an all new mystery with a new cast and characters and story.  

[ghoulina]

I would have preferred a silver SPOON instead of a bell.

[Guest]

How about a blue blanket?  Sophie could've done something artistic with that.  

[thuganomics85]

Finally caught up!  All things considering, a decent enough of a finale, that wrapped most of the stuff up and most everything came together in a somewhat believable way (granted, that is being extremely generous.)

So, yeah, there were more all the deaths then meet the eye.  First, the true accomplice ended up being Sophie, whose dad was the SBK and the reason for the original murders was because her mom/his wife died in the hospital, because the doctors were too busy focusing on richer patients then her.  So, they decided to take out all the families who donated to the hospital.  After Daddy SBK died, Sophie used to Cam to get in and finish the job, but then fell in love with him and had Jack instead.  A bit too silly, but whatever, I was glad to see Stephanie Leonidas finally get to do more then whine about Jack or acted high.  I did have her in my sights, because out of everyone, she was the only one who I can see being so artistic.

But it turns out that Jennifer was actually offed by Maddie herself, who was keeping those bells around incase she ever needed to stage another killing, which she did to get Garrett out of the slammer.  And she still thinks she is in the right.  Maddie is scary.  Virginia Madsen is amazing. 

In the end, Maddie gets taken out by Sophie, only for something that I honestly didn't see coming happening: Alison figures out Sophie's true identity, but strikes a deal with her to off Maddie and leave the rest of them alone, because Alison is freaked out after finding out all the shit Maddie as done, and probably knows having a serial killer mother would suck as a mayor.  Whew!  Crazy!  And yet it makes more sense then it had any right to be.

Naomi ended up just being a red herring, who actually helped Alison win the mayoral race.  And they are now together.  I'm guessing she just divorced Tom or he fell off the face of the planet.  Or maybe Alison told Sophie to pay him a visit!

Cam got to be MVP of these episodes by sliding down the staircase on top of a unconscious/dead(?) body like a boss and getting to make out with Bethany Joy Lenz!

Garrett moves to San Francisco with Christina, because they are making a go of it despite the whole "My mom and dad killed your dad and I hid the truth.  Oh, and there was the time you stabbed me!" thing.  I guess all relationships have their ups and downs!

Brady and Tess have their baby.  Yay?  Oh, and Brady forgives Cutter for the only "being align with Conely" thing.

Overall, a few dragging episodes that brought the show down (especially the red herring stuff with Garrett, since it was obvious it would never be him), but a fun enough summer diversion.  They probably shouldn't try to bring it that though.

[theatremouse]

On 9/8/2016 at 1:55 PM, blackwing said:

On the contrary, I assumed that Alison somehow found Sophie and killed her.  Alison had this really smug look on her face.  Sophie is the only one who could tie Alison to the death of Madeline, so I figured that Alison killed Sophie somehow.  The way Jack played the teddy bear recording over and over, with that angry look on his face, made it seem like to me that Sophie's never coming back.

One of the things I enjoyed most about the finale was that it was ambiguous as to whether Alison's monologue at the end meant she also had killed Sophie. The way she said she thought "her mother would have been proud" definitely gave me the vibe that she might have killed Sophie, plus Jack's "when" made me think it was a distinct possibility, but I also think it was intentionally ambiguous.

On 9/8/2016 at 5:45 PM, Sandman said:

This is what I meant, too: we're not considering all rich people who are donors to various charities in general, or even the subset of all rich people who are hospital donors; there's a much smaller list of significant donors to that particular hospital, at least five of whom (six, actually, but the police don't know that about the Hawthornes) who are also on the list of SBK's victims. The fact that the list is out in plain sight was what gave the killers their inspiration, but the police seem to have taken no notice of it -- even though the overlap isn't quite as strong as I thought, since I forgot that Morales wasn't actually an SBK victim (but the police don't know that, either).

The problem with this is you're not acknowledging that a certain level of rich people are donors to various charities in general, but more specifically local nonprofits in general, and thus the subset you're talking about is very likely to have been donors to many of the same organizations, not just one. I don't live in Boston, but in the major metropolitan area where I live, if I look at the donor wall of the only two hospitals I've ever been in locally, the Symphony, the major regional theater, the Opera, and the zoo, easily half the names in the list are in the list for all of those organizations. So to have even five of the six victims all be donors to the same hospital is not necessarily notable if they're also all major donors to half a dozen other nonprofits in town. If anything that reinforces the "most visible rich people" angle. It's completely believable to me that even if they knew these people had the hospital donor list in common that would not necessarily be conclusive enough for them to jump to "it's something to do with that hospital".

The cops on this show are well established as completely incompetent for many reasons, but I found their not making the hospital connection until the titanium rod came up totally reasonable. The part of that plot that got me was more so that I thought that sort of thing always had a serial number (or so TV has led me to believe). So I was surprised they didn't identify SBK by the thing in his leg directly, without Garret's fun-with-photos.

On 9/9/2016 at 9:02 AM, Winston9-DT3 said:

I agree about Alison killing her mother being kind of odd, too, especially the timing.  She was elected already, so Maddie wasn't going to blow her chances. 

Her meeting with Sophie about that was a day or two before the election, so she was not elected yet. Sophie was killing Maddie while they were getting election results, so I think it stands to reason Alison saw her mother as threat to her family overall, since her mother was so willing to kill, even her own husband. Her mother's threat was not just to the campaign but to potentially to Alison herself, or her siblings, or potentially her children given Maddie's definition of "protecting the family". In a way, I could see Alison's choice to off Maddie as a sort of (in her head) self-defense. It was not just about political liability. Her mother might have killed her if she deemed it necessary. Or so was Alison's reasoning, I think.

[tennisgurl]

All things considered, this was a pretty solid ending am kind of impressed that they managed to tie everything together, even if there were definitely...issues. 

As soon as they said it was a woman, I knew it was Sophie. In retrospect, its actually really obvious, but I never got fully on board to her being the accomplish, but it totally makes sense. Shes even the one suspect with an artistic side, besides Cam. Plus, it helps explain her weird "Jack is not AT ALL a future serial killer, he is just special!" reactions to the creepiness of Jack. Of course she does not see anything wrong with him, she wants to raise the next generation of killers. 

While she might not have literally raised her kids to be serial killers, Maddie is probably the true villain of this show. I mean, so is SBK and SBK Jr., but Maddie is not much better. At least they were both either off their nuts, or were getting what they considered revenge. Maddie killed people in her mad dash for power, and to protect the family name, all the while justifying her cold blooded killing as being "for her family". I have to say, a part of me wanted Maddie to get hers, and the other half of me wanted her to win everything, Bad Bitch that she is. Like, good God lady! I swear, I half expected Madie to be like "Yes, I killed the reporter! And your father! Oh, and I also killed JFK, caused the Hindenburg disaster, and stabbed Julius Cesar, and framed Brutus for it. For the family!". Virginia Madsen is awesome. 

Maddie might be a evil murder matriarch, but she was totally right to get rid of that stupid cop. I changed my mind. The real villains here are Boston PD, the most incompetent group of cops in any major city on the entire planet. Its a miracle that they even managed to get close to Sophie. You know, Bad Accent Cop was right. Brady was too close to the case to see it was Sophie, a woman he has known for years. Because HE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ON THIS CASE! It makes zero sense that they would allow a cop to investigate his own family, it just baffles the mind. 

So Alison ends up with Naomi? Tom just drops off the face of the planet I guess. I would be careful, Naomi. As much as Alison would hate to admit it, she is clearly her mothers daughter. 

This was all pretty campy and ridiculous, but I also enjoyed a lot of it. A fun summer ride, and I can enjoy that, before I get into the real meat of Fall TV. 

Edited September 12, 2016 by tennisgurl

[Chaos Theory]

I am extremely eclectic when it comes to my tv shows.  Not every show needs to be award worthy, gritty, or mind blowing.  Sometimes I enjoy it simply because it was fun. Of course there were thing that annoyed me. <cough Brady cough> but for the most part I simply enjoyed sitting back and enjoying the crazy.  I honestly found it refreshing how female heavy and female as bad guys this was.  The women weren't relegated to poor damsels who needed to be rescued by their big awesome husband.  Hell for the most part if the men stepped aside shit might have been solved by episode 5.  

I liked that both Madeline and Alison were legit badasses.  I liked that there was more to Sophie then being the junkie ex that Cam would eventually leave for the more solid good girl.   I even liked that Jacks brand of crazy was explained.

Was the show perfect?  Not by a long shot.  Was the show fun?  Hell yes.

Edited September 12, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[iMonrey]

Quote

I don't think the plotting in this show is super tight but it's tight enough for what is basically a black comedy. 

I'm glad you found something about it to enjoy, but unfortunately I don't think this particular series was intended to be a "black comedy." There were moments of humor here and there, such as the cop saying he was rooting for the doll-maker, but any humor found in the overall plot was likely unintentional. 

(Conversely, if this show was meant to be a "black comedy," then it failed in execution, as it was neither billed as such nor perceived as such by critics and reviewers.)

I still find it interesting that it debuted on the heels of ABC's "The Family," which was similar in format and mood but likewise failed to win over a lot of viewers. For my money, I still consider "The Family" the superior show of the two. It had better pacing, was more engaging, and didn't feel like it kept going in circles like American Gothic did. If AG gets renewed after The Family was cancelled, I'll consider that a shame.

Edited September 12, 2016 by iMonrey

[atomationage]

57 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

. For my money, I still consider "The Family" the superior show of the two. It had better pacing, was more engaging, and didn't feel like it kept going in circles like American Gothic did. If AG gets renewed after The Family was cancelled, I'll consider that a shame.

The Family also had a much better cast, who might also be difficult to get to recommit to another series, at least Joan Allen and Rupert Graves anyway.   They also criminally underused Zach Gilford. 

[Chaos Theory]

11 minutes ago, atomationage said:

The Family also had a much better cast, who might also be difficult to get to recommit to another series, at least Joan Allen and Rupert Graves anyway.   They also criminally underused Zach Gilford. 

I have had a girlcrush on Virginia Madsen ever since she was the female lead on Candyman.  Joan Allen does nothing for me.

[Cardie]

The Family was a suspense thriller, not a murder mystery. Although there were secrets we learned along the way, and certain similarities between the two families, it was not a classic whodunit. I thought The Family was less absurd but also less involving. Still, I stuck with it and American Gothic and think that comparisons are sort of apples and oranges. This show's ratings are pathetic, so you don't need to worry it will get renewed.

[CelticBlackCat]

Virginia Madsen = Amazing & Awesome!!  She rocked the hell out of her character.  I've always liked her and she's the reason I watched Epi 2 and stayed with this summer fling.

I still think Sophie escaped, Maddie's passport would be useless unless she can use it for a forgery (I don't know how that works) but that money would come in handy.  She could be biding her time until she looks up Jack again.  Remember, she had a knack for just showing up unexpectantly.

I also feel that TPTB like to portray gay relationships as "no big deal, nothing to see here," but Alison's disappearing husband and her cozy two moms family probably wouldn't fly in real life in Boston.  Maybe San Francisco, but not Boston.  She ran on the respectable married mother of twins platform.  Hope she keeps Boston's potholes filled!  (I'm in San Diego so that would explain my sense of humor there.)

On Sidereel, it says that American Gothic is on Hiatus, so they may have a whole new story, cast and crew next summer.  But in my wishful continuation, Madeline didn't die, the body they rolled out of the house was Russo, not Maddie, Sophie comes back for Jack, and Caramel leads a happy life with next-door neighbor Phyllis.  Alison finds out something about Naomi and gets rid of her and reunites with Tom, because after all, he did buy the Hawthorne's cement company.  Cam stays rehabbed and becomes the nation's most prestigious cartoonist and Garrett takes off for the Grizzly Adams lifestyle with Christina and Baby.  Tessa and Brady/Brody...Ugh.

[Guest]

From both shows, I'd pick Madsen, Gilford, Rylance, McCarthy, both little boys, Colantoni and Sheridan.  I'd throw back both shows' lady cops, Ketch, Chatwin, Starr, Pill, and Allen.  

The two shows felt very similar to me.  Intentional and unintentional humor, weak writing, wealthy people with heavy secrets, cover-ups, political races, gay sibling affairs, substance abuse, overbearing parents, creepy little boys, red herrings, twisty ending and a 12-13 episode run.  

[atomationage]

I have to give Deirdre Lovejoy (lady cop in AG) credit for being in 60 episodes of The Wire.  She did better with Simon, Burns and Pellecanos' writing.   I eventually liked the whole cast here.   These summer murder/mystery shows come and go.  There will be different ones next year.  I enjoyed this one in  spite of its flaws.

[Guest]

I think Lovejoy handled the humorous parts exceptionally well.  Watch her in that scene where they discover her misdeeds.  It was the Boston accent and the serious parts where she grated on me.  

I kind of wonder if they planned for some entire characters to have a more humorous edge and it didn't gel that well with the serious writing in parts.  You had Brady acting serious throughout practically, against Lovejoy sounding like an SNL skit about a hardboiled Boston lady cop.  Colantoni's mayor Conley was pretty humorous throughout, same for Mrs. Caramel.  Maybe Starr's flat affect was supposed to be humorous?  Maybe Ketch and Chatwin weren't acting badly so much as trying to just be funny with the dramatic material, like intentionally overacting?   

[iMonrey]

Quote

The Family was a suspense thriller, not a murder mystery. Although there were secrets we learned along the way, and certain similarities between the two families, it was not a classic whodunit. I thought The Family was less absurd but also less involving. Still, I stuck with it and American Gothic and think that comparisons are sort of apples and oranges. 

Actually I find the similarities between the two shows almost startling. Both are about wealthy, prominent families simultaneously embroiled in mysteries and political campaigns, both take place in New England, both had grown sons with substance abuse problems and grown daughters who were lesbian/bisexual, both had blond, strong-willed matriarchs with somewhat emasculated husbands, both stories had creepy little male kids. It's almost as if the two stories were conceived as one original idea, and two different writers took them to two different networks and ran in different directions with them.

Quote

This show's ratings are pathetic, so you don't need to worry it will get renewed.

Yes - the producers/writers are talking up a second season, but this show pulled a 0.4 in the all-important 18-49 demographic, so I'd say it's chances of renewal are pretty damn slim.