Hollywood History: The Real-Life "Feud" and More

[LilWharveyGal]

This probably sounds silly, but I'd like to see something on Clara Bow just to see her famous red hair in glorious technicolor.  When watching her films, I never seem to remember that she wasn't a brunette.

[MsTree]

If we're talking real life feuds (not necessarily 'hate'), I think Martin & Lewis fall into this category.

[Growsonwalls]

How about Joan Rivers and Johnny Carson? Now that was a feud. A lot of material to mine there.

Martins and Lewis is also a great idea. 

And this isn't related to the movies but Isaiah Thomas and Michael Jordan had one of the longest-running feuds in sports history. AFAIK they still hate each other, but Thomas has said he has made up with Magic Johnson.

Edited April 13, 2017 by Growsonwalls

[NutMeg]

Old Hollywood is a treasure trove for screenwriters, because there was so much swept under the carpets that even fans there or now know nothing about. I wish someone decided to explore that era, warts and all.

(just finished reading a Tom and Lorenzo post on Feud, and they also hope for the same. Let's hope someone hears that there is a demand)  

[tennisgurl]

I would LOVE a full on, Mad Men style prestige cable drama about the history of Hollywood that Tom and Lorenzo mentioned wanting to see. Maybe start with the early days of silent film and go all the way into the post Studio System/post Hays Code years in the late 60s. There are just so many stories (look how many were mentioned just in this thread) and fascinating people that have been forgotten or hushed up over the years, it would be amazing to see someone really put effort into telling those stories. Feud is hampered by the nature of the "feud" dynamic being necessary for the season. Maybe someone else will take a crack at a full on Tinsel Town story?

[TigerLynx]

A drama about the history of Hollywood would be great.  If they did it right, they could get years worth of drama out of the silent era stars (Clara Bow, Gloria Swanson, Mary Pickford, Douglas Fairbanks, Charlie Chaplin, Greta Garbo, etc.), some who made the transition to talkies and some who didn't, alone.

[Jan Spears]

If you want a story that actually fits the "feud" theme, I would recommend Buster Keaton and his first-wife Natalie Talmadge (one of the silent film era Talmadges).

[henrysmom]

Quote

If you want a story that actually fits the "feud" theme, I would recommend Buster Keaton and his first-wife Natalie Talmadge (one of the silent film era Talmadges).

Brilliant!  

Actually, if somebody wanted to do an entire series on the scandals and drama that came out of the early days of Hollywood I'd certainly watch it.  Maybe they could do a sister show to Feud called Scandal.  Just the ideas posted here would give them twenty seasons.

[LilWharveyGal]

On 4/7/2017 at 0:22 PM, enoughcats said:

Our Library has the book "George Hurrell's Hollywood" and it is magnificent.  Not just photographs, but the commentary deserves time spent appreciating it.

@enoughcats, I can't thank you enough for mentioning this book.  I just got it from the library on your recommendation, and it is truly stunning.  His camera definitely did love Joan.

The pictures reinforced to me that, unfortunately, I just cannot understand the physical appeal of Jean Harlow.  On the other hand, if I am ever half as captivating as Myrna Loy I'll be a happy woman.

[GreekGeek]

21 hours ago, henrysmom said:

Brilliant!  

Actually, if somebody wanted to do an entire series on the scandals and drama that came out of the early days of Hollywood I'd certainly watch it.  Maybe they could do a sister show to Feud called Scandal.  Just the ideas posted here would give them twenty seasons.

There already is a show called Scandal, but I love the idea. Some of the feuds in this article have already been mentioned, but the Vance and Frawley one might be interesting for a shift of focus from movies to TV. There was lots of drama behind the scenes of I Love Lucy: from the "What shall we do about Lucille Ball's pregnancy?" kerfluffle to the "Lucille Ball is a Communist" controversy to the breakup of the Ball/Arnaz marriage. But Vance and Frawley were interesting characters in their own right, and the only two cast members who disliked each other from the get-go. Check out some pre-ILL pictures of Vance here--very glamorous, sexy, and sophisticated, not at all like dowdy Ethel.

[NutMeg]

It's a treasure trove because so much was hidden back then! From leading men and women who had secrets, whether enforced by the studios, like change of look, for many women, from Rita Hayworth to Marilyn Monroe (weirdly enough, cosmetic procedures back then were much more subtle, natural and effective than what we see now), change of names for most actors and actresses whose name showed the slightest "ethnic" hint (back then, that meant German, Scandinavian, Jewish, etc.), hiding of sexual preferences if they were not mainstream but even if they were but were enacted in way that was seen as shocking to the audience, there are enough previously hidden history amongst stars of yore for a multi-season series.  Now maybe that's not in Ryan Murphy's ballpark, but still it's great that with this series he's reopened a window on the Hollywood of yore, warts and all.  

[enoughcats]

48 minutes ago, NutMeg said:

but still it's great that with this series he's reopened a window on the Hollywood of yore, warts and all.  

At a time when people like me are tired of multiple murders each hour on mainstream TV, the alternative of old movies and their stars are looking much better. 
Ever since I watched a CSI marathon and had three nights worth of nightmares, I've cut back on murder TV.

Then we started working our way through the Japanese cartoons and their charm.  Somehow that lead to silent movies (it may have been the airplanes), and now into other silent movies and their stars.  

Some of the movies are such stretches of the imagination in their story line....but the characters are fairly often well drawn, even if the story lines are stretches.

Just this weekend I was wondering what else Robert Aldrich did.  I had gotten Ulzana's Raid from the library and the thing was just too clean....as in every body looked freshly washed with clothes straight from the dry cleaners.  BUT I got a surprise in seeing that he did The Dirty Dozen between Baby Jane and Ulzanas. 

Once upon a time, the guy I was dating saw The Dirty Dozen.  He loved it.  He loved it so much that we went to see it every time it was at a theater within a hundred miles of our university.  I must have seen it eight times and I grew to like it.  So now it's time to introduce it to my husband, who has never seen it , but who will probably appreciate the characters in it.

See, there's the 'character' word again.  And maybe time to look for some more (to me) obscure Aldrich movies.

[peacheslatour]

Not Hollywood but I would love to see a feud between Stanford White and Harry Kendall Thaw over Evelyn Nesbit. Otherwise known as the case of the girl in the red velvet swing.

[ennui]

5 hours ago, enoughcats said:

Ever since I watched a CSI marathon and had three nights worth of nightmares, I've cut back on murder TV.

I'm glad it's not only me. The CSIs, and I had to quit Criminal Minds as well.

[toodles]

On 4/7/2017 at 5:14 PM, ABay said:

Wiener dogs make everything better.

Late to the party, but I have a chiweenie.   It's a mix of Weiner dog and Mexican hairless.  He was a rescue.  Off topic so I'll stop now.

[enoughcats]

2 hours ago, toodles said:

 

On 4/7/2017 at 6:14 PM, ABay said:

Wiener dogs make everything better.

 

I think the wiener dogs made Joan seem a bit more down to earth that Glamour!!

With her fashion look, with my more modern expectations, I would have expected her to have afghan hounds (three of them) on perfectly spaced leashes.  

Except I looked up afghan hounds and they only appeared in a Spanish Stud book in 1954. 

http://galgoafgano.com/history.html
I like the thought of the short clamouring little legs running to greet her coming home. 

Edited April 16, 2017 by enoughcats
afghans came later

[TexasGal]

Does anyone know what happened with the lawsuit filed against Joan?  Did they drop it after they replaced her, or did she end up having to pay the costs (I think they said $100,000) from her shenanigans?

[hypnotoad]

Quote

I just cannot understand the physical appeal of Jean Harlow.  On the other hand, if I am ever half as captivating as Myrna Loy I'll be a happy woman.

I am with you on the Jean Harlow thing. Do not get it. And she was only in her 20s when she died and to me she looks waaayy older.

I love Myrna Loy too - I catch any movie of hers I can on TCM. My other favorite is Carole Lombard. Sigh.

Quote

but the Vance and Frawley one might be interesting for a shift of focus from movies to TV. There was lots of drama behind the scenes of I Love Lucy: from the "What shall we do about Lucille Ball's pregnancy?" kerfluffle to the "Lucille Ball is a Communist" controversy to the breakup of the Ball/Arnaz marriage.

This would be awesome and a much better idea than the boring Charles/Diana thing. I really wish they would keep the Feuds coverage in Hollywood. As many have mentioned there is a ton of material available.

[caracas1914]

What's interesting is that "Hush, Hush, Sweet Charlotte" while being both a critical/box office hit, even garnishing 7 academy award noms (including Agness Moorhead for supporting actress)  didn't lead to all that much more for Bette Davis.  She starred in a modest thriller "Dead Ringer" in 1965 and that was pretty much  it for starring roles in any major studio production.

She continued working , did some British movies for the rest of that decade, and transitioned to TV for the next few decades but HHSW was pretty much her last hurrah as far as HW stardom.

[newyawk]

Well, Bette did do quite a few more roles in movies after "Charlotte," including "Burnt Offerings," "Death On The Nile," "Return To Witch Mountain" and "The Whales Of August" (which is outstanding, I recommend it highly) as well as a few high profile roles on TV, including in the miniseries "Little Gloria, Happy At Last" and the series "Hotel." She also wrote at least two memoirs. The only thing that really slowed her down was having and then recovering from, a stroke.

Edited April 17, 2017 by newyawk

[enoughcats]

I'm not sure where a discussion of other folks in the cast goes, so here's hoping.

Newyak wrote

Quote

The guy they got to play Victor Buono is perfectly cast.

And I think I agree (having just seen VB in the original.)  VB in the original was almost too over the top, I didn't recognize him at first as VB.  At least he and Agnes Morehead weren't fighting for the center stage. 

But here comes the problem.  I remember Victor Buono from his many appearances on the Johnny Carson Show.  I f'luved VB and when he read his poetry out of his little book (as I remember it), I was simply delighted.  He was one of the Carson guests I made major efforts to watch (and stay awake for).  

VB defined his roll.  It was only slightly redefined Sunday night and that's good for our mental continuity.  

I'm not sure how to measure how well an actor fills a roll, especially a roll that has been worked on by other actors-directors-producers.  

We just watched Rain with Joan Crawford and John Huston.  Miss Sadie Thompson certainly was different after 'code' kicked in.  And Huston was almost scarey in his assuredness.  How do their performances rank versus other versions?  I don't know, and I'm not sure we can retroactively judge them because they were for their time. 

[Florinaldo]

2 hours ago, newyawk said:

Well, Bette did do quite a few more roles in movies after "Charlotte," including "Burnt Offerings," "Death On The Nile," "Return To Witch Mountain" and "The Whales Of August" (which is outstanding, I recommend it highly) as well as a few high profile roles on TV, including in the miniseries "Little Gloria, Happy At Last" and the series "Hotel." She also wrote at least two memoirs. The only thing that really slowed her down was having and then recovering from, a stroke.

That is true; she may have been past the leading roles for the most part, The Nanny (a Hammer film!) and The Anniversary being exceptions, but she did a number of interesting character parts, including in some big productions, although the films are not always up to par. She was also a frequent presence on televison, both in dramas and on talk-shows shows. So her career post-WHTBJ was far from a wasteland.

I also think that the high point was The Whales of August, in which Vincent Price, Lillian Gish and Ann Sothern also have very nice turns. As I already mentioned, she and Gish were at odds on the set, the latter reportedly feigning being unable to hear her co-star's lines but being perfectly able to make them out when the director repeated them.

1 hour ago, enoughcats said:

 I remember Victor Buono from his many appearances on the Johnny Carson Show.  I f'luved VB and when he read his poetry out of his little book (as I remember it), I was simply delighted.  He was one of the Carson guests I made major efforts to watch (and stay awake for).  

VB defined his roll.  It was only slightly redefined Sunday night and that's good for our mental continuity.

Dominic Burgess wisely did not attempt to replicate VB's very idiosyncratic voice and diction. Instead, he creates a real character that evokes VB, without making a caricature out of him.

[enoughcats]

4 hours ago, caracas1914 said:

What's interesting is that "Hush, Hush, Sweet Charlotte" while being both a critical/box office hit, even garnishing 7 academy award noms (including Agness Moorhead for supporting actress)  didn't lead to all that much more for Bette Davis.  

Nor did it do that much for Joseph Cotten. 

Quote

After some time away from film, Cotten returned in the horror classic Hush… Hush, Sweet Charlotte (1964), with Bette Davis, Olivia de Havilland and Agnes Moorehead. The rest of the decade found Cotten in a number of European and Japanese productions, B-movies and made for television movies. 

His last film was Heaven's Gate.  The following year he had a stroke and worked through  it with his long time good friend Orson Wells. 

[NutMeg]

I hadn't realized until reading this thread that so many Somerset Maugham novels or short stories had been made in movies (Rain with Crawford, Of Human Bondage with Davis, probably more...?)

[peacheslatour]

6 hours ago, NutMeg said:

I hadn't realized until reading this thread that so many Somerset Maugham novels or short stories had been made in movies (Rain with Crawford, Of Human Bondage with Davis, probably more...?)

The Letter with Davis too. Then there was Razor's Edge with Tyrone Power, Clifton Webb and Gene Tierney. and probably still more.

[bmoore4026]

This was probably asked and answered already, but did Anne Bancroft ever get that statuette?

And I've said this before, but I'd like to see a mini-series on the various feuds that occurred behind the scenes in Marvel Comics.  From Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, and Steve Ditko to Jim Shooter and how he acted to editors lavishing so much on hotshot artists who then leave and leave those guys dangling in the wind to all of Perlmutter's crap and Kevin Feige taking the movies away from him and Joe Quesada and Brian Michael Bendis and coming out on top.  It might damage relations between Fox and Marvel further, but it's a story that needs to be told.

[enoughcats]

49 minutes ago, bmoore4026 said:

but did Anne Bancroft ever get that statuette?

A year later, on stage in NYC, while wearing her dowdy stage makeup

[GreekGeek]

It's been mentioned in the episode threads that Bette is continually surrounded by people while Joan is alone or only with Mamacita. But Joan often refers to friends we don't see. She said that Loretta Young and Barbara Stanwyck turned down the Miriam role in HHSC because they're her friends. Did they actually turn down the role out of loyalty to Joan, or did they not want to do it for some other reason?

[ennui]

On 4/17/2017 at 10:41 AM, TexasGal said:

Does anyone know what happened with the lawsuit filed against Joan?  Did they drop it after they replaced her, or did she end up having to pay the costs (I think they said $100,000) from her shenanigans?

It was an or-else lawsuit. Return to work or we will sue you. Joan went to work.

[enoughcats]

15 hours ago, GreekGeek said:

 

It's been mentioned in the episode threads that Bette is continually surrounded by people while Joan is alone or only with Mamacita. But Joan often refers to friends we don't see.

 

Spoiler

According to her will, she had other friends, who received bequests.

https://www.joancrawfordbest.com/willtext.htm

And the charities she left funds to were diverse, as well. 

Among those JC chose to remember: Betty Barker had a most interesting life

Spoiler

as detailed in her obituary. http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/latimes/obituary.aspx?pid=155700960 

Florence Walsh 

Spoiler

had a similar connection to JC as did Betty Barker http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/washingtonpost/obituary.aspx?n=florence-m-walsh&pid=14327496

Reading parts of The Essential Joan Crawford, there're comments worth sharing: Cesar Romero her lifelong friend, Anne Bancroft turning down the lead in Mommy Dearest after reading the script, and on and on.

[sugarbaker design]

On 4/18/2017 at 9:52 AM, NutMeg said:

I hadn't realized until reading this thread that so many Somerset Maugham novels or short stories had been made in movies (Rain with Crawford, Of Human Bondage with Davis, probably more...?)

There were a couple of movies that included 3 short stories each, kind of like the Tales From The Crypt movie format.

Quartet (1948)

Trio (1950)

[BloggerAloud]

Has anybody here watched Bette Davis's unaired sitcom pilot The Decorator?

[Scarlett45]

I had recorded the series but hadn't had a chance to watch until recently. I wanted to say I really enjoyed the conversation in this thread. Thank you everyone!

[Jan Spears]

On ‎4‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 4:40 AM, GreekGeek said:

It's been mentioned in the episode threads that Bette is continually surrounded by people while Joan is alone or only with Mamacita. But Joan often refers to friends we don't see. She said that Loretta Young and Barbara Stanwyck turned down the Miriam role in HHSC because they're her friends. Did they actually turn down the role out of loyalty to Joan, or did they not want to do it for some other reason?

Probably some of both. Contrary to how the mini-series is depicting Crawford as friendless, Crawford and Stanwyck were great friends until Crawford's death (as were her old MGM pals Myrna Loy and Roz Russell.) There was odd blood between Crawford and Young during the 30s not least because they were both involved with Clark Gable during that decade. (Young's "adopted" daughter was really her out-of-wedlock daughter with Gable.) But, after Crawford moved to New York permanently, she used a condo in a building owned by Young whenever she (Crawford) was working in or visiting LA.

Friendship may have played a part in these actresses turning down Hush, Hush . . . Sweet Charlotte. But keep in mind too that not all of the actresses from Hollywood's Golden Age (the 30s-40s-50s) wanted to appear in the Grand Guignol/horror hags genre. Crawford and Davis were very fond of it and they remain to this day the two actresses most closely associated with the genre. There were others, though, who preferred not to work or to work in television (i.e Stanwyck in The Big Valley) rather than subvert their glamorous images from their glory days.

[psychoticstate]

On 4/18/2017 at 9:29 PM, enoughcats said:

A year later, on stage in NYC, while wearing her dowdy stage makeup

Not so.  It was about a month later that Ms. Bancroft received her Oscar. 

ETA:  It was on May 6, 1963, following the final curtain of "Mother Courage and Her Children" at the Martin Beck Theater.   The Oscars were on April 8, 1963, so not quite a month.   

ETA2:  I think it may have been Bette Davis that started that story that Joan held on to Bancroft's Oscar for a year.  Maybe a little bit of sour grapes? 

Edited April 20, 2017 by psychoticstate
Adding specific dates

[enoughcats]

17 minutes ago, psychoticstate said:

 

On 4/19/2017 at 0:29 AM, enoughcats said:

A year later, on stage in NYC, while wearing her dowdy stage makeup

Not so.  It was about a month later that Ms. Bancroft received her Oscar. 

 

Thank you for the correction. I couldn't find a date with the picture and I had read somewhere it was a year later. 

[psychoticstate]

Just now, enoughcats said:

Thank you for the correction. I couldn't find a date with the picture and I had read somewhere it was a year later. 

No worries!  I just updated my post (again.)  I think Bette Davis had initially made the comment that Crawford held on to the Oscar for a year before returning it and then it became one of those urban legend things.  

Honestly, I'm surprised that Feud didn't at least have a quick scene of Joan taking the Oscar to Bancroft. 

[enoughcats]

10 minutes ago, psychoticstate said:

Honestly, I'm surprised that Feud didn't at least have a quick scene of Joan taking the Oscar to Bancroft. 

Especially with Crawford looking that drop dead gorgeous.

Oh, wait, they seemed to have a problem letting Crawford look great at any time. /snark

[ennui]

When I was looking for the sunglasses, I found an article about the homes. They said that Joan had one house, but she kept changing the outside and the decor, so it looked like a completely different house. Bette, on the other hand, lived in a few different homes and they all looked the same. So, their taste in clothing was reflected in their homes, as well. Bette liked capri pants and sweaters, Joan always looked like a movie star. 

Article about the clothes and color palettes -- http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/fx-feud-bette-davis-joan-crawford-wardrobe-costume-design-1201998991/

Edited April 20, 2017 by ennui

[LMM]

 

This shows the rivets the most clearly out of pics I can find online. Joan wears a light pink pair for reading a couple of times that I like, but I can't find a really sharp photo of those online. 

[psychoticstate]

51 minutes ago, enoughcats said:

Especially with Crawford looking that drop dead gorgeous.

Oh, wait, they seemed to have a problem letting Crawford look great at any time. /snark

I agree!  Joan looked terrific.  I have another pic and you can really see how gorgeous her dress is but the site won't let me post it right now. 

[Florinaldo]

2 hours ago, enoughcats said:

Especially with Crawford looking that drop dead gorgeous.

Oh, wait, they seemed to have a problem letting Crawford look great at any time. /snark

In that photograph JC does look like the perfect image of Hollywood aristocracy she probably wanted to convey even as an older actress past the age of conventional beauty according to industry standards, but unfortunately either because of her plastic surgery or too many injections (botox or collagen, I am not sure) JL cannot emulate the vitality that JC still exudes at this point in her life thanks to such an expressive face. Which appears to fit the point of view the show is taking in their contrasting portrayals of the two actresses.

Edited April 21, 2017 by Florinaldo

[ennui]

I'm not certain, but I don't think those are rivets; I think it's just a small decoration. Most cat-eye glasses have something decorative in that space. I did find some retro glasses with the little gold V, but the V is sideways.

[caracas1914]

Joan looked fantastic in PR photo ops for that time, probably manicured, buffed, massaged,  and with make up etc within an inch of her life, but that was the whole point.  Joan was all about image and control.  She carried that illusion well, at least in public.

Jessica can't seem to carry that same air in her role.

The Bette Davis comparison is apt in that in some films Bette was portraying characters who were supposed to be surpassing beautiful or alluring, her acting carried it off, something Lange can't quite do in this role.

Edited April 21, 2017 by caracas1914

[enoughcats]

We've seen a little here about Hedda Hopper's costumes and hats.  Reading Hedda and Louella, there are some things about Hedda that explain what we've been seeing.
When she went to Hollywood with her husband DeWitt Hopper and their young son, she didn't think she had any hope of being in the movies.  All the successful actresses were short, around five feet tall, and Hedda was 5'8" or so.  Then she said she met Lillian Russell, who was Famous, and who had enjoyed the good life and good food. When she met Miss Russell, she decided never to gain weight. (Page 70) "Elda admired Miss Russell, but cast a cool  appraising eye on the star's too ample proportions and resolved never to indulge her appetite until she lost her figure.  Indeed, she began then a series of exercises which she continued until the end of her life"

Which may be a connection she had with Joan Crawford.  Or just a coincidence. 

Miss Hopper heard of a roll the needed a taller person, and she got it and a $5000 advance which she spent on designer clothing.  And all of a sudden, she looked great and her Silent Movie career began. Clothing and style mattered to her and defined who she was.

Edited April 21, 2017 by enoughcats

[Gemma Violet]

If this has been posted, please disregard:  I read in Entertainment Weekly (an issue from last month) that the main Pepsi guy that Joan butted heads with after her husband Mr. Steele died was the godfather of Jessica Lange's daughter.  Talk about a small world.

[enoughcats]

On 4/20/2017 at 7:28 PM, LMM said:

 

 

This shows the rivets the most clearly out of pics I can find online. Joan wears a light pink pair for reading a couple of times that I like, but I can't find a really sharp photo of those online. 

 

If ever I worked in an office, this photo would be my screen saver. 

[enoughcats]

I'm still plodding through Hedda and Louella.  

Hedda isn't a gossip columnist yet, although she's writing something for a minor paper.  Louella is well established and has just written (page 142)

Quote

"little Bette Davis, blonde, young, and with ability" was being groomed by Warner's,, Louella added:"Bette has a great chance if she will put herself in the hands of a capable make-up man.  She gave a good performance in Seed, and I was not disturbed by over-beaded eyelashes and an over-rouged mouth..."

Same page

Quote

"Katherine Hepburn has proven that she is not all snobbery and self-satisfaction."

I can't help but wonder if Bette was jealous of the niche Hepburn seemed to be appropriating for herself? 

[Mindthinkr]

10 hours ago, enoughcats said:

If ever I worked in an office, this photo would be my screen saver. 

Oh gosh. It reminds me of the painting American Gothic lol

[enoughcats]

Lest I forget:  Joan Crawford was tiny.  We have mentioned on here that she seems to have a large presence on stage.  This was found in Photoplay of 1923.  Some of the shoe sizes make me wonder how many toes some of these actresses had. The other measurements....