All Episodes Talk: Lorelai and Rory and the People They Love

[chitowngirl]

7 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Quoting myself to add this was in no way intended as a poke at you chitowngirl.

I didn’t think it was 😆. I also get frustrated by “holiday” programming because on a day off of work I want to watch the things I can’t watch because...work... and I find that the schedule has changed for the day.

[peacheslatour]

12 minutes ago, chitowngirl said:

I didn’t think it was 😆. I also get frustrated by “holiday” programming because on a day off of work I want to watch the things I can’t watch because...work... and I find that the schedule has changed for the day.

Damned straight!

[Katy M]

So, I was thinking about Lorelai's parenting skills. Why?  No idea.

Anyway, when the show starts Rory is almost 16.  We know that Lorelai got pregnant around 16/17.  So, she probably felt like that's the age she was an adult and should have been treated as such.

When we first meet Rory at 16, she's more or less respectful, well-behaved, a good student, etc.  I don't think she got that way totally by accident, or nature (especially considering how she ends up evolving). I think as a child, Lorelai set reasonable boundaries and raised her with rules and to be respectful, etc.  But, when she turned 16, she started treating Rory like the adult she felt that she was when she was 16.  Very few rules.  Just tell me before you have sex and then have at it.  No punishment when she does do something wrong such as skipping school, staying out all night, letting someone else drive her car (sorry but that was a big rule for everyone I knew when I was growing up), breaking into the school in the middle of the night, throwing a temper tantrum during class. She even let her drive all the way to Hartford with no license. 

So, anyway, I think the Rory that we saw at the beginning, could have become a more responsible, centered person if she had only gotten that extra two years of guidance.  There's still quite a bit of maturing to do in the 16-18 age arena.

[Taryn74]

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

So, I was thinking about Lorelai's parenting skills. Why?  No idea.

Heh.

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

We know that Lorelai got pregnant around 16/17.  So, she probably felt like that's the age she was an adult and should have been treated as such.

Actually it's worse than that - Lorelai was pregnant already on her 16th birthday.  So yeah, that's a great point that she considered herself no longer a child by that age, so that's how she treated Rory at that age as well.

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

No punishment when she does do something wrong such as skipping school, staying out all night, letting someone else drive her car (sorry but that was a big rule for everyone I knew when I was growing up), breaking into the school in the middle of the night, throwing a temper tantrum during class.

As much as I hate everyone treating Jess like the Spawn of Satan for the car wreck, you're right that it's a pretty given rule for most teens that nobody else is allowed to drive their car.  

4 hours ago, Katy M said:

She even let her drive all the way to Hartford with no license. 

I see people mention this from time to time, are you referring to the Deer Hunters episode?  I don't think it was ever established on the show that Rory didn't have her driver's license yet at this point.  Even at her age (almost 16) if Connecticut's laws are anything like our laws here in Arkansas, she could have had a hardship license allowing her to drive certain places (school being one of them) without an adult in the car.  My 14 yo is going to have to get his hardship license this year because I cannot currently drive (I started having seizures a few months ago, and I have to be seizure-free for at least a year before I can drive again) and he just has to have his permit for 6 months before he can get a hardship license.

[Katy M]

23 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

As much as I hate everyone treating Jess like the Spawn of Satan for the car wreck, you're right that it's a pretty given rule for most teens that nobody else is allowed to drive their car.  

Yep.  The accident may not have been completely his fault, although I don't think he was giving the driving his full attention, but he shouldn't have been driving.  I doubt he would have been covered insurance-wise if he had hit a person instead of a deer.

24 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

I see people mention this from time to time, are you referring to the Deer Hunters episode?  I don't think it was ever established on the show that Rory didn't have her driver's license yet at this point.  Even at her age (almost 16) if Connecticut's laws are anything like our laws here in Arkansas, she could have had a hardship license allowing her to drive certain places (school being one of them) without an adult in the car. 

I looked up the CT law when we had the conversation earler on this site.  You're only allowed to drive so many miles (I don't remember how many, but not enough to get her to Hartford).  And, you can only get it to drive to school or work. Rory didn't have a job and that was literally the first time she drove to school.  She would not have had that hardshoip license.

[chitowngirl]

I thought the Rory’s Birthday Parties episode was supposed to air earlier, but the order of episodes got switched around, so Rory would have had her license by the time of the Deer Hunters.

[chessiegal]

I think the whole business of driving a car alone before she was 16 was lazy writing that we saw over and over again on this show (that I love, but, boy howdy, lots of lazy writing).

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, chessiegal said:

I think the whole business of driving a car alone before she was 16 was lazy writing that we saw over and over again on this show (that I love, but, boy howdy, lots of lazy writing).

It probably was. Rory was always referred to as sixteen before her birthday. In the first episode with the guy who hit on Lorelai and then Rory, Lorelai tells him she's sixteen. Plus all of the never ending comparisons between Lorelai getting pregnant at sixteen and Rory being sixteen. Although it is weird Lorelai is always referred to being sixteen when she was pregnant or had Rory. Then in Rory's Birthday Parties its Lorelai was pregnant at her birthday. There's no reason they couldn't have said the whole time she was fifteen when she got pregnant.  

[Katy M]

10 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

I thought the Rory’s Birthday Parties episode was supposed to air earlier, but the order of episodes got switched around, so Rory would have had her license by the time of the Deer Hunters.

Doesn't matter what's supposed to happen.  only matters what actually happens.

[Taryn74]

6 hours ago, Katy M said:

Doesn't matter what's supposed to happen.  only matters what actually happens.

By that same token, though, there was never any on-screen implication that Rory was driving illegally in Deer Hunters.  She didn't protest "But I don't even have my license yet" when Lorelai told her to just take the Jeep and she'd get a ride into work with Sookie.  Lane didn't say anything when Rory called to ask about her test notes (and Rory told her she was driving).  We never have an episode later where Rory goes to take her driver's test.  So, we have to take it as canon that Rory was somehow able to legally drive by that point even though the show never explains how.

Not trying to be argumentative LOL, but that's just the way it is.

[Katy M]

26 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

By that same token, though, there was never any on-screen implication that Rory was driving illegally in Deer Hunters.  She didn't protest "But I don't even have my license yet" when Lorelai told her to just take the Jeep and she'd get a ride into work with Sookie.  Lane didn't say anything when Rory called to ask about her test notes (and Rory told her she was driving).  We never have an episode later where Rory goes to take her driver's test.  So, we have to take it as canon that Rory was somehow able to legally drive by that point even though the show never explains how.

Not trying to be argumentative LOL, but that's just the way it is.

We'll have to agree to disagree.  Because the moment I saw that episode I was wondering why Lorelai was letting her drive, to Hartford no less, with no license.  And, why Rory needed to be talking on her phone while she did so, but of course, Lorelai didn't have anything to do with that.

I doubt Lane would have said anything.  I certainly wouldn't have at that age. Rory just wanted to get to her test, so she wouldn't have taken time to protest the only solution.

[chitowngirl]

AND...why did Rory NEED her notes/book??? The test was first thing in the morning!! Get your ass (legally driving or not) to school!!!

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, chitowngirl said:

AND...why did Rory NEED her notes/book??? The test was first thing in the morning!! Get your ass (legally driving or not) to school!!!

I've always assumed that she was going to make Lane read to her out of it.  She was late when she stopped for less than 5 minutes over the deer incident.  So, I would think she knew she didn't have time to turn around to go to Lane's.

[marineg]

On 6/6/2019 at 12:05 AM, Katy M said:

I've always assumed that she was going to make Lane read to her out of it.  She was late when she stopped for less than 5 minutes over the deer incident.  So, I would think she knew she didn't have time to turn around to go to Lane's.

I agree but still. She knew she was already late, she didn't need Lane to read her her notes, or to know that they were there.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, marineg said:

I agree but still. She knew she was already late, she didn't need Lane to read her her notes, or to know that they were there.

I guess from her perspective, she had a half hour for Lane to devote to reading her her notes as she drove to school, hitting deer and who knows what else?  She's actually lucky she hit the deer, because it probably made her realize that she needed to pay attention to her driving.  If she had been that distracted when she hit Hartford, she may have had a much worse accident. 

[FictionLover]

There is a category about reasons to hate Lorelai, but what about Rory? Has anyone noticed that Rory ruined major milestones for her mom.

She missed her mom’s graduation.

She had an adulterous affair the night of her mom’s big opening.

She has to tell her mom she’s pregnant on her wedding day.

 I don’t know if the writers intended to do that, but it’s one of the reasons I never cared for that character.

[ghoulina]

The longer I've watched this show, the more I've come to find Rory a pretty unlikable character. Especially in the later seasons. But I never stopped to put all that together. Wow, she is just really selfish, isn't she? 

[Taryn74]

51 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

But I never stopped to put all that together. Wow, she is just really selfish, isn't she?

Same! Pretty shocking when you look at it like that.

You could also consider her hissy fit and moving in with the grandparents as the catalyst for Lorelai/Luke getting engaged as ruining that milestone, too.

[Katy M]

23 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

.Same! Pretty shocking when you look at it like that.

You could also consider her hissy fit and moving in with the grandparents as the catalyst for Lorelai/Luke getting engaged as ruining that milestone, too.

Rory was wrong to steal the yacht, and wrong to run away from her problems.  But, Lorelai's response to that is all on her.  If that was actually her motivation for getting engaged, that's immaturity on her part.

Plus, Rory was an adult at that point. If she wanted to move out on her own (ha, ha, just kidding, living in your grandparent's pool house isn't being on your own), then that was her right.   I've never been sure whether Lorelai was 18 or not when she left home, but she also ran away under the same circumstances.  At least she knew where Rory was.

I actually didn't like a lot of the way Rory treated her grandparents after moving in.  No, Rory, you don't get be mad that you're not allowed to have sex at someone else's house.  You're not paying rent.  You have to follow the rules of the house. And, you don't have to act annoyed that someone threw you a 21st birthday party. (I may be reading into that one, but that's the vibe I got).

[BlancheDevoreaux]

I just finished binge watching the series yet again and I can say I have officially changed my Team Dean status to Team Logan. Seeing his transformation through the last 3 seasons as well as how he changed Rory makes me really love his character. I do, however, have a real issue with their affair in the revival, especially after her reaction to him sleeping with all the bridesmaids when they were on a break/broken up. I think I'm just going to pretend the revival never happened.

And, while I get the whole "Luke and Lorelai" thing, I actually like Christopher and Lorelai more. And now I need to duck the things I'm sure many are throwing at me.

Edited July 5, 2019 by BlancheDevoreaux

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

Rory was never nice, she was just pretty and quiet. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

Rory was never nice, she was just pretty and quiet. 

So much of what the show played for laughs were things that showed she really wasn't a nice person (Lorelai too, but she had more redeeming qualities) - making fun of Christmas card pictures comes to mind. Lorelai though seemed to be genuinely thoughtful toward many other people in her life.  I never saw Rory go out of her life to do something thoughtful for someone else.

[elang4]

2 minutes ago, deaja said:

So much of what the show played for laughs were things that showed she really wasn't a nice person (Lorelai too, but she had more redeeming qualities) - making fun of Christmas card pictures comes to mind. Lorelai though seemed to be genuinely thoughtful toward many other people in her life.  I never saw Rory go out of her life to do something thoughtful for someone else.

I agree that Rory could be selfish but to be fair to her she has definitely done a lot of thoughtful things for Paris. Like she let her do whatever she wanted when Asher died and she supported her with the wake that Paris wanted to hold.

[chessiegal]

Rory did a lot to support Paris, especially how rotten Paris was to her at Chilton.

[Katy M]

Rory did tons of nice things. 

She got Tristan to go on a date with Paris. It didn't work out, but it's the thought that counts.

She was extremely nice and thoughtful to Richard when his mother died.

She dyed Lane's hair and then dyed it back.  I mean if you think about it, I'm sure bleaching someone's hair and then dying it and then bleaching it and dying again took hours.  Lane's probably lucky her hair didn't fall out, though.

She was involved with every single charitable town function and considering how shy she was, I don't think she was doing it for her own personal glory.

She got Jess to be nicer to Luke.

She got Dean to get his friend to go out with Lane.  Again, it didn't work out, but that's what Lane asked for.  

I think she went through with the debutante thing for Emily.

[FictionLover]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Rory did tons of nice things. 

She got Tristan to go on a date with Paris. It didn't work out, but it's the thought that counts.

She was extremely nice and thoughtful to Richard when his mother died.

She dyed Lane's hair and then dyed it back.  I mean if you think about it, I'm sure bleaching someone's hair and then dying it and then bleaching it and dying again took hours.  Lane's probably lucky her hair didn't fall out, though.

She was involved with every single charitable town function and considering how shy she was, I don't think she was doing it for her own personal glory.

She got Jess to be nicer to Luke.

She got Dean to get his friend to go out with Lane.  Again, it didn't work out, but that's what Lane asked for.  

I think she went through with the debutante thing for Emily.

All early Rory. She was okay for the first 2 seasons but things changed during the 3rd. But that’s just my take on it.

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, FictionLover said:

All early Rory. She was okay for the first 2 seasons but things changed during the 3rd. But that’s just my take on it.

I agree. I only like high school Rory. She's OK first year of college, but you can definitely see the changes starting, they're just not irreversible yet.  I mean, getting upset over a study tree?  Having to call Lorelai to come spend the night with her at her first night of college?  My mom would not have done that.  She would have told me to get to know my roommates or something.  Talking on the phone instead of doing her job of swiping cards at the café (not a horribly difficult job, Rory, but you have to at least pay attention).  But, the affair with Dean and stealing that yacht were the last straws.

[peacheslatour]

Quote

She dyed Lane's hair and then dyed it back.  I mean if you think about it, I'm sure bleaching someone's hair and then dying it and then bleaching it and dying again took hours.  Lane's probably lucky her hair didn't fall out, though.

Would you really need to bleach it again if you're only dying it black?

[chessiegal]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Having to call Lorelai to come spend the night with her at her first night of college?  My mom would not have done that. 

My Mom would have. I really relate to that. I was so homesick my 1st semester, she made a dentist appointment the day after Thanksgiving so I could fly home for the weekend.

[Katy M]

46 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Would you really need to bleach it again if you're only dying it black?

Maybe not.  Regardless, that was a long project and she had to climb out the window, and presumably back in the window.

[peacheslatour]

16 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Maybe not.  Regardless, that was a long project and she had to climb out the window, and presumably back in the window.

True that.

[BlancheDevoreaux]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

Having to call Lorelai to come spend the night with her at her first night of college?  My mom would not have done that.  She would have told me to get to know my roommates or something. 

Tiathat episode had me really rolling my eyes. I am supposed to be a year older than Rory. My roommate freshman year was a real wuss. No hyperbole, she cried every single night because she was homesick. Every. Single. Night. My suitemates and I tried to be compassionate and understanding, but come on.  She came back from Thanksgiving saying she and her family worked out a schedule where she never went more than one weekend without either one of them coming to see her or her going home. She slowly stated moving herself out and back home before spring break. By finals working semester, she was down to a set of sheets and like 4 outfits. I don't talk to her anymore but my suitemates and I are still closeto this day.

Anyway, when Rory went all baby and needed her mom to spend the night, we all got a kick out of it and had flashbacks to freshman year and that annoyance.

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, BlancheDevoreaux said:

Tiathat episode had me really rolling my eyes. I am supposed to be a year older than Rory. My roommate freshman year was a real wuss. No hyperbole, she cried every single night because she was homesick. Every. Single. Night. My suitemates and I tried to be compassionate and understanding, but come on.  She came back from Thanksgiving saying she and her family worked out a schedule where she never went more than one weekend without either one of them coming to see her or her going home. She slowly stated moving herself out and back home before spring break. By finals working semester, she was down to a set of sheets and like 4 outfits. I don't talk to her anymore but my suitemates and I are still closeto this day.

Anyway, when Rory went all baby and needed her mom to spend the night, we all got a kick out of it and had flashbacks to freshman year and that annoyance.

Honestly, I have to say I'm actually more annoyed with Lorelai in that situation than I am with Rory.  Rory was scared and homesick.  She called in a moment of panic.  Understandable.  She would have gotten over it. Unlike your roommate, she did not cry every night thereafter.  Although, I think she did go home about every weekend, but she was at least generally fine during the week.  Lorelai knew she would get over it.  She should have just given her an encouraging pep talk, made the suggestion to buy a couple pizzas.  Seriously, you want to get to know people in college, free pizza will bring them in every time.  I find it very unbelievable that Rory wasn't branded as the girl who needed her mommy for the rest of the year. 

[andromeda331]

I only like high school Rory and freshmen Rory, although I hated her mooning over Jess while not breaking up with Dean. She also never really saw a problem with it. But we still got enough of other times that balanced it out or she wasn't annoying. Planning her mother's 35th birthday party, her talk with Paris when she had sex, comforting her after Paris's flipped out at CSPAN and visiting her when she didn't get into Harvard, being mad at Richard on her own behalf after he tricked into coming to Yale for an interview, dying Lane's hair, etc.

Once she's in college she becomes an entitled, self-absorbed, spoiled brat. I like most of her freshmen year it was nice to see a lackluster love life, and college stuff. But you also see how unable Rory is to suck things up or figuring things out herself, and how often she needs Lorelai to bail her out. Starting with the first episode when she knows Lorelai didn't come to Friday night dinner because of Rory's mistake. She wrote the date down wrong and knows that's why Emily's upset and won't let her leave. But she says nothing and calls her mommy to rescue her. Which of course Lorelai does.  Also you notice when Rory's freaking out over the wrong date she mentions she can't believe they went to stalked Bono. Ah, Rory, your not off schedule because you stalked Bono, your off schedule because you wrote down the wrong date. Had you told Lorelai the right date you probably would have skipped or at least could have decided whether to or go home and get ready for Yale. She calls Lorelai again the next episode because she already misses her. Lorelai comes again. Not only does she come but she manages to have a fun night for the dorm girls. Rory never even thought about doing that and she didn't follow up with friendships with any of those girls. Lorelai had to talk her into going to the party in her own dorm room. Rory probably wouldn't even had gone if Paris hadn't called Lorelai. Also, why is Rory allowed to veto a party in the dorm room? She seemed to be the only hold out. The study tree Rory flipping out over a freaking tree coming home ranting about someone stealing her study tree and she was going to flunk out of college. I do like Lorelai going off on her to suck it up and that if a plan doesn't work then figure something else out. I wish we had gotten a few more scenes of Lorelai doing that. But seriously, she was right. I hate her paying the guy to leave. It would have been more nice to see her figure something else out. Uncertain what to do on a bad date, call Lorelai. When she's doing tryout articles for the paper and is shocked that their not good, she even asks Doyle at one point if she's being hazed, Lorelai points out that its a different level but Rory just keeps complaining. The ticked off person she wrote off hunting her down and going off on her. It never once occurred to her that could happen? Really? That happens to journalists all the time. I'm not saying she was wrong about the review but she's really shocked that the person she wrote about read all of those things and was mad enough to hunt her down? But then she tries to get Doyle to let her re-review the review or a story on the ballerina. If she really wants to be journalist she's going to have to deal with that. Season four I really see her bad qualities more they are still balanced out by good scenes her and Richard, learning about Trix for the obituary, moving pictures, and other stuff liking how many classes she's shopping and being the first person to her first class. Towards the end with the Dean stuff is when I really start disliking her and hating her from sophomore on. The worse part thanks to the revival Rory never gets better. The selfish spoiled entitled brat never goes away. The good qualities she did have go away.

As much as I hate Emily I think of good qualities or parts of her life like how busy she is with DAR and other functions, running the house for Richard and a long marriage. Lorelai, has a lot of annoying qualities putting it mildly but she at least worked her way up from a maid to running the Independence Inn, went in with Sookie for their own inn, and raised a daughter.  Rory never really does anything. She sort of had a career but not really because she picked and chose what stories she wanted and clearly never had to suck it up for a story, job or pay. She doesn't really have a home but keeps her stuff in three different places. Treating men like crap is something she started in high school but clearly never outgrow. She never stops cheating.  Crushing on and wanting to be with Jess while dating Dean, cheats with Dean even though he's with Lindsay and she didn't even really want him he because she loved him but because she had a lackluster dating life, then likes and chases after Logan while she's with Dean. Oh, and she totally hated Jess dating someone else when she was still with Dean. She treats everyone like crap, including her mother. We never see her get better. 

Edited July 7, 2019 by andromeda331

[Katy M]

5 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I only like high school Rory and freshmen Rory, although I hated her mooning over Jess while not breaking up with Dean. She also never really saw a problem with it.

I disagree with that.  She saw the problem.  She even apologized to Dean later. She wasn't setting out to hurt anyone.  She was just a confused teenager who wanted to love Dean, but loved Jess instead.  If she were 30 years old at the time, then I would have had a problem with it. Here, I just saw it as growing up and learning.

I agree with the rest of your Rory points.

[andromeda331]

25 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I disagree with that.  She saw the problem.  She even apologized to Dean later. She wasn't setting out to hurt anyone.  She was just a confused teenager who wanted to love Dean, but loved Jess instead.  If she were 30 years old at the time, then I would have had a problem with it. Here, I just saw it as growing up and learning.

I agree with the rest of your Rory points.

 No she wasn't setting out to hurt anyone but she did hurt people. But worse of all she never learned from it. Had she and her following relationships didn't involve her falling and chasing after someone else or cheating I would chalk it up to teen stuff. Jess was her first crush even though she was with Dean and liked Dean and he was nice to her and she didn't know what to do with. But looking at it along with all her relationships its a start what becomes a pattern and a lesson she never really learned from. Which is disappointing. The Rory of the early years had empathy and felt bad when she did hurt people. The Rory of the college years didn't. 

Edited July 6, 2019 by andromeda331

[ghoulina]

With regard to Rory-Dean-Jess. I don't think she was confused. I think she knew exactly what she wanted but she was afraid. Rory was seen by everybody as this perfect angel. I think she was afraid of looking like a jerk if she dumped nice guy Dean for Jess, who everybody in town hated. Dean even called her out on her need for everyone to like her. And I think that was completely true. 

I think it was really unfair, to both guys, how long she delayed doing what she knew she wanted to do very early on. 

[Katy M]

25 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

With regard to Rory-Dean-Jess. I don't think she was confused. I think she knew exactly what she wanted but she was afraid. Rory was seen by everybody as this perfect angel. I think she was afraid of looking like a jerk if she dumped nice guy Dean for Jess, who everybody in town hated. Dean even called her out on her need for everyone to like her. And I think that was completely true. 

I think it was really unfair, to both guys, how long she delayed doing what she knew she wanted to do very early on. 

I don't think anyone is arguing that it wasn't fair.

I agree that part of Rory's indecision came from fear of what others' would think. But, I don't think that was the only consideration. I think she was also afraid of Jess in a way.  I don't mean that he was going to physically hurt her, but that he would leave, be a jerk to her the way he was to everyone else, etc.  She probably figured life would just be easier if she could love Dean instead of Jess.  But, unfortunately for her, that's not the way feelings work.

And, I think she was afraid of hurting Dean, which there was no way not to do, even if she had dumped in Hazy Lazy.

Edited July 9, 2019 by Katy M

[marineg]

On 7/9/2019 at 4:24 PM, ghoulina said:

With regard to Rory-Dean-Jess. I don't think she was confused. I think she knew exactly what she wanted but she was afraid. Rory was seen by everybody as this perfect angel. I think she was afraid of looking like a jerk if she dumped nice guy Dean for Jess, who everybody in town hated. Dean even called her out on her need for everyone to like her. And I think that was completely true. 

On 7/9/2019 at 4:49 PM, Katy M said:

I think she was also afraid of Jess in a way.  I don't mean that he was going to physically hurt her, but that he would leave, be a jerk to her the way he was to everyone else, etc.  She probably figured life would just be easier if she could love Dean instead of Jess.

I tend to agree with @ghoulina here. I don't think she was afraid of Jess hurting her. I think she was afraid of herself, her feelings, and that they didn't coincide with this idea that everyone had of her, herself included. She put this perfect image out into the world; it wasn't just other people thinking that she was a perfect angel, that's who she wanted to be. She wanted to be the easy child to her teen mom, the studious child to make her grandparents proud, the perfect SH girl to her neighbours, etc. I believe that she felt her conception was a mistake and she was determined to prove everybody that they were right to have invested their time and love in her when many would wanted Lorelai not to have/raise the baby.

Jess was unexpected, and in a way, just for her. With Dean, it was the perfect choice, the perfect boyfriend, the guy everybody wants to see their daughters/granddaughters/loved ones with (not me, I don't like Dean but whatever). With Jess, it was a gut feeling, something that struck her and didn't go away. Nobody would have wanted it, or wished it, or approved of it, but those feelings were there to stay.

In a way, I see Logan as a mix of Dean and Jess. He as the proper little rich boy, smart, with a great career ahead, a good family, and a lot of potential in the Gilmore/Yale world. But he was also the bad boy, the trinket thief, the boy who swoops you off your feet and drags you somewhere you don't necessarily want to go but where you find happiness. If it makes sense.

[andromeda331]

On 7/9/2019 at 8:49 AM, Katy M said:

I don't think anyone is arguing that it wasn't fair.

I agree that part of Rory's indecision came from fear of what others' would think. But, I don't think that was the only consideration. I think she was also afraid of Jess in a way.  I don't mean that he was going to physically hurt her, but that he would leave, be a jerk to her the way he was to everyone else, etc.  She probably figured life would just be easier if she could love Dean instead of Jess.  But, unfortunately for her, that's not the way feelings work.

And, I think she was afraid of hurting Dean, which there was no way not to do, even if she had dumped in Hazy Lazy.

I do think that was part of it. She didn't want to hurt Dean but there really isn't any way to break up with someone and not have it hurt. In the end she ended up hurting Dean a lot more then he would have been if she broke up with him in Hazy Lazy or the later part of season two when it was clear she was into Jess. I am still troubled that she has to keep being reminded that she's with Dean. She goes off on a long rant after seeing Jess with a girl in Hazy Lazy her mother has to remind her she's with Dean. Jess points that out to her in the Haunted Leg too when she's upset about him and Shane. These wouldn't be bad things if Rory recognized them or learned from them and they didn't end up becoming a pattern with Rory.

[andromeda331]

9 hours ago, marineg said:

I tend to agree with @ghoulina here. I don't think she was afraid of Jess hurting her. I think she was afraid of herself, her feelings, and that they didn't coincide with this idea that everyone had of her, herself included. She put this perfect image out into the world; it wasn't just other people thinking that she was a perfect angel, that's who she wanted to be. She wanted to be the easy child to her teen mom, the studious child to make her grandparents proud, the perfect SH girl to her neighbours, etc. I believe that she felt her conception was a mistake and she was determined to prove everybody that they were right to have invested their time and love in her when many would wanted Lorelai not to have/raise the baby.

Jess was unexpected, and in a way, just for her. With Dean, it was the perfect choice, the perfect boyfriend, the guy everybody wants to see their daughters/granddaughters/loved ones with (not me, I don't like Dean but whatever). With Jess, it was a gut feeling, something that struck her and didn't go away. Nobody would have wanted it, or wished it, or approved of it, but those feelings were there to stay.

This is part of it. Or maybe most of it. I'm not really sure but I would have loved if the show explored that part of Rory. She wanted to be the perfect angel and until college really tried hard to be.  I agree it probably all goes back to her conception which she's heard about her whole life. Her mother got pregnant and it how it ruined her life, her grandparents and Christopher. It destroyed all of their plans, futures, hopes and dreams. Rory loves her mother and really wants to please her and be an easy child for her because she knows she's the reason her mother never went to college, didn't get to follow  any of her dreams and is the reason she left Hartford. Which is some what true but not really. True Lorelai got pregnant, didn't to go college, and bolted with her. But given relationship between Lorelai and her parents its very unlikely that Lorelai wouldn't have clashed over something else and causing a split. She wants to be the perfect granddaughter for her grandparents because they didn't get that with their mother and those things mean a lot to her grandparents. She also tries really hard to be the buffer and mend the relationship with Lorelai and her parents. She probably thinks if it wasn't for her they wouldn't have a falling out. She keeps trying to fix or restore what was broken when Lorelai got pregnant. Same with Christopher, no matter how many times he lets her down or its clear that he's the reason he hasn't done anything with his life. She thinks if it wasn't for her that he would have gone to college and been a success. It would have been interesting to explore. How much of her wanting to go Harvard was really want Rory wanted or she wanted it because her mother did and it made her happy and/or because her mother didn't get to college. Same with Yale and going along with DAR, the debutante and everything else how much of that did Rory really like and how much of it was her going along with it for her grandparents to be who they wanted her to be. I'm not really sure how much of if any of it that Lorelai realizes about Rory. Maybe not at all since she seems just chalk it all up to Rory being a really good kid but I wonder if there's a part of her that wonders. She has spent Rory's entire childhood trying to make sure that Rory doesn't feel bad, guilty or anything over her conception. Her dropping out of Yale could have been a perfect way to really explore that. Or they could have scrapped the Francie stuff and had that part of her last year of Chilton when she freaks out over possibly not getting into Harvard. 

[peacheslatour]

I gotta say that most of the time I'm fairly indifferent to Richard but I'm watching Richard in Stars Hollow and he is detestable. The way he scolds Lorelai about the way she handled a business situation and then again when Dean brings over the car he built for Rory. What a fussy old woman he is.

[ghoulina]

Richard was an ass in that episode, but I kind of felt badly for him. He had just retired and didn't know what to do with himself. This was a man who had worked hard his entire life. Suddenly he feels useless; and unwanted in his own home. It was also quite obvious that Lorelai didn't really want him hanging out in Stars Hollow with her either. Richard was a smart man. He KNEW everyone was pawning him off on each other. 

So, to me, his behavior that day was about fighting for a modicum of control. Making himself feel like he was still that "businessman". That leader. It wasn't his place (in either case); he was definitely out of line. But I understood where he was coming from. 

But I'm one who generally likes the elder Gilmores more than daughter and granddaughter, so I likely have a different perspective. 

[chessiegal]

After Richard scolds Lorelai on her handling of the business transaction, it cracks me up when Michel says softly in a sing-song voice - "Someone is in trouble". - Hee.

[Katy M]

56 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

So, to me, his behavior that day was about fighting for a modicum of control. Making himself feel like he was still that "businessman". That leader. It wasn't his place (in either case); he was definitely out of line. But I understood where he was coming from. 

It wasn't his place, but to a certain extent, he wasn't really wrong in either situation.  That isn't really how you should talk to your suppliers.  However, scolding Lorelai over it, and especially in front of one of her employees was really not cool.  Maybe say something quietly to her after work.

And, I don't think I would let my daughter drive a homemade car until I knew it had been checked out by a mechanic, but as soon as he started making Gypsy do it over and over, that was where he got on my nerves.  He was even right on the Chinese food thing.  We've seen scenes of the girls going through the fridge and throwing out leftover pizzas and Chinese food. They are completely wasteful.  They even had multiple pizza boxes in the fried not knowing which was from which day.  Really?  Why would you order more pizza when you already had some and how many times do you eat pizza in a two week period anyway?

[chessiegal]

In the 1st season, in early episodes they would show a fridge full of healthy food, bowl of apples on the kitchen table. Then the Ps/writers decided to take this turn to the whole unhealthy eating schtick. I realize the Palladinos didn't know at the beginning if the show would last and were still finding the voice of the show, but the changes between Season 1 and later seasons are stark.

Kelly Bishop really knocked the character of Emily out of the park.

For the most part, so much good writing and acting, but still some glaring continuity errors.

[Taryn74]

2 hours ago, Katy M said:

It wasn't his place, but to a certain extent, he wasn't really wrong in either situation.  That isn't really how you should talk to your suppliers.  However, scolding Lorelai over it, and especially in front of one of her employees was really not cool.  Maybe say something quietly to her after work.

Well, to be fair, Richard did pull her aside and spoke to her quietly.  I don't think Michel could actually hear what he was saying, he just judged the content of the conversation by their expressions and her reaction.

I consider Lorelai way more out of line by the way she was - loudly - talking to the supplier than I do Richard for scolding her about it.

[marineg]

I agree. The fact that she wasn't wearing a jacket was a real issue. She's the manager of an inn in a small town in the middle of nowhere. She was still dressed appropriately. However, she was speaking inappropriately to her suppliers, and did so many many times. 

And Rory picked up on it. Remember when Paris had her meltdown at the Yale paper, and Rory had to take over? And she had to convince the printing place to give them an extension? When she got it, she promised the printer a "slightly inappropriate Christmas card." Again, that's not how you do business. Especially considering she was at Yale, speaking to the printer on behalf of one of the best schools in the country, with whom they have probably been in business for quite a few years.

Edited July 15, 2019 by marineg

[Eeksquire]

Quote

And Rory picked up on it. Remember when Paris had her meltdown at the Yale paper, and Rory had to take over? And she had to convince the printing place to give them an extension? When she got it, she promised the printer a "slightly inappropriate Christmas card." Again, that's not how you do business. Especially considering she was at Yale, speaking to the printer on behalf of one of the best schools in the country, with whom they have probably been in business for quite a few years.

Which didn't even work in the end, right? Didn't Logan have to call and throw his name around?

That said, I do think the circumstances were different.  It's one thing for Lorelai to have the conversation with the guy that she's worked with for years and probably knows really well, versus Rory making her first call to the printer and diving right in.  Also: Richard was in a completely different industry than Lorelai and while he might know "business" in an overall way, he knows "high-end insurance clients", which is different from the hospitality business which - at least back of house is substantially more informal.  Like... orders of magnitude less formal.

[andromeda331]

6 hours ago, Eeksquire said:

Which didn't even work in the end, right? Didn't Logan have to call and throw his name around?

That said, I do think the circumstances were different.  It's one thing for Lorelai to have the conversation with the guy that she's worked with for years and probably knows really well, versus Rory making her first call to the printer and diving right in.  Also: Richard was in a completely different industry than Lorelai and while he might know "business" in an overall way, he knows "high-end insurance clients", which is different from the hospitality business which - at least back of house is substantially more informal.  Like... orders of magnitude less formal.

Doesn't Lorelai even say to Richard she knew the supplier for years? I forget what his name was. They knew each other and probably had the same banter and flirting for years. She said what she said to get the linens they really needed sooner and knew him well enough to know that would work. Richard was in a different business. His way of handling people is going to be different from Lorelai's. She runs an inn in a small town where everyone is friendly with everyone. I really didn't see anything wrong with it. If she was in a job like Richard's. Yeah, that would be weird and inappropriate.