All Episodes Talk: Lorelai and Rory and the People They Love

[marineg]

Kind of like Friends when they all go to London. That would have been fun indeed.

[Katy M]

1 hour ago, marineg said:

Kind of like Friends when they all go to London. That would have been fun indeed.

Now I need an alternative universe episode where Rory and Logan do get married, but she says Dean's name in the vows.  And Paris gets depressed and hooks up with Marty.  And, in a strange twist it's not Dean that comes to declare his love to Rory before the wedding, but Jess. Which makes the Dean blunder all the more odd.  But, Dean has happily moved on with Madeline.  Lorelai is pregnant with Kirk''s triplets, so has to miss her own daughter's wedding because she's on bedrest.  Why is she pregnant with Kirk's triplets, you ask?  Well, obviously Kirk invented one of his weird inventions and hilarity ensued and somehow Lorelai got inseminated with his sperm.  I can not make up details as to how that happened.  Just suspend your belief for that one.  I know what you're thinking, just that one.  OK, the whole thing.  That's as much as I can do with the Friends wedding parallel, but I really need to get Lane, Sookie and Luke in there, so I'll have to go out on my own now.  Lane and Zack's band is playing, they are discovered, and offered a multi-million dollar recording contract along with concert tours, etc.  They become the next (insert the name of your favorite really successful band here).  That's all I got.  

[chitowngirl]

Sookie catered the wedding....

[Katy M]

54 minutes ago, chitowngirl said:

Sookie catered the wedding....

Better yet, Sookie and Luke catered it together.  And argued about everything.  Then realized they were in love.  Poor Jackson and Lorelai.  

[chitowngirl]

12 hours ago, Katy M said:

Better yet, Sookie and Luke catered it together.  And argued about everything.  Then realized they were in love.  Poor Jackson and Lorelai.  

Even better!!

[Taryn74]

Something just occurred to me (based on the elimination game we have going on right now) -- Richard never actually agreed to "triple team" Rory over the dropping-out-of-Yale thing.  Emily was the one who jumped in and said they would help Lorelai talk Rory out of it.  All Richard agreed with was that Rory needed some time to cool off and think.  Hmmmm.

 

Quote

LORELAI: This happened on Friday night, Mom, that’s why Rory wasn’t at dinner. She was devastated. Then she went to find Logan at the yacht club, and the two of them stole a yacht!

RICHARD: No, stop it! Stop it, right now!

LORELAI: They were arrested and I had to pick Rory up from the Bridgeport police department.

EMILY: Oh, no.

LORELAI: Ever since she got involved with these people, things have been bad. She’s up and she’s down and she should be stronger than this, I know, but she’s young and she’s Rory and she’s come so far, she’s worked so hard. I just don’t want her to lose this.

[Emily and Richard look at each other.]

RICHARD [pulls a notebook out of his pocket]: What do you want us to do?

LORELAI: Well, I’ve already told her that just coming home and bumming around Stars Hollow is not an option, and I was thinking Friday night at dinner we could triple-team her. I bet between the three of us we could knock some sense into her. But I really need the two of you to back me up on this.

EMILY: Well, of course we’ll back you up! This is not happening!

RICHARD: How much trouble is she in with this yacht incident?

LORELAI: She’s going to need a lawyer.

RICHARD: I’ll call Charlie Newman.

EMILY: Are we sure we want to wait until Friday? Should we confront her now?

LORELAI: No, I think we should give her a chance to cool off a little, maybe some time will make her more receptive.

RICHARD: I agree with Lorelai. Give the girl some time.

EMILY: All right. Friday night it is.

LORELAI: Thank you. Just, thank you. [Richard smiles at her.] I should get going. Dad has to get to work.

EMILY: Would you like something to eat?

LORELAI: No. I just got everything I need.

[junienmomo]

18 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

Something just occurred to me (based on the elimination game we have going on right now) -- Richard never actually agreed to "triple team" Rory over the dropping-out-of-Yale thing.  Emily was the one who jumped in and said they would help Lorelai talk Rory out of it.  All Richard agreed with was that Rory needed some time to cool off and think.  Hmmmm.

 

Good catch. Also good technique for dealing with his wife.

Richard always had his own ideas and plans and didn’t communicate them well. If Rory hadn’t been a crybaby we might have seen more. 

Remember after he took Luke golfing? Emily chastised him for it, but he was playing multiple angles by not objecting to her antics, trying to bring Luke up to country club standards, and directing him to do business the Gilmore way.

Edited January 17, 2019 by junienmomo

[peacheslatour]

Does anyone know why Babette's ceilings were so low?

[Kohola3]

1 hour ago, peacheslatour said:

Does anyone know why Babette's ceilings were so low?

Because she's so short - Sally Struthers is 5'1".  It's a Stars Hollow quirky thing, apparently.

[Eeksquire]

Yeah, I think her house was customized to her height.

Quote

It's a Stars Hollow quirky thing, apparently.

Not necessarily! I knew someone who had her kitchen counters set VERY LOW because that's what was comfortable for her.  (The rest of the house was standard though - no short ceilings!)

[peacheslatour]

But Morey is so tall. She must have purchased the house before they got together.

[Kohola3]

2 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

But Morey is so tall. She must have purchased the house before they got together.

Didn't she say at some point that she didn't think she would every find someone?  So probably built it just for her self.

[Eeksquire]

I think there was some discussion of that at some point - it was always taken as a sign of how much Morey loved Babette that he would live in that tiny house with her!

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

I get customizing cabinets and countertops, but who brings the ceiling lower? 

[marineg]

Babette lived in that house, and probably had it built to her specifications, before she met Morey.

Episode 5 of the first Season - Cinnamon's Wake:

(They start to wash the glasses but the sink is too low for Lorelai. Babette gets a stool for her.)
BABETTE: Here, sugar, use this. Morey sits on it when he helps me.
LORELAI: How does Morey get around in here?
BABETTE: Oh, just fine. He had a couple of concussions his first year here but he never complains. He's just the best thing. I don't know what I'd do without him.

Edited January 23, 2019 by marineg

[Katy M]

On ‎1‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 5:19 PM, Kohola3 said:

Because she's so short - Sally Struthers is 5'1".  It's a Stars Hollow quirky thing, apparently.

Actually, it's very smart. heat rises, so the lower your ceilings the lower your heating bill.

[andromeda331]

On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 6:07 AM, marineg said:

Babette lived in that house, and probably had it built to her specifications, before she met Morey.

Episode 5 of the first Season - Cinnamon's Wake:

(They start to wash the glasses but the sink is too low for Lorelai. Babette gets a stool for her.)
BABETTE: Here, sugar, use this. Morey sits on it when he helps me.
LORELAI: How does Morey get around in here?
BABETTE: Oh, just fine. He had a couple of concussions his first year here but he never complains. He's just the best thing. I don't know what I'd do without him.

I love Babette and Morey, they were cute and cool couple. So many great scenes with them. My favorite thought is Babette hanging Morey when their practicing for Halloween. Its some love that you let your wife hang you and pass out for Halloween.

[andromeda331]

I love Rory in The Breakup episode her reaction and determined not wallow. Definitely remembering that feeling. Then finally breaking down at the end. It was so realistic. I love when the show hits the right notes. I love Lorelai being supportive while trying to give her advice. I love that she saved the Dean boss. She was right sometimes you do end up regretting throwing out stuff.

I love Emily and Lorelai in the last episode of season one when their both dealing with a upset Richard and Rory respectively after Dean comes to dinner. Emily is surprisingly great when he's saying a girl that age shouldn't have a boyfriend about expecting a sixteen year old girl not having a date and when he was getting mad at how Rory looked at him by pointing out he was attacking her boyfriend. Given her attempts later do get Rory to ditch Dean with the Yale boy party, and how she treats Luke. It was really nice. She was initially upset when she saw Dean but listened when Lorelai reminded her that they told Rory she could invite anyone. She dropped it and was really nice. Even trying hard to stop Richard. Lorelai explaining to Rory why Richard got so upset. I love when the phone Emily goes to answer (probably grateful for a reason any reason to get away from Richard) and Richard upset because they weren't done Emily responding with he'll remember where they left off. The hurt when she hears Lorelai's engaged and goes marching into tell Richard what he was going to do. I love that he stops and didn't argue once he heard Lorelai was engaged but didn't tell them. I feel for both of them. I love Richard apologizing again the next episode it was so sweet Rory reminding him it was just a fight and to buck up. I did wonder for the first time if he was worried that his relationship with Rory might have been jeopardized and worried it might end up going the same way as his and Lorelai's relationship. The way he apologizes again and wants to touch base made me wonder. 

Listening to Emily and Richard sometimes its so amazingly obvious where Lorelai gets her wit. Emily is more obvious. But Richard has so many remarks or comments too that Emily's not the only one where Lorelai got in from. When Richard was complaining about the function in P.S. I Lo.. and talking about flinging himself off at the function they were going too. All I could think was he sounded like Lorelai. And his excitement a few minutes later that he gets to miss the function he didn't want to go. 

[voiceover]

Yayyyyy!!!  A GG first for me today!

re: "Lorelai? Lorelai?" (the karaoke ep):  I'd seen this in its original airing, and x-hundreds of times as a rerun.  But for whatever bizarro reason, I'd always managed to miss the first ten minutes, so I had never seen the "Luke hat" moment.  I had spun numerous fanfics in my head, all of them showing Luke making the conscious choice to start wearing his blue cap again, and "accidentally/on purpose" shoving the black one behind the dishwasher*.  

But FINALLY, I was home & the TV was on & I was sitting it front of it.  A tremendous, totally in-character, throwaway moment.  I liked it!

*but let me know if I missed something like this thanks to the usual rerun cutdown of a minute here, a scene there.

[sara416]

I've watched this show a billion times, in particular season 4, which is my favorite. I am JUST NOW realizing why Lorelai was nicknamed umlaut at camp. Wow. Take my Master's Degree back please.

[andromeda331]

I so love Rory's meltdown in Lorelai, Lorelai. Its well done and makes so much more sense then Rory stealing a boat because of one bad critique. Lorelai does a good job of cheering her up. I love them discussing celebrities who didn't have success immediately. Plus Lorelai does point out that Rory has had it easy since she's gotten everything she ever wanted. Lane's realizing she can't go on tour with Zach but telling him he can still go and realizing two months isn't that big deal. Of course Lorelai singing first to Rory then to Luke. The one thing I hate is we didn't get to see Gypsy's Pat Benatar. 

[andromeda331]

16 minutes ago, voiceover said:

Yayyyyy!!!  A GG first for me today!

re: "Lorelai? Lorelai?" (the karaoke ep):  I'd seen this in its original airing, and x-hundreds of times as a rerun.  But for whatever bizarro reason, I'd always managed to miss the first ten minutes, so I had never seen the "Luke hat" moment.  I had spun numerous fanfics in my head, all of them showing Luke making the conscious choice to start wearing his blue cap again, and "accidentally/on purpose" shoving the black one behind the dishwasher*.  

But FINALLY, I was home & the TV was on & I was sitting it front of it.  A tremendous, totally in-character, throwaway moment.  I liked it!

*but let me know if I missed something like this thanks to the usual rerun cutdown of a minute here, a scene there.

That's great! That scene really is great.

[scarynikki12]

The subject of Chris came up in Nitpicking and you guys know how I'm always up for bagging on him but my latest dissertation is more suited here. 

I think the original intent for Chris was just to show up in season 1 and then never be heard from again.  So much of that season was building up Max as the short term love interest (with Luke as the long term one).  Chris' episode was very much about how the two only made sense when they were teenagers but don't work as adults.  It's no mistake that Lorelai is suspicious of Chris' intentions and stories the entire episode until the fight at Friday Night Dinner.  She recognizes that part of her that holds on to the nostalgia of when they were kids but she keeps it in check until that fight.  Then Straub calls her a slut and is generally disparaging, which is how he surely behaved when she got pregnant, and Lorelai starts feeling like a teenager again.  She literally says "I feel sixteen" which, again, is no accident.  She still has her emotions in control as she goes to see Richard first and tries to talk to him adult to adult.  And that talk is what sends her insecurities into overdrive and, emotionally, she fully reverts to the teenager who made some dumb choices that include having unprotected sex with Chris.  I just rewatched her scene with Richard to make sure I go the details right and it's horrible.  What a lot of us tend to take away from that scene is the reveal that Emily was so distraught about Lorelai leaving with Rory is that she spent a month in bed, which can make one feel sad for her (though she apparently never went after Lorelai to bring her home which makes me question how sad she really was about losing her daughter), but the things Richard says in this scene makes me feel for Lorelai and sets up why she would go to Chris after a whole episode of having his number. 

In this episode Emily makes a point of seeking out Rory to let her know that she is valued and loved despite the anger and hurt feelings that surround her conception.  She lets Rory know that no one regrets her existence.  Lorelai will reiterate this point later in the episode by telling Rory that the anger and hurt that the Haydens still feel is masking their desire to know their granddaughter.  Both women are making sure that Rory doesn't feel belittled or unwanted in light of the things Straub said.  But no one does this for Lorelai.  I've commented before on how Emily and Richard are failures as parents, not because they didn't provide for Lorelai but because they never once made her feel loved or even wanted.  Emily make sure Rory knows no one regrets her existence but none of the Gilmores had ever done the same for Lorelai. 

And Richard had the opportunity.  Lorelai goes to his office to thank him for defending her against Straub's insults, which should have been a slam dunk parenting moment for Richard, and he fails spectacularly.  His response to Lorelai's "Thank you" is: "Thank me?  For what?"  And she gives him a clear opening to step up the way Emily does with Rory: "For what you said in there.  I'm unbelievably touched and grateful for what you said to him. For defending me like that.  I know it was hard for you because, well, but thank you."  Throughout the series we've seen how hard it is for Lorelai to lay her emotions bare and she's willing to do it here because it meant so much to her to see her father demonstrate how much he cares about her (her view).  But that turns out to be wrong.  While she's thanking him, he makes an "oh brother" kind of expression and turns his head away.  Then he responds, not by making her feel valued like Emily does with Rory, or even just a "you're welcome" as she leaves his office, but by asking her why she thinks he did it.  Lorelai still gives him an opportunity to ace this parenting moment by responding that she thinks he was feeling protective.  He still fails.  "You don't need to be protected Lorelai.  You've made it very clear that you can look after yourself and that you need nothing from anyone.  A member of my family was being attacked.  The very Gilmore name was being attacked.  I will not stand for that.  Not under any circumstances."  The reason he did it was because the Gilmore name was being attacked.  Not because Lorelai was being attacked but because a Gilmore was.  He was more concerned about family honor than his own daughter.  Lorelai sees it's time to leave so she tries to salvage the moment by saying his reason doesn't really matter but Richard then goes for blood.  "Yes it does matter why I did it!  It matters greatly!  Lorelai what are you going to take away from this?  That everything that happened in the past is suddenly fine because I defended you?" Lorelai: "N-no"  Richard: "That the hell that you've put your mother and me through for the past sixteen years is suddenly washed away?  Well it's not."  It's worth noting that Lorelai gets a wide eyed look of horror at that last bit.  Lorelai: "We've all been through hell, Dad." Richard: "I had to tell my friends, my colleagues, that my only daughter, the brightest in her class, was pregnant and was leaving school." Lorelai: "That must have been devastating."  Richard: " And then you run away, you treat us as lepers.  Your mother couldn't get out of bed for a month, did you know that? Did you?"  Lorelai: "No."  Richard: "We did nothing to deserve that.  Nothing to earn that."  It's at this moment that I think Lorelai is 100% in emotional teenager mode and it's reflected in her responses, the first of which is a call back to her fight with Emily the morning after Rory's dance: "I get it.  I'm horrible.  So, why don't you disown me and adopt Christopher.  You love him."  If that isn't a woman who has temporarily reverted to the teenager she once was I don't know what is.  In response to this Richard says he wanted to kill Chris for getting her pregnant and then decides to do the Gilmore Freebird and goes into the spiel about how they should have gotten married, that it was the right thing to do, that Chris was willing to do the right thing, blah blah blah (I'd quote it all but we all know how that song goes and I got tired of typing).  Lorelai does ask him if what she wanted mattered to him at all and he basically says no because what Lorelai wanted (not getting married) wasn't what he considered right.  Richard wanted to kill Chris for getting Lorelai pregnant but he agreed to marry Lorelai (the right thing) so Richard forgave him and now loves him.  Lorelai refused to marry Chris (the wrong thing) so Richard has never forgiven her and doesn't love her.  At least that's what Lorelai hears, and what I certainly hear, and that compounds Lorelai feeling sixteen again. 

Quick aside: by series end I felt that Richard and Emily flat out hated Lorelai and only put up with her presence because they knew Rory wanted her at FND.  Early series Richard and Emily did have moments of affection for Lorelai, and I was willing to believe that they did love her deep, deep down even with horrible moments like Richard here and Emily after the dance.  Just the fact that they seemed to have unconsciously learned from their mistakes with Lorelai in the way they treated Rory (spending time with her, encouraging her interests, finding common ground, listening to what she says, showing her affection, being proud of her accomplishments and who she is, etc) had me thinking this. It was more balanced and had me thinking the hurt and anger would eventually be forgiven and put aside and all three would come out in a genuinely good place.  Instead I think the show went too far in the arguments and fights so moments like Richard praising Lorelai in the series finale, Emily trying to trick her into taking money so they can still spend time with her, and Lorelai's tearful conversation with Emily where she tells that story about Richard, which are nice without any context, fall completely flat as I think they weren't earned even a little. 

So, since Lorelai's feeling fully like a teenager after Richard's comments, she doesn't do the responsible thing and seek out Rory to make sure she's ok, but seeks out Chris (who was the only one who ever made her feel valued growing up) to drink tequila and hook up on the balcony.  She's got most of her senses back as soon as they're finished, as she can barely look at him, and she talks to Rory when they get home, but she's not fully back until the morning when she wakes up horrified at breaking her promise to Luke.  Her scene in the kitchen with Chris shows that she's back to where she was at the start of the episode as she not only turns down his proposal (which I would argue shows that Chris was still feeling sixteen himself) but points out that he doesn't understand what family is and calls him on lying about his business/financial situation and asking Rory to lie to her about it.  She later tells Rory that Chris may think he wants to marry Lorelai and finally have a family but that he's not ready.  I think Season 1 Lorelai also understood that Chris was unlikely to ever be ready but she didn't tell Rory that, because she didn't want to hurt her.  That's why I do believe that episode was originally the only time we were to meet Chris. 

But the Ps loved Sutcliffe and that was all that was needed to reverse that decision.  We've seen how they are with actors they like (glares at Anna) and the fact that there were viewers who found the character appealing just made it easier for them to bring him back.  The Ps then ignored how they wrote Lorelai in season 1 in an effort to make those appearances work. Until the revival, that is, when they demonstrated that he and Lorelai literally no longer had anything to do with one another and Rory now was the one who saw the truth about him like Lorelai back in season 1.  The Ps made the Chris part of the story right in the end but they hurt that foundation by bringing him back just because they liked Sutcliffe. 

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

The subject of Chris came up in Nitpicking and you guys know how I'm always up for bagging on him but my latest dissertation is more suited here. 

I think the original intent for Chris was just to show up in season 1 and then never be heard from again.  So much of that season was building up Max as the short term love interest (with Luke as the long term one).  Chris' episode was very much about how the two only made sense when they were teenagers but don't work as adults.  It's no mistake that Lorelai is suspicious of Chris' intentions and stories the entire episode until the fight at Friday Night Dinner.  She recognizes that part of her that holds on to the nostalgia of when they were kids but she keeps it in check until that fight.  Then Straub calls her a slut and is generally disparaging, which is how he surely behaved when she got pregnant, and Lorelai starts feeling like a teenager again.  She literally says "I feel sixteen" which, again, is no accident.  She still has her emotions in control as she goes to see Richard first and tries to talk to him adult to adult.  And that talk is what sends her insecurities into overdrive and, emotionally, she fully reverts to the teenager who made some dumb choices that include having unprotected sex with Chris.  I just rewatched her scene with Richard to make sure I go the details right and it's horrible.  What a lot of us tend to take away from that scene is the reveal that Emily was so distraught about Lorelai leaving with Rory is that she spent a month in bed, which can make one feel sad for her (though she apparently never went after Lorelai to bring her home which makes me question how sad she really was about losing her daughter), but the things Richard says in this scene makes me feel for Lorelai and sets up why she would go to Chris after a whole episode of having his number. 

In this episode Emily makes a point of seeking out Rory to let her know that she is valued and loved despite the anger and hurt feelings that surround her conception.  She lets Rory know that no one regrets her existence.  Lorelai will reiterate this point later in the episode by telling Rory that the anger and hurt that the Haydens still feel is masking their desire to know their granddaughter.  Both women are making sure that Rory doesn't feel belittled or unwanted in light of the things Straub said.  But no one does this for Lorelai.  I've commented before on how Emily and Richard are failures as parents, not because they didn't provide for Lorelai but because they never once made her feel loved or even wanted.  Emily make sure Rory knows no one regrets her existence but none of the Gilmores had ever done the same for Lorelai. 

And Richard had the opportunity.  Lorelai goes to his office to thank him for defending her against Straub's insults, which should have been a slam dunk parenting moment for Richard, and he fails spectacularly.  His response to Lorelai's "Thank you" is: "Thank me?  For what?"  And she gives him a clear opening to step up the way Emily does with Rory: "For what you said in there.  I'm unbelievably touched and grateful for what you said to him. For defending me like that.  I know it was hard for you because, well, but thank you."  Throughout the series we've seen how hard it is for Lorelai to lay her emotions bare and she's willing to do it here because it meant so much to her to see her father demonstrate how much he cares about her (her view).  But that turns out to be wrong.  While she's thanking him, he makes an "oh brother" kind of expression and turns his head away.  Then he responds, not by making her feel valued like Emily does with Rory, or even just a "you're welcome" as she leaves his office, but by asking her why she thinks he did it.  Lorelai still gives him an opportunity to ace this parenting moment by responding that she thinks he was feeling protective.  He still fails.  "You don't need to be protected Lorelai.  You've made it very clear that you can look after yourself and that you need nothing from anyone.  A member of my family was being attacked.  The very Gilmore name was being attacked.  I will not stand for that.  Not under any circumstances."  The reason he did it was because the Gilmore name was being attacked.  Not because Lorelai was being attacked but because a Gilmore was.  He was more concerned about family honor than his own daughter.  Lorelai sees it's time to leave so she tries to salvage the moment by saying his reason doesn't really matter but Richard then goes for blood.  "Yes it does matter why I did it!  It matters greatly!  Lorelai what are you going to take away from this?  That everything that happened in the past is suddenly fine because I defended you?" Lorelai: "N-no"  Richard: "That the hell that you've put your mother and me through for the past sixteen years is suddenly washed away?  Well it's not."  It's worth noting that Lorelai gets a wide eyed look of horror at that last bit.  Lorelai: "We've all been through hell, Dad." Richard: "I had to tell my friends, my colleagues, that my only daughter, the brightest in her class, was pregnant and was leaving school." Lorelai: "That must have been devastating."  Richard: " And then you run away, you treat us as lepers.  Your mother couldn't get out of bed for a month, did you know that? Did you?"  Lorelai: "No."  Richard: "We did nothing to deserve that.  Nothing to earn that."  It's at this moment that I think Lorelai is 100% in emotional teenager mode and it's reflected in her responses, the first of which is a call back to her fight with Emily the morning after Rory's dance: "I get it.  I'm horrible.  So, why don't you disown me and adopt Christopher.  You love him."  If that isn't a woman who has temporarily reverted to the teenager she once was I don't know what is.  In response to this Richard says he wanted to kill Chris for getting her pregnant and then decides to do the Gilmore Freebird and goes into the spiel about how they should have gotten married, that it was the right thing to do, that Chris was willing to do the right thing, blah blah blah (I'd quote it all but we all know how that song goes and I got tired of typing).  Lorelai does ask him if what she wanted mattered to him at all and he basically says no because what Lorelai wanted (not getting married) wasn't what he considered right.  Richard wanted to kill Chris for getting Lorelai pregnant but he agreed to marry Lorelai (the right thing) so Richard forgave him and now loves him.  Lorelai refused to marry Chris (the wrong thing) so Richard has never forgiven her and doesn't love her.  At least that's what Lorelai hears, and what I certainly hear, and that compounds Lorelai feeling sixteen again. 

Quick aside: by series end I felt that Richard and Emily flat out hated Lorelai and only put up with her presence because they knew Rory wanted her at FND.  Early series Richard and Emily did have moments of affection for Lorelai, and I was willing to believe that they did love her deep, deep down even with horrible moments like Richard here and Emily after the dance.  Just the fact that they seemed to have unconsciously learned from their mistakes with Lorelai in the way they treated Rory (spending time with her, encouraging her interests, finding common ground, listening to what she says, showing her affection, being proud of her accomplishments and who she is, etc) had me thinking this. It was more balanced and had me thinking the hurt and anger would eventually be forgiven and put aside and all three would come out in a genuinely good place.  Instead I think the show went too far in the arguments and fights so moments like Richard praising Lorelai in the series finale, Emily trying to trick her into taking money so they can still spend time with her, and Lorelai's tearful conversation with Emily where she tells that story about Richard, which are nice without any context, fall completely flat as I think they weren't earned even a little. 

So, since Lorelai's feeling fully like a teenager after Richard's comments, she doesn't do the responsible thing and seek out Rory to make sure she's ok, but seeks out Chris (who was the only one who ever made her feel valued growing up) to drink tequila and hook up on the balcony.  She's got most of her senses back as soon as they're finished, as she can barely look at him, and she talks to Rory when they get home, but she's not fully back until the morning when she wakes up horrified at breaking her promise to Luke.  Her scene in the kitchen with Chris shows that she's back to where she was at the start of the episode as she not only turns down his proposal (which I would argue shows that Chris was still feeling sixteen himself) but points out that he doesn't understand what family is and calls him on lying about his business/financial situation and asking Rory to lie to her about it.  She later tells Rory that Chris may think he wants to marry Lorelai and finally have a family but that he's not ready.  I think Season 1 Lorelai also understood that Chris was unlikely to ever be ready but she didn't tell Rory that, because she didn't want to hurt her.  That's why I do believe that episode was originally the only time we were to meet Chris. 

But the Ps loved Sutcliffe and that was all that was needed to reverse that decision.  We've seen how they are with actors they like (glares at Anna) and the fact that there were viewers who found the character appealing just made it easier for them to bring him back.  The Ps then ignored how they wrote Lorelai in season 1 in an effort to make those appearances work. Until the revival, that is, when they demonstrated that he and Lorelai literally no longer had anything to do with one another and Rory now was the one who saw the truth about him like Lorelai back in season 1.  The Ps made the Chris part of the story right in the end but they hurt that foundation by bringing him back just because they liked Sutcliffe. 

Well said!

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

The subject of Chris came up in Nitpicking and you guys know how I'm always up for bagging on him but my latest dissertation is more suited here. 

I think the original intent for Chris was just to show up in season 1 and then never be heard from again.  So much of that season was building up Max as the short term love interest (with Luke as the long term one).  Chris' episode was very much about how the two only made sense when they were teenagers but don't work as adults.  It's no mistake that Lorelai is suspicious of Chris' intentions and stories the entire episode until the fight at Friday Night Dinner.  She recognizes that part of her that holds on to the nostalgia of when they were kids but she keeps it in check until that fight.  Then Straub calls her a slut and is generally disparaging, which is how he surely behaved when she got pregnant, and Lorelai starts feeling like a teenager again.  She literally says "I feel sixteen" which, again, is no accident.  She still has her emotions in control as she goes to see Richard first and tries to talk to him adult to adult.  And that talk is what sends her insecurities into overdrive and, emotionally, she fully reverts to the teenager who made some dumb choices that include having unprotected sex with Chris.  I just rewatched her scene with Richard to make sure I go the details right and it's horrible.  What a lot of us tend to take away from that scene is the reveal that Emily was so distraught about Lorelai leaving with Rory is that she spent a month in bed, which can make one feel sad for her (though she apparently never went after Lorelai to bring her home which makes me question how sad she really was about losing her daughter), but the things Richard says in this scene makes me feel for Lorelai and sets up why she would go to Chris after a whole episode of having his number. 

In this episode Emily makes a point of seeking out Rory to let her know that she is valued and loved despite the anger and hurt feelings that surround her conception.  She lets Rory know that no one regrets her existence.  Lorelai will reiterate this point later in the episode by telling Rory that the anger and hurt that the Haydens still feel is masking their desire to know their granddaughter.  Both women are making sure that Rory doesn't feel belittled or unwanted in light of the things Straub said.  But no one does this for Lorelai.  I've commented before on how Emily and Richard are failures as parents, not because they didn't provide for Lorelai but because they never once made her feel loved or even wanted.  Emily make sure Rory knows no one regrets her existence but none of the Gilmores had ever done the same for Lorelai. 

And Richard had the opportunity.  Lorelai goes to his office to thank him for defending her against Straub's insults, which should have been a slam dunk parenting moment for Richard, and he fails spectacularly.  His response to Lorelai's "Thank you" is: "Thank me?  For what?"  And she gives him a clear opening to step up the way Emily does with Rory: "For what you said in there.  I'm unbelievably touched and grateful for what you said to him. For defending me like that.  I know it was hard for you because, well, but thank you."  Throughout the series we've seen how hard it is for Lorelai to lay her emotions bare and she's willing to do it here because it meant so much to her to see her father demonstrate how much he cares about her (her view).  But that turns out to be wrong.  While she's thanking him, he makes an "oh brother" kind of expression and turns his head away.  Then he responds, not by making her feel valued like Emily does with Rory, or even just a "you're welcome" as she leaves his office, but by asking her why she thinks he did it.  Lorelai still gives him an opportunity to ace this parenting moment by responding that she thinks he was feeling protective.  He still fails.  "You don't need to be protected Lorelai.  You've made it very clear that you can look after yourself and that you need nothing from anyone.  A member of my family was being attacked.  The very Gilmore name was being attacked.  I will not stand for that.  Not under any circumstances."  The reason he did it was because the Gilmore name was being attacked.  Not because Lorelai was being attacked but because a Gilmore was.  He was more concerned about family honor than his own daughter.  Lorelai sees it's time to leave so she tries to salvage the moment by saying his reason doesn't really matter but Richard then goes for blood.  "Yes it does matter why I did it!  It matters greatly!  Lorelai what are you going to take away from this?  That everything that happened in the past is suddenly fine because I defended you?" Lorelai: "N-no"  Richard: "That the hell that you've put your mother and me through for the past sixteen years is suddenly washed away?  Well it's not."  It's worth noting that Lorelai gets a wide eyed look of horror at that last bit.  Lorelai: "We've all been through hell, Dad." Richard: "I had to tell my friends, my colleagues, that my only daughter, the brightest in her class, was pregnant and was leaving school." Lorelai: "That must have been devastating."  Richard: " And then you run away, you treat us as lepers.  Your mother couldn't get out of bed for a month, did you know that? Did you?"  Lorelai: "No."  Richard: "We did nothing to deserve that.  Nothing to earn that."  It's at this moment that I think Lorelai is 100% in emotional teenager mode and it's reflected in her responses, the first of which is a call back to her fight with Emily the morning after Rory's dance: "I get it.  I'm horrible.  So, why don't you disown me and adopt Christopher.  You love him."  If that isn't a woman who has temporarily reverted to the teenager she once was I don't know what is.  In response to this Richard says he wanted to kill Chris for getting her pregnant and then decides to do the Gilmore Freebird and goes into the spiel about how they should have gotten married, that it was the right thing to do, that Chris was willing to do the right thing, blah blah blah (I'd quote it all but we all know how that song goes and I got tired of typing).  Lorelai does ask him if what she wanted mattered to him at all and he basically says no because what Lorelai wanted (not getting married) wasn't what he considered right.  Richard wanted to kill Chris for getting Lorelai pregnant but he agreed to marry Lorelai (the right thing) so Richard forgave him and now loves him.  Lorelai refused to marry Chris (the wrong thing) so Richard has never forgiven her and doesn't love her.  At least that's what Lorelai hears, and what I certainly hear, and that compounds Lorelai feeling sixteen again. 

Quick aside: by series end I felt that Richard and Emily flat out hated Lorelai and only put up with her presence because they knew Rory wanted her at FND.  Early series Richard and Emily did have moments of affection for Lorelai, and I was willing to believe that they did love her deep, deep down even with horrible moments like Richard here and Emily after the dance.  Just the fact that they seemed to have unconsciously learned from their mistakes with Lorelai in the way they treated Rory (spending time with her, encouraging her interests, finding common ground, listening to what she says, showing her affection, being proud of her accomplishments and who she is, etc) had me thinking this. It was more balanced and had me thinking the hurt and anger would eventually be forgiven and put aside and all three would come out in a genuinely good place.  Instead I think the show went too far in the arguments and fights so moments like Richard praising Lorelai in the series finale, Emily trying to trick her into taking money so they can still spend time with her, and Lorelai's tearful conversation with Emily where she tells that story about Richard, which are nice without any context, fall completely flat as I think they weren't earned even a little. 

So, since Lorelai's feeling fully like a teenager after Richard's comments, she doesn't do the responsible thing and seek out Rory to make sure she's ok, but seeks out Chris (who was the only one who ever made her feel valued growing up) to drink tequila and hook up on the balcony.  She's got most of her senses back as soon as they're finished, as she can barely look at him, and she talks to Rory when they get home, but she's not fully back until the morning when she wakes up horrified at breaking her promise to Luke.  Her scene in the kitchen with Chris shows that she's back to where she was at the start of the episode as she not only turns down his proposal (which I would argue shows that Chris was still feeling sixteen himself) but points out that he doesn't understand what family is and calls him on lying about his business/financial situation and asking Rory to lie to her about it.  She later tells Rory that Chris may think he wants to marry Lorelai and finally have a family but that he's not ready.  I think Season 1 Lorelai also understood that Chris was unlikely to ever be ready but she didn't tell Rory that, because she didn't want to hurt her.  That's why I do believe that episode was originally the only time we were to meet Chris. 

But the Ps loved Sutcliffe and that was all that was needed to reverse that decision.  We've seen how they are with actors they like (glares at Anna) and the fact that there were viewers who found the character appealing just made it easier for them to bring him back.  The Ps then ignored how they wrote Lorelai in season 1 in an effort to make those appearances work. Until the revival, that is, when they demonstrated that he and Lorelai literally no longer had anything to do with one another and Rory now was the one who saw the truth about him like Lorelai back in season 1.  The Ps made the Chris part of the story right in the end but they hurt that foundation by bringing him back just because they liked Sutcliffe. 

I agree with you. I've always thought Emily and Richard were bad parents. They treated Lorelai like crap. Thinking so highly of Christopher because he agreed to the plan but don't care that he's done nothing to raise and support the grandfather they adore. I hated Richard saying all that to Lorelai. That he didn't defend her because she's his daughter but his last name was insulted. Or in the pilot when he remarks that Christopher has great business sense despite Christopher rarely being employed and Lorelai taking business classes. They blame Lorelai for everything. When Lorelai goes off on Emily after Rory's birthday party about how controlling Emily was. I believe it. Emily was so cold and controlling. I can easily image her the same while raise Lorelai. Emily goes off on Lorelai after seeing the shed but when Lorelai tries to answer Emily doesn't want to hear it. She'd rather be mad and blame Lorelai then really hear why Lorelai was so unhappy. Richard and Emily if they loved Lorelai it was conditional Emily wanted Lorelai to be what Emily wanted her to be. It never mattered what Lorelai wanted. Even grown and adult all Emily cares about is getting Lorelai and Christopher together, even after everything he's done, even though she says he's weak, even though Lorelai was happy with Luke, none of that matters. Just that he had the right breeding and what Emily wanted. Even in the horrible revival, Emily and Lorelai go to therapy, which the two really need. But of course Emily won't do anything and quits because Lorelai won't change. God forbid Emily should have to do anything or any real work to have a relationship with her daughter. What Richard said in the finale was nice but it was short and really too late. They had no problem complimenting Rory endlessly but not the person who raised the granddaughter they loved. I think it was probably meant to be a joke but in the vow renewal Lorelai tells Rory, they love her more the Lorelai. Honestly, yes they did. It was obvious throughout the series. That's sad. But I also wonder would they have loved Rory so much if she had been different? If she wasn't interested in books like Richard was and didn't go along with the DAR, and stuff? 

[peacheslatour]

Quote

 if they loved Lorelai it was conditional 

You have smitten the nail upon it's crux. This is really the deep core of Richard and especially Emily. Everything was a negotiation. Emily always had to feel she had "won". I can't imagine ever feeling that way towards my child.

[Taryn74]

And how many weeks did Lorelai freeze Rory out when Rory didn't follow "the plan"?  If Emily & Richard's love for Lorelai was conditional, then I could argue so was Lorelai's love for Rory.

Were any of them perfect parents?  No.  Did their actions toward their children come from a place of genuinely loving them and wanting what was best for them?  I believe so, yes.

[Kohola3]

16 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

And how many weeks did Lorelai freeze Rory out when Rory didn't follow "the plan"? 

Well, that was mutual freezing.   Rory moved out, blew off her mother.

[Taryn74]

2 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

Well, that was mutual freezing.   Rory moved out, blew off her mother.

Yes, she did.  And Lorelai ran away from her parents' home with a one-year-old daughter before she was even legally an adult, and cut off all contact with them except for the barest of minimums for sixteen years.   Until she needed tens of thousands of their restrictive, controlling, life-sucking dollars for Rory's schooling.  And round and round we go.

None of them are perfect, and none of them are monsters.  That's all I'm saying.

[Guest]

I think we saw the most well-rounded character in Lorelai, but I also think that's because we saw more facets to her life. Because in a lot of ways, she really sucked.  But in a lot of ways, she was really great.  However, she was fairly "my way or the highway" and I do think she's to blame for a lot of her issues with Emily and Richard.  And I think a lot of their issues go back to how deeply she hurt them when she left overall supportive parents without a word.  

Overall, I feel like they had to have her move out like she did for the set-up of the show, but had they had E&R do something that truly justified her actions, the audience would have hated Emily and Richard.  But because she was the lead in the show, they also couldn't say she was the villain in the teenage relationship. 

[peacheslatour]

32 minutes ago, deaja said:

I think we saw the most well-rounded character in Lorelai, but I also think that's because we saw more facets to her life. Because in a lot of ways, she really sucked.  But in a lot of ways, she was really great.  However, she was fairly "my way or the highway" and I do think she's to blame for a lot of her issues with Emily and Richard.  And I think a lot of their issues go back to how deeply she hurt them when she left overall supportive parents without a word.  

Overall, I feel like they had to have her move out like she did for the set-up of the show, but had they had E&R do something that truly justified her actions, the audience would have hated Emily and Richard.  But because she was the lead in the show, they also couldn't say she was the villain in the teenage relationship. 

I think the thing that got to Lorelai the most was that her mother didn't bother to know her. She didn't care about Lorelai unless she was the perfect little white dress, white glove wearing social climbing automaton that did everything her mother told her to do and think the way her mother wanted her to think, which is to say not at all. Lorelai strikes me as a kid who was a tomboy and would have been happier climbing trees and playing with the boys. Maybe if they bought her the horse she so obviously always wanted things would have been different.

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

I think the thing that got to Lorelai the most was that her mother didn't bother to know her. She didn't care about Lorelai unless she was the perfect little white dress, white glove wearing social climbing automaton that did everything her mother told her to do and think the way her mother wanted her to think, which is to say not at all. Lorelai strikes me as a kid who was a tomboy and would have been happier climbing trees and playing with the boys. Maybe if they bought her the horse she so obviously always wanted things would have been different.

I think that's probably it. Emily never bothered to get to know Lorelai and didn't really care about what Lorelai wanted or needed. Emily and Richard both basically wanted the daughter Lorelai described in Forgiveness and Stuff. To wear white dresses, go to cotillion and have the same life they had. That's not the daughter they got and didn't know what to do with it. Even after she's grown and running a successful inn they still can't comprehend that Lorelai doesn't want their live. Lorelai talks about Emily trying to control her and the freeze her out. I can see that happening every time Lorelai messed up. We see Emily do that to Rory after she blew up at her birthday party. Yes, Emily thought everything she was doing was right but it never once occurred to ask Rory about who she wanted to invite to her birthday party. When Rory messes up Emily turns cold, she won't listen to Rory's apologize or invite to Rory's other party. Rory meant her apology. But all Emily really card about was how she was hurt and doesn't stop to think maybe she made a mistake. Or think that maybe Rory just made a mistake. She changes and goes to the second party. But she's very harsh on mistakes, and when people don't do what she wants them to do. That blow up after Rory's Dance does Emily regret anything she said to Lorelai? No, of course not, she freezes out Lorelai and disinvites her to the Christmas party because she's hurt by what Lorelai said and mad at how Lorelai talked to her. It doesn't matter how Emily talked to Lorelai. To Emily, Emily never messes up, makes mistakes or apologizes for anything because Emily doesn't do anything wrong.

The worse part of Lorelai-Emily-Richard dynamic is we never get to see any of it resolved. We know the writers can do it. We see Lane and Mrs. Kim end up having a really great relationship even though they are very different. But they just keep going round and round with Lorelai and her parents. 

In the early seasons we at least saw signs that all three did care about each other. Emily's freak out when Trix offers Lorelai money from Rory's trust fund to pay for Chilton. Emily truly believes that if Lorelai's not indebted to them in some way, she'll be gone and her telling Richard he was going to apologize to Dean because she wants Rory to tell them when she's getting married. But other times she's controlling, like never letting go of Christopher and Lorelai marrying so it'll be respectable. Why won't she let that go? Even when things are going well between her and Lorelai. She'd won't let it go even if it could risk relationship with her daughter. 

All four Gilmores have a problem of freezing each other out when one messes up or doesn't do what they want them to do. As much as I agree with Lorelai when she's trying to convince Rory from dropping of Yale when she is making a stupid decision. But she freezes her out which is disappointing. Lorelai knows exactly how that feels and its terrible that she turns around and does it to her own daughter. Like when she's asking Richard how his plan was going in Magic To Do episode. He clearly doesn't have one and neither does Lorelai. Her plan is to not talk to Rory isn't a plan. Or when he realizes he made a mistake in letting Rory move in and quit Yale. Lorelai can't let that go and talk to him about what they should do. Rory does that too. Usually to her mom when Rory makes a big dumb decision her mother disagrees with from not wanting to go Chilton after meeting Dean, sleeping with a married Dean and quitting Yale. None of them ever really stop doing that or work it out or try to stop doing that.

Edited April 11, 2019 by andromeda331

[marineg]

@andromeda331 I agree with all you said. And maybe to "answer" your question about Emily letting go of the idea of Lorelai and Chris marrying, I believe it was set up by the writers so that there is this constant parental pressure from E & R towards Lorelai to get married, and get married to Chris. They wanted to have the most Sutcliffe their could, and therefore point the story towards that marriage. And therefore they have this idea repeated again and again like a bad refrain to Lorelai, which ends up coming true.

[scarynikki12]

27 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

The worse part of Lorelai-Emily-Richard dynamic is we never get to see any of it resolved. We know the writers can do it. We see Lane and Mrs. Kim end up having a really great relationship even though they are very different. But they just keep going round and round with Lorelai and her parents. 

Lorelai going to bat for Lane, Mrs. Kim, and their relationship is the key component that allowed them to avoid becoming the Gilmores 2.0.  I love that Lorelai didn't hesitate to give Lane and Mrs. Kim some perspective when the situation called for it because she didn't want her experience to be theirs.  Lane listened to Lorelai because she knew Lorelai had her back and could be trusted but I love that Mrs. Kim did as well.  Lorelai got through to Mrs. Kim about the double date, and later about the band and apartment, in a way that no one ever did for her. 

Which reiterates one of my points in my previous post: Lorelai had no support growing up.  I don't mean physical support, like clothes, a bedroom, food, etc., but emotional support.  She had none.  Her parents treated her like a burden, Chris was a coward to didn't stand up for her and was willing to give up what he wanted and get married just because Richard decided they should, and there's zero indication that she had any close friends since none of her classmates were said to give her any support after she got pregnant.  Emily and Richard loved telling Lorelai about the shame she brought upon the family for getting pregnant and not marrying Chris but there's no real reason to think they were shunned by their neighbors, friends, or society in general.  Lorelai herself seemed to get the lion's share of the shunning since she dropped out of school entirely, lost whatever friends she had, and was badgered about getting pregnant and not getting married for the next twenty years.  Meanwhile neither Emily nor Richard was shown to have to make any significant changes to their lives in light of this "scandal".  Richard kept his job, Emily kept her clubs, and they maintained their standing in Hartford society.  The worst thing they experienced was when Lorelai ran away from home but even that they still turned around on her.  I've said this before but they didn't worry about if Lorelai and Rory were safe, or realize their failures as parents to drive Lorelai to make such a drastic decision.  They were only concerned with how her leaving made them look.  Yes, Richard claims that Emily was so distraught that she couldn't get out of bed for a month.  I'm sure she was upset as Emily doesn't handle change well, though I doubt it was that bad, if only because Emily never used it against Lorelai ("I couldn't leave the house for a month after you left!  I was so ashamed!" or something along those lines).  But there's no mention of calling the police, or a private investigator, or anyone, to find Lorelai so they could bring her home.  Once they learn of Lorelai's location, and that she and Rory are fine, they don't ask her to come home, or try to talk things out, or to have a relationship at all.  It only occurs to Emily to try once Lorelai needs help.  Yes, since Lorelai did want a relationship with her parents in spite of how she grew up, she could have made the first move.  But she had no reason to think they'd be receptive.  They'd never given her any reason to think so.  That's why she couldn't wrap her head around them bonding with Rory, listening to Rory, and showing love, affection, and pride in Rory when it all began. 

I do agree that the blame is more evenly dispersed between Lorelai and her parents once they start spending regular time together but I place all of the blame pre-Stars Hollow on Emily and Richard.  They were the parents.  If they loved Lorelai, were proud of her, and happy she was their daughter, then it was their job to make sure she knew.  It wasn't up to Lorelai to assume these things were true.  They never did and that's on them. 

Going back to them harping on how Lorelai is a huge failure for not marrying Chris, I would have liked to see an alternate reality episode where Lorelai gets pregnant by a boy from a low-income family.  Cause I guarantee that marriage wouldn't have ever crossed the Gilmores' minds.  They pushed marriage, and then later felt shame that it didn't happen, because Lorelai got pregnant by Chris Hayden.  If he'd been Chris Smith, who works part time after school at a video store after attending public school, with parents who struggle to make ends meet, then they'd be horrified.  They may have remained consistent in not forcing Lorelai to get an abortion or give Rory up for adoption, but they certainly wouldn't have been pushing marriage.  Emily's "when you get pregnant you get married" would never have been uttered in reference to Chris Smith.  Richard may have still suggested Chris Smith get a job at his company, in an effort to put him on a path to his definition of respectability (like he tried to do with Luke), but that would have been the most he'd have done.  Then Lorelai getting pregnant by a poor boy would have been what they held over her head for the next twenty years.  Chris Hayden, on the other hand, came from a rich family of commensurate social standing, and would have been an asset to the Gilmores.  The Ps no doubt would have screwed it up so it's a good thing they never went there but I'm still curious. 

[peacheslatour]

Quote

If he'd been Chris Smith, who works part time after school at a video store after attending public school, with parents who struggle to make ends meet, then they'd be horrified.  They may have remained consistent in not forcing Lorelai to get an abortion or give Rory up for adoption, but they certainly wouldn't have been pushing marriage.  Emily's "when you get pregnant you get married" would never have been uttered in reference to Chris Smith.

Excellent point.

[Guest]

59 minutes ago, scarynikki12 said:

Once they learn of Lorelai's location, and that she and Rory are fine, they don't ask her to come home, or try to talk things out, or to have a relationship at all. 

I disagree. We know they visited them at the inn, and Lorelai said in an episode that she refused their invitation to come over (for some holiday) soon after they found her, and she always wonders if their relationship would have been different if she hadn’t done that.

I think they extended what they thought were several olive branches but their pride and stubbornness wasn’t going to allow it to keep going and Lorelai’s stubbornness wasn’t going to allow her to reach out at that point either.

[clack]

Emily and Richard had such hopes and plans -- and expectations-- for their intelligent, beautiful daughter, their only child. The finest schools, an appropriate marriage. And what they got was Lorelai pregnant at 15, a mother at 16, and a runaway at 17.

She took infant Rory away from Rory's grandparents so that Lorelai could find work -- as a maid. Hard to imagine a more devastating rejection of themselves and of their values. Emily and Richard must have been traumatized.

The upshot was that Emily never got over her hurt and her anger at Lorelai, and Richard just withdrew.

Tempting to fall back on stereotypes of the snooty rich, but would any well-to-do parent -- would ASP, if she had a daughter -- welcome such a scenario?

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, clack said:

She took infant Rory away from Rory's grandparents so that Lorelai could find work -- as a maid. Hard to imagine a more devastating rejection of themselves and of their values. Emily and Richard must have been traumatized.

Maybe that’s why Emily was so mean to maids- she was projecting! 😂😂😂

[andromeda331]

2 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

Lorelai going to bat for Lane, Mrs. Kim, and their relationship is the key component that allowed them to avoid becoming the Gilmores 2.0.  I love that Lorelai didn't hesitate to give Lane and Mrs. Kim some perspective when the situation called for it because she didn't want her experience to be theirs.  Lane listened to Lorelai because she knew Lorelai had her back and could be trusted but I love that Mrs. Kim did as well.  Lorelai got through to Mrs. Kim about the double date, and later about the band and apartment, in a way that no one ever did for her. 

Which reiterates one of my points in my previous post: Lorelai had no support growing up.  I don't mean physical support, like clothes, a bedroom, food, etc., but emotional support.  She had none.  Her parents treated her like a burden, Chris was a coward to didn't stand up for her and was willing to give up what he wanted and get married just because Richard decided they should, and there's zero indication that she had any close friends since none of her classmates were said to give her any support after she got pregnant.  Emily and Richard loved telling Lorelai about the shame she brought upon the family for getting pregnant and not marrying Chris but there's no real reason to think they were shunned by their neighbors, friends, or society in general.  Lorelai herself seemed to get the lion's share of the shunning since she dropped out of school entirely, lost whatever friends she had, and was badgered about getting pregnant and not getting married for the next twenty years.  Meanwhile neither Emily nor Richard was shown to have to make any significant changes to their lives in light of this "scandal".  Richard kept his job, Emily kept her clubs, and they maintained their standing in Hartford society.  The worst thing they experienced was when Lorelai ran away from home but even that they still turned around on her.  I've said this before but they didn't worry about if Lorelai and Rory were safe, or realize their failures as parents to drive Lorelai to make such a drastic decision.  They were only concerned with how her leaving made them look.  Yes, Richard claims that Emily was so distraught that she couldn't get out of bed for a month.  I'm sure she was upset as Emily doesn't handle change well, though I doubt it was that bad, if only because Emily never used it against Lorelai ("I couldn't leave the house for a month after you left!  I was so ashamed!" or something along those lines).  But there's no mention of calling the police, or a private investigator, or anyone, to find Lorelai so they could bring her home.  Once they learn of Lorelai's location, and that she and Rory are fine, they don't ask her to come home, or try to talk things out, or to have a relationship at all.  It only occurs to Emily to try once Lorelai needs help.  Yes, since Lorelai did want a relationship with her parents in spite of how she grew up, she could have made the first move.  But she had no reason to think they'd be receptive.  They'd never given her any reason to think so.  That's why she couldn't wrap her head around them bonding with Rory, listening to Rory, and showing love, affection, and pride in Rory when it all began. 

I do agree that the blame is more evenly dispersed between Lorelai and her parents once they start spending regular time together but I place all of the blame pre-Stars Hollow on Emily and Richard.  They were the parents.  If they loved Lorelai, were proud of her, and happy she was their daughter, then it was their job to make sure she knew.  It wasn't up to Lorelai to assume these things were true.  They never did and that's on them. 

Going back to them harping on how Lorelai is a huge failure for not marrying Chris, I would have liked to see an alternate reality episode where Lorelai gets pregnant by a boy from a low-income family.  Cause I guarantee that marriage wouldn't have ever crossed the Gilmores' minds.  They pushed marriage, and then later felt shame that it didn't happen, because Lorelai got pregnant by Chris Hayden.  If he'd been Chris Smith, who works part time after school at a video store after attending public school, with parents who struggle to make ends meet, then they'd be horrified.  They may have remained consistent in not forcing Lorelai to get an abortion or give Rory up for adoption, but they certainly wouldn't have been pushing marriage.  Emily's "when you get pregnant you get married" would never have been uttered in reference to Chris Smith.  Richard may have still suggested Chris Smith get a job at his company, in an effort to put him on a path to his definition of respectability (like he tried to do with Luke), but that would have been the most he'd have done.  Then Lorelai getting pregnant by a poor boy would have been what they held over her head for the next twenty years.  Chris Hayden, on the other hand, came from a rich family of commensurate social standing, and would have been an asset to the Gilmores.  The Ps no doubt would have screwed it up so it's a good thing they never went there but I'm still curious. 

Well said!

[marineg]

On 4/12/2019 at 1:13 AM, scarynikki12 said:

Going back to them harping on how Lorelai is a huge failure for not marrying Chris, I would have liked to see an alternate reality episode where Lorelai gets pregnant by a boy from a low-income family.  Cause I guarantee that marriage wouldn't have ever crossed the Gilmores' minds.  They pushed marriage, and then later felt shame that it didn't happen, because Lorelai got pregnant by Chris Hayden.  If he'd been Chris Smith, who works part time after school at a video store after attending public school, with parents who struggle to make ends meet, then they'd be horrified. 

I agree with this. And moreover, I think that it would have been a more viable scenario than the one we got. If Chris was poor without any money, and Lorelai wasn't really a fan of them being a couple in love who co-parents, that would explain a lot of things. It would explain why Lorelai was the only one who supported Rory financially. It would explain why Chris, seeing that Lorelai didn't want to be in a relationship and have him be her partner felt like he had nothing to offer his kid. It would explain why he was always away from Rory, and didn't have a penny to his name. It obvisouly doesn't go well with E&R's fixation on Lorelai marrying Chris. But who can explain that. I think I would have preferred that storyline. The one of a poor kid who fell in love with the rich girl, and felt he wasn't good enough for his kid.

[junienmomo]

Pushkin.

Rewatching it right now and seeing hidden depths.

Rory is failing all over the place. Not just the Chilton student visitor, but she actively talks back to Lorelai when Lorelai is terribly snippy about Rory’s experience at Yale. It’s also obvious how Lorelai isn’t trying to keep up with her daughter’s experience and she’s a touch jealous that Richard knows the right questions to ask. Poor ticked off Lorelai is very tedious at this dinner.

Poor Rory was so embarrassed by Logan. That child really needed to relax and not take Yale so seriously.

Lorelai, filled with empathy for Luke’s dark day, can’t manage to confront him in an adult fashion. He struggles and finally volunteers more information, but she still can’t face him openly to say she’d bought the boat. 

Good episode with lots of drama.

At the end, why are Lorelai and Sookie smelling like pine when they moved deciduous trees?   ;) 

[Kohola3]

25 minutes ago, junienmomo said:

At the end, why are Lorelai and Sookie smelling like pine when they moved deciduous trees?

ASP World where continuity is just a suggestion.

[peacheslatour]

Every time Christopher shows up I hate him more.

[chessiegal]

16 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Every time Christopher shows up I hate him more.

Well, this sent me to see what episode was currently airing. Hee.

[peacheslatour]

40 minutes ago, chessiegal said:

Well, this sent me to see what episode was currently airing. Hee.

You watch on UP?

[chessiegal]

43 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

You watch on UP?

Yes. 

[peacheslatour]

17 hours ago, chessiegal said:

Yes. 

They're not having it on Fri. or Mon. I don't know why. 😭

[chitowngirl]

22 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

They're not having it on Fri. or Mon. I don't know why. 😭

Memorial Day weekend programming.

[peacheslatour]

2 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

Memorial Day weekend programming.

Yes, because there is no better way to remember the heroes who gave their lives for this country than showing endless reruns of America's Funniest Home Videos. Jesus.

[peacheslatour]

20 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Yes, because there is no better way to remember the heroes who gave their lives for this country than showing endless reruns of America's Funniest Home Videos. Jesus.

Quoting myself to add this was in no way intended as a poke at you chitowngirl.

Edited May 24, 2019 by peacheslatour