All Episodes Talk: Lorelai and Rory and the People They Love

[Taryn74]

25 minutes ago, TimetravellingBW said:

I really feel for Rory/Logan fans who were given a matured Logan and fairly healthy Rory/Logan relationship in s7 only for them to be toxic, selfish cheaters in the revival.

SO MUCH YES.

[ghoulina]

29 minutes ago, TimetravellingBW said:

I really feel for Rory/Logan fans who were given a matured Logan and fairly healthy Rory/Logan relationship in s7 only for them to be toxic, selfish cheaters in the revival.

I was never a Rory/Logan fan during the original run. I surprised myself by being happy to see them together in revival. That happiness didn't last long. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Taryn74 said:

SO MUCH YES.

Thank you both for your concern! :) My Logan-loving heart took quite the beating. :)

[chitowngirl]

I am watching GG on the Up channel and while they edit the sound on every "damn" and "hell", somehow Jason wanting to "piss off his father" makes it through. Amuses me every time.

[TimetravellingBW]

45 minutes ago, deaja said:

Thank you both for your concern! :) My Logan-loving heartbtook wuite the beating. :)

There was a super cute Tumblr post of a Jess fan arguing Logan deserved better writing and a Logan fan replied saying Jess deserved more screentime http://burningthegallows.tumblr.com/post/153758063668/hisgirlinthewhitedress-fyeahjessmariano-dear 

I'm glad post-revival that there hasn't been that many ship wars, character bashing or Jess/Logan fights. (At least not that I've seen). Even people who weren't fans of Logan/Rory have agreed their behaviour was ooc after s7. Everyone's been pretty united in "all three characters deserved better."

1 hour ago, ghoulina said:

I was never a Rory/Logan fan during the original run. I surprised myself by being happy to see them together in revival. That happiness didn't last long. 

It's a weird situation because on one hand Rory/Logan fans got to see their couple together romantically and confirmation they still have feelings for each other, but Logan's character and their dynamic was butchered. On the flipside Rory/Jess fans didn't get any sweet or romantic moments (except the bizarre look through the window) and Rory doesn't seem interested in Jess anymore, but Jess at least emerged with his character and development intact, and was the "good influence" in Rory's life. So everyone loses?

Edited February 25, 2017 by TimetravellingBW

[whateverhappened]

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So everyone loses?

I think you've just perfectly encapsulated the Palldinos' philosophy of television writing! 

[Taryn74]

24 minutes ago, whateverhappened said:

 

Quote

So everyone loses?

I think you've just perfectly encapsulated the Palldinos' philosophy of television writing! 

 

Heh, my thoughts exactly.

[whateverhappened]

Quote

Heh, my thoughts exactly.

Right? The revival really doubled down on that, but it some ways that cyncism was there all along. Like others said, it was just concealed under a heaping serving of whimsical quirk and cutesy moments.

Some of the takeaways ---

Even if your "ship" ends up together, you'd better damn well not expect them to have a happy and healthy relationship.

All people with money are jerks.

Most people without money are jerks too, just in a different way because ...

...People with money are an entirely different species from people without it, and every single aspect of the speech, behavior, personalities and values of all people with money differs from those of all people without money. Not that the Palladinos are prone to weird exaggerations and generalizations. 

The only men of quality and substance have serious issues with anger and jealousy and must be surly and devoid of charm and joy at all times. 

Everyone on earth is either really, really selfish and dysfunctional or really, really, really selfish and dysfunctional.

Romance is The Big Lie. Everyone either settles for a relationship without much passion and communication or ends up alone. 

Alcohol is an awesome coping device. [I might be alone in this, but it irked me at points in the series and especially during the revival, where it felt like they were swilling down booze in almost every scene]

Female empowerment means that our main female characters care only about themselves and mock or callously disregard most other women, especially those who have the gall to be involved with a man who's supposed to be exclusively worshiping a Gilmore instead.

Cheating is fine as long as the guy you're cheating with has a significant other who appears less 'charming' and adorable than you are.  

We all must drearily follow in our relatives' footsteps and make the same mistakes they did, free will be damned.  

[Kohola3]

BEST analysis, whateverhappened.  Totally on point.

[lulu1960]

On 2/24/2017 at 10:13 AM, FictionLover said:

So, I have a question for "Team Whatever Guy you Ship".  This question is not sarcastic, I really want to know. If you have a guy that you really like why would you want him to end up with Rory, especially after the shallow, thoughtless and selfish one we were given in the revival?  Even Alexis was surprised how she was written.  I liked Rory for the first four seasons but once she turned into a whiney annoying character, she lost me.  But after Revival Rory I was surprised anyone cared who she ended up with.  Just wondering...

That's a very valid point. I am Team Jess but I think he is too good for her now. She basically 'deserves' Logan.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Well, she ended up pregnant and alone.  

So there's that.

[hippielamb]

On 2/24/2017 at 11:13 AM, FictionLover said:

So, I have a question for "Team Whatever Guy you Ship".  This question is not sarcastic, I really want to know. If you have a guy that you really like why would you want him to end up with Rory, especially after the shallow, thoughtless and selfish one we were given in the revival?  Even Alexis was surprised how she was written.  I liked Rory for the first four seasons but once she turned into a whiney annoying character, she lost me.  But after Revival Rory I was surprised anyone cared who she ended up with.  Just wondering...

Well, I really liked Rory in the revival  (minus her selfishness in writing the book, but that's another matter). 

I have never really shipped any of Rory's relationships. I liked Dean (still do) but they were a dull couple, Jess I can't stand, and didn't notice any unresolved feelings on Rory's part in regards to him in the revival. That leaves Logan. He is the best suited to the Rory of season 6 and onwards. I found their relationship in the revival very interesting. It probably helps that they are adults now, not kids anymore. He's on her level in many ways that the other two are not. I thought that back in season 6 and 7, the revival just underlined it. 

On 2/24/2017 at 5:41 PM, TimetravellingBW said:

I really feel for Rory/Logan fans who were given a matured Logan and fairly healthy Rory/Logan relationship in s7 only for them to be toxic, selfish cheaters in the revival. In the OS I loathed Logan initially but did appreciate he'd developed into a good guy by s7, even if I didn't think he was compatible with Rory. Post-revival the initial issues with him in s5/6 (his arrogance, need to be in control, how he treated those "below" him, the way he treated women, the person Rory was around him) all came back 10 times worse. And for me that's not a big deal because I never cared much about Logan but regressing his character so much is pretty unfair for Logan fans. 

Or, the Rory/Logan in season 7 was OOC from what we saw in season 6. Their relationship makes more sense in the revival if you go from season 6. It makes it hard though because they are elements of season 7 that I enjoy, and I don't want to erase them. Not just Rory and Logan but of Lorelai's story too. 

[shron17]

On 2/24/2017 at 0:35 PM, Winter Rose said:

If Revival Rory is who she was always meant to be then absolutely there's something depressing, rather than hopeful, as a fan of the pair when Jess looks at her through the window. But if the Rory we all once knew and loved is still in there somewhere, I can't pretend I wouldn't be thrilled to see her and Jess find each other again.

Revival Rory was set up to make a big change in her life.  She was unhappy with her career, her relationships and who she was.  I'm probably the eternal optimist, but I really think writing the book is primarily meant to be a way for Rory to find her old self again, the person she wanted to be when she was 16.  I mean, who of us hasn't dreamed of going back and incorporating more of that person we thought we could be then into our lives now?   Jess pointed the way by reminding her what her touchstone was when they first met.  Rory just needs to realize it isn't about your grades or where you went to school or where you did or didn't get a job, but about how you live your life every day.

[WhosThatGirl]

As someone who never really in all honestly had a horse in the shipper race for Rory (although when pressed, I would say Jess and Rory). I too liked Logan by the end of the original series. He was probably the best boyfriend she ever had. I remember when he took care of her and the family during Richards second heart attack and him sending her a care package when she returned to school after. 

But I guess it's all a moot point because we are supposed to believe that none of that happened. He went to London at the end of season six and whatever. I do feel for people who did care for them deeply only for them to be cheating cheaters and now Logan gets a Christopher rewrite. 

[tarotx]

Season 7 isn't OOC except for they were allowed some growth. But for Amy to have her full circle ending, Logan needed to be a trapped soul never released from his family and Rory had to end single, pregnant and unsure about the future. So not only her love life had to be rough, all parts did.

I do think the Rogan dynamic in the revival is interesting and they just break me especially in their goodbye stuff. And I would have enjoyed much of it enough for it not to affect my view of the OS, if not for the pregnancy and all the Christopher crap. If before the final 4 words was their ending, it would have been heartbreaking but still holding that romance novel feel that Rogan has always had for me. But it's not the end and the thought of Logan not being there for their child just destroys me. In this scenario, he isn't going to be like Christopher but a worse version of his own father. It just leaves me angry the more I think about it. It's one of the only things I won't accept as a fan of the show. I mean for the support characters. There's a lot of Lorelai and Luke and even Rory worry that has the potential to completely destroy all interest I have and ashamed of all the money I've spent. 

And one of those is Rory continuing, not like Lorelai but, the OS Christopher she was like in the Revival. Though I think that wasn't planned. I think we are supposed to see all 3 Gilmore girls finally ready or forced to be ready to accept change and uncertainty as they continue to live life. 

It just kills me that [almost] all the OS kids are just full circled to be their parent figure. It just a wasted generation? 

But I guess most of this is worry about what more episodes would bring...

Edited February 27, 2017 by tarotx

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

5 hours ago, hippielamb said:

 

Or, the Rory/Logan in season 7 was OOC from what we saw in season 6. Their relationship makes more sense in the revival if you go from season 6. 

What about S7 made them OOC? They were deeply in love and Logan was begging her to ask him to stay when S6 ended. So the Revival is still a head scratcher even if you don't factor in S7. 

1 hour ago, tarotx said:

 

If before the final 4 words was their ending, it would have been heartbreaking but still holding that romance novel feel that Rogan has always had for me. But it's not the end and the thought of Logan not being there for their child just destroys me. In this scenario, he isn't going to be like Christopher but a worse version of his own father. It just leaves me angry the more I think about it.

I never got the Logan = Logan vibe until I read it online. If it is not on the show, then show runners are playing lip service. I have learned that lesson a long time ago that writers like to, for the sake of promotion or whatever, they say something different than what is actually happening on the show. ASP especially wrote Logan to be Rory's most dependable relationship during his run. That was one of most defining trait for them as a couple and ASP herself wrote it . Chris' most defining trait a character and how he relates to Rory and Lorelai was inability to be there for them. The rich kids and prep schools that they shared in common is very shallow, and most of these are things they share with both Lorelai and Rory. (Lorelai/Chris attended the same prep school. Rory/Logan prep school and Ivy league in common) Rory and Lorelai, despite the Shallows, partially share the same background as Chris and Logan so any parallel she's drawing had to be beyond backgrounds and parental influence. Those are not defining characteristics.

If ASP wanted to liken Chis/Logan for her stupid full circle, she had 4 episodes in the revival to try to unwrite their OS dynamics, but emphasized it instead. Logan was Rory's rock in the revival. It wasn't even Lorelai she automatically reached out when she needed to just vent. She allowed Logan to see her at her worst and he was safe enough place for her to go at a time when he world was crumbling. He flew across an ocean just to cheer her up. ASP can give all the interviews that Logan is her Chis, it won't make it the truth because my perception is not taken from a piece of interview but on the material itself. 

[tarotx]

9 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

What about S7 made them OOC? They were deeply in love and Logan was begging her to ask him to stay when S6 ended. So the Revival is still a head scratcher even if you don't factor in S7. 

I never got the Logan = Logan vibe until I read it online. If it is not on the show, then show runners are playing lip service. I have learned that lesson a long time ago that writers like to, for the sake of promotion or whatever, they say something different than what is actually happening on the show. ASP especially wrote Logan to be Rory's most dependable relationship during his run. That was one of most defining trait for them as a couple and ASP herself wrote it . Chris' most defining trait a character and how he relates to Rory and Lorelai was inability to be there for them. The rich kids and prep schools that they shared in common is very shallow, and most of these are things they share with both Lorelai and Rory. (Lorelai/Chris attended the same prep school. Rory/Logan prep school and Ivy league in common) Rory and Lorelai, despite the Shallows, partially share the same background as Chris and Logan so any parallel she's drawing had to be beyond backgrounds and parental influence. Those are not defining characteristics.

If ASP wanted to liken Chis/Logan for her stupid full circle, she had 4 episodes in the revival to try to unwrite their OS dynamics, but emphasized it instead. Logan was Rory's rock in the revival. It wasn't even Lorelai she automatically reached out when she needed to just vent. She allowed Logan to see her at her worst and he was safe enough place for her to go at a time when he world was crumbling. He flew across an ocean just to cheer her up. ASP can give all the interviews that Logan is her Chis, it won't make it the truth because my perception is not taken from a piece of interview but on the material itself. 

 

I try to only focus on what I see on the show but some days it's harder than others. 

[shron17]

17 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

What about S7 made them OOC? They were deeply in love and Logan was begging her to ask him to stay when S6 ended.

One thing that changed is that Logan came back from London much sooner than the "at least a year" Mitchum promised in season 6.  Rory's relationship with him could have been much different had he been there throughout her senior year. 

And FWIW, Logan and Christopher bonded over getting kicked out of several prep schools, not just attending, an experience that neither Lorelai nor Rory shared. 

[whateverhappened]

The following is all just my opinion and how I saw Rogan. Definitely not claiming any of the people who perceived them differently are wrong because it's all very subjective. 

Rogan had some great scenes, but overall I thought their Season 6 relationship was a bit of a mess. To me it read like the Palladinos couldn't decide how they wanted the audience to perceive Logan or even how much longer they wanted him on the show and he - and Rory x Logan as a couple - was inconsistent as a result. They may have ended the season in love, but their relationship was hardly idyllic throughout that season. Didn't they break up at least twice in a relatively short span of time? That's hardly the model of a stable and healthy relationship. I don't doubt that they loved each other, but the writing often gave me the impression that we were supposed to conclude Logan's excessive partying and general high society lifestyle was diverting Rory from the person she used to be and was ideally meant to become. That was a theme throughout and what I saw as the purpose of Jess's visit that season - not to revive a Rory and Jess romance but as a wakeup call to Rory and using Jess a stand-in for the very large portion of the audience who disliked Logan and/or the person Rory had become during their time together. I'm definitely not blaming Logan for any of Rory's choices, but I'm just saying that I don't think of S6 Rogan as written to be a relationship we were supposed to view as "end game" or even very healthy. And to me they were definitely not an ideal romance novel couple despite having some individual romantic moments. In romance novels, the idea is that despite obstacles, the two characters clearly make each other happier and better and are meant to be happily ever after. I really like some of Rogan's scenes in S5 and S6 but didn't get the sense that the Palldinos wanted us to see Logan and Rory in that happily ever after romance novel way at all, more just as a love that was often enjoyable at the time but not ultimately meant to be. My money would have been on the Palladinos not planning to make Rogan endgame or even keeping them together through most of season 7 unless we're talking in a casual way so that they could make him the father of the baby Rory was supposed to have at age 22 because FULL CIRCLE and all that nonsense. Since the Palldinos write nearly everyone with money as elitist and frivolous at best and a downright terrible human being at worst, it's tough for me to believe they intended Logan to be the one for Rory longer term.

I do love a lot of their season 7 moments, but then David Rosenthal was a lot better at writing sweet romantic scenes and happy couples in general. I would have been very interesting to see how he would have written LL. Surely as at least a little happier, more connected and affectionate than the Palladinos did? Maybe that's just wishful thinking! 

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

I just can't buy into the notion that Logan's lifestyle had a negative impact on Rory. It robs Rory of her agency and culpability. He actually had a good influence on her in regard to her personal life and her career wise. She was bolder with him (sexually) than she'd ever been and it was through journalism that they bonded. Her investigating the LBD. Stealing the boat was the major negative thing had happened while they were together and it was all on Rory. Sorry but I'm not going shift blame to him. He was just there being a supportive boyfriend. 

Rory was already on the brink of going back to school when Jess did his annual drive by. I also don't agree that she was wasting her life away while she was out of school. She was paying for stealing the boat and working for the DAR. She was hardly home navel graving. 

I don't remember the exact timeline but they were more together than apart in 6. They fought once and made up when Rory hadn't fully forgiven him. It was during that time that she admitted to Jess that she was in love with Logan despite their current state.

And that brings me to something that bugs me. Until rewatched those scenes recently, I thought Rory imitated the kiss between her and Jess in season 6. Because she is accused of using Jess to get back at Logan as if she went there purposely to kiss him when in reality he kisses her. She responded for a whole second before pulling back. He then he got mad and she had to apologize to him for not being into him. The hell? That scene was a reminder that Jess doesn't like being turned down. 

[whateverhappened]

As I specifically said, I'm not blaming Logan for Rory's choices. But some people and relationships just don't bring out our best or truest selves. It's rarely anyone's fault, just a fact of human interaction. I was theorizing based on most of what they wrote that the Palldinos had that view of Rogan, that they wrote Logan x Rory as feeling strongly for each other and even benefiting from being together short term but ultimately weren't end game for reasons I've already talked about. We can agree to disagree on that. No one really knows what strange notions are swirling around under Amy Palldino's bizarre hats anyway. 

[shron17]

34 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

I don't remember the exact timeline but they were more together than apart in 6. They fought once and made up when Rory hadn't fully forgiven him. It was during that time that she admitted to Jess that she was in love with Logan despite their current state.

They actually fought twice.  Once in Balalaikas (6.08) over Jess and made up in FNAFF (6.13).  They fought again in Bridesmaids (6.16) and made up the next episode although Rory hadn't forgiven him.  I saw their relationship as more of a college relationship that wouldn't hold up after graduation, I guess, because their lives seemed so different.  In fact, I felt like that was the reason Rory broke it off with Logan in the revival.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

1 hour ago, whateverhappened said:

As I specifically said, I'm not blaming Logan for Rory's choices. But some people and relationships just don't bring out our best or truest selves. It's rarely anyone's fault, just a fact of human interaction. I was theorizing based on most of what they wrote that the Palldinos had that view of Rogan, that they wrote Logan x Rory as feeling strongly for each other and even benefiting from being together short term but ultimately weren't end game for reasons I've already talked about. We can agree to disagree on that. No one really knows what strange notions are swirling around under Amy Palldino's bizarre hats anyway. 

I was responding to this part of your post. 

Quote

but the writing often gave me the impression that we were supposed to conclude Logan's excessive partying and general high society lifestyle was diverting Rory from the person she used to be and was ideally meant to become

For that to be the case, Rory's choices would be due to Logan and his lifestyle which would be blame shifting IMO. I am not saying you are, but giving reasons of why I disagree if it was the show's intentions. Rory went through one "bad" period while she was with Logan. I put it in quotation marks because aside from the boat stealing, I don't agree with most that her dropping out of school was a bad idea, or that she was on a spiral whilst out of school. As I posted above, she was productive during that time. 

If that period was a low point, she was still with Logan when got past it. So if we are attributing the bad to him, it is only fair to to do the same for when she's thriving. 

Quote

And FWIW, Logan and Christopher bonded over getting kicked out of several prep schools, not just attending, an experience that neither Lorelai nor Rory shared

You are right, I forgot to add that to their similarities.

So they both got kicked out of prep schools.That just means they come from the same background like I assume most boys who attend prep schools. It still doesn't parallel how they relate to Rory/Lorelai.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[TimetravellingBW]

6 hours ago, whateverhappened said:

The following is all just my opinion and how I saw Rogan. Definitely not claiming any of the people who perceived them differently are wrong because it's all very subjective. 

Rogan had some great scenes, but overall I thought their Season 6 relationship was a bit of a mess. To me it read like the Palladinos couldn't decide how they wanted the audience to perceive Logan or even how much longer they wanted him on the show and he - and Rory x Logan as a couple - was inconsistent as a result. They may have ended the season in love, but their relationship was hardly idyllic throughout that season. Didn't they break up at least twice in a relatively short span of time? That's hardly the model of a stable and healthy relationship. I don't doubt that they loved each other, but the writing often gave me the impression that we were supposed to conclude Logan's excessive partying and general high society lifestyle was diverting Rory from the person she used to be and was ideally meant to become. That was a theme throughout and what I saw as the purpose of Jess's visit that season - not to revive a Rory and Jess romance but as a wakeup call to Rory and using Jess a stand-in for the very large portion of the audience who disliked Logan and/or the person Rory had become during their time together. I'm definitely not blaming Logan for any of Rory's choices, but I'm just saying that I don't think of S6 Rogan as written to be a relationship we were supposed to view as "end game" or even very healthy. And to me they were definitely not an ideal romance novel couple despite having some individual romantic moments. In romance novels, the idea is that despite obstacles, the two characters clearly make each other happier and better and are meant to be happily ever after. I really like some of Rogan's scenes in S5 and S6 but didn't get the sense that the Palldinos wanted us to see Logan and Rory in that happily ever after romance novel way at all, more just as a love that was often enjoyable at the time but not ultimately meant to be. My money would have been on the Palladinos not planning to make Rogan endgame or even keeping them together through most of season 7 unless we're talking in a casual way so that they could make him the father of the baby Rory was supposed to have at age 22 because FULL CIRCLE and all that nonsense. Since the Palldinos write nearly everyone with money as elitist and frivolous at best and a downright terrible human being at worst, it's tough for me to believe they intended Logan to be the one for Rory longer term.

I do love a lot of their season 7 moments, but then David Rosenthal was a lot better at writing sweet romantic scenes and happy couples in general. I would have been very interesting to see how he would have written LL. Surely as at least a little happier, more connected and affectionate than the Palladinos did? Maybe that's just wishful thinking! 

Yes to all of this. I never bought that Logan was meant to be Rory's end game precisely because their early relationship was so uneven, Rory wasn't her best self with him and he so much represented her grandparents/wealthy world while Rory seemed to need to find a way between the two sides of her. And while they were a happy couple in Season 7 there still wasn't any *they're end game/soulmates/meant to be together* indications. It was just a healthy relationship that's rarely seen on GG and largely due to DR's writing. (In contrast LL weren't always written as happy or healthy but the show constantly hinted they'd be End Game for most of the series).

So imo Logan and Rogan fans were screwed over because Logan's character reverted to pre-s7 (pre-s6 even) and because the Rory/Logan relationship was much unhealthier and more toxic than s7. However even s7 never gave any guarantee or justification that they'd end up together. They had a good college-aged relationship but that didn't promise they'd be together forever or in the revival a decade later.  Even taking into account s7, Rory/Logan not ending up together made complete sense on a lot of levels and for a lot of reasons. But the way it happened - Logan's characterization and their behaviour together didn't make sense in the context of s7. 

Basically the revival was inconsistent not because Rogan didn't end up together but because Rory and Logan's dynamic was butchered. They could have not ended up together without their relationship being so horrible

14 hours ago, hippielamb said:

Or, the Rory/Logan in season 7 was OOC from what we saw in season 6. Their relationship makes more sense in the revival if you go from season 6. It makes it hard though because they are elements of season 7 that I enjoy, and I don't want to erase them. Not just Rory and Logan but of Lorelai's story too. 

9 hours ago, tarotx said:

Season 7 isn't OOC except for they were allowed some growth. But for Amy to have her full circle ending, Logan needed to be a trapped soul never released from his family and Rory had to end single, pregnant and unsure about the future. So not only her love life had to be rough, all parts did.

7 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

What about S7 made them OOC? They were deeply in love and Logan was begging her to ask him to stay when S6 ended. So the Revival is still a head scratcher even if you don't factor in S7. 

Logan's development between s6 and s7 makes a lot more sense than Logan's development between s7 and the revival. Even in s5 and s6 Logan made sweeping changes in his life to accommodate Rory ("Ok, I'll be your boyfriend! All other girls gone!") and grand romantic gestures to woo her. That was present in s7. (As a whole I side-eye the whole "pure, perfect girl tames the wild playboy" thing but that's how Logan was written for all three seasons). Revival Logan is a liar and a cheater - something he wasn't even in earlier seasons - and lost all his development.

(Again, I still don't think s7 Logan/Rory were set up to be end game and I'm not actually a huge Logan fan. I still have issues with some of his overall behaviour in the OS, even under DR. But he was the worst of the worst in the revival with no justification why). 

4 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

For that to be the case, Rory's choices would be due to Logan and his lifestyle which would be blame shifting IMO. I am not saying you are, but giving reasons of why I disagree if it was the show's intentions. Rory went through one "bad" period while she was with Logan. I put it in quotation marks because aside from the boat stealing, I don't agree with most that her dropping out of school was a bad idea, or that she was on a spiral whilst out of school. As I posted above, she was productive during that time. 

If that period was a low point, she was still with Logan when got past it. So if we are attributing the bad to him, it is only fair to to do the same for when she's thriving. 

You are right, I forgot to add that to their similarities.

So they both got kicked out of prep schools.That just means they come from the same background like I assume most boys who attend prep schools. It still doesn't parallel how they relate to Rory/Lorelai.

6 hours ago, whateverhappened said:

As I specifically said, I'm not blaming Logan for Rory's choices. But some people and relationships just don't bring out our best or truest selves. It's rarely anyone's fault, just a fact of human interaction. I was theorizing based on most of what they wrote that the Palldinos had that view of Rogan, that they wrote Logan x Rory as feeling strongly for each other and even benefiting from being together short term but ultimately weren't end game for reasons I've already talked about. We can agree to disagree on that. No one really knows what strange notions are swirling around under Amy Palldino's bizarre hats anyway. 

Yes to this too. Sometimes you're just not a good or best version of yourself around certain people. That's not on them, that's just the dynamic. And imo Rory was never her best self around Logan. She was on a downhill spiral in terms of entitlement and lacking any backbone through s5 and 6. In s6 yes she was "productive" in doing court ordered community service and admittedly the DAR which was an actual job, but she wasn't figuring out her life or making a plan or considering new career options. She was living off her grandparents and Logan and at odds with her mom. That's not a good state. And even in s7, imo she still wasn't "thriving" (as a person rather than study/job) the way she was in early seasons.  As most fans comment - she was much more likable, down to earth, hard-working, dorky, humble and appealing in early seasons. She was better in s7 and her relationship with Logan was healthy, but Rory herself was still fairly entitled and out of sync with her earlier character. I also got the impression Rory and Logan were a pair who loved each other, and eventually had a good relationship at that stage of their life but it would eventually run its course/they were incompatible long term.

I always saw the Chris/Logan parallel as super obvious, even before they met.. (And their conversation wasn't just "we both went to prep school" they talked about similar interests in technology, gaming (I think) and rebelling against their parents/being expelled. It wasn't very subtle). Logan ended up being a lot more dependable than Chris regarding Rory but their personalities/interests were very similar. 

6 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

ht Rory imitated the kiss between her and Jess in season 6. Because she is accused of using Jess to get back at Logan as if she went there purposely to kiss him when in reality he kisses her. She responded for a whole second before pulling back. He then he got mad and she had to apologize to him for not being into him. The hell? That scene was a reminder that Jess doesn't like being turned down. 

The kiss looked pretty mutual imo and - more importantly - only happened after Jess asked if Rory had sorted things and she told him it was "all fixed." Which was an incredibly blatant "are you still with the guy?" Rory chose to imply she wasn't with Logan anymore and - as Jess pointed out - turned up alone, acting like she was single. Rory 100% led Jess on there and he was right to be pissed off. That's a crappy thing to do, especially to a guy whose been hung up on you for years.  If Rory didn't want Jess to think she was into him then freaking mention you're still with your boyfriend when he asks. 

Edited February 27, 2017 by TimetravellingBW

[Guest]

11 hours ago, tarotx said:

Season 7 isn't OOC except for they were allowed some growth. But for Amy to have her full circle ending, Logan needed to be a trapped soul never released from his family and Rory had to end single, pregnant and unsure about the future. So not only her love life had to be rough, all parts did.

Agree 100%

9 hours ago, shron17 said:

One thing that changed is that Logan came back from London much sooner than the "at least a year" Mitchum promised in season 6.  Rory's relationship with him could have been much different had he been there throughout her senior year. 

He only came back when he was no longer working for his father - he struck out on his own, failed, and then quit. So I don't see that as a problem with the writing.

8 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

I just can't buy into the notion that Logan's lifestyle had a negative impact on Rory. It robs Rory of her agency and culpability. He actually had a good influence on her in regard to her personal life and her career wise. She was bolder with him (sexually) than she'd ever been and it was through journalism that they bonded. Her investigating the LBD. Stealing the boat was the major negative thing had happened while they were together and it was all on Rory. Sorry but I'm not going shift blame to him. He was just there being a supportive boyfriend. 

Rory was already on the brink of going back to school when Jess did his annual drive by. I also don't agree that she was wasting her life away while she was out of school. She was paying for stealing the boat and working for the DAR. She was hardly home navel graving. 

I'm doing the pointy eye thing on your first couple of lines.  I really hate the idea that Logan was this negative influence on Rory when we saw him just being supportive and at times even trying to urge her back to school. Even the boat stealing was her idea, and his father still could have gotten her off/lesser of a punishment if Lorelai hadn't refused to let him (which is rich considering by the time of the hearing, she had washed her hands of the whole thing).  I also totally agree that Rory was on the brink of going back - in fact, I don't even think she "found herself" as much as she wanted out of her grandparents' house and Yale was the fastest way. 

[shron17]

30 minutes ago, deaja said:

He only came back when he was no longer working for his father - he struck out on his own, failed, and then quit. So I don't see that as a problem with the writing.

I think he was still working for his father when he came back or he wouldn't have gotten in trouble with him for the lawsuit.  He didn't break ties with the company until after that in GGO when he told his father he was resigning because he should be treated like any other employee.

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

I don't think Rory has an "endgame" in Amy's mind. Her sole plan for Rory was to get her pregnant so she introduced various guys throughout the series to accomplish that whenever the show happened to end. Judging by how long it took to let Lorelai settle down, Rory still has many, many bullshit romantic years ahead of her.

[Kohola3]

I wonder if the kid will be very tall and hairy. Then we'd know that the father was the one-night-stand Wookie.

[hippielamb]

On 2/26/2017 at 8:05 PM, tarotx said:

Season 7 isn't OOC except for they were allowed some growth.

It just kills me that [almost] all the OS kids are just full circled to be their parent figure. It just a wasted generation? 

But I guess most of this is worry about what more episodes would bring...

That's what I meant. I doubt Amy would have had any growth in their relationship or maturity on both their parts. 

 

I was thinking about that last night. Every character has some repeating of their parent(s). Lorelai, Rory, Lane, Paris, Chris, Logan. Oy... I don't like that notion. 

On 2/26/2017 at 9:32 PM, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

What about S7 made them OOC? They were deeply in love and Logan was begging her to ask him to stay when S6 ended. So the Revival is still a head scratcher even if you don't factor in S7. 

 

If ASP wanted to liken Chis/Logan for her stupid full circle, she had 4 episodes in the revival to try to unwrite their OS dynamics, but emphasized it instead. Logan was Rory's rock in the revival. It wasn't even Lorelai she automatically reached out when she needed to just vent. She allowed Logan to see her at her worst and he was safe enough place for her to go at a time when he world was crumbling. He flew across an ocean just to cheer her up. ASP can give all the interviews that Logan is her Chis, it won't make it the truth because my perception is not taken from a piece of interview but on the material itself. 

Someone upthread commented on the difference in their relationship from the revival, compared to when we last saw them. If you take their relationship in season 6 and then watch the revival, it's less jarring. Logan hasn't broken away from his family. He goes to London even though it is not what he wants. He and Rory love each other but there is no agreement on what their future entails, even if they are still a exclusive couple. All that communication comes in season 7. 

 

I think Logan is Rory's Chris in that he is the guy she can't let go of. Adding that he is most likely her child's father puts another layer to their relationship. College age Logan, when we first meet him I think would have been similar to Chris at the same age. The similarities fall away as they age. Logan in his early/mid 30's is in a very different place than the Chris we meet in season 1. 

 

18 hours ago, TimetravellingBW said:

Logan's development between s6 and s7 makes a lot more sense than Logan's development between s7 and the revival. Even in s5 and s6 Logan made sweeping changes in his life to accommodate Rory ("Ok, I'll be your boyfriend! All other girls gone!") and grand romantic gestures to woo her. That was present in s7. (As a whole I side-eye the whole "pure, perfect girl tames the wild playboy" thing but that's how Logan was written for all three seasons). Revival Logan is a liar and a cheater - something he wasn't even in earlier seasons - and lost all his development.

 

What did he lie about? I honestly don't remember. He was always straightforward with Rory. The cheating thing seems to really bother people. I just can't get too bothered by it. 

[TimetravellingBW]

2 hours ago, hippielamb said:

What did he lie about? I honestly don't remember. He was always straightforward with Rory. The cheating thing seems to really bother people. I just can't get too bothered by it. 

It's implicit, As you said Logan was a cheater - and therefore a liar as well. He lied to his future wife about the fact he was sleeping with another woman. That's a pretty major lie in my book, I don't know about anyone else. 

Yes, it's possible Logan and Odette had some open relationship system but nothing indicated that was the case. (Logan was going to put Rory up in a hotel with all the connotations of having a secret mistress, was uncomfortable when his Dad found them and went out onto the balcony to avoid Odette while he was on the phone with Rory). That's continual dishonest and underhand behaviour. I really don't see how being "straightforward" with Rory about the terms of their sex matters when he's that dishonest to the woman he's promised to spend the rest of his life with. 

Honestly, I can't not get bothered about it. Sure the impact of empathizing with Odette is lessened because we never see her. But she still exists in universe. Logan and Rory are still cheaters and liars and acting horribly, just because they have more screentime and are known characters doesn't cancel out the wrongness of their actions imo. It might mean we cut them more slack or try to understand their perspective more than an objective situation with two unknowns, but they're still doing a despicable thing.

Yes Rory and Logan are fictional so their actions obviously aren't as serious as real people's (as discussed here, you do go easier on fictional characters than in real life). But the show is still based in a realistic setting and in-universe holds up standards on honesty, cheating etc. This isn't some GoT's universe with totally different morality and outlook, GG norms are similar to RL society and expected behaviour. 

I"m actually curious how bad other people find the cheating. For me cheating and lying is a massive line to cross in terms of being a good or sympathetic person and people that do it - even if they're fictional - I'll judge harshly. Especially in the context of Rory and Logan with no understandable motivation. But maybe other people see it differently? 

Edited February 28, 2017 by TimetravellingBW

[Eeksquire]

I guess I should preface all of this by saying that, the more I think about the Revival, the more I wish that it hadn't happened, because I actually liked Season 7 and the direction the characters were moving in (growing up! changing! having functional relationships! moving ahead with careers!) and I feel like everyone in the Revival moved backwards because ASP couldn't let go of the fact that she was ousted in S7 and didn't get to do it the way she wanted. 

All that said, I find it hard to get exercised about the cheating because we don't know anything about Odette.  (Or, I guess really, in this context, Odette and Logan.)  The only real thing we know is about Logan and Odette is that they're engaged and Logan says something about that engagement fulfilling the Huntzberger Family Plan (or something to that effect).  Given that, it seems that Logan, at least, views this as a quasi-arranged marriage rather than a love match.  Since we don't have any indication to the contrary on any side, that's kind of how I saw it as well.  Bridesmaids aside (and I do think, much like Ross on Friends, that Logan believed that he and Rory were not together, even if we, the audience, thinks he was dumb for thinking so), I don't recall any other indication that Logan routinely cheated on anyone. Dated lots of women at once, yes, but that's not really the same unless there was some expectation of monogamy, which until Rory, I don't believe there was.

Again, that does beg the question as to why Logan didn't grow a pair and refuse the arranged marriage, but that goes to my point about the Revival ignoring that S7 happened.  It seems the plot in the Revival followed what ASP wanted to do for S7 and it really doesn't work - not only because it doesn't follow anything that happened in the actual S7, but also because it really doesn't track with an intervening 10 years - people don't get frozen in amber the way that a lot of these characters seemed to have been in the Revival.  I think the Logan we saw in S7 wouldn't be engaged to Odette at the behest of his family.

*Note: I also think the Revival completely character-assassinated Rory as far as her "relationship" with Paul (Paul?).  She may have been clueless in relationships, but she was never that absent-mindedly cruel to anyone, not even Marty.  

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Eeksquire said:

I feel like everyone in the Revival moved backwards because ASP couldn't let go of the fact that she was ousted in S7 and didn't get to do it the way she wanted. 

This is my overall feeling on the revival.

[Melancholy]

I'm actually pretty sympathetic to cheaters in many stories. I think it's too common to condemn wholly. 

However, I would say that GG paints cheating particularly unsympathetically for me, with the exception of S2-3 Rory/Jess and to a lesser extent, Rory's side of her affair with Dean. GG is not a show of bodice ripping sexy passion so it's not like people are slaves to passion. I do believe Lorelai/Christopher and Rory/Logan loved each other but it's superficial love, never tested by "for better or for worse." GG is determinantly not angsty so I don't usually feel like people are acting out sexually because of huge "big time legitimate pain"/Buffy. Rory has that a little in the Revival but it was glossed over. And while I like to say that Rory was acting out sexually over big pain over Richard's death and her flailing career, that's not a Logan/Rory friendly shipper analysis. 

I do lean on the painful sexual dysfunction analysis for Rory so I feel for her. I think Logan was just an asshole to cheat on Oddette and to pull shit like inviting Rory to come to England to stay in a hotel, leaving it up to Rory to sus out why she is put in storage this time.  I think there's something grotesque about Logan cracking wise that he sprung for the expensive wine because it's his family's restaurant while Rory is humiliated that they may have been caught by *Mitchum*. 

Edited February 28, 2017 by Melancholy

[tarotx]

Logan had allowed Rory to ship her boxes to His apartment, he took her places that prove he wasn't trying to hide her (both his family place and the Ivy are places Logan would be recognized). Rory is the one hiding Logan from her family (he's DiDi). She's the one who mentions Vegas twice in their Winter scene. Imo the restaurant scene Logan was trying to get a reaction from Rory. Rory was not one to accept being second. She stood up for herself in the casual and the Bridesmaids. When Rory calls, Logan answers even with Odette right next to him. When Odette comes home, he goes outside but he doesn't close the doors.

Logan should have mentioned Odette had moved in and he knows it and apologizes for it. But Rory's right, talking about what happened outside of Vegas wasn't part of their agreement. And when Rory was upset about staying at a hotel she didn't ask Logan for more, she got upset that she couldn't come when she wanted too.  And when it grew to Rory felt she couldn't Call Logan and did end things, Logan offered her what they were agreeing to before -His place for her to stay when she was working. Logan actually gives Rory everything she vocalizes she wants (A person to vent to at all hours, encouragment&warning about both of the work projects she discussed with Logan. He was of course also engaged following the dynastic plan. 

And we are supposed to see Logan as this boy who was never released from his family. Who in his heart, in his soul is incredibly trapped. (Which is what Amy considers similar to Christopher). At the end of season 6, Logan was going away from all of his self-imposed freedoms. He had graduated college, he was moving to another continent to get away from the LDB boys and Rory. Though he did have plans to see Rory (Christmas, Thanksgiving, Guy Fawkes day). They weren't breaking up but long distance is never easy. And here we have the revival Logan still treading between his family's dynastic plan (which Odette represents) and his self-imposed freedoms.

Imo Rory and Logan were usually happy when together. In s5 they had dealt with the Causal into steady and the issue with his family being an ass. In season 6 the fallout of his family was a huge issue. Logan was under pressure to start being a Huntzberger and Rory was dealing with quitting school because of Mitchum and the rift that caused in her family.  It ended in a huge Blow up with Logan that had repercussions later. But it was still them dealing with the fallout of how they both react to his family. 

By the end of s6, Rory had to have a strong character and persona and had to come into herself in her relationship with Logan. Which is another reason why the state she's at in the revival is sad. She's back at the beginning of s5. She writing stories like the downloading story where there is no story there but it seems trendy, she's with a boy she's with but he's not stimulating, she never sees him and even forgets about him. 

Edited February 28, 2017 by tarotx

[dubbel zout]

17 hours ago, TimetravellingBW said:

I"m actually curious how bad other people find the cheating.

I think it sucks, and they're both garbage. Logan is cheating on Odette, and Rory is cheating on Paul (not that she remembers she's in a relationship with him; ugh).

I think we weren't told much about Odette intentionally, so that whatever Logan said we'd take at face value and not think too hard about how gross he and Rory were.

[Winter Rose]

I think that's the same reason Paul was nothing more than a punchline. It takes the heat off of Rory for forgetting about him because everyone forgets about him. In a way, Odette was more of a character than Paul was despite that she never appeared. She at least had an influence on the storyline.

[shron17]

14 hours ago, Eeksquire said:

Given that, it seems that Logan, at least, views this as a quasi-arranged marriage rather than a love match.

Arranged or not, they are still engaged and it's clear Odette does not know about Rory.  That's cheating plain and simple.

14 hours ago, Eeksquire said:

Dated lots of women at once, yes, but that's not really the same unless there was some expectation of monogamy, which until Rory, I don't believe there was.

That's true, and kind of the point.  Logan has no experience being monogamous except with Rory.  To me, it seems likely he'd have a very hard time being faithful to any woman in the long term.  Even after Odette moved in he tried to tell Rory it didn't have to be weird for her to stay in a hotel.

14 hours ago, Eeksquire said:

I think the Logan we saw in S7 wouldn't be engaged to Odette at the behest of his family.

The Logan we saw in S7 had separated from the family business a few short months ago and accepted a job with a startup company in San Francisco.  Rory had turned down his proposal and he declared their relationship over.  While it would have been nice if an explanation had been offered, it's not too hard to speculate that Logan's new job didn't work out as well as he'd hoped so that he became involved in the family business which led to his relationship with Odette.  He may not have seen Rory for years until they ran into each other somewhere--London or elsewhere--and started the "Vegas" relationship.

10 hours ago, tarotx said:

By the end of s6, Rory had to have a strong character and persona and had to come into herself in her relationship with Logan. Which is another reason why the state she's at in the revival is sad. She's back at the beginning of s5.

Not really.  There were several major publications mentioned where Rory had articles published before the one in the New Yorker which was very well received.  She was a bit a drift yet not comparable to being in college and writing articles for the Yale Daily News.  It seems like she was using her career, and Logan, to avoid dealing with her unsatisfactory love life.

Edited March 1, 2017 by shron17

[Kohola3]

Quote

Arranged or not, they are still engaged and it's clear Odette does not know about Rory.  That's cheating plain and simple.

This isn't Merry Olde England where the royals in arranged marriages all had lovers on the side.  You're engaged (arranged or not which was a ludicrous premise anyway) but still have a sexual relationship with someone else, - it is cheating.  And immoral.

[Guest]

I don't think the marriage to Odette was arranged in an "arranged marriage" way. I think these days it would be more like a slow push together with lots of hints and pressure that it would be great if you ended up together.  An arranged marriage (or semi-arranged) to preserve a publishing dynasty seems like a ridiculous stretch anyway. I think it was just ASP having no concept of the real world yet again.

[tarotx]

10 minutes ago, deaja said:

I don't think the marriage to Odette was arranged in an "arranged marriage" way. I think these days it would be more like a slow push together with lots of hints and pressure that it would be great if you ended up together.  An arranged marriage (or semi-arranged) to preserve a publishing dynasty seems like a ridiculous stretch anyway. I think it was just ASP having no concept of the real world yet again.

 

Amy needed something big to represent Logan being trapped in his family. She wasn't really thinking about how the real world works. 

2006: "There are deeper layers to Logan or she wouldn’t be with him. Logan is a kid whose entire life has been preplanned for him. Rory grew up in a household where it was like, ‘Anything you want, kid, you go for it.’ He never had that. He grew up with all the money privilege, but he didn’t grow up with any freedom. His freedoms are sort of self-imposed, ‘I’m going to go act like an idiot, because I’ve never gotten a chance to explore who I am.’ I think Rory sees something deeper in him. This is a very smart guy, and if he ever got his [stuff] together, who knows.“ (Chicago tribune)

2016: “this is a boy who has never been released from his family. And all the freedom of the money and the wonderful charm of the Life and Death Brigade and the fact that he has cars and can do…in his heart, in his soul he’s incredibly trapped."(EW Radio)

[tarotx]

But I do agree that questioning Logan's ability to be faithful was always going to be an issue that Rory and he dealt with past s6. It wasn't dealt with in the revival, though. Amy&Dan just placed Rory&Logan in a situation that skirted both the family dynastic aspect and Logan's sexual promiscuity without any exploration. And they had Rory cheating on Paul and had Odette just a Macguffin ship block with no voice. 

[Lady Calypso]

On 2/28/2017 at 0:53 AM, TimetravellingBW said:

I"m actually curious how bad other people find the cheating. For me cheating and lying is a massive line to cross in terms of being a good or sympathetic person and people that do it - even if they're fictional - I'll judge harshly. Especially in the context of Rory and Logan with no understandable motivation. But maybe other people see it differently? 

I pretty much echo other people's thoughts about the cheating being bad, but I will add in one more point: just because the revival treats the cheating as no big deal, just because Paul's used as a punchline and as more of a funny joke than an actual person, and just because Odette is used as a Macguffin and is merely there as a disservice to Logan and Logan/Rory, it doesn't make the cheating any less wrong. We need to be better than ASP and DP here. It may just be a show, but it is supposed to be mirroring real life, societal norms and societal expectations and at the end of the day, Logan/Rory are cheaters. They can downplay it all they want, but it's not a good lesson to teach viewers that cheating is alright as long as the two people are in love.

It's simply not funny to forget to break up with your boyfriend for at least a year, and it's not funny to have everyone else forget about him too. It's not funny to have two people engaged and have one person blatantly cheating on them. Sure, Logan is certainly more open about it and he has more chances of being caught than Rory and her lies about it, but that actually makes it worse that he'll take Rory out in public but as long as he doesn't say the words "I'm sleeping with Rory" out loud, then all is fine. Forget the fact that Rory's more concerned with herself and losing Logan than how Odette/Paul are involved and would feel. Forget that this goes against all the growth Rory and Logan have done since Rory's affair with Dean, since Logan sleeping with the bridesmaids, and with Logan's growth that led him away from his family in season 7. Cheating is wrong, no matter how ASP is downplaying it. Much like how fat shaming Back Fat Pat (or whatever his name was) is wrong in Summer. 

[Aloeonatable]

Quote

I pretty much echo other people's thoughts about the cheating being bad, but I will add in one more point: just because the revival treats the cheating as no big deal, just because Paul's used as a punchline and as more of a funny joke than an actual person, and just because Odette is used as a Macguffin and is merely there as a disservice to Logan and Logan/Rory, it doesn't make the cheating any less wrong. We need to be better than ASP and DP here. It may just be a show, but it is supposed to be mirroring real life, societal norms and societal expectations and at the end of the day, Logan/Rory are cheaters. They can downplay it all they want, but it's not a good lesson to teach viewers that cheating is alright as long as the two people are in love.

Infidelity is wrong period. Logan should have broken up with Odette if he was so in love with Rory. Rory should have broken up with Paul, and never would have slept with a random Wookie, if she was in love with Logan. It is not complicated. 

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

I agree that her writing anything but dialogue is a mess, but I don't think its Amy's job to teach viewers lessons. If someone is looking to fictional tv characters for guidance a lot have people have failed them in their life. People can find villains and characters who make bad decisions and lead terrible lifestyles entertaining and root for them on screen or in a book and it not say anything about the kind of person they are. Moralizing about characters and situations that don't exist isn't cool. People like what they like and that's okay because its fiction.

[shron17]

2 hours ago, deaja said:

I don't think the marriage to Odette was arranged in an "arranged marriage" way. I think these days it would be more like a slow push together with lots of hints and pressure that it would be great if you ended up together.  An arranged marriage (or semi-arranged) to preserve a publishing dynasty seems like a ridiculous stretch anyway. I think it was just ASP having no concept of the real world yet again.

Logan is the one who referred to it as such to Rory.  He may have said that because he knew if he broke up with Odette it would be trouble for him with their families and with her.  That doesn't mean he didn't have a choice or that he would have been fired or disowned if he did break it off. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, RoyRogersMcFreely said:

I agree that her writing anything but dialogue is a mess, but I don't think its Amy's job to teach viewers lessons. If someone is looking to fictional tv characters for guidance a lot have people have failed them in their life. People can find villains and characters who make bad decisions and lead terrible lifestyles entertaining and root for them on screen or in a book and it not say anything about the kind of person they are. Moralizing about characters and situations that don't exist isn't cool. People like what they like and that's okay because its fiction.

I don't think anyone thinks it is her job to teach viewers lessons. But it does change how viewers see the characters and in many cases, it makes them like them less.  Now, some very unlikable characters on this show (cough... Paris Geller) are the most entertaining.  But Rory doesn't fall in that category for me either.

[RoyRogersMcFreely]

1 minute ago, deaja said:

I don't think anyone thinks it is her job to teach viewers lessons. But it does change how viewers see the characters and in many cases, it makes them like them less.  Now, some very unlikable characters on this show (cough... Paris Geller) are the most entertaining.  But Rory doesn't fall in that category for me either.

And that is the same with any show. You are going to like and dislike characters as a show goes along based on their actions and a person's personal reactions and preferences. It's not a show pushing an agenda or a moral code and it shouldn't be. They lay out who a character is and you feel however you feel about them.

[tarotx]

We don't need to be better than Amy&Dan. This is their world. But we are anyway. I mean we at least watched and rewatched the whole series and want the characters to stay within character and keep the growth they were allowed. Plus we know it's 2016 and that these characters are in their 30's, and understand you can't force characters in boxes meant for younger characters. We are the ones who try to find workable situations because they didn't feel it was necessary to explain anything. 

I don't like that Logan and Rory are cheaters. I feel sorry for Odette and Paul. I liked Paul for what I saw of him. I'm picturing Odette similar to Honor (and not Honor's friends or the many other rich girls on the show). I don't think she deserves to be cheated on. It's just that I like Logan and Rory and have for 15 and 12 years. Even if I'm disappointed in them and sad for the loss of the growth I perceived they had. But because of all that time loving the characters, what I think they want and what I want for them, trumps characters I can only guess about. 

Edited March 1, 2017 by tarotx

[moonb]

While I buy that Paul is a punchline to Rory and Lorelai, I thought it was out of character for Emily and Luke to blatantly forget somebody Rory was dating. That seems very unlikely. Whatever, he was supposed to a joke. 

Since this is fiction, it's not the cheating as such I find gross so much as the associating stuff, like Mitchum subtly gloating at Rory in the restaurant for being the "other woman." He knows she's trapped somewhat by this. Some thing with the family house Logan offers Rory, or the hotel room. Yes, they supposedly love each other, but that stuff makes it a joke, imo. 

[Aloeonatable]

Quote

People can find villains and characters who make bad decisions and lead terrible lifestyles entertaining and root for them on screen or in a book and it not say anything about the kind of person they are. Moralizing about characters and situations that don't exist isn't cool. People like what they like and that's okay because its fiction.

I'm not sure what you meant in the bolded sentence. I can't disregard my own principles when watching (or reading about) a fictional character. If I think that infidelity is wrong, I'm going to dislike that trait or action in a fictional character. I may still find it fascinating to explore the nature of such a character, but that doesn't mean I can't find their actions deplorable.