All Episodes Talk: Lorelai and Rory and the People They Love

[Melancholy]

Well, I think Rory had grounds to call Lorelai out on Christopher in that scene. However I was actually on Lorelai's side in that moment. It was a very worthwhile question that if Rory is really writing a tell-all book and matter of factly reacting to stories that Lorelai would rather keep hidden with "You did leave me in a bucket!", is Rory going to apply that tell-all spirit to her own life and its embarrassing chapters. I mean, Rory said she'd write about her boyfriends so lol, I'm holding her to writing a Reynolds Pamphlet about her sexual misdeeds. "Never gonna be president, never gonna be president. Dayum!!!" /Hamilton reference. Lol that may also clear up the fandom question of whether Rory tells Logan about the baby. He can read all about it! 

Edited January 11, 2017 by Melancholy

[Frelling Tralk]

14 hours ago, deaja said:

I don't agree that Logan had been condescending to Marty prior to that. Asking if he was still interested in bar tending parties was innocuous. He was complimentary of Marty's work. His friends were terrible (as per usual) but Logan himself was fine.

I agree, it was really mostly Colin that kept insulting Marty in our first meeting with them (and Logan even tells him not to be an ass), all Logan does is ask if Marty is still interested in bartending for them and throws in a compliment on Marty making a kick-ass margarita. 

And if Logan had made any kind of reference to realising that the dinner is a little out of Marty's budget, so he's happy to cover for him, then I would totally understand Marty feeling patronised in that episode. As it was I felt like Logan handled it in the most gracious way possible when he just said that hey it was me that invited the two of you, so it's my treat. It looked far more desperate and humiliating to leave them all waiting while Marty dashes out to the street insisting that he'll get the money. I can understand him being defensive around them as a group because of Colin had spoken to him in the past, but I also felt like there was a lot of male ego involved when it came to Logan, and not wanting to accept money from him in front of Rory 

[elang4]

5 minutes ago, Frelling Tralk said:

I agree, it was really mostly Colin that kept insulting Marty in our first meeting with them (and Logan even tells him not to be an ass), all Logan does is ask if Marty is still interested in bartending for them and throws in a compliment on Marty making a kick-ass margarita. 

And if Logan had made any kind of reference to realising that the dinner is a little out of Marty's budget, so he's happy to cover for him, then I would totally understand Marty feeling patronised in that episode. As it was I felt like Logan handled it in the most gracious way possible when he just said that hey it was me that invited the two of you, so it's my treat. It looked far more desperate and humiliating to leave them all waiting while Marty dashes out to the street insisting that he'll get the money. I can understand him being defensive around them as a group because of Colin had spoken to him in the past, but I also felt like there was a lot of male ego involved when it came to Logan, and not wanting to accept money from him in front of Rory 

I agree. Logan was always ok with him and when Colin was rude, he told him off. Even after Marty rushed off and Rory went after him, Colin said something rude and Logan gave him a 'don't be an ass' look.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Melancholy said:

Well, I think Rory had grounds to call Lorelai out on Christopher in that scene. However I was actually on Lorelai's side in that moment. It was a very worthwhile question that if Rory is really writing a tell-all book and matter of factly reacting to stories that Lorelai would rather keep hidden with "You did leave me in a bucket!", is Rory going to apply that tell-all spirit to her own life and its embarrassing chapters. I mean, Rory said she'd write about her boyfriends so lol, I'm holding her to writing a Reynolds Pamphlet about her sexual misdeeds. "Never gonna be president, never gonna be president. Dayum!!!" /Hamilton reference. Lol that may also clear up the fandom question of whether Rory tells Logan about the baby. He can read all about it! 

Love. :)

[Keith1980]

On 1/11/2017 at 4:14 AM, deaja said:

I don't agree that Logan had been condescending to Marty prior to that. Asking if he was still interested in bar tending parties was innocuous. He was complimentary of Marty's work. His friends were terrible (as per usual) but Logan himself was fine.

Part of it might be down to Logan being a new character at the time.  Because he was introduced as a rich jerk, then I think most people would read that comment about Marty as being a sarcastic putdown.  That's how I took it and I think it was.  But later Logan improves as a person.  It is true that his friends are worse to Marty though.

Jess is my favourite of Rory's boyfriends.  I like the spark between them and got the impression they truly cared about each other.  Jess made a good impact upon his debut and though he treated Rory bad at times he does mature later.

Dean I can take or leave.  Think his early relationship with Rory was pretty watchable, but he just got more bland and annoying as a character as time went on. 

Feel the same about Logan.  Though he won me over after a dodgy start.  The misunderstood rich kid trope is a bit overused on the show and partly because of the actor's looks and his rich background I was never convinced about him.  And I think acting wise he is a bit bland at time.  He's a decent guy, but like Dean turned into too much of a middle of the road character.  He was never charming enough to convince me or interesting enough as a bad boy to be that interesting. 

Luke is the only one for Lorelai.  I loved them together on screen even when they were just friends. 

[DisneyBoy]

I'll always wish we got more tme with Digger. Luke was who she wanted to be with but their relationship was, to me anyways, more work. Luke had to prostrate himself and Lorelai never really worked to treat him right and appreciate his groove. Their communication problems in the revival, though exaggerated, pointed to their personality differences. I feel like Digger was an easier fit - witty like Lorelai, selfish and ambitious like Lorelai and soft hearted like her too.

I found his reappearance at Richard's wake really moving. He would have treated her right in the end...

I think part of the problem is that Lor wanted to dump on her parents a bit while never completely betraying them/hating them (though her magazine interview and wake snafu might suggest the worst). Staying with Digger once he found himself having to sue Richard would have forced her to pick sides for good. She liked the fence.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Do you mean Jason? Wasn't Digger Jackson't sour cousin that Sookie/Jackson went on the double date with Lorelai? 

[shron17]

44 minutes ago, DisneyBoy said:

Staying with Digger once he found himself having to sue Richard would have forced her to pick sides for good. She liked the fence.

I always thought Digger suing Richard was Lorelai's confirmation that Jason was like her father in that business would always be his top priority.   And through all their communication problems, personality difference, and obstacles it was clear that underneath it all Luke and Lorelai  understood each other on a deeper level and accepted each other as is.

[DisneyBoy]

That was Rune. Digger is Jason's nickname.

And through all their communication problems, personality difference, and obstacles it was clear that underneath it all Luke and Lorelai  understood each other on a deeper level and accepted each other as is.

The writing in seasons 6, 7 and 8 make it hard for me, as a L/L fan, to say they're accepting of one another... but yes, I do think they should be together.

I guess Jason just kept Lor on her toes in a way I liked. She had to adapt to him a bit, but it was clear he adored her and they had an "I've always known you" way about them. I will always resent the way Lor seemed to have a servant in Luke. With Jason, she had an equal. They both could have worked harder on their careers...I hate to quote Dean in season six, but Luke wasn't interested in going far in business or leaving town. Lor was, though she would deny it to herself and her parents.

Lor with Jason might have damaged her relationship with her parents and left Rory more willing to turn to Emily and Richard during her season five meltdown... but I wonder if Lor would have been happy in the end with a jet-setting job and husband to match.

She'd already done the quirky small town thing and I think, like Rory (and as Dean suspected), she wanted more.

Edited January 15, 2017 by DisneyBoy

[shron17]

2 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Wasn't Digger Jackson't sour cousin that Sookie/Jackson went on the double date with Lorelai? 

Digger = Jason Stiles and Umlauts = Lorelai Gilmore.  Rune was Jackson's cousin.  From An Affair to Remember:
 

Quote

 

LORELAI: No, you didn't, because you didn't think. You never thought. Back in summer camp, you never thought. "Hey, if I stand up in this canoe, maybe it'll tip over." That was the extent of your thought process.
JASON: You're still mad about that.
LORELAI: I was fully dressed.
JASON: I remember - green T-shirt, no bra.
LORELAI: What?
JASON: Trust me, I was the hero of cabin five for the rest of the summer.
LORELAI: You will apologize to my mother.
JASON: Absolutely.

LORELAI: And you will let her throw that party.
JASON: Sorry.
LORELAI: Digger!
JASON: Umlauts! The party is off. Now this is business. I will apologize to Emily, but that is the best I can do.
LORELAI: I can't believe you just called me Umlauts.
JASON: You called me Digger three times before I called you Umlauts once. I think that shows great self-control.

 

[Keith1980]

I think Jason is one who gets more hate than he deserves.  At times he's a bit smug, and I don't think him and Lorelai were meant to be.  But I think for awhile they made a good couple, and thought he was a decent bloke. 

The only thing with Jason is that I always thought he looked a little too much like a serial killer! lol.  Mostly when he wasn't clean shaver.

Edited January 15, 2017 by Keith1980
Forgot to add final bit.

[JayInChicago]

I actually sort of like the Marty at the Rich kids Chinese food dinner scene because I think it was financially realistic which is...odd for this show and yet refreshing.

[Melancholy]

I like Jason and Max OK- even though I don't love them. Max has an annoying side where he's condescending or couldn't follow the rules of his profession and keep his pickle his pants when it came to Lorelai even though Rory was in his class. (However, I blame Lorelai mostly for that because she owes the most to Rory's emotional well-being and reputation.) I just don't think they were right for Lorelai. However, I can them as great for another woman. I really can't ship Lorelai with anyone but Luke. Except for maybe Peyton Sanders because Jon Hamm <melts into a puddle of lust>. Jon Hamm's looks really go well with Lauren Graham's- and there was quite memorable sparkage for such a short scene between both actors. 

I never thought Lorelai wanted to leave Stars Hallow and become a jet-setting businesswoman. I *certainly* don't think she looks for a power-broker businessman in a man. She fundamentally wants a more beta partner. And Jason's workaholism and UBER-efficiency captured in how he trained Cyrus were landmines to detonate their relationship if the lawsuit didn't. Lorelai had plenty of opportunity to travel more or to go for Mike Armstrong's offer or look for comparable offers. She never did that. Certainly to the point of traveling more, I didn't see Luke as an obstacle to Lorelai doing that. He was game to travel in the past.

Despite her energy and effervescence, I think Lorelai was *exhausted* on a fundamental level after raising Rory and climbing to the middle class. She led a very busy, stressful life from 15 to 35. In S5-7, I see Lorelai as bent on wrapping up her life to end in a very comfortable, relaxed secure place far more than to embark on another adventure and test her limits. I think that attitude drove her desperation to get married to Luke and then, Chris as a placeholder. I think it's very reasonable to conclude that Summer/Fall features Lorelai getting her second wind back and finally embarking on clear steps to shake up her life- and then, the final irony that Rory's pregnancy may do that for Lorelai. 

Edited January 16, 2017 by Melancholy

[Keith1980]

Not a Max fan.  Just find the character way to boring personally and never felt him and Lorelai worked as a couple.  They seem more like a sitcom couple to me.

[Taryn74]

I'm doing a (very slow) rewatch - meaning if I've got some paperwork or something to do I have GG on in the background - and I was reminded in L&W&S recently why I always hated Max.  Lorelai is clearly uncomfortable "inviting him in" at the end of their date and instead of trying to ease her mind he just keeps pushing in such a smarmy 'you know you can't resist me for long' way.  It makes me ill.

[Melancholy]

45 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

I'm doing a (very slow) rewatch - meaning if I've got some paperwork or something to do I have GG on in the background - and I was reminded in L&W&S recently why I always hated Max.  Lorelai is clearly uncomfortable "inviting him in" at the end of their date and instead of trying to ease her mind he just keeps pushing in such a smarmy 'you know you can't resist me for long' way.  It makes me ill.

This is all true. I really don't like Max's conduct with Lorelai which is admittedly most of his role. I lean on his role as a teacher and some of the kind things he did for Rory like being very nice to her through the faculty profile interview even just after Lorelai jilted him to conclude that Lorelai had a particularly bad crazy influence on him and he's usually not so pushy with women. Which he said in a goofy, induce-eye roll way ("You're some kind of mythological creature.") but I still believe the general gist. 

[HawkeyeLo]

On January 11, 2017 at 0:55 AM, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

And Rory. Somehow they became the bad guys in the Marty saga 

Yeah, I don't think Logan did anything wrong in that episode, but I think Rory was pretty terrible. She's the one who chased Marty down and insisted he hang out with her, then she was sitting there with her legs draped all over him, which is not the way you generally sit with someone you consider just a friend. And then she jumps at the chance to break the plans she made as soon as she gets what she considers a better offer? No way. Yes, Marty should've bowed out of dinner, but Rory should've said no to Logan in the first place. She put Marty in a crappy position--saying "oh...we don't really have to go if you don't want to" when she so clearly wanted to go wasn't fair. She shouldn't have put that on him, in my opinion.

I generally like Rory, but that's one where I think she was fairly selfish. Logan was perfectly nice, though.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

^^ I'll agree to disagree. 

I just finished season 3.

Lorelei's shortsightedness or ignorance when it comes to the Chilton and now Yale is frustrating. If she's done her homework, she'd know about eligibility and not give back the check Richard gave her.

Jess and Rory at Kyle's party. The popularity of this ship puzzles me due to the "blink and you'll miss it" time he spent in Rory's life but scenes like that is why I think Rory when she was done with him, was done. 

Dean asking Lindsey to marry him reminded me of Lane marrying and having babies in her teens. ASP loves her some teens playing house.

Max' return served no purpose except to reward Lorelai for treating him like dirt. It is bad enough that he can stand the sight of her, but liking her 

And I did not cry at Rory's graduation speech. Not for the millionth time.

Edited January 17, 2017 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[Melancholy]

10 hours ago, HawkeyeLo said:

Yeah, I don't think Logan did anything wrong in that episode, but I think Rory was pretty terrible. She's the one who chased Marty down and insisted he hang out with her, then she was sitting there with her legs draped all over him, which is not the way you generally sit with someone you consider just a friend. And then she jumps at the chance to break the plans she made as soon as she gets what she considers a better offer? No way. Yes, Marty should've bowed out of dinner, but Rory should've said no to Logan in the first place. She put Marty in a crappy position--saying "oh...we don't really have to go if you don't want to" when she so clearly wanted to go wasn't fair. She shouldn't have put that on him, in my opinion.

I generally like Rory, but that's one where I think she was fairly selfish. Logan was perfectly nice, though.

Rory did say "no" to Logan. 

LOGAN: No, very dull. Let’s not talk about it. We’re all going to China Palace for food. Grab your coat, let’s go.
RORY: Oh, um. I can’t.
LOGAN: What? Sure you can. Come on. I missed you, let me buy you a fortune cookie.
RORY: I kind of have company.
LOGAN: Really, anyone I know? [He looks in over Rory’s shoulder. Marty stands up.] Hey, Marty, good to see you.
MARTY: Uh, yeah. You too.
LOGAN: Well, you come too. The more the merrier.
RORY: Oh, well –
LOGAN: Come on, Marty. If you’re going to be hanging with Ace like this, it’s time I get to know you without a waiter’s uniform on. Let’s go. Car’s waiting outside. [He leaves.]

Yes, Rory can't disguise that she's interested in going out of her voice. However from her words, it's a clear "no." It's actually on Logan that he couldn't take a "no" and walked out of the scene, assuming they'd follow when Rory said "no" and Marty said nothing at all. That's a clear point where Logan was so entitled and spoiled that he did wrong. I can't hold it against Rory that her words demurred but her tone betrayed an interest in going- she's not a professional actress. 

I will agree, though, that the way she was sitting and the way she chased him down and the elaborateness of the night seemed romantic and the ultimate result was to lead Marty on. I don't think Rory meant it maliciously. I think the OTT elaborate parties of Stars Hallow and her mother's hyper-affection and own elaborate "sit and watch TV nights" somewhat skewed Rory on how most people interact to do something as low-key as hang with a friend in a dorm. However, I"ll also agree that Rory has this need to confirm that everyone, especially guys, adore her and she was going to flirt and cajole Marty into being a fan even though she had no intention on going the next step. 

10 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

^^ I'll agree to disagree. 

I just finished season 4.

Lorelei's shortsightedness or ignorance when it comes to the Chilton and now Yale is frustrating. If she's done her homework, she'd know about eligibility and not give back the check Richard gave her.

Jess and Rory at Kyle's party. The popularity of this ship puzzles me due to the "blink and you'll miss it" time he spent in Rory's life but scenes like that is why I think Rory when she was done with him, was done. 

Dean asking Lindsey to marry him reminded me of Lane marrying and having babies in her teens. ASP loves her some teens playing house.

Max' return served no purpose except to reward Lorelai for treating him like dirt. It is bad enough that he can stand the sight of her, but liking her 

And I did not cry at Rory's graduation speech. Not for the millionth time.

I love that Lorelai is such an advocate for Rory but sometimes her advocacy blinds her to where Rory actually stands in the world and what's best for her. Lorelai arguing "Rory is the most deserving kid in the world! How can you not give her financial aid!" to the Yale financial aid person on the phone is a great example. To say something that out of touch to a person who handles the financial aid for ACTUALLY THOUSANDS of Yale students in far worse financial situations than Rory, who came from public high schools or were on need-based scholarships at their private schools. This isn't a case of Lorelai being over-zealous in advocating for her kid. This is Lorelai being, again, clueless on how college works. It's not getting that every applicant serious about attending *a* university upon graduation from high school needs to apply more than one place all over again. She's very lucky that Emily and Richard have the money and the will to bail her out of these choices. I really hate her after Rory brokers the most reasonable deal to get E/R to pay for FNDs for just RORY attending FNDs for to instead pout at Rory, "Okay, maybe, maybe it is. But just once, just once, I want you to get exactly what you want, and me to get exactly what I want, and them to get NOTHING."

[clack]

"It's time to get to know you without a waiter's uniform on" is such a condescending, dick thing for Logan to say to Marty. Marty is not a waiter, he's a fellow Yale student doing some part-time work to help pay for his tuition, just like Rory. Does Rory working in the cafeteria make her a lunch lady?

And I have to say, I don't blame Marty for being confused by the mixed signals sent his way by Rory. She seeks him out, asks him to this intimate evening watching his favorite movies, throws her legs over him -- he has to think that he has at least a chance if he just hangs in there. Maybe Rory will figure out that Logan is a dick.

[Kohola3]

Quote

RORY: Oh, um. I can’t.
RORY: I kind of have company.
RORY: Oh, well –

Hardly constitutes a "clear no" in my book.  Even without the voice inflection.

22 minutes ago, clack said:

"It's time to get to know you without a waiter's uniform on" is such a condescending, dick thing for Logan to say to Marty.

Amen to that.  It was that attitude that made me hate him throughout.  While we never saw him with Odette, I can imagine him having the same approach with her knowing he had Rory as his side piece.   Little twerp.

[Taryn74]

I wish for his sake, Marty'd had the cajones to just tell Rory he'd get out of there and she was free to go on with Logan and crew, and just leave.  Logan was condescending even if his actual words were fine, Rory couldn't keep the 'I'd love to go hang out with you guys but I'm kinda stuck here...' longing out of her voice, and just the fact that she expressed surprise that Logan was back could read to Marty as she had only asked him over because Logan was out of town and she was bored.  It was painfully clear at that point, Marty was second choice and probably always would be.

[Eeksquire]

Ok, while I agree that Rory's elaborate setup absolutely led Marty on, I have to object to the inclusion of "throwing her legs over him".  When I was in college, all of us were all over each other, physically, all the time.  Now, in part, that was a function of the fact that we did not have giant enormous suites like Rory et al have, but instead rooms that were teeny tiny, but in my experience, college students are way more physically affectionate with each other without it being at all romantic or sexual than most adults are.  In the context, Marty might have been hoping that it meant more (and the worse example of this is when Rory fell asleep in his bed), but putting your legs and feet on someone (or having someone do the same to me), in college, to me, was very normal behavior.

[tarotx]

[timimouse]

I also tend to be oblivious when a man is interested in me so I can't say that I blame her too much for that. However, to me, that scene epitomizes why I despise Rory and Logan's relationship... she just jumps as soon as he snaps his fingers. She's so weak for him and I don't think that is healthy. SHE was the one that insisted on hanging out with Marty, even when he tried to keep his distance. She didn't get to see him that often and when Logan showed up at her door she should've simply said "I'm sorry, but I have plans tonight. I will call you tomorrow." You don't drop your friends as soon as the man who you're interested in calls. 

[moonb]

Agree that, in my experience too, college students can be physical with each other, and that Rory could simply be so interested in Logan that she's oblivious to Marty's feelings for her. Clearly Marty's feelings are not her fault, but my problem with her naivete, especially her denials to Marty that Logan's attracted to her, is that it's just too much of a retread of the Jess-Dean triangle. If Rory were 19 and a sophomore at Yale without having had any prior relationships, her attitude might make more sense to me. But her trying to placate one and then the other, and playing dumb about why Jess/Logan is trying to get her attention, yeah, we've seen that before. 

[dubbel zout]

16 minutes ago, moonb said:

Rory could simply be so interested in Logan that she's oblivious to Marty's feelings for her.

Rory knows that Marty likes her in more than a platonic way, but the feelings aren't reciprocal. And she doesn't have the guts to tell him that. She's the worst.

[Kohola3]

Just now, dubbel zout said:

And she doesn't have the guts to tell him that. She's the worst.

Fast forward to poor forgettable Paul.  Didn't learn a damned thing in the intervening years.  For a supposedly smart girl she sure was stupid.

[shron17]

1 hour ago, timimouse said:

However, to me, that scene epitomizes why I despise Rory and Logan's relationship... she just jumps as soon as he snaps his fingers. She's so weak for him and I don't think that is healthy.

I hate this too.  In some scenes it feels like she's letting him tell her what to think--e.g. when he told her she shouldn't be upset about the bridesmaids because she believed that he believed they were broken up.  She went along with it but was angry still for days because she never worked through how she felt.  It's in character for Rory as she's definitely more dependent than independent, and in character for Logan to be forceful like his father.  But I still hate it.  It even holds true in the revival because every time Rory had a problem she had to call Logan to see what she should think.  To me, that's a very unhealthy relationship.  

[DisneyBoy]

I will never be okay with Rory sleeping with Logan hours after watching sad Marty trudge away on the heels of publicly humiliating himself for a chance to spend time with her. The way she treats him it's almost like she assumed he was gay. Legs on his legs is pretty intimate, unless done in public during a silly/goofy hangout/party.

It's totally fine if she wasn't into Marty, but I can't grasp how Awkward As Heck Around Boys Potentially Into Her Rory Gilmore suddenly started begging a "friend" to spend a Saturday night with her, dressed up for it (first time since her date with Dean?), and catered to his every desire to get him on her couch.

 

Also - when did we ever see them really being bosom buddies to the degree Rory claims in that episode?

You are being FAKE Rory. Marty may not have been Mister Exciting or Mr Confident, and he may very well have ended up a dud as a boyfriend, but show the guy some respect and don't toy with him.

In retrospect, I don't get how Rory could stand those dull, moronic dinner guests. How attractive was Logan to justify years of being around folks like that??

This was the beginning of Whory. Not a fair nickname, I know, but I stand by it. She sucked here on out. Entitled much?

Points to Marty for seeing through her and Logan's BS.

[WhosThatGirl]

16 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

Fast forward to poor forgettable Paul.  Didn't learn a damned thing in the intervening years.  For a supposedly smart girl she sure was stupid.

It's clear she didn't. She's engaging in another affair and doing "The Other Woman" thing years after doing it at 19. I'm not sure if Rory regressed or if she just became stunted. 

[Melancholy]

I do think Rory knew Jess and Marty liked her at some point. She kind of phony plays the ingenue but she gave that knowledge away with Jess in the "If you care about me at all, you'll get along with my mother" "What makes you think I care about you?" <Rory had no comeback> (Lol. Jess is fantastic!) With Marty, it was in Rory's unsurprised reaction to Marty's declaration of his feelings with "I like Logan."

That said, my disapproval over Marty only extends to side-eying how she flirted and interacted with him. I can't give her the "it's college" excuse. However I don't see how it's Rory's job to declare her romantic disinterest preemptively. That's awkward. And while I think Rory knew he had a crush, she didn't know its depths and seriousness (to the point of him still being obsessed with her in S7). It's not great that she wasn't more restrained but I think she reasonably and understandably didn't want his undeclared feelings in the way of their friendship and less understandably still wanted him to be her fan. 

[clack]

Marty understood that Rory wasn't into him -- that's why he was (wisely) avoiding her, and why he was such a reluctant participant in their "date".

When he finally confessed his feelings, he wasn't making a move. He was explaining why their friendship had to end. 

[Anela]

I didn't like the way Jess kept her guessing, messing with her boyfriend, until she got dumped. then he dumped the girl he was seeing, to date Rory. 

[hippielamb]

On 1/17/2017 at 2:28 PM, shron17 said:

I hate this too.  In some scenes it feels like she's letting him tell her what to think--e.g. when he told her she shouldn't be upset about the bridesmaids because she believed that he believed they were broken up.  She went along with it but was angry still for days because she never worked through how she felt.  It's in character for Rory as she's definitely more dependent than independent, and in character for Logan to be forceful like his father.  But I still hate it.  It even holds true in the revival because every time Rory had a problem she had to call Logan to see what she should think.  To me, that's a very unhealthy relationship.  

Logan is good at talking his way out of things. He did it first when he invited her to the poker game, and then again over the bridesmaids debacle. He outwits Rory with his convoluted logic and she agrees with him.

I thought Rory calling Logan in the revival was to show that they had an intimacy that went beyond the bedroom. She's confiding in him about work and her fight with Lorelai. We don't see her do any of that with the invisible Paul. Maybe that's a generous reading of it, as I like their relationship in the revival. 

[shron17]

5 hours ago, hippielamb said:

I thought Rory calling Logan in the revival was to show that they had an intimacy that went beyond the bedroom. She's confiding in him about work and her fight with Lorelai. We don't see her do any of that with the invisible Paul. Maybe that's a generous reading of it, as I like their relationship in the revival. 

That makes sense too.  I agree Logan is very supportive of Rory, in his own way.  But we rarely/never? hear him ask her how she feels about anything, what she wants, etc.  He decides what would make her happy based on his observation of her actions, which is great, but causes him to treat her more like someone he's put up on a pedestal than a person he wants to know and love for who she really is.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

2 hours ago, shron17 said:

That makes sense too.  I agree Logan is very supportive of Rory, in his own way.  But we rarely/never? hear him ask her how she feels about anything, what she wants, etc.  He decides what would make her happy based on his observation of her actions, which is great, but causes him to treat her more like someone he's put up on a pedestal than a person he wants to know and love for who she really is.

I can't agree with this observation because of two reasons. The first time they had sex, he seek her consent three times.  Then there was when she told him she didn't care for their no strings attached arrangement and him agreeing to commit. Those are two very pivotal moments in their relationships where Rory had been the decision maker.

[shron17]

I don't mean asking for her consent before they have sex, more like in talking about everything in their lives.  Like asking how she feels after the dinner with his parents, Mitchum's evaluation, her decision to quit school, her fight with her mom, etc. etc.  He tells her how he sees these things but never asks her, at least that I recall.  It seems like an important part of any long-term relationship that's missing from theirs.  And Logan never mentioned he would probably get an offer for the position in San Francisco until he'd accepted it, picked out a house for them and decided where Rory could work.

2 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Then there was when she told him she didn't care for their no strings attached arrangement and him agreeing to commit.

I hate this scene too.  Logan accuses Rory of coming to him hoping he'll agree to commit, she denies it, he thinks for like 2 seconds and says "okay, I'll do it."  Then instead of insisting that she wasn't trying to force him to commit and thinks he should think it over first, that they could talk about it in a few days, she agrees to go out to celebrate their newly committed relationship and send off the other women who were visiting and calling.  Stupid. After that beginning it was really hard for me to believe their relationship lasted as long as it did.

Edited January 19, 2017 by shron17

[Guest]

I don't think that's necessarily a fair representative of their relationship. Yes, those incidents did happen. However, I remember when she was upset about her parents getting married and he made a point about "do you want to leave so we can talk about it?"  I think there were similar incidents over the phone as well.

[Frelling Tralk]

On 17/01/2017 at 11:47 AM, Melancholy said:

I love that Lorelai is such an advocate for Rory but sometimes her advocacy blinds her to where Rory actually stands in the world and what's best for her. Lorelai arguing "Rory is the most deserving kid in the world! How can you not give her financial aid!" to the Yale financial aid person on the phone is a great example. To say something that out of touch to a person who handles the financial aid for ACTUALLY THOUSANDS of Yale students in far worse financial situations than Rory, who came from public high schools or were on need-based scholarships at their private schools. This isn't a case of Lorelai being over-zealous in advocating for her kid. This is Lorelai being, again, clueless on how college works. It's not getting that every applicant serious about attending *a* university upon graduation from high school needs to apply more than one place all over again. She's very lucky that Emily and Richard have the money and the will to bail her out of these choices. I really hate her after Rory brokers the most reasonable deal to get E/R to pay for FNDs for just RORY attending FNDs for to instead pout at Rory, "Okay, maybe, maybe it is. But just once, just once, I want you to get exactly what you want, and me to get exactly what I want, and them to get NOTHING."

Oh that annoyed me so much, I get that a lot of struggling middle-class people don't realise how comparatively well-off they are, and I'm sure that Lorelai growing up around really rich people played a part in how she viewed her own financial situation, but I really disliked when she made out that it was so outrageous for Rory not to get student loans to fund her education. It's not about how smart or hard-working Rory is, it's about the fact that there are actual poor and desperate people out there that those loans were designed for, that have *no* other options if they want to go to college. Why should Lorelai just assume that Rory deserves a loan over them, even though her mother was well-off enough to own her own home and set up her own business, she'd just received a cheque out of the blue for thousands of dollars from her father, and she certainly could have asked Rory's very rich grandparents to chip in on Rory's college education.

O/T but it annoyed me the same on Gossip Girl when Dan complains that 'we are the needy' after finding out that he wouldn't be getting any loans for Yale, you're really not one of the needy if your father has found enough money to send both his kids to an expensive private school. And Rory is a girl who came from money to such an extent that her grandparents named an entire building after her at Yale, yet Lorelai genuinally believed that Rory was still poor enough to quality for financial aid?

[Ambrosefolly]

On 1/11/2017 at 1:49 PM, Frelling Tralk said:

I agree, it was really mostly Colin that kept insulting Marty in our first meeting with them (and Logan even tells him not to be an ass), all Logan does is ask if Marty is still interested in bartending for them and throws in a compliment on Marty making a kick-ass margarita. 

And if Logan had made any kind of reference to realising that the dinner is a little out of Marty's budget, so he's happy to cover for him, then I would totally understand Marty feeling patronised in that episode. As it was I felt like Logan handled it in the most gracious way possible when he just said that hey it was me that invited the two of you, so it's my treat. It looked far more desperate and humiliating to leave them all waiting while Marty dashes out to the street insisting that he'll get the money. I can understand him being defensive around them as a group because of Colin had spoken to him in the past, but I also felt like there was a lot of male ego involved when it came to Logan, and not wanting to accept money from him in front of Rory 

 

Marty vs Logan, my observation is that Logan has a much more alpha personality than the rest of the LoD brigade, which doesn't necessarily mean that a guy is a bully but is clearly shown to be in charge. He has no malice towards Marty and is so socially skilled and charming that he can come across as very complimentary but also remind Marty that he is more or less a servant, and this dominance goes so far as that he could gently admonish Colin for being too much of a jerk with out push back from him to keep Colin below him in the social hierarchy. The show unconsciously showed this seeing Colin and Finn occasionally strike out while Logan seemed to sleep with everyone under the sun during his brief separation from  Rory.

He might have come across as very gracious to Marty offering to pay his meal and I do think he was genuine to an extent, but it was also a  display the ease he has to resources and how easily he could dominate someone less social adapt like Marty. 

You can see Logan lose his composure when he mets Jess. Jess exists outside the traditional social hierarchy and is much more secure in himself than Marty. So while he was easily able to (no pun intended) ace Marty out when it came to competing over Rory, despite Marty having been a good friend to her over a year, Jess he couldn't easily shake, despite Marty and Jess probably coming from equally shitty backgrounds. (It should also be noted that Jess was able to steal Rory away from Dean, despite Dean being Rory's first love. )Jess refused to let Logan pay for him (even initial saying he wasn't even hungry) and rejected the second drink and when he figured out Logan was really trying to do, he simply walked out and told Rory he should have done it off the bat. So Logan's jealous towards people like Marty and Jess finally bubbled out in earnest for the first time, because Jess managed to get Rory on his side even if she didn't leave with her because he took the high road. As Logan said as much, he might on the surface seem to have every advantage in life, but he can't truly chart his own path while Jess wrote and published a short novel, and Marty, who has absolutely no obligation to fulfill any expectation of his own family (because they are full of sluts and losers) will have a degree from the same prestigious university and all those jobs he needed to do will probably give him a stronger work ethic than Logan. 

The odd thing is that if Marty didn't have the same self esteem issues Christopher has, he would be the best match for Rory as he combined the the better qualities of Dean, Jess, Luke, and Richard, with the added bonus of having a real friendship with Rory starting out. It was telling that Rory and Marty showed up why before their first class started and read and Rory later tried to walk over to him at that dorm party if she hadn't been intercepted by the DAR twins.

[shron17]

On 1/19/2017 at 4:05 PM, deaja said:

However, I remember when she was upset about her parents getting married and he made a point about "do you want to leave so we can talk about it?"  I think there were similar incidents over the phone as well.

Yes, Logan could be very supportive and there were times when he asked how Rory was doing.  And saying Rory called Logan in the revival when she was upset to see what she thought was a bit of an exaggeration.  I was just thinking that the period of time Logan treated Rory best was when he was working for his dad and doing well, doing what he'd been raised to do.  But then I remembered his British co-worker Bobbi.  Were we really supposed to believe it would never occur to him to mention Bobbi was a woman?  And he asked Rory "will you come celebrate with me tonight?" instead of us.  It made sense that his co-workers were there too, of course, but he should have let Rory know when he invited her.  It was the same in Say Something when he told Rory to come over without mentioning he had a group there playing poker.  He liked to withhold information and keep Rory a little off balance giving him the upper hand.

2 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

my observation is that Logan has a much more alpha personality than the rest of the LoD brigade, which doesn't necessarily mean that a guy is a bully but is clearly shown to be in charge.

I agree, and realized this is what bugs me in Rory and Logan's relationship as well.  Logan likes to be in charge, and when he's in his element (closing a deal, getting the job in SF) he arranges everything seemingly without even realizing he's making decisions that others close to him might want to be involved in.  Even that the proposal had to be all or nothing was very alpha; Rory clearly wanted to continue their relationship long-distance and see what happened.  I know that kind of relationship works well for some people, even though it forces one person to be dependent on the other.  But for Rory, who grew up with her mom paddling her own kayak, it doesn't seem like a good fit long-term.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

4 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Marty vs Logan, my observation is that Logan has a much more alpha personality than the rest of the LoD brigade, which doesn't necessarily mean that a guy is a bully but is clearly shown to be in charge. He has no malice towards Marty and is so socially skilled and charming that he can come across as very complimentary but also remind Marty that he is more or less a servant, and this dominance goes so far as that he could gently admonish Colin for being too much of a jerk with out push back from him to keep Colin below him in the social hierarchy. The show unconsciously showed this seeing Colin and Finn occasionally strike out while Logan seemed to sleep with everyone under the sun during his brief separation from  Rory.

He might have come across as very gracious to Marty offering to pay his meal and I do think he was genuine to an extent, but it was also a  display the ease he has to resources and how easily he could dominate someone less social adapt like Marty. 

You can see Logan lose his composure when he mets Jess. Jess exists outside the traditional social hierarchy and is much more secure in himself than Marty. So while he was easily able to (no pun intended) ace Marty out when it came to competing over Rory, despite Marty having been a good friend to her over a year, Jess he couldn't easily shake, despite Marty and Jess probably coming from equally shitty backgrounds. (It should also be noted that Jess was able to steal Rory away from Dean, despite Dean being Rory's first love. )Jess refused to let Logan pay for him (even initial saying he wasn't even hungry) and rejected the second drink and when he figured out Logan was really trying to do, he simply walked out and told Rory he should have done it off the bat. So Logan's jealous towards people like Marty and Jess finally bubbled out in earnest for the first time, because Jess managed to get Rory on his side even if she didn't leave with her because he took the high road. As Logan said as much, he might on the surface seem to have every advantage in life, but he can't truly chart his own path while Jess wrote and published a short novel, and Marty, who has absolutely no obligation to fulfill any expectation of his own family (because they are full of sluts and losers) will have a degree from the same prestigious university and all those jobs he needed to do will probably give him a stronger work ethic than Logan. 

The odd thing is that if Marty didn't have the same self esteem issues Christopher has, he would be the best match for Rory as he combined the the better qualities of Dean, Jess, Luke, and Richard, with the added bonus of having a real friendship with Rory starting out. It was telling that Rory and Marty showed up why before their first class started and read and Rory later tried to walk over to him at that dorm party if she hadn't been intercepted by the DAR twins.

This is a very insightful analysis of the three guys. I am so Marty went the scorned man route because he and Rory were good friends. I do respect his cutting ties with her once he realized she never going to return his feelings. He wasn't obligated to remain friends with her and she wasn't obligated to return feelings she didn't have. 

I agree with the Jess stuff but I do I factor where Logan was emotionally that evening. He's just gotten back from being dragged to goodness knows where and first thing he does is t go see his girlfriend  only to find her visiting with an ex-boyfriend. Now I don't think Rory should've run it by him but he was taken by surprise. All of that led to evening going to hell.

Logan's characterization fascinated me  and I notice more nuances on rewatch. He gets everything that comes with being mega rich at the expense of his independence and parents who have no fucks to give of his wellbeing. 

[TimetravellingBW]

On 1/22/2017 at 9:00 AM, Ambrosefolly said:

Marty vs Logan, my observation is that Logan has a much more alpha personality than the rest of the LoD brigade, which doesn't necessarily mean that a guy is a bully but is clearly shown to be in charge. He has no malice towards Marty and is so socially skilled and charming that he can come across as very complimentary but also remind Marty that he is more or less a servant, and this dominance goes so far as that he could gently admonish Colin for being too much of a jerk with out push back from him to keep Colin below him in the social hierarchy. The show unconsciously showed this seeing Colin and Finn occasionally strike out while Logan seemed to sleep with everyone under the sun during his brief separation from  Rory.

He might have come across as very gracious to Marty offering to pay his meal and I do think he was genuine to an extent, but it was also a  display the ease he has to resources and how easily he could dominate someone less social adapt like Marty. 

You can see Logan lose his composure when he mets Jess. Jess exists outside the traditional social hierarchy and is much more secure in himself than Marty. So while he was easily able to (no pun intended) ace Marty out when it came to competing over Rory, despite Marty having been a good friend to her over a year, Jess he couldn't easily shake, despite Marty and Jess probably coming from equally shitty backgrounds. (It should also be noted that Jess was able to steal Rory away from Dean, despite Dean being Rory's first love.) Jess refused to let Logan pay for him (even initial saying he wasn't even hungry) and rejected the second drink and when he figured out Logan was really trying to do, he simply walked out and told Rory he should have done it off the bat. 

The odd thing is that if Marty didn't have the same self esteem issues Christopher has, he would be the best match for Rory as he combined the the better qualities of Dean, Jess, Luke, and Richard, with the added bonus of having a real friendship with Rory starting out. It was telling that Rory and Marty showed up why before their first class started and read and Rory later tried to walk over to him at that dorm party if she hadn't been intercepted by the DAR twins.

That's such a great analysis of Logan and his interaction with other guys. He's incredibly dominant, used to being the most powerful, important guy in the room and enjoys putting others down to assert that. (I would argue that behaviour does lean into bullying sometimes, just a subtle, manipulative form. The classic routine of a bully to make a cruel joke about someone and then telling the victim to lighten up because they're just kidding seems similar to how Logan treats Marty: As you said, outwardly pleasant but letting Marty knows he's lesser. And him offering to pay for dinner in front of everyone and lazily chastising Colin's remarks played into that). 

The Jess/Logan stuff was spot on because Jess is so defined by not giving a toss about what anyone else thinks. In early seasons that was negative, but mature!Jess showed that to his advantage in that Logan could needle and try to squash him as much as he liked but Jess didn't respect Logan enough to pay any attention.

It's an interesting contrast that both Marty and Jess had dinners with Logan where he asserted his dominance and then voiced to Rory how uncomfortable they were with him. With Marty the conversation became more about his feelings, and a "do you want me or Logan" situation and while Rory had no obligation to return his feelings it actually sidestepped the other issue of Logan/his friends being not-great, snobbish people. I wonder how the conversation would have gone down if Marty hadn't mentioned his crush but confronted Rory with "Logan and his friends are pretty horrible, why do you like them?" Rory might have still admitted she liked Logan but that would have forced her to acknowledge she was condoning that behaviour. Marty could have just said didn't want to be around people like that, including her. 

Meanwhile Jess confronted her a lot more forcefully, called Logan out but kept the focus on Rory's actions. Rory had to examine herself and why she went along with Logan douchebaggery. And unlike the Marty case where she submitted to Logan's control of the situation, she confronted Logan for being a douche. (Granted Logan behaved worse compared to the dinner with Marty but she'd already seen how Logan/Finn/Colin treated Marty in their introductory scene and at this point was deciding that was ok with her. Also as you said - Logan behaved more poorly with Jess than Marty because he didn't have control with Jess. It's easy to be gracious when no one's resisting you). 

I actually wonder if Logan ever brought Jess up again? Did he know that he helped trigger Rory's big move back to Yale and their quasi-break up? From Logan's perspective Rory's ex shows up, confronts Logan, Rory talks to Jess and comes back to argue with him, they have a massive fight and Logan thinks they're broken up?  

I agree Marty suited Rory best - and that's exactly why the writers never wrote a relationship. They meshed in temperament, were on the same intellectual level, both the grandparents and Lorelai liked him...no drama there at all!

Edited January 26, 2017 by TimetravellingBW

[Kohola3]

Wonderful post!  What SHE said doubled!!

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, TimetravellingBW said:

He might have come across as very gracious to Marty offering to pay his meal and I do think he was genuine to an extent, but it was also a  display the ease he has to resources and how easily he could dominate someone less social adapt like Marty. 

 

1 hour ago, TimetravellingBW said:

As you said, outwardly pleasant but letting Marty knows he's lesser. And him offering to pay for dinner in front of everyone and lazily chastising Colin's remarks played into that.

 

That's why I HATE the whole dinner fiasco.  If Logan had really wanted to be kind and gracious and not embarrass Marty he should have said everyone's dinner was on him that night, as soon as Colin brought up the price.  

Colin:  Okay. I got it. Everybody owes seventy-five bucks. Pony up, please, so we can get the hell out of here.

Logan could have easily jumped in at that point with:  Oh, hey, did I forget to mention, dinner's on me tonight?  Let me take care of this and we can head to (wherever).

Pointing out - publicly - that you're going to generously pay for the one person whom you know can't afford to pay for himself, is neither kind nor gracious.  It's humiliating.

And while we're on the topic, this also really bugs me -

Logan:  Come on, Marty. If you’re going to be hanging with Ace like this, it’s time I get to know you without a waiter’s uniform on. 

Last I checked, Marty was friends with Rory long before you came on the scene, jackhole.

[TimetravellingBW]

43 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

That's why I HATE the whole dinner fiasco.  If Logan had really wanted to be kind and gracious and not embarrass Marty he should have said everyone's dinner was on him that night, as soon as Colin brought up the price.  

Colin:  Okay. I got it. Everybody owes seventy-five bucks. Pony up, please, so we can get the hell out of here.

Logan could have easily jumped in at that point with:  Oh, hey, did I forget to mention, dinner's on me tonight?  Let me take care of this and we can head to (wherever).

Pointing out - publicly - that you're going to generously pay for the one person whom you know can't afford to pay for himself, is neither kind nor gracious.  It's humiliating.

And while we're on the topic, this also really bugs me -

Logan:  Come on, Marty. If you’re going to be hanging with Ace like this, it’s time I get to know you without a waiter’s uniform on. 

Last I checked, Marty was friends with Rory long before you came on the scene, jackhole.

Ugh, I was just looking at the transcript as well and Logan is worse than I remembered - like you said, acting like Marty is the new guy in being friends with Rory and also deliberately making comments about his waiters uniform. Any normal person would have said "hey, you're friends with Rory so it would be nice to get to know you." Instead Logan made a point of reminding Marty that he's essentially Logan's servant (Logan's words from before) and Logan is being gracious enough to allow him to be in presence outside of work.

In fact that entire exchange with Logan turning up makes him look like a controlling douche:

LOGAN: Just rolled in.

RORY: So, how was it? Was it fun?

LOGAN: No, very dull. Let’s not talk about it. We’re all going to China 
Palace for food. Grab your coat, let’s go.

RORY: Oh, um. I can’t.

LOGAN: What? Sure you can. Come on. I missed you, let me buy you a fortune cookie.

RORY: I kind of have company.

LOGAN: Really, anyone I know? [He looks in over Rory’s shoulder. Marty stands up.] Hey, Marty, good to see you.

MARTY: Uh, yeah. You too.

LOGAN: Well, you come too. The more the merrier.

RORY: Oh, well –

LOGAN: Come on, Marty. If you’re going to be hanging with Ace like this, it’s time I get to know you without a waiter’s uniform on. Let’s go. Car’s waiting outside. [He leaves.]

Logan doesn't for a second consider what Rory or Marty want to do, if they have plans or don't want to come. He orders them to come with him and then leaves expecting them to obey his command. (Which unfortunately they do). Who does that? Don't people normally call or text with "hey going out tonight, want to come?" or if friends do turn up at your door would at least be like "hey, I know it's last minute but want to grab dinner?" Especially as it wasn't Logan just wanting to hang with Rory, it was dragging her along to pre-organized plans with his friends. (Also, how on earth did Rory find this attractive or acceptable?) 

Plus with the bill issue it's obvious Colin was dividing it equally between everyone rather than people paying for the individual items they ordered. Which is tale as old as time in awkwardness regarding different wealth. (FRIENDS did that great episode on it and in college almost everyone I know has a "pay for what you ordered" approach because hey, we're students). But it just shows how out of touch and self-absorbed the LDB/Logan/Finn/Colin bunch are that they unilaterally decide to make everyone pay $75 and wouldn't even consider people who aren't/can't spend that much on dinner. Marty presumably ordered the cheapest thing on the menu and that's why he was so surprised when Colin announced payment. He footed the bill for whatever overpriced things everyone else ate.

Edited January 27, 2017 by TimetravellingBW

[Ambrosefolly]

Considering Rory and Marty had downed snacks and a pizza just before (I believe I saw a pizza during their movie marathon),I can't imagine either of them being too hungry and ordering a full dinner. 

Another difference is that Marty viewed himself as a servant. While he told himself that his waiting and catering gigs were a means to an end, and he probably realized that once he left Yale, that isn't what he felt like at the time. When Rory first met Logan, Marty should have been, "Damn straight, I do make a kick ass drink!" As much as I disliked Jess, Jess never let himself be defined by whatever job or income he had. Jess realized it was what was and those were the cards he was dealt with. I think if he was in Marty's position, he would have forcefully told Logan they already had a pizza so he was beg out, if anyone of LoDB gave him shade for being poor, he would remind all of them he had more in common with their ancestors that built the fortunes they currently enjoy than them. He never made his book more than it was, just that he set out to write and publish something, which deeply impressed Rory.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Ambrosefolly

[shron17]

14 hours ago, TimetravellingBW said:

I wonder how the conversation would have gone down if Marty hadn't mentioned his crush but confronted Rory with "Logan and his friends are pretty horrible, why do you like them?" Rory might have still admitted she liked Logan but that would have forced her to acknowledge she was condoning that behaviour. Marty could have just said didn't want to be around people like that, including her. 

That would have been great.  Rory didn't treat Marty fairly, but when you put it together with the LDB episode and Rory being rescued by Logan and his friends at the party it's easier to understand her attraction to the group.  They understood and knew how to deal with things such as the Yale male party where it would be a completely foreign concept to Dean or Marty.  Marty probably knew of her grandparents lifestyle and thought that was what she wanted for her future. 

[clack]

Season 7 missed an opportunity, when Marty was brought back, for Rory to be confronted on just how fucked up that whole situation was.

Rory knew Marty was avoiding her, and had probably guessed why. Her response was to cajole Marty into an intimate, just-we-two evening, an evening where she expended a great amount of effort (not to mention money) -- dressing in a Harpo costume, putting up Marx Bros. posters on the walls, preparing snacks -- to woo Marty back.

And then Logan shows up, crooks his little finger, and Rory abandons her intimate Marty evening mid-movie.

But who's the wronged party? According to season 7, it's Rory.