All Episodes Talk: Lorelai and Rory and the People They Love

[HeySandyStrange]

1 hour ago, Miss Scarlet said:

Something I've always wondered about -- is ASP aware of how narcissistic and unlikable Rory and Lorelai are? Are they written this way on purpose, to be more complex or relatable?

To be honest, I don't think ASP can be given that kind of credit to have purposely written Lorelai and Rory the way they are. Going by her public persona, ASP herself comes off as full of herself, immature, and obtuse, so it isn't a huge surprise to me that Lor and Ror have many, many undesirable qualities yet are so praised and adored within the show. It is pretty obvious to me that they are both writer avatars and even sometimes borderline Mary Sues, so I suspect ASP has a hard time admitting these characters aren't perfect little snowflakes. Personally, my issue isn't that both of them are flawed, it is that they rarely reap what they sow. It isn't relatable to me that Lorelai and Rory can be so arrogant and selfish and almost never receive any criticism or blowback for it. It took me out of the show more then once.

Though it isn't too unrealistic even by real life standards that deeply flawed people can still be liked and adored by the people around them. Attractiveness, wittiness, surface sweetness, and vivaciousness can go a long way into masking some serious flaws.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Despite their flaws, Rory and Lorelai are good people. They aren't one dimensional in that they are one way or another. It is okay for them to be loved by their very flawed family and friends.

[junienmomo]

11 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Despite their flaws, Rory and Lorelai are good people. They aren't one dimensional in that they are one way or another. It is okay for them to be loved by their very flawed family and friends.

I'm currently leaning away from that opinion. It's really the selfishness and special snowflake attitude that pushes me into the not good people group. Also the lack of consequences for so much bad behavior.

[Kohola3]

14 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Despite their flaws, Rory and Lorelai are good people.

I don't htink that they are intentionally evil. But they are so totally self-involved that they don't see anything around them except in terms of how it affects them. The only except I can come up with is how Lorelai  jumped in to help Luke with his uncle's funeral and Rory helped out at the diner.  That was totally in support of a friend with no payback to either of them.  They were sympathetic when Cinnamon died.  Other than that, pretty much crickets.

[Melancholy]

1 hour ago, Kohola3 said:

I don't htink that they are intentionally evil. But they are so totally self-involved that they don't see anything around them except in terms of how it affects them. The only except I can come up with is how Lorelai  jumped in to help Luke with his uncle's funeral and Rory helped out at the diner.  That was totally in support of a friend with no payback to either of them.  They were sympathetic when Cinnamon died.  Other than that, pretty much crickets.

I criticize Lorelai and Rory a lot. I think they're very flawed women. However, I do end up liking them despite it all. It's partly *because* of the other nice things that they do. Lorelai putting up with her blind date with *Rune* so that Sookie has enough support to start dating Jackson. Rory being kind to Paris and helping Paris through any of her social challenges from dating to putting in a good word with the Puffs through the years of Paris being a Holy Terror to Rory. Lorelai feeling enough empathy for Taylor, of all people, that she'd convince people to vote for Taylor so he felt less humiliated after Lorelai successfully campaigned against Taylor. Even though Rory had a big ole crush, defending, tutoring, and encouraging Jess even before Rory ever consciously considered dating him and then, refusing to let the town and her family make him into the bad guy and her into the victim because they got into a car accident and then, reaching out to Luke to tell him that she doesn't consider Jess the bad guy. The times that Lorelai reaches out to her parents and helps them, beyond the money-obligations, out of compassion whether it's sitting with Emily at the end of Presenting Lorelai Gilmore or spending days helping her dad set up his business. Even though Rory takes more joy in her connection to her grandparents, all of the time that she went out of her way appreciate them and help them from looking after Emily after Richard's death to trying to get them back together after the separation to taking Economics even though the subject didn't interest her to root for Richard as a new professor. I'm pretty much never inclined to reward Lorelai for being generous to Chris, even though she is, because I think it's fraught with inappropriate romantic interest. However, I think Rory shows her goodness dramatically when she's kind to Chris even though he was horrible to her- backing down from her righteously angry refusal to associate with him out of sympathy for his father dying, trying to reach out and comfort him when he's sulking at the vow renewal, even as she's telling him that he can't contact Lorelai because of his habit of ruining anything, doing him the kindness of saying that he doesn't mean to ruin things and offering her own help with Gigi and Chris's life instead of Lorelai's. There's other examples. They're self-centered and entitled- but I think they're both good at heart.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Melancholy

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

I love the use of music on this show.

Watching bits and pieces of season two. The song playing while Jess was first touring Stars Hallow for the first time. it goes something like, "This is hell" 

 

And the fashion show during "Like Mother, Like Daughter. I love Kelly Bishop's dance moves. 

The introduction of Francine and the Puffs. What a moronic name for an iconic secret society.

Rory standing up to headmaster Charleston. 

I loved it all.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[Guest]

This is Hell as Jess walked around Stars Hollow is probably the most effective use of music in a tv show ever.  :)

[hippielamb]

I liked Angst in My Pants, when Lorelai pours coffee on Lane's wedding dress. She's doing Lane a favour, and the song also tells us her state of mind. 

 

I hope it doesn't show/it'll go away

It's just a passing phase/it'll go away

Give it a 100 years/it won't go away

I've got angst in my pants 

[Eeksquire]

Does anyone know if there is a list somewhere (official or not) that lists all of the songs in the show? I had (foolishly) thought that the song information would be included SOMEWHERE (like in the credits in movies), whether on the DVDs or in the credits or ... somewhere, but as far as I can tell that's not true.  I wish there were some kind of clearinghouse for this information, because I am music-illiterate and wish I could track down this kind of thing in an organized way (not just for GG, but shows generally).  Thoughts?

[tarotx]

There's this that I found just now googling but I have no idea how extensive or reliable it is yet.

http://uptv.com/shows/gilmore-girls/news/gilmore-girls-music-by-season-and-episode/

51 minutes ago, Eeksquire said:

Does anyone know if there is a list somewhere (official or not) that lists all of the songs in the show? I had (foolishly) thought that the song information would be included SOMEWHERE (like in the credits in movies), whether on the DVDs or in the credits or ... somewhere, but as far as I can tell that's not true.  I wish there were some kind of clearinghouse for this information, because I am music-illiterate and wish I could track down this kind of thing in an organized way (not just for GG, but shows generally).  Thoughts?

 

[shron17]

Try here.  There is a link at the top for episodes that lists scripts and music and offers a little more detail.  I love the music on this show too, and now like a bunch of artists I hadn't heard of--Sam Phillips, Grant Lee Phillips, Sparks, Pernice Brothers, etc.  One of my all time favorite music moments in the show is the first scene in the pilot to "There She Goes" by The La's.

[Enigma X]

As much of music snobs I found the characters to be at times, I must say that their music interests was almost identical to my own.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Paris just KNOWS that Luke is running a sex and drug ring out of dinner. Also the biker's pit.

Paris knows all.

Richard in Stars Hallow is an incredibly sad episode. Lorelai's has as little tolerance for her parents as she accuses them of having for her. Sometimes her behavior towards them borderline on cruelty. I am not saying her going off on Richard is, but her behavior from the start, acting so put upon, and then going off on him was so selfish. I felt so bad for poor Richard.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[SlackerInc]

On 1/1/2017 at 2:28 PM, HeySandyStrange said:

To be honest, I don't think ASP can be given that kind of credit to have purposely written Lorelai and Rory the way they are. Going by her public persona, ASP herself comes off as full of herself, immature, and obtuse, so it isn't a huge surprise to me that Lor and Ror have many, many undesirable qualities yet are so praised and adored within the show. It is pretty obvious to me that they are both writer avatars and even sometimes borderline Mary Sues, so I suspect ASP has a hard time admitting these characters aren't perfect little snowflakes.

I don't think this is right.  If it were, Emily wouldn't be given lines that are so painfully on target.  She'd still rage at Lorelei, but her complaints would come across as absurdly prejudiced, the ravings of an out-of-touch high society WASP.  The incisiveness of the lines she is actually given to hurl at Lorelei prove to me that ASP does understand how flawed Lorelei is.  (How exactly she feels about Rory is less clear.)

[WhosThatGirl]

15 minutes ago, SlackerInc said:

I don't think this is right.  If it were, Emily wouldn't be given lines that are so painfully on target.  She'd still rage at Lorelei, but her complaints would come across as absurdly prejudiced, the ravings of an out-of-touch high society WASP.  The incisiveness of the lines she is actually given to hurl at Lorelei prove to me that ASP does understand how flawed Lorelei is.  (How exactly she feels about Rory is less clear.)

Yup. At least Lorelei got her comeuppance, of some sort from Emily. I think I said it before but on reruns as of late, I am always struck by how unkind Lorelei was to Emily and Richard and yes she was an unreliable narrator in her stories of them. It's more clear when we saw the flashback episode when Lorelei left of her own violation. 

I'm unsure with Rory as well. Rory's unsuccessful in the revival of course but I kept getting a feeling that we as viewers were supposed to view as Rory's still great, it's just that these magazines aren't flgiving her enough of a chance and also.. HER STORY IS GOING TO BE BIGGER THAN ANY STORY SHE COULD WRITE IN A MAGAZINE ANYWAY. I could be wrong in this but I don't know. She seemed so non serious when she went to that interview in her special interview dress and her views on Logan's fiancé were written as if Rory was the wronged party. So I don't know.

[HeySandyStrange]

1 hour ago, SlackerInc said:

I don't think this is right.  If it were, Emily wouldn't be given lines that are so painfully on target.  She'd still rage at Lorelei, but her complaints would come across as absurdly prejudiced, the ravings of an out-of-touch high society WASP.  The incisiveness of the lines she is actually given to hurl at Lorelei prove to me that ASP does understand how flawed Lorelei is.  (How exactly she feels about Rory is less clear.)

Agree to disagree. I do think that Emily is often painted as a snotty, controlling 1%er and Lorelai is the rebel free-spirit, at least at the beginning. Emily did evolve from that, in part due to Kelly's awesome performance imo. I will agree that Lorelai is less of a Mary Sue then Rory. The writers always seemed more willing to paint in Lorelai in a slightly less then perfect light.  I don't know why Rory got stuck with the special snowflake syndrome. Maybe ASP&co identified more with Rory or maybe they refused to see Rory as anything but the sweet, quiet, smart wunderkind she started out as despite how much her written behavior veered from that.

[Melancholy]

See, I think it's far more likely that ASP was aware of Rory's flaws than Lorelai's- which I've always felt was the case. In the series, Rory has these storylines which are clearly her "breaking bad"- sleeping with Dean, stealing a boat and dropping out of Yale, even her thing with Jess. The start of those stories were always thrilling to me, partly because the show was clear on her flaws. It's just the endings usually sputtered as Rory got back in line with little consequences. I think the series is clear-eyed that Rory done fucked up- there just may be a disagreement between the Palladinos and the fans on how to fundamentally label her as a person because of those screw-ups. Lorelai, protagonist of the series, delivered barn-burners of speeches criticizing Rory for being The Other Woman in terms of Lindsey/Dean or for stringing a guy along even though she's clearly into another and kissed said guy in terms of Dean/Jess (and she only kissed Jess once.) Yes, Lorelai didn't get angry at Rory in the Revival for pulling worse versions of what she in the OS but none of that convinces me that the Palladnos fundamentally changed their moral positions on infidelity from the OS to the Revival. The series paints unplanned pregnancies as a result of irresponsibly having sex without birth control as a big mistake- it just says that it's a mistake that people can correct by making better choices further down the road. But Rory still made a mistake. In Rory's professional life, Sandee out and out criticizes her and still has a point even though Sandee is also unprofessional and bitchy. And Rory loses the phone fight with Sandee and basically concedes the point that her pretensions of needing three phones is ridiculous. 

With Lorelai, I actually think Lorelai was a better person in the Revival than large sections of the OS, especially S6-7. Finally, she was starting to grow up in key areas of life. Her empathy for Emily and patience in therapy was a step forward. The fact that she maintained a cohabitation relationship with Luke for the last ten years and the stability, maintained love, and partnership in their lives is an adult achievement, even the major-life-communication between them remained flawed. I think Lorelai *and* Michele had to ultimately grow up to sit down and have a grown-up conversation about what they expect from each other and for Lorelai to make a real business move partly because she was listening to Michele. However, she still made some big ass mistakes- but I don't have the same confidence that the Revival regards them as a mistake. I think it's terrible that Lorelai disappeared off to do Wild, leaving Luke in Stars Hallow puttering around their house, taking care of Paul Anka, probably cooking for the Inn all the while he's left hanging on whether they're broken up. However while the Palladinos have written enough stories criticizing infidelity that I feel it's their position, I actually confused on whether they think it's acceptable to leave long-time romantic partners with so little stability as long as it's in pursuit of DRAMATIC self-help and life makeovers. Sandee got to yell at Rory and they had a Rory-losing-fight on the phone. However, a whole line of celebrity chefs just timidly accepted Lorelai firing them over nothing like this is the way of the world when it's not. I mean, I guess the OS does criticize Emily serially firing maids over nothing as much as her own unhappiness and arbitrary standards. However- does the series consider that only a problem with a hireee is a poor foreign maid and not a problem when it's a celebrity chef who'll land on their feet? I mean, I get that POV but I also think Lorelai was bitchy to unfairly hire these celebrity chefs on a contract but then, treat them like crap when they get to the Dragonfly. Luke's righteous rant about the treatment of the Sookie-substitues below is terrific but it's the comedic end to a deeper fight about their problems:

Luke: And now we're in the middle of my diner arguing and everyone's gone outside with their food and drinks. 

Lorelai: Where are you going?

Luke: Where? I've got muffins in the oven at the Inn for breakfast tomorrow because Sandra Lee called and cancelled because she talked to Ina Garten who said 'Don't go to the Dragonfly Inn because it's awful and Sandra's had a tough enough couple of years and she doesn't need to be embarrassed by you! 

Edited January 3, 2017 by Melancholy

[Eeksquire]

Thank you @tarotx and @shron17 for the music sites - you guys rule at life!

[JaggedLilPill]

I’ve been thinking about the topic of Lorelai and Rory being not good people vs good people, and while I know it’s incredibly subjective based on personal experiences and life, etc, I do think at their core, they are good hearted people. I think about all the crappy people I’ve come across - especially last year - and actually, Lorelai and Rory don’t even make it anywhere close to the top of that list.

Yes, they’re selfish and self-centered and obnoxious, but I do think if anyone in Lorelai’s life called her at 2 in the morning, she’d be there. Sure, she’d probably gripe/whine about it later or make an inappropriate joke to break the tension/ice surrounding the circumstances of the call, but she’d be there. She gave Ruin/Rune a job at the inn and allowed him to live in the shed because Sookie and Jackson asked her to do that, even though the guy was terrible. She also let Lane’s band practice in her garage without charging them anything (although Lorelai does remind Zach of this after Rory stays at their apartment for a few days). She was also incredibly patient when it came to Paris and even had those weekly or monthly meetings with her during Rory taking a hiatus from Yale. Perhaps there were ulterior motives i.e. her hoping that Paris would bring up Rory, but still. As much as I love Liza’s portrayal of Paris, if I had to deal with someone like that IRL, I’d probably run for the hills. I also remember back in “Kill Me Now” when the twins who were getting married were arguing about the flowers, Lorelai jumped in and said she had made the decision to go with whatever color it was despite it being their mother’s choice. I guess you could argue that it’s work and it’s that whole “the customer is always right” thing, but some people can’t even fake it when they’re in a customer service type of role.

Rory is a little more difficult for me, but I do think she’s good. She’s just very very flawed. As is Lorelai.

The thing about Lorelai is to me, she’s not secure in herself at all. She is weird, and thus she uses her wit as a defense mechanism. Get them to laugh with you rather than at you or even laugh at you while you’re laughing too. She’s always in defense mode waiting for someone to criticize her. The problem is she overcompensates with her humor to the point of being rude and even hurtful at times. She has these walls up with mostly everyone - including Rory to a point - so that she won’t get hurt. I’m sure it goes back to her childhood and feeling resentful of Richard and Emily for even putting her in those type of positions, like private school with kids who didn’t “get” Lorelai and probably did make fun of her. I don’t think Richard and Emily meant for Lorelai to feel isolated and alone. They were just doing what they thought was best. Send Lorelai to good schools, surround her with the “right” type of people, and eventually, she’ll get with the program. But that was never going to be Lorelai. With or without Rory, she’s not meant for that world. She likes kooky and quirky, hence her love of Stars Hollow.

So, yeah. Bad people? Not so much. Lacking perspective? Absolutely. But I like to think come the revival that Lorelai has grown up.

[amensisterfriend]

JaggedLilPill, that is one of the most interesting, insightful, potentially perspective-altering analyses of Lorelai that I've ever been lucky enough to read! 

[JaggedLilPill]

7 minutes ago, amensisterfriend said:

JaggedLilPill, that is one of the most interesting, insightful, potentially perspective-altering analyses of Lorelai that I've ever been lucky enough to read! 

Thanks! Yeah, I guess I've been thinking about it for a while, why Lorelai is the way she is. On paper, you'd think she has it all. She's funny, pretty, intelligent, people seemed charmed by her, so what's the problem? The problem is her own self image. Again, she's weird. Nothing wrong with being weird. I'm a self-proclaimed weird person. In a way, I also take the Lorelai humor approach, only I like to think I have more of a read on people to know when they're no longer finding it funny. But Lorelai, I do think she truly gets flustered and doesn't know how to calm herself down and so she talks and says comments that leave people going, "Wtf?"

It makes sense why she tried to be the wild child as a teen. Being wild and even troubled is better than weird. And most of the time, she can get away with it. SH is so colorful and insane at times that she seems sane compared to the rest of them. But with Emily and Richard? Yeah, she can't hide it. It's not that their opinion doesn't matter to her, it's that it does. Like a lot. Lorelai's usual shtick would work with other people; however with Richard and especially Emily, it doesn't. I wonder now if maybe part of Lorelai's reasons for keeping Rory away from R&E for so long is a) she didn't want Rory to see her the way R&E tended to b) she was jealous that Rory would be seen as the kid they'd rather have had or c) a combo of both. It's funny since she's an only child, but she has this sort of sibling rivalry with Rory in regards to R&E. It's hard enough for kids to realize their parents have a favorite and it isn't them, but imagine having that with your own kid? It does differ in the way that instead of putting Rory down like you may do with a sibling, she puts R&E down.

[amensisterfriend]

It's also interesting how Lorelai's wit both engages/charms/attracts people AND repels/annoys/baffles/hurts them and keeps them at a 'safe' distance. Lorelai has a pattern of impulsive, self-sabotaging behavior and a way of interacting with the world that both draws people towards her AND keeps them at bay. It's thanks to your post that I'm now viewing her humor as the most frequent and significant example of that! 

Edited January 3, 2017 by amensisterfriend

[Melancholy]

JaggedLilPill, I agree somewhat with your thoughts.  That said, Lorelai's off-color, offensive remarks in the name of humor are far from her worst trait, IMO. Maybe other people feel differently. However she bothers me more when she's not being funny. When she absolutely cuts Rory/her parents/Luke out of her life with no warning or sufficient discussion to work through a problem. Her serial insults to Jess which were a mixture totally serious and trying to be witty- but were fundamentally rooted in anger. Lying to herself and Max about being in love with him and wrongly accepting his proposal and then after she ran away from the wedding and broke his heart, chasing him around Chilton. Lying to Luke about Christopher and then Husband!Christopher about Luke.  Expecting Rory to be a pal on her wavelength in terms of tolerating Lorelai making out with Max at school and then joining her runaway bride mission but then harshly shutting Rory up when Rory wanted to talk it out while dismissing Rory's feelings of instability. Her possessiveness over Luke when it manifests in fury that he wasn't divorcing Nicole or later got a place with Nicole, fury that he didn't prioritize Rory over Jess to the point of refusing to take Jess in, acting like a victim that he didn't obey her financial instructions on April, entitlement that he'll jump to marry her after abandoning him for a mission to re-evaluate her life.

I think she's an odd mixture of insecure and entitled/arrogant. It's a Gilmore family trait to feel like you're a hopeless fuckup if you aren't always Top Dog- the life of the party, the professional ace, the most desirable woman to men, the one dictating the agenda. Sometimes it's bracing for criticism but other times, it's chasing Max around a classroom to prove that he still thinks she's the bee's knees instead of just accepting the graceful space and distance from criticism by just leaving the mess in the past. Rory, Emily, Lorelai all have it. Interestingly, Rory didn't start out this way but she grew into this way to a still lesser extent than Lorelai and Emily after being immersed in this world. If any of the Gilmore girls don't get the primacy they think they should have, they flip between self-blame or blaming other people. Sometimes the blaming other people is clearly a defensive lash out for their own insecurities but a bunch of other times, they really wrongly feel fucked over that they weren't made Queen. 

Edited January 3, 2017 by Melancholy

[JaggedLilPill]

@Melancholy Yes, I definitely see where you're coming from and it's true that Lorelai can be cruel at times. I love the way you phrased the Gilmore trait of "feeling like a hopeless fuckup if they're not top dog" because it's true. Even Richard to an extent has it. When he was going through his work-is-phasing-me-out phase, he shut Emily out and was sullen and then makes a decision like retiring without her.  And then doesn't even really talk about going into business for himself with her. That would not sit well with me if I were Emily.

Some part of me wonders if it's learned behavior. The fact that Richard only stands up to Trix when she calls him out on borrowing money from her and not for all the times she is being an absolute wench to his wife speaks volumes. Not that Emily is perfect by any means! She seems to take pride in pointing out others flaws and the way she treated her maids was appalling. And she can be very cold.

Lorelai can too. The Max situation was terrible (although I really must question Max's character here. Who decides that it's a good idea to get married like that?) and I'm not fond of the way she can treat Luke and Rory and Jess too (even though I still hate him LOL. Oh well). She does have a mean streak. Of course I will forever loathe the L/R rift of season 6. It was poorly handled by everyone really, but Lorelai could have done many things differently. There could have been a compromise. Not that Rory handled it better. It's been discussed ad nauseam, but it was an extreme reaction to drop out over one person's opinion. That being said, it was one of the very few times I saw Lorelai as a conditional parent. 

1 hour ago, amensisterfriend said:

It's also interesting how Lorelai's wit both engages/charms/attracts people AND repels/annoys/baffles/hurts them and keeps them at a 'safe' distance. Lorelai has a pattern of impulsive, self-sabotaging behavior and a way of interacting with the world that both draws people towards her AND keeps them at bay. It's thanks to your post that I'm now viewing her humor as the most frequent and significant example of that! 

Oh definitely. As much as she puts off this "I'm cool being by myself" attitude, I don't think she is. I'd wager she's terrified of being written off for good, but she'll never really admit that except for small moments like Mimi. 

The thing is she totally, like you say, self-sabotages, and like Melancholy mentioned, she pulls away and cuts people off. And when you already have fragile relationships like the one Lorelai has with Emily, that solution only exacerbates the situations more and doesn't do anything to rectify them. 

You really honestly could write a thesis paper on Gilmore Girls and the theme of families if you wanted to now that I think about it. LOL. 

[hippielamb]

23 hours ago, Eeksquire said:

Does anyone know if there is a list somewhere (official or not) that lists all of the songs in the show? I had (foolishly) thought that the song information would be included SOMEWHERE (like in the credits in movies), whether on the DVDs or in the credits or ... somewhere, but as far as I can tell that's not true.  I wish there were some kind of clearinghouse for this information, because I am music-illiterate and wish I could track down this kind of thing in an organized way (not just for GG, but shows generally).  Thoughts?

Spotify has a official Gilmore girls playlist. It doesn't have every song ever played on the show but it has a nice selection. 

https://open.spotify.com/user/warnerbros.tv/playlist/23q7tJ9isv1dKpqs5FcFNy

This playlist is more extensive. 

https://open.spotify.com/user/lisa_anthem/playlist/3cf0DNKvQ9hbdDAzkpjsgm

I used to think they would have included a music list like they did with pop culture references in the dvd set. Anyway, this site gives a detailed list that goes by season and episode. 

http://www.what-song.com/Tvshow/75/Gilmore-Girls

[Eeksquire]

Ooh, @hippielamb, you are my new hero! I love me a Spotify playlist! Thanks!

[Ambrosefolly]

Some probably already made this observation, but I never say Logan as someone like Christopher, but her version of Jason Styles. If anything, Dean is her Christopher, a young love that made a stupid mistake with that unintentionally helped in the long run (at least for Lorelai and believe or not, Dean for getting married too young). I kind of felt sorry for Christopher. I do believe that he loves Rory, but I believe it was a stranger situation for him than Lorelai having her that young. Rory did give Lorelai the excuse or the nerve she needed to runaway from home and move to Stars Hollow, and she was extremely lucky to not only to find someone like Mia, but discover that she was extremely talented in the hospitality industry. While she got to raise Rory as she wanted too and was mentored by Mia, I wonder how lost Christopher felt? He was an extremely strange situation. Lorelei rejected the idea of marrying him in order to not to tie them down so young, but college also be extremely strange situation as well as he would be an incoming freshman with a toddler. Lorelei found herself (or maybe became emotional stunted) as a teenager while it took decades longer to find his place...right back at his father's company. Sometimes people have to constantly have to start over again and don't hit it out of the park in their teens/twenties. I know, I am been forced to take a minimum wage job in my mid thirties, taking orders from someone who isn't old enough to drink liquor. While it was never Lorelai's job to "save" Christopher, she probably viewed him as a fuck up that didn't have her shit together like her.

I know that they tried to make the comparison between Christopher and Logan when they met, but it seems that he was as hostile to Logan as he was to Jason in that anecdote that Lorelai shared. Logan and Jason seemed to be extremely good in their respective family business, hardworking, pompous, with jerk family members, and extremely, err, "quirky". The only thing Christopher and Logan have in common is that Logan may have fathered a baby with a Gilmore girl in a less than ideal situation. But while Christopher was a 16 year old kid, Logan is a grown adult at this point.

[Aloeonatable]

13 hours ago, Keith1980 said:

Early seasons Rory I like, not so much the Yale years.

That seems to be a popular opinion. Rory became less relatable and likable as she grew older and entered her grandparents world. I think that was always ASP's plan.

[Keith1980]

23 hours ago, Aloeonatable said:

That seems to be a popular opinion. Rory became less relatable and likable as she grew older and entered her grandparents world. I think that was always ASP's plan.

I never said it was a unpopular opinion just stating it as mine. 

[Melancholy]

Well I don't exactly think Logan = Christopher but they have a big commonality of being "the guy you just can't quit" in Lorelai's words on Logan. It's an epic multi-decade story as opposed to Lorelai/Digger. 

I do agree that Logan has all of these quirks and color and even at his most feckless and annoying, he wants to travel abroad, learn from other's culture, have fun centered around history. IMO, maybe we didn't see California!cross country!Christopher but the one we saw mainly just wanted to watch movies and TV, listen to music, and male-model pose. 

I actually don't know if Logan was working hard in the Revival or was a Digger style workaholic. He certainly didn't seem like a Jasonesque workaholic by any means. I mean, I think Logan is smart and interested in media but he took the path of least resistance working for his father instead of continuing the S7 promise of making it on his own. For all the "Rory is lazy", I think Rory was dealing with far more career stress than Logan and it showed in their love scenes. 

[tarotx]

Logan definitely wasn't having work stress except for maybe timezone hate. His breaking point obviously came earlier in life since we can assume that he's back in the family business. Of course, Amy never would have had him leave and didn't explain why he's back. She just plotted it in and gave no explanation like with a lot of things in the Revival. We can assume and fanwank but nothing concrete. 

We know Logan had to go back to Work the first time we see him and that he says he has competition now that Rory is going to be an author.  And Later he's up late dealing with China. That's all we get from Logan's life. Well, and that he's in contact with his family and is engaged. Info drop but no POV or connecting the dots. Logan wasn't exactly a well-defined character in the revival. Though we can also see that he might still be a bit of an adventurer since he has pictures of white water rafting and Skiing in the apartment. Which I didn't notice at first. 

[movingtargetgal]

I started disliking Rory when she met Logan.  The way she treated Marty when Logan showed up during their movie night was horrible.  Instead of telling Logan that she had plans with Marty and that he should call first next time, she dragged Marty along on her "date" with Logan and friends.  She gave no consideration that Marty would be uncomfortable and unable to afford the outing.  Rory was really cruel to Marty and she showed how thoughtless and selfish she was.  I think her relationship with Logan brought out the Lorelai and Emily in her.  Both her mother and grandmother can be very thoughtless and selfish.  

[Melancholy]

I'm on my phone so I can't copy the transcript but Rory did decline Logan's offer to Logan and then, she said twice to Marty that they didn't have to go. Marty could tell that she deep down wanted to go and refused Rory's offers to stay at home. I feel for Marty that he was so humiliated and miserable that evening but he got himself into that situation. I don't know what Rory was supposed to do other than what she did. 

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

3 hours ago, Aloeonatable said:

That seems to be a popular opinion. Rory became less relatable and likable as she grew older and entered her grandparents world. I think that was always ASP's plan.

I preferred all Rory's as she grew. I didn't like her behavior but people change, just went with it 

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

39 minutes ago, Melancholy said:

I'm on my phone so I can't copy the transcript but Rory did decline Logan's offer to Logan and then, she said twice to Marty that they didn't have to go. Marty could tell that she deep down wanted to go and refused Rory's offers to stay at home. I feel for Marty that he was so humiliated and miserable that evening but he got himself into that situation. I don't know what Rory was supposed to do other than what she did. 

She did and said several they didn't have to go. He insisted they went and she said he only have to say the word and they'll leave. Didn't she end up leaving with him at the end of the night anyway?

[Melancholy]

44 minutes ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

She did and said several they didn't have to go. He insisted they went and she said he only have to say the word and they'll leave. Didn't she end up leaving with him at the end of the night anyway?

Yes, she did. I mean, she disappointed him when she said that she liked Logan after Marty flat out stated his feelings and she may have left with Marty, but she had sex with Logan later that night. But the thing is- that's entirely Rory's right and prerogative. She didn't disrespect Marty as a friend and she had no obligation to consider him more than a friend. 

If I was going to critique Rory's behavior, she was particularly naive even for a 19 year old not to see that Marty clearly had a crush. And I think Rory was a little off-kilter in the Gilmore Way To Live because the whole pretzels of the world, posters of the Marx Brothers scream the effort a girl may make at trying to draw in a boyfriend instead of a casual night between two friends hanging in a dorm. But none of that encompasses malice or even selfishness when it comes to Marty. 

[TimetravellingBW]

On 1/8/2017 at 6:02 PM, Ambrosefolly said:

Some probably already made this observation, but I never say Logan as someone like Christopher, but her version of Jason Styles. 

I know that they tried to make the comparison between Christopher and Logan when they met, but it seems that he was as hostile to Logan as he was to Jason in that anecdote that Lorelai shared. Logan and Jason seemed to be extremely good in their respective family business, hardworking, pompous, with jerk family members, and extremely, err, "quirky". The only thing Christopher and Logan have in common is that Logan may have fathered a baby with a Gilmore girl in a less than ideal situation. But while Christopher was a 16 year old kid, Logan is a grown adult at this point.

I saw Logan as much more like Chris than Jason. The only real commonality Logan had with Jason was they're both witty, came from wealthy, jerk families and went into the family business. And all those things apply to Chris as well. As @Melancholy said Jason was genuinely hard-working and a workaholic, while Logan - aside from him reforming himself in s7 which fell apart in the revival - lacked that for most of the series. And given the deal he messed up in s7 he doesn't seem extremely good in the Huntzberger business. (Though he's presumably learned more by the revival, but still that was a pretty major failure). 

Logan's more similar to Chris in that they both tried to strike out on their own but eventually ended up back in the family business despite aiming to do other things. In comparison Jason genuinely enjoyed working in insurance, didn't feel the need to break out until he was an adult, and even then remained in the same field and worked with his father's former colleague. Meanwhile Logan and Chris spent their early/mid twenties wandering around, having a good time and taking it easy. 

Also, ymmv, Chris and Logan seem more similar in personality: They're both charming, flirty, rebellious, yolo, confident types while Jason is neurotic, uptight, plans everything and is less charming with women. I wouldn't perceive Logan as "quirky" in the same way Jason is. (If I was being really stereotypical I'd say Jason was a nerd in high school, while Chris and Logan feel like the popular, possibly Tristan-like types).

Also, post-revival Logan is clearly the guy "Rory can't quit" (despite her being a more immature version of herself around him), like Chris was for Lorelai, while Jason wasn't a major relationship.

Edited January 9, 2017 by TimetravellingBW

[Ambrosefolly]

2 hours ago, TimetravellingBW said:

Also, post-revival Logan is clearly the guy "Rory can't quit" (despite her being a more immature version of herself around him), like Chris was for Lorelai, while Jason wasn't a major relationship.

 

I never got that. As much as I loathed Jess, he would be the one that Rory would be hang up on.  Jason worked for his father since he was a teenager, did leave for a time, came back to the company and then worked with Richard for a bit, before he decided to fuck him over, at 37.  With Chris, they did share Rory. If Lorelai and him didn't get pregnant, they would probably would have been friendly exes, like Rory and Dean.

[Melancholy]

We'll never know what Lorelai's and Chris's relationship would be if they didn't have Rory. It would have been such a fundamentally different story and Lorelai. However in terms of the shows and evidence before us, Chris is the guy that Lorelai couldn't quit for a very long time and Logan is the guy that Rory can't quit. 

Even though, IMO, it's a definite possibility that Rory/Jess happens in a sequel to AYITL, Rory pretty firmly quit him in Those Are Strings Pinnochio. Jess coming back into her life in mid-S4, asking to run away together at the end of S4, coming back a truly man in S6 and then in the Revival didn't lead to Rory going for a romance with Jess. You know in the Jess v. Luke comparisons, I think Rory shows decidedly less romantic interest in S4-Revival Jess than Lorelai showed in S1-pre-Last Weeks Fights, This Weeks Tights Luke. Rory tried kissing him once but even then, it was lampshaded that Rory mainly kissed him because of her anger at Logan and then, couldn't go further with Jess because "despite the bad he's done", Rory can't quit Logan. 

Edited January 10, 2017 by Melancholy

[TimetravellingBW]

25 minutes ago, Ambrosefolly said:

I never got that. As much as I loathed Jess, he would be the one that Rory would be hang up on.  Jason worked for his father since he was a teenager, did leave for a time, came back to the company and then worked with Richard for a bit, before he decided to fuck him over, at 37.  With Chris, they did share Rory. If Lorelai and him didn't get pregnant, they would probably would have been friendly exes, like Rory and Dean.

Huh? In the revival Jess's feelings might have resurfaced but there's next to no indication that Rory is still hung up on him: They haven't seen each other in years, have two amicable conversations about her career/book writing and she doesn't return his longing look through the window. (Even in the original series, she turned him down when he wanted to be together in s4 and broke off their kiss to return to Logan in s6). Yes they could get together post-revival but on Rory's side there was very little on screen. (And I don't say that as a pro Logan/Rory fan). 

In contrast Rory's continually going back to Logan even though she has a boyfriend and he has a fiancee. Then when she "ends it" he pops back up, she's pulled back into his LDB whirl and they sleep together again. (Likewise in the OS Rory breaks up with him several times - after going back to Yale, the bridesmaids - but always ended up going back to him). With all that, Logan is much more "the guy she can't quit" and keeps coming back to despite herself. Even though - like Lorelai with Chris - Rory reverts to her younger, more immature self with him, which is what the LDB sequence suggested.

We have no idea how Lorelai and Chris would have ended had they not had Rory. The show establishes they were friends their whole lives and clearly had strong feelings for each, but we don't know if Rory's presence prolonged those feelings or just made things more difficult. Maybe their feelings would have burned out or maybe if Rory wasn't born, they have had a better chance of working long term because they'd be in more similar positions. We just don't know. But much as I dislike Chris, Lorelai did have a lasting connection with him - it just wasn't a very healthy one. (Much like Logan and Rory imo).

Edit: Or basically what @Melancholy just said! 

Edited January 10, 2017 by TimetravellingBW

[tarotx]

Logan brought the LDB to cheer Rory up because she had wished to be in her 20's again. Plus, as planned, it wasn't this elaborate immature thing. Sure there was "cosplay" but it was dancing at a tango club and spending the night at a bed and Breakfast. And there was going to be breakfast at a diner.

[Melancholy]

On January 8, 2017 at 5:44 PM, shron17 said:

 

This isn't a fair comparison since in this instance Lorelai is the one faced with having a book written about the most important role in her life to date, one that began when she was still a teenager.  Jess would likely be just as defensive under such circumstances.   And I think his ability to put aside his feelings about Lorelai had much more to do with avoiding kicking Luke and Rory when they're down rather than showing his emotional maturity.  It's much easier to take the high road when it's not you on the chopping block.

Going back earlier. 

Jess's statements on Lorelai v. Lorelai's statements on Jess in the Revival not a *perfect* comparison but I think they can be compared. Whether Jess gained appreciation for Lorelai or whether he wasn't insulting Rory to avoid kicking Luke and Rory when they were down, it *does* show emotional maturity. It would have been very easy for Jess to start bad-mouthing Lorelai for her *actually* objectionable conduct in leaving Luke in the lurch under cover of Solidarity Sister Brother. When Luke accused him of thinking a snide remark that it's about time that Lorelai goes for therapy, Jess expends some labor/cleverness to instead make a self-deprecating joke that this is how his mind works. I get why Lorelai's defensiveness in her conversations with Luke and Rory led to some Jess-bashing because he's a familiar target but she is unfairly striking out a guy who didn't do anything to her in 15 years and undermining the conversations that she's actually having with her loved ones. Particularly with Luke, I think you can argue that Lorelai's persistent interest in having a "fresh kid" with him comes with a lack of fully understanding and empathizing with his paternal feelings towards April and Jess and the Jess-snark is a symptom of that. 

[Keith1980]

On 1/9/2017 at 6:24 PM, movingtargetgal said:

I started disliking Rory when she met Logan.  The way she treated Marty when Logan showed up during their movie night was horrible.  Instead of telling Logan that she had plans with Marty and that he should call first next time, she dragged Marty along on her "date" with Logan and friends.  She gave no consideration that Marty would be uncomfortable and unable to afford the outing.  Rory was really cruel to Marty and she showed how thoughtless and selfish she was.  I think her relationship with Logan brought out the Lorelai and Emily in her.  Both her mother and grandmother can be very thoughtless and selfish.  

I think this is a little strong.  I mean she did make it clear to Logan that her and Marty had plans.  Maybe she could have been a bit firmer.  I do find it one of the annoying habits about Logan that he just shows up out of the blue at Rory's without checking if she's free first.  But to be fair to Rory I remember her giving Marty the option to say no to the dinner.  At that stage I don't think Rory knew about his money issues so I don't think she can be blamed for that either.  And later she did ask Marty in to watch the film again.  So on balance I think she handled it pretty well. 

[Frelling Tralk]

It was actually Marty who annoyed me more in that episode because I felt like Logan and Rory were both bending over backwards to accommodate his feelings, and he choose to put on a bit of a martyr act instead. Not only did Rory say several times that they didn't have to go, but I thought that Logan was actually very gracious about it when the bill came up and everyone knew that Marty couldn't afford to pay it. He didn't offer to pay for Marty in a condescending way, instead he very tactfully put it as hey I was the one to invite the two of you, it's my treat. Marty was the one who insisted that he would withdraw money to pay for himself, then fled to the street where he admitted to Rory than he had no money to withdraw from his bank account, and then ultimately Rory was stuck having to pay for Marty to salvage his pride. If Logan had been a jerk about it then okay I would understand Marty bristling at the offer to pay for him, but as it was I thought that it was way more embarrassing to just run out saying that he would withdraw the money from an ATM, even though he knew that his account was empty. What would he have done if Rory hadn't bailed him out?

[Sweet Tee]

Dine and dash?  

[random chance]

3 hours ago, Frelling Tralk said:

It was actually Marty who annoyed me more in that episode because I felt like Logan and Rory were both bending over backwards to accommodate his feelings, and he choose to put on a bit of a martyr act instead.

Same here, I never understood how Logan was the bad guy in that situation. And then of course later on Marty proved himself to be quite the asshole.

[hippielamb]

On 1/9/2017 at 5:56 PM, TimetravellingBW said:

Also, ymmv, Chris and Logan seem more similar in personality: They're both charming, flirty, rebellious, yolo, confident types while Jason is neurotic, uptight, plans everything and is less charming with women. I wouldn't perceive Logan as "quirky" in the same way Jason is. (If I was being really stereotypical I'd say Jason was a nerd in high school, while Chris and Logan feel like the popular, possibly Tristan-like types).

Also, post-revival Logan is clearly the guy "Rory can't quit" (despite her being a more immature version of herself around him), like Chris was for Lorelai, while Jason wasn't a major relationship.

That sums up why I like both Logan and Chris. It took me a long time to like Logan, mainly because I didn't like him for Rory in season 5. But I did like their relationship in the revival. Go figure. 

I kinda wanted Rory to through back in Lorelai's face, 'what about the guy you could never quit' when Lorelai was casting shade on Rory's dalliance with Logan. But Rory is a lot classier than me.

[Kohola3]

5 hours ago, Frelling Tralk said:

Not only did Rory say several times that they didn't have to go, but I thought that Logan was actually very gracious about it when the bill came up and everyone knew that Marty couldn't afford to pay it.

Having been in a similar situation, I have to be on Marty's side.  The group ordered all kinds of expensive stuff, I stuck to the basics and then they all cavalierly declared the bill would be divided equally. I was mortified at the amount of money I had to cough up (luckily I had it) but would have been totally embarrassed to accept charity from the wealthy ones.  I knew that I would be the topic of conversation if I protested or accepted money from others unless it was from a friend who understood.  

Logan had been verbally condescending to Marty in the past so he certainly had a suspicion that to say anything would make him fodder for more put downs.  Certainly the obnoxious members of the LDB had no qualms about humiliating people (think Milk Maid).

[Guest]

I don't agree that Logan had been condescending to Marty prior to that. Asking if he was still interested in bar tending parties was innocuous. He was complimentary of Marty's work. His friends were terrible (as per usual) but Logan himself was fine.

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

6 hours ago, random chance said:

Same here, I never understood how Logan was the bad guy in that situation. And then of course later on Marty proved himself to be quite the asshole.

And Rory. Somehow they became the bad guys in the Marty saga