All Episodes Talk: Lorelai and Rory and the People They Love

[blueray]

I've always liked Jess. Not necessary with Rory romantically but as a character. I loved that he was actually a smart and nice person but had a troubled past and actually grew up as the show went on. He also ironically ends up being the only one of Rory's boyfriends that she is still friends with at the end of the show. Dean's character they destroy as the show goes on. And while I don't hate Logan, he never really grows up in the three or so seasons he is in.

 

I also like Luke (maybe it's a family thing). He is mostly always there for Lorali and was always one of my favorite characters.

Another thing is that I realized Logan is Christopher.

I've seen this show a bunch of times and I never thought about it. He totally is.

Edited July 12, 2014 by blueray

[Guest]

 

Also, Lorelai handled the talk with her dad about his shutting out Jason in exactly the wrong way. She was correct to tell him that what he was doing was wrong and unfair, but by making it all about her, she lost any persuasive points she might have made.

True in general, but especially given the way her parents found out about their relationship.  Lorelai's relationship with the senior Gilmores was already fragile enough that she should have known this would be a problem for them.

 

I think Logan more was what Christopher could have been if he had lived up to his potential more.  At the end, we did see him standing on his own feet, moving forward, taking responsibility, etc. 

[XtremeOne1]

I'll always be Lorelei/Luke as a couple. They just work together so well, have such an easily flowing chemistry, are similar but different enough that really guess are perfect for each other.

 

I think the show always had trouble with Rory's boyfriends. I honestly think Marty was the best one for her, until they ruined his character. I felt like Dean, Jess and Logan were a bit too much "fantasy males" One was the fantasy boy next door, the other fantasy bad boy from the wrong side of the tracks, the other the rich bad boy. They never really felt like characters too much. Another issue was that Rory seemed to get lost in Logan, with her becoming "his girl" and less of her own character. She was never more unlikable when she was hanging with his terrible friends. How Rory could be around those people made me dislike her. They were not only pretentious and snobby, but at times downright misogynistic. I only wish Paris would have met them and just destroyed them.

 

I think latter Jess is the best of the three for Rory and I mean after season 5 Jess. The Jess who said, "I know you better than anyone, run away with me" was an idiot. First, he doesn't know her better than anyone and second, he wasn't ready. But honestly, I think Rory needs someone who matches her drive and ambition, but also simple, to let her do her own thing. It's why I was happy she ended the show single(wonder what ASP would have done...). It was refreshing that the show was like, "No, she's choosing herself and her career right now...She's only 22!"

[lulu1960]

I agree, XtremeOne. I though Pre-Creepy Marty could have been a good choice for her. I remember reading a fanfic with Marty and Rory getting together and I really liked it. (I think it was lulabo's). The teenage Jess kinda went south quickly. Philly Jess had his act together (or at least he was on the right track).

 

Also welcome to all the fun.

[Taryn74]

I felt like Dean, Jess and Logan were a bit too much "fantasy males" One was the fantasy boy next door, the other fantasy bad boy from the wrong side of the tracks, the other the rich bad boy.

 

 

Interesting point.  I had not thought of them in that way before.  I will spend some time mulling this one over.

[Athena]

I think the show always had trouble with Rory's boyfriends. I honestly think Marty was the best one for her, until they ruined his character. I felt like Dean, Jess and Logan were a bit too much "fantasy males" One was the fantasy boy next door, the other fantasy bad boy from the wrong side of the tracks, the other the rich bad boy. They never really felt like characters too much. Another issue was that Rory seemed to get lost in Logan, with her becoming "his girl" and less of her own character. She was never more unlikable when she was hanging with his terrible friends. How Rory could be around those people made me dislike her. They were not only pretentious and snobby, but at times downright misogynistic. I only wish Paris would have met them and just destroyed them.

 

I agree about the "fantasy males" thing. It was very much a WB/CW aspect of the show. I think each person who watched the show regularly at Rory's group had a guy she really liked. Not to say the guys didn't get developed. I felt Dean got worse and both Jess and Logan were developed better. 

 

I didn't like Logan's friends, but most of them were done away with after a time. I really think that they struggled with Rory on a whole so they made this elaborate rebellious and acting out stage for her that really began when she slept with Dean. Along the way, she lost Paris. I didn't love Paris, but their friendship was good for them both. I didn't like how the writers just imploded that friendship for the sake of Rory to be editor. 

[nolieblue]

I agree about the fantasy aspect of the boyfriends, particularly Logan.I like Matt C. but hated the Logan character from the very beginning because he was such a stereotype and it felt so lazy on the part of the writers to do the old rich boy brought to heel by the sweet small-town girl. GG at its best was so much better than that.

[Aloeonatable]

 

I think latter Jess is the best of the three for Rory and I mean after season 5 Jess. The Jess who said, "I know you better than anyone, run away with me" was an idiot. First, he doesn't know her better than anyone and second, he wasn't ready.

 

I read on another site where someone interpreted that when Jess said he knew Rory better than anyone he didn't mean he knew her better than Lorelai, Lane or anyone else, just that she was someone that he knew well. He understood her; she was a kindred spirit, someone he related to on many levels. 

[vanillamountain]

I've been rewatching some of the later scenes because of the UO topic. I must admit that I love Logan. I don't know all the reasons why and he annoyed me slightly in the beginning, but he really grew on me.

 

I grew to like Logan too. Especially in the last season, when he left his father's company and really came into his own. In my head, he and Rory probably would have gotten back together later on, after Rory had worked for a few years and gotten herself established. I wished that his ending wasn't so rushed - but since the producers weren't sure if there would be an 8th season at that point, I can see why it was done that way.

Edited August 5, 2014 by vanillamountain

[Iseut]

Random curiosity I'd like to throw out to the experts here...do you guys think Emily was a good tipper?

 

She was a perfectionist and horrible to her help, but she was also very proper and concerned about societal rules. 

 

In the spring break episode we saw that Paris was a proactive, pre-emptive tipper; I wonder if Emily was the same way to help her ensure what she wanted.

 

I have officially thought too much about this. :)

[dustylil]

Emily was probably a good tipper in places where she was known and used frequently (local restaurants, hair salons, etc.). She did have a position to maintain. However, given how readily she got angry and took offense, I doubt it was her customary practice when visiting new places.

 

Of course, I never viewed Emily  as someone who was very proper and concerned about society's rules. That was only for when  it suited her. After all, despite  her "good breeding" she was a vicious gossip and prone to berate those she considered her inferiors.

 

Also, her grasp of what was proper was sometimes tenuous. She did  (half-heartedly)  offer Lorelai  her congratulations upon learning of  her engagement in Season 6 - after rebuking Luke some months earlier for doing much the same thing to her. ("Best Wishes" should have been offered to the bride instead. )

[junienmomo]

I was pondering Mia the other day.

She accepted Lorelai for what she was when she came looking for a job, which was fantastic, but I just don't see that Lorelai grew up after that time with respect to personal relationships. She clearly proved herself and her ability to support her family, but lacked the skills to form her deeply-desired happy family relationship.

If Mia was so wonderful, I wonder why she didn't address that.

[dreamkiller]

I'm right in the middle of a rewatch of the Max Medina storyline now that I've discovered Gilmore Girls in on netflix! I remember Lorelai being ripped apart from time to time on the old twop forums for her parenting decisions and I've got to say dating max was definitely one of those questionable times. She talked a big game about not wanting it to affect Rory, but she unnecessarily involved her in the relationship multiple times. The first time it bothered me was the first time he picked her up at the home and she forced Rory to open the door and entertain him despite their previous rule. Then the next episode she's attempting to have Rory return the novel she borrowed from Max, effectively breaking up with him through Rory, and the became angry when Rory tells her that Max asked Rory about Lorelai! I just found her protestations to be ridiculous especially with that Parents Day kiss! The two of them never showed enough chemistry to make me believe that they couldn't keep their hands off each other. Just knowing that Rory suffered so much humiliation only to have Lorelai break the engagement at the beginning of the next season is difficult.

[lulu1960]

Well said on all counts.

I also felt that Lorelai never should have said yes to dating Max. If not from the school aspect then from it being awkward for Rory.

[junienmomo]

She was downright cruel to Max, never did figure out why. She knew she didn't love him and basically said so several times. Even after the breakup she seemed to need to keep testing him to see how far he would humiliate himself. At least Digger knew when to not come back.

[dreamkiller]

The worst part was that I never really got the feeling that she was all that into him in the first place. I don't think she ever had any intentions on dating him seriously and just got swept up in the daisies. You better be pretty intent on taking that relationship somewhere if you are disrupting your daughters education at that very ritzy school. Max even mentioned that the headmaster wanted to put him on probation after that kiss on Parents Day! Nothing in that relationship ever indicated that it was worth that risk.

[CheersEnthusiast]

Well, I've gotten to the point in my latest Gilmore Girls binge where Rori sleeps with Dean.  Amazingly, I'd never seen the season 4 ending before now though I've seen almost every other episode.  

 

The main emotion I'm dealing with is just feeling incredibly horrible for everyone involved.  So I guess I'm still in the shock phase.

 

From a writing standpoint I think they made a mistake pairing that encounter with Lorelei and Luke's first kiss.  I couldn't both fully appreciate that moment and deal with the fallout from the Rori/Dean handgrenade.  

 

On the other hand I do feel as if--as a viewer--I am almost completely immersed in Lorelai's perspective of the night.  "Oh I finally kissed Luke, how wonderful.  Now I'm just going to go home and pick something up really quickly so I can get back to that wonderful place.  And, oh look it's my wonderful daughter looking oddly guilty.  And there's her wonderful ex-boyfriend....putting on his clothes....both of them acting very strangely....and her bed is a complete mess..."

 

"No, don't mind me I'm just going to take a valium or something....Luke who?  Oh yes, something wonderful happened before the handgrenade went off!  And then my ears were ringing and I was suddenly on the beach at Normandy with Tom Hanks screaming in my face."   

[Eeksquire]

The Season 4 finale was the first episode I ever saw of the show.  At the time, I didn't really get why Luke and Lorelai were such a big deal, I sure did get why Rory sleeping with MarriedDean was a REALLY big deal.  Wanting to know what the of that would be is what drew me into Season 5.  (And then at some point after that, I had a terrible break-up of my own and my friends loaned me the DVDs of the first four seasons.)

[stillshimpy]

Here's what I've been having fun doing, what with Gilmore Girls being available to stream at long friggin' last: I put the series on and have been letting it sort of marathon through the first season, as season one is not actually one of my favorites due to a number of issues (a bit too precious a lot of the time for starters). One issue for me being that Scott Cohen -- who I'm sure is a delightful man in many respects -- just was not well cast as Max, in my opinion.  AS-P's dialogue really requires a certain kind of delivery to keep it from sounding smug, or condescending and Scott Cohen just didn't really have that down.  Whereas David Sutcliffe -- and I'm no Chris fan -- really did have that playful tone, and Scott Patterson always delivered his lines like he was making very dry jokes, Scott Cohen just sounded condescending and conceited on a lot of occasions.  

 

So knowing it's the actor for me, vs. the actual role, I've been trying to imagine if I still  would have reacted so poorly to Max had David Sutcliffe been cast as Max and someone else entirely played Chris.  Just something fun for me to ponder on this, my fifth or so rewatch since the series ended.  I know I actually don't dislike David Sutcliffe,, even a little, but I don't like Chris.  Yet, I can absolutely see the chemistry between Sutcliffe and Lauren Graham, whereas part of the problem with Max's character was that the show tried to sell the attraction between Lorelai and Max as the "can't keep my hands off of you, even though I try" kind.  

It falls sort of flat for me, because it's one of those story lines when I can see the actors, acting.  Like when Max is kissing Lorelai in her house and they are headed towards the stairs (Lane will then pop up in the background)....instead of seeing two people transported by a physical attraction, I notice the blocking in that scene.  Particularly when Scott Cohen's hand falls on the newel post.  Stupid thing to fixate on in a scene, but that's just how limp the chemistry between the actors seems to me: I can see Cohen placing his hand on a mark vs. groping along in a strange place as they head towards the stairs.  

 

So that was a hyper-specific complaint, I'm aware.   But trying to imagine Sutcliffe as Max has pretty much solved the Max Medina problem for me.  In the long run, it's probably best that Cohen was so badly miscast, but it does make the story that much more irritating, because it is beyond silly that a woman who had been so incredibly careful about dating in Rory's presence for her entire life, up to that point, would throw caution and sense to the wind for that guy.  

 

I think that's a big part of why I find season one irritating, at times.  It's actually sort of important to Lorelai's characterization that she seems to have suspended good sense because she just was head over heels for the guy.  She borrowed money from her parents to try and make sure Rory got the best education possible.  She was willing to sacrifice a long held pride for it.  It made zero sense that she would jeopardize that to date a guy, unless you could practically see the sparks from space.  

Edited October 7, 2014 by stillshimpy

[junienmomo]

Stillshimpy, I love your analysis - you've really looked at things in a way I haven't.

Try this perspective on for size:

I view the Loreleis from the mythological perspective of the "Loreley," a siren, a water sprite, whose murmurs cause sailors to wreck themselves on the rocks. Personally I suspect ASP and co. deliberately chose the name for that reason.

Both Rory and Lorelai have men "crashing on the rocks," poor Max and Dean being two of the most painful. I admire the way the writers brought Dean down until he essentially faded out of sight.
With Max, I see the mythological Lorelei as unable to resist murmuring as long as he's not completely destroyed himself. The character Lorelei says so many times she doesn't love him, yet she draws him in again and again, and never tells herself why. Talk about the parable of the scorpion - it's in her nature, and it requires a real transformation before she can stick with a relationship.

[Minneapple]

Another thing is that I realized Logan is Christopher.

Yup. And Tristan was Rory's first Christopher. Logan was a Tristan retread, which is what annoyed me the most about him. Blond rich "bad" boy who gave Rory a stupid nickname? The difference of course is that Season One Rory didn't tolerate that bullshit, but Season Five Rory did.

 

From a writing standpoint I think they made a mistake pairing that encounter with Lorelei and Luke's first kiss.  I couldn't both fully appreciate that moment and deal with the fallout from the Rori/Dean handgrenade.

 

I think Amy did this deliberately. She contrasted two "first times" -- one happy event with the grenade-style event. She also copied it in the series finale of Bunheads, where Michelle is perfectly happy with having casual sex with the bartender in the beginning of the episode. And in the end of the episode, BOOM. We find out Ginny has had a heartbreaking first sexual experience. Raincoats and Recipes is such a rollercoaster of emotions that it took me a long time and multiple viewings to fully deal with it. I still remember that episode thread at TWoP was, like, 80 pages long. It's STILL a shock to me every time I watch it.

[Eeksquire]

Minneapple, I never made that connection, but you're right: the structure of the two episodes (GG and Bunheads) mirrors each other.  Somehow, I think the juxtaposition was more subtly done on Bunheads, but that might be because the show was newer and they hadn't set up the OTL-ness the way they had with both Luke and Lorelai and Rory and Dean.

 

I kind of am interested to hear more about the mythical Loreleys too from junienmomo, if you wouldn't mind - I'm not familiar with them and it certainly would explain why I never liked Dean's character.  Too perfect in the beginning and then rapidly destroyed for no real reason.

[junienmomo]

There are myths of sirens/Lorelei in many cultures, including Greek, German, Malaysian, and Chilean. While not all sirens sing, pretty much all of them tend to entice men to their destruction, mostly sailors.

This group of creatures (sometimes human, sometimes other things) are essentially guardians at the entryway to a different world. The hero of the story, and we are always the hero of our own story, has been called to an adventure. That adventure requires accepting the call and venturing into the different world. In that world are many tests and ordeals, also rewards and achievements. The hero always comes out transformed, not always for the better.

If the hero is pursuing the wrong adventure, or is not prepared for his adventure, he can destroy himself trying to cross the threshold. Lorelei are one of the cruelest, because while some of them sing because they must, some sing on purpose to destroy the hero. Regardless of the reason they sing, a hapless hero can easily crash on the rocks of these sirens.

When I learned that there were 3 Lorelai in GG, it became clear that these poor guys were in trouble. Luke was the only guy who made it through his hero's journey to be transformed and bring back the prize from the other world, but look at the tortures he went through to be transformed. But that's another story for another day. This is about the Lorelai.

While I don't know much about Trix, clearly the other two Lorelai are simply living their own hero's journey: Lorelai to find/make the happy complete family, and Rory to be the adult that she wants to be. Being Lorelai, however, they HAVE to sing. Remember their offhand remark to Mia that they were monopolizing too much beauty? Their beauty is their song. That song calls the others. The image I get in my mind with Max, Alex and Digger is one in which they throw themselves against the Lorelai rocks, and their lifeless bodies slip silently into the ocean after being battered. All the while Lorelai hardly notices or can hardly admit to herself that she is at least partial fault.

There are a jillion other aspects to consider, and that's one of the reasons I find the GG series so fascinating. Who can watch a normal sitcom or forensic drama when there's material like this available?

[dreamkiller]

The great re-watch is not going well for Lorelai. I can recall twopers lamenting Lorelai's self-centeredness and I never quite saw it. Ive noticed it over the course of the first season and a half, but I've reached the point of no return! I just finished "Like Mother, Like Daughter" and listening to Lorelai ramble on to Luke about how dating a Chilton mom would ruin her perfect Stars Hollow bubble made me want to stab my eye out! The audacity of her really thinking that he should alter his plans around her was galling.

[txhorns79]

The great re-watch is not going well for Lorelai. I can recall twopers lamenting Lorelai's self-centeredness and I never quite saw it.

 

She definitely has her moments.  For me, one of the worst moments of the series is Sookie and Lorelai disrupting Fran's funeral procession so they can make a play for the Dragonfly property.  I mean, the whole thing is just so mind-bogglingly inappropriate and wrong, but it's played very cutesy.  

Edited October 10, 2014 by txhorns79

[JayInChicago]

Honestly sometimes Lorelai's behavior borders on...the sociopathic. Or maybe narcissistic?  Maybe that could be a new disucssion--which personality disorders do you internet-diagnose Stars Hallowers?

[txhorns79]

which personality disorders do you internet-diagnose Stars Hallowers?

 

Miss Patty would obviously be a nymphomaniac.  Paris might have borderline personality disorder, combined with daddy issues.    

 

Edited October 10, 2014 by txhorns79

[junienmomo]

The narcissistic adjective for Lorelai came up so strong for me right after Luke described his Herculean effort at taking care of PaulAnka. All this for love in spite of him disliking dogs, and Lorelai doesn't so much as thank him, just says that she doesn't want the wedding until Rory is back in the fold.

But selfish was said by Max first, I believe.

In S7, if Lorelai had made a simple list of Luke's gestures over the years, she wouldn't have been whining about him being slow to respond.

[dreamkiller]

Yes, Max called the selfish out first and he was absolutely correct! Lorelai was very similar to Carrie Bradshaw in that the conversation must eventually turn back around to her.

[CheersEnthusiast]

Honestly sometimes Lorelai's behavior borders on...the sociopathic. Or maybe narcissistic?  Maybe that could be a new disucssion--which personality disorders do you internet-diagnose Stars Hallowers?

 

Lorelai's behaves neurotically when she encounters intense internal conflict.  This is brought to the forefront in her relationship with Luke.  

 

Lorelai's decision to get engaged to Luke is mostly about Rori.  She says as much in the car with the psychiatrist.  "[but] that moment when I realized how much he cared for RORI.  [gasp] THAT was it, suddenly I knew I was ready."  

 

She loves Luke and says so to the psychiatrist, but does not seem to contemplate marriage without the inclusion of a clearly communicated love for HER child.  No wonder when April shows up (a shockingly close portrayal of Rori, but by a different woman) and Luke becomes focused on his own daughter...well then the clinching reason for her proposal goes away.  So, no love plus great relationship with Rori a la Max Medina = no marriage.  Love plus a relationship with his own child getting in the way a la Luke = no marriage.  The two drives must work together and if they come into conflict well...   

 

Lorelai begins to act neurotically.   With Luke the relationship and the temptation to continue it is so strong that she is terribly conflicted every time she encounters the April delimma.  The increasing valence of the conflict eventually causes Lorelai to move between a complete lack of communication and avoidance--even hiding from Luke at one point, very un-Lorelai--to impulsivity via her ultimatum to Luke and then sleeping with Christopher.  In the end the conflict is resolved in the same manner as the cutting off of ties with her parents and leaving Max--through impulsivity and "burning her bridges" so she no longer has to deal with the pain of the conflict between her need for romantic love and satisfaction of her intense (perhaps you could even say dysfunctional) relationship with Rori.

 

It's no coincidence that she sleeps with Rori's father (connected and invested in Rori through biology) so choosing to promote the security of what is perhaps the stronger of her two drives--the importance of her mother/daughter relationship with Rori.  And so also her impulsive marriage to Christopher is still really not about Christopher at all, but a continuation of her impulsive rejection of Luke.  Rejection of love in this manner is never stable and Lorelai will likely be dealing with the psychological fallout from her rejection of Luke for some time.  

 

Did I say that Sherman-Palladino is a GREAT writer yet?   

Edited October 12, 2014 by CheersEnthusiast

[BC Mama]

The great re-watch is not going well for Lorelai. I can recall twopers lamenting Lorelai's self-centeredness and I never quite saw it. Ive noticed it over the course of the first season and a half, but I've reached the point of no return! I just finished "Like Mother, Like Daughter" and listening to Lorelai ramble on to Luke about how dating a Chilton mom would ruin her perfect Stars Hollow bubble made me want to stab my eye out! The audacity of her really thinking that he should alter his plans around her was galling.

 

Or when she fires Traci Lords, a designer who is enthusiastic about the inn and is loved by Sookie and initially Lorelai, because she knows Emily! This is a woman's livelihood!!

[txhorns79]

Or when she fires Traci Lords, a designer who is enthusiastic about the inn and is loved by Sookie and initially Lorelai, because she knows Emily! This is a woman's livelihood!!

 

I can't believe I'm doing this, but I'll defend Lorelai a small bit on that.  If I remember right, she thought Traci Lords had told Emily about Sookie's pregnancy, and went to a crazy place where she believed Traci would be reporting what was happening with Lorelai to Emily.  I'm not justifying Lorelai's actions, but I understood her thought process on that one.    

[BC Mama]

I can't believe I'm doing this, but I'll defend Lorelai a small bit on that.  If I remember right, she thought Traci Lords had told Emily about Sookie's pregnancy, and went to a crazy place where she believed Traci would be reporting what was happening with Lorelai to Emily.  I'm not justifying Lorelai's actions, but I understood her thought process on that one.    

 

True. But, Sookie herself assured Lorelai that there is not way Traci could have been the one who told Emily, and Traci promised that she would not have any communications with Emily. Lorelai fired her after Emily called in a huff because Emily had wanted a room touched up, and Traci told her she could not work for her.

[Guest]

Didn't it turn out that the designer wasn't the one who told Emily about Sookie?  I agree with the point about Lorelai, but I think I remember Sookie telling Lorelai "She didn't tell her I was pregnant, because she didn't know until a few minutes ago."

[CheersEnthusiast]

At the risk of getting in a debate that will help absolutely no one...I have trouble describing a woman who raised another human being--on her own--from the age of 16 (!) and was able to mold that daughter into ivy-league material (again largely on her own) as "selfish".  If the bar for adjudging someone as "selfish" is set low enough to include such a woman, well then I think the bar is set too low...and by a considerable distance.    

[txhorns79]

I would say that those things are not necessarily connected.  Lorelai has been selfish over the course of the series.  She did throw tantrums with Luke, and simply expected that he'll forgive her.  She did disrupt a funeral in order to assure she could get dibs on the Dragonfly.  It doesn't change that she did something really huge in raising Rory on her own.   

[Eeksquire]

I think of Lorelai as self-involved rather than selfish.  She can be shown to go out of her way (the one that immediately jumps to mind is for the twin wedding - she anticipated almost every problem), but that's mostly when it suits her (i.e., as the manager of the Independence Inn).  When there is no benefit in it for her, she just doesn't give it much thought.  The extreme examples of this demonstrate that she lacks empathy - i.e., when Jess and Rory were in the accident, she genuinely couldn't see that Luke might be worried about Jess.  It's not one of her finer qualities.  But, that's part of why I like this show so much - I don't think any of these characters were perfect, even though the universe they live in is a paradise of strummy strummy la las most of the time.

[junienmomo]

What I cannot logically connect with Lorelai is her relationship to men vis a vis her self-centeredness. 

On the one hand, she really cannot seem to see past her own interests. On the other hand, either Rory or Sookie question her about her feelings for various men, and she does not seem to know what she wants until the man acts first, and acts pretty definitively. I can't recall how often I heard her say something like, "I don't know what he thinks"

I suppose it was just a sign of her poor relationship skills.

[Eeksquire]

That, to me, fits 100% with her life experiences - it's more or less exactly how teenagers think: "Well, I don't want to do X, because I don't know if he likes me yet!" Lorelai missed basically the second half of her adolescence and her ability to have adult relationships with men was totally stunted because instead of continuing to grow up herself, she had a baby and put that part of her life on hold.  The disappointing thing to me is that, until the April fiasco, it looked like Lorelai had actually started to grow up a little in that regard and was having an adult relationship with Luke and then everything regressed almost immediately.  Bah.

[junienmomo]

Too bad that Mia, her mentor and ersatz mother, didn't seem to be around at the point when she could have benefited from someone who could help her. Sookie was never much help, except to keep encouraging every relationship. Lorelai really needed someone to help her decide what she wanted, relationship-wise. Sadly, Emily wouldn't have done that either.

It would stll have been an interesting story if she had married Chris at 16, because she would have run away from him rather than from her parents.

[Taryn74]

It would stll have been an interesting story if she had married Chris at 16, because she would have run away from him rather than from her parents.

 

 

Huh.  Interesting observation, I hadn't thought of it in quite those terms before.

 

You know, in some ways Lorelai was more mature in her relationship with Chris at 16 than she was later in her life.

[Guest]

Huh.  Interesting observation, I hadn't thought of it in quite those terms before.

 

You know, in some ways Lorelai was more mature in her relationship with Chris at 16 than she was later in her life.

I wonder if she'd been so completely hurt by how things ended up with Luke and was just so tired of all the changes/responsibilities in her life (in the past 2 years she'd been in a major relationship, opened her own business, fought with her daughter majorly twice, reconciled with her daughter twice, planned a wedding, renovated her house) that she wanted Chris in part because she didn't have to "be an adult."  So she reverted to a place of severe immaturity.

[txhorns79]

she wanted Chris in part because she didn't have to "be an adult."  So she reverted to a place of severe immaturity.

 

I don't think it was a place of severe immaturity.  Luke deeply hurt her by keeping secrets, and probably gave her the idea that relationships should not have to be as hard as Luke had made their relationship.  With Chris, she knew what she was getting, along with the extra plus of marrying her kid's father.  The marriage was rushed, but on paper, Chris seems like he would be a good match. 

[Kohola3]

You know, in some ways Lorelai was more mature in her relationship with Chris at 16 than she was later in her life.

 

I don't think either of them moved on much at all, they were still acting like teenagers in their 30s. After a long absence Chris comes back practically destitute in Season 1, lies about his current status, reacts to his parent's attack with a roll in the hay (well, the balcony) and then asks Lorelai to marry him the next day.  He gets all kissy face at the coming out party knowing all along that he had moved in with his girlfriend.  And has another liaison at the same time the girlfriend was pregnant (which he supposedly didn't know about).  

 

But Lorelai managed to forget the repeated bonks to the head with the idiot stick and decide to marry him anyway.  Sheesh.

[junienmomo]

Lorelai never gave up on Chris, or at least the idea of Chris as the husband that "should" have been. Ironically enough, that is also her mother's wish. 
Lorelai started the series with a nearly-grown daughter and had clearly decided she could start looking for her mate. However, as many have mentioned, she was emotionally very much still 16, and had not gone through her Jess', Deans and Logans.

Add to that mix the bad boy Chris who had a right to come visit his daughter, was highly romantic yet unreliable, and it's just a time bomb. 

In Season 6, The Great Dumbing Down of L/L, Lorelai spent months as a martyr, every bit as idiotic as Luke's compartmentalizing. 

The advice the therapist gave her was good (ask for what you want). Lorelai's execution was disastrous - no ultimatum was ever successful in GG, must be a fundamental value of ASP. 

Rory's developing relationship skills (being able to say no to Jess, negotiating for the relationship she wanted with Logan, setting boundaries with all the men) were simply not present in Lorelai's toolbox. 

So Lorelai jumped. As timing (and scripts) would have it, Chris was available, romantic and now had money, and was willing to take her under any circumstances. He won. 

Anyone with half of Rory's relationship skills would have done what Rory later told her mom. 

RORY: You know what, mom? If you're heartbroken, rent "An Affair to Remember," have a good cry, and drown your sorrows in a pint of ice cream. You get a hideously unflattering breakup haircut. You don't sleep with dad.

In short, Lorelai jumped, Chris took advantage of her stupidity, and IMO ASP flipped the CW the bird in this season as she said goodbye. 

[junienmomo]

Deaja, your statement

was just so tired of all the changes/responsibilities in her life (in the past 2 years

 

is very interesting. The next time I watch through S7 I'll pay attention to this.

So far, all I remember is the Hay Bale apology during which she acknowledged it was wrong to sleep with Chris that night. She also told Chris that her jumping was all her, but didn't say why.

[txhorns79]

And has another liaison at the same time the girlfriend was pregnant (which he supposedly didn't know about).

 

In fairness, there was never any suggestion Chris had lied to Lorelai about when he found out Sherry was pregnant.  I think that would be a much darker place than where this show would go.       

 

 

The advice the therapist gave her was good (ask for what you want). Lorelai's execution was disastrous - no ultimatum was ever successful in GG, must be a fundamental value of ASP.

 

If I remember right, her ultimatum actually did work.  Didn't Luke show up the next day ready to get married?  It was just too late by that point. 

Edited October 16, 2014 by txhorns79

[junienmomo]

You are partially right, TXhorns. Her ultimatum was for right now, no more waiting, but he did show up within a reasonable time for many people.

Luke showed up the very next morning, but still wanted to talk.

Then Lorelai went to work and Luke to the diner, where the red light camera episode happened. That took several hours by Taylor Doose's reckoning. Then the accident, and the shouting about moving the car, then Luke spent some time contemplating.

 

Update: After scanning the episode transcript, Luke doesn't show up ready to elope until two mornings later. Bummer.

His speech that morning is probably my favorite monologue of the series. So beautiful, wonderfully acted, so much in vain.

 

LUKE: Uh...a car crashed into my diner yesterday. There's a giant hole where my wall used to be. It's gonna take a couple of weeks to fix. [Chuckles] It's a disaster, but I don't care. I mean, I care, but... you know what, no. I really -- I don't care. It's like it's not even real to me. It's like my life isn't even real to me unless you're there, and you're in it, and I'm sharing it with you. And, uh, I don't know what I was waiting for, and I don't know what I was scared of, but I'm not. I'm not scared, and I'm not waiting. I'm here.

 

Edited October 16, 2014 by junienmomo

[txhorns79]

Thanks Junie!  I knew he did eventually show back up ready to be married.  I give the show credit for having Lorelai admit what had happened right away, and not trying to squirrel it away as some kind of big sweeps reveal.

[sunflower]

 

I give the show credit for having Lorelai admit what had happened right away, and not trying to squirrel it away as some kind of big sweeps reveal.

 

What was so depressing about Season 7, just one of many things, was wasting much of the season on the Chris/Lorelai relationship that was an obvious failure from the get go.  If ASP and DP had been there, maybe I could have taken it for 2-4 episodes. But, they even got married!  It was like Lorelai was being rewarded for her crazing cheating on Luke.  I know it's complicated, but it was just so depressing.  

 

And the absolute worst thing about Season 7, imo, is the destruction of Luke's character.  Maybe, it started in Season 6 with the April plot point from hell, but Season 7 ruined him because he was the character that needed the excellent ASP/DP writing.  He was the king of rants, banter, and dry humor, and Season 7 made him ordinary, dull, and out of character.  As I'm writing this, I think I realized the real problem.  Luke works best with intelligent characters like Lorelai and Jess he can banter with.  Season 7, most of it, he had no connection with Lorelai, so he was stuck with TJ and Liz mostly and his daughter.  Winners All.  I could go on, but I won't.  I'll never get over it.  Ugh!

 

More: Luke's character needs an edge.  Season 7 took it away.  He can be warm and have heart, and he does.  But, he needs his edge.  The end.  

Edited October 17, 2014 by sunflower