Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Zella]

2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

What is the weather there today? Spring dress, sweatshirt mumu, down vest, etc.

It's in the 70s. Very warm for December. 

[Lindsay Loo Hoo]

Attorney for the defense Justin Gelfand then asked James Fottrell about the router.

Gelfand said the IP address comes from the router, not a device.

He said a router shows what devices are connected and claimed Fottrell had never done forensic analysis on the router.

The Sun reporter at the trial on Friday claimed that after the short recess, Josh’s lawyer Justin Gelfand and seemed agitated.

The reporter said Gelfand raised his voice at one point towards James Fottrell during questioning, alleging that it might have been because Fottrell wasn’t answering the way that Gelfand wanted him to.

[hathorlive]

8 minutes ago, Lindsay Loo Hoo said:

Attorney for the defense Justin Gelfand then asked James Fottrell about the router.

Gelfand said the IP address comes from the router, not a device.

He said a router shows what devices are connected and claimed Fottrell had never done forensic analysis on the router.

The Sun reporter at the trial on Friday claimed that after the short recess, Josh’s lawyer Justin Gelfand and seemed agitated.

The reporter said Gelfand raised his voice at one point towards James Fottrell during questioning, alleging that it might have been because Fottrell wasn’t answering the way that Gelfand wanted him to.

Well, not really.  Routers don't contain memory.  If you look at it while it's hooked up, you get settings and very very limited data.  Looking at something isn't forensics.  We don't use the words "forensic examination" regarding cell phones because we have to turn the phone in order to extract it.  That in and of itself changes data, and therefore it's not forensic.  Looking at a router isn't forensics.

Routers don't give you an IP address.  In most cases, a DHCP server does.  So a router gets your IP address from your internet provider and then stores it.  I never do "forensics" on a router in my lab because if its unplugged, it loses all it's stored data.  So unless Mr.  Fottrell was on site that day, he didn't even "interrogate" the router as we say.

Edited December 3, 2021 by hathorlive

[Lindsay Loo Hoo]

The Sun reporter at the trial claimed to see some of the jury nodding along with the prosecution witness before lunch break on Friday.

[hathorlive]

1 minute ago, Lindsay Loo Hoo said:

The Sun reporter at the trial claimed to see some of the jury nodding along with the prosecution witness before lunch break on Friday.

They've got the jury.  I know it only takes one, but it's really early for the jury to be doing head nods.

[Tuxcat]

4 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

Well, not really.  Routers don't contain memory.  If you look at it while it's hooked up, you get settings a very very limited data.  Looking at something isn't forensics.  We don't use the words "forensic examination" regarding cell phones because we have to turn the phone in order to extract it.  That in and of itself changes data, and therefore it's not forensic.  Looking at a router isn't forensics.

Routers don't give you an IP address.  In most cases, a DHCP server does.  So a router gets your IP address from your internet provider and then stores it.  I never do "forensics" on a router in my lab because if its unplugged, it loses all it's stored data.  So unless Mr.  Fottrell was on site that day, he didn't even "interrogate" the router as we say.

The problem is that the jury won't know this. The jury will hear "open router" "unprotected wifi," "why didn't you look into other details and possibilities" "why didn't you check this and that...." They don't really have to tell the jury what everything means - just give the impression that the feds left things out.

[zoomama]

1 minute ago, hathorlive said:

They've got the jury.  I know it only takes one, but it's really early for the jury to be doing head nods.

so is this good for josh or bad for him? i dont understand. 

[hathorlive]

2 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

The problem is that the jury won't know this. The jury will hear "open router" "unprotected wifi," "why didn't you look into other details and possibilities" "why didn't you check this and that...." They don't really have to tell the jury what everything means - just give the impression that the feds left things out.

That's up to the prosecutor to knock down.  I said earlier, we kick in the door and the first place I go is to the router.  I document the settings, note the network names and which ones are open and which ones are password protected.  If they guys on scene didn't do that, it's bad crime scene.  If they did and the prosecutor doesn't explain it, then that's a bad AUSA.  Honestly, I think after the lining up the text messages and Josh's location at the car shack, combined with the images, the jury is done.  Gelfand can say that all it proves is that the phone was there, not Josh, but saying things like "I'm at work" "did you see that crash" will be enough for the jury.

3 minutes ago, zoomama said:

so is this good for josh or bad for him? i dont understand. 

Juries don't tend to be responsive to arguments in court until they (the individual ones) have decided which side they think is more valid. If you have several jury members nodding at what the prosecutor says, it's a good sign for guilty.  Of course, it just takes one.  But its a good sign.

[zoomama]

2 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

That's up to the prosecutor to knock down.  I said earlier, we kick in the door and the first place I go is to the router.  I document the settings, note the network names and which ones are open and which ones are password protected.  If they guys on scene didn't do that, it's bad crime scene.  If they did and the prosecutor doesn't explain it, then that's a bad AUSA.  Honestly, I think after the lining up the text messages and Josh's location at the car shack, combined with the images, the jury is done.  Gelfand can say that all it proves is that the phone was there, not Josh, but saying things like "I'm at work" "did you see that crash" will be enough for the jury.

Juries don't tend to be responsive to arguments in court until they (the individual ones) have decided which side they think is more valid. If you have several jury members nodding at what the prosecutor says, it's a good sign for guilty.  Of course, it just takes one.  But its a good sign.

thanks for explaining that. 

[Trillium]

The time stamps of the downloads and his texts are going to be impossible to overcome.  That is very easy for the jury to understand and connect the dots. To acquit they would have to believe that at the exact moment he was there someone else was remoting into the computer and downloading CSAM just to frame him. Maybe you could find one, but to convince all 12 to vote not guilty, seems very unlikely. At best he can hope for a hung jury. But given what they had to see, I can’t imagine they’d be feeling anything but vengeance.

Edited December 3, 2021 by Trillium

[MMEButterfly]

2 hours ago, SusannahM said:

It's sad that no one from her own family seems to feel they need to be there for her.

Looking at Anna's picture with Josh, there's no way the girl isn't horribly uncomfortable. Her hands looks swollen. She's still swollen and apparently producing milk, and feeling heavy on her feet, and even more powerless than she's ever been. Her hormones are whipping her up. She's --in so many ways alone. She has to fear the future. I'd say right now she's in her own private Hell. There is no way Anna is feeling smug. IMO 

[hathorlive]

7 minutes ago, Trillium said:

The time stamps of the downloads and his texts are going to be impossible to overcome.  That is very easy for the jury to understand and connect the dots. To acquit they would have to believe that at the exact moment he was there someone else was remoting into the computer and downloading CSAM just to frame him. Maybe you could find one, but to convince all 12 to vote not guilty, seems very unlikely. At best he can hope for a hung jury. But given what they had to see, I can’t imagine they’d be feeling anything but vengeance.

That's the absolute strongest part of the case.  We always say that anything is possible but is it PROBABLE and the answer is usually no.  I've never had a case this tight or one that put the defendant behind the computer.  And I rarely lost a case.

[Lindsay Loo Hoo]

Josh Duggar went shopping with his wife, Anna, and made sure to snap a selfie of their outing just hours after downloading child sex abuse material on his work computer, according to text messages uncovered in the ongoing court case.

According to evidence at the trial on Friday, Josh left his car dealership for a trip to Lowes hardware store around 8:14 pm on May 14, 2019.

That was after a mass of illegal files were downloaded to his work computer that evening.

[CandyCaneTree]

1 hour ago, crazy8s said:

Jeer's 6 seater plane flew to TN this morning. surely for Katie Bates' wedding tonight. will be interesting to see if JB and Meech flew off to a wedding during the trial.

I'll bet you anything that Smuggars proud parents were on the plane. Gotta keep up mother of the year face.

[lascuba]

Quote

The searches showed multiple attempts at downloading torrents in April 2017.

@Lindsay Loo Hoo is that a typo or did they really say Josh tried but failed to download torrents in 2017?

 

[Lindsay Loo Hoo]

1 minute ago, lascuba said:

@Lindsay Loo Hoo is that a typo or did they really say Josh tried but failed to download torrents in 2017?

 

I've copied and pasted it from the sun. To me it appears they are saying he attempted to download torrents multiple times. 

[Tikichick]

1 hour ago, hathorlive said:

And the attack on the forensic tools begins.  EnCase, X-Ways, FTK, and Axiom have been vetted and white papered to death.

All the tech talk is an easy route to boring and baffling jurors, planting some "reasonable" doubt.

58 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

They've got the jury.  I know it only takes one, but it's really early for the jury to be doing head nods.

I'll believe it when they have completed deliberations and come back with the guilty verdict.

Defense will be noting those early nodding heads and making notes -- which they will then use to increase their efforts to baffle and sway.   They'll no doubt also be looking for any possible opening to dismiss any of the nodding heads.

How many alternates sit on a federal panel?

[GeeGolly]

Shit, if I was JB & M the last place I'd want to be is with the Bates. They're like their mirror family - but without a criminal. I know the Bates suck too, as well as their Fundy friends, but I'm sure there will be a lot of glances and quiet gossip. Never mind making small talk.

Or maybe I have it totally wrong and there will be a lot of validating the unjust persecution of their Christian friends.

[hathorlive]

4 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

How many alternates sit on a federal panel?

6.  

4 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Shit, if I was JB & M the last place I'd want to be is with the Bates. They're like their mirror family - but without a criminal. I know the Bates suck too, as well as their Fundy friends, but I'm sure there will be a lot of glances and quiet gossip. Never mind making small talk.

Or maybe I have it totally wrong and there will be a lot of validating the unjust persecution of their Christian friends.

I think there will be a LOT of "I'm gonna pray for you" in the way that only Southerners can deliver.

[zoomama]

just made two pillow covers for a christmas gift while reading the updates here. sewing is an easy distraction. 

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, GeeGolly said:

Shit, if I was JB & M the last place I'd want to be is with the Bates. They're like their mirror family - but without a criminal. I know the Bates suck too, as well as their Fundy friends, but I'm sure there will be a lot of glances and quiet gossip. Never mind making small talk.

Or maybe I have it totally wrong and there will be a lot of validating the unjust persecution of their Christian friends.

Hopefully the Bates follow the Duggar example and get their show canceled too, without sexually exploiting and abusing children of course.   Hoping to see those proudly racist idiots scrambling to work actual J.O.B. s for a living instead of continuing to exist as if they are celebrities -- because they absolutely do not deserve to be celebrated for anything.  

[lascuba]

5 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Shit, if I was JB & M the last place I'd want to be is with the Bates. They're like their mirror family - but without a criminal. I know the Bates suck too, as well as their Fundy friends, but I'm sure there will be a lot of glances and quiet gossip. Never mind making small talk.

Or maybe I have it totally wrong and there will be a lot of validating the unjust persecution of their Christian friends.

#2 is the correct answer. These people do not care about crimes, they care about who gets punished for those crimes. One of their own is supposed to be above the law.

[Lhb830]

It's extra weird since Katie Bates doesn't even seem close with any of the Duggar kids. Like I'd understand Joy wanting to make it to Carlin's wedding no matter what, or JD and the Bates boys he does the MediScam thing with. But that's not the case here.

I wonder how she feels about having a bunch of Duggars at her wedding, especially if it leads to headline like "parents and siblings of accused child molester Josh Duggar attend family friend Katie Bates's wedding".

Edited December 3, 2021 by Lhb830

[GeeGolly]

Just when I kind of forget who they are, The Sun is now quoting Amy's SM for filler. 😴🙃

[Tuxcat]

10 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Just when I kind of forget who they are, The Sun is now quoting Amy's SM for filler. 😴🙃

From the Sun:

"We were told a completely different story. We were never told the truth."

"I went to Nashville with my mom to support her, and yes it was filmed but trust me when I say I was already distancing myself back then."

 

They are quoting Amy's answer to why they are outraged now but not before. Amy says because they never knew the truth. But the CD recording was in 2018.  The reports regarding the molestations were in 2015.

[emmawoodhouse]

5 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

From the Sun:

"We were told a completely different story. We were never told the truth."

"I went to Nashville with my mom to support her, and yes it was filmed but trust me when I say I was already distancing myself back then."

 

They are quoting Amy's answer to why they are outraged now but not before. Amy says because they never knew the truth. But the CD recording was in 2018.  The reports regarding the molestations were in 2015.

Laura Demaisie slid into Famy's IG defending the Duggars. The post is gone now, but she got roasted. 

[madpsych78]

9 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

From the Sun:

"We were told a completely different story. We were never told the truth."

"I went to Nashville with my mom to support her, and yes it was filmed but trust me when I say I was already distancing myself back then."

 

They are quoting Amy's answer to why they are outraged now but not before. Amy says because they never knew the truth. But the CD recording was in 2018.  The reports regarding the molestations were in 2015.

I thought Amy's CD recording episode was when it was 19K&C, so before 2015.

[lascuba]

1 minute ago, madpsych78 said:

I thought Amy's CD recording episode was when it was 19K&C, so before 2015.

I think she means the CD that the lost girls recorded--Amy's mom was involved in it somehow.

[Tuxcat]

2 minutes ago, madpsych78 said:

I thought Amy's CD recording episode was when it was 19K&C, so before 2015.

Not Amy's recording. It was when Amy's mom helped the younger girls record a Christmas CD.

[hathorlive]

36 minutes ago, zoomama said:

just made two pillow covers for a christmas gift while reading the updates here. sewing is an easy distraction. 

I'm supposed to be working but I filled out my planner and cut out stickers around work stuff.  It helps.  Everyone needs to take care of themselves.  It's not going to get any easier.

 

[Lindsay Loo Hoo]

After the lunch break, about 20 minutes into the continued trial, Joy-Anna Forsyth walked in and went up to her sister-in-law, Anna Duggar, to give her coffee and gave her a hug for a few seconds.

Joy then went back to the back of the courthouse to sit next to her husband, Austin Forsyth.

[Lindsay Loo Hoo]

Justin Gelfand continued to cross-examine James Fottrell after the break.

Gelfand showed an email from Caleb Williams, sent to Josh Duggar, regarding eBay shipping labels in March 2019.

He was working for Josh at the time.

[Lindsay Loo Hoo]

Gelfand and Fottrell then talked about Rufus, an app for Microsoft Windows that can be used to format and create bootable USB flash drives or Live USBs.

Fottrell said it was installed to the partition and Gelfand asked if a thumb drive was plugged in on the HP computer on May 13, 2019.

Fottrell replied that it was.

[Lindsay Loo Hoo]

Gelfand asked if any files were opened from the thumb drive on May 13, and Fottrell replied yes.

Gelfand asked where the thumb drive is, and Fottrell said it was not seized by the government and he hasn't seen it.

It was noted that the files on the thumb drive were never opened on the Macbook or iPhone.

[hathorlive]

1 minute ago, Lindsay Loo Hoo said:

Gelfand asked if any files were opened from the thumb drive on May 13, and Fottrell replied yes.

Gelfand asked where the thumb drive is, and Fottrell said it was not seized by the government and he hasn't seen it.

It was noted that the files on the thumb drive were never opened on the Macbook or iPhone.

Ah, the mysterious thumb drive that did all the bad stuff that government didn't seize on purpose (or because it no longer exists, or was at Josh's house, or that was lost).  More stuff that wasn't analyzed that will TOTS exonerate Joshie.

[Lindsay Loo Hoo]

Gelfand then noted that the files couldn't have been created on the thumb drive and questioned where the files were created.

He also brought up a program that deals with remote access for the HP desktop.

[Lindsay Loo Hoo]

Gelfand then brought up that Tor is easy to get and offers more security than other browsers, and that other browsers collect and sell info.

He then noted that someone might want to use it for extra privacy, and Fottrell agreed that someone might want to use it for privacy reasons.

Gelfand said Fottrell made Tor sound sinister, but that not everyone uses it for such purposes.

Fottrell agreed.

[Tuxcat]

1 minute ago, Lindsay Loo Hoo said:

Gelfand then noted that the files couldn't have been created on the thumb drive and questioned where the files were created.

 

huh? what does he mean?'

 

1 minute ago, Lindsay Loo Hoo said:

remote access

here they go

[RedDelicious]

5 hours ago, Tuxcat said:

Yes you can avoid them. You have to click if you want to "read more,"

FWIW, I think this sweatshirt contraption is supposed to have a cowl or drape neck, and she has it pulled back straight because Nike.

Also the skirt makes her look like she's wearing Batman's codpiece.

[Lindsay Loo Hoo]

Gelfand then asked Fottrell if Josh Duggar's Mac computer had the Tor browser since December 2017, but not for child sexual abuse material, and Fottrell replied yes.

Gelfand noted that people can go to the Apple store to get Tor.

[Tuxcat]

2 minutes ago, Lindsay Loo Hoo said:

Gelfand then brought up that Tor is easy to get and offers more security than other browsers, and that other browsers collect and sell info.

He then noted that someone might want to use it for extra privacy, and Fottrell agreed that someone might want to use it for privacy reasons.

Gelfand said Fottrell made Tor sound sinister, but that not everyone uses it for such purposes.

Fottrell agreed.

Now I get twitchy. Maybe mention again that he loaded the TOR browser the day before he loaded the CSAM. 

[Lindsay Loo Hoo]

The discussion then turned to command codes, which Justin Gelfand said were like a foreign language.

He asked Fottrell if he had found any evidence that Tor was installed by the app store, and Fottrell said he saw no evidence for any other way it was installed.

[Trillium]

7 minutes ago, Lindsay Loo Hoo said:

Gelfand then brought up that Tor is easy to get and offers more security than other browsers, and that other browsers collect and sell info.

He then noted that someone might want to use it for extra privacy, and Fottrell agreed that someone might want to use it for privacy reasons.

Gelfand said Fottrell made Tor sound sinister, but that not everyone uses it for such purposes.

Fottrell agreed.

Sure. Josh installed it for godly purposes and someone else just happened to use it for Satan’s work. 
 

So what if it isn’t always for evil things? Evil things were done on it. 

Edited December 3, 2021 by Trillium

[GeeGolly]

45 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Laura Demaisie slid into Famy's IG defending the Duggars. The post is gone now, but she got roasted. 

I guess that gives us a peek into what the Duggars are all thinking.

[Lindsay Loo Hoo]

Gelfand continued the line of questioning to Fottrell, asking if there was forensic evidence to show how a torrent was installed, and Fottrell said it was an experience educated guess.

They spoke more about torrents and the µTorrent client, which was installed the evening of May 14, 2019.

[Lindsay Loo Hoo]

After the Sun reporter noted that during this questioning, Gelfand was being handed notes by his team, he asked Fottrell about remote access.

He asked Fottrell if there was nothing in his reports about remote access and Fottrell said that was correct.

He asked about Remmina, an app for the computer for remote access, and if a router would help with remote access, and Fottrell replied yes to both questions.

[farmgal4]

8 minutes ago, RedDelicious said:

FWIW, I think this sweatshirt contraption is supposed to have a cowl or drape neck, and she has it pulled back straight because Nike.

Also the skirt makes her look like she's wearing Batman's codpiece.

She looks like a linebacker.  I never realized she was that big-boned.  Even her hands look huge.  That’s one of the most unflattering shirts/sweaters I’ve ever seen.

[Tuxcat]

From Reddit:

Hi gang, according to the podcast, the SoJo Files, which I will not be linking but Google it if you want, during James Fottrell(High Tech Investigative Unit expert)'s direct he submitted a photo taken on Pest's iPhone at the car lot around the time the CSAM was being downloanded. In that photo, the desktop computer monitor is visible and apparently you can see the reflection of the person sitting at the desk of the computer on the monitor, and the person appears to be wearing a red hat.

The selfie taken later that day of Pest and Anna door-shopping shows Pest also wearing a red hat.

 

[Guest]

Please keep your posts on topic. No unrelated cases, etc.  

[iwantcookies]

17 minutes ago, RedDelicious said:

FWIW, I think this sweatshirt contraption is supposed to have a cowl or drape neck, and she has it pulled back straight because Nike.

Also the skirt makes her look like she's wearing Batman's codpiece.

Well damn that’s one ugly outfit. But at least it’s new to us. Bwaha.