Season 4 Discussion

[iMonrey]

I'd also like to know how Baxter intends to explain a $3,400 charge on his credit card to Candace. I'm sure she makes him account for every penny the way she micromanages their lives. 

This episode seemed oddly out of place since we hardly ever see or even hear about Christie's kids anymore. The kid who plays Roscoe has really grown since the last time we saw him. I'm assuming Candace and Baxter got contacts for him? No more glasses but no reference to it.

How old is Violet? It seems borderline neglectful to just let her run off to work in Tahoe doing God only knows what. Apparently Christie doesn't even care, as long as she doesn't ask for money? 

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

How old is Violet? It seems borderline neglectful to just let her run off to work in Tahoe doing God only knows what. Apparently Christie doesn't even care, as long as she doesn't ask for money?

IIRC, she was 17 when she got pregnant in S1, and Roscoe was 8. He was referred to as being 12 in this episode, so that would make Violet 21. I think it's less neglect on Christy's part and more acceptance that Violet needs to do her own thing and figure her life out for herself. Violet was never interested in Christy's opinion, and often quite disdainful of her, so I can see why Christy took a step back once Violet became an adult.

Edited November 18, 2016 by chocolatine
spelled Christy's name correctly

[kelslamu]

My take on Adam was that he wasn't allowed to make any decisions in the relationship.  So, weirdly enough, when he broke up with her and she reacted he felt like he'd finally became an integral part?  Weird, but I think that's where they were going.

[Blakeston]

On 11/12/2016 at 10:16 AM, theatremouse said:

That's my point though. I agree with you if it were "whenever". What we saw here was one day. So the question becomes, do they mean show us once=whenever, or do they mean once.

Didn't it happen twice that he was flaccid when sober?

[theatremouse]

Possibly? But (by now I barely remember) I was still classifying that as "one day" because I think in-show it was presented as chronologically either the morning and evening of the same day, or the evening and then subsequent morning. Point is I think something like 12 hours passed between the "twice".

[Big Mother]

Yay Christy for putting her foot down. That mustv'e been really hard.

So much raw and truthful emotion and parenting issues in this episode.

[wendyg]

yeah, but....I know they're constrained by the actress's desire to go to college (at least, I think that's what's going on), but it's disappointing to me to have these repetitive episodes where Violet needs help, comes home, and then hatches a new scheme and leaves again. I like both the actress and the character enormously, so I'd like to see more of her and then we could have less repetitive plotlines. Violet was such a responsible character in S1, and it occurs to me that her current exploitative behavior is not as inconsistent as it maybe seems, in that having been surrounded by fuck-ups as a child she's always had a very low bar to measure up to. I'm not convinced that yelling at her was a good approach.

[MissLucas]

I'm torn about this episode - I loved Bonnie and Marjorie in the diner both agreeing on something and then freaking out about being on the same page for once. But ultimately for me this episode came down to nature vs. nurture with some uncomfortable conclusions.

At first Christy was willing to accept Violet's behavior as compensation for her horrible childhood (nurture) but in the end she admits that she does not like her daughter and calls her horrible and it's heavily implied that she puts those things down to an inherent flaw in Violet's character (nature). There's also the can of worms that is Violet's abusive father to consider though the show seems to have forgotten his existence (not that I complain about that).

I always considered Violet the most interesting character of the family- a Plunkett woman who tries to break the pattern (IIRC she never had a real addiction problem / she agreed to give her child up for adoption / she behaved responsibly in an age where both her mother and grandmother didn't). Yet, she does not come across as likeable or as heroic - quite the contrary. And the writers seem to struggle with the character too - she always brings a touch too much realism to the show. With Bonnie and Christy there are always ways to turn their tragedy into comedy because they have both left the worst behind. But they can't do that with Violet nor is cynicism the way to go because she's too young to make that work either. I guess it's for the best they use her character as sparingly as possible - since she's a constant reminder that beneath the comedy of the show two (or more) tragedies are lurking.

[MaryMitch]

The episode seemed pretty realistic to me.  I understand Christy's initial "I'm her mother, I have to be there for her" reaction, especially since she feels the guilt for basically letting Violet raise herself.  And now Violet is making mistakes - most young adults do - but as an adult Violet won't learn from her mistakes if she doesn't clean them up herself.

Adding: I think it's refreshing that we see such flawed characters on this show. I don't think we're supposed to like any of them ALL the time.

Edited November 26, 2016 by MaryMitch

[iMonrey]

I was just saying in my last post about this show I wish they'd bring back Luke because he was the funniest part of Season 1. I hope we see more of him and that Violet isn't just gone like she has been for most of the past 2 seasons.

[Blakeston]

I flat-out hated this episode (the one with Christy going Mommie Dearest on Roscoe).

Christy is usually a somewhat rational character, but occasionally the writers like to send her completely off the deep end to the point where she's barely recognizable. She was so over-the-top in this episode it was ridiculous.

[Trace]

Due to her past, I guess I can understand.  He's 12 and showing signs of Christy at 12. Considering how condescending Baxter's new wife is regarding Christy (she assumed Roscoe's drug usage was all Christy's fault when it actually was drugs that were in her own home), she freaked.

But there is one thing I hate about this show.  Who names their child Roscoe???  I have known only one Roscoe and he was a Basset Hound!

Edited December 3, 2016 by Trace
correct misspelling

[Chaos Theory]

I definitely understand Christy's overreaction.  She was seeing herself at 12.  She is not in custody of Rosco all the time and Baxter is rapped around his fiancee's finger and she hates Christy so they don't talk and then there is  Violet who is showing the early signs of addictive behavior.  Rosco is probably fine but Christy doesn't know that so she is overreacting. 

Edited December 2, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[iMonrey]

Quote

 Who names their child Roscoe??? 

An alcoholic drug addict?

This episode seems like it was shown out of sequence - it should have followed the other Roscoe episode from 2 weeks ago. I guess they felt like the episode with Violet was more of a burn-off episode they could show on Thanksgiving. The last scene with Christie addressing the group is probably going to be Anna Faris' Emmy reel. 

What's the difference between Alcoholics Anonymous and Al Anon? I don't get it. Christie and Bonnie are already part of an Al Anon group with Jill, Wendy, Margie, etc., right?

[EtheltoTillie]

25 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

 

What's the difference between Alcoholics Anonymous and Al Anon? I don't get it. Christie and Bonnie are already part of an Al Anon group with Jill, Wendy, Margie, etc., right?

As I understand it, AA is for the addicts.  Al Anon is for the families.  Christy and Bonnie are in AA. 

Edited December 2, 2016 by GussieK
spelling and added something I thought of later

[MaryMitch]

I understand Christy freaking out. Roscoe is 12 and he's drunk beer AND smoked weed? Considering that's probably how Christy started out, I certainly understand why she was so upset and wanted to make sure Roscoe doesn't follow in those footsteps.  Yeah, she crossed the line, but she's never SEEN the line.

[Chaos Theory]

Christy is also someone who had an extremely unstable childhood and despite her best intentions she hasn't given her children the most stable upbringing either.  She has gotten her life more or less on track but who knows the scars she has left on Rosco and that has to worry Christy who has always meant well.  She overreacted but it is understandable why.

[possibilities]

The AlAnon story came just in time for me. I had spent the past two days OBSESSING over someone else's behavior, and being very emotionally worked up about it, which I knew was dysfuntional behavior on my part, and had completely ruined what would otherwise have been a happy week, but I just couldn't get my mind off it.

And then when they went to the AlAnon meeting, I really saw what I was doing and it shifted.

I like that the show is addressing not only addiction but also co-dependence. I have known even more co's than addicts, and half the time people think it's healthy and moral and right and good, rather than crazy, counter-productive, annoying, and avoidant.

Seeing Bonnie and Cristy alternate who is acting out and who is taking the "sane, rational bystander" role week to week at first seemed like inconsistent characterization, but now I think it's actually fairly realistic of people who orbit around each other. I do think Bonnie being SO sane this week was more than a stretch, as was her having been going to AlAnon for 2 years without Cristy knowing about it. But I'll handwave it all because the episode stopped my own BS.

Do headphones work that well for drowning out nearby conversation? Or is that just a TV thing?

I didn't like when the AA group didn't tell Cristy when Roscoe came back. For me, that was too much.

[chocolatine]

2 hours ago, possibilities said:

Do headphones work that well for drowning out nearby conversation? Or is that just a TV thing?

Depends on the kind of headphones. There noise canceling headphones that do drown out nearby conversation; they're usually very expensive.

[MissLucas]

I could also see where Christy was coming from and why she was having such a hard time. It's not just worries that he's repeating her mistakes she might also consider him  her last chance to get things right (she can hardly count Violet as a success right now).

I wish we knew more about Roscoe he's been such a non-entity on this show over the last season that I barely recognized the actor on his return. He did some good work in that scene with Bonnie in the car and I wish they'd give him more to do.

[DXD526]

I thought Christy was justified at getting upset with Bonnie's boyfriend. He wasn't just having a drink in front of Roscoe; there were at least a couple of empty bottles on the table, so he was on at least his third beer. That's not just having a drink, that's getting hammered, and I found Christy's anger completely understandable. It's surprising that Bonnie just brushed it off. That guy is more than just the social drinker she likes to claim he is and, given her history, if she wants to stay sober, I don't think he'll be around long.

[MaryMitch]

21 hours ago, possibilities said:

Do headphones work that well for drowning out nearby conversation? Or is that just a TV thing?

I've got the Bose ones - I use them when I mow the yard. They are most effective at cancelling out low consistent sounds; they are excellent on airplanes and actually help you hear conversations better.  But if you are playing your music, you would probably not be able to hear a conversation about 10 feet away.

[Blakeston]

2 hours ago, DXD526 said:

I thought Christy was justified at getting upset with Bonnie's boyfriend. He wasn't just having a drink in front of Roscoe; there were at least a couple of empty bottles on the table, so he was on at least his third beer. That's not just having a drink, that's getting hammered

Not necessarily. My ex could easily drink six beers and not act the slightest bit different than usual. He was a heavy drinker, of course - but so is Adam.

It would be one thing for Christy to ask Adam not to drink in front of Roscoe, but yelling at him like he was a toddler (when she'd never even asked him not to do it), and telling him not to "sass" her, was completely out of line.

I think one of the things that irritated me about the writing of this episode was that Christy seemed to handle it like a reasonable person in the episode in which it happened. I get why it would push all of her buttons, but on some level she'd have to know that hysterical helicopter parenting can often make a kid Roscoe's age want to rebel.

And I found it unbearable to watch.

[LADreamr]

Still, it's not his home, she's having a serious and scary problem with Roscoe, and he isn't showing the least consideration.  He could act like a helpful adult instead of a self-centered, entitled child himself.  She doesn't need to tiptoe around his feelings in this situation. 

[Bastet]

Quote

He wasn't just having a drink in front of Roscoe; there were at least a couple of empty bottles on the table, so he was on at least his third beer. That's not just having a drink, that's getting hammered,

I haven't seen the episode, so can't given an opinion on how Christy and Adam each behaved in the confrontation, but three beers wouldn't be remotely close to getting hammered for me -- that would be standard, watching a game, intake that would leave me largely unaffected, and certainly not drunk.  I think the same would be true of Adam, given what we've seen previously.

[Chaos Theory]

On 12/3/2016 at 4:16 PM, Bastet said:

I haven't seen the episode, so can't given an opinion on how Christy and Adam each behaved in the confrontation, but three beers wouldn't be remotely close to getting hammered for me -- that would be standard, watching a game, intake that would leave me largely unaffected, and certainly not drunk.  I think the same would be true of Adam, given what we've seen previously.

But your girlfriend is an alcoholic with an alcoholic daughter of her own.  It's common curtesy thing.  I don't really want to get into a debate on who was out of line because in the end they both were.  I just think Adam shouldn't have been drinking in front of a 12 year old and leaving his empties when he knows the history of the family.

[Bastet]

That's why I specifically only addressed one point - the idea that having three beers is "getting hammered."

[Canada]

I find Adam kind of sad, mainly because I find it sad that people need to drink alcohol to enjoy anything, even watching something on TV.  Especially when people are drinking alone.  I jut find it kind of pathetic, so I can't warm up to the Adam character at all.

[hnygrl]

Adam not only drinks, but smokes weed and gets high as well. And his girlfriend is an Alcoholic Addict that goes to AA every single night. Geeze...I'm not down with that at all. I would think for that situation it would be common courtesy to not drink or smoke in the house. No matter what your girlfriend says, it's not kosher to do that in that house in that situation.

I get why Christy went cray-cray. Like one poster said, she crossed the line yes, but in all honesty she's never ever in her life even SEEN the line, so she didn't know until someone took her by the hand and showed her the line. THEN she backed off. She's just so damned scared that this disease is inherited (mother, daughter, grand daughter, and now SON???) no matter what the experts say.

This one made me not cry, but I got a lump in my throat and my chest was tight. So real. So really really real...My father and grandfather (and bother brothers) were all alcoholics and my father and grandfather drank themselves to death. My brothers got sober before that happened.  

Good show. Damn good show. One of the very few sitcoms I still watch faithfully and DVR as well.

[Chaos Theory]

33 minutes ago, hnygrl said:

Adam not only drinks, but smokes weed and gets high as well. And his girlfriend is an Alcoholic Addict that goes to AA every single night. Geeze...I'm not down with that at all. I would think for that situation it would be common courtesy to not drink or smoke in the house. No matter what your girlfriend says, it's not kosher to do that in that house in that situation.

Here is where things get a little bit iffy.  It depends on how long you have been together.   It looks like Bonnie and Adam are pretty serious which means he spends a fair amount of time at her place.   Now it works both ways.  Telling him he can't wouldn't be right either.   Bonnie is the addict Adam isn't.    Now again that doesn't mean Adam should be drinking in front of Bonnie or Christy and most definitly Christy's son.  It is just hard to know what the rules are in these circumstances and Bonne and Christy tend to lean towards the cray-cray when stressed instead of the rationally discussing of how they feel but again Adam knows this and he doesn't do anything to avoid it.  

[iMonrey]

I'm glad Jamie Pressley got something to do in this episode. Too often I feel like she's being wasted on this show with just a line here and there. 

I'm glad Jamie Pressley got something to do in this episode. Too often I feel like she's being wasted on this show with just a line here and there. 

[roughing it]

Yes, Wendy too.  Bonnie was just awful, does she have any redeeming qualities? 

[MissLucas]

Interesting episode. I'm okay with Marjorie's plan backfiring - while there is some wisdom in the idea that helping others helps someone in a depression it's not the panacea to heal all psychological wounds. Jill's definitely not in the right place to become a mother right now but as Bonnie in one of her few lucid moments pointed out, telling someone whether they are supposed to have a baby or not is crossing a line. I thought Christy was both right and out of line at the same time.  There was a lot of complex issues packed into that episode and that's why I love this show.

Edited December 10, 2016 by MissLucas

[Aliconehead]

I am going through something similar with a friend. She is trying to knock herself up with purchased sperm and not having much luck. She has cut off at least three friends that have broached the subject that this might just not happen. My advice is to just keep those opinions to yourself. For Jill I might try to find a baby for her to watch to see how difficult it can be but I would never say she should not be a mom. 

[wendyg]

I think it's perfectly reasonable for a close friend to say, "I think you'd make a great mom, but having a baby in order to fix yourself and your life isn't going to work for either you or the child, and this is a big decision because you can't just take the child back to the store if you don't like it. Maybe think about it a little longer, and try reading to kids at the library and see if you still want to do it in a few months."

[Aliconehead]

While it's reasonable to say that, you should be prepared to lose that friend. Some one in that frame of mind, where they are already at the doctor has made up her mind. Encouraging her to read to kids, babysit kids, spend time with kids, see a counselor to deal with the grief, all reasonable. Telling her not to have a kid can get you dumped by said friend when she needs you most. 

[possibilities]

I think you have to weigh your role as an enabler/codependent and your role as a supportive but sane point of view, and ask yourself what your priorities are. I know Christy isn't her sponsor, but still-- Jill's behavior is dangerous and impulsive and not sober, and they are supposedly in a group together because they are committed to sobriety. If your sober buddies have to rubber stamp every crazy thing you do, why bother? You can't control what your friends do, but you don't have to endorse it all the time either. There's also the possibility that later they will say: "Why didn't you try to stop me? What kind of friend are you?" if you don't even try.

[Chaos Theory]

I think there is a middle ground in these situations.  You be the voice of reason but ultimately support the person's decision.  Christy could have been told Jill how she felt but when she realized she wasn't going to change Jill's mind been their for her friend.  But Christy played hard ball and Jill dug in her heals and now even if Jill does need someone to talk to or her want to change her mind it won't be to Christy.

Edited December 10, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[momtoall]

On ‎12‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 5:45 PM, MissLucas said:

There was a lot of complex issues packed into that episode and that's why I love this show.

I agree.  It does it so well.

[mamey2422]

This is a very minor detail but it bugged me so I'm wondering if anyone caught this as well. At the beginning of the episode, Bonnie was sitting in the AA meeting room when Jill talked about her mom's suicide. Bonnie then went up talking about how she wanted to kill her self because of her bad day and told Christy she should have given her a heads up. Bonnie was in the room so why did she need a heads up?

[theatremouse]

The point was Bonnie was there the whole time and not listening. Hence the rest of the episode they kept talking about how Bonnie doesn't listen.

[mamey2422]

12 hours ago, theatremouse said:

The point was Bonnie was there the whole time and not listening. Hence the rest of the episode they kept talking about how Bonnie doesn't listen.

Ahhh. Thanks!

[iMonrey]

This show really isn't afraid to go dark is it? Christy stealing twice from that boutique was kind of a surprising move for her. I loved the ending where we see her running past the restaurant window. 

I still feel like Adam should cut his losses and make a run for it but maybe he has a hard time finding women who are willing to be with a guy in a wheelchair.

[abstractstuff]

They should both cut their losses and run. Bonnie is too strong willed for him, and, he's just a prick. 

[MaryMitch]

"Freckled Bananas and a Little Schwinn" -  I'm glad the show is not going to focus on Jill's quest to be a mother.

I was saddened to see Christy choose to deal with that rude saleswoman by shoplifting, but - as we've discussed - she hasn't had the best upbringing and role models.  But I was a bit surprised that she was fussing at Bonnie while wearing the stolen sun glasses. And I was expecting Bonnie to rat her out to the cop.

[theatremouse]

This one defied logic a little too much for my tastes. I do buy Christy as that childish. I do not buy her not having greater fear of being arrested. The writing of this one was firmly planted in "it does/doesn't happen because it was/wasn't written to and for no other reason". Forced and unearned.

[Big Mother]

I actually can buy Christy impulsively grabbing those sunglasses bc the woman in the store really got her upset. I can also see why Bonnie did what she did, too. both were stupid moves but  both made sense given where bonnie and christy were both coming from.

I wanna punch that blonde in the face.

(Then again, Bonnie and Christy dont have to buy in such a pricey store for Jill. For something she hates. You can buy so well in big department stores, or online, way better.)

[theatremouse]

Impulsive grab, I maybe buy. But as her mother was buying something, with a credit card, she called her mom and then left with the grabbed item, after pocketing it. So if the saleslady had noticed what she did, they possibly have a very easy way to track down if not her, her mother. Mainly, the going back to the store ever again what was struck me as especially moronic.

Edited December 19, 2016 by theatremouse

[Michel]

Favorite exchange from the first episode of the new year:

Bonnie: I'm sorry.  I just can't wrap my head around it.  Twenty times?
Christy: She's probably exaggerating.
Bonnie: When it comes to sex, women round down, Christy, not up.
Christy: (Puzzled.)  We do?
Bonnie: (Incredulously.)  You don't?
Christy: I didn't, but I will now.

Only thing is . . . what's meant by "rounding down," and do women do that?

Nice to see Nicole Sullivan outside of Black-ish, where she plays the socially clueless Janine.  She played drunk pretty well.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Michel

[chocolatine]

I thought it was very inconsiderate of Adam to invite his friends into Bonnie and Christy's home. He didn't warn Bonnie and Christy ahead of time about the couple's alcohol consumption, only after they were well on their way to getting plastered, he was like, "oh yeah, there's not enough wine in Napa for those two". He should have invited them to his place so that Bonnie would have had the option to leave when the drinking got out of hand.