Jump to content
Forums forums
PRIMETIMER
Lola16

Love It Or List It

Recommended Posts

Love It or List It -- Hilary & David in the Greater Toronto area

 

When a house no longer feels like home, homeowners are left with a big financial and emotional question: renovate or sell it? Love It or List It helps fed-up homeowners decide. In each hour-long episode Realtor David Visentin and designer Hilary Farr compete for the homeowners' final decision to stay or go. David's insider perspective on the real estate market helps target listings to prospective buyers, but Hilary is determined to show homeowners that, within their budget, she can transform their worn-out house into a castle they can love. If the owners decide to list it, Hilary's hard work adds to the home's resale value. It's a tough decision either way. Which choice would you make?

 

There are now updates on the HGTV website --- 1 year later look at the houses:

http://www.hgtv.com/love-it-or-list-it/show/index.html?vty=/loveitorlistit/index.html

There was a couple on where the husband was a real estate agent and the wife was a lawyer.  She was love it, he was list it.  They had 3 boys and 3 bedrooms in what looked like a townhouse but wasn't.  It had a small foyer which was overstuffed with clothes, shoes etc; laundry on the main floor which he hated; a small powder room that was used frequently that she demanded be removed; an upstairs with 3 small bedrooms and a huge family room which she wouldn't allow to be touched.  Hil removed the foyer so there's no coat/shoes storage, removed the powder room and installed a trough sink in the top floor bathroom for 85K.  The woman was incredibly argumentative and arrogant.  She decides to list it for the very changes that she requested.  If this wasn't fake, I'd probably pelt her with water balloons.  The kitchen of course looked pretty but the main floor lost a lot of functionality and the upstairs was a cluttered mess with post-its everywhere (the lawyer's idea of organization).

A house 2 doors down with an extra bedroom came on the market so they bought that and are incorporating Hilary's design changes from their listed house into this one.

Share this post


Link to post

The "year later" would be a nice feature if you could read it, but I don't have the patience for the videos, which are mostly what aired.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

I seriously cannot stand this show and it all boils down to the hosts and their bickering and smack talk. The smug 'I'm so going to win' schtick is so obviously fake and it grates on my last nerve.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post

This show has almost ruined HGTV for me.  Between the hosts bickering and the homeowner's unrealistic expectations, especially when structural, electrical or HVAC issues are found and their unwillingness to pony up the monies to fix them and make the designer take it out of the budget they were given.   

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

I stopped watching this show because of the unrealistic expectations of some of the homeowners.  Also it seemed like there was some disaster in every episode which meant they couldn't give them everything they promised in the beginning.  However the number one episode that turned me off was when one of the female homeowners had an absolute meltdown when they couldn't do her dream kitchen renovation.  The foundation of the house was crumbling and parts of it were actually missing.  She couldn't understand why they had to fix this problem instead of doing the kitchen.  I wish they'd done the kitchen and then filmed it after they slammed a door and the house fell down around her.  Another thing that turned me off was the fact the homeowners seemed to get nastier and nastier with each episode.  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

General discussion of the show can go right here!

 

I had to take a short break from this show, because I started to develop PTSD with the abuse that Hilary would get because she was preventing houses from collapsing due to bad foundations/electrical explosions/termite infestations. And then watching David be all, "too bad, so sad! Not!"

 

But I really do like it for the most part.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post

That is it exactly! "I can't believe you're taking the walk in closet with chandelier & wine bar from me just to fix the sinking foundation & faulty wiring. You obviously aren't understanding what I need Hillary." I agree that David seems unnecessarily triumphant at that type of info. I usually guess the choice most of the time, but sometimes the homeowners surprise me.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

Of all the things they do, I'm most frustrated by sacrificing bathrooms for showier things, even kitchens.

My all-time favorite line was from David, showing them the 3rd, the "ideal" house.  "Yes, you'll still only have one bathroom on the second floor, but WHAT a bathroom!"

A great consolation while most of the family is lined up with crossed legs in the hall, as mom luxuriates in the spa tub.
 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post

I'll say, however, that as much as I like Hillary's renos, generally, I find that she spends a lot on things that needn't be so expensive. Reupholster some furniture! Refinish/remake some! It'll be better quality than some of the stuff she gets to replace it.

I also chuckle at "custom builtins" when she says it. We saw the flatpack boxes, Hillary. Just because the crew installed them doesn't make it custom. 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post

I'm never buying a house in Canada.  Between the shoddy workmanship that Hillary has to work around and Mike Holmes' major reconstructions that have happened on his show - I'm guessing that most homes built there were done by the Monroe Brothers from Green Acres.

  • Like 12

Share this post


Link to post

The all time classic episode for me was the one in which the husband was a grumpy safety inspector who nitpicked everything in each house David showed them ("this outdoor step is a little slanted") and then Hilary discovered the old house was filled with asbestos!  I could't wait for that gasbag to get back to his decrepit house and be told that he, the beady-eyed safety inspector, was living in a house filled with asbestos.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post

This show is a fascinating study of  PeterPan self absorbed cheapskate asshats.  Most of those wives need divorce attorneys not new homes.   Folks if you decide to have children your life will change.  You can't still have your bachelor pad and pocketsful of money when you have little ones to care for.  

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post

General observations from binge watching:

1). Don't give Hillary a budget under $30,000 and expect a new kitchen, new bathroom and completely renovated bedrooms. It's not the price of things. I suspect that this is producer manipulation. People who have such issues with their homes know the price if these things. I would guess that they would have researched different home improvement costs before going on this show.

2). Why can't they add money to Hillary's side of the equation? I saw two shows yesterday where David showed people homes over their budgets and they in turn decided to list. Well, if they added that money onto their house they may have been able to stay. Why not add some to your budget as the problems arise? Stacks the deck against Hillary in my mind.

3). I want to see the next steps when they decide to list. Do they actually get the price they thought? Do they end up getting the dream home they listed for? Are they happy in the end they moved? Feels a little rushed and incomplete when they decide to list.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post

Kerrey92 - the answer to all your questions is the show is completely staged. They've already either loved it or listed it before the show is even shot. It's a typical "reality" TV show. But yeah, I find it hard to suspend disbelief, and therefore didn't enjoy the show, so stopped watching.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I don't like this show and stopped watching precisely for the reasons everybody has posted here. The homeowners don't do maintenance and upkeep on their century-old homes, so Hilary of course finds issues that compromise the safety of the current and future tenants. What's the point of new stuff if the house is going to fall apart or catch fire? And I love how they give David this exorbitant budget, like $800K and are even willing to add money, and yet they give Hilary a paltry-ass budget that they refuse to budge on that wouldn't give them their entire wish list even if there weren't any problems. If your reno budget is $30K, that sounds like DIY and not hiring professionals.

 

Also, I'm astounded that David continually goes way above the given budget to find a home despite the high budget he continually gets. I know this is Toronto, but I live in the highest-income county in the USA and the real estate market shows it. The budgets David is given would get you some damn fine houses here in a good neighborhood and our public schools are excellent.

 

What really bugs me, and I've bitched about this on TWOP, is how the homeowners will thoughtlessly breed past the capacity of their current home. That's something you're supposed to factor in before you conceive the first kid. But this show has couples that have several kids and the wife is a mere couple of weeks away from sluicing the next one and that's when they decide they need a new house or expansion renovations because there's going to be no room.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post

Having tired of the same formula, I tune in for the last 10 minutes to see Hillary's finished product and I usually like what I see. I subscribe to the HGTV mag, which is my porn. "I need to be alone for awhile, don't make me lock this door!"

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post

There are times when I think that I can't watch another episode and I give it a rest for a while, but then I'll turn it on and get hooked all over again.  It doesn't even matter to me if the "decision" isn't spontaneous.  I find it fascinating to watch the unrealistic expectations and the frustrations in the process.

 

I always wonder why the people don't give Hillary more money up front, to let her really go to town on their house.  She always does a really good job with what money she has, and she does make sure any structural/ultility issues are corrected on her watch.  That's what I would do.

 

I am constantly amazed at the ignorance of the homeowners regarding the state of their old homes.  I mean, haven't they ever looked around their basement or their attics, checked the siding or the downspouts?  Haven't they ever inquired into the price of repairs?

 

I also question those spouses who don't want to move when when their houses are fit to bursting with kids, the bathrooms don't work and there is no empty surface in the kitchens - just because it was the first home they bought together.  There is a place for sentimentality, but not when the quality of life within the home has degraded that much.

 

One show that really aggravated me was the one where the wife wanted the first floor half-bath removed so there would just be one bathroom in the house instead of two, and the husband gave in to her.  I think that they had two young children.  First of all, she decreased the value of that house with her request, secondly, as those kids get older, she's going to regret that choice when they start to monopolize it,

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Why can't they add money to Hillary's side of the equation? I saw two shows yesterday where David showed people homes over their budgets and they in turn decided to list. Well, if they added that money onto their house they may have been able to stay. Why not add some to your budget as the problems arise? Stacks the deck against Hillary in my mind.

 

Sing it. Even though I know the show is staged and fake, the premise completely favours David. All of Hillary's efforts add to the value of the house, making it more possible for the family to afford the inevitably more expensive perfect house he finds. 

 

I'm never buying a house in Canada.  Between the shoddy workmanship that Hillary has to work around and Mike Holmes' major reconstructions that have happened on his show - I'm guessing that most homes built there were done by the Monroe Brothers from Green Acres.

 

I assume you’re being snarky, but that’s inherently unfair. The concept of this show (and Mike Holmes’ show) is to deal with homes in disrepair. So of course, 100% of the homes shown are going to be in bad shape.

Canada has thousands and thousands of lovely homes, older and new, that are well-maintained and in good shape. But they won’t be featured on shows that specialize in houses that are falling apart. Although, you might notice that David always manages to find awesome homes in great shape.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

The big question I have always had is how do you sell a house in the condition most of them are in? So they estimate a value of X Based on a cursory walkthrough, then with Hillary's improvements the value goes up 1.5 times the amount they put in?

Of course it's all staged to make people believe the big jobs are all surprises, but really people, how did you not know your basement was leaking and the heating system was shot?! And is the furniture included in the repair / upgrade budget? Or do these poor people not get something because Hillary wants to use the budget to stage the house.

Share this post


Link to post

Well, that's the thing. Assume the show was not involved and Couple X wanted to sell their crapshack, thinking it was worth $500,000. But then a potential buyer's home inspection shows rotting floor beams or asbestos or knob-and-tube wiring - then what? They'd have to drop the price or pay for repairs; either way, they're out some money. So the show - fake or not - isn't telling them something they wouldn't eventually learn.

 

As for the furniture, yeah. Half the problem is clutter in these houses, so declutter and arrange the existing furniture nicely. Maybe add a rug or a storage cabinet, but I don't see the point in buying all new stuff, especially if they list it. And if it's part of the reno budget, then that's just more injustice for Hillary's side.

 

Although, sometimes she spends her budget on ridiculous upgrades, such as top-end toilets for $1,000. I'd rather have a regular toilet and a new closet, as would most people, if the budget is limited. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I realize they probably tell the homeowners to play their "sides" to the extreme, but I wish the homeowner who wants to sell wouldn't be so obnoxious to Hillary.  Fake or not, it's hard to watch the show when Hillary is all, "We found out your kitchen is on fire, and we had to spend some of the money to put it out," and the homeowner comes back with, "Well, if that means I'm not going to get an extra bedroom now, then I'm outta here."   I tend to get hooked on this show because sometimes Hillary comes up with interesting ways to make the home a better fit for the homeowners.  And then I get turned off because the homeowners annoy me.

 

The flip side to that is when Dave is showing the homeowners a new place, and the couple complains about the size of the master bath.  At least sometimes Dave can come back at them with, "Well, how big is the one you've got now?"  when he knows they don't have one.

 

Nine times out of ten, by the time they show the lists of what the homeowners want/need, it's easy to see whether they'll keep the house.  It bugs me to think that they film both endings to each episode, because it's unnecessary.  Just like the fake outrage and disapproval of the homeowners is unnecessary.  The premise of the show should be enough to let the story tell itself in each episode.

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post

What I would really like to see is the way it really works. I'd like to see a design consult, walkthrough, the designer and the homeowners working out a realistic budget, then the work and finished product.

The problem with these reality shows is it's hard to see what really goes into a renovation. No way in the real world does a designer and contractor go into a home and dictate design like these shows do. It might be boring and not have any drama, but I would love to see the whole process, for example for a full kitchen remodel. I'd like to see the draft design options presented, the budget discussions, then the work and reveal.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post

What I don't understand is, don't Canadian homeowners get a housing inspection before they buy their homes?  Isn't that a requirement?  Why do so many of them not know that they have asbestos or mold or mice or insect problems?

Share this post


Link to post

Inspections aren't a legal requirement in many places. Appraisals are, by many/most mortgage providers, but not inspections.

 

Add in, inspections can't always tell you about mold, mice, asbestos or other problems like that, because they can't open up walls during an inspection, and those kinds of problems often hide behind walls. 

 

And, well, there are bad inspectors, too. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post

Nitpick to the mods on the name of this thread - Hilary's name is spelled with 1 "l", not 2. Since Hillary Clinton, so many people make this mistake. Hilary is normally spelled with 1 "l". Hillary Clinton was name after Sir Edmund Hillary, the first person to climb Mt. Everest.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

Thanks, @chessiegal - in my defense, I'm sure 98% of the homeowners would have spelled it wrong, just because they hate her and her ideas so much! ;)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Why do so many of them not know that they have asbestos or mold or mice or insect problems?

 

Asbestos is something you only discover after you rip a wall open. Mold, mice and insects can occur after the current homeowners buy the house, especially if they don't take care of it. One small leak leads to mold, a tiny hole in the wall lets a mouse inside, etc. If they use one of those catch-and-release traps to get the mouse and let it go outside without fixing the hole, then duh. It's going to come back and bring friends.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

I am hating the wife (either Kelly or Robin) on tonight's new episode.  Her voice is so freaking annoying and her pronounced Canadian accent makes it worse.  She's a bitch to David.  I don't know how he doesn't just slap her and walk away.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I still like my version of this show, which is the first 10 minutes to listen to all the complaints and see the house before, then FF to the final reveal. That way it's a nice makeover show and I don't get my angry going over a bunch of ninny homeowners.

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post

I think that's how many watch the show. The fake drama is just too much, especially stretched out to fill an hour.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

I usually FF through all of the David-house-viewing stuff. I really don't see the point in seeing a bunch of houses they're NOT going to consider.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

We caught an old 2011 episode last night. It was a guy and his wife living in his grandmother's old home and his childhood home. I wasn't sure if I was watching Hoarders or LIOLI. "There is not enough space here for us". Really Sherlock? Trying cleaning up your shit and viola - new like house.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

There was one of those old home ones where the house had been in the guy's family for generations and the couple bought it from the guy's parents (or grandparents, I forget which).  It was a big old house on a nice piece of property but the wife didn't like it because it was too far away from the city.  There was plenty of room but the rooms were choppy.  That was the one where they had to axe the sun porch fix-up because of unexpected problems, and the wife didn't want to put any more money into the house.

 

I was really rolling my eyes with that one.  I would have gotten rid of the wife before the house - lol.  But in the end, IIRC, they decided to "love it".

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

Heh, maybe that needs to be a third option for the rational spouse. "Do you want to love it, list it, or lose the spouse?"

  • Like 11

Share this post


Link to post

 

Heh, maybe that needs to be a third option for the rational spouse. "Do you want to love it, list it, or lose the spouse?"

So true.

 

Actually I don't like Hilary and her partner on the show - and many of the couples they have on the show.

 

All in all I prefer Fixer Upper where I actually like the designer and the people they fix up the houses for.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

Did I FF too fast in the new one, or was Eddie missing?  Saw Fergus a lot, though.
One of the nicer couples they've had, and both had a sense of humor.
I was shocked at the prices, since this was the suburbs.  I figured this was the "farther out" that LIOLI and other shows tell them they'll have to go to find something in their price range.
But to be told that for $800k, you get one that will need work? 
I do root for a lot of these couples to list it, though.  The space just wasn't there.

 

Share this post


Link to post
The space just wasn't there.

 

 

I used to find myself thinking that all the time with this show.  I'm not sure if it's because I've got the fairly common American perception of "more is better" or if I'm just influenced by the opening shots of the couple's homes, since additional (or better-organized) space is the main thing most of them need.  So I used to always root for them to list.  Now, more often than not, I root for them to keep the space, except for when they obviously need an additional bedroom.  I've come to the conclusion that homes don't have to be big and sprawling and that small homes with kitchens that are separate from the family room can have more charm than open floor plans, but I draw the line at keeping a toddler's crib at the top of a flight of stairs or making kids sleep in a crawlspace.  I think Hilary has won me over.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

I thought this house though, was 1000 square feet, and that is SMALL but my standards, even with having more in the basement.

Share this post


Link to post

We caught an old 2011 episode last night. It was a guy and his wife living in his grandmother's old home and his childhood home. I wasn't sure if I was watching Hoarders or LIOLI. "There is not enough space here for us". Really Sherlock? Trying cleaning up your shit and viola - new like house.

Was this the one where Hilary marched the homeowners into their home and made them start decluttering themselves, on camera?  That was a very satisfying moment for me.  (If so, I think this was also the episode where Hilary was speechless on the pre-renovation home tour, to the point where David eased up on his usual schtick.)

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post

All 90% of these families need to do is purge their junk.

The first walk through shows each house full to the gills with old toys, piles of laundry, 20 pairs of shoes at the entry, every cosmetic they own on the bathroom sink counter, and just a general lack of housekeeping.

 

One assumes that all this is gone through and packed away for the renno- why can't they do that themselves beforehand to try learn how to manage their home?

Then as they tour new homes clearly staged for showings, all they can do is ohh and ahh at the cleared counters, pristine laundry rooms, and bedrooms with no piles of laundry or years worth of toys laying every damn where.

It's maddening!

 

I know it is hard- I struggle almost daily with what to keep, what to add, and what to recycle/toss/donate.

But I put my all of my crap away in the bathroom every morning, I fold and put away my laundry, and the garage gets a thorough cleaning out at least once a year. Kids toys are regularly sorted- if new ones come in old ones must go out. Clothing is gone through and donated. You just have to- otherwise it grows and grows and you look up one day and find yourself living in a pigstye.

 

I love this show, I do.

But I hate homeowners who think a renno or a new house is needed when all they really need to do is man up and learn how to run a house. I'd wager that nine times out of ten they get themselves into the same mess a year after the show no matter which option they choose.

 

It's infuriating!

Edited by Pestilentia
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post

Amidst all my fast-forwarding, I sometimes do stop to watch the final house tour, just to make sure it's considerably over budget and out of the homeowners preferred neighborhood.

 

There have been parents who wanted a new house because their child's playroom was too small to hold all the toys. Sigh. I won't drive it home, but we're all thinking it.

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post

We're watching one with a couple named Sachi and Cam who bought a house sight unseen on the other side of the country and then discovered it was too small for them. (Seriously, who does that? Couldn't they rent for a while in the new town before buying? And did they not ask what the square footage -- or whatever measurement system they use -- was in the house?) Anyway, we missed the opening. Does anyone know what city they are in?

 

That's what I always want to know: Where are they? Because the cost of the houses always boggles me. The houses these guys are looking at are $950,000 and above for 2,800 square feet, about 4 bedrooms and 3 bathrooms. I don't think I could spend that much on a house here unless we built it and added craploads of stuff no one needs. I don't think you could find a house that cost that much.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

I'm not even going to comment on how someone could buy a house without visiting, and then bitch about being fooled by "wide-angled cameras": too stupid to waste time on. However, I could not BELIEVE how Hilary ruined that lovely little craftsman-style cottege to box in the front porch to give those fools more room: the front of that house was so UGLY! I usually like her taste, but I didn't even continue looking to see what she did to the rest of the house; it didn't matter to me because I couldn't get past how destroyed the facade was.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post

Oy, so true! She turned a pretty cottage into a hybrid, no-style monstrosity. The interior was okay, but all that work and effort to make it into a contemporary house kind of broke my heart.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post

 

...bought a house sight unseen on the other side of the country and then discovered it was too small for them. (Seriously, who does that?...

I did.

The first time I saw my house was when we pulled into the driveway after having driven 1500 miles.

It is perfect.

I knew the area and had family tour it for me and take 100's of photos, but I never saw it in person.

Share this post


Link to post

The Cam and Sachi episode was unique in that the couple did decide to give Hilary more money once they saw that what she had to spend wouldn't get them anything close to what their wish list was. Although I heartily agree that Hilary did more harm than good to that charming little house. I hope that nice porch she converted didn't have a view of the shore. And she removed a fireplace? Yikes! In the winter by the water, a fireplace would be a very attractive feature.

 

But  I always wonder why, when Hilary finds the inevitable emergency repair that will wipe out a big chunk of her allocated budget, she doesn't make a stronger pitch for more money from the homeowners. While they are raging at her for being unable to remove knob-and-tube fire hazard wiring from the whole house AND give them a new four piece bathroom, why does she never point out that they apparently cannot lose anything by giving her more money? Because, according to the show, at least, every single one of her re-designs increases the value of the property by many thousands over the money spent. EVERY SINGLE ONE. Giving her more virtually GUARANTEES they will end up with substantially more equity in their home. So if they list it, they get the money spent back, plus more, and if they love it, they have gotten all the work done that they wanted, and a better value in the event they decide to borrow against it or sell it in the future.

 

I am assuming they were living in Toronto on the shore by Lake Ontario. The show is filmed in Canada, and the couple said at the beginning they had returned home to live close to family after living on the California coast. and they bought their lake house sight unseen because it was too much trouble to keep flying across country with a newborn to househunt. So that was my best guess at their location.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post

Yes, this show is fimed in Toronto and Vancouver - the two most expensive cities in Canada. It's akin to buying a 2800 sq. ft. 4-bedroom house in New York or L.A.

Frankly, to me, it's not worth living in a vibrant city to be house-poor for my entire life, except maybe for Vancouver (gorgeous city - ocean and mountain views!).

As for the cluttered houses, it drives me nuts but some of it is producer-driven. I mean, most people would pick up dirty laundry and close cabinet doors if a TV show was coming over to film, but the producer intent ally messes it up and had drawers and cabinets sitting half open with possessions spilling out just to emphasize that there is NOT ENOUGH ROOM!

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post

I did.

The first time I saw my house was when we pulled into the driveway after having driven 1500 miles.

It is perfect.

I knew the area and had family tour it for me and take 100's of photos, but I never saw it in person.

 

But at least you had family members look it over and take photos. You weren't relying solely on photos someone took to sell the house. Those photos are always going to show it in the best light possible. I don't understand how they didn't look at the square footage of the house, though, and figure out how small it was. They could also have asked for a floor plan with measurements so they could see the size of the rooms.

 

I am assuming they were living in Toronto on the shore by Lake Ontario. The show is filmed in Canada, and the couple said at the beginning they had returned home to live close to family after living on the California coast. and they bought their lake house sight unseen because it was too much trouble to keep flying across country with a newborn to househunt. So that was my best guess at their location.

 

If they have family there, couldn't family have looked over the house? And is there nowhere in Toronto to rent while they look for a house? It might be expensive, but it seems to me it's cheaper than buying a house you're going to end up hating enough to sell it and buy a different one.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

What puzzled  me also, was that they seemed surprised to find that the parking space was sold.  

Didn't they have an attorney look at what they were signing, especially in a long-distance deal?

I agree that the house looked like crap after the facade was changed.

With so little space in the back, I can't see why they even try for a bigger deck.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×