S02.E13: Dragonfly in Amber

[AZChristian]

27 minutes ago, foxfreakinmulder said:

I don't know why Brianna didn't have an English accent when both her parents did, even though she was born in America her parents spoke with an English accent.

Here in the southwest, we have a lot of residents who were born south of the border, and speak only Spanish at home.  It's very common that as soon as they started school, they learned to speak English with absolutely no Spanish accent.  I've had a lot of co-workers in that situation, and it's a little weird at first to see them switch from fluent, non-accented American English to fluent (and FAST) Spanish.

[Athena]

2 hours ago, foxfreakinmulder said:

I don't know why Brianna didn't have an English accent when both her parents did, even though she was born in America her parents spoke with an English accent.

Children learn to speak based on their environment growing up and since Brianna spent most of her time in an American environment with American media, she would have an American accent. However, as @AZChristian mentioned, many children from migrant households will also speak like their parents and switch their accents or languages when speaking to family. 

[Bort]

It really comes down to the individual person. Some people pick up their accent from their environment, some from their parents. I got mine from my parents (east coasters) instead of my environment. I'm constantly being asked when I moved to Texas, even though I was born and raised here.

[Cdh20]

4 hours ago, foxfreakinmulder said:

Well this episode gave me the feels. And since Netflix only has the first 2 seasons I don't know when or if I'll be able to watch season 3. I know I could rent the dvd but I only have one dvd player and that's in the front room where my granddaughter plays and I won't watch this in front of her.

I really want to know what happens to Jamie and Murtagh during the battle and of course  Fergus. I guess I'll have to spoil myself and read season 3 threads 😞

I'm surprised Claire gave in so easily and agreed to go threw the stone because as mentioned above she could have left with Fergus and stayed and with Jamie's sister until she knew what happened to Jamie. She could always go to the stones to return back to the 1940's but there was no guarantee that Frank would take her back or that he hadn't remarried so why not wait and see?

It was weird that Jamie was tracking Claire's menstrual cycle, I wished he knew because she was having morning sickness or tired all the time, just something other than you've missed your period. And was she going to tell him? He was getting ready to go battle.

I hope Claire's right about Black Jack's date of death, and I hope it's Jamie that ends him.

I wasn't sad to see Dougal go, I didn't care for him and he showed his true colors at the end.

I think Claire and her daughter will both go through the stone but I'd be worried it will take me back to a different time then what I wanted. I hope it's 20 years later in Jamie's time too so he's not still young and she's in her 50's. She did look great at that age though.

I don't know why Brianna didn't have an English accent when both her parents did, even though she was born in America her parents spoke with an English accent.

I know it will be very hard to not spoil yourself but I suggest you don`t do that. (I would run out & buy the dvd`s for season 3 & 4 right now,  I bought season 3 on iTunes because I was in no mood to wait for Netflix.) I can`t believe people like to spoil themselves or read ahead, then there are no surprises. Of course I do know how obsessive this show makes us, why am I here during Droughtlander re-reading what people thought about the episodes??

[toolazy]

The reason that Jamie tracks Claire's menstrual cycle is because he is very young who wants to get laid.  Those two go at it like bunnies so he's going to know when she has her period and when she doesn't.  

[Mezzaluna]

I had the same problem - only Seasons 1 and 2 on Netflix. But our county library system had season 3 and 4 on DVD, so that's how I got to see them.

[Ziggy]

On 7/15/2019 at 11:42 AM, foxfreakinmulder said:

Well this episode gave me the feels. And since Netflix only has the first 2 seasons I don't know when or if I'll be able to watch season 3. I know I could rent the dvd but I only have one dvd player and that's in the front room where my granddaughter plays and I won't watch this in front of her.

I agree, this is a very serious dilemma!  I remember my co-worker and I discussing how to watch this show with kids around, but at the time we both had a dvd drive in our laptops and would watch the show with earbuds!

You could also check Amazon.  They have a Starz subscription, and you just pay each month (cancel at anytime).  I watched one season that way - only had to pay for 2 months.  I was watching that season when it aired.  Depending on how much time you have to watch the show, you could finish both Season 3 and Season 4 in a month but definitely within 2 months.

[foxfreakinmulder]

1 hour ago, Ziggy said:

You could also check Amazon.  They have a Starz subscription, and you just pay each month (cancel at anytime).  I watched one season that way - only had to pay for 2 months.  I was watching that season when it aired.  Depending on how much time you have to watch the show, you could finish both Season 3 and Season 4 in a month but definitely within 2 months.

Thank you Ziggy for the suggestion. I didn't know Amazon rented seasons that way, I'll look into it. I also didn't think about watching it on my pc which is in my bedroom so that might be an option too. Thanks again :-)

[toolazy]

9 hours ago, foxfreakinmulder said:

Thank you Ziggy for the suggestion. I didn't know Amazon rented seasons that way, I'll look into it. I also didn't think about watching it on my pc which is in my bedroom so that might be an option too. Thanks again 🙂

Amazon doesn't rent the seasons - it sells subscriptions to premium services like Starz & HBO, so you'd have access to everything on Starz for the time that your subscription is active.

[foxfreakinmulder]

59 minutes ago, toolazy said:

Amazon doesn't rent the seasons - it sells subscriptions to premium services like Starz & HBO, so you'd have access to everything on Starz for the time that your subscription is active.

Oh, okay. Thank you for letting me know :-)

[Digs]

Hi, new here! Just finished season 2 and this series has been quite fascinating! I am rewatching this episode as I didn't realize it was the season finale, lol. But super important question: Anyone know what lip color Claire is wearing in 1968? XD I love it, seriously. But anyways, going to rent the dvd so I can continue on the series. 

[Hanahope]

Just finished S2 of my Netflix watching.  So a bit of a summary of the season, its so frustrating how stupid BPC was.  Jamie was a near military genius and everything he said came true and/or would have worked, but BPC kept listening to that fool general John.  Claire was right, they made a hero out an absolute idiot. Instead of saving Scotland, he destroyed it.  I guess you can't change big things.

So if Roger is the MacKenzie "heir" (wasn't that what the family tree showed, that he was supposedly direct descendant of Colum), what happened to Hammish and his descendants?  since the MacKenzie's never formally took part of the rebellion, wouldn't Castle Leoch and that clan have been spared? I know there was a gravestone for MacKenzie, but they had, what, 3-4 guys tops?  or was there more?  Oh and who raised Hammish?

Ah, so close to Geillis, but couldn't 'change' history too much, or she would have recognized Claire back in 1743.  How did Geillis know she'd get sent back to the "right time" to do anything to help BPC?  Since Claire, who 20 years previously landed in 1743 and Geillis obviously landed some years earlier.

I loved how they showed 1968 a bit dull and muted with browns around Claire, but the moment she learns Jamie survived Culloden, the color suddenly brightens up.  Great way of showing that Claire just listed through life without Jamie, in another world indeed.

Looking forward to starting S3.  Hope we get to see Murtagh and Fergus again too.  Guess locations will have to change again (eventually), since Red Jamie is pretty noticeable.  he won't get a pardon this time.  

Sad seeing Lallybrook in ruins.  I know so many manor houses went into disrepair as owners couldn't keep up the repairs without sufficient income, but it looks like it was abandoned a good long time previously.  fire maybe?

 

 

 

 

 

[Cdh20]

It's so fun to think back to the first time I watched it & had no idea where the story was going!! Hope you continue to enjoy Hanahope.

[Haleth]

3 hours ago, Hanahope said:

So if Roger is the MacKenzie "heir" (wasn't that what the family tree showed, that he was supposedly direct descendant of Colum)

Putting this in spoilers even though surely this was established by now, but just in case:

Spoiler

Roger is descended from Dougal, not Colum.

 

[Hanahope]

Yes, I got that.  But he was given to another MacKenzie family, and I wondered what happened to Hammish’s descendants and why Roger was shown as descended directly from Colum.  

[toolazy]

23 hours ago, Hanahope said:

Yes, I got that.  But he was given to another MacKenzie family, and I wondered what happened to Hammish’s descendants and why Roger was shown as descended directly from Colum.  

Where was it shown that he was descended from Colum?

[Miss chi chi]

I’ve rewatched this episode too many times. Still makes me cry when Jamie sacrifices Claire and his baby for their safety. Loved the scene with Jamie and Murtaugh that he would die with Jamie. But I can’t believe that no one on this entire thread has not commented on when Jamie told Fergus that loved him as his own son!! One of my favorite scenes evah!!

Edited March 5, 2020 by Miss chi chi

[Ziggy]

On 3/3/2020 at 8:25 PM, Hanahope said:

Yes, I got that.  But he was given to another MacKenzie family, and I wondered what happened to Hammish’s descendants and why Roger was shown as descended directly from Colum.  

When did they show the genealogy?  I think I remember it at some point, but I truly do not remember the episode.  Was it in this episode or a previous one?

Edit - I'm really asking when you saw anything that said Roger was descended directly from Colum.  I'm just really curious.

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Ziggy

[Cdh20]

On 3/3/2020 at 7:25 PM, Hanahope said:

Yes, I got that.  But he was given to another MacKenzie family, and I wondered what happened to Hammish’s descendants and why Roger was shown as descended directly from Colum.  

In case you missed it-it was actually Dougal who is fathered Hamish(109), & also Roger's descendant (213)-the war chief (Dougal) & the witch (Geillis).

9 hours ago, Ziggy said:

When did they show the genealogy?  I think I remember it at some point, but I truly do not remember the episode.  Was it in this episode or a previous one?

 

Claire got Roger's family tree from the lady at the library in 213, & Colum told her in 212, about who they gave Dougal & Geillis' son to.

[Ziggy]

6 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

In case you missed it-it was actually Dougal who is fathered Hamish(109), & also Roger's descendant (213)-the war chief (Dougal) & the witch (Geillis).

Claire got Roger's family tree from the lady at the library in 213, & Colum told her in 212, about who they gave Dougal & Geillis' son to.

Right, I was just tryiing to find the actual moment that the audience could see the family tree.  Hanahope said the show said Roger descended directly from Colum, and I was curious as to when that happened since I didn't remember it.

[Cdh20]

1 hour ago, Ziggy said:

Right, I was just tryiing to find the actual moment that the audience could see the family tree.  Hanahope said the show said Roger descended directly from Colum, and I was curious as to when that happened since I didn't remember it.

I don’t think we saw it🤷🏼‍♀️

[Cdh20]

Ziggy, are you watching 213 to see if they show Roger’s family tree? I might watch it later because now it’s bugging me😛.

[Hanahope]

On 3/4/2020 at 9:24 PM, toolazy said:

Where was it shown that he was descended from Colum?

I thought we saw that in one of the first episodes in S1.  I could be wrong, but I thought there was a family tree with Roger at the bottom and Colum at the top that the reverend showed Claire and Frank.

Edited March 6, 2020 by Hanahope

[Cdh20]

2 hours ago, Hanahope said:

I thought we saw that in one of the first episodes in S1.  I could be wrong, but I thought there was a family tree with Roger at the bottom and Colum at the top that the reverend showed Claire and Frank.

The only family tree the reverend & Frank were talking about was Frank's with Black Jack Randall at the top!

[Ziggy]

3 hours ago, Hanahope said:

I thought we saw that in one of the first episodes in S1.  I could be wrong, but I thought there was a family tree with Roger at the bottom and Colum at the top that the reverend showed Claire and Frank.

I'm going to have to watch it again, now 🙂  It's nice to have an excuse!

[Camera One]

Just when I was questioning whether I wanted to continue watching this series, this finale really changed it up.  I did not expect a 20-year time jump into the 1960s.  While it was fun to see Geillis, and it was nice to see the daughter acknowledge that Claire was telling the truth, I wonder if they wrote themselves into a corner with this one.  I'm not sure how a Claire in her 50s with greying streaks in her hair would work on the show full-time, unless she brought hair dye back with her.  

I was actually hoping Claire and Frank would stumble upon a time portal in 1950s America, and he could experience stepping back into history as well. I liked Roger, and now I'm hoping that Claire, Roger and the daughter all went back together, since it looks like Frank is out of the picture for good now (which means we get more Black Jack Randall, ugh).

I didn't like how they made Claire into a distant mother and wife to the point where even her daughter questioned if she loved Frank.  I did like that she became a surgeon, though.

I was disappointed we didn't actually get to see the battle itself.  They better not kill off Murtaugh.

Did they abandon the plan to poison Bonnie Prince Charles after the Dougal "incident"?  I kept assuming they would go back to it.  I was surprised they killed off Dougal since it would have been an interesting storyline to see how he would handle Jaime being Hamish's guardian and losing his leadership role.  Though realistically speaking, Dougal would have died in the Battle or would have been arrested and executed.

I'm glad I went back and re-watched half of Season 1.  I would not have remembered much of Geillis if I hadn't.  I found there were quite a lot of references mentioned again in Season 2... Je suis Prest, for example.  In my rewatch, I lost interest halfway through "The Wedding" and I wish I rewatched the witch trial because I forgot Geillis had a child with Dougal.  Though I hated seeing that in Season 1, and I was thinking I wasn't as into the show after "The Garrison's Commander" onwards.  

Season 1's first half's structure worked for me, exploring Scottish society and culture with a very clear goal for Claire, to get back home.  From "The Garrison's Commander" onwards, it became a series of contrived obstacles highlighted by violence, with no payoff, since Claire never got back home and we're clearly meant to see Claire/Jaime as end-goal.   With the exception of a few episodes, Season 2 didn't work too well either.  There was no suspense that Claire and Jaime would change history because we saw the future.  That made the first half in France feel futile from the start, and the second half in Scotland difficult to believe, in terms of Claire and Jaime thinking the Jacobites could win, just because.  

Now, I'm really curious what Season 3 is going to be like, though as I said before, I have a lot of trepidation because I don't want to see a permanently older Claire.  I suppose there could be a 20-year time jump in the past, too.  I was thinking that it would be fun to see Breanna and Roger time-travelling too, but then again, they'd both probably be raped, so there goes the fun.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Camera One

[Beeyago]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I didn't like how they made Claire into a distant mother and wife to the point where even her daughter questioned if she loved Frank.  I did like that she became a surgeon, though.

She definitely was a difference person in the 20th century versus the 18th century.  Which i guess is the point.

 

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Did they abandon the plan to poison Bonnie Prince Charles after the Dougal "incident"?  I kept assuming they would go back to it. 

Me too.  So it was all for naught?? lol

[gingerella]

My god that was good! And terrible at the same time. Good in so many ways - getting to meet Brianna and wee Roger all grown up, 1968 surgeon Claire and her righteous bouffant - the whole 1968 portions I thought I'd hate but I really enjoyed them and the contrast between 1740's Scotland and 1968 Scotland. And again so bittersweet that nearly 220 years later, and even today, Scotland is still grappling for it's independence. But I digress...and bad in that we end S02 knowing that we still have to endure the whole Culloden battle in S03, uch, I do not look forward to that, but at least we know Jamie survives...please let Murtagh and Fergus survive too. So where does one even begin?!

1968 Scotland

I loved the opening scenes and seeing the Reverend's house again, and realizing that Roger was wee Roger with his little airplane. The thing that threw me a bit in this and really the entire episode, was Brianna's accent and mannerisms. I realized afterward that she is the only person who was speaking with an American accent so perhaps that, and her very forward and brusque mannerisms made her a bit clunky if you will, and it was awkward watching and hearing her, at least for me. But then ironically she is more or less an Outlander amongst the rest of the characters in this episode, despite her father being a Scotsman. So well played books? It felt a bit fast how she fell for Roger but I'm willing to get over it because maybe they're meant to be like Jamie and Claire were meant to be and at least they met in their own time zone!

When Claire is visiting Culloden and talking to the Clan Fraser stone, telling Jamie all about Brianna, it was so damn sad! I kept wishing there was some way for Jamie to hear her on the other side and had to remind myself that she is talking to a stone. When she said 'goodbye' finally, and 'rest easy soldier' that was when the first wave of tears came. I kept yelling to the TV for most of the episode, 'Claire, girl, GO TO THE DAMN STONES ALREADY, YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO!' but then I realized at the end, it wouldn't have been enticing to go knowing that Jamie was dead. And when we saw Lallybroch in disrepair, that hurt too - it was as if step by step, Culloden's Clan Fraser memorial stone, a decaying Lallybroch, the dragonfly in amber - all the things that she knew had been but were no more - they all pointed to the cosmos telling her that Jamie had died at Culloden and everything she had loved went downhill from there - Lallybroch, the way of life she grew to appreciate, etc. I appreciated the pan back when she was leaving Lallybroch because we were able to see there was no longer a roof, and it was common to remove a roof on purpose to avoid roof taxes there, so that was a nice touch. 

Geillis!!! Whoa, finally we see her! Before we see her, just by her voice I knew it was her and suddenly it all made sense, THIS is why she went back, she honestly thought she could stop BPC and the Rebellion and change history. She's more nuts than I realize, and yet, she was able to get through the Stones so she's not a dummy either. But as soon as she lit her husband on fire I thought, "Girl, karma's a bitch, just you wait and see!" If only she realized what a poncy asshat BPC was, she would never have gone back, and I guess Roger would not have been born either.

So Roger is a distant relative of Dougal's son with Geillis, again, Whoa again! And huzzuh, I like that story! He's part of THAT MacKenzie Clan. Nice...

The whole Brianna being a bitch until she and Roger saw Geillis disappear through the Stones was sort of annoying but then again, who would believe a story like Claire's? It's insane really, so I guess I cannot blame her for dismissing her mother's explanations. But when she says to her mother at the end, "No more lies, only truth between you and me", that's another one of those 'mirror' scenes isn't it? It reminded me a bit of that scene between Jamie and Claire in S01, I think it was at Castle Leoch after their big fight, and he says something about there being "nothing between them, but respect and respect has room for secrets but not for lies" - anyway, it reminded me a bit of this scene as well because they're saying something very similar, and there have been so many mirror/similar scenes which I find quite interesting because they are always unique even though they're echoing a past scene. It was also incredibly sad to hear Brianna talk about her mother as always living in her own world, because it means she hasn't really forgotten Jamie at all, and she's been living a shell of her life for 20 years. So sad when we know how vibrant Claire was in the 1700's.

And when Claire learns that Jamie survived Culloden? OMG, I got chills the likes of which I cannot even explain! It was like a full body OMG moment, even though we know he survives because it's a series and he's the co-star, but still, I was surprised at how visceral my reaction was to that moment.  As she turns to the Stones and they are aglow, when they pan back to Claire and her face is bathed in a golden light, to me that again was a mirror scene to The Wedding, when Jamie describes seeing her on their wedding day and say's 'it was as if the clouds parted and the sun suddenly came out', and there we are, circling neatly right back to the day these two crazy kids got hitched and took a blood oath. Nice, satisfying story telling, that!

1746 Scotland

Okay, I loved this part more I guess, it's the familiar Outlander and it's what pulled me into this series in the first place so it felt like home during all the Culloden prelude scenes.

When I saw Dougal listening by the door I knew trouble was brewing, and not for nothing but CLAIRE! Girl, if you want to discuss something that sensitive, I'm fairly certain going somewhere outside and away from others would have been better than plotting murder of BPC in a quiet room in a draughty old manor house where somebody's always lurking! Anyway, at first I thought Dougal was going to go mano a mano because it seemed like he was taking off his sword but nah...That Claire essentially helped Jamie to kill Dougal was intense. I was hiding my eyes a wee bit but she basically helped support his hand and drive the dagger into Dougal, yes? Dougal, you stupid bastard, you had worn out your welcome you old coot, and there was just no place left for you anymore in this Scotland...I laughed when Murtagh was totally nonplussed and said, "I can't believe it took ye this long to do it." If only they'd listened to Murtagh in Paris and killed BPC when they had the chance to do it in a more clandestine way...

Fergus being sent back to Lallybroch with the deed to the house in wee Jamie's name, and both Jamie and Claire calling him their son, Hey, I'm not crying, you're crying! That kid is such a wonderful actor.

So all this brings me to the final scene with Jamie and Claire...my god that was gut wrenching. When he said, "I'll find you, if I have to endure 200 years of pergatory for what I've done..." Annnnd again, we're back in the street that rainy night in Inverness 1945, with Jamie's ghost or spirit or whatever, gazing up at Claire in the inn's window. Yes, he waited 200 years, but he did find her again...*sigh* Another nice circle back!

The Ring mystery is solved too! So it wasn't the sudden silver signet ring he gave her after all, it was another ring of his father's with an amethyst stone and it was that amethyst stone that Claire was desperately searching for when she lands back in 1948 and is looking in the grass for the ring that fell out of her pocket. I wonder if she'll find that stone before she goes back through again...

Things that confuse me:

So...this loud buzzing that Claire hears at the Stones, it was there when Jamie tried to send her back the last time, but he didn't mention anything about not hearing it. This time, he says he hears nothing, but she does. And when Claire, Brianna and Roger are at the Stones, all three of them hear the sound, don't they? So I wonder why Jamie cant hear it but they all can? Maybe you cannot travel forward through time, hence Jamie cannot hear it, but only those traveling backwards can hear it. Though that's not right because Jamie could travel farther back than his current time... Maybe it's what I've been thinking all along, which is that the Stones have a mind of their own and it is they that call those who are destined to travel through them...though that begs the question about Geillis because her travel was sort of premeditated and researched, so there goes my theory...again!

Also, how far are the Stones from everything? Because these folks are riding horses to get to them but it seems easy enough to get to from Castle Leoch, from Lallybroch, and from Culloden. They always act like it's a hop, skip and a jump, which irks me. Horses cannot just run flat out for an hour or more, they have to rest.

ETA: I feel the need to start S03 this weekend and get Culloden behind me already...and hopefully the final, absolute, no BS death of BJR, if there's any justice in this Story...

Edited May 6, 2021 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

Sorry but this episode calls for a long post.

First off, I can't help but compare the experience of watching a show unspoiled by knowledge of the story or or even advertizing after it's been on air 5 (or is it 6?) Seasons—with my other Completely Unspoiled viewing experience watching GoT. It must be said that nothing compares with the GoT experience. It was a one off and I am not likely to do it again—although it was very rewarding for the first few years. But I didn't realize how much the knowledge of the many future Seasons would affect my viewing of Outlander. As @gingerella has mentioned previously, certain cliffhangers lack the impact they might have had due to my knowledge that the main characters will still be around (or likely be around) for a long time. 

Luckily the story is complex enough that I can still be blind-sided by a reveal of this or that character's back story. 

~~~~~

I loved that they started the episode with a snippet of The Avengers to set the scene in 1968—if you are old enough to know. 😉  If only Diana Rigg could be sandwiched into every show. R.I.P. Dame Diana. You had an amazing run. And I wouldn't be surprised to see you on my screen for years to come. 

Then they started with a bunch of characters we've never met—not in a form we would recognize. AND we're back in Inverness!

Current century:

Frank Randal and Rev Wakefield are dead. Baby Randal/Fraser and little orphan Wakefield are all grown up! Geillis is alive and agitating—that was a great, albeit belated, back story I was happy to get—and briefly, unknowingly, meets her 7 times great grandchild!

Frank seems to have gotten what he wanted and doted on his acquired daughter. A parallel to HIS ancestor JBR (also father to a child of another man) but with enthusiastic acceptance on Frank's part. I'm good with his death, but I can't help but think we will be seeing him in flashbacks. Because that seems to be how this show rolls. (Sorry @gingerella)

I liked:

• how the link up of the current characters to those from Claire's life in the past were doled out to us. But I did catch that Rev Wakefield's little “son” was probably decended from Dougal & Geillis' ill fated union when he revealed his birth parents last name.
• Claire became a surgeon! (I recalled our earliset flash back of her prepping a soldier for surgery while waiting for the surgeon to arrive. Nobody puts Claire in a corner now!)
• Knowing that Roger Wakefield was Dougal & Geillis' decendant I was pleased that their firey temperment wasn't a dominant gene in the line. Roger the level headed. ALTHOUGH... when he asked Claire how she finally said goodbye to that one person she loved most in the world I though he knew and was talking about Jamie! She, of course, WAS talking about Jamie, but he was probably referring to Frank. It took me a few ticks to bring Frank into the picture of that question (heh, heh).
• Brianna seeing the place where BJR had Jamie flogged 100 lashes twice in one week—and feeling a shiver. Then Roger tells us that prisoners were flogged—as if we could forget!
• And that Brianna knew that her daddy, Frank, had a terrible temper, but that he kept it tightly under wraps. (I almost forgot that tidbit in all the rest).
• When Claire tells Brianna that she did (love Frank) I heard the unspoken - or at least what I thought was love at the time - in my head.
• I really loved the seque from Dougal finding Jamie and Claire plotting BPC's death and the reveal of who Geillis was in 1968. Nicely done.
• The return of the Dragonfly in Amber (duh) if only briefly. It turns out that Claire had it in her pocket all this time! The miraculous bottomless pocket to match Jamie's bottomless sporran. 🙄 Plus, we actually got to see that ring that Gingerella researched and what it was. Jamie's father's ring with an amethyst stone.
• The passing info that Roger told Brianna of a letter where Rev Wakefield did enough research on BJR to counsel Frank to abandon his project of digging up historical info on BJR—citing “He's not the man I thought” as the reason. Protecting Frank from the truth.
• Jamie apparently had put a lot of thought into his likely death. 1) He'd drawn up a document giving Lallybroch to Jenny and Ian's 1st born son, Jamie Murray. AND he dated it a year previous—before BPC's letter branded him a traitor. (Now I forget what happened to the document I thought he'd signed giving his Fraser grandfather that property. Was that when Claire faked her “vision”?) 2) Plus—from how Claire reflected Frank to him—he believed in his heart that she would be safe and well cared for if he sent her back to Frank. 3) That he'd included saving Fergus in his plans and charged him with not only delivering the deed, but being a witness to the history that was unfolding. 4) That he fulfilled Colum's belief in why he would be a good guardian for Hamish and sent his clan off to safety before the battle started (the Lallybroch Frasers; as Rupert was the only Mackenzie living who followed Dougal into the rebellion). 5) And that he was observant enough to know that she was pregnant—using a more scientific basis than I did—being the timing of her periods (courses). (I based mine on one scene of Claire cradling her belly!) Always one to impress, that JAMMFraser!
• The moving final farewell Claire gave Jamie at the Clan Fraser cairn on Culloden moor in her current century. 
• I liked that Brianna saw her mother as living “in another world” when Brianna was a child. That may be why she was so close to Frank. And I liked that she accused her mother of contriving a reason to return to her lover in Inverness. Found her whole take on Claire's story believable—my mom is crazy and cheated on my beloved daddy. Plus I was OK that “seeing is believing” was enough for her to accept the truth of Claire's tale.
• The scene where Jamie and Claire declare they love Fergus like a son. We'd better learn more about what happened with Fergus next Season or I'll be really mad. 
• And no list of likes would be complete with out something about Murtagh, who wondered why “it took you so long” when Jamie confessed that he'd killed Dougal. And then would not be sent away with the Fraser Clan members because his place was fighting and dying beside Jamie. (I teared up) What's not to love about Murtagh I say!

I'm a bit iffy on:

• Mrs. Graham's granddaughter, Fiona, who gave off Leery-like vibes towards Roger W.  I wonder if she, too, will be found to have a generational connection to the people Claire knows from her sojourn in the 1700s?
• Roger W remembered Frank Randal as being very kind!!!?? Hummm. I don't remember seeing that in their interactions.
• Why does Claire have to have another cockamaime idea—kill BPC to stop the battle—that results in Jamie compromising his own principles?! And now he'll be outcast by his own clan! I could live without that. She never seems to learn. And if Rupert survived? The horrible stories that will spread about Jamie-the-traitor-to-the-cause-and-the-clan. 
• Claire helping Jamie stab Dougal and then looking aghast after! Nope. I can't relate to that portrayal. 

Things said this episode that I hope will be shown in Season 3:

• What happened to Fergus.
• That Jamie kills BJR at the Battle of Culloden (Jamie referenced his promise to Claire to spare BJR's life  as to why she had to go alone, but we know he was aware of when BJR dies and that his “offspring” is Mary and Alex's child so Frank will be born.)
• That Claire's return is the reason Jamie escaped being shot as a traitor with the other Fraser Officers.

And that's quite enough for one post.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Anothermi

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

THIS is why she went back, she honestly thought she could stop BPC and the Rebellion and change history.

Great post @gingerella. But I have to disagree with you on the bolded bit. Geillis was doing everything she could to have that battle result in a WIN! That's the connection she had with Dougal and why she was assisting to raise money. That's what she told Claire about why she travelled through the Stones—when they were deciding who should fall on their sword, so to speak, at the witch trial.

[gingerella]

10 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Great post @gingerella. But I have to disagree with you on the bolded bit. Geillis was doing everything she could to have that battle result in a WIN! That's the connection she had with Dougal and why she was assisting to raise money. That's what she told Claire about why she travelled through the Stones—when they were deciding who should fall on their sword, so to speak, at the witch trial.

Yes my friend, you are right, I got my thoughts a bit jumbled up there! What I meant was that she went back to change history's outcome - ie: the Highlanders win. BUT I wonder if she knew what fakey fake fake moron BPC was, would she have done what she did? If she'd seen how he sashayed about, more interested in eating and drinking and just becoming King without doing much, and without much thought to the men who would die for his personal cause, I don't know that she'd be so enamored with BPC anymore. In fact, I wanted to clap BRAVO! when Claire told that guy in the Culloden tourist place what an idiot BPC was and that they made a fool into a martyr or however she said that.

10 hours ago, Anothermi said:

A parallel to HIS ancestor JBR (also father to a child of another man) but with enthusiastic acceptance on Frank's part. I'm good with his death, but I can't help but think we will be seeing him in flashbacks. Because that seems to be how this show rolls. (Sorry @gingerella)

*groan* It appears I shall have to be a brave Viewing soldier and continue one knowing that I'll have to see BJR at least another time at Culloden, and then you're likely right, I've not seen the last of Frank either, though I was really quite surprised, in retrospect, that we go no Frank sightings last night. But thinking about it more, it makes sense because what we saw last night wasn't about Frank, it was strictly Claire, Jamie, and weeuns - Brianna and Roger. Frank/BJR are the bad penny that keeps turning up in my viewing life!

11 hours ago, Anothermi said:

And that Brianna knew that her daddy, Frank, had a terrible temper, but that he kept it tightly under wraps. (I almost forgot that tidbit in all the rest).

So this does sort of tie back to my thoughts on him having some of BJRs traits when he came at Claire, fists raised, after she told him everything...He just managed to keep his anger under control I guess, though he must have shown it some time if Brianna said that.

11 hours ago, Anothermi said:

The return of the Dragonfly in Amber (duh) if only briefly. It turns out that Claire had it in her pocket all this time! The miraculous bottomless pocket to match Jamie's bottomless sporran. 🙄

Right?!? Claire's pocket and Jamie's sporran are like the Mary Poppins bags of Outlander, you just never know what's hiding down inside them. I mean, carrying around a deed to Lallybroch and never getting it crushed or wet? That's some magical shit right there! 🤣

11 hours ago, Anothermi said:

The passing info that Roger told Brianna of a letter where Rev Wakefield did enough research on BJR to counsel Frank to abandon his project of digging up historical info on BJR—citing “He's not the man I thought” as the reason. Protecting Frank from the truth.

I thought that it was Frank that called off the research on BJR, telling the Reverend that he found out that BJR wasn't the man he thought he was. That would make sense because Claire might have told Frank about him at some point. I could easily see Frank going on about BJR in a bragging manner and Claire exploding and telling him what a sick psycho he really was. But I thought it was Frank who told the Rev to stop researching, or did I get that bit wrong?

11 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Jamie apparently had put a lot of thought into his likely death. 1) He'd drawn up a document giving Lallybroch to Jenny and Ian's 1st born son, Jamie Murray. AND he dated it a year previous—before BPC's letter branded him a traitor. (Now I forget what happened to the document I thought he'd signed giving his Fraser grandfather that property. Was that when Claire faked her “vision”?) 

IIRC, Jamie never actually signed that document. Their demented grandsire was holding both documents in hand when they had that gathering in his study, where Claire faked her vision. In the end I thought he decided to sign Colum's agreement to not take up arms against the British.

11 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Plus—from how Claire reflected Frank to him—he believed in his heart that she would be safe and well cared for if he sent her back to Frank.

It's too bad we never heard Claire speak of Frank to him in a way that would lead us to this, though it's obviously implied. Perhaps in the books they have conversations about Frank in more depth than what we've seen in the Show. She mentions him, but not in much detail, and I suppose if I was Jamie I'd not want to know much, but then again, Jamie's rather modern so maybe he'd know Claire needed to speak of Frank from time to time...again, maybe in the books.

And speaking of Jamie the Modern Highland Man, a husband who keeps track of his wife's cycle! I'm guessing not just to know when he can ravish her, but also so he'd not impose on her during that time of the month, because he's a sensitive and caring dude. That was such a surprising but impactful touch.

11 hours ago, Anothermi said:

That he fulfilled Colum's belief in why he would be a good guardian for Hamish and sent his clan off to safety before the battle started (the Lallybroch Frasers; as Rupert was the only Mackenzie living who followed Dougal into the rebellion).

I have to believe that Colum would have been very okay with Jamie killing Dougal under the circumstances, and might even have been relieved the same way Murtagh was!

11 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Mrs. Graham's granddaughter, Fiona, who gave off Leery-like vibes towards Roger W.  I wonder if she, too, will be found to have a generational connection to the people Claire knows from her sojourn in the 1700s?

OMG, yes! I felt the same creepiness from her too. Leery 2.0! She definitely seemed like she was trying to be his lady of the manor. One creepy Leery is enough Show, thank you very much. But that said, I was really sad we didn't get another meeting with Mrs. Graham because I wished she and Claire could have had one more conversation together.

11 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Things said this episode that I hope will be shown in Season 3:

• What happened to Fergus.
• That Jamie kills BJR at the Battle of Culloden (Jamie referenced his promise to Claire to spare BJR's life  as to why she had to go alone, but we know he was aware of when BJR dies and that his “offspring” is Mary and Alex's child so Frank will be born.)
• That Claire's return is the reason Jamie escaped being shot as a traitor with the other Fraser Officers.

Let's hope Fergus is alright, as are the men of Lallybroch. I wonder if Murtagh will be able to convince whatshisname - Rupert's new BFF - to lead the men back or if he'll insist on going into battle with Rupert. I hope he goes home, I like him. Which in GoTs premonitions means he will surely die!

@Anothermi, what do you mean on that last bolded point? That Claire eventually coming back 20-something years later will mean Jamie had to live, as in it was meant to be because they are meant to be?

[Anothermi]

7 hours ago, gingerella said:

BUT I wonder if she knew what fakey fake fake moron BPC was, would she have done what she did?

None of the Scots back home knew what an unsuitable leader BPC was because only Jamie, Claire and Murtagh interacted with him in Paris, and only the top officers of the Rebellion saw him in person during his brief appearance prior to Culloden. So, Geillis might have had a change of... direction if not of heart. She was never going to see him the way Claire did because she'd been steeped in the myth as Claire, as an English woman, had not.

7 hours ago, gingerella said:

I thought that it was Frank that called off the research on BJR, telling the Reverend that he found out that BJR wasn't the man he thought he was. That would make sense because Claire might have told Frank about him at some point. I could easily see Frank going on about BJR in a bragging manner and Claire exploding and telling him what a sick psycho he really was. But I thought it was Frank who told the Rev to stop researching, or did I get that bit wrong?

Ah you are right, lass. I managed to turn that scene about in my head. Possibly because Roger found the letter? Brianna said that Frank called it off with "not the man I thought".

7 hours ago, gingerella said:

IIRC, Jamie never actually signed that document. Their demented grandsire was holding both documents in hand when they had that gathering in his study, where Claire faked her vision. In the end I thought he decided to sign Colum's agreement to not take up arms against the British.

Thanks for confirming that. I'd forgotten that Grandsire Fraser decided to hedge his bets at the last moment.

7 hours ago, gingerella said:

It's too bad we never heard Claire speak of Frank to him in a way that would lead us to this, though it's obviously implied.

I wasn't implying that they spoke of Frank together, but that Jamie saw how much Claire didn't want to do anything that might harm Frank or prevent him being part of her world. That's why I used the phrase "reflected to him". Claire may have just been protecting her path to Jamie, but it could be taken as enough for Jamie to have confidence in Frank. Enough confidence to entrust Claire to him again—and possibly for the rest of her life.  On reviewing that scene I noticed  Jamie asks her to speak to Frank:

Tell him what you will about me... About us.  It's likely he'll no want to hear, but if he does... Tell him I'm grateful. And tell him I trust him, and tell him I hate him to the very marrow of his bones.

7 hours ago, gingerella said:

@Anothermi, what do you mean on that last bolded point? That Claire eventually coming back 20-something years later will mean Jamie had to live, as in it was meant to be because they are meant to be?

Claire and Jamie have been saving each other from tight situations for two Seasons. My projection was that Claire returns because she knows Jamie survived Culloden and she returns in time to plan a way to prevent him from being shot as a traitor. 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Anothermi
spelling

[Cdh20]

11 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

Claire may have just been protecting her path to Jamie, but it could be taken as enough for Jamie to have confidence in Frank. Enough confidence to entrust Claire to him again—and possibly for the rest of her life.  On reviewing that scene I noticed  Jamie asks her to speak to Frank:

Tell him what you will about me... About us.  It's likely he'll no want to hear, but if he does... Tell him I'm grateful. And tell him I trust him, and tell him I hate him to the very marrow of his bones.

Claire and Jamie have been saving each other from tight situations for two Seasons. My projection was that Claire returns because she knows Jamie survived Culloden and she returns in time to plan a way to prevent him from being shot as a traitor. 

I think Jamie trusts that if Claire loved Frank, & Frank loves Claire, because she is extraordinary that Frank will be the man he (Jamie) would be & take Claire back & raise his child. 
 

So you think Claire waits 20 years to go back but 20 years has not passed in Jamie’s time? 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Cdh20
Adding a thought

[Anothermi]

5 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

So you think Claire waits 20 years to go back but 20 years has not passed in Jamie’s time? 

As Claire says, I don't know how this all works. This time travel stuff. So I'm projecting from what I've seen to this point. I don't expect to be right. 

[Cdh20]

@ gingerella, my first wave of tears comes at the realization that Claire has been gone for 20 years, so I am on about round 3 by the time she says goodbye to the Fraser stone at Culloden. 
 

One of my fave moments is Jamie knowing she is pregnant! Wow! 

[gingerella]

1 hour ago, Anothermi said:

As Claire says, I don't know how this all works. This time travel stuff. So I'm projecting from what I've seen to this point. I don't expect to be right. 

Girlll, same! Every time I think I've figured out the time travel stuff I realize that it can't be what I thought it was, though @Pallas's offline explanation really helped me figure out the basics!

1 hour ago, Cdh20 said:

@ gingerella, my first wave of tears comes at the realization that Claire has been gone for 20 years, so I am on about round 3 by the time she says goodbye to the Fraser stone at Culloden. 
 

One of my fave moments is Jamie knowing she is pregnant! Wow! 

Right?! I wanted to say above and forgot, that when Claire realizes what Jamie is asking her to do, the look on her face - I want to say it's sheer terror, but that's not the right word either. She is so bereft at the thought of having to leave him thinking he's headed for certain death. And despite trying to escape Leoch and trying to get to the Stones again when Jamie goes to meet Horrocks, she is so fully in now, there is no turning back for her now, not with this love she feels for Jamie, and now he's telling her she has to go back, to Frank, to a life she no longer wants, to a life that she didn't realize she didn't want until she found Jamie and this love that very few ever experience. It's not terror or horror but it's such an intense and amazing expression, it made the pit of my stomach fall out a little bit.

Also, I was driving around today and was thinking about what Brianna said about Claire always being a sort of distant mother, who lived in her own world. Even though Jamie made her promise to forget him - which correct me if I'm wrong but did we see him asking that of her in this episode because maybe I missed it but don't recall it - anyway, he asks her to not live in the past and to move on and life her life with Frank. And even though she tells Brianna she kept her word, I don't think she really did because I'm pretty sure, Claire being Claire, that she threw herself into her work as a surgeon. She was an Army nurse during a war and while that may bring a stretching of her nursing duties into more of a doctors realm when doctors were not available, she was a nurse. But in Jamie's world she is a healer that grows into a doctor, dentist and surgeon. So I can see her becoming a doctor/surgeon when she returns to Frank so that she can at least continue the work she was doing when she was with Jamie. It's a touchstone of sorts, to that world, to Jamie. She can drown herself and her sorrow, her and longing, her emotional pain , in healing others and at the same time feel closer to Jamie and that life, even if only in her mind. They didn't say how long it had been since Frank had died, but I wonder why she didn't at least try to find out if Jamie lived or died at Culloden. Once Frank died, she'd kept her word and I feel like she could do as she pleased at that point. The fact that she hadn't even told Brianna of Jamie once Frank died is...interesting...

[Cdh20]

9 minutes ago, gingerella said:

 

Right?! I wanted to say above and forgot, that when Claire realizes what Jamie is asking her to do, the look on her face - I want to say it's sheer terror, but that's not the right word either. She is so bereft at the thought of having to leave him thinking he's headed for certain death. And despite trying to escape Leoch and trying to get to the Stones again when Jamie goes to meet Horrocks, she is so fully in now, there is no turning back for her now, not with this love she feels for Jamie, and now he's telling her she has to go back, to Frank, to a life she no longer wants, to a life that she didn't realize she didn't want until she found Jamie and this love that very few ever experience. It's not terror or horror but it's such an intense and amazing expression, it made the pit of my stomach fall out a little bit.

Also, I was driving around today and was thinking about what Brianna said about Claire always being a sort of distant mother, who lived in her own world. Even though Jamie made her promise to forget him - which correct me if I'm wrong but did we see him asking that of her in this episode because maybe I missed it but don't recall it - anyway, he asks her to not live in the past and to move on and life her life with Frank. And even though she tells Brianna she kept her word, I don't think she really did because I'm pretty sure, Claire being Claire, that she threw herself into her work as a surgeon. She was an Army nurse during a war and while that may bring a stretching of her nursing duties into more of a doctors realm when doctors were not available, she was a nurse. But in Jamie's world she is a healer that grows into a doctor, dentist and surgeon. So I can see her becoming a doctor/surgeon when she returns to Frank so that she can at least continue the work she was doing when she was with Jamie. It's a touchstone of sorts, to that world, to Jamie. She can drown herself and her sorrow, her and longing, her emotional pain , in healing others and at the same time feel closer to Jamie and that life, even if only in her mind. They didn't say how long it had been since Frank had died, but I wonder why she didn't at least try to find out if Jamie lived or died at Culloden. Once Frank died, she'd kept her word and I feel like she could do as she pleased at that point. The fact that she hadn't even told Brianna of Jamie once Frank died is...interesting...

This episode left so many questions about all that time that’s passed, right? When did Claire become a surgeon? Did she fall back in love with Frank? When did Frank die? Why did she keep her promise to never look for Jamie? why did she keep her promise to Frank to not tell Bree about Jamie? 
 

Claire promised Jamie in episode 206 that she would return to her own time if Culloden happened. 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Cdh20

[SassAndSnacks]

People!!!  Of all freaking days!  OF ALL OF THE DAYS!  I had to leave the sanctuary of my home office and actually go to a real office and interact with people and then I had to shuttle children and then I had to sit in a night-time Teams session for three hours (would rather watch BJR draw a portrait of me, that's how freaking painful it was) and then my computer decided to update for 45 minutes.  MISSING OUT ON THIS DISCUSSION because of normal adult things and hating how real life interrupts my Outlander obsession.

The horror of it all.  

But I'm here now.  Let me read and digest the glorious things you've likely said about this incredible episode.

[SassAndSnacks]

19 hours ago, gingerella said:

The thing that threw me a bit in this and really the entire episode, was Brianna's accent and mannerisms.

Same.  I won't say anything about the actress.  Ok, I will.  The others are so good that they highlight shortcomings in those that aren't. 

19 hours ago, gingerella said:

It was as if step by step, Culloden's Clan Fraser memorial stone, a decaying Lallybroch, the dragonfly in amber - all the things that she knew had been but were no more - they all pointed to the cosmos telling her that Jamie had died at Culloden and everything she had loved went downhill from there

Seeing Lallybroch was my undoing.  The joy of that house and the pride the family took in it.  The love that was shared there. My mind was racing - it had to have fallen out of the family, what happened to the Frasers/Murrays, did the redcoats come after them, how long has it been like this, and so on.  

19 hours ago, gingerella said:

As she turns to the Stones and they are aglow, when they pan back to Claire and her face is bathed in a golden light, to me that again was a mirror scene to The Wedding, when Jamie describes seeing her on their wedding day and say's 'it was as if the clouds parted and the sun suddenly came out', and there we are, circling neatly right back to the day these two crazy kids got hitched and took a blood oath. Nice, satisfying story telling, that!

Interestingly, I actually don't like this part that much.  Though beautifully shot, it borders on cheese for me.  But I do really like your take on it, and I think I need to go back and rewatch that with Jamie's wedding day comment in mind.  I do think the symbolism of it is powerful.  Her world was dark when she thought he was gone, but now there is hope, possibility, he lived, and there is light again.  

19 hours ago, gingerella said:

Fergus being sent back to Lallybroch with the deed to the house in wee Jamie's name, and both Jamie and Claire calling him their son, Hey, I'm not crying, you're crying! That kid is such a wonderful actor.

This broke me.  Sobs. "I love you like a son." "Like OUR son."  That sweet, brave, wonderful child.

18 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Then they started with a bunch of characters we've never met—not in a form we would recognize. AND we're back in Inverness!

I loved this.  Just when you think you know where they are going with the story, WHAM.  I really appreciate how it pans around and you see all of these strangers, and then wait, was that...no...can't be...was that Claire?!

18 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I liked:

Yes to all of these.

18 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Jamie apparently had put a lot of thought into his likely death. 1) He'd drawn up a document giving Lallybroch to Jenny and Ian's 1st born son, Jamie Murray. AND he dated it a year previous—before BPC's letter branded him a traitor. (Now I forget what happened to the document I thought he'd signed giving his Fraser grandfather that property. Was that when Claire faked her “vision”?) 2) Plus—from how Claire reflected Frank to him—he believed in his heart that she would be safe and well cared for if he sent her back to Frank. 3) That he'd included saving Fergus in his plans and charged him with not only delivering the deed, but being a witness to the history that was unfolding. 4) That he fulfilled Colum's belief in why he would be a good guardian for Hamish and sent his clan off to safety before the battle started (the Lallybroch Frasers; as Rupert was the only Mackenzie living who followed Dougal into the rebellion). 5) And that he was observant enough to know that she was pregnant—using a more scientific basis than I did—being the timing of her periods (courses). (I based mine on one scene of Claire cradling her belly!) Always one to impress, that JAMMFraser!

If you didn't love Jamie Fraser before...  It really highlights his intelligence and foresight.  He knew what he was doing was dangerous and if his Paris plan didn't work out, it would be traitorous.  The deed of sassine was actually his last resort, and it broke my heart.  It was so hard watching him put those final motions into place - the deed, Fergus, telling Murtaugh to lead the men away from the battle, taking Claire to the stones.  He had such purpose, he knew exactly what needed to happen, and Claire stumbled along confused and in denial.  I hurt for both of them and the way they had to process what was happening.  

When Claire is telling him that he is her home, and he says "This home is lost."  Have I ever felt more empathetically bereft for someone than in that moment?

18 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Roger W remembered Frank Randal as being very kind!!!?? Hummm. I don't remember seeing that in their interactions.

THANK YOU! Um, Rog...he trashed your father's shed in anger...just sayin'.  

6 hours ago, gingerella said:

I have to believe that Colum would have been very okay with Jamie killing Dougal under the circumstances, and might even have been relieved the same way Murtagh was!

I agree.  Colum recognized that Jamie would do what needed to be done.  There would have been some comfort in knowing that Dougal wouldn't have been there to screw things up for the Clan.  Not that it mattered anyway because Culloden.

 

3 hours ago, Anothermi said:

I wasn't implying that they spoke of Frank together, but that Jamie saw how much Claire didn't want to do anything that might harm Frank or prevent him being part of her world. That's why I used the phrase "reflected to him". Claire may have just been protecting her path to Jamie, but it could be taken as enough for Jamie to have confidence in Frank. Enough confidence to entrust Claire to him again—and possibly for the rest of her life.  On reviewing that scene I noticed  Jamie asks her to speak to Frank:

Tell him what you will about me... About us.  It's likely he'll no want to hear, but if he does... Tell him I'm grateful. And tell him I trust him, and tell him I hate him to the very marrow of his bones.

Jamie saw Claire weeping over Frank at Leoch.  He knew she loved him.  I think he realized that she loved him more, obviously she chose him over Frank.  He's secure enough to know that Frank wasn't a bad guy and that he offers Claire and his child a safe haven away from what he feels is certain death for him.  

I also love that he astute enough to know that Frank wouldn't to hear about it, because he knows what he and Claire have and that Frank will surely sense that too.  And of course, Jamie would hate him.  How awful to think that someone else is going to live the life that you want for yourself with the people you love more than anything.  

2 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

my first wave of tears comes at the realization that Claire has been gone for 20 years, so I am on about round 3 by the time she says goodbye to the Fraser stone at Culloden.

Oh my goodness, yes.  20 YEARS!!  To be away from that man, part of herself, for 20 years!

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

She can drown herself and her sorrow, her and longing, her emotional pain , in healing others and at the same time feel closer to Jamie and that life, even if only in her mind.

Agree with this completely.  You can tell in the 1968 scenes, she is more subdued, she's still holding on.  This is the Claire we saw with Frank in episode 1 of this season.  This isn't the Claire that feels alive as she did with Jamie.  She would naturally try to find something that makes her feel useful, needed, important, and more like how she felt at her happiest.  

[gingerella]

6 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

 

20 hours ago, gingerella said:

As she turns to the Stones and they are aglow, when they pan back to Claire and her face is bathed in a golden light, to me that again was a mirror scene to The Wedding, when Jamie describes seeing her on their wedding day and say's 'it was as if the clouds parted and the sun suddenly came out', and there we are, circling neatly right back to the day these two crazy kids got hitched and took a blood oath. Nice, satisfying story telling, that!

Interestingly, I actually don't like this part that much.  Though beautifully shot, it borders on cheese for me.  But I do really like your take on it, and I think I need to go back and rewatch that with Jamie's wedding day comment in mind.  I do think the symbolism of it is powerful.  Her world was dark when she thought he was gone, but now there is hope, possibility, he lived, and there is light again.  

Rewatch it again and tell me what you think. To me, it's a reverse mirror of The Wedding scene. In The Wedding, Jaime tells Claire that when he stepped outside of the church and saw Claire in her wedding dress, it was as if the sun came out on a cloudy day, and we see Claire literally glowing. Then in this episode, Claire realizes that Jamie didn't die at Culloden and there is a chance, a reason for her to come out of her 20 years of living under a cloud, and suddenly she looks at the Stones, her portal back to Jamie, and she is bathed in a similar light to her wedding day. That's how I saw it. But maybe I'm a nut, that's okay too!

9 minutes ago, SassAndSnacks said:

Jamie saw Claire weeping over Frank at Leoch.  He knew she loved him.  I think he realized that she loved him more, obviously she chose him over Frank.  He's secure enough to know that Frank wasn't a bad guy and that he offers Claire and his child a safe haven away from what he feels is certain death for him.  

Yes, I remember now that the first night at Leoch, when Claire was tending to Jamie's wounds, didn't she start crying and he asked if she missed her husband and she said yes? At that point IIRC, she'd made it like he was dead, but still, Jamie was already falling for her, but you could see him stop himself from making a move because she wasn't ready for someone else yet.

Damn this show, I could prattle on for hours about it...

[Cdh20]

One thing I liked was going back & forth in time throughout the episode.

[Anothermi]

17 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

One thing I liked was going back & forth in time throughout the episode.

Yes! And the way a scene in one era related to the next scene in the other era. (e.g. Dougal to Geillis 1968)

Makes me think of a patchwork quilt where the story of each piece relates in some fashion to the pieces around it—not just aesthetically but by what they represent. 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Anothermi
grammar

[SassAndSnacks]

14 hours ago, gingerella said:

Rewatch it again and tell me what you think.

For you and your thought-provoking analyses, I will.  You've changed my mind before.

13 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

One thing I liked was going back & forth in time throughout the episode.

 

13 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Makes me think of a patchwork quilt where the story of each piece relates in some fashion to the pieces around it—not just aesthetically but by what they represent. 

Yes!  I think that was really smart.  The Culloden scenes were so intense, and it was necessary to break those up a bit with the 1960's scenes.  I like your patchwork quilt analogy, and as I was watching, I felt like it was a puzzle that we were placing together, one piece from this time and then one piece from the other time, to create a fuller picture.

[mythoughtis]

On 3/3/2020 at 8:25 PM, Hanahope said:

Yes, I got that.  But he was given to another MacKenzie family, and I wondered what happened to Hammish’s descendants and why Roger was shown as descended directly from Colum.  

He’s never been shown as being a direct descendent of Colum.  He thought he was a direct descendent of William ( presumably Willie? ) Claire is the one that tells him he’s a descendent of Dougal. Roger then comments about Dougal being the war chief. He does not comment that Jamie killed him.  Which presumably he would also know if Rupert had told anyone. 
 

Jamie probably avoided being executed because the battle took less than an hour( I think Frank mentioned that in their initial walk through of the memorial).  He probably didn’t make it back from the stones  in time to battle - but then they did find the dragonfly on the  battlefield.  So maybe he just escaped after 

my opinion on why Claire went through the stones is that she had promised Jamie to do so if he ever asked.  That promise was in return for his not killing BJR.  She knew how hard not killing BJR was for him and she felt she had to keep her word.  She does indeed know how the Highlander’s who participated in the uprising fared afterwards.  She knows she can’t go to Jenny and Ian because she will be hunted  and Jenny and Ian  will be punished for helping her.  The only real survivors escaped to America 

I was proven wrong about Geillis( Gillian).  She indeed did go through the stones on purpose. Not sure how she managed to control when/ where she went.  She was quite the psychopath though.  

Edited August 20, 2022 by mythoughtis

[Noneofyourbusiness]

13 hours ago, mythoughtis said:

I was proven wrong about Geillis( Gillian).  She indeed did go through the stones on purpose. Not sure how she managed to control when/ where she went. 

I think it was the blood sacrifice that gave her more control.