S06.E10: The Winds of Winter

[bluvelvet]

I don't know if it was right for Ned to wait until Jon swore in NW vows before he told him the truth, isn't that in some ways taking away his choice? Waiting until he took an oath that states no titles/land/family and then say .."oh btw..you're possibly entitled to.."

It's funny, when Dany gets to Westeros she is going to find a city that's partially in ashes.

I still haven't figured out my take on Jaime's look to Cersei at the end, he looked gravely concerned but possibly horrified? He must realize that Cersei is the one who blew up the Sept.

[DarkRaichu]

8 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

a member of the Night's Watch renounces all titles, lands, and offspring as part of his oath. Once he has taken this oath Jon wouldn't be able to make a claim for the throne, thus making him safer from retribution is his Targaryean heritage is discovered..

The oath was only binding until his death.  He died once so he was free from the oath.

In any case, who would take retribution now?  The Baratheon line was no more, the Lannisters had Dany, Tyrells, and Sand Snakes alliance to worry about, and whoever left at the north would never hurt a Stark.  

Once Dany takes over KL, more likely she would be glad that she still has a living relative and let Jon rule the North as vassal.

Edited July 1, 2016 by DarkRaichu

[dramachick]

I see a lot of people talking about the revelation of the truth about Jon as if it's gonna be on Westeros-RavenTwitter. Bran is the only person who knows, and he may decide to keep Jon's parentage to himself if future events determine that to be the better choice, especially since Jon doesn't want the Iron Throne. But if Bran does tell him, I think it will be done in private with no public proclamation or fanfare. That's the Stark way.

It wouldn't be surprising to me if this was one of those secrets known only to the audience and that any additional special quality that Jon might have is attributed solely to his Stark heritage and magic, which could very well be true, actually. He's been raised from the dead supposedly by the Red God to fulfill some destiny that probably has to do with the white walkers, and the Starks have been associated with stories about magic for thousands of years. Does being a Targaryan really add anything to that? I mean, sometimes they're fire proof and ride dragons, but that hasn't been enough to save them from war and murder.

Jon's already a special person, so saith Lady Lyanna Mormount.

[Lady S.]

2 hours ago, bluvelvet said:

I still haven't figured out my take on Jaime's look to Cersei at the end, he looked gravely concerned but possibly horrified? He must realize that Cersei is the one who blew up the Sept.

And that Tommen must be dead. He was just bragging to Edmure about Cersei's fierce love for their children, about how she would burn cities to the ground to protect them. Instead, now she's burned part of the city to the ground for her own sake, and it led to their baby boy's death. Jaime never got the chance to be more than an uncle to his kids, so they were really more Cersei's than his, but if the Mama lioness thing was a quality he loved about her, this has got to change things, right?

1 hour ago, dramachick said:

It wouldn't be surprising to me if this was one of those secrets known only to the audience and that any additional special quality that Jon might have is attributed solely to his Stark heritage and magic, which could very well be true, actually. He's been raised from the dead supposedly by the Red God to fulfill some destiny that probably has to do with the white walkers, and the Starks have been associated with stories about magic for thousands of years. Does being a Targaryan really add anything to that? I mean, sometimes they're fire proof and ride dragons, but that hasn't been enough to save them from war and murder.

Well, dragons could prove useful in fighting the White Walkers, and Dany has two who remain riderless. I think that's where Jon's heritage would be more important to the plot, before any claims to the Iron Throne. Hell, Cersei could well destroy the whole city and the throne with it before her short reign is over.

[Hecate7]

3 hours ago, Lady S. said:

And that Tommen must be dead. He was just bragging to Edmure about Cersei's fierce love for their children, about how she would burn cities to the ground to protect them. Instead, now she's burned part of the city to the ground for her own sake, and it led to their baby boy's death. Jaime never got the chance to be more than an uncle to his kids, so they were really more Cersei's than his, but if the Mama lioness thing was a quality he loved about her, this has got to change things, right?

Hell of a way to find out your son is dead--come home and find his mother crowning herself king. Jaime has no way of knowing yet exactly how Tommen died, so for all he knows Tommen was in the Sept when it blew up. He won't know it was a suicide until someone tells him--most people either don't know, or wouldn't have the nerve.

[Lady S.]

I had to dig around youtube to find this, but knew we'd actually seen a white raven before. In 2.01 it signaled the end of summer and the start of autumn, now, 59 episodes later, autumn has ended and winter has finally started.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Lady S.

[riley702]

19 hours ago, GrailKing said:

She looks like a Romulan Queen, ready to take a Bird of Prey to hunt Captain Kirk esp. with the crown removed.

I disagree. She was going for a resemblance to Daddy Tywin, and smacked it out of the ballpark. 

[revbfc]

4 hours ago, riley702 said:

I disagree. She was going for a resemblance to Daddy Tywin, and smacked it out of the ballpark. 

I have to back up GRAILKING since I was thinking Vulcan or Romulan, too.

Edited July 1, 2016 by revbfc

[MV713]

10 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Well, dragons could prove useful in fighting the White Walkers, and Dany has two who remain riderless. I think that's where Jon's heritage would be more important to the plot, before any claims to the Iron Throne. Hell, Cersei could well destroy the whole city and the throne with it before her short reign is over.

Oh just had vision of Jon and Bran riding the other two...

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

Hell of a way to find out your son is dead--come home and find his mother crowning herself king. Jaime has no way of knowing yet exactly how Tommen died, so for all he knows Tommen was in the Sept when it blew up. He won't know it was a suicide until someone tells him--most people either don't know, or wouldn't have the nerve.

I wasn't under the impression Jamie hadn't spoken to anyone about what he missed.  Wouldn't that be the normal thing to do, to ask someone what happened on your way into town, if not into the castle?  

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, riley702 said:

I disagree. She was going for a resemblance to Daddy Tywin, and smacked it out of the ballpark. 

Maybe, but she came out more Romulan.

Both are ruthless, Romulans usually aren't BScrazy

[Mabinogia]

It's the hair that gives her the Romulan edge. I can't get over how bad her hair is.

[revbfc]

1 minute ago, Mabinogia said:

It's the hair that gives her the Romulan edge. I can't get over how bad her hair is.

The Faith Militant gave her that Summer cut knowing full well that Winter was coming.  Those folks were mean.

[FormerMod-a1]

I just want to know why my hair has grown more in a week than her hair has since last season.  I know it hasn't been that long in show time, but shurely it's been more than a week.

[Hecate7]

4 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I wasn't under the impression Jamie hadn't spoken to anyone about what he missed.  Wouldn't that be the normal thing to do, to ask someone what happened on your way into town, if not into the castle?  

I wasn't under the impression he spoke to anyone, or took time to do so.

He's in a hurry to get to Cersei, and seeing the blasted Sept would make him hurry all the faster. Maybe he did overhear wailing in the streets, or see a processional of some kind that let him know Tommen was dead, but I doubt it. We got that little shot of him and Bron surveying the damage, and no words, no conversation, no asking passers by what happened. He might have had the quick thoughts: "someone used the wildfire. Who did I mention it to? Who would know it was there?" At this point Cersei might even be able to blame it all on Tyrion.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Hecate7

[paigow]

7 hours ago, riley702 said:

I disagree. She was going for a resemblance to Daddy Tywin, and smacked it out of the ballpark. 

Not Daddy. This is the dude she is copying

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/520869513127157144/?from_navigate=true

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

I wasn't under the impression he spoke to anyone, or took time to do so.

He's in a hurry to get to Cersei, and seeing the blasted Sept would make him hurry all the faster. Maybe he did overhear wailing in the streets, or see a processional of some kind that let him know Tommen was dead, but I doubt it. We got that little shot of him and Bron surveying the damage, and no words, no conversation, no asking passers by what happened. He might have had the quick thoughts: "someone used the wildfire. Who did I mention it to? Who would know it was there?" At this point Cersei might even be able to blame it all on Tyrion.

Possibly.  I would ask someone, in their shoes. Why rush to Cersei in the castle if the people in the streets could all tell you she was in the sept when it blew?  

I doubt it matters.  I don't think Jamie is going to spend much time next season thinking Tommen died any way but how he did.  

[ParadoxLost]

16 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Well, dragons could prove useful in fighting the White Walkers, and Dany has two who remain riderless. I think that's where Jon's heritage would be more important to the plot, before any claims to the Iron Throne. Hell, Cersei could well destroy the whole city and the throne with it before her short reign is over.

I really think that they will reveal that Jon is a Targ by having the dragons try to incinerate him and fail either while at war with Dany or allied and in a scenario where he is a sacrifice to defeat the Night King.

I think its hokey but given the number of times they repeat the Moments of Epic with Dany and fire and dragons, I'm not sure they can resist.  Their choices to reveal Jon's origin are someone believes Bran's vision vs Sam finds crumbly document in Citadel vs. someone finds and believes the midwife vs. Jon walks out of fire naked to stunned onlookers.  Its this show, I think the last is most likely.

[Popples]

8 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Jon walks out of fire naked to stunned onlookers.

Yes, please!

[MissLucas]

I'm hoping the reveal will be when Dany tries to sic Drogon on Ghost (just to spite Jon and the audience) and instead Drogon is going full Shrek-dragon on donkey and he and Ghost are hitting it off big time and make lovely Direwolf-Dragon babies (I know Drogon is male but like Yara he might be up for anything). But yeah, I guess naked Jon is more likely.

Edited July 1, 2016 by MissLucas

[Lady S.]

7 hours ago, MV713 said:

Oh just had vision of Jon and Bran riding the other two...

My fantasy involves Jon on one and Bran warging the other while Tyrion is the rider, coming full circle from Tyrion enabling Bran to ride a horse in s1.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Lady S.

[revbfc]

The next ten months are going to be excruciating.  Good thing I've got shit to do between now and then.

[BitterApple]

3 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

Jon walks out of fire naked to stunned onlookers. 

I want full frontal, dammit. And a lingering shot.

Edited July 2, 2016 by BitterApple

[Katalina]

Quote

I know I am probably about 3 times older than Lady Mormont but I want to apprentice under her so she can show me how to be a boss

I want a T-shirt with her pic on it—just to remind me to be like her now and then.

Quote

No hot Tormund-and-Brienne action? Dammit, show!

 

Here's hoping!

Quote

 In short, Olenna can make anything better!

Totally agree. She's a master plotter so I think we'll see her at her best in the Dany/Tyrion/Varys/Yara mix that's going to land on Cersei. Good times comin'.

I think the Hound may no longer be on Arya's list—A Man smacked her a couple of times for lying when she said she hated the Hound. Her feelings may well have changed towards him. I hope so—what a fighting team they'd make.

As for the two still-riderless dragons—I'd really like to see Tyrion riding one of them.

[AliShibaz]

I looked and I looked but I could not find the place in this forum where Blue Velvet said that John surely must have figured out that Cersei was the one who caused the big building (whatever it is called) to blow up. But I'm not so sure about this.

Causing that building (could it be called the Sept of Baylor?) to explode could easily have been a very complex operation and I strongly doubt that anyone could be certain as to who was to blame for that.  Granted that it may not be very likely, but it could always have been an accident of some kind. Couldn't it?

OMG! Oh no! Oh no!

I just now saw that post. It's at the top of this page. I feel so dumb! How dumb does someone have to be in order to miss a post that is at the top of the very same page?  Please forgive me. I didn't drink my carrot juice this morning.

[Hecate7]

12 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Possibly.  I would ask someone, in their shoes. Why rush to Cersei in the castle if the people in the streets could all tell you she was in the sept when it blew?  

I doubt it matters.  I don't think Jamie is going to spend much time next season thinking Tommen died any way but how he did.  

So would I, but I'm not Jaime. I'm not on a horse, I'm not Cersei's not-so-secret lover, I'm not the Kingslayer. Jaime was trying to get home to Cersei asap. If she's dead, he doesn't want to hear it from some guy on the street. He wants to see for himself, and whoever broke that news to him had better be speaking in hushed, reverent tones and possibly weeping with grief themselves. Jaime is also probably not in the habit of speaking to people on the street because of the class barrier.

Moreover, someone on the street might only know that the Sept blew up, not who was inside. Nobody made it back out--that's what they know in the street. They probably know the Sparrows and the Tyrells were there because they may have seen them go in, but if they didn't see, then they won't know even that.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Hecate7
didn't like wording I used.

[AliShibaz]

1 hour ago, Hecate7 said:

So would I, but I'm not Jaime. I'm not on a horse, I'm not Cersei's not-so-secret lover, I'm not the Kingslayer. Jaime was trying to get home to Cersei asap. If she's dead, he doesn't want to hear it from some guy on the street. He wants to see for himself, and whoever broke that news to him had better be speaking in hushed, reverent tones and possibly weeping with grief themselves. Jaime is also probably not in the habit of speaking to people on the street because of the class barrier.

Moreover, someone on the street might only know that the Sept blew up, not who was inside. Nobody made it back out--that's what they know in the street. They probably know the Sparrows and the Tyrells were there because they may have seen them go in, but if they didn't see, then they won't know even that.

There is much truth in what you say. Jamie is very known for many things. But, being clever, ain't one of them. He is not generally regarded as a big intellect. In fact, he is kind of a big dummy. Don't you think? I feel sorry for Jamie. His mental abilities are truly quite limited.

1 hour ago, Hecate7 said:

So would I, but I'm not Jaime. I'm not on a horse, I'm not Cersei's not-so-secret lover, I'm not the Kingslayer. Jaime was trying to get home to Cersei asap. If she's dead, he doesn't want to hear it from some guy on the street. He wants to see for himself, and whoever broke that news to him had better be speaking in hushed, reverent tones and possibly weeping with grief themselves. Jaime is also probably not in the habit of speaking to people on the street because of the class barrier.

Moreover, someone on the street might only know that the Sept blew up, not who was inside. Nobody made it back out--that's what they know in the street. They probably know the Sparrows and the Tyrells were there because they may have seen them go in, but if they didn't see, then they won't know even that.

After thinking this over a bit, I gotta say that IMO, you could be an excellent king slayer if you wanted to be. After all, it doesn't take very much to be a king slayer. Brains are not really the primary attribute.

But, tell me, what do you think? Do you believe that you are cut out to be a well regarded king slayer?

[Hecate7]

13 minutes ago, AliShibaz said:

There is much truth in what you say. Jamie is very known for many things. But, being clever, ain't one of them. He is not generally regarded as a big intellect. In fact, he is kind of a big dummy. Don't you think? I feel sorry for Jamie. His mental abilities are truly quite limited.

That's really not at all connected in any way to what I posted. I don't think he's dumb simply because he'd rather go look in the Red Keep for Cersei than poll random strangers on the street about her whereabouts and get several conflicting distorted versions and a few shoulder shrugs first. Frankly in his shoes I wouldn't conduct a poll first--I'd just rush to the castle, where I could hear the real story firsthand.

More importantly, the last time someone even implied to Jaime that Cersei had been harmed--raped, killed, traumatized...the mere pause in Roose Bolton's sentence made Jaime collapse and almost faint. If I were Jaime I would not be at all interested in getting the bad news out there on the street where I might fall off my horse into a pile of dung, or lose it and start weeping uncontrollably in front of a pack of urchins. I'd be in a very big hurry to 1) see Cersei's face if it still exists, and 2) get where not even Bron could see me, if it turns out Cersei no longer exists. Screw talking to strangers about something so important and personal. Especially strangers who only a few months ago were flinging garbage at Cersei's naked hide and calling her names. Jaime's not stupid. He actually has very good reasons for not wanting to engage the street people of King's Landing in any kind of conversation.

Edited July 2, 2016 by Hecate7

[Boudicea]

On 6/29/2016 at 10:17 PM, slf said:

Joffrey killed them partially out of anger and spite and partially out of fear of them being taken seriously and legitimized (since the only other living Baratheons were considered enemies of the crown then one of Robert's bastards would have to be legitimized to keep his line going). Just as Ramsay was legitimized by Tommen. (Which is why bastards are feared in the first place.)

Jon is also descended from the Mad King as well. His father did not receive the support of the common people and in fact it's been said for more than twenty years that he abducted Lyanna Stark. As to that, Lyanna was 'chosen' over Elia Martell, the trueborn princess of Dorne, so I don't think Jon can count on support from the Dornish. He won't get support from the Reach, either, since they were Targ loyalists, which is a big deal; they claim the largest army and navy and control food supply to a significant percentage of the Seven Kingdoms (not to mention the Reach has the largest population of any Kingdom so if they're against you that's a decent chunk of Westerosis who don't want you to be King). He's not getting support from the Iron Islands or the Westerlands. And the Crownlands won't support him either. I'm guessing the Stormlands (which can't have many soldiers left at this point anyway) likely fold the second they see Dany's forces and dragons. Jon'll have the North, maybe the Riverlands, and the Vale. The North and the Riverlands have both been brutalized by warfare and likely don't have the food stores they're going to need for the coming winter. Can they afford to back Jon against Dany? Especially when there's really no way to confirm that Jon is a Targaryen- and isn't a bastard? Even in their society a trueborn daughter trumps an illegitimate son. (Had Myrcella lived, and so had all of Robert's bastards, she would have inherited the crown after Tommen's death.)

Last but not least, Jon is claiming King of the North. As in, the North is its own independent kingdom. To take the Iron Throne he'd have to bring the North back into the Seven Kingdoms, which the Northmen do not want. They were quick to declare succession and to make clear they resented having to bend the knee to Southroners with different Gods when they declared Robb King back in season one. So Jon's going to force the North back in just so he can claim the Iron Throne, but to do that he'd have to publicly acknowledge he's only a Stark on the female line (which is a weak claim). Bearing in mind that the Northmen fought to free Lyanna Stark from Rhaegar Targaryen and fought to avenge Rickard and Brandon Stark's deaths at the hands of the Mad King.

Dany is indisputably a Targaryen, and a legitimate one at that. She has a history of "freeing" slaves and other oppressed peoples. She's been able to unite warring cultures behind her. She's fulfilled at least one prophecy and is likely fulfilling another. She has three dragons, the Dothraki, the Unsullied, the Dornish, the Ironborn, and the Reach with her. At some point the WW are going to cross the wall and when that happens I doubt anyone's going to care about Rhaegar Targaryen's likely illegitimate son. Then it'll be about survival and three fire-breathing dragons will likely prove useful against Ice Zombies. People will be clamoring for Dany to be their Queen.

At the moment it actually just seems a bit too easy for Dany to take over Westeros. She has over a hundred thousand soldiers, hundreds of ships and alliances within Westeros. Cersei is not going to be a match for her. 

My guess is that Dany will be in opposition against the Starks at some point. When she gave her breaking the wheel speach the Starks were mentioned. When Tyrion made his silly joke about a Lannister, Martell and a Stark, Missandei asked him why he was making jokes about their enemies. The Starks were a big part part of Robert's rebellion, and they have just declared independence once again. The Knights of the Vale were also cheering and calling Jon the King in the North, so the Vale could be a part of the North now.

It makes for a far more interesting nuanced type of storytelling to pit Dany against the Starks, then for her to just destroy Cersei.

At the moment Dany has all of the advantages in her corner, but I suspect it will not be as easy as it seems to be at the moment. Dany is still a foreign invader and she is bringing in thousands of Dothraki, they are know rapers and pillagers. She might control them better than the previous Khals but it is almost impossible to control thousands of people perfectly.  Dany has also aligned herself with Dorne and with the Iron Islands, those houses are not exactly the most popular within Westeros. 

Dany has been freeing slaves, but the people within Westeros are not slaves, they also gain something from their overlords at times. For example the Starks are known to feed their peasants in the Winter. Dany obviously has dragons, but how many people is she going burn or how many people will she be prepared to burn? Dany has good intentions, but she could easily look like a tyrant to the population within Westeros.

And then there is always logistics to think about, Westeros has been ravished with the war of the five King, how is Dany going feed thousands of soldiers? The weather is also a major factor to consider, the Dothraki comes from a desert-like area, all of these people have never known winter or true cold. If the anyone tries to invade the North they will die, it is very difficult to survive in the North in the middle of winter. 

Thousands of soldiers running around in the dead of winter with the Knights King animating corpses also seems like a recipe for disaster. 

We also don't know what Bran's powers exactly entails, if he is able to warg into a dragon then things could be very interesting. 

[Knuckles]

1 hour ago, Boudicea said:

At the moment Dany has all of the advantages in her corner, but I suspect it will not be as easy as it seems to be at the moment.

Love your post. Olenna is onboard for revenge...the food that Highgarden has been sending to KL is done. So Cersei faces terrified and possibly starving small folk in the city, though what is left of the nobility will not have easy access to food either. Cersei is big on revenge, not one for forward planning.

The Dothraki are fearsome, but not really disciplined, and like the Iron Islanders, are rapists and pillagers. It's not clear what kind of army Dorne will bring to the party...hopefully with more skills than the Sand Snakes. And the weather is seriously against them...surprising that Tyrion never mentioned that...or any discussion of how to feed and supply this invading army. All of Danaery's fine talk of freeing the people will be of scant comfort to the people of Westeros who, having endured years of war, and now Cersei are about to be overrun by a scavenging army while a thousand-year winter arrives.

What's left of the Tyrell army and the Lannister forces are still there...I'm guessing that Randyll Tarly, mentioned by Stannis himself as the best general in Westeros will rouse himself and take charge of the Tyrell forces...and that a disillusioned Jaime joins him with the Lannister army to fight the invaders.

And in Dorne, are we supposed to believe that a mistress of Oberyn, having murdered Prince Doran, will now be able to rouse the noble houses and knights to fight on her command? In the acutely class conscious world of Westeros, I would expect some resistance to that. It's true that Dorne has food, so maybe Deanery's is heading there first, not to KL. From this perspective, it looks as if Deanery's is bringing more death and misery to Westeros, not liberation.

[announcergirl]

40 minutes ago, Knuckles said:

Love your post. Olenna is onboard for revenge...the food that Highgarden has been sending to KL is done. So Cersei faces terrified and possibly starving small folk in the city, though what is left of the nobility will not have easy access to food either. Cersei is big on revenge, not one for forward planning.

The Dothraki are fearsome, but not really disciplined, and like the Iron Islanders, are rapists and pillagers. It's not clear what kind of army Dorne will bring to the party...hopefully with more skills than the Sand Snakes. And the weather is seriously against them...surprising that Tyrion never mentioned that...or any discussion of how to feed and supply this invading army. All of Danaery's fine talk of freeing the people will be of scant comfort to the people of Westeros who, having endured years of war, and now Cersei are about to be overrun by a scavenging army while a thousand-year winter arrives.

What's left of the Tyrell army and the Lannister forces are still there...I'm guessing that Randyll Tarly, mentioned by Stannis himself as the best general in Westeros will rouse himself and take charge of the Tyrell forces...and that a disillusioned Jaime joins him with the Lannister army to fight the invaders.

And in Dorne, are we supposed to believe that a mistress of Oberyn, having murdered Prince Doran, will now be able to rouse the noble houses and knights to fight on her command? In the acutely class conscious world of Westeros, I would expect some resistance to that. It's true that Dorne has food, so maybe Deanery's is heading there first, not to KL. From this perspective, it looks as if Deanery's is bringing more death and misery to Westeros, not liberation.

I know. That was just stupid. So the mistress has power. Cmon!!!

How is she even still there or even alive. They watched you kill the ruler. Treason. 

[Guest]

I must've missed the scenes where Jamie was shown to be dumb or prone to fainting, crying or falling off his horse in grief.  I don't think we even saw him shed a tear for Joffrey or Myrcella, did we?  I honestly don't recall the scene with Roose.  To me, he seems pragmatic and tough, probably to a fault, considering his treatment of Bran.  Though we've seen him show mercy with Brienne, and of course he truly loves Cersei.  

But like I said, I think it's neither here nor there.  His look at the end was mysterious.  I imagine we're meant to wonder what he's thinking.  It could well be "What did she do to Tommen?"  But would the surviving officials in the red keep crown her acting monarch if she was under suspicion of killing Tommen?   It seems like there'd be some clear rules about that to deter familial regicide.  

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Knuckles said:

the food that Highgarden has been sending to KL is done... or any discussion of how to feed and supply this invading army.

You answered your own question...The Dothraki / Unsullied / Ironborn / Dornish / Tyrell army head count is less than does not exceed that of King's Landing population. So food is not an issue. The Tyrells can afford to make a few thousand winterized cloaks for everyone. Many Unsullied will remain in the South with Varys as police.

Edited July 2, 2016 by paigow
Stannis less than rule

[Mabinogia]

If I were Jamie, just got back to KL, found the Sept in ashes, and his sister being crowned, I doubt his first thought would be that she killed Tommen but that OMG Tommen was killed in the Sept. Cersei must be devastated...oh, wait, she's getting crowned...um, but she still must be heartbroken and this has to be a tough moment for her, getting what she finally wanted but at the cost of her son, I must get to her and comfort her and...wait, she doesn't look too choked up about it. What the hell happened while I was gone? So I think his look at the end was utter confusion really.

The interesting thing is what lie Cersei is going to tell him to make it not her fault that Tommen died, and whether he's still so obessed with her that he believes her. Hey, maybe, for old times sake he can fuck her over his ashes like he fucked her against their other sons dead body.

[Knuckles]

3 hours ago, paigow said:

The Tyrells can afford to make a few thousand winterized cloaks for everyone. 

I think Olenna would have no interest in supporting the invading army beyond smashing Cersei and the Lannister army. Her interest is, as she stated, is simply revenge.

She despises Dorne, her alliance with Ellaria, a low-born mistress/killer, is one of temporary convenience. And a long-term alliance with the loathed Iron Islands...again, short-term at best. On the show, they have been careful to describe Highgarden as having no legitimate surviving heirs. And in the true spirit of Westerosi Great Houses...I doubt she gives a damn who lives or dies as long as she sees the utter destruction of the Lannisters...in KL and I assume at Casterly Rock. 

And winter is moving south...how the Iron islanders will fare is open to question..the Dothraki have never seen snow...not have the Unsullied. It ain't a sure win for Danaerys, though she seems to have the numbers.

[Audreythe2nd]

The director said something about trying multiple "looks" between Jaime/Cersei for the last shot and not really knowing which one to use so he took that moment out (or something). And then D&D put that shot back in. I don't think there is anything in Jaime's expression that shows confusion. If anything, it's the most knowing look I've ever seen Jaime give Cersei. It was basically saying, "I know what you did" without a word.

[Hecate7]

3 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I must've missed the scenes where Jamie was shown to be dumb or prone to fainting, crying or falling off his horse in grief.  I don't think we even saw him shed a tear for Joffrey or Myrcella, did we?  I honestly don't recall the scene with Roose.  To me, he seems pragmatic and tough, probably to a fault, considering his treatment of Bran.  Though we've seen him show mercy with Brienne, and of course he truly loves Cersei.  

But like I said, I think it's neither here nor there.  His look at the end was mysterious.  I imagine we're meant to wonder what he's thinking.  It could well be "What did she do to Tommen?"  But would the surviving officials in the red keep crown her acting monarch if she was under suspicion of killing Tommen?   It seems like there'd be some clear rules about that to deter familial regicide.  

So you didn't watch the episode where Roose Bolton made him faint just by hinting that something might have happened to Cersei? Well, I didn't. The common folk are not people Jaime would like to linger among. You heard the way the guy pissing on the wall spoke of Jaime Lannister: "She's used to her brother, and he's just a half inch shy of an inch." He IS pragmatic and he is tough, but I think they didn't show him wandering around asking random people what happened, because that didn't happen--he sprinted to the castle to find out why the Sept was in ruins. He's not going to talk to the common folk--they're not worth his time. They threw dung at his son, they threw garbage at Cersei, they've been screaming "brotherf*er" at her, and he's the brother. It's a waste of time for him to talk to them. Yes, you would, and I would, but that's because we don't live in the castle and we didn't just travel hundreds of miles to be with Cersei.

The only surviving officials are all under Cersei's control. All the other "officials" were at the trial. Between Quyburn and Frankengregor she's seen to that. There isn't even a maester or a septon or septa in King's Landing now to question her actions. There are clear rules, of course. But Cersei just used a bomb to get around them all. That was the point of the bomb. Everyone who went to see Cersei face her trial, anyone who was anyone, is dead. That bunch sitting there watching her be crowned are probably newly appointed to their places by Cersei, yet even they aren't excited to see her crowned--they all probably lost someone in the blast. An even bigger crowd probably showed up for Cersei's trial than were lining the streets for her walk of shame or for Ned Stark's execution, and ALL of those people burned alive or were killed by flying and falling debris. That explosion went for blocks, perhaps even miles. I hope we do get a scene later of Jaime surveying the damage, but when he first saw it, it, and everything else, would take a back seat to finding Cersei and making sure she and Tommen were ok. You don't accept a second-hand account of whether your wife and son are ok.

[Guest]

It must be this scene with Roose and Jaime.

 

I kind of figured Jaime was physically very unwell and that he also collapsed from relief.  Which is only slightly different from fainting in fear, I suppose.    

[Calamity Jane]

Ok, wait, wait, wait a minute - it's taken me all week for this question to pop in my head (re-listening to Book 1 on my 8-hour drive to NorCal triggered it for some reason) -- Didn't Benjen say there's some kind of spell in the Wall that keeps the Dead from getting through/over it?  So.... why all the panic, then?  Nobody else knows that?  Why don't they?  It's been a long time since the last time they were a threat, but wouldn't that crucial little bit of knowledge be something that would be zealously preserved and passed down by the Night's Watch?  Confused.  Is there a big hole in my thinking?  

[Hecate7]

15 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

It must be this scene with Roose and Jaime.

 

I kind of figured Jaime was physically very unwell and that he also collapsed from relief.  Which is only slightly different from fainting in fear, I suppose.    

Yes! He was weakened and vulnerable from his injury, and you can tell his heart is in his throat when he asks after Cersei. He probably DID collapse with relief, you're right. Jaime might not collapse under normal circumstances, but I don't think he'd want to risk looking weak out in public, by asking strangers a question that important him. Instead, he spurs his horse towards the palace and shouts "come on!" to his followers. It makes no sense to picture him slowing down to ask random people questions, after that. If you look at the coronation scene, moreover, it's very likely that the streets are empty, since all of the people who weren't killed in the blast are at Cersei's coronation. 

That blast will have killed a staggering number of people. As many people will have turned out to watch the trial, as turned out to watch the Walk of Shame, only instead of lining the main road to watch her walk past, they'd have crowded around the Sept to get a good view of the trial and Cersei's sentencing and subsequent punishment for regicide, incest, and treason. So there's probably no one on the streets anyway.

Edited July 3, 2016 by Hecate7

[Daisy]

On 7/1/2016 at 5:34 PM, ParadoxLost said:

I really think that they will reveal that Jon is a Targ by having the dragons try to incinerate him and fail either while at war with Dany or allied and in a scenario where he is a sacrifice to defeat the Night King.

I think its hokey but given the number of times they repeat the Moments of Epic with Dany and fire and dragons, I'm not sure they can resist.  Their choices to reveal Jon's origin are someone believes Bran's vision vs Sam finds crumbly document in Citadel vs. someone finds and believes the midwife vs. Jon walks out of fire naked to stunned onlookers.  Its this show, I think the last is most likely.

As amazing as that would be - It's been established that Jon is not impervious to fire. So all that amazing goodness would be... um. burnt to a crisp. (I am in a middle of a GoT re-watch, it's amazing how many things are like OOOOHHHHHH! now). It was the episode when Jeon Mormont walks in and the first wight they've seen comes up (he was kicking Jon's bum). Jon grabs the lantern, yelps and throws it at the wight. An episode later, Jeon goes how is his hand, is it still healing? Jon says yes, he should be ready to go in another day or two. 

This was matched up with Dany handling the hot dragon eggs without any fear, and the Dothraki girl freaking out reaching down and yelping and Dany seeing while her hands were okay, the Dothraki girls had the imprint of the dragon egg shell on them). 

[annsterg]

I'd have to go back and re watch to confirm, but didn't Jaime promise Edmure that if he cooperated, he and his wife and son would be sent to Casterly Rock, where they would be treated well and his son would have the upbringing of a highborn lad?

 

because if so, this is reason 344276543 that Jaime really is a piece of garbage, because he didn't say jack when Walder told him Edmure was back in a cell. 

[Enigma X]

2 hours ago, Daisy said:

As amazing as that would be - It's been established that Jon is not impervious to fire. So all that amazing goodness would be... um. burnt to a crisp. (I am in a middle of a GoT re-watch, it's amazing how many things are like OOOOHHHHHH! now). It was the episode when Jeon Mormont walks in and the first wight they've seen comes up (he was kicking Jon's bum). Jon grabs the lantern, yelps and throws it at the wight. An episode later, Jeon goes how is his hand, is it still healing? Jon says yes, he should be ready to go in another day or two. 

This was matched up with Dany handling the hot dragon eggs without any fear, and the Dothraki girl freaking out reaching down and yelping and Dany seeing while her hands were okay, the Dothraki girls had the imprint of the dragon egg shell on them). 

Jon was burned but not to a crisp. I know...stretching. I still think D&D will do something to explain this away in order to have a fire-retardant Jon reveal.

[izabella]

2 hours ago, Enigma X said:

Jon was burned but not to a crisp. I know...stretching. I still think D&D will do something to explain this away in order to have a fire-retardant Jon reveal.

That would annoy me, because it's a retcon.  You can't make a point of showing us burned hands Jon, and then pretend it never happened and show him as an Unburnt Jon.  It's cheating the audience to do that.  And if they make it so "oh, because he died and was brought back to life, now he's impervious to fire!" it's also cheating.

[Enigma X]

1 minute ago, izabella said:

That would annoy me, because it's a retcon.  You can't make a point of showing us burned hands Jon, and then pretend it never happened and show him as an Unburnt Jon.  It's cheating the audience to do that.  And if they make it so "oh, because he died and was brought back to life, now he's impervious to fire!" it's also cheating.

I think if they do anything, Jon will burn. I still say it will not be to a crisp. His hands were not burned to a crisp. In the end, he will emerge. I would not consider that a retcon.

I don't agree about them making him impervious to fire because he died. It falls inline with the magical story they are telling. I don't think this will be why he won't burn though.

In the end, those who are opposed to any telling of why Jon is impervious to fire may want to prepare themselves, because I don't think that the show will pass up this dramatic "reveal." 

[Mabinogia]

I will laugh if he is impervious to fire because I do think they will mean it as a "dramatic reveal" but it will feel so ridiculously predictable to me at this point. I would find it more dramatic if he doesn't come out of some fire somewhere all dramatically with the sweeping music and the expectation of chills from the audience. Oh, imagine, Jon is engulfed in flames, everyone has already assumed his Targ blood will make him emerge unharmed. We will all be waiting, waiting...waiting...and Jon doesn't come out. (I like Jon and I don't want him to be dead (again) but it would be a shocking twist.

[izabella]

19 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

I think if they do anything, Jon will burn. I still say it will not be to a crisp. His hands were not burned to a crisp. In the end, he will emerge. I would not consider that a retcon.

Dany's hands didn't burn when she handled the eggs; she didn't feel the heat when she walked into the too-hot bath.  So she is totally Unburnt, while Jon is not.  To me, it would be a retcon and bad writing because it's inconsistent within the show universe.  Either you're Unburnt or you're not.  I just wouldn't buy it if they did that with Jon.  If they can't tell the story without cheating, then it's not good story telling, IMO.

Having said that, yes, I think they will go the route of having Jon be magically impervious to fire because of his resurrection, and I think that's cheating, too.  I won't like that either, lol!

[annsterg]

I'd rather just have it that the dragons recognize Jon.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Drogo
Quote formatting

[Audreythe2nd]

I would rather the dragons have nothing at all to do with Jon, actually. Jon's never seen a dragon, probably doesn't even know they exist, never expressed the desire to see a dragon, etc. That the dragons are suddenly like, "Hey! You're Rheagar's son!" with no build up is nonsensical to me. It was difficult enough for Daenerys to wrangle them, and she *birthed* them and is pure Targaryan. As for other dragon riders, the only one I would find acceptable is Bran, since at least it seems that's actually what he's being built up for (what with the warging and the knowing about the white walkers, and the visions of the dragon shadows and the "one day you will fly" stuff).

[Guest]

If anyone with Targaryen blood is impervious to burns I would think that'd be something people would know and something a man of Jon's age would've noticed about himself by now, as well.  

I thought Dany was special.  Her full brother died of burns, didn't he?