S06.E10: The Winds of Winter

[arjumand]

3 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

So Sansa's little smile was a call back to Catelyn's when Robb was declared KITN?  And we've spent pages trying to interpret it? 

 

Also, it's the only thing which is a callback to that coronation, which I'm glad to hear, after reading all the smug "It's exactly like Robb's! That means Jon is gonna die the same way!" proclamations. So, it's as a lot of us thought - proud and slightly worried, because now even more people are gunning for them (coughLittlefingercough) than before.

I disagree that she wanted recognition at the proclamation - if she did, the whole 'Ramsey, I sentence you to die by dog' thing would have taken place in the open air. Or maybe she would have borrowed Longclaw, and inexpertly hacked him to death. No, right now she's happy being the eminence grise - she knows that as long as Jon is in charge, she will never have to do anything she doesn't want to.

I love that little conversation between them after their reunion, going something like:

Sansa: Say you forgive me for being such a bitch to you.

Jon: There's nothing to forg-

Sansa: Forgive me!

Jon: I forgive you.

 

2 hours ago, paigow said:

Nobody in the North knows about Walder yet...Unless Arya wrote her name in blood on the dining room table, nobody can give her credit for the kills. Did Sansa tell Jon that Arya was recently seen alive? Or that's another nugget her trust issues are causing her to withhold? 

Does Sansa know that? There's bits of the series I haven't seen.

You know, I'd love for Arya to have written a big WINTER IS COMING on the wall, using Walder's blood (maybe with a P.S. the pies are people), like the 'Kill the masters' in Mereen.

[stagmania]

10 hours ago, screamin said:

Makes sense to me. Sansa has the legal right to Winterfell, and the title of King in the North is currently by acclamation, not inheritance. If Jon survives the uprising and the winter with his head on, some thought might be given to formalities like a capital and a castle for the king - right now, Jon will be fine in his sister's castle.

I'm glad HBO clarified this, and I agree it makes perfect sense and confirms that Jon did not, in fact, take anything from Sansa. Would have been nice if the show had bothered to present it all clearly. I wonder if they played it all so ambiguous so they could leave themselves some wiggle room on what to do with Sansa next season. 

[paigow]

5 hours ago, arjumand said:

Does Sansa know that? There's bits of the series I haven't seen.

 

Brienne told Sansa that she met Arya and "a man" near the Vale. Pod recognized him and explicitly told her it was "Ser Sandor Clegane - The Hound". However, Brienne neglected to mention that she knew the man's true identity, kicked him off a cliff, left him for dead and failed to gain Arya's trust.

[TxanGoddess]

Quote

 I simply thought she told him he's Rhaegar's son and that Robert would kill him if he found out.

I'm sorry that I forgot to look who said this and name them, but I suspect what was muted out was Lyanna saying, "His name is Targaryen," and not a different first name like it seems people are trying to figure out. 

Edited July 5, 2016 by TxanGoddess

[arjumand]

12 minutes ago, paigow said:

Brienne told Sansa that she met Arya and "a man" near the Vale. Pod recognized him and explicitly told her it was "Ser Sandor Clegane - The Hound". However, Brienne neglected to mention that she knew the man's true identity, kicked him off a cliff, left him for dead and failed to gain Arya's trust.

Thanks! Now that you're describing it, it does sound familiar - I must have seen it and forgotten.

 

4 hours ago, stagmania said:

I'm glad HBO clarified this, and I agree it makes perfect sense and confirms that Jon did not, in fact, take anything from Sansa. Would have been nice if the show had bothered to present it all clearly. I wonder if they played it all so ambiguous so they could leave themselves some wiggle room on what to do with Sansa next season. 

I see it as wanting to go for the triangle of doom next season, with Littlefinger and Jon fighting over Sansa's soul or something. But I'm glad it's been made clear that yes, she is the Lady of Winterfell.

[jeansheridan]

On 6/27/2016 at 5:46 PM, MarySNJ said:

I'm kind of hoping that when Jon and Dany finally meet, he will have more important things to do than court a Queen (politically or romantically) because the Northmen and their allies will be up to their eyeballs in White Walkers and wights. If she wants to lend a dragon or three to the effort to save the whole of the Seven Kingdoms from certain death, I'm sure he'll be happy for the help. 

Given Jon's general lack of romantic behavior, I suspect this will be the case.  They will look amazing in the same frame however.  She's small enough to make him look taller and their coloring will be such a perfect contrast.   One of my favorite moments on the show is when Sam is quizzing Jon about Ygrette and Jon's just at loss for words since he doesn't do romance.  It's just a quick moment but Jon's perplexed and his frustrated look is a thing of joy.  Yep, I've slowly grown into a Kit Harington fan.  It took three seasons, but by the time he climbed the wall (still one of my favorite sequences), I was hooked.  I think it was because he helped Ygrette to her feet to show her the South side of the wall.  

[jeansheridan]

On 6/28/2016 at 5:52 AM, Constantinople said:

You mean, aside from blowing up the Sept of Baelor with hundreds of people in it?

It's a matter of scale I guess, but Dany did burn up the meeting hut of the Dothraki's and killed probably most of the leadership in one fell swoop.  Not saying those guys were innocent.  But Cersei has never worried about collateral damage.  I think it was a bold move on her part.  She was backed in a corner.  Was it honorable?  Nope.  But just a few months earlier all those people had been jeering at her walking the streets (and you can't tell me the nobility wasn't sneering behind her back).  Why should she care if they died?  She's been raised to believe common people are less than her.  Her father slaughtered an entire family to make a point.  She's just did it on a larger scale.  She's evil, but not insane.  

And I think this will matter ultimately.  The Mad King could not be reasoned with so Jaime had to kill or incapacitate him.  If she's not insane, how much harder it will be for him to deal with her.  Because I do think Jaime is the one taking her down.  It will be awful, but it will be him, not Arya.  Actually it would be satisfying if it were Sansa but Sansa has already had one satisfying kill.  Giving her two would be excessive.

[Raachel2008]

4 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

Because I do think Jaime is the one taking her down.  It will be awful, but it will be him, not Arya.  Actually it would be satisfying if it were Sansa but Sansa has already had one satisfying kill.  Giving her two would be excessive

Agree on all accounts. Arya alredy killed a bunch of people from her list, and some pretty big ones, like Walder Frey. Sansa killed Ramsay, a big death from any angle you look at it, and will probably be the one to end Littlefinger. Cersei is Jamie's, and just to make things worse, I think we are going to see Euron and Cersei joining forces through marriage against Dany, and this will mess up Jamie even more.

 

6 hours ago, arjumand said:

I see it as wanting to go for the triangle of doom next season, with Littlefinger and Jon fighting over Sansa's soul or something. But I'm glad it's been made clear that yes, she is the Lady of Winterfell.

1 - I wonder if the 'regular viewer', not versed in the books, medieval stuff or how the sucession line works will ever get the difference even if it's mentioned on screen. I'm saying that because some of my friends think Jon is KITN and Lord of Winterfall, and Sansa is Lady of Winterfell because he doesn't have a wife and she is is sister.

2 - Sansa is an A+ idiot if she indulges in Littefinger's ideas for whatever reason. I'm not Sansa's biggest fan, but even I can see how Sansa doing something stupid as that (thus needing to be saved) is a diservice to the character.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Raachel2008

[connieinnc]

I keep thinking, during the discussion where Jon offered Sansa the 'master' suite; wouldn't that be the same rooms in which she was raped and tortured by Ramsey? I completely understand that COULD be a reason that she prefer to let Jon have those rooms. Thoughts? 

[Ambrosefolly]

28 minutes ago, connieinnc said:

I keep thinking, during the discussion where Jon offered Sansa the 'master' suite; wouldn't that be the same rooms in which she was raped and tortured by Ramsey? I completely understand that COULD be a reason that she prefer to let Jon have those rooms. Thoughts? 

I think Roose would have taken that room.

[screamin]

5 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

She's been raised to believe common people are less than her.  Her father slaughtered an entire family to make a point.  She's just did it on a larger scale.  She's evil, but not insane.  

I disagree. What Cersei's done lately IMO shows she's insane even compared to her own extremely individual previous definition of sanity. Originally she would have done anything to protect her children. Now her last child dies in an outcome she could have easily predicted and prevented and...she shrugs.

[MarySNJ]

17 hours ago, paigow said:

Nobody in the North knows about Walder yet...Unless Arya wrote her name in blood on the dining room table, nobody can give her credit for the kills. Did Sansa tell Jon that Arya was recently seen alive? Or that's another nugget her trust issues are causing her to withhold? 

I assumed the avenging that Lord Manderly referred to meant the Boltons betrayal of Robb at the Twins. The Freys violated the guest right which evidently is taken more seriously in the North and hosted the betrayal, but Roose was one of Robb's sworn bannermen and commanders and he personally stuck the knife in Robb's back and instigated the slaughter the of Robb's troops at the Twins. 

[connieinnc]

On 6/27/2016 at 10:01 PM, ToniG said:

Yes:

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

Could the sun refer to the Martells (rising in Westeros, going to Essos), the seas to the Ironborn/Greyjoys (giving up reaving as Tara promised Dany), mountains to the Cleganes?

[connieinnc]

2 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

I think Roose would have taken that room.

But I believe Ramsey originally held Winterfell, while Roose remained Lord of the Dreadfort (?). Would Roose care to have the 'Lord's' suite when he moved to Winterfell? I can't remember if Fat Walda's death happened before or after Sansa's escape.

Edited July 6, 2016 by connieinnc
Incomplete thought

[Ambrosefolly]

But Sansa already had escaped. 

[connieinnc]

On 6/27/2016 at 11:33 PM, mac123x said:

Book!Dany interprets that as MMD's gloating curse.  However, there's decent evidence that all the preconditions have been met:  Quentin is the sun rising in the west and setting in the east.  During her trek through the Dothraki Sea, she notices that the grass is dying due to the approaching winter.  Her dragons damaged the pyramids "mountains" in Meereen.  And she may have been pregnant and just had a miscarriage:  she notices she's bleeding, then thinks "oh, that's just moonblood.  It's been 2, maybe 3 months since the last one?  hmm."  Then she notices it's a lot more blood then usual.  

Her casual initial reaction implies that she's been menstruating normally; if she hadn't gotten her period since her baby died, she'd have more of an OMG moment.  That it's been 2-3 months since her last period could indicate that she was pregnant, and the excessive nature of this one was her miscarrying due to the extreme privation she's experiencing on her walk back to Meereen.

 

Long story short (too late! [/Clue reference]), they skipped all that shit in the show, and MMD's curse was basically a poetic "fuck you, Drogo is a vegetable.  HA ha".  

Darn it, I posted a similar theory before reading the thread. Apologies for stepping on your coattails.

[bluvelvet]

I also think that Sansa was kept locked away in another room, wasn't she?  I remember her room being on the small side so I don't think it was the masters chambers.

[Gertrude]

Whatever the HBO site says, I don't think it was clear that Sansa remains Lady of Winterfell. I don't know how the show would broach that, to be fair. It's boring bureaucratic crap that no one wants to listen to after KING IN THE NORTH!

No matter how the show decides to play it, I think it's something they had to work around as I'm not sure how it plays out in the books. Possibly the Vale and Sansa aren't in play yet, and the Northerners are clear and free to declare Jon King as the last 'living' Stark. And of course there is Robb's will that would give it to Jon outright if acknowledged by the Lords. Either way, the show has to hand-wave something that is much more cut and dried in the books (presumably). So Sansa retaining Winterfell and Jon becoming a King without a keep is something a bit improbable that the show is asking us to just go with.

Part of the reason they wanted Jon was because he had Ned's blood. He earned it on his own, but the Stark blood didn't hurt a bit. I imagine Jon will take the Stark name, unless he founds House Snow, or just creates a whole new House and takes over one of the forfeit keeps laying around (Umber, Bolton, Karstark). Winterfell would then just be downgraded to a major Northern House instead of the Paramount House. No need for a warden anymore either, so it's still a downgrade for Sansa, which she is probably fine with, but it still doesn't seem like a thing that would happen. And really, is Jon taking any name but Stark? (at this point in the story, anyway)

[Skeeter22]

The Northerners really are stupid. They named Jon, who has no heirs and no legitimate power base, King in the North because they think he can lead them into battle. A warrior king generally has a very short life expectancy for obvious reasons. Jon has no obvious successor, and they've already passed over his only known living relative. The largest army currently in the region isn't even from the North. They're facing the possibility of total annihilation, and they've got a potential succession crisis on their hands. We saw what happened in the North the last time there was a power vacuum. It's all a disaster waiting to happen. 

[WearyTraveler]

3 hours ago, connieinnc said:

But I believe Ramsey originally held Winterfell, while Roose remained Lord of the Dreadfort (?). Would Roose care to have the 'Lord's' suite when he moved to Winterfell? I can't remember if Fat Walda's death happened before or after Sansa's escape.

As Warden of the North, Roose was the Lord of Winterfell, which is the seat that goes with the title.  No way Roose would make the Dreadfort his permanent seat as Warden, that's a smaller castle and WF is the symbol of having the power and control of the North. Also, no way he would give the bigger title to his son and keep the smaller title (Lord of the Dreadfort) for himself.

Ramsey held WF until Roose got back because you can't leave the seat of the Warden unguarded, lest some other Lord tries to take it.  Basically, as Roose's legitimized son (and heir), Ramsay was left in charge of protecting the family seat, just like Bran was left in charge while Robb was fighting his war. Bran didn't take his father's bedroom, and neither would have Ramsay taken Roose's.

[paramitch]

(I'm so late!!) But I watched it twice, first time I've done that since "Hardhome." A really good episode, with memorable moments both gorgeous and terrible. Things I loved that I haven't seen mentioned:

• The opening! And the music. Loved the progression of piano to cello to child vocal to organ.
• The last shot of the opening on Tommen--hemmed in by the ironwork. Trapped and unaware.
• The green flames flaring up in Lancel's eyes as the wildfire caught.
• That last horrified look between Marg and the HS. I'm sorry to see Margaery go but she died as she lived, as the smartest person in the room. At least she'd saved Olenna beforehand.
• The fact that Tommen was wearing gold (per the prophecy). 
• Benjen's hilarious farewell to Meera and Bran--dumping them a mile from the Wall through thick forest. Just watching Meera lug Bran a few feet to the godtree was both funny and painful.
• Cersei's creepily tender, almost erotic confession to the Septa. Then her resigned, controlled grief at Tommen's death. Something dies in her there. Lena is fabulous.
• When Jaime said the girl wasn't his type. Bronn: "Not blonde enough?" I did an actual spit take.
• I always enjoy Qyburn--a horrific, twisted man. But the actor plays him as such a nice guy!
• I got a kick out of the clerk at the Oldtown library. Memorably quirky in just a few moments.
• Staredown #1: Sansa/Petyr: To echo DigitalCount, Sansa looked happy and proud until she saw Petyr, then turned disquieted and scared. He looked grim, unhappy and dangerous.
• Staredown #2: Jaime/Cersei: I definitely felt his look was one of grief, dread and disillusionment. He has tears in his eyes. I felt it was definitely the end of his feelings for her.
• I found the cut from (insanely adorable) worried wrinkled forehead Baby-Jon to the adult worried Jon surprisingly powerful. A moment of time-travel: The baby becomes a king.
• Bunnyblue, I'm with you, I was chuckling out loud at Tormund casually chomping in the background through the whole debate. All he needed was a bag of Wildling popcorn.
• Interesting parallel in the final scene--that Dany, like Cersei, Sansa, Yara, Arya (!), is wearing black--and echoing Cersei even has silver epaulets woven into her shoulders! Loved that in the final coronation, Cersei covered the mesh epaulets with actual armor (so very Cersei). And that fantastic black mesh dress that so echoed Tywin's outfits! 
• I was also moved that we took a real moment just for Theon to look up on the deck of the ship to see his banner flying proudly before the sun. Poor Theon. I kind of love him. I can't help it.

My one major complaint: The scene with Davos, Jon and Mel was well done, but I was bothered by CvH's choices. Why so visibly upset? After all, she isn't actually remorseful--she still thinks it was right. So her visible regret felt weird. I did think Liam Cunningham was fantastic, and I was so glad Jon backed him, because, at some point, Mel would absolutely start burning people again. It's her favorite thing. She'd break a nail or have a dream and suddenly start spouting off new lists of people for the Lord of Light to torch. It's her go-to move when Westeros WiFi goes out and things get slow.

On 6/27/2016 at 8:18 AM, iMonrey said:

Yeah - I know her bad-assery is getting a lot of "likes" but I've never found her very plausible. I can't imagine any of the great houses letting a nine year old run the show no matter how "tough" she is. Especially when she's a girl. I'd think there would be some sort of regent in place to run House Mormont until she came of age. And I can't see all those other Northern lords letting some little girl shame them in public. I think most of them would be like "Sit your ass down, little girl."

I would argue that Lady Lyanna Mormont is surprisingly plausible; history of full of children who were bred to rule and to actually command adults, and whom adults took with total seriousness -- from the little boys who served as officers in the English Navy during the Napoleonic wars to the male and female children who (with varying success) held thrones throughout Europe, Egypt and Asia. I also think Bella Ramsey, the actress who plays her, has tremendous presence. I love her sharp little face.

On 6/27/2016 at 9:15 AM, Pogojoco said:

And I agree, the Jon Snow as deserter of the Night's Watch stuff is being weirdly glossed over.

Jon isn't a deserter. He pledged to serve until death. He did so.

On 6/27/2016 at 11:32 AM, stillshimpy said:

(snipped for space)
There were other people in that room with Lyanna, Ned and Howland wouldn't simply kill the nurses.  "Someone told, someone always tells" (or was it talks?) from the books.  

I don't think Lyanna went with Rhaegar willingly in this version of the story because there's zero confessional  vibe to that scene.  She's just glad to see Ned, even though she knows she's dying. No conflict, no regret, no "sorry how my relationship choices got most of our family killed, oopsie" vibe to it all.

That scene made Sam's entire story this season worthwhile.  

I really enjoyed this episode and greatly, GREATLY appreciate the narrative momentum that Martin has entirely lost sight of how to achieve.  

I never thought about the nurse showing up again, but of COURSE she must! Great thought. I disagree on Lyanna/Rhaegar though -- to me it's just the writers (trying to tell us as little as possible in few words while still providing a grand reveal). I'm almost always irritated at these scenes though, because nobody ever says what they actually would. People on deathbeds are rarely terse or cryptic.

I think Sam's scene was important because he'll make a key discovery in that very library that will help to end the Night King. (Also, to echo another poster, Gilly looked adorable this episode. Though I was distracted that there wasn't a single chair in the lobby and she was holding ginormous baby Sam!)

I'm not sure how I feel about Arya taking over the Frey pies. Great reveal, beautifully acted by Maisie, but it saddened me too. (As far as the 'face magic' goes, she was alone in the Hall of Faces before Jaquen got there; she could easily have bagged a few. Besides, I think it's ALL magic anyway, and the faces are a kind of virtual databank, which is why they don't all have big hairy discoverable faces in their bags; instead, they seem to appear and disappear as needed when "pulled off." Which would also explain why several have worn Jaquen's face even in the same room/almost the same time.)

I also had a hard time logistically with the Arya revelation: She had to arrive, kill, butcher two grown men, make PASTRY, serve DINNER (and cocktails!) to a room of ruffians, then kill Walder. Sheesh. And Manderley was such a big Falstaffian character in the book, darn it. (Though I'd've given anything for Hot Pie to stroll in, wave at Arya and go, "Hey, how'd that crust turn out?!")

On Daario's farewell to Dany, I thought for some reason Michael Huisman was super-duper phoning it in, and even his accent work was palpably uneven. Although I did like the moment when he admitted that he wasn't enraged so much as full of self-pity.

But I loved Tyrion's scene with Dany and I get what she sees in him--he was at his best as the Hand (ably defending KL), and he's a smart, insightful guy who understands the slimy sea of royal politics from inside, yet he's still got a little belief. I was also very affected by his face there, because it's obvious he's in love with Dany already (bless his heart, of course he is), and because he just seemed so genuinely moved by her faith in him. For me it was Dinklage's best work since freeing the dragons.

Last but not least: I will never believe the Stark kids would quibble over who has the throne (Northern or Iron varieties). The Starks are not Lannisters or Baratheons. They're not going to rip apart their family--much less a kingdom--for power. If and when Bran returns, I'm certain Bran and Jon will argue why the OTHER is most worthy. So I definitely don't think we're going to see bickering over the title. Arya would never want it. Sansa might take it if Jon takes the Iron Throne with Dany, or if she marries another leader, Bran would take it. But they would back each other before anyone else.

Thanks everyone for a great season of discussion by the way.

[WearyTraveler]

Regardig the face magic, I seem to remember that when Jaqen first changed his face in front of Arya on the show, it wasn't as dramatic as what we have seen Arya do.  Just like in the books, he moved his hand over his face and it changed.

In the books, he explains at some point that your face "learns" to change, and that, once it does, it never forgets.  So, I think the way it works is that you put the face on once, your muscles "learn" the shape, and then you give the face back so others can learn that shape/form. In the future, you can adopt any of the faces you have already learned, without having to put them on again.

[Gertrude]

3 hours ago, doram said:

Well, if he's House Snow then the North would have to find a new naming system for bastards. Which would be extremely inconvenient to say the least, especially when the name Stark is literally just lying there, not being used by anyone (Sansa obviously, doesn't count). 

I guess he could pull a KarStark and call his new house JonStark or Starkjon. But once again, why bother? He's Ned Stark's son. He was crowned with that as one of his selling points. And as noted, there are no other Starks around to confuse things. I don't see anyone raising any great objection to him claiming the name. 

And yeah, the whole Sansa is Lady but Jon is King is just HBO spewing nonsense. In addition to all the obvious reasons, that would mean that the Northern lords actually give a fuck enough about Sansa to make her Lady of Winterfell. I don't think they even realized she was in the hall that day. 

 

That's my point - of course Jon would take the name Stark. The other options are not plausible. And I disagree that Sansa doesn't count as a Stark. Cat was called Catelyn Tully as often as she was called Lady Stark. Cersei was almost never called Cersei Baratheon. Stark will always be Sansa's name no matter what others she takes.

Again, this is why the distinction between King of the North and Winterfell is silly. What else will Jon call himself? And as Jon Stark, that's a conflict with Sansa Stark, Lady of Winterfell that's not compatible. And of course Bran is out there and crossing the Wall and back into the story soon. He has a claim to the Stark name and position at Winterfell (even if we know he's got a different role to play) that is stronger than Sansa's.  As Weary Traveler says, names have power Just as Stark has power, so does the name Winterfell. Sansa can act as Lady of Winterfell for the time being, but it's not hers to keep as long as Jon is head of House Stark - which he obviously is now, bullshit technical divisions on the HBO page aside.

And of course, this is all meaningless because things will change too fast to keep up. Which is probably what the show is counting on to distract us from the fact that it is not tenable.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Gertrude

[Gertrude]

54 minutes ago, paramitch said:

Last but not least: I will never believe the Stark kids would quibble over who has the throne (Northern or Iron varieties).

I think pretty much everyone is in agreement here with that.

I am arguing a few things that seem like I dispute that fact, but it has nothing to do with the actual Stark kids and their relationship. Mainly it comes down to the confusing and inconsistent writing for Sansa. It's hard to tell what was intended because interviews and what we actually see on the screen don't seem to line up. Also I hate the fact that the Northern Lords steal Winterfell out from underneath her without a second thought. We know she was fine with Jon having it, but she didn't speak up in public so now she just looks like a weak little victim again (not to mention that they both know Bran is possibly still out there and don't give it a second thought or speak of him after Rickons' death)

[benteen]

You know, I recall in Season 1 Sophie Turner mentioning that Sansa went to Cersei after Ned told her they were leaving King's Landing.  The thing is though, that was a book only scene that was never mentioned on the show.  Perhaps it was a scene/line that was cut out of the episode.  But it showed to me a disconnect when it came to her character very early on.  Now we have her giving interviews about her character's arc that seem different from what we actually SEE on the show.

I've mentioned this before but I can't be mad at Sansa's character because I truly don't know what the writers are doing with her (particularly with her withholding information to Jon about the Vale army).

I completely agree that the Stark kids would never quibble over who got to sit on a throne.

[YaddaYadda]

12 hours ago, doram said:

I guess he could pull a KarStark and call his new house JonStark or Starkjon. But once again, why bother? He's Ned Stark's son. He was crowned with that as one of his selling points. And as noted, there are no other Starks around to confuse things. I don't see anyone raising any great objection to him claiming the name. 

What I thought was interesting in that scene with Lyanna Mormont's speech was the callback to season 1 when Ned told Jon that he may not have his name, but he has his blood which is basically what Lyanna Mormont repeated. He may be a bastard, but Ned Stark's blood flows through him. I guess they had to choose the dialogue carefully because of the R+L=J reveal that we got 5 seconds before. Ned considered him a Stark, Robb considered him a Stark, and it seems Lyanna Mormont does too, and I wouldn't be surprised if the other lords do as well.

The thing is, we don't know how the North really feels about high born bastards. Roose Bolton is not a reference because he was a sadist. We know that the Dornish don't give much of a flip that someone is a bastard, they don't treat them the same way the other kingdoms do. But I don't remember anything about the North.

About Sansa, and the whole Lady of Winterfell. Jon acknowledges her as the Lady of Winterfell, what does anyone else in the North care what Jon and Sansa may have discussed. She was sitting on the dias next to him. She wasn't off in the back of the room, in the corner. She was next to him, which to me said exactly how important she was. Where we saw Lyanna Mormont or Bran sit with the Maesters and the Master of Arms, it was Sansa who was sitting next to Jon. It wasn't Davos who has become Jon's advisor, or Tormund who fought next to him even though it wasn't his fight, or LF who brought the army of the Vale. It was Jon and Sansa, and no one else.

And I think that shows exactly how important she is. 

And this is why I don't believe she'll turn on Jon.

[bluvelvet]

Re: the Northern houses listening to a 10 year old.  Can't remember if it was season 1 or 2 but when Robb left Winterfell, Bran was in charge. I remember a scene with him sitting at that table hearing out disputes from the Northerners. Anyone else remember this ? If 10 year old Bran was respected as followed as the Lord of WF, I can see them listening to Lyanna. 

I'm also in the court that WF is Sansa's if she is the Lady of WF, and Jons title of KITN is separate. 

[Tikichick]

On 7/4/2016 at 8:25 PM, Macbeth said:

I have nothing but good intentions stillshimpy. 

Well this season was a vast improvement over S5.  Between the Boltons and Shireen's death that season was hard for me.  I think I was also mourning the loss of Tywin Lannister.  He was a magnificent bastard.  And while I don't think the show has ever recovered from his death, I am actually looking forward to next season.  Good job show.

Funny, in the books and the show I absolutely mourned Tywin's loss, although particularly in the books I cannot say he was a character I "liked".  In the show I really came to appreciate the actor and was dreading his departure, despite being angry at his horrible mistreatment of a character I very much like -- Tyrion.

[Andeleisha]

For those of you with timeline whiplash, this was bothering me too, so I put together a timeline for the show: 

http://www.fandomfollowing.com/how-much-time-has-passed-on-game-thrones/

[Ambrosefolly]

1 hour ago, bluvelvet said:

Re: the Northern houses listening to a 10 year old.  Can't remember if it was season 1 or 2 but when Robb left Winterfell, Bran was in charge. I remember a scene with him sitting at that table hearing out disputes from the Northerners. Anyone else remember this ? If 10 year old Bran was respected as followed as the Lord of WF, I can see them listening to Lyanna. 

I'm also in the court that WF is Sansa's if she is the Lady of WF, and Jons title of KITN is separate. 

That was by the small folk asking for shit or ordering his men to travel to protect Torren's Square. When one of the subjects starts really bitching and Bran starts dressing him down, older, wiser Luwin cuts it short and remedies the problem. Those men were battle harden Lords from houses that had more prestige than hers. 

[Hecate7]

18 hours ago, doram said:

And yeah, the whole Sansa is Lady but Jon is King is just HBO spewing nonsense. In addition to all the obvious reasons, that would mean that the Northern lords actually give a fuck enough about Sansa to make her Lady of Winterfell. I don't think they even realized she was in the hall that day. 

Sansa doesn't need to be "made" Lady of Winterfell. She was born to it, in the first place, and is the last trueborn child of Eddard Stark. In the second place, she is the widow of Lord Bolton, and it's hers by that right, as well. Finally, it's hers by right of conquest, as she brought the Vale troops. I seriously doubt ownership of Winterfell is up for debate. The North had reunited under the Stark banner with Jon Snow as their leader. Naming him King in the North doesn't create a conflict with Sansa, it creates one with Littlefinger, who was named Warden of the North by Cersei on the condition that he use this new position to bring her Sansa's head.

Quote

If 10 year old Bran was respected as followed as the Lord of WF, I can see them listening to Lyanna. 

Absolutely! In this culture, heredity outweighs other considerations.

Edited July 6, 2016 by Hecate7

[arjumand]

1 hour ago, Hecate7 said:

Sansa doesn't need to be "made" Lady of Winterfell. She was born to it, in the first place, and is the last trueborn child of Eddard Stark. In the second place, she is the widow of Lord Bolton, and it's hers by that right, as well. Finally, it's hers by right of conquest, as she brought the Vale troops. I seriously doubt ownership of Winterfell is up for debate. The North had reunited under the Stark banner with Jon Snow as their leader. Naming him King in the North doesn't create a conflict with Sansa, it creates one with Littlefinger, who was named Warden of the North by Cersei on the condition that he use this new position to bring her Sansa's head.

BOOM. Hecate7 drops the mic.

In other words, you're so right. I'd like to have seen Sansa's face at any suggestion that they were giving her the seat of the Stark family which has been in the Stark family for thousands of years, only to be "thence wrenched with an unlineal hand", i.e., taken by treachery.

Re. what I bolded - oh, yeah. I wonder if Littlefinger will go to King's Landing to complain and after spending five minutes in that throne room (a room with huge windows which manages to look gloomier than an old style hall only lit by candlelight) tiptoes out again.

Something completely different - I've been doing a rewatch of the whole season, and I've found the exact spot where Cersei decided that not only Kevan Lannister was fucking dead, but that if Tommen bought it, she wasn't going to be too sad:

Episode 6.08. Announcement in the throne room, 'what about me, Uncle Kevan? I'm the Queen mother!', banished to the balcony, preteen son tells her, in code, that she's corrupt and should face her punishment, Qyburn uses lots of oblique language to say "It's WILDFIRE, ok? Fucking wildfire. I've found an assload. Let's fuck shit up."

Anyone who saw that look on Cersei's face and didn't immediately start packing their bags for Braavos or something was too stupid to live.

Edited July 6, 2016 by arjumand
Qyburn's name is spelled stupid

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Hecate7 said:

Naming him King in the North doesn't create a conflict with Sansa, it creates one with Littlefinger, who was named Warden of the North by Cersei on the condition that he use this new position to bring her Sansa's head.

An offer that, as Littlefinger acknowledges, is already effectively rescinded since Littlefinger rather publicly did not do that, and instead aided the Starks in retaking Winterfell.  Moreover, his men are pro-Stark.  He was never going to be able to follow through on that promise; that wasn't even the point of it, it was simply to get Cersei's permission to invade the North and postpone his open breach with the crown a little longer.

[SeanC]

3 minutes ago, doram said:

Allow me to head-desk a little at D&D for creating this plot where Sansa reveals her identity and uses her name to save Littlefinger and secure his power in the Vale but is somehow unable to use that power to save herself from being sold to the Boltons. 

She wasn't sold to the Boltons against her will, she agreed to go (which, yeah, that's a whole other can of worms).

[screamin]

4 hours ago, doram said:

So when there's a Lady of Winterfell and a King in the North at the same time, and both are claiming their titles by virtue by being children of Eddard Stark, there is definitely conflict over who Winterfell belongs to.

Only if the actual people possessing the titles and supporting the titles choose to make an issue of it. I don't see either of them doing so right now, or in the immediate future - at least until the greater enemies are beaten back and they survive the immediate threat to their survival, which is by no means a given. One or both of them might die in the coming struggle with Cersei, the Dragon Queen, LF, the Night King, and whatever else comes out of the woodwork, in which case the relatively insignificant quibble about who owns Winterfell is moot. In the meantime, only an arrant idiot would mess with a compromise that's working in the face of such threats.

[paigow]

20 hours ago, paramitch said:

Though I'd've given anything for Hot Pie to stroll in, wave at Arya and go, "Hey, how'd that crust turn out?!"

 

Hot Pie Ramsay: Look at this filling... IT'S RAW!!!! You're going to kill somebody! Get out!

[SandSniper]

On ‎28‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 2:03 AM, slf said:

Why? For the most obvious and simple of reasons: Sansa is the legitimate heir of Eddard Stark.................. And refusing to support Ned's heir and selecting his illegitimate son instead is essentially treason................Jon is usurping his sister. He's no more legally a King than Cersei is a Queen.

Are you guys watching the same show? Why in this thread is Team Sansa & Team Jon trying to get fight club going when the characters Sansa & Jon are 100% together and fully committed to Team Stark?

Sansa and her super powered sewing skills whipped up a Ned Stark look alike wolf coat/cape for Jon. She apologized for not telling him about the knights of the Vale. When he said she should take the Lords chambers she said he should take it. When Jon said he wasn’t a Stark Sansa’s exact words were: “You are to me”.

Heck Jon on the battlements saying he wasn’t a Stark and calling her the Lady of Winterfell showed that he has no ambitions to screw Sansa out of Winterfell or the North or anything.

When Sansa was offered the North & maybe Queen of all Westeros instead of backstabbing Jon she friend zoned Littlefinger but was smart enough to keep his hope alive if she needs to play Lilttlefinger.

I think it was very telling at the religious tree when Sansa said when she was a girl she used to pray for what she thought she wanted i.e. to be Queen in Kingslanding  rather than be thankful for what she had  with her loving family and idyllic life at Winterfell.

If Rickon Stark had lived I have no doubt if Rickon wanted it both Sansa and Jon would have happily stepped aside and accepted him as the true heir.

After being so royally screwed over in three arranged marriage engagements if Ygritte would have lived and Jon told Sansa he loved her I bet dollars to donuts Sansa in a heartbeat would have accepted the wilding girl as her sister in law and with her mad sewing skills whipped up a wolf embroidery pattern wedding dress for Ygritte overnight.

Sansa 100% supports Jon as King in the North and she knows Jon needs her skills in scheming learned the hard way to protect Team Stark from Littlefinger. Sansa has his back because she knows Jon is just as honorable and naive as Ned Stark.

Maybe they didn’t have time in the script but it would have been nice when Jon and Sansa were on the battlements that Jon said “You sure were right about Ramsay setting traps and I stupidly ran right into it”.

And then Sansa saying: “I didn’t tell you about the knights of the Vale because I didn’t know if it was a sure thing and I am still mentally screwed up over trusting even the people I love because of my experiences over the last several years yada yada yada.

But I really didn’t need Jon or Sansa to say it out loud because that is exactly the vibe I got from both of them.

You guys can try to construct some Jon & Sansa fight club scenario in your heads but I think you guys are wrong and those two crazy kids are 100% together watching each other’s backs playing for Team Stark.

Just my two dirhams worth from the Middle East.

Warmest Regards, SandSniper  

PS

Edited July 7, 2016 by SandSniper

[Macbeth]

And another mic has been dropped by SandSniper.  I agree with you 1000%,

[SandSniper]

On ‎30‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 5:44 AM, lovebug1975 said:

i do have to say, cersie's wardrobe this week was stunning.

Cersei Lannister might be a major evil bit*ch but I have a real weakness for short haired women and Lena Headey with her post "walk of shame" haircut turned into exactly my type.

She really is a heartbreaker.

Warmest Regards, SandSniper

[SandSniper]

On ‎30‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 5:46 AM, Ambrosefolly said:

Never a child in your class that just seemed to pick up sports a little more quickly, naturally faster or more  agile? Who knows, maybe Sansa would be able to be much better at tennis than many other novices in a couple of months. 

Nice thought but not realistic. Even if Sansa had natural talent and after a couple months could beat all the novices in a real fight she wouldn't be competing against novices but sword fighters etc that have been training for years. There is a reason they have stunt men and body doubles etc for the  actors.

Years ago I was on the Canadian National fencing team and it isn't easy but took a couple hours a day for years to finally hold my own internationally. Today I train in HEMA long sword & military saber and even after a life time I have to train on a regular basis to maintain the "fencing mojo".

For fighters in the "Game of Thrones" universe it isn't a serious sport but literally their life on the line so no one would be a "novice".

That said Sansa's best bet to defend herself is to learn to shoot a crossbow. That really is pretty easy to learn and what one of the great advantages of crossbows in the Middle Ages. To learn to shoot an English long bow it took years of practice while you could train a novice to shoot a cross bow relatively quickly.

The only real question would be if Sansa was strong enough by herself to load the cross bow. She looks pretty fit and has some real height so as long as she could load it I think learning to shoot the cross bow for self defense is her best bet.

Just my two dirhams worth.

Warmest Regards, SandSniper

[John Potts]

I can't see Sansa turning on Jon - Littlefinger sold her to the Boltons, while Jon ignored her advice. In the grand scheme of things, even if she bought LF's "Ramsay was a monster? I had no idea!" excuse, he has no designs on her person (which she knows LF does) and has done more for her to get revenge on those who have wronged he than LF has (unless LF pipes up and says, "I've been totally undermining Cersei for months!" which seems unlikely). Yes, he killed Lysa but she can surely see that that was as much for his benefit as for hers.
 

Quote

 

Skeeter22 They're facing the possibility of total annihilation, and they've got a potential succession crisis on their hands

 

 

Why? If they are accepting him because he's a Stark, then Sansa is clearly his heir and she's (presumably) capable of having children. If they discovered Brandon was still alive, he'd presumably be ahead of her (via male Primo Geniture) in succession, though it seems unlikely he'd accept the throne (or Wardenship of the North, should the 7Ks reunite). Even if he's revealed as Lyanna's child rather than Ned's, Sansa is still his closest Stark relative. If Jon ends up on the Iron throne, it'll probably be Sansa and her children that rule the North. And if Jon was to need a seat of power to act as KitN, the Bolton line is now defunct and the Dreadfort is actually closer to the Wall, which is what Jon really cares about.

 

Quote

stillshimpy - Howland Reed doesn't need to be in the room for him to know about Jon, GrailKing, because here's what happens:  Ned, single man with a sword enters tower to save his sister.  Emerges without his sister, but with a baby in tow.

 Not to mention, Ned brought Lyanna's body back to Winterfell. Presumably Howland helped with that and is likely to have asked "So, how did she die then?" There's "Keeping quiet" and then there's "Completely lacking in curiosity", even if he hadn't noticed there were three Kingsguard protecting her, for some reason.

Quote

Hecate7  the last time a Tyrell came to Dorne he was assassinated, so I think we are meant to take from this that the Tyrells and Martells are very unlikely allies.

 

"Politics is the art of the possible". They may not like each other, but (as in Robert's Rebellion) they'll join together if they consider it in their best interest. As Winston Churchill put it in WW II, when confronted that he had condemned Stalin prior to entering an Alliance with him in 1941, "And if Hitler declared war on hell itself, you can be sure I'd put in a good word for the devil in the House of Commons!"

(Apologies if I'm contradicting stuff that happened onscreen - I've not actually seen any full episode since the end of Season 3, though I know via various recaps - and the books - most of what happened)
 

[Gertrude]

7 hours ago, SandSniper said:

Are you guys watching the same show? Why in this thread is Team Sansa & Team Jon trying to get fight club going when the characters Sansa & Jon are 100% together and fully committed to Team Stark?

I could also ask if you are watching the same show as I am.

I agree with Sand Sniper in theory. Sansa does say things that make me think she is completely fine with Jon taking over and she gets to advise from the back row, safe at home and not a political pawn for ambitious players. However, when Sansa is shown on screen in other situations (i.e not with Jon alone) she gets enigmatic and hard to read. Add that to Sophie Turner's interviews about Sansa and her motives and things don't line up. In the behind the scenes episode, the showrunners talk about how Sansa is a little angry and jealous of Jon. The show is trying to get us to think Sansa has more going on than just 'I love and trust my brother. Go Direwolves.'

I don't think in my gut that Sansa would plot against Jon's interests, but the show wants us to start looking at it as a possibility, so we are. That's what bothers me about this particular plot thread - I'm not buying what they are trying to sell me. Sansa is written to be more petty and shallow than what I always envisioned her as and much more than I want her to be. That's my take.

[screamin]

5 hours ago, doram said:

Aemon Targ was already Maester and out of the running as King when Aegon V (Egg) was crowned. But he was still offered the throne and he made the decision to go the Wall and completely take himself out of the running. He literally exiled himself because he knew he was the focal point of anyone who was spoiling for a succession crisis. It's not up to the actual people possessing the titles to choose to make an issue of it. There are lots of opportunists eager to do it for them.

Ah, but you see, Aemon still made a choice NOT to make an issue of it. He became member of the Watch to underline the strength of that choice, but even joining the Watch doesn't cut off the options completely, as Jon's career shows (you really don't think all the North nobles who support him actually believe he died and was brought back to life, so his Night Watch vows are legally void? IMO, those who didn't actually witness it are comfortable with him breaking that particular oath). Even Aemon himself considered leaving the Wall to avenge the murder of Rhaegar's children...he didn't do it, but the fact that he considered it shows it WAS an option that he made the choice to reject. So the choice of the candidate NOT to make an issue of it does matter a good deal.

In the case of Jon vs. Sansa for Winterfell, I can't imagine Jon's bannermen demanding that he violently assert his claim over Winterfell against his own sister (which would be immensely stupid of them right now), or Jon either agreeing to do so or being forced to go along with it willy-nilly. On Sansa's side, she would not willingly do it either.

I suppose LF could take her captive, and with a knife to her throat force a marriage, and try to proclaim her Queen in the North and himself King by marriage - but since it's a title by acclamation, not inheritance, the lords of the North won't buy it. LF could try forcing them with the Vale's troops, but that represents a LOT of mission creep since his original stated aim of rescuing Sansa from the Boltons. Also: LF is not interested in being King in the North. He wants the big prize of the Iron Throne. And one good way of destroying his chances of ever getting it would be wasting the Vale's army in an unnecessary civil war in the North. Such a war with Jon's forces now would likely break down the Vale's forces like Napoleon's in Moscow in the winter, even if they won - leaving LF with no chance of taking the rest of the country. Far better to maintain an alliance with Jon's forces now for convenience and backstab him later.

Edited July 7, 2016 by screamin

[Hecate7]

10 hours ago, SandSniper said:

Nice thought but not realistic. Even if Sansa had natural talent and after a couple months could beat all the novices in a real fight she wouldn't be competing against novices but sword fighters etc that have been training for years. There is a reason they have stunt men and body doubles etc for the  actors.

Years ago I was on the Canadian National fencing team and it isn't easy but took a couple hours a day for years to finally hold my own internationally. Today I train in HEMA long sword & military saber and even after a life time I have to train on a regular basis to maintain the "fencing mojo".

For fighters in the "Game of Thrones" universe it isn't a serious sport but literally their life on the line so no one would be a "novice".

That said Sansa's best bet to defend herself is to learn to shoot a crossbow. That really is pretty easy to learn and what one of the great advantages of crossbows in the Middle Ages. To learn to shoot an English long bow it took years of practice while you could train a novice to shoot a cross bow relatively quickly.

The only real question would be if Sansa was strong enough by herself to load the cross bow. She looks pretty fit and has some real height so as long as she could load it I think learning to shoot the cross bow for self defense is her best bet.

Just my two dirhams worth.

Warmest Regards, SandSniper

The fact that Sansa enjoyed her needlework and all of those feminine pursuits like music and cooking and sewing probably means that she does not have a natural talent. We tend to be interested in the stuff we're naturally good at.

[screamin]

7 hours ago, doram said:

If the Nobles believe that white walkers (creatures of myth, last heard of millenia ago, creatures that even the Night's Watch themselves struggle to believe are real) are coming to Westeros and are ready to cast aside millenia of bad blood to fight alongside their sworn enemies the wildings (the same people who've been pillaging and raping their fellow Northmen) under Jon's banner ----  believe this so strongly that they make him King --- then of course, they believed that Jon was resurrected.

Well, my memory may be faulty, but IIRC, we didn't see much indication that the Northern nobles actually DO believe in White Walkers - much less made Jon king for that cause. As I recall it, the only time Jon even started to refer to the White Walkers as a threat to the North at large in his speech to the Northern, little Lady Mormont changed the subject to remind the lords how they had suffered at the hands of the Starks' enemies, shame them for their refusal to support House Stark till the battle was over, and encourage them to their old loyalties. As far as I could tell, THAT was what got the lords' support - not fear of some White Walkers the vast majority have always thought was myth.

Maybe Lady Mormont had the sense to change the subject at that moment because she has a fresher memory than Jon of how adults react when kids bring up the bogeyman.

7 hours ago, doram said:

Sansa didn't need a knife to her throat to think that marrying Ramsay Bolton was a good idea.

And you think she's learned nothing since then?

Edited July 8, 2016 by screamin

[YaddaYadda]

3 minutes ago, doram said:

It's so hard to keep track of the exact reason why the Northern Lords thought crowning Jon as King in the North was a good thing... but I thought the overlying argument that has been used so far is that they needed Jon to command an army against the coming WW crisis? 

He mentioned the enemy that they will be fighting against is one that brings the cold. I don't have a hard time believing that Lyanna Mormont would buy into this, she's a kid. She probably has/had her own Old Nan telling her stories about the Others, and whatever else.  

It's difficult for me to believe that these grown up Lords believe in the WW because of one of the very first scenes we got not just in the books, but also on the show. Ned beheaded a brother of the Night's Watch who judged as a deserter when he was going on about having seen them, and that they are real. Ned, Jory and the others there thought he had lost his mind. 

Without taking anything away from Jon, it seems like the North was looking for a leader because winter has come, and because there's an empty seat at the head of the table. They haven't had anyone to lead them since Robb died, and let's face it, the North is in a bit of disarray (one the show. In the books, the North is pretty awesome). Jon fits the bill because he allegedly built himself this reputation that the North is well aware of. Ramsay said that the way the stories go, Jon is the best swordsman ever, he rose quickly through the ranks and became Lord Commander. Him being a Stark is great because this is who the people look to.

It's going to be interesting to see Jon talk about the White Walkers, Hardhome, and see the reaction of these lords. 

[screamin]

59 minutes ago, doram said:

Sansa's track record for "learning from her mistakes" is abysmal. If she had learnt anything from her time in King's Landing, she won't have been married/sold to Ramsay in the first place. If she had learnt anything from watching her beloved Cersei ask for her direwolf's head, she won't have been... etc etc. I'm not holding out hopes that Sansa is suddenly going to be savvy and wise when her arc so far has been her repeating the same mistakes on an increasingly larger scale. 

Well then, agree to disagree, there.

59 minutes ago, doram said:

It's so hard to keep track of the exact reason why the Northern Lords thought crowning Jon as King in the North was a good thing... but I thought the overlying argument that has been used so far is that they needed Jon to command an army against the coming WW crisis? 

It's not actually that hard at all. I found the moment of Jon's acclamation as king within one minute of putting the words, "Jon, King, North" into YouTube search.

And I found I remembered rightly. The Northern lords were snarling angrily at Jon about bringing wildlings into their land. Jon was defensive and justified his actions as needful for the war. Another lord says the war is over anyway and they should all just go home and prepare for winter. Jon says this, and only this:

Quote

The war is not over. And I promise you, friend, the true enemy won't wait out the storm. He brings the storm.

That's ALL he says about the threat from beyond the Wall. Not word one about wights, White Walkers, or the Night King - or even to clarify that he's NOT talking about one of the Starks' normal human enemies that are still alive. And the lords aren't particularly convinced by him. They sit there and grumble in a long, apparently skeptical silence. There is no move to support Jon until Lady Mormont gives her pep talk about the debts owed to the Starks - in which there is ALSO not one word about wights, White Walkers or Night Kings. It's only then that they cheer and acclaim Jon as king.

So there you go. The North makes Jon king primarily over their emotional attachment to House Stark - not because there's any indication they're afraid of (or even believe in) the White Walkers. They make him king because he fought the battle against his enemies who are also THEIR enemies, he's put himself forward and is standing for his cause, and he's Ned Stark's son and the Starks are their ancestral lords. But Sansa is ALSO a Stark, and is being publically supportive of Jon. If you think, after that scene (watch that scene! It's really cool!) that it's at all likely that any of those lords would  think it was a GOOD idea to immediately advocate a civil war between two Stark blood-kin to see who gets Winterfell - well, we'll disagree on that, too.

Edited July 8, 2016 by screamin

[Colorful Mess]

For me, the entire point of Jon's character is that he becomes king because he's one of the few who earned the title through deeds and leading by example - not psychological games, sinister machinations, or brute force. He leads people and inspires them when all hope is lost. In the books his ideas are so far ahead of everyone else that he loses sight of the smaller picture, to his detriment (classic tragic hero complex). In the show, weirdly, he gets declared king through rhetorical flourishes. Jon didn't lead people through a difficult situation; he simply personally fulfilled his vendetta against Ramsay. Few of the Northern lords helped, so to overcome THEIR shame, cowardice, and feebleness, and to renew their traditional fealty to House Stark, they mollify their embarrassment by declaring a king. But was it Jon himself or just some Stark figurehead they liked? To me it seems less about HIM and his personal qualities of leadership, and more about THEIR emotional management of the situation. I was not fully convinced that the show runners laid the ground work for Jon earning this and it drives me insane. 

Edited July 8, 2016 by Colorful Mess

[Hecate7]

4 hours ago, doram said:

So in the eyes of these Lords,  Jon is exactly the same kind of deserter that Ned beheaded at the start of the story....? And they somehow think it's a good idea to crown him and *not* that little Lyanna hasn't outgrown her Old Nan tales? 

 

Quote

To me it seems less about HIM and his personal qualities of leadership, and more about THEIR emotional management of the situation. I was not fully convinced that the show runners laid the ground work for Jon earning this and it drives me insane.

That is just the point, I think. I don't think our hearts were meant to swell with triumph as the Northmen hailed Jon Snow KiTN. I think we were meant to feel very uncomfortable and uneasy. For one thing, the whole scene is a callback to Robb's being declared KiTN, and we all know how that turned out. Moreover, had Robb earned it? All he'd done was decide he had to fight Joffrey to avenge his father. I don't think he'd led the North through any important or transforming experiences. He had a giant wolf and an axe to grind, and that was enough for the Northmen.

Jon Snow is acclaimed KiTN by the Northmen, because he reclaimed Winterfell for Sansa and the Starks, and because he "avenged the Red Wedding." He was stabbed to death at the Wall because he took the Wildlings under his wing and defended Hardhome, and evacuated the survivors. There was a real sense of him having earned a position of leadership after Hardhome. He had done so much, but was not rewarded at all. The lesson here is that the actual achievements of the prospective king are less important than the way those around him perceive him and manage their emotions in determining kingship. Joffrey was a thoroughly undeserving king in every sense, but he is currently remembered as "the noblest child ever born," who would have ushered in a golden age had he been allowed to survive. Conversely, Robb, who would have made a fine king, is currently remembered as a demonically inspired werewolf, a monster who would have ravaged the world had he not been put down. There is no justice in GRRM's world.

This episode gives us three "kings"--Jon Snow, Cersei, and Danaerys, each of whom has come to the throne by a different path. Cersei has "earned" her crown by killing Robert Baratheon, living through the deaths of Joffrey and Myrcella, and blowing up the Sept, thereby removing Tommen and all of the Tyrells from her path. Danaerys has earned her queenship by conquering her way around Essos, raising three huge-ass dragons, acquiring the Unsullied and the Dothraki, and lucking into advisors capable of negotiating alliances with Dorne, the Tyrells, and the Ironborn. Finally, Jon Snow earned his kingship by "avenging the Red Wedding" and ousting Ramsey Bolton. He lucked into an alliance by birth with Sansa Stark, who brings the Riverlands and the Vale under their banners.

The easy victory appears to belong to Danaerys Unburnt, with her dragons, giant armies, and fleet of ships. But she's facing off against two pretty formidable allies. Of the three, she is the only contender who could conceivably beat the other two at once, but one good storm at sea could change that. I find it interesting that all three sides have someone who has miraculously cheated death. Danaerys didn't burn, Jon Snow was resurrected, and Gregor Clegane...well, he's not dead.

Edited July 8, 2016 by Hecate7

[anamika]

4 hours ago, doram said:

Nothing about the plot bears close scrutiny. D & D wanted to write a hero trope 'defy all odds' story for Jon, and killed the 'North Remembers' plot; they also got to throw in a little rape into Sansa's journey because in their minds, that's the only way women 'grow' . 

Pretty much. Though I think Sansa's 'arc of empowerment' along with all the girl power this season came about because of all they backlash they got for her rape last season.

I will also say that show Jon does not resemble in the slightest the book version. Whatever makes Jon who he is in the books is absent on the show. His defining relationships in the books, relationships that direct his story are absent on the show. Arya makes him break his NW vows, Ghost makes him remember his oaths to the Old Gods. On the show he does not even ask after Arya and Ghost is almost non-existent. In the books, he teaches Stannis how to attack the Boltons.  He has a keen understanding of the North. He negotiates with Wildlings (Much harder in the books : He has to take child hostages), Stannis, Iron Bank. He plays the game - By marrying Alys to the Thenn, he successfully undermines her scheming uncle and sends word to Stannis. He studies and experiments : puts dead people in the ice cells to see how they become wights. He plans to build greenhouses. He keeps an eye on food stores. Jon was a good diplomat and administrator. He was also an average warrior and not that great a leader. He was uncharismatic and unable to win over a number of the brothers with his arguments. One of the reasons I think Dany and Jon would make a good team is that Dany can provide the charisma and leadership, while Jon takes care of diplomacy and administration.

Nothing of the above is seen in show Jon. They made him into something he is not, a great fighter and leader, and stripped him of everything that defined the character in the books.

His season 6 story arc was atrocious. At least Sansa got to confront LF and her rape. At least, after living with LF and Ramsay, she knows how these two think. What has Jon learned after getting betrayed by his brothers? Apparently nothing because he is still an idiot. What are the consequences of getting to live again? Apparently only becoming more mopey and stupid. The minute Sansa got to the wall in episode 4, Jon became a secondary character in his own plot and the focus moved to Sansa. All Jon did was stand around grumpily. Viewers are right when they say that, on the show, Jon really did not earn the title of KITN.  He earned the loyalty of the Wildlings and Lyanna joined because of LC Mormont. But what about the other houses? Jon had to become KITN (Because that's what happens in the books) but they also had to make Sansa a player and give Davos something to do as well. The result is messy characterization for both Jon and Sansa.

And it's not just these two. Arya's entire FM plot was badly done, Dany's been reduced to just making speeches, Tyrion to drinking and making jokes. Bran was used only to show us the past.

The only character with a decently written arc is Cersei. Headey's acting also lends humanity to the character. I like show Cersei more than her book version. Most of the other main characters are lesser versions of their book counterparts. Though show Sansa seems to be far ahead of book Sansa in her understanding of LF and how he works.

Edited July 8, 2016 by anamika