S04.E13: Toast Can't Never Be Bread Again

[The Mighty Peanut]

Caputo is weak-willed and ineffectual, no argument there, but what else could he have done in that press conference (and the events leading up to it)? I felt that he tried his best to work with the MCC but ALL of his proposals were rejected or twisted into something he never wanted nor intended--like free grounds maintenance under the pretense of vocational training. IMO his big mistake (and it's huge) was not calling the cops the moment the body was found. But that didn't happen, and I applaud his refusal to paint the most humane guard in the prison as a maniac who should rot in jail on a manslaughter charge. Was there anything he could have said that would have addressed the truth of the situation without inciting a riot? Would saying Poussey's name have helped? 

I love Bayley. His remorse was so incredibly apparent. He will never get over this. Such a contrast to the sociopaths we've seen this season (in both brown and blue).

Edited June 21, 2016 by The Mighty Peanut

[JessePinkman]

Yeah, I don't think Poussey turning to the camera in the final scene was her in the afterlife, it was just the show breaking the fourth wall for maximum effect. And boy did it fucking work. I've re-watched that scene too many times to count now. It's such a gut punch.

[Pixel]

10 minutes ago, JessePinkman said:

Yeah, I don't think Poussey turning to the camera in the final scene was her in the afterlife, it was just the show breaking the fourth wall for maximum effect. And boy did it fucking work. I've re-watched that scene too many times to count now. It's such a gut punch.

At first I thought it was the afterlife, because the one woman in the club looked like Linda, and the Whitney Houston drag queen looked a bit like Sophia, but ultimately I decided it was not.

[DianeDobbler]

I guess it goes without saying that if Poussey weren't PoC, she wouldn't have gotten a prison sentence at all. This show really plays fast and loose with the hierarchy of systems. For example, I think Poussey got beaten pretty badly by Crazy Eyes in the 2nd? season. If that came to the attention of her family, that would be bad news.

While the insane "riot" that got Poussey killed was a clusterfuck, I was pretty resentful of Crazy Eyes repeatedly, at full weight, throwing herself atop Bailey, who had Poussey by the neck. By his facial expression, I think we were meant to believe he wasn't mindful of how he was holding her down, and was more focused on trying to get Crazy Eyes off him. I think Suzanne constantly throwing herself, with a lot of weight and force, on top of a guy who was on top of a very tiny human being is what killed Poussey, and if she hadn't been constantly doing that, Poussey would be alive.

[SevenStars]

1 hour ago, JessePinkman said:

Yeah, I don't think Poussey turning to the camera in the final scene was her in the afterlife, it was just the show breaking the fourth wall for maximum effect. And boy did it fucking work. I've re-watched that scene too many times to count now. It's such a gut punch.

I agree and like you, I have re-watched this scene more time than I can count.

[Andromeda]

3 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

I guess it goes without saying that if Poussey weren't PoC, she wouldn't have gotten a prison sentence at all. This show really plays fast and loose with the hierarchy of systems. For example, I think Poussey got beaten pretty badly by Crazy Eyes in the 2nd? season. If that came to the attention of her family, that would be bad news.

While the insane "riot" that got Poussey killed was a clusterfuck, I was pretty resentful of Crazy Eyes repeatedly, at full weight, throwing herself atop Bailey, who had Poussey by the neck. By his facial expression, I think we were meant to believe he wasn't mindful of how he was holding her down, and was more focused on trying to get Crazy Eyes off him. I think Suzanne constantly throwing herself, with a lot of weight and force, on top of a guy who was on top of a very tiny human being is what killed Poussey, and if she hadn't been constantly doing that, Poussey would be alive.

Exactly. I have no sympathy for Crazy Eyes feeling guilty. She SHOULD feel guilty! More than 300 pounds were being pressed into Poussey because of Crazy Eyes acting like an idiot. It's too bad, because usually I like Crazy Eyes, but she's not so crazy she couldn't see what effect her actions had. At least she should be able to figure that out!

I thought at first Poussey would end up with a broken back, like the victim in Baltimore received when he was arrested (and then died).

Edited June 21, 2016 by Andromeda

[The Mighty Peanut]

IMO Suzanne was more responsible for Poussey's death than Bayley was, albeit unintentionally. Bayley was just trying to subdue her--yes, he was untrained, but he wasn't the type of person to use too much force. Suzanne attacked him; he panicked and lost sight of how tight his grip/knee was, and Suzanne was like a pile driver adding extra weight and impact. If they're going to refuse to give her the kind of treatment she needs (which is tragic) she should have been reclassified to a higher security environment a long time ago. Suzanne + highly stressful environment + trigger = blind rage accompanied by violent assault. There have been too many incidents to ignore. The bigger picture, of course, is that the prison industrial complex is responsible for Poussey's death for a multitude of reasons. But when it comes to what literally caused Poussey to suffocate and die....I'd go with Suzanne's meltdown even knowing it was Bayley's boot on her back. YMMV.

Edited June 22, 2016 by The Mighty Peanut

[junemeatcleaver]

The only one at fault for Poussey's death, imo, is the asshole guard who unnecessarily escalated the situation.  Without that you wouldn't have Suzanne jumping on "poor sad Woobie" guard or Woobie guard pressing his leg into a petite woman's back.  Shit, it was the guards' fault for agitating Suzanne in the first place by forcing her to beat up another inmate which probably led her to being more aggressive during the protest.

[JessePinkman]

2 hours ago, Andromeda said:

Exactly. I have no sympathy for Crazy Eyes feeling guilty. She SHOULD feel guilty! More than 300 pounds were being pressed into Poussey because of Crazy Eyes acting like an idiot. It's too bad, because usually I like Crazy Eyes, but she's not so crazy she couldn't see what effect her actions had. At least she should be able to figure that out!

But she suffers from a mental illness, when she's manic she literally can't control her actions. She's not simply "crazy", she's legitimately unwell. She wasn't "acting like an idiot".

There were a myriad of people ultimately responsible for Poussey's death but the fact is that only one of the people involved had their knee on her back.

[Aja]

5 minutes ago, JessePinkman said:

But she suffers from a mental illness, when she's manic she literally can't control her actions. She's not simply "crazy", she's legitimately unwell. She wasn't "acting like an idiot".

There were a myriad of people ultimately responsible for Poussey's death but the fact is that only one of the people involved had their knee on her back.

I agree. There was no good reason for Poussey to be restrained in the first place. They were peacefully protesting by standing on the tables--I don't think any of the prisoners wanted a riot or a fight, that was the whole point. The guards decided to start manhandling everyone and causing chaos.  I understand why the other girls don't blame Suzanne.

[Andromeda]

2 hours ago, JessePinkman said:

But she suffers from a mental illness, when she's manic she literally can't control her actions. She's not simply "crazy", she's legitimately unwell. She wasn't "acting like an idiot".

There were a myriad of people ultimately responsible for Poussey's death but the fact is that only one of the people involved had their knee on her back.

OK, you're right. I am just so, so upset about Poussey, I'm blaming everyone and everything in an "if only" way. I agree with the idea that the recent fight that was forced on Suzanne by the nasty sadistic guards caused her to go over the edge this time, too.

[DianeDobbler]

I think it was just being said that the "literal" (if not moral) cause of Poussey's death was Suzanne driving her body into Bailey. I don't think the knee in Poussey's back killed her - it was his fingers at the side of her neck. You could see the knuckles getting white the longer Suzanne's assault went on.

Still, Suzanne beat the crap out of Poussey when she was following V. I think the show needs a little clarity about exactly what kind of prison dysfunction is it examining. I don't believe it's the minimum security prisons that suffer from massive overcrowding, numerous covered-up deaths, rapes, near-mortal beatings of inmates by other inmates, numerous near-death assaults on inmates, riots - and yet lax enough for inmates to hang out in greenhouses by themselves for hours.  (With maybe one guard listening to an ipad - but seriously. He stayed like that during all the sawing and cutting? Never got up, stretched, moseyed around?).  Or crawl into each other's bunks to fuck. This (Litchfield) is not the prison where they'd send a Martha Stewart/Paula Dean hybrid. The prison (Alderson) that housed Martha Stewart probably just loved that she exited wearing a poncho crocheted by an inmate and had a lot of constructive stuff to report about her stay.

There are a lot of restrictions in minimum security from what I've read, and a social division where white collar sticks with/helps out white collar, and drugs sticks with/helps out drugs, but not this absolute soup of people who did some mild time (and didn't even get the sentence amped up - that's what's on their record, some mild-ish crime), and people who did whatever horror Suzanne's would-be romantic interest may have committed. There's people like Soso, and there's people like Lolly, who can kick someone to death? It's starting to bug me. Figure out what prison you are. It's like they want the freedoms of Alderson with the oppression and assault and death rate of the U.S. Penitentiary or a supermax prison. Hell, I just googled "minimum security women's prisons" and some have in-room tvs and in-room toilets (not some dorm-style bathroom). The campus and general freedoms of Litchfield are minimum security.  The guards, the overstuffing, the building a new in-campus facility (on the MINIMUM SECURITY campus!) to overcrowd it further, the bathrooms, the food/cafeteria situation, the backgrounds, history and behaviors of many of the inmates - maximum security. The overcrowding storyline is, to me, bogus, because that's not a minimum security prison issue. For the reason that minimum security prisoners have short sentences. It's the max, where people are there for years, with more incoming, that gets stuffed.

And then added to which with Litchfield, throw in people who wouldn't be in there at all - or at least never remain there. And Suzanne is one of those.

Edited June 22, 2016 by DianeDobbler

[Andromeda]

1 hour ago, DianeDobbler said:

I think it was just being said that the "literal" (if not moral) cause of Poussey's death was Suzanne driving her body into Bailey. I don't think the knee in Poussey's back killed her - it was his fingers at the side of her neck. You could see the knuckles getting white the longer Suzanne's assault went on.

Still, Suzanne beat the crap out of Poussey when she was following V. I think the show needs a little clarity about exactly what kind of prison dysfunction is it examining? Because I don't believe it's the minimum security prisons that suffer from massive overcrowding, numerous covered-up deaths and near-mortal beatings of inmates by other inmates, numerous near-death assaults on inmates, riots, and yet lax enough for inmates to hang out in greenhouses by themselves for hours.  (With maybe one guard listening to an ipad - but seriously. He stayed like that during all the sawing and cutting? Never got up, stretched, moseyed around?).  Or crawl into each other's bunks to fuck. This (Litchfield) is not the prison where they'd send a Martha Stewart/Paula Dean hybrid. The prison (Alderson) that housed Martha Stewart probably just loved that she exited wearing a poncho crocheted by an inmate and had a lot of constructive stuff to report about her stay. There are a lot of restrictions in minimum security from what I've read, and a social division where white collar sticks with/helps out white collar, and drugs sticks with/helps out drugs, but not this absolute soup of people who did some mild time (and didn't even get the sentence amped up - that's what's on their record, some mild-ish crime), and people who did whatever horror Suzanne's would-be romantic interest may have committed. There's people like Soso, and there's people like Lolly, who can kick someone to death? It's starting to bug me. Figure out what prison you are. It's like they want the freedoms of Alderson with the oppression and assault and death rate of the U.S. Penitentiary or a supermax prison. Hell, I just googled "minimum security women's prisons" and some have in-room tvs and in-room toilets (not some dorm-style bathroom). The campus and general freedoms of Litchfield are minimum security.  The guards, the overstuffing, the building a new in-campus facility (on the MINIMUM SECURITY campus!) to overcrowd it further, the bathrooms, the food/cafeteria situation, the backgrounds, history and behaviors of many of the inmates - maximum security. The overcrowding storyline is, to me bogus, because that's not a minimum security prison issue. For the reason that minimum security prisoners have short sentences. It's the max, where people who are there for years, with more incoming, that get stuffed.

And then added to which with Litchfield, throw in people who wouldn't be in there at all - or at least never remain there. And Suzanne is one of those.

I don't get how this is minimum security, either, with so many murderers around. It's always seemed odd to me, when there are women there who murdered and chopped up five people (how is Red there, and not in SuperMax? Or was she granted minimum security for good behavior after a number of years at Supermax?)

I also wasn't sure about Pescatelli (sp?) being able to add 3 to 5 years onto an inmate's sentence. Is that allowed? Wouldn't there be an official sentencing by a judge for another crime, or do inmates not get the fair trial treatment once in custody?

The show Wentworth has private rooms with toilets and sinks and TVs for every inmate, and it's an Australian maximum security prison. Compared to Litchfield, it's a palace.

There should be more of a revolving door, with people leaving and entering each week, because the sentences are so much shorter in minimum security. AND you're right, the guards are really bad and never around!

Both Suzanne and Lolly should have been in Psych, and I would think there were better sections of Psych for the more controllable, normal(ish) patients like Lolly and Suzanne so that it's not like a horrific fate. I don't know about how they handle that in the real world these days. We used to have state psych hospitals, until Reagan got rid of them and dumped people on the street.

I never understood Piper wanting to run an illegal panty business anyway, when she had only a 15-month sentence. That's nothing in the scheme of things. Keep your nose clean, and stay calm, and then get out (like Martha Stewart did).

Edited June 22, 2016 by Andromeda

[EvilApplesauce]

ITA with the sentiment that Crazy Eyes shouldn't be in Litchfield. Why has she not been transferred to psych like Lolly?? It's horrible and sort of long-term foreshadowing that Crazy Eyes beat Poussey up in season 2, then inadvertently caused Poussey's death this season, and yet everybody continues to treat Crazy Eyes with kid gloves. I'm sorry but Suzanne is violent with a hair-trigger fuse, plus this season we found out that she kidnapped a child and frightened him to the point of probably killing him (assuming that the fall was fatal), so how much of a pattern needs to be established before people wake up and put her where she can be properly treated?? To think that Suzanne called Maureen the "crazier" half, when Suzanne nearly took Maureen's life, too! Of course that was instigated by the COs and Maureen to some extent, but I guess my point is that Crazy Eyes has no business being in gen pop.

I liken Poussey's death to Trisha in season 1, in terms of how wrong it feels. Trish was also murdered by a CO, depending on how you look at Pornstache's involvement, and Trish was generally an innocent, likeable and harmless character. Those are the only 2 character deaths that made me cry on this show :'( Rest in perfect peace, Poussey. The way that her body was left in the cafeteria for hours, and then the sight of the body bag being taken out of the building ... I can't. I hope that Poussey's father becomes a main character next season and he brings hell to MCC. I think the writers got the ball rolling with Sophia's ex-wife, but Poussey's father could have a serious impact on the story.

"They didn't even say her name" threw me back to the horrible death of Sandra Bland.

It was actually a relief to see Fig and Caputo reunite, and to be honest I want all of the former COs back, including my boo Bennett before the writers turned him into a weasel. Healy's better off getting treatment, though. I can do with less to no more of Nichols and Janae. All of the season 4 white supremacists can disappear. The new Muslim woman doesn't do much and she can go, too. Certain characters that have been there since season 1 need to be featured more often, like Mei Chang and the old women gang. What does Piper actually do these days besides stick her nose in other people's storylines? Why don't we see her family anymore (except for a gratuitous call to Cal this season)? I almost forget that she's the main character and I'm supposed to care about what prison is doing to her psyche and life after she gets out.

[MaryTylerMoore]

7 hours ago, The Mighty Peanut said:

Bayley was just trying to subdue her--yes, he was untrained, but he wasn't the type of person to use too much force.

There are many ways to subdue a person without putting your knee on their back and to put the blame on crazy and less so on Bayley is utter bullshit. The flashbacks showed he's always been a fuck up. In this particular instance it cost someone their life. Ill-trained or not common sense says if you're kneeling and someone is attacking you from above stand the fuck up. I refuse to put the blame anywhere but squarely on the person in the uniform. I am sick of people being absolved of bad behavior and idiocy.

[DianeDobbler]

No, a prison guard can't add time to an inmate's sentence. They CAN write a report, that, if believed by the parole board, can add time to your sentence. But again, how often does this happen in minimum security?

[Eyes High]

I'm guessing they had to be very careful filming Poussey's death scene in order to ensure that the actress didn't get hurt, which is why Bayley's actor didn't actually clamp down on her neck and instead clutched her shoulder, which led to confusion about whether Poussey was choked out by his hand on her neck or whether it was the knee on the back that killed her.

I didn't get why Bayley had to put Poussey on the ground to restrain her in a very dangerous position. It seemed like everything followed from that decision.

[gryphon]

Norma singing to Soso killed. me.  All the grief and anguish is still killing me.  P was my favourite.  Fuck off Caputo.   Put a bullet in him, Daya.  

[RCharter]

5 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

Hell, I just googled "minimum security women's prisons" and some have in-room tvs and in-room toilets (not some dorm-style bathroom). The campus and general freedoms of Litchfield are minimum security.  The guards, the overstuffing, the building a new in-campus facility (on the MINIMUM SECURITY campus!) to overcrowd it further, the bathrooms, the food/cafeteria situation, the backgrounds, history and behaviors of many of the inmates - maximum security. The overcrowding storyline is, to me, bogus, because that's not a minimum security prison issue. For the reason that minimum security prisoners have short sentences. It's the max, where people are there for years, with more incoming, that gets stuffed.

And then added to which with Litchfield, throw in people who wouldn't be in there at all - or at least never remain there. And Suzanne is one of those.

I actually toured a federal facility....and if I HAD to do prison time.....I would definitely want to do it at a federal facility.

They had like 2-3 large flat screen TVs in each pod, and you could get a receiver and headphones, so it wasn't noisy.

They had workout equipment, like bikes and treadmills and an elliptical.

The rooms were small, but they weren't teeny, tiny.

There were attached basketball courts.

There were computers that were equipped with internet (and I'm assuming that a lot of sites were blocked)

The worst part though was that it did smell damp and stuffy inside, like socks and old air.  

[RCharter]

I think the reason that Suzanne hasn't been sent to psych is twofold: a) she isn't as traditionally "crazy" as Lolly is, Lolly is probably schizophrenic, but Suzanne maybe has autism and a personality disorder (I'm no psychologist, but those words sound right), and b) because she has a community of people who care and watch out for her and keep her in check.

Lolly does not have that.  She had Alex, who barely cared and two other people that pretty much wanted to kill her.  Then she had Healy, but he is suffocating, and he isn't a friend, he is a controller.  I don't even know that Alex/Piper/Nicky even tried to bring Lolly into their "family" and Lolly legitimately saved Alex's life.  I'm not sure how much a caring community would help Lolly, but it seems like she mostly hears voices when she is alone or isn't being engaged by someone talking to her.  Heck, if anyone remotely cared for her, they might have been able to talk to Healy about getting her medication  (making sure she took it) and keeping her in general population because they would watch her.  

[DianeDobbler]

Her community doesn't keep Suzanne in check. In the chronological year over which this show has taken place, she beat Poussey to a pulp. Her inability to control herself in meltdown, such as when she repeatedly hurled herself onto Bailey, pile driving him into Poussey, was a major contributor to Poussey's death. Although Bailey (and the prison) is responsible for it, that was still something Suzanne did because she's unable to control herself, and it did contribute to Poussey's death. We wouldn't hold an inconveniently placed inanimate object that contributed to Poussey's death RESPONSIBLE, but we'd recognize it shouldn't be there (bad example, but just making a point between contributing factors and responsibility). Besides, anyone who does that under stress/duress (pile drives themselves into another person, beats someone else to a bloody pulp) doesn't belong in general population. 

Besides, I don't think a community of prisoners keeping someone in check is meant to be part of the rationale for keeping a dangerous person in the general population. "Oh, she has friends." especially when they don't actually do that.

When I googled minimum security prisons in the U.S., I also saw medium security prisons, and they, too, had more reasonable set ups than we see on Orange is the New Black (for example, a couple had small tvs in the room). The rooms are like dorm rooms, not huge warehouses divided into cinderblock cubicles.

There's a white collar guy (forgot his name) who talked about his experience in minimum. He couldn't have a cell phone, and internet was restricted to the library. But the kitchen and cooking situation was never the crap we see on Orange is the New Block - a minimum security prison isn't where a corporation would try to make money by squeezing the nickel. Hell, it's probably not an investment an MCC would make, due to the fact that there's not enough population and the fact that it's MINIMUM means it has to meet some of the requirements of minimum, I'd imagine, or people's lawyers would be heard from big time.

I also think it's absolutely ridiculous that a minimum security prison has SEG. I don't think so. Or a maximum security just down the hill.

[RCharter]

8 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I'm guessing they had to be very careful filming Poussey's death scene in order to ensure that the actress didn't get hurt, which is why Bayley's actor didn't actually clamp down on her neck and instead clutched her shoulder, which led to confusion about whether Poussey was choked out by his hand on her neck or whether it was the knee on the back that killed her.

I didn't get why Bayley had to put Poussey on the ground to restrain her in a very dangerous position. It seemed like everything followed from that decision.

He's never been trained, instead of doing what was right to restrain someone he probably did whatever he had seen on TV or what he had seen other guards do.

I think if you want to have an environment with constant restraint, you should teach people how to do it correctly and you should make sure you have enough staff on hand to deal with any situation.  There should be training, drills, and practice.  I watch LockUp, and on a lot of them they will show the training that guards go through before they start.

And even on Lock Up, they will wait until they have enough staff to deal with anything.  How you don't plan for another prisoner to get involved when you're restraining one....in a room full of prisoners having a protest is silly.  How to deal with 2 inmates v. 1 guard should be standard because the prisoners outnumber the guards.

I would think Mr. Piscatella, he of all the rules and demanding order and control would have reveled in the opportunity to "train" officers.

[The Mighty Peanut]

On 6/21/2016 at 11:35 PM, MaryTylerMoore said:

There are many ways to subdue a person without putting your knee on their back and to put the blame on crazy and less so on Bayley is utter bullshit. The flashbacks showed he's always been a fuck up. In this particular instance it cost someone their life. Ill-trained or not common sense says if you're kneeling and someone is attacking you from above stand the fuck up. I refuse to put the blame anywhere but squarely on the person in the uniform. I am sick of people being absolved of bad behavior and idiocy.

I respectfully disagree that it's utter bullshit. I'm not trying to excuse Bayley....you're right, at the end of the day his boot was on her back, his hands were on her neck, and she died. I don't absolve him of her death because if he wanted to be a CO he should have thought it out first, and he didn't. At the same time, I can acknowledge that this was a terrible accident that he absolutely didn't intend and that he will carry the guilt for the rest of his life. IMO this sets him apart from, for example, someone like Coates who took advantage of his situation, raped somebody, and only felt bad about it when it conflicted with his perception of himself as a nice guy. Bayley saw Poussey as a person, not an ape out of its cage. I blame him for being the metaphorical knife that killed Poussey. I blame Suzanne for driving the knife in. I blame the corrupt COs for treating their jobs like they're running a concentration camp. I blame Caputo for being ineffectual. I blame the MCC for taking away all the means to run a safe prison and then being surprised it's dangerous. I blame the prison industrial complex for years and years of corruption. I blame society for their deeply held belief that "doing the crime means doing the time" even when the crime is really pretty small and the time involves being constantly at risk of being assaulted and raped, used for unpaid/unregulated manual labor, housed next to toxic lakes, put in solitary confinement for the non-criminal matter of gender identity, being refused access to healthcare, being left to die when the healthcare you do get becomes too expensive, or let back out to rot on the streets via "compassionate release" when you become an inconvenience.

All of those things together murdered Poussey. The boot was just a symbol.

Edited June 23, 2016 by The Mighty Peanut

[RCharter]

^^ deep

[Pixel]

Not to mention - for Poussey's crime (what we do know of it), she probably should have already been released anyway, not still there to be killed. Nobody in that place had better behavior than her, except maybe for Yoga Jones and Sister, but those two don't belong there either. All three of them should have been released by now.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Pixel

[DianeDobbler]

I side eye the entire concept of a minimum security prison being part of the "prison industrial complex" - which is what Orange is the New Black is attempting to demonstrate. It's not minimum security that is subject to profiteering. That's a problem with the show.

Another problem with the show, unrelated to Poussey, is Coates. Rapists and date rapists and acquaintance rapists aren't cookie cutter, but they're not people who make a one-off bad mistake, reflect, feel badly, and resolve not to do it again. The deal with Coates is fantasy, wish fulfillment, and irresponsible. A guy who behaved as he behaved with Pennsatucky before and after the rape doesn't skew with a guy who'd say "I wish I'd treated you better and our first time had been genuine" - and means it. This just plays into myths about rapists as nice guys or well meaning guys who had a bad day or drank too much or whatever. I don't know where they're going with this. I like the actor. I remember the actor appeared to be a little pissed off when they made Coates a rapist, and I remember Tarin Manning (Pennsatucky) thought they had good chemistry, but this is not a responsible direction for this storyline. It's harmful.

[Petunia13]

On June 19, 2016 at 8:22 PM, Megan said:

Did Poussey's GENERAL father allow her to serve time to teach her a lesson? There is no way he lets her death go especially if that's the case.. and he'll have serious back up.

This

[Aja]

1 hour ago, DianeDobbler said:

I side eye the entire concept of a minimum security prison being part of the "prison industrial complex" - which is what Orange is the New Black is attempting to demonstrate. It's not minimum security that is subject to profiteering. That's a problem with the show.

Another problem with the show, unrelated to Poussey, is Coates. Rapists and date rapists and acquaintance rapists aren't cookie cutter, but they're not people who make a one-off bad mistake, reflect, feel badly, and resolve not to do it again. The deal with Coates is fantasy, wish fulfillment, and irresponsible. A guy who behaved as he behaved with Pennsatucky before and after the rape doesn't skew with a guy who'd say "I wish I'd treated you better and our first time had been genuine" - and means it. This just plays into myths about rapists as nice guys or well meaning guys who had a bad day or drank too much or whatever. I don't know where they're going with this. I like the actor. I remember the actor appeared to be a little pissed off when they made Coates a rapist, and I remember Tarin Manning (Pennsatucky) thought they had good chemistry, but this is not a responsible direction for this storyline. It's harmful.

As someone who has had a relationship with a physically abusive person, I reflected on this and ended up liking the way they handled Coates in the end. I think he's every bit a typical abuser. Everyone thought--THINKS, to this day--that my ex is a wonderful, smart, generous, sensitive, nice person. That's what ends up being so confusing. Like Coates, my ex was not a storybook villain and was capable of being compassionate and kind, even with me. The problem with Coates, and the problem with my ex, is that they both see the object of their affection as just that--an object. That's where the sickness or disconnect or whatever it is comes into play. We're an object that belongs to the person based on the intensity of their own feelings. And Coates, like my ex, does not see that as any kind of problem. I think Doggett realized that when he shoved her up against the wall and essentially said "I must really like you because I'm not raping you right now." It's all tied in to the fact that HE felt strongly about HER, so therefore SHE kinda "brought it on herself." He's not a sociopathic, compulsive sex offender, he didn't go after Ramos like Boo and Doggett thought he would. He's one of those people who, as soon as he has feelings for someone, feels that he owns them and wants to control them. The "good guy who just made a mistake" was an extremely appealing fantasty for Doggett, but I felt like the show made it clear that it was a fantasy, and not the reality. I felt Doggett's confusion, how much she wanted to believe that he was a good person and, in the end, how crushed she was that Boo was right.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Aja

[DianeDobbler]

I saw OJ: Made in America last week (excellent). He's in jail because he and a bunch of Keystone Cops pals decided that his old agent had OJ's stuff - mostly memorabilia. These arthritic old fogies did a stick up, including "nobody leave this room." That ("Nobody leave this room") was the basis for the kidnapping charge.

The documentary is quite convinced OJ butchered his ex-wife Nicole, and Ron Goldman, and was wrongly acquitted. And is also convinced that the max, max, MAXIMUM sentence for the stick-up would, in almost anyone else's case, be two years (if jail time at all, and not probation), but this was obvious payback (like Al Capone going to prison for taxes), and the system made the massive sentence stick, and the massive sentence was bogus, and he's not in minimum. There's plenty of people in Litchfield who did some kind of half-assed, one off crime like a bumbling stick up. They'd have been plead down, particularly if they weren't PoC, or if the family had money or influence. Hard cases are not in minimum. We wouldn't get a "V" in minimum. V came in and acted like she was just sentenced to another 20 years. She can't have been sentenced to more than two, and with good behavior her butt would have been out of there sooner (setting aside that with V's history, I suspect what she did to get back in prison was not a minimum facility-type offense). Instead V sets about trying to coordinate a posse as if she's settling in for a decade. Made no sense.

 

ETA, thanks Aja. What actually happened is I must have ff thru the final Doggett/Coates scene. I thought their last scene was a cliffhanger, when she kissed him. THAT's what bugged me. Knowing that Coates was shown to be the sort of person you described in your post was important to me, and I'm happy OITNB did it.

Edited June 22, 2016 by DianeDobbler

[A oitnb fan]

On 6/19/2016 at 1:16 PM, Ceindreadh said:

Trespassing and possession - but only a small amount of drugs.  Honestly, it sounded like something that should have just gotten her probation if she'd had a half-decent lawyer. 

The paralleling of her and the guard that killed her was constant throughout the episode. His backstory had him doing the exact same thing (trespassing and possession at the water tower) and they even had them pass each other in the streets of NY in her backstory - what seemed like her last free day on earth. It all truly heightened the tragedy of the event and the themes of racism and sexism that the show always explores.

[hacman00]

On 6/19/2016 at 10:18 AM, WhosThatGirl said:

I hate whatever the hell they are doing with Pennsatucky and Coates. I don't.. understand? Look, I sort of understand how Coates is now just  realizing what he did and he feels remorseful but like Boo, I'm just like, "he feels bad, poor him!", Penn owes nothing to him, she doesn't need to make him feel better. 

Penn said it herself she forgave him for herself so she could feel better by not holding on to negative feelings.

[gryphon]

Quote

and they even had them pass each other in the streets of NY in her backstory

I totally missed this!  But I don't have the heart to watch it again...ripped me to shreds. 

[CloverTracey]

Egad, just saw death of poussey.  And attempted cover up by pisca---whatever.  So. Damn. Sad.    Do not even know what happens  next but needs to express rage at poussey's exit, rage at pisca whatever rage at caputo  and yeah rage at Hayley.  Fervently hope revenge/justice ensues.  I will take 2 out of three takedowns.

[Aja]

3 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

ETA, thanks Aja. What actually happened is I must have ff thru the final Doggett/Coates scene. I thought their last scene was a cliffhanger, when she kissed him. THAT's what bugged me. Knowing that Coates was shown to be the sort of person you described in your post was important to me, and I'm happy OITNB did it.

Oh, I was right there with you. When she kissed him, I was verrrrrrrrrrry uncomfortable. I was thinking "Uh, SERIOUSLY?  Where exactly are they going with this?" In the end, though, I really respected what the writers did. Very true-to-life in terms of how abusers think and act, and how victims (particularly ones like Doggett who have been more or less abused by everyone their entire lives) react. I think she bought what Boo was telling her during season 3 on an intellectual level, but she really didn't internalize it and come to terms with the fact that he's an abusive asshole until she confronted it herself, directly. I re-watched it and thought about it because it's also important to me, to the extent that I might have been compelled to write an angry letter had I come away feeling like the show was truly pushing the "he's changed for the better!" angle  (which would have been TOTALLY insane and shocking coming from a group of intelligent writers.) 

As a contrast, the way Nicky forced herself on Lorna a couple of times, even after Lorna made it absolutely clear that she now considers herself a faithful wife, made me way more uncomfortable. 

Edited June 22, 2016 by Aja

[WhosThatGirl]

4 minutes ago, Aja said:

Oh, I was right there with you. When she kissed him, I was verrrrrrrrrrry uncomfortable. I was thinking "Uh, SERIOUSLY?  Where exactly are they going with this?" In the end, though, I really respected what the writers did. Very true-to-life in terms of how abusers think and act, and how victims (particularly ones like Doggett who have been more or less abused by everyone their entire lives) react. I re-watched it and thought about it because it's also important to me, to the extent that I might have been compelled to write an angry letter had I come away feeling like the show was truly pushing the "he's changed for the better!" angle  (which would have been TOTALLY insane and shocking coming from a group of intelligent writers.) 

As a contrast, the way Nicky forced herself on Lorna a couple of times, even after Lorna made it absolutely clear that she now considers herself a faithful wife, made me way more uncomfortable. 

All of this. And the Nicky thing is really uncomfortable and I normally like Nicky but wow. The scene by the gates was truly sad when she was baiting  Lorna, someone who she cares about. 

I still hate the Coates/Penn thing, mostly because of the kiss thing and I get why she forgave him but she doesn't owe anything else other than that to him in my opinion. 

[tvsoothesthespirit]

What is bugging me most is not knowing how much time has passed. I know that's because they've backed themselves into a corner with Piper's short sentence but it still bothers me. I don't see why they can't have a throw away line or even show something on the screen about the amount of time. Maybe they're trying to show that time has no meaning in prison.

One good thing about all this is that it makes me do some research about minimum sentencing, privatization of prisons, etc.  Interesting to find out that there are 13 private prisons in the Federal system and at least one of them is minimum security.  The flier for it makes it look like a summer camp: http://www.mtctrains.com/sites/default/files/Taft_Fact_Sheet.pdf

The entire thing reeks of corporate spin. I wonder about those "780 service hours provided to the community."

Poussey's murder was horrible and hit me really hard. In my opinion (aside from the prison system generally), Caputo is at fault. Piscatello is his fault, the lack of sanitary supplies, the overcrowding -- all of the "small" incidents that put pressure on the inmates, the press conference is a result of the devil's bargain he made with MCC. Caputo wants to believe he's a good person. In the abstract, he cares about the inmates. I felt like I really understood him when he didn't call the police. His fear about what would happen to him far outweighed what was the right thing to do.

[CloverTracey]

Aaaaghhhh that last close up of poussey's....broke my heart.  Broke my heart, seriously.

[DianeDobbler]

Well, from what I've read, a minimum security prison is no summer camp, so that part is certainly corporate spin, but it's also not a lot of what OITNB pretends it is.

Just sliding this in here for those who don't know and are Samira Wiley fans, she has a new job - five episodes as the leading lady's therapist on FXX's "You're the Worst." One of the OITNB writers is writing it. Poussey really did nothing for me for 90% of her time on the show. I know the actress is Juillard-trained, but it felt as if she weren't ready for prime time. You don't have to be a massive talent, but IMO at least you need to have more chops than she showed in front of the camera (presence, or something). But anyhow, I really did like her work in Poussey's backstory, and apparently so did the "You're the Worst" writer - he cast her off her work on that.

[DianeDobbler]

I rewatched the Nicky/Lorna scene by the gate cause I blew by it the first time I watched the episode. I don't believe Nicky was baiting Lorna. She was tough loving Lorna. I think as soon as Lorna said "We're having a baby." Nicky immediately was back in the stairwell with Morello, after learning Morello was actually Christopher's stalker and not his fiance'. And how desperate Morello was, and how Morello NEW there was something was wrong with her, but didn't know how to fix it. Right away Nicky saw the crazy: "No, you're not." And then she confronted her, and pushed her, until Lorna was able to confront herself and admit she was back in the crazy. I think sex was long gone from Nicky's mind. Everybody else in that prison makes fun of Lorna, and/or ignores her when she gets on her "romantic", "aren't I lucky to have a man" jags. Nicky is the one who knows it's dangerous. Nicky knows Lorna's suffering and that Lorna can't stop herself. To me the gate was a complete callback to the stairwell. Nicky also fully accepts Lorna, and Lorna knows it. As soon as Lorna choked out that she was watching herself go crazy and couldn't stop it, some of the crazy buzz started to dissipate. And she verbally attacked Nicky with "Aren't you happy now!" and Nicky was all - come on, a drug addict liar isn't what happy looks like. She broke through Lorna's bubble. She doesn't see herself as superior to Lorna, or see Lorna as a joke, or ignore the fact that Lorna is in trouble - but she accepts her completely, definitely wants to help her because of the pain it causes Lorna - and I guess on some level, as an addict, she can relate to the utter escape from reality driving Lorna's fantasies and obsessions. I liked when the argument was over and Lorna stuck her arm through Nicky's. To me, that scene was sort of a pay it forward - Nicky being to Lorna what Red is to Nicky.

Edited June 23, 2016 by DianeDobbler

[90PercentGravity]

11 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

Another problem with the show, unrelated to Poussey, is Coates. Rapists and date rapists and acquaintance rapists aren't cookie cutter, but they're not people who make a one-off bad mistake, reflect, feel badly, and resolve not to do it again. The deal with Coates is fantasy, wish fulfillment, and irresponsible. A guy who behaved as he behaved with Pennsatucky before and after the rape doesn't skew with a guy who'd say "I wish I'd treated you better and our first time had been genuine" - and means it. This just plays into myths about rapists as nice guys or well meaning guys who had a bad day or drank too much or whatever. I don't know where they're going with this. I like the actor. I remember the actor appeared to be a little pissed off when they made Coates a rapist, and I remember Tarin Manning (Pennsatucky) thought they had good chemistry, but this is not a responsible direction for this storyline. It's harmful.

I don't think this is the car at all. He's being manipulative. His behavior at the end was very rapey and threatening, and I think Pennsatucky saw that. 

 

Poussey was arrested for trespassing and possession. I think that empty lot she was in with the improv group wad probably where it happened. So, her look at the camera was her lady moment of her normal life before the shit hit the fan. 

[hkit]

23 hours ago, EvilApplesauce said:

ITA with the sentiment that Crazy Eyes shouldn't be in Litchfield. Why has she not been transferred to psych like Lolly?? It's horrible and sort of long-term foreshadowing that Crazy Eyes beat Poussey up in season 2, then inadvertently caused Poussey's death this season, and yet everybody continues to treat Crazy Eyes with kid gloves. I'm sorry but Suzanne is violent with a hair-trigger fuse, plus this season we found out that she kidnapped a child and frightened him to the point of probably killing him (assuming that the fall was fatal), so how much of a pattern needs to be established before people wake up and put her where she can be properly treated?? To think that Suzanne called Maureen the "crazier" half, when Suzanne nearly took Maureen's life, too! Of course that was instigated by the COs and Maureen to some extent, but I guess my point is that Crazy Eyes has no business being in gen pop.

The defense of Crazy Eyes drives me bonkers. If she wasn't such a fan favorite, everyone would find her continued transgressions deplorable. I don't care if she is mentally ill, or autistic, or whatever - in a correctional facility you would hope that someone like her is separated from Gen pop.

Season 1/Season 2 cliffhanger - she knocked Piper out, unprovoked. Pennsatuckey took the heat for it, and because Piper is as disliked by fans as Crazy Eyes is loved, nobody ever brings this up. But that was some scary behavior.

Season 2 - she was Vee's muscle. She beat the crap out of poor Poussey. I remember her bullying Ms. Rosa out of her seat on demand. No doubt she would have gotten physical there too.   By this point I was fully on board the "this lady needs more supervision" train.

Season 4 she nearly killed Maureen. Yeah a guard instigated it, but Crazy Eyes lost control and would have killed her if she wasn't pulled off. How was she not in the SHU? How did the guards explain a prisoner going to med completely fucked up, but not have the aggressor even isolated from gen pop? 

I'm willing to suspend disbelief for a show that brings me enjoyment, but the treatment of Crazy Eyes is just too far outside the realm of what is logical.

[RCharter]

15 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

Her community doesn't keep Suzanne in check. In the chronological year over which this show has taken place, she beat Poussey to a pulp. Her inability to control herself in meltdown, such as when she repeatedly hurled herself onto Bailey, pile driving him into Poussey, was a major contributor to Poussey's death. Although Bailey (and the prison) is responsible for it, that was still something Suzanne did because she's unable to control herself, and it did contribute to Poussey's death. We wouldn't hold an inconveniently placed inanimate object that contributed to Poussey's death RESPONSIBLE, but we'd recognize it shouldn't be there (bad example, but just making a point between contributing factors and responsibility). Besides, anyone who does that under stress/duress (pile drives themselves into another person, beats someone else to a bloody pulp) doesn't belong in general population. 

Besides, I don't think a community of prisoners keeping someone in check is meant to be part of the rationale for keeping a dangerous person in the general population. "Oh, she has friends." especially when they don't actually do that.

When I googled minimum security prisons in the U.S., I also saw medium security prisons, and they, too, had more reasonable set ups than we see on Orange is the New Black (for example, a couple had small tvs in the room). The rooms are like dorm rooms, not huge warehouses divided into cinderblock cubicles.

There's a white collar guy (forgot his name) who talked about his experience in minimum. He couldn't have a cell phone, and internet was restricted to the library. But the kitchen and cooking situation was never the crap we see on Orange is the New Block - a minimum security prison isn't where a corporation would try to make money by squeezing the nickel. Hell, it's probably not an investment an MCC would make, due to the fact that there's not enough population and the fact that it's MINIMUM means it has to meet some of the requirements of minimum, I'd imagine, or people's lawyers would be heard from big time.

I also think it's absolutely ridiculous that a minimum security prison has SEG. I don't think so. Or a maximum security just down the hill.

Suzanne was first more of an outcast, and then she was taken in by V.  V twisted Suzanne's need for love to beat Poussay to a pulp.  There wasn't really a lack of control in that act, that was very calculated.  Mostly by V, but also by Suzanne, who saw herself as V's protection.

There was a lack of control when Suzanne launched herself at Bayley, but there wasn't really anyone in her community that was able to talk her down or care for her at the time.  Most of the time when Suzanne is getting close to the edge, there is someone around her (most often Taystee) that is able to bring her back under control.  I think its why they call her the "Suzanne whisperer."  There is no doubt in my mind that if Suzanne was left to her own devices, she would have been sent to psych much earlier because she would have acted out much earlier.  But she has her job, she has her friends, she has her community, she has her poop caper, she has her book series....and all of that has helped her stay under control most of the time.  

However, there are a lot of people that respond to stress/duress by acting out physically and it doesn't necessarily mean that they shouldn't be in gen pop, or that they belong in psych.  It just means that this is the way that they have learned to deal with stress/duress.  They are punished and then put back in general population.  

I don't think its part of the rationale, but I do think its the reason why Lolly is in psych and Suzanne isn't.

I don't think its unreasonable for a minimum security prison to have a SHU.  People act out in minimum security prisons, and they act out in maximum security prisons.  SHU is pretty much the one way these prisons have to punish inmates who offend.  You can take away commissary, and job privileges as well.  But that assumes that you have a job in prison.  At the very least, you'll want to have a SHU to keep certain people away from general population, including low level sex offenders, or LEOs that are serving time and could cause violence in general population.  It also wouldn't make much sense to say that the first time a person acted out you would just send them to a maximum or medium security prison.  There are transportation costs, reclassification costs, and other costs associated with that.  I do think that if a person in minimum security is posing an ongoing threat of violence than sure, it makes sense to send them to a higher security facility -- but as far as the administration knows Suzanne has acted violently twice.  The first was at the behest of a guard, who pretty much forced her to fight.  The second time was when bayley was on poussay (which, I think may have been triggered by seeing bayley on top of poussay the same way suzanne was on top of that girl she was fighting).  

[Ceindreadh]

I think that the problem with Suzanne is that either (a) she's responsible for her actions and needs to face the consequences- the SHU or max or whatever - or (b) she's not responsible for her actions, in which case she needs to be under some sort of proper supervision - psych ward, assisted living etc. 

Things can't or at least shouldn't stay the way they are. She's a danger to herself and the other inmates. 

[RCharter]

3 hours ago, Ceindreadh said:

I think that the problem with Suzanne is that either (a) she's responsible for her actions and needs to face the consequences- the SHU or max or whatever - or (b) she's not responsible for her actions, in which case she needs to be under some sort of proper supervision - psych ward, assisted living etc. 

Things can't or at least shouldn't stay the way they are. She's a danger to herself and the other inmates. 

I do agree that Suzanne should do some time in the SHU before she goes back to gen pop.  Because I think that would have been the appropriate  remedy for anyone who acted out or got into a physical altercation with a guard/inmate.  They would do some time in the SHU, and then be put back in gen pop.  I don't think she should have been put in the SHU for the fight with Maureen, because I think that altercation was pushed on her by a guard, and by Maureen.  If a guard is starting some fight club, inmates shouldn't be held liable when it gets out of control.

But, no one pushed her into attacking Bayley, even though it was the guards that escalated a relatively peaceful situation.  So, while I can kinda understand why she did it, she still did it.  But, since this was her first violent incident on record (I doubt anyone really reported the true nature of Maureen's injuries) I don't think it would warrant being sent to a max facility.  She didn't directly kill anyone, and she didn't prevent Bayley from taking his knee off of Poussay's back or his fingers around her throat.  It was just chaos and the man wasn't properly trained to handle the situation, he had never been through a training exercise where he had to handle two things going on at once, the proper methods of restraining an inmate.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that MCC has had a lot of inmate deaths that have been covered up, or swept under the rug.  Maybe they figure its cheaper to just keep attorneys on retainer than it is to train people and put protocols in place.  And there isn't a lot of natural sympathy for inmates who die behind bars.

[DianeDobbler]

I'm still researching, but I don't believe minimum security has SHU. People don't "act out" as Suzanne acts out. What she does is far from acting out. Solitary isn't used for plain "acting out." It's also incredibly expensive to have an inmate in SHU.

SHU is not a remedy. It is the single most psychologically damaging experience in the correctional system. SHU would exacerbate Suzanne's problems. Suzanne needs to be reclassified and transferred out of Litchfield. She's extremely dangerous.

[Kbilly]

I was getting really irate at Caputo's weakness. Call 911. Don't let those jackholes work to get their "story straight". You're always saying "they are human beings" so don't let her body lay there overnight while you catch a few z's at your desk. Contact her father. I wanted to scream--he's no better than Linda.

Horrible when Suzanne piled the books on her chest.

"Do you know the difference between pain and suffering? Pain is always there. Suffering is a choice." That was amazing.

[Aja]

3 minutes ago, Kbilly said:

I was getting really irate at Caputo's weakness. Call 911. Don't let those jackholes work to get their "story straight". You're always saying "they are human beings" so don't let her body lay there overnight while you catch a few z's at your desk. Contact her father. I wanted to scream--he's no better than Linda.

Horrible when Suzanne piled the books on her chest.

"Do you know the difference between pain and suffering? Pain is always there. Suffering is a choice." That was amazing.

All this! I, too, was practically screaming at the screen "JUST! CALL! THE! POLICE!" Poussey was already dead, and a lot of that was on his hands. The show was clever about this too...if Caputo had been a one-dimensional self-interested corporate tool, there would have been no tension. But because Caputo was portrayed as struggling between his humanity and his commitment to MCC throughout the whole season, I was biting my nails over what he was going to do until the very end. When he failed. Miserably.

[The Mighty Peanut]

On 6/22/2016 at 0:28 PM, DianeDobbler said:

There's plenty of people in Litchfield who did some kind of half-assed, one off crime like a bumbling stick up. They'd have been plead down, particularly if they weren't PoC, or if the family had money or influence. Hard cases are not in minimum. We wouldn't get a "V" in minimum. V came in and acted like she was just sentenced to another 20 years. She can't have been sentenced to more than two, and with good behavior her butt would have been out of there sooner (setting aside that with V's history, I suspect what she did to get back in prison was not a minimum facility-type offense). Instead V sets about trying to coordinate a posse as if she's settling in for a decade. Made no sense.

This has been bothering me, too. Some of the crimes we've heard about definitely fit with a minimum security sentence--mail fraud, minor possession charges, shoplifting, fleeing and eluding. Things that with a better attorney and more money would have been knocked down to fines and probation. I can accept that the older women with long sentences for violent crimes have been transferred to minimum after serving time in a higher security environment. But Doggett shot up an abortion clinic, Vee was probably in there for a high level drug offense, I'm willing to bet the skinheads have priors that would have been considered....these people should not be in Litchfield. FFS Trisha stole a cheap necklace and ran away in a panic. No way should she have been in the same environment with Vee types of people (I know she was dead by then, I'm just using that for the sake of example).

Edited June 23, 2016 by The Mighty Peanut

[RCharter]

4 hours ago, DianeDobbler said:

I'm still researching, but I don't believe minimum security has SHU. People don't "act out" as Suzanne acts out. What she does is far from acting out. Solitary isn't used for plain "acting out." It's also incredibly expensive to have an inmate in SHU.

SHU is not a remedy. It is the single most psychologically damaging experience in the correctional system. SHU would exacerbate Suzanne's problems. Suzanne needs to be reclassified and transferred out of Litchfield. She's extremely dangerous.

People "act out" violently in every type of prison environment.  Minimum security, maximum security, medium security.  SHU is at all levels because prisons need a place to isolate certain inmates that might cause havoc in gen pop.  

http://www.vera.org/sites/default/files/resources/downloads/prisons-within-prisons-segregation.pdf.  On page two of this article they do mention that segregation or SHU is used in minimum security prisons.  Solitary is used for prisoners who "act out" violently or have fights.  Its a way to punish the inmate, as well as to segregate them from the rest of the prison population.  It is expensive to have an inmate in the SHU which is why its used for a limited amount of time with an inmate, until they have cooled off, or they no longer present a current threat to the prison population.

Limited time in the SHU can be used to allow an inmate time to cool off, and it is a way to punish the inmate.  The problems with SHU are more related to using it as a long term punishment.  Or as a long term solution.  If you have an inmate who is never getting out of SHU, or is in there for 6 months, yeah, that is too long and its psychologically damaging.  But I haven't seen anything to suggest that short term use of the SHU is particularly detrimental.  Or that it is more detrimental than it is helpful.  In that it can serve as both a punishment and as a tool that can help an inmate get away from a situation that is likely to get more and more violent.

[hkit]

1 hour ago, RCharter said:

It is expensive to have an inmate in the SHU which is why its used for a limited amount of time with an inmate, until they have cooled off, or they no longer present a current threat to the prison population.

Why is that? Is there a greater guard to prisoner ratio? Is it the dedicated facilities, which reduces prison density?