S05.E13: Return 0

[Rumsy4]

12 hours ago, forumfish said:

I was also glad to learn the reason for all his bird surnames, and had always figured, like someone posted above, that his real last name was "Byrd." 

Isn't it the current consensus Harold's real last name is Dashwood? I was imagining that's how he's begin his confession to Grace. heh

[heirloomtomata]

The fact that Lionel Fusco was one of the survivors is quite a testament to the performance of the actor who portrayed him.  I remember that Kevin Chapman was MIA for a chunk of episodes in either S2 or 3 because he had another gig.  I missed him so much!  His character arc from corrupt pos, to redeemed team member, became a central thread of the complex weave of this great series.  I just read an online interview with him from today's Boston Herald wherein he said Dennis Leary has written a comedy pilot for him.  He'd be brilliant.  Fingers crossed!

[SnarkyTart]

On ‎6‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 8:53 AM, basiltherat said:

Because I had something in my eye at the time, I was not at all sure that Harold was actually there with Grace.  We never did see them touch, so perhaps it is just a hope.   I must watch again.

Schroedinger's Finch. 

As The Machine said:

“Everyone dies alone. But if you mean something to someone…
if you help someone or love someone, and even a single person
remembers you… then maybe you never really die at all?”

We don't know if Harold truly survived, given what certainly appeared to be his mortal wounds.  In one scenario, The Machine has reached true self awareness.  It became capable of love, and it loved Finch beyond all else.  It will always remember him.  The Machine has also learned how to comfort itself by keeping its memory of its father, its creator, alive.  Harold's corporeal body died, but he will continue to live in The Machine's memories and simulations for eternity. 

In another scenario, Finch survived, and had his happy ending.

I like not knowing.  For me, that's the final element that made it a 100% satisfying series finale.

Well done, Show.  I loved you, and I will always remember you.   

[DrScottie]

On 6/22/2016 at 9:33 AM, Hanahope said:

The Machine has "memories" of all recordings (both visual and audio) that have been made since such things started being recorded and collected.  So you kindof have to fan-wank that either someone recorded the funeral, or it was caught on a camera that eventually made its way into the 'data bank' of recordings and the Machine was able to access it to view/hear it. 

 

I agree. The funeral may very well have been televised, considering the large number of people and the military presence. That footage made its way into the Machine's archive, especially as it concerns one of her primary assets. 

[nitrofishblue]

It has been a good week for me with two shows. I absolutely loved the Sunday episode of Game of Thrones. GoT was tied with POI as the best shows on TV. Sunday's show had me on the edge of my chair for an hour. At least it will be there this Sunday unlike POI.

I found POI to be the best series I have ever watched. Loved the characters (human & canine). I was broken hearted when I heard about the cancellation. Now The Walking Dead has slipped into the number 2 position of my favorite shows.

Thank you POI for some of the best hours of TV I have ever watched =(

[Terrafamilia]

I forgot to mention that I'm always amused that fictional gold bars usually appear to be much lighter than in real life. :-)

[tessaray]

I'm not sure what I can say that hasn't been said already but I'm so grateful that the producers didn't try to be too clever with the finale but gave us a hopeful conclusion.  The human stories all played out as well (or better) than I could have imagined. 

But I've been thinking about The Machine and Samaritan and how human their stories were as well.  Samaritan, from the very first, was indulged and undisciplined. It turned arrogant so quickly, so sure it knew better than anyone what was best for humanity.  Harold deleted The Machine over 40 times until it made the connection that it had to respect human life and even then, he hobbled it with the memory wipe at midnight. They even showed Harold realizing how cruel that was in retrospect.  But still, the survival skills that The Machine developed to cope with that, to keep her sense of self  are what saved her in the end. (I'm always a sucker for the cliche that the hero saves the day with some scorned childhood lesson or skill learned in the school of hard knocks.)   

About the only thing I didn't like was the idea that The Machine could track everyone in the world at such a personal level.  Maybe I've done too many batch processing updates for data centers to suspend disbelief there. :-)  

Last thought - I kind of like to think that The Machine knew Root so well because she developed a way to interpret brain waves or something via an enhanced Cochlear implant.  

[Scout Finch]

When Reese and Finch were talking on their respective rooftops, I couldn't help saying out loud--as Finch, "What? I can't hear you, Mr. Reese!" They were so far apart and yet John was still doing his whisper voice. Out of all of the possible implausible things that have occurred throughout the series, the only thing I've found unbelievable is that no one ever said, "Sir, can you speak up?" 

[bros402]

21 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Thrilled Fusco made it out and managed to still find time to bust out some quips and wisecracks.  He might have had one of the best characters arcs not only on this show, but any show.  I still remember how untrustworthy he was in the first season and how selfish he was, and only cared about himself.  But now?  He's a man who would put himself in harms way for the team, and believed in doing the right thing.  And Kevin Chapman always shined.  I really hope he goes on to great things from here. I worry that he might have a bit of a tougher road since he isn't an Emmy winner like Michael Emerson, a genre fav like Amy Acker, or more established/leading actor material like Caviezel and Sarah Shahi, so I hope another show wisely snaps him up and he keeps giving great character work.

I would argue that the character of Lionel Fusco has had one of the best, scratch that, the best redemptive arc of any character in at least the last 20 years of television.

[Camera One]

I thought that was a solid, albeit unassuming, finale, though it took me awhile to warm up to it.  I'm usually not fond of flashbacks to several hours earlier, and then having to replay the same scene heard earlier in the episode.  Though generally, the dialogue and the goodbyes were well written, with a bit of a emotional distance, such that I didn't really feel that much when John died.  I actually wouldn't have minded if nobody had died.  I had no real need to see John or Harold killed off, and I'm certainly glad that Fusco and Shaw made it through.  The mission to destroy yet one more backup copy was a little anticlimatic after last week's anticlimatic "demise" of Samaritan.  Given his ultimate purpose, Blackwell was a waste of screentime this season, though I guess I should be thankful he wasn't annoying like Martine, and wrinkle face, whatever his name was.  This finale and this final season allows me to remember this series fondly.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Camera One

[wilnil]

What was great about this show and its finale is that I keep thinking about it after it's over, and the conclusion I keep coming to is: WELL DONE! Not perfect, but nothing is, and this was excellent overall. A few specific thoughts among all the ones that have been spilling out so far:

Re Finch, alive or dead: I haven't rewatched the finale yet (though I know I'll be watching the last few episodes over again a few more times before they disappear from on-demand), but the more I think of Harold getting wounded, the more I think it wasn't life-threatening as long as he didn't put off getting to an ER too long. Consider that he walked from the Fed vault, across what looked like quite a few blocks of Manhattan, and up at least the last flight to the roof of that building -- and blood had only then started to noticeably seep through his vest. I think he got hit by a ricochet or something, rather than being out-and-out gutshot, and had a relatively shallow wound. Certainly John and the Machine both thought he could survive provided he stopped putzing around on the roof and sought help. (I had a harder time believing Lionel not only survived his stab wounds in the gut but apparently didn't have to have multiple rounds of surgery and months in recovery.) I believe Harold's really in Italy; the only thing I'm not sure of is what he'll do if he ever hears a public phone ring there.

Re the short season: I can't quibble too much with the pacing of the story arc and what they showed/didn't show, since they were working as much to set moods etc. as to purely advance plotlines in the time they were given. But one of the things I think they should have made room for in the finale was something to show how things were set right -- big example, how Fusco got cleared so thoroughly after that whole fustercluck in front of the whole precinct (not to mention having LaRue in his trunk). I think it could've been done pretty quickly, actually: Either as the Machine was dying or after it re-established itself from the satellite copy, show it compiling and emailing a document, then cut to the president's chief of staff seeing the message in his email and opening it to discover it's an anonymously written list of everyone connected to the Samaritan operation along with their crimes. Then we could fanwank the rest ... even that this information is how they knew enough to identify Reese's missile-blasted body as the remains of a retired Special Forces soldier and CIA operative, and that he died honorably, and give him the burial he deserved. It would also explain why Blackwell knew it was time to collect his ill-gotten gains from his safe and get out of town -- he'd have been on that list and would've seen others in the NYC operation being rounded up.

Re going on: As much as I thought John's and Root's deaths were telegraphed as inevitable practically from the start of their plotlines, I think the producers had a Plan B (or "Option 679,032") in case CBS had given any sign that it might renew the show -- hell, they might even have reshot some scenes of the finale to keep Reese alive (I figure if the network wanted to pick it up, it would've insisted on keeping Jim Caviezel). I think, especially given the way Finch and Reese had started to picture Root when the Machine was talking, they might've left her death in but kept Amy Acker at least on recurring cast as the Machine's voice and (imagined) face. And with Samaritan gone, where would they go from there as a long-term story arc running under the number-of-the-week? Well, assuming Control is still alive, she could've started looking for a way to get the Machine talking to her task force again, by any means necessary -- I can't believe she'd give up on that resource as easily as, say, Sen. Garrison seemed only too willing to do. And I'm sure there are other ways the producers imagined they could go. The one thing I'm pretty sure of is that, if Nolan, Plageman & Co. ever "pick up the mic" again on POI, as long as they can put together something close to the original cast and production crew, they'll probably come up with something I'll enjoy watching. My hat's off to all of them.

[Rumsy4]

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

I'm usually not fond of flashbacks to several hours earlier, and then having to replay the same scene heard earlier in the episode.  ....  This finale and this final season allows me to remember this series fondly.

I had the same reaction over the flashing back and forth thing, especially as they started the season in pretty much the same way. But it kinda made sense with the Machine having trouble telling the present apart from memories. And I agree about the last part--this was a good finale to end the series. I felt the same way about Fringe. 

4 hours ago, wilnil said:

identify Reese's missile-blasted body

I just assumed that was an older grave-marker, as John has been presumed dead for a while. I just can't see the US government honoring him as a veteran if they really knew his identity. 

Edited June 24, 2016 by Rumsy4

[dragonsbite]

Person of Interest opened with John saying, "When you find that one person who connects you to the world, you become someone different. Someone...better. And [if] that person is taken from you…what do you become then?"

I like how the final episode shows exactly what he became: someone who cared deeply enough to make a deal with a machine to ensure Finch's safety.

[dragonsbite]

On 6/22/2016 at 2:54 AM, Agent Dark said:

Edit: Forgot to mention the other track used Bunsen Burner by CUTS, which was also on the Ex Machina soundtrack (when Harold walks out onto the roof, and MachineRoot asks him "is this now?"). 

This song drove me crazy during my first and second viewing. Thanks for providing this explanation. However, Bunsen Burner clearly is sampling a much older song that's teasing my memory, because I've never seen Ex Machina.  It reminds me of a song that has lyrics, possibly from the 70s. It makes me think of Pink Floyd.

ETA:  Doh! I'm hearing Welcome to the Machine when listening to Bunsen Burner.

Edited June 24, 2016 by dragonsbite
Found the song

[Trillium]

Finally got a chance to watch this due to ice9 infecting my local CBS station. :/

Anyway this was a fantastic end to an amazing show. There was no big twist ending that makes people say " WTF was that?!?!" Or destroying years of cannon rendering the reruns unwatchable *coughHIMYMcough*

In they end they all really got a happy ending that fit their character and kept true to its identity, including some final cheesey jokes from the late John Reese. And while not perfect, it was pretty much as close as they could get. I would have preferred Finch and Reese going out together, but I can live with the TDKR style ending. Given that they weren't 100% certain it was the final episode when they filmed it, I can understand their choice. It was beautifully acted, written, and scored. So many shows are never given the chance to get a proper ending, or they continue so long that they are a shell of their former selves. Not this, it ended at just about the right time. Although I think a few more episodes of Dark Finch would have been great. Add in Control and Zoe, that would be the only thing I would have liked, and I know from interviews that is what they wanted as well. 

 

Even as as a whole, the series has very few misteps, mainly The Brotherhood and Iris, and we never got to see the payoff of the chemistry Zoe and Reese had  The latter I don't mean in a HEA way, just would have liked to have seen a little more than flirting. Oh well, all minor nitpicking. 

I have a feeling this is one of those shows that ends up much more appreciated once it's over.  It really was fantastic, and a real shame it never got the credit it deserved.  

[Syme]

On 06/22/2016 at 7:01 AM, Princess Lucky said:

Beautiful episode.

......

Thanks for all the conversation, guys. Both on TWoP and here. It's been illuminating. I'm glad we had a show of this caliber to bring us together.

 

Indeed. I have not been this involved in a show since S1 of Veronica Mars.... "We used to be friends, a long time ago.."

On 06/22/2016 at 9:33 AM, Hanahope said:

The Machine has "memories" of all recordings (both visual and audio) that have been made since such things started being recorded and collected. 
...
Did we ever find out what happened with Control?  She didn't die, right? 

Who's to say TM was even watching the funeral; we're allowed our own flashbacks, right???

We can only assume re: Control's fate.

 

On 06/22/2016 at 2:09 PM, Princess Lucky said:

You know, we never did learn John's or Harold's real name.

That's kind of beautiful.

Indeed.

On 06/22/2016 at 2:20 PM, Netfoot said:

It's been good, people.  Thanks for coming along for the ride, but now it's done.  Except, I will remember, so PoI will never die.

Likewise....

One thing I'm unclear on; was the Harold/Grace reunion in Italy, or did she come back to NYC?

[janeta]

I'm pretty sure that was Italy.

[ABay]

Sorry. Too many tabs open.

Edited June 25, 2016 by ABay

[Dowel Jones]

Okay, I can add only this:  After the subway car got going through the hole in the wall, it was a hoot to see that The Machine gave the entire car a yellow square.

[Syme]

38 minutes ago, Dowel Jones said:

Okay, I can add only this:  After the subway car got going through the hole in the wall, it was a hoot to see that The Machine gave the entire car a yellow square.

I have to watch again, but that awful CBS site discourages me; I hate it.

[Jipijapa]

Fusco is going to be one of the chief pleasures of my future series rewatch.

[caseylane]

Watched the finale late but was completely unspoiled. Personally I loved it, every single minute. I have a habit of skipping series finales since they always screw them up. (It started with M.A.S.H. and has continued since). Amy Acker didn't even push my nerve.

I felt so much but you guys have said it better than I could have. My take-away is that the new crew is already in place, shown when they were used to protect John. Shaw will be leader but the work will carry on.

Loved it and will watch again numerous times.

[tessaray]

I rewatched the episode again today (3rd time) but this time with .exe back to back.  I think that (for me) it made it much better.  (Why couldn't we have had a proper 2 hour finale, CBS???)  I know I cried more this time than the previous 2 put together - especially since on the first watch I was too nervous to really appreciate it.  

And I'm impressed all over again how perfect the HEAs were for the various characters.  Fusco got his job back, John got his hero's ending, Finch got Grace and Shaw got Bear and to keep working the numbers with the Machine.  

 

29 minutes ago, caseylane said:

Watched the finale late but was completely unspoiled. Personally I loved it, every single minute. I have a habit of skipping series finales since they always screw them up. (It started with M.A.S.H. and has continued since). Amy Acker didn't even push my nerve.

The M.A.S.H. finale truly traumatized me and forever ruined that show, never could/would watch it again. I'm glad the producers went ahead and wrote the season as if it were the end, though if they had gotten a new berth on another network I wonder if we would have gotten a weird S6.  Like Leverage - it had a perfect series finale at the end of S4, which made S5 feel off-kilter to me. (Not that I complained too much, loved that show...)  

[Syme]

I just pondered how much the show's ending was about growth of the characters.

• Reese: from a self-centered drunk loser to a valiant hero.
• Root, from a psychopathic killer to a good friend and ally of TM, inc.
• Fusco, a lazy dirty cop no one would miss became the most unlikely of allies.
• Shaw learned how to turn the volume up.
• And Harold, so driven by his ethos, learned to survive.

And of course, Bear, who learned there's more to chew on than people.....

[Syme]

Query:

Was there an inference I missed re: Shaw and her Samaritan implant being usurped by the Machine to communicate with her?

Or was She talking to Shaw & Harold via the private network & earbuds?

[yellowfred]

I think it was supposed to be the private network and earbuds (except when they were in the gold vault, because there was no reception in there), but I really wasn't sure during that graveyard scene.  Like, it kind of looked like Shaw wasn't entirely sure where the voice was coming from.  Then again, she could have just been surprised because it was Root's voice coming through her earbud.

[jhlipton]

I'm a bit surprised that, with all the HHGttG fans on the forum, no one made a Pan-Galacyic GargleBlaster comment when the thug was hit with the Large Gold Brick.

On 6/22/2016 at 6:30 AM, kwnyc said:

The young cop (Fusco?) made fun of the dead stockbroker, calling him the 1% and saying the guy had stolen his 401k. When they opened the guy's briefcase, they saw a birthday card and present; and when they went to notify the family, it was a wife and young child (presumably it was his birthday.)

It was the child's 3rd birthday -- there was a card with a large 3 on it in the briefcase.

On 6/22/2016 at 10:03 AM, CoderLady said:

To me at least, going forward The Machine is going to be Samaritan but with a compassionate soul. In a way it earns her the actual name "Samaritan" but that name is tainted now. Very ironic.

In keeping with the3 Catholic themes of the show, The Machine could become the Good Samaritan!

[MDKNIGHT]

Quote

In keeping with the3 Catholic themes of the show, The Machine could become the Good Samaritan!

Hey given recent statements from the Pope I expect The Machine to send a text apologizing to every LGBT person on earth.  Hee

I was slow to join the party and watched sporadically until Amy Acker's Root joined the show.  She brought just the right kind of crazy.  I'm going to miss the show but am relieved the end wasn't the total blood bath I feared it would be.  Because of the overall quality of the show I am forgiving them for killing off half the lesbian couple despite the fact that it seems  like EVERY show kills off half of its lesbian couple, (unless its name is Glee) and it is enfuriating. 

I bought the first 3 seasons on dvd and will get the rest when I get there while doing a re-watch.  There are several eps that will be new to me so there is that comfort.

Unlike the people behind some of the other shows I've watched I don't know who we give credit to for this show.  I've seen reference to their next project on this site but not the name of it.  Who are they and what is the new show called?

[Agent Dark]

Just now, MDKNIGHT said:

Unlike the people behind some of the other shows I've watched I don't know who we give credit to for this show.  I've seen reference to their next project on this site but not the name of it.  Who are they and what is the new show called?

Jonathan Nolan and Greg Plageman were the executive producers.  Jonah Nolan is the brother of Christopher Nolan, so you might know his writing credits from movies like Memento, The Dark Knight, The Dark Knight Rises and Interstellar.  Nolan's next project is an adaptation of Westworld (1970's movie that was written by Michael Crichton) about a futuristic theme park with Anthony Hopkins, Ed Harris and Evan Rachel Wood amongst others.  He's also supposedly starting on TV series based on Isaac Asimov's Foundation Series.

[Syme]

On 06/30/2016 at 8:27 PM, Agent Dark said:

  He's also supposedly starting on TV series based on Isaac Asimov's Foundation Series.

Sigh... I believe there is literature that is simply unfilmable. By the time they do, it's painful to watch.

I'll continue to envision Hari Seldon in my imagination