S02.E10: Fatherland

[ElectricBoogaloo]

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Cole has his loyalty tested when Ramse and Railly go rogue, embarking on an unsanctioned mission that sends them to 1961 East Berlin to find a German doctor who knows the location of The Witness.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Promo:

[wanderingstar]

Ramse and Cassie working together against Cole? Oh how times have changed.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Clip:

[MostlyC]

Is there a law that Matt Fewer must appear in every sci-fi/fantasy show?  

[bethy]

1 minute ago, MostlyC said:

Is there a law that Matt Fewer must appear in every sci-fi/fantasy show?  

If there is, it's a good law. I may, or may not, have thought "Max Headroom!" when he appeared on screen. #old

[Jaded Sapphire]

Was it just me or did this episode have a lot of commercial breaks?

[wanderingstar]

The Cassie/Ramse team-up continues to intrigue me - especially now that Cole's firmly against it.

I like Dr. Adler, so I was shocked to see him go rogue. I guess a person can only bide their time for so long.

Cassie is so sad and broken right now. I still want to know what exactly happened during the time she was in the future sans Cole and Ramse (I mean, besides sleeping with Deacon).

Loved seeing Agent Gale again. Sad to see him go.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Gillian Rosh

[blugirlami21]

Good episode. I like that Cassie and Ramsey have obviously come to an understanding and reached a new level of camaraderie but it's unfortunate that it's at the expense of their relationship with Cole.  

They really disrespected him in this episode. Even after they ditched him, he still went after them and they still chose revenge over seemingly everything else. I'm glad that Cole finally reached his breaking point.

With Dr. Adler, all I could think was that escalated quickly. But he's been pretty salty ever since Hannah came back so it really was only a matter of time before he rebelled.

I'm surprised at who Olivia turned out to be. I wonder what it means now that she's been disillusioned by the witness.  I wish that Cole had asked more questions about what the witness says about him. His name is bandied about a lot. Always with recognition followed by significance. Why is Cole so special to the witness?

Edited June 21, 2016 by blugirlami21

[Chaos Theory]

The Cassie/Ramse team up is so dark and downward spirally so I love it. 

So does this mean Cole is going to run into a previous (not dead) version of Detective Gate...because yay.

Cole having Cassie and Ranse arrested was sad and ironic.  This is the guy who started the show willing to shoot anyone to stop the plague and Cassie and Ramse were the ones who had to pull him back.  Now Cassie and Ramse are all out of control and Cole has finally had enough of their shit.

Edited June 21, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[thuganomics85]

Aww, poor Gale.  But it sounded like Cole will show up in his life again a few more times, so at least this hopefully won't be the end of Jay Karnes time on this show.

Matt Frewer!  They really have been diving into the recognizable actors in Canadian-based shows pool this season.  At this rate, The Witness is going to end up being Roger Cross.  But when it comes to Frewer, I still remember the good time as Dr. Leekie on Orphan Black; especially his character's exit from that show!

Oh, shit!  Everyone is just coming apart at the seams and turning on each other!  Cassie and Ramse betray Cole and go to the 60s instead, which leads to Cole no longer giving any fucks, and having both of them locked up.  They both looked so heartbroken in their own way.  And even Dr. Alder gets in on it, and Jones is the one who puts him in lockdown.  Hell, even Whitley doesn't seem to know who he should be sided with, exactly.  Things are getting crazy!

Meanwhile, Deacon's got his poor psychotic heart broken, after Cassie confirms that their thing was really just a one-night stand, and now he's just sitting on the roof with a beer, waiting for the Red Forest to do him in.  Oh, you big nutter, you!

Took me till near the end to figure out the girl was going to be Olivia, although now that I think about, I should have suspected it earlier since Alisen Down and Scottie Thompson do share enough features, that I can buy their characters being related.

Missed next week's previews, but I have to think that Cole's only real option is getting help from Jennifer again.  Who knew she would end up being one of the more reliable players in this battle?

[Evie]

I've always loved Cole's relationship with Cassie and Ramse, but I was glad he reached his breaking point. I reached my breaking point. 

I never thought I'd say this but poor Duncan.

[kat165]

It was almost a joy to see Dr. Leekie again.

Nice to have backstory on Olivia. Can't wait to see what she does with her giving up on the Witness, how that will play out. And I hope we get to see the other times Cole and Gale have met before that Gale stopped himself from telling Cole about. I wish there was a way Cole could end up saving him from dying in Berlin.

This season I'm really digging all the time travel to different periods in time.

And speaking of time travel, Kirk Acevedo seems to be aging backwards. He looks great. And not as haggard as he looked on Fringe.

[BK1978]

2 hours ago, bethy said:

If there is, it's a good law. I may, or may not, have thought "Max Headroom!" when he appeared on screen. #old

So I am not the only one who thinks that every time I see him.  It does not matter if it is Orphan Black or this show, he will always be Max Headroom to me.

[lawless]

Missed chunks of the episode because I couldn't help but switch back and forth between this show and the rerun of Game of Thrones, but I did see the Deacon true confessions attempt with Cassie and

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Meanwhile, Deacon's got his poor psychotic heart broken

I was amazed at how bad I felt for Deacon of all people.  I loved the twist that he had a crush on her from when he was a kid and she was some type of TV celebrity doctor/hero.  I wished she'd at least given him a hug or something -- both 'cause I felt bad for him, but also it seems smarter to keep on Deacon's good side, all things considered.  He's become oddly lovable, but also remains terrifying.

[justmehere]

Yeah, it really felt like an Orphan Black crossover tonight with Ethan Duncan (Adler) missing his child, Tomas (Mossad guy) being a "bully", and of course Doctor Leekie, still working in eugenics and trying to create a genetically advanced human! Funny.

Lots of betrayals in the episode but loyalty as well. Glad it looks like we might see Gale again.

I, too, am curious about Olivia's path now.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Of all the breadcrumbs dropped in this episode, I am most excited to see Cole and Gale's longlasting friendship in a future episode. I wonder what year(s) he will spend with Gale and how long he will be there. Gale was talking to him like they were BFFs so it has to be for a pretty significant length of time. Maybe Cole gets sent back for another mission and somehow gets stuck there for longer than expected?

To be honest, when Adler said that he knew what it felt like to be denied retribution every day because his son died of the plague too, I thought he was implying that he was mad at Ramse for ensuring that the plague happened. I would be! If Ramse tried to pull that "Help me get revenge on the Witness! I lost my son because of him!" I would have told him to go fuck himself because millions of people lost their children due to Ramse's decision to let the plague happen so that Sam would be born. And what is Cassie's huge personal grudge against the witness and Ramse telling Adler that Cassie wants revenge for what the Witness did to her? So he pretended to be Aaron?

Poor Cole. Being betrayed by the two people you love and trust most in the world sucks. They lied to him, drugged him, and then stole his money and passport to make sure he wouldn't interfere with their plan. Despite all that, he still did everything he could to get to Germany and keep them from getting killed by the Mossad agents. I was so annoyed when Ramse said that he and Cassie had earned the right to their "all leap, no look" attitude. I mean, who cares that the Witness is trying to collapse time? Ramse is mad at him because Sam is gone!

Ramse and Cassie have both come off as very cold, especially lately so it's nice to see that they're still capable of human emotions. Despite their mutual dislike for each other, both were clearly uncomfortable when the other was being smacked around by the Mossad agents.

I really wish Cole & co. had asked Kirschner a lot more questions about his research. What about this perfect woman he found made her the perfect candidate for creating his experimental human? Who was the sperm donor? Was it Kirschner? Or did he find some perfect male specimen to make perfect babies with Vivian? What is Olivia immune to? Did he create any others before her?

Now we know that Olivia and the Pallid Man are sibings, but who is the Pallid Man's father?

I'm really curious as to why Olivia is suddenly so bitter and talking about ending her cycle because Vivian lied to her about the Witness always being there for her. Is he not returning her calls now or what?

Yeah, it really felt like an Orphan Black crossover tonight with Ethan Duncan (Adler) missing his child, Tomas (Mossad guy) being a "bully", and of course Doctor Leekie, still working in eugenics and trying to create a genetically advanced human! Funny.

This totally felt like an Orphan Black crossover due to Kirschner talking about finding the perfect candidate for his experiment and then all the immunity stuff (which the Clone Club could really use!).

[wanderingstar]

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At this rate, The Witness is going to end up being Roger Cross.

Alright, this would make my entire year!

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I've always loved Cole's relationship with Cassie and Ramse, but I was glad he reached his breaking point. I reached my breaking point. 

Yeah, I was shocked at first when Cole immediately told Whitley to lock up Cassie and Ramse. But then I remembered that they drugged, robbed and ultimately betrayed him. 

I liked this episode because it fractured so many relationships, and I am now curious to see how (or if) the writers repair them by season's end.

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And speaking of time travel, Kirk Acevedo seems to be aging backwards. He looks great. And not as haggard as he looked on Fringe.

So it's not just me!

Quote

So I am not the only one who thinks that every time I see him.  It does not matter if it is Orphan Black or this show, he will always be Max Headroom to me.

Table for 3. I always think Max Headroom when I see Matt Frewer.

[bethy]

9 hours ago, kat165 said:

And speaking of time travel, Kirk Acevedo seems to be aging backwards. He looks great. And not as haggard as he looked on Fringe.

I had the exact same thought this week. He looked very nice in his tux, I must say.

7 hours ago, lawless said:

I was amazed at how bad I felt for Deacon of all people.  I loved the twist that he had a crush on her from when he was a kid and she was some type of TV celebrity doctor/hero.  I wished she'd at least given him a hug or something -- both 'cause I felt bad for him, but also it seems smarter to keep on Deacon's good side, all things considered.  He's become oddly lovable, but also remains terrifying.

I know, right? I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that maybe Cassie should stay far away from Cole. When you've got people rooting for the psycho murderer instead of the main female character you've done something...wrong? Right? I'm not really sure. I've gotten to really like Deacon for all his uh, issues, this season. While I'm kinda pissed at Cassie all the time.

44 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Of all the breadcrumbs dropped in this episode, I am most excited to see Cole and Gale's longlasting friendship in a future episode. I wonder what year(s) he will spend with Gale and how long he will be there. Gale was talking to him like they were BFFs so it has to be for a pretty significant length of time. Maybe Cole gets sent back for another mission and somehow gets stuck there for longer than expected?

I liked this, too. Gale was hilariously awkward with his "I've known you a long time... um, NEVERMIND!" exchange with Cole. It's interesting that he was all "Sometimes you have to go it alone." I'm guessing he and Cole's friendship develops while Cole is on the outs with Cassie and Ramse. I wonder if it'll be during the 1957-59 timeframe when Cole (I'm assuming) goes back to deal with the paradox. 

I'm really intrigued by Cole's importance to the Witness, especially given that at the end of last season the Witness had evidently told Olivia that Cole disappeared into obscurity in the original timeline and that was part of the plan. Has Cole's ability to change what happens made him valuable to the Witness? Was the Witness lying to Olivia? What does it mean that the person intent on destroying Time thinks that Cole is important? I keep forgetting that the Witness is human, so it may be that other emotions - love, hate, revenge - are playing into this as well.

Honestly, I was glad to see Cassie get that slap down from Cole. I think she thought she could count on Cole's feelings for her - and his loyalty to both her and Ramse - to get him to forgive her/them for that betrayal. (I don't think Ramse was at all surprised by Cole's reaction.) Frankly, I feel like Cassie's taken Cole for granted and used him as a whipping boy all season. I was glad to see he'd had enough. I do think he'll forgive them both eventually, but Cassie expected it immediately, while Ramse, I think, has a more realistic expectation of how Cole would react.

I missed Jennifer this week. While I don't ship Cole and Jennifer (I'm finding I don't really ship anyone on this show except maybe the Cole/Ramse bromance), I think she appreciates him in a way Cassie hasn't. Jennifer may be "crazy," but she trusts Cole and values his instincts. Same thing with Jones at this point. 

I kind of liked seeing quiet Dr. Adler take a stand.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 minute ago, bethy said:

I liked this, too. Gale was hilariously awkward with his "I've known you a long time... um, NEVERMIND!" exchange with Cole. It's interesting that he was all "Sometimes you have to go it alone." I'm guessing he and Cole's friendship develops while Cole is on the outs with Cassie and Ramse. I wonder if it'll be during the 1957-59 timeframe when Cole (I'm assuming) goes back to deal with the paradox. 

Yes, I loved that you could see Gale's expression changing after Cole said, "I only met you once though, right?" as he realized that it hadn't happened for Cole yet and then he was like, "Yup, yup, just that one time. Totally."

Honestly, I was glad to see Cassie get that slap down from Cole. I think she thought she could count on Cole's feelings for her - and his loyalty to both her and Ramse - to get him to forgive her/them for that betrayal. (I don't think Ramse was at all surprised by Cole's reaction.) Frankly, I feel like Cassie's taken Cole for granted and used him as a whipping boy all season. I was glad to see he'd had enough. I do think he'll forgive them both eventually, but Cassie expected it immediately, while Ramse, I think, has a more realistic expectation of how Cole would react.

ITA that Cassie thought that Cole loves her so much that he would forgive her for anything. I also think that she assumed once she and Ramse completed their mission, Cole would admit that they made the right choice. She definitely did not expect him to tell her that he doesn't trust her enough to take her on his next mission. She was shocked that he didn't just say, "Oh, no worries!" and then everything would go back to normal. I think/hope that Cole will forgive both her and Ramse (I mean, if he forgave Ramse for working with the Messengers to ensure the plague would happen, he can forgive just about anything) but that it will be later rather than sooner. Of course, a two year trip back in time just might convince him to forgive her as soon as he gets back to 2044 so it may seem like only a day or two to her.

[Chaos Theory]

I kept telling myself when Ramse and Cassie are getting along bad bad things are going to happen.  

[Inquiry]

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Of all the breadcrumbs dropped in this episode, I am most excited to see Cole and Gale's longlasting friendship in a future episode. I wonder what year(s) he will spend with Gale and how long he will be there. Gale was talking to him like they were BFFs so it has to be for a pretty significant length of time. Maybe Cole gets sent back for another mission and somehow gets stuck there for longer than expected?

 

 

 

1

I know there's a long-standing theory that Cole is the Witness and I'm starting to see signs of it too. At least, a version of Cole. Of course, if that's true, then he's kind of an egomaniac if he talks about James Cole a great deal. In one of the earlier episodes, the Witness was inside the House and said that from 1957 to 1959, this was his home. We know the paradox apparently happens in '57 (in an earlier episode the Word of the Witness showed Cole was in 1957 and this episode it showed he was also in 1959. This is pure speculation, but I think they bring Cole to 1957 and something happens to the Machine (such as Cole's tether temporarily breaking because of the impending Red Forest, and he gets stuck for two years. Gale telling him that he'd known him long enough now would lean towards that).  Of course, it could just be a red herring. I'll just say that I'm going to be looking out for who's staying where when we get to that time period. 

Edited June 21, 2016 by Inquiry

[MissLucas]

Hmm, I'm confused after this episode (what else is new?) Dr Kurschner claimed that the Witness had sent him a perfect woman to clone/create Olivia - that must have been Vivian. Vivian was one of the 12 babies/messengers/monkeys introduced in 1.13 by Olivia. So were the 12 messengers cloned from Olivia who was herself cloned from Vivien? No wonder Olivia had a field day screwing around with Jennifer's mummy issues.

Gale and Cole basically pulling a Dr Who/River Song was great. If this show was more into tongue in cheek Gale would have mumbled 'spoilers' after giving away that he's seen Cole between 1944 and 1961.

I've been patient with DarkCassie because I thought we would sooner or later get a bit more insight into her journey to asshattery and into her relationship with Deacon. But apparently there's not much more to her character change than what we've seen (i.e. living in the apocalyptic future screws you up) and a one-night stand, meh. I get that she must have been traumatized by what she experienced in the future but damn lady, you're actually part of a project that tries to make things better - in other words you've got what the rest of the world hasn't: hope. I was glad Cole had her and Ramse arrested but quite frankly I wished he would have broken their tethers and let them rot in the past. I still haven't forgiven Ramse what he has done and now he is again stabbing Cole in the back, urgh. I love Kirk Acevedo but I wish the show would be less insistent that ultimately I have to like Ramse. And Cassie's just being an idiot right now - she's supposed to be smart yet risks everything just to get revenge. Jones could not have been clearer - their harebrained scheme was based on flimsy intel and they were both too blinded by their lust for revenge to see it. Cole's plan was much more rational (they knew that preventing primaries from getting paradoxed diminishes the Red Forest). Jones chose hope over revenge - those two idiots didn't and thereby screwed everything up.

Obviously those are lead characters and therefore they won't rot in prison for as lang as I would like them to - so I'm bracing myself for their return. I do hope however that Cole manages to hold a grudge for a while. Especially against Cassie who had the nerve to play on his feelings for her in that last scene - that was such a manipulative move.

It'll be interesting to see where Olivia turns to now that she's severed ties with the 12 Monkeys. Never thought I would be intrigued by her story. When it was revealed that she had survived being grounded by Jennifer I was annoyed but now I'm intrigued - well played show.

Edited June 22, 2016 by MissLucas

[shapeshifter]

I kind of wish when the Mossad guy was beating Cassie and Ramse that they had shown real bruises and injuries which then healed before the Mossad guy's eyes.

 

11 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

...Now we know that Olivia and the Pallid Man are sibings, but who is the Pallid Man's father?...

I thought the Pallid Man was Olivia's son, no?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

5 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I thought the Pallid Man was Olivia's son, no?

In S2.E4, we learn that Vivian dies in 1971 and the Pallid Man is her son. 

[gibasi]

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 And what is Cassie's huge personal grudge against the witness and Ramse telling Adler that Cassie wants revenge for what the Witness did to her? So he pretended to be Aaron?

Cassie is the weak link in the show for me.  I don't understand her or what is motivating her.  She was presented in Season 1 as an altruistic doctor who selflessly devotes herself to helping the less privileged.  She was engaged to a great guy.  I didn't believe it was any great love affair on her part and I don't think we've seen her grieving for him.  I always thought she had a thing for Cole but love? And we find out she hooked up with Deacon.  I see her as someone who does not put her so called love interests before her own.  She goes her own way despite what Aaron tells her or Cole or Deacon.  I find that kind of refreshing in a female character.  And I totally bought her as the doctor trying to stop the plague but that doesn't seem to be her goal anymore. Now she's all about the Witness and killing him.  But why?

[Bort]

10 hours ago, gibasi said:

Cassie is the weak link in the show for me.  I don't understand her or what is motivating her.  She was presented in Season 1 as an altruistic doctor who selflessly devotes herself to helping the less privileged.  She was engaged to a great guy.  I didn't believe it was any great love affair on her part and I don't think we've seen her grieving for him.  I always thought she had a thing for Cole but love? And we find out she hooked up with Deacon.  I see her as someone who does not put her so called love interests before her own.  She goes her own way despite what Aaron tells her or Cole or Deacon.  I find that kind of refreshing in a female character.  And I totally bought her as the doctor trying to stop the plague but that doesn't seem to be her goal anymore. Now she's all about the Witness and killing him.  But why?

I think Cassie feels completely violated by The Witness. He took over her mind and body, making her do terrible things and now she's got a lot of rage that's clouding her judgment. So I buy this character development in her. 

[gibasi]

I confess I have never been someone who remembers an episode from one week to the next. I settle for the big picture.  So I honestly cannot remember-what terrible things did she do?  I remember The Witness deceiving her and pretending to be Aaron but cannot remember what terrible thing she did.

[dargosmydaddy]

5 minutes ago, gibasi said:

I confess I have never been someone who remembers an episode from one week to the next. I settle for the big picture.  So I honestly cannot remember-what terrible things did she do?  I remember The Witness deceiving her and pretending to be Aaron but cannot remember what terrible thing she did.

Kidnapping Sam, holding a gun to his head... and if she hadn't done that, he wouldn't have been sucked into wherever he is now.

[Bort]

4 minutes ago, dargosmydaddy said:

Kidnapping Sam, holding a gun to his head... and if she hadn't done that, he wouldn't have been sucked into wherever he is now.

Sabotaging the time machine, where fixing it caused what's-his-name to be radiated to ash. Mountain Aaaaaasssshh! (Sorry, Teen Wolf joke, he was on that)

[MissLucas]

That explanation isn't really doing it for me since Cassie had even prior to the Witness messing with her been pretty insufferable. I realize that the writers wanted to send her on a path to darkness while Cole has obviously found a way out of the darkness that had him trapped at the beginning. I like the idea but the execution is not really working for me YMMV.

[dirtydi]

I've lost interest, like my friends and family.  I will watch to the end of season 2, but I don't think I'll stick around for season 3, if they get one.

[shapeshifter]

Were we supposed to know who the little boy was in this episode? At first I thought he was Sam,  but I guess not.  When he walked back into the red storm, he splintered, right?

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

{just caught up on the last week and this week}

-  So was it my overactive imagination, or was that Sam; the kid that walked up on Deacon-Whitley & company?  Notice that he didn't time-mutate when he was enveloped by the red storm, but turned into a black mist that rose up into it.

-  I appreciate it because of the storyline complications & alterations it created, but what a totally shit move by Cassie & Ramse to sabotage Cole's mission just because of their blind thirst for revenge.

-  So Cassie & Deacon did 'get to know each other in the biblical sense' at least once.  Still odd that they waited until a couple episodes before the season finale to finally shed a revealing light into their shared past in the last 9-10+ months in 2043/'44.

-  Sad to see Gale turned religious (because he was holey, get it?), but was pleased to remember we'll be seeing him again, as foreshadowed by his slip in letting Cole know they've 'known each other for a long time'.

-  I like Cassie and Ramse (still, despite everything), but OMG did they so deserve those punches and slaps by the Mossad.

-  I know it should be expected by now, that every single POI (Person Of Interest) that they travel back in time to interact with knows who Cole is (or has heard of him from someone/where), but why did neither of the three time-travelers press the issue of why The Witness spoke of Cole so much to Kirschner?  Seemed prudent to inquire about, personally.

-  Olivia was 'created'.  Was the Pallid Man also?  I'm thinking he was, considering the stuff he's survived and/or healed quickly from & he seems to possess above average strength for a man his age... but if not, why a natural impregnation/birth for him and not Olivia??  If he wasn't 'created', are his unique abilities inherited from his birth mother, Vivian?   And what a timey-wimey mind-bender to know that Olivia helped create the Messengers (of which Vivian was one of those babies in 2015 [or '16]), and then Olivia was in turn created from an egg of one of those said Messengers, back in the very late 1950s.  That's some real trippy shit right there.

-  Olivia going to join forces with Jennifer & Cole now?  Or stay within the 'organization' and sabotage Pallid Man (& thus The Witness) that way??  Intrigued and awaiting to see how this will play out.

-  Cole having Cassie & Ramse locked up was actually a pretty tame reaction.  He could have had them forced out into the world and let them try & survive the Red Forest Storm.  Again, I like them both, but (especially Cassie) to attempt to play on his emotions to get away with what they did was the last straw for Cole.  This had to happen.  He allows it now, they'll just keep doing it.  They did it their way and now destruction is literally on the doorstep. 

-  Can I say that I love how Cole has just stepped up and taken charge?  People like Whitley still look to Jones for confirmation, but Cole has basically taken the reigns and is calling the shots.  Jones pretty much even just defers to him and his judgements & 'gut feelings' now.  I think she's even abandoned calling it 'the mission' or 'our mission' now, and just refers to it as 'Cole's mission'.

 

This show just keeps delivering, each week.  Never a letdown or "this episode was totally pointless" feeling that I usually have with other weekly scripted shows.  As someone mentioned above, for a time-travelling sci-fi show, the dedication to details and the continuity is amazingly well thought-out and delivered on screen with each new episode.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

The coordinates for Titan's location are:
38° 32.45' 45.7"N
102° 28' 55.4"W

According to google map, it's located near Sheridan Lake (that's the name of a town - it's not an actual lake) in eastern Colorado near the Kansas border.

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was it my overactive imagination, or was that Sam; the kid that walked up on Deacon-Whitley & company? 

If it had been Sam, I'm sure that both Deacon and Whitley would have called him by name. Sam and Ramse had been living at the facility for long enough for Deacon, Whitley, and the others to recognize him.

Edited June 23, 2016 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode:

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

If it had been Sam, I'm sure that both Deacon and Whitley would have called him by name. Sam and Ramse had been living at the facility for long enough for Deacon, Whitley, and the others to recognize him.

That reasoning makes a lot of sense, but it doesn't explain why the kid 'splintered' or just turned into that black mist instead of either aging or de-aging to death like what happened to the people in the photos, or continuously looping between ages & life/death moments like was shown happened to one of Deacon's guys back when the Red Forest Storm originally started in 2044.

I'm thinking its a memorable plot point that they showed the kid's exit that exact way, instead of seeing him turn into an old skeleton or a dead infant.

Edited June 23, 2016 by iRarelyWatchTV36

[gibasi]

Thanks for reminding me of Cassie's misdeeds!  I totally blanked on her holding a gun to Sam's head and vaguely remembered her being responsible for destroying the time machine. But like MissLucas said Cassie was pretty pissy before all that.  And it does not seem like she feels responsible for her actions while under The Witness's control.  I don't see guilt or even that she feels she owes it to Ramse to follow him in his quest to retrieve Sam.  YMMV

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I'm thinking its a memorable plot point that they showed the kid's exit that exact way, instead of seeing him turn into an old skeleton or a dead infant.

I think it's got to mean something, right?

[bethy]

I didn't even think about the fact that the kid didn't end up as a baby or a skeleton. I just assumed he'd turned to dust, in an ashes to ashes, dust to dust kind of way. Interesting.

I think Cassie's obsessed by the Witness because of the possession and what happened while he was possessing her, but also because she sees him as the root of all the problems that are happening now. Like Ramse said, cut off the head of the snake. I think both of them are using that as a justification for their actions - they can see what they're doing as being part of the greater good in addition to quenching their own thirst for revenge. 

Weirdly, one of the things I found most disturbing about Ramse's and Cassie's betrayal was the way they acted getting Cole to drink the roofied alcohol. He was so relieved they'd followed him, believed in him, given his, "I'm just so glad you're with me on this" speech, and they smiled and toasted and pretended to be chummy in order to drug him. It was gross. And it broke my heart for Cole that the two people he loves most were that duplicitous. 

Edited June 23, 2016 by bethy

[shapeshifter]

I agree with your entire post ^^ bethy.
This is interesting:

3 hours ago, bethy said:

I didn't even think about the fact that the kid didn't end up as a baby or a skeleton. I just assumed he'd turned to dust, in an ashes to ashes, dust to dust kind of way. Interesting....

I just assumed he splintered away, but, yeah, maybe the red storm poofs people to dust.
Or maybe it does splinter them, and in an alternate universe, their lives go on. Changed circumstances, but not dead. I could then imagine, for instance, Cole with Sam in one time-verse, with Ramse in another.

[FurryFury]

I had a different reaction to Cassie and Ramse fooling Cole into going to 1961: I simply didn't believe the Pallid man when he told Cole about 1957. It felt like an obvious trick and misdirection, and I was baffled Cole believed him so easily.

I did like Deacon (again) and his cute crush on Cassie. 

[Hanahope]

I feel like I have to start keeping notes on this show because the whole time-travel bit is getting confusing.

I think the story is Vivian (a 12 monkey), gives regular birth to the Pallid Man, who although seems to age normally, has extra healing power and strength.  Another of Vivian's eggs is used to "create" Olivia, who ages much slower and also has the extra healing power and strength.  I wonder who was the sperm donors for each of those children.  I did think that the doctor, Kurshner?, looked a lot like the Pallid Man. So I wonder if when the Witness provided Kurshner with Vivian, he used his sperm to create the Pallid Man.  Now, was that a "natural" type fertilization/birth, or also part of his experiment that while had some successes, wasn't complete (i.e. Pallid man got healing/strength, but not longevity/age-lessness).  And was his sperm then used for Olivia too with refinements to the experiment?

And then who are the 12 monkies' "mother and father"?  Olivia and Pallid man? Which creates the whole, how did they come into being circle.  Or is another person involved?

I wasn't entirely sure why Olivia turned against mother and Witness.  Just because she was injured and Pallid Man took over?  

I wonder if the little boy Deacon & Co. saw was young Cole or young Ramse?

[MissLucas]

I thought that Olivia was a clone and the 12 Monkeys were also cloned from her - no paternal DNA needed. Olivia and Vivian being a clone-ouroborus. But maybe that's just my 'Orphan Black' withdrawal setting in.

Edited June 24, 2016 by MissLucas

[dargosmydaddy]

On 6/21/2016 at 8:08 PM, shapeshifter said:

I kind of wish when the Mossad guy was beating Cassie and Ramse that they had shown real bruises and injuries which then healed before the Mossad guy's eyes.

Um, didn't that happen with whatever that guy was doing to Ramse's eyebrow? He seemed to be drawing blood, but there was nothing there when he pulled his finger away. Ramse didn't appear bruised at all, despite quite the pounding to his face. The guy was like, "Oh, you must have a high  pain tolerance," and didn't appear at all freaked out by it. Um, seriously?

Cassie, on the other hand, did appear to spit blood after she was hit. And haven't we seen Cole beaten/ bruised before? So why is Ramse so much more magical in the unable-to-be-hurt department?

[Netfoot]

3 hours ago, dargosmydaddy said:

So why is Ramse so much more magical in the unable-to-be-hurt department?

Why are any of them in the magical, unable-to-be-hurt department?  Did I miss something?

[shapeshifter]

9 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

Why are any of them in the magical, unable-to-be-hurt department?  Did I miss something?

Early in season one it was established that the injections given to allow their bodies to time travel also made them heal fast, even from should-be-fatal wounds (which is why Cole told Ramse to shoot him in a recent episode). At least, that's my understanding. 

[iRarelyWatchTV36]

27 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

Why are any of them in the magical, unable-to-be-hurt department?  Did I miss something?

 

12 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Early in season one it was established that the injections given to allow their bodies to time travel also made them heal fast, even from should-be-fatal wounds (which is why Cole told Ramse to shoot him in a recent episode). At least, that's my understanding. 

If anyone's interested, I posted a theory - or a slight combination of theories - about this exact thing over in the 'Mysteries & Conspiracies: Speculation' thread.  Probably mostly wrong about those said theories, but just my thought process(es) after watching and absorbing Fatherland.

[supposebly]

I liked this one. Yes, please lock them up to chill out for a while.

Loved Deacon. Love him. The end.

I don't get why Olivia feels betrayed but I also don't remember how she ended up in the wheel chair. But when she stood up, all I could think was, if you're having trouble walking, you might not want to start practicing in high heels.

Quote

I had a different reaction to Cassie and Ramse fooling Cole into going to 1961: I simply didn't believe the Pallid man when he told Cole about 1957. It felt like an obvious trick and misdirection, and I was baffled Cole believed him so easily.

I was rather disappointed that it might have been true. Otherwise, sympathizing with Cole would feel rather pointless. And unless there is a reason, it feels like a fail in the writing department.

There is a lot of torture in this show and I'm getting rather sick of it, so I would have actually loved for it to be untrue.

Was that Sam who came out of the red cloud/storm at the beginning?

What happened with Ramse's eyebrow? This show is so dark, sometimes, I can't see what's happening.

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, supposebly said:

...There is a lot of torture in this show and I'm getting rather sick of it...

Seriously!

 

4 hours ago, supposebly said:

I don't get why Olivia feels betrayed but I also don't remember how she ended up in the wheel chair. But when she stood up, all I could think was, if you're having trouble walking, you might not want to start practicing in high heels.

I noticed the heels too, and I watch on an iPad Mini. They really should have had her wear flats, or, if they wanted her to look taller, platforms with long pants.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

5 hours ago, supposebly said:

I don't get why Olivia feels betrayed but I also don't remember how she ended up in the wheel chair. But when she stood up, all I could think was, if you're having trouble walking, you might not want to start practicing in high heels.

In the episode where Cassie and Jennifer teamed up, Olivia gave Cassie a bunch of the red tea to give the Messenger access to Cassie's brain. Jennifer played her happy song over the intercom to draw Olivia away and then they fought. I think Jennifer threw her into an empty pool or stabbed her, which is how she ended up in the wheelchair.

To be fair, Olivia was wearing wedges (not regular heel) which are very sturdy and stable.