Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Eyes High]

7x04 has leaked. So if you're afraid of being spoiled for 7x04 before Sunday airs, stay away from /Freefolk.

 

Quote

I don't get it. He looks like a hobo to me. 

Yeah, I can only think of a line from You're the Worst describing Daniel Craig: "He looks like an upset baby!"

Edited August 4, 2017 by Eyes High

[anamika]

42 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

7x04 has leaked. So if you're afraid of being spoiled for 7x04 before Sunday airs, stay away from /Freefolk.

Haven't we already been massively spoiled for pretty much all the episodes and discussed everything here ? ?

Field of fire 2.0 looks to be as epic as it was hyped up to be!  Arya sparring with Brienne happens this episode - which means we should be getting a lots of Winterfell screen time.

[SimoneS]

I haven't watched 7x04 and don't intend to until Sunday on HBO, but I have been reading the reactions of the folks who watched it. Sounds fantastic; the battle, Jon and Daenerys' scenes, Arya reunion with Sansa, and Arya sparring with Brienne. I am annoyed that Daenerys only used one dragon and that the gold made it to King's Landing. It is just too much plot contrivance.

Edited August 4, 2017 by SimoneS

[ElizaD]

Arya and Brienne look so damn happy in the new duel screencap I saw. People are hyping the arrival of the Dothraki and Drogon, I'll wait so I can experience that in high quality. But I too am annoyed that Cersei gets all the gold, not just half like in the outline. At least it seems that Dany burns the food, I hope there's something in season 8 that suggests KL is starving because Cersei spent the gold on mercenaries.

[Tikichick]

Anybody have an idea why an illustration of the catspaw dagger would have shown up in the pages of the book Sam was flipping through when he found the Dragonstone dragonglass diagram?  Obviously the dagger has and will play a part in the story, but I'm wondering what may be so interesting about that particular dagger that it would be shown in a book at the Citadel?

I understand it's Valerian steel, making it rare, but is that enough reason to appear in the book Sam is going through?  Wondering if it somehow has some connection to the creation of the Night's King?

[Brn2bwild]

19 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

Arya and Brienne look so damn happy in the new duel screencap I saw. People are hyping the arrival of the Dothraki and Drogon, I'll wait so I can experience that in high quality. But I too am annoyed that Cersei gets all the gold, not just half like in the outline. At least it seems that Dany burns the food, I hope there's something in season 8 that suggests KL is starving because Cersei spent the gold on mercenaries.

It struck me that Dany could have avoided so much crap if she had just sent a Faceless Man after Cersei.  But I guess that wouldn't be cool and dramatic enough?

[YaddaYadda]

19 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Anybody have an idea why an illustration of the catspaw dagger would have shown up in the pages of the book Sam was flipping through when he found the Dragonstone dragonglass diagram?  Obviously the dagger has and will play a part in the story, but I'm wondering what may be so interesting about that particular dagger that it would be shown in a book at the Citadel?

I understand it's Valerian steel, making it rare, but is that enough reason to appear in the book Sam is going through?  Wondering if it somehow has some connection to the creation of the Night's King?

I think it was just there to remind us that it exists, the same way they wanted to remind the viewers that Dragonstone sits on a mine of a dragonglass (which I'm sure everyone and their mother still remembered anyway). The stuff in the books that people went outof their way (well not really out of their way) to transcribe has been next to useless to the story. Greyscale can alledgedly be cured by ingesting dragonglass but Sam chose the very gross method of curing it instead. 

And more to your point, it seems like there's dragonglass in Valyrian steel. And maybe that's the thing that gives it that rippling effect and smoky look. If the first WW was created with dragonglass and there's dragonglass in Valyrian steel, then there is a connection between the two, however small it may be.

12 minutes ago, anamika said:

Watched it. Good stuff. There are quite a few differences to the leaked scripts so still some new stuff in there. I will just talk about the battle - it was great. Gave me chills. I love Dany - that's all. Seeing the Lannisters finally getting demolished gave me so much satisfaction -  sweet, sweet schadenfreude. I know fandom is going to support Jaime and Bronn against Dany - the reddit comments are already making me face palm - but I am going to be in my corner with the two other Dany fans cheering her on. Can't wait to watch it again in better, higher quality on Sunday.

Yeah, the gold getting to Cersei is annoying. She is going to continue getting plot gifts so that she can last till the finale next season.

I'll watch the episode on Sunday, but you can count me in as the 3rd person. Fuck Jaime for supporting his psychotic sister so that they can drag this on.

Edited August 4, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

Please do not discuss leaked episodes anywhere in the forum before they have aired.

[Katsullivan]

On 7/30/2017 at 6:33 PM, Raachel2008 said:

FWIW, I don't think that show Dany will be that cool about banging her nephew either.

Another change from the books because book!Dany was raised to believe that she'd marry her brother and she felt betrayed by him when he sold her to Drogo instead. In the books, the Targaryens are raised with the concept of incest being normal and it's evident in all that they think and do. So one of Egg's sisters tries to slip him a love potion so he'll favor her over their other sister, and Egg is irritated by this because he doesn't want to marry anyone, he wants to be a Knight. He's not irritated at marrying any of his sisters, just the idea of being married at all. Aemon Dragonknight is in love with Naerys, and it's depicted as a tragic love story, a Lancelot/Guinevere/Arthur if Arthur was really Henry 8. Rhaenyra had a crush on her uncle, Daemon, etc. 

In the books, finding out Jon is related to her after they've started a love affair will endear him even more to Dany. I can imagine her wanting him to automatically shift his loyalties to Targaryen and struggling to understand why he, in turn, is struggling with what he feels towards Ned about the deception. Dany constantly reminds herself "I am the last dragon" with great sorrow, and I expect that her first reaction at realizing this is not true will be extreme joy.

[GrailKing]

On 8/1/2017 at 7:41 AM, Eyes High said:

Sansa and Arya go to Bran, Bran tells Arya he saw her at the crossroads, thought that she might go to King’s Landing. Both the girls then spot the Valaryian steel dagger and ask
where he got it, he informs them it’s from Littlefinger and that he gave it to him because it was the one that was used to try to kill him after his fall. He then hands it to Arya, saying he
doesn’t want it, it’s worthless for a cripple. Sansa watches the exchange, upset that he didn’t give it to her.

Sound almost right except Sansa being upset, not having a dagger, if she's smart enough to run WF, she's smart enough to know she can't use that.

I think she's upset that LF had it and gave it to Bran, she knows how his mind works.

LF gifts are like Euron's ; poison.

Sunday please come.

Soooo, they leaked the episode : (

 

Holding out for Sunday.

Edited August 4, 2017 by GrailKing
mine for mind

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, Katsullivan said:

Another change from the books because book!Dany was raised to believe that she'd marry her brother and she felt betrayed by him when he sold her to Drogo instead. In the books, the Targaryens are raised with the concept of incest being normal and it's evident in all that they think and do. So one of Egg's sisters tries to slip him a love potion so he'll favor her over their other sister, and Egg is irritated by this because he doesn't want to marry anyone, he wants to be a Knight. He's not irritated at marrying any of his sisters, just the idea of being married at all. Aemon Dragonknight is in love with Naerys, and it's depicted as a tragic love story, a Lancelot/Guinevere/Arthur if Arthur was really Henry 8. Rhaenyra had a crush on her uncle, Daemon, etc. 

In the books, finding out Jon is related to her after they've started a love affair will endear him even more to Dany. I can imagine her wanting him to automatically shift his loyalties to Targaryen and struggling to understand why he, in turn, is struggling with what he feels towards Ned about the deception. Dany constantly reminds herself "I am the last dragon" with great sorrow, and I expect that her first reaction at realizing this is not true will be extreme joy.

I am not sure how the show will write Jon and Daenerys' reactions to being related. I would not find it credible that if either Jon or Daenerys are outraged, but I expect that they will be shocked and uncertain. However, after recovering from the shock, like you said Daenerys should be happy to have another relative who can continue the Targaryen line even if it is not with her. The fact that D&D is moving ahead with Jon and Daenerys' romance suggests to me that there are implications for the ending, specifically a pregnancy. If Daenerys does become pregnant, she will have to marry. Jon would be not only the baby's father, but he is the only potential husband would united the kingdom and bring powerful alliances. 

Edited August 4, 2017 by SimoneS

[Minneapple]

46 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Another change from the books because book!Dany was raised to believe that she'd marry her brother and she felt betrayed by him when he sold her to Drogo instead. 

She wasn't in love with Viserys though. She had more or less just resigned herself to marrying him because that was Targaryen tradition. 

I think show Jon will be quite sickened by the fact that he's fucked his aunt and I still think it will be the downfall of one or both of them. The northerners will not be pleased if Jon bends the knee; moreover he will have bent the knee, he will be a Targ and he will be in a relationship with another Targ. Strike three.

[Blonde Gator]

 I suspect Daenerys will be rather perturbed by the mere thought of Jon being a Targaryan.  It depends, though, on whether he is has been legitimized or not.  This is an important plot point, and we'll just have to wait to see how it plays out.

Because if Jon is not a bastard, but the lawful son of Rhaegar, his claim to the Iron Throne will clearly be superior in all ways to  Dany's.  Here's the crux...if that is so, Dany is going to have to do some serious soul searching, because that bumps her down to the Spare, Jon being the Heir.  Even though Dany is powerful in her own right, and has WMD's (dragons), she should rightly support Jon's claim (even though he will no doubt not care about sitting on the Iron Throne or ruling all of Westeros).  If Dany continues to engage in the Game of Thrones, knowing Jon, her nephew, is the legitimate heir to the Iron Throne, it means she is EXACTLY like all of the other players in the great game.  She is no longer special, or deserving of the throne as her birthright. 

What will she do when presented with this information?  Will this be part of the "bittersweet" ending for Dany (whom even GRRM has declared as one of his favorites)?   Will she change her plans, and do her duty?  Or continue to pursue her goal, and to Hell with her supporters?  Will she abandon Westeros altogether, and head East once again (Quaith's prophecy to go East, beyond the Shadow of Asshai is still hanging out there in the wind).  Is Dany's ultimate destiny to restore the Valyrian race somehow?  These are the questions that make me go "hmmm".  

Stray thought.  Howland Reed is one of THE keys to the endgame.  When will he show up?  We have so many unsolved mysteries right now, which only Howland Reed can resolve.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Blonde Gator
Oops! Jon is Dany's newphew, not uncle.

[TarotQueen]

I'm not very invested in the Jon/Dany pairing though I ain't mad about it, but in any case I highly suspect the aunt/nephew revelation is going to be totally dwarfed by the mindfuck Jon is already going to be experiencing from not being Ned's son, being a Targaryen etc.

If Jon has a reaction specifically because of the romance/family overlap, I think it will be more like, '... oh and that too!' more than a thing by itself.  because as others have noted, there are uncle/niece pairings already in the Stark family tree.

Added:  Although I do agree with the poster above also that Dany's reaction will be a key moment for her; she sees this as a birthright, innate to her DNA, but maybe conquering is just something she happens to be good at (hinted at by Daario) regardless of this errant belief she had in her inheritance?  I could see that being a mindfuck for her too.

Edited August 4, 2017 by TarotQueen

[Oscirus]

Thing is that, Bran is wrong. Jon is no more the rightful heir than Dany is. Robert took the throne fair and square. At this point it's just a case of who can take it, not who inherits it.

[TarotQueen]

That's only true in a general sense though,  its not the rules Dany is playing by in Westeros, its not even in the same game (though it was in Slavers bay).  Her whole identity is tied up in being 'the Targaryen heir to the Iron Throne'.

[tangerine95]

I don't think them being related will be that big of a deal to either especially if they're already in love and in a relationship.I agree Dany would be fine with it and probably happy she's not the last of her family and it won't affect her wanting to be with Jon.For Jon imo the bigger issue would be finding out he's not Ned's son since that is so important to him and he's proud of being his son.I can see him having more of an issue with being related to Dany than she would but I don't think it will be something that will separate them.

Imo Dany stepping aside to let Jon rule despite him most likely having no interest in that wouldn't make sense.Rheagar was never crowned king and he died before the mad king right?So Viserys would be next in line and then Dany as his heir.I think the line of succession can kinda go either way there with valid claims for both Jon and Dany.But at this point it really comes down to right of conquest and since Dany is actually working on that,I don't think her taking the throne if one even exists at the end,would be dishonorable or something.Tbh if they make it,I think both Jon and Dany would rule as equals so I don't even see it ever being an issue.

[SeanC]

Just now, tangerine95 said:

Imo Dany stepping aside to let Jon rule despite him most likely having no interest in that wouldn't make sense.Rheagar was never crowned king and he died before the mad king right?So Viserys would be next in line and then Dany as his heir.

Jon being heir has nothing to do with whether Rhaegar was crowned or not.  He's the firstborn son's son.  That comes before the secondborn son or the only daughter in pretty much any system of title inheritance.

[tangerine95]

5 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Jon being heir has nothing to do with whether Rhaegar was crowned or not.  He's the firstborn son's son.  That comes before the secondborn son or the only daughter in pretty much any system of title inheritance.

Like I said I think they both have good claims,basically the kinda thing that could lead to war like the dance of dragons if they were different people.But since it comes down to right of conquest rn and establishing the dynasty again,I don't think it matters that much tbh.

Like I would think it's lame if Dany spends all this time and effort trying to get back to westeros,fighting for the throne,hatching actual dragons,winning the war and then she steps aside for Jon because of a slightly better claim even tho he never knew about it,never wanted it and pretty much kept out of the war for the throne to fight the white walkers.I think both Jon and Dany would be good rulers and my ideal end is them ruling together so I don't have an issue with either on the throne,I just wouldn't really like it or think it makes sense if Dany just stepped aside for him after everything.

[SimoneS]

I can't even see Jon taking his claim to the Iron Throne seriously. He has never been ambitious for power. More likely, he just goes with whatever Daenerys wants to do and she decides that they both rule together. I think that they would be great co-rulers with their small council comprised of Davos, Tyrion, Missandei, Varys, Arya, and Sam. 

[Stephanie1216]

I wanted to see Helmsworth as a young Robert but he may be too old to play Robert Baratheon in a prequel.

One time I read that less than 10% of the worlds population were true blondes much less the look of a Targarian. Does anyone know who Matt Barr is? I think that's his name he played Johnse in Hatfields and McCoys. I think he's a about as blonde as a man can come simply because when his shirt is off his chest and arm hair are very blonde. And he looks GREAT with shirt off. He has the height and body for Rheagar but he's from Texas and chances of him mastering an English accent are zero%. But from the neck down.

The georguous redhead that played Spartacus on Stars with the dimples, height and all around handsomeness has the accent but what part could they cast him for? Prequel Robert? We need a Rhaegar for flashback and a prequel romanatic, gentle, fighter crown prince type Rhaegar. Hunan is also a true blond with right accent but is he too old? Speaking of that Spartacus Stars show, his right hand man that played Gladiator Crixus could maybe be the Black bearded gorgeous tough guy Cersai describes as a young Robert. Tom Hopper could have as well but they have wasted Hopper to play Dickon.

 

Lets also face face the fact that the current show cast the lovely Tom Hopper, handsome, tall, great physique and all he has said was "Dickon" maybe he's not the greatest actor but he's easy on the eyes and he knows how to film combat scenes. They wasted Tom Hopper just to be killed after two scenes so the casting is kinda stupid as of now.

[Blonde Gator]

42 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I don't think them being related will be that big of a deal to either especially if they're already in love and in a relationship.I agree Dany would be fine with it and probably happy she's not the last of her family and it won't affect her wanting to be with Jon.For Jon imo the bigger issue would be finding out he's not Ned's son since that is so important to him and he's proud of being his son.I can see him having more of an issue with being related to Dany than she would but I don't think it will be something that will separate them.

Imo Dany stepping aside to let Jon rule despite him most likely having no interest in that wouldn't make sense.Rheagar was never crowned king and he died before the mad king right?So Viserys would be next in line and then Dany as his heir.I think the line of succession can kinda go either way there with valid claims for both Jon and Dany.But at this point it really comes down to right of conquest and since Dany is actually working on that,I don't think her taking the throne if one even exists at the end,would be dishonorable or something.Tbh if they make it,I think both Jon and Dany would rule as equals so I don't even see it ever being an issue.

The oldest (legitimate son) is the heir.   The Heir's oldest legitimate son is his Heir.   Particularly in patriarchal monarchies.  It matters not whether he Heir has been crowned or not, if the Heir has legitimate male sons, they are next in line before the Heir's younger brothers.

Aerys---Rhaegar--->Ageon  VI (dead)--->Jon (presuming he's legit)-->Viserys (dead) ---> Dany.

We can use current day England as an example.  Before they (recently, 4 years ago?) changed the law to include girl children in the line of succession, it looked like this:

QEII -->  Prince Charles ---->Prince William--->Prince Harry--->Prince Andrew (younger brother of Charles, no male heirs, so they skipped Beatrice & Eugenie) --->Prince Edward --->Viscount Severn (Edward's son).

But now, with female children eligible, it's changed, but it's always "blood children" of the next heir before siblings, then their heirs, before the next sibling, and so on.

QEII --->Charles--->William--->Prince George ---> (his heirs if he has any, then first born children's heirs, and so on) --->Princess Charlotte (her heirs, if she has any, and so on) --->Harry (his heirs, if any) and THEN on to Prince Andrew, Charles' brother. 

That is the LAWFUL succession.

So if Dany chooses to ignore it, she CAN take the throne if Jon declines, OR if she wants to take it by right of POWER.  Or, she could, as is Targ tradition, marry King Jon.

38 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

Like I said I think they both have good claims,basically the kinda thing that could lead to war like the dance of dragons if they were different people.But since it comes down to right of conquest rn and establishing the dynasty again,I don't think it matters that much tbh.

Like I would think it's lame if Dany spends all this time and effort trying to get back to westeros,fighting for the throne,hatching actual dragons,winning the war and then she steps aside for Jon because of a slightly better claim even tho he never knew about it,never wanted it and pretty much kept out of the war for the throne to fight the white walkers.I think both Jon and Dany would be good rulers and my ideal end is them ruling together so I don't have an issue with either on the throne,I just wouldn't really like it or think it makes sense if Dany just stepped aside for him after everything.

There is no "slightly" in better claim.  If Jon is proved to have been legitimized, he has, de jure, the rightful claim to the throne. 

Just as Geoffrey had a "claim" to being the heir to the Iron Throne, had it become known in the Kingdom that he was the spawn of incest and not Robert Baratheon's natural born child, he would be OUT. 

Then again, as they say, "possession is 9/10ths of the law".  But the law is still the law.  As I originally said, much depends upon exactly WHEN the information becomes known that Jon Snow is Rhaegar's son, and whether or not he is not a great bastard, but rather a legitimatized son, by law, and therefor THE rightful successor to the Iron Throne.

[Bill1978]

23 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

QEII -->  Prince Charles ---->Prince William--->Prince Harry--->Prince Andrew (younger brother of Charles, no male heirs, so they skipped Beatrice & Eugenie) --->Prince Edward --->Viscount Severn (Edward's son).

Not to be too nitpicky but Beatrice and Eugenie are ahead of Prince Edward and his immediate family in the British Throne of Inheritance. Even before the new law came into place before George's birth, females were allowed to inherit the throne. It's just that males got first stab at it in each immediate family. It's why before all her grandkids were born the inheritance for QEII's kids goes Charles(1)-->Andrew(3)-->Edward(4)-->Anne(2)

[Hook75]

I'm still waiting for Robert's son to show up again (was it Gendry?) and take the throne, then hook up with Arya.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Hook75

[SimoneS]

12 minutes ago, doram said:

@tangerine95 It's funny you mentioned the Dance of Dragons because that was a succession crisis that could easily have been resolved with marriage - if Rhaenyra and Argon didn't loathe each other. With Jon and Dany, I imagine it'll be a case of "you should have it"/" oh no, you should have it"/ "no, I want you to have it!!!" / "I gave it to you first". ??

 

If anything I think the biggest problem will be Dany deciding to end things with Jon for the 'greater good of House Targaryen'. Regardless of whose claim is greater, only Jon of the two of them can produce the necessary heirs to perpetuate the dynasty. So I can imagine a situation where Dany decides that Jon needs to be married to some other woman for thus purpose and their love affair ends.

Which would no doubt hurt and infuriate him - for being treated as an emotionless stud and because she's dismissing his love for her, thinking that he can just 'get over' her and be with another woman, or that he can settle for anyone else after her, and of course the 'evidence' that she obviously doesn't love him enough.

I can imagine him going 'do you love me at all? Or am I just a tool to preserve the House of Targaryen?' ? And she'll be like 'how can you say that???'?  And he'll be all 'then WHY is it so EASY for you to send me away?' And she'll be like 'who said it was easy for me!!! I am DYING imagining you with someone else!' And he'll be like 'I don't want to BE with anyone else, dammit! Why can't we just-'? and she'll scream: 'Because we CAN'T! People like us don't get to live happily ever after!'??

Oh. the. Angst! Delicious, delicious angst! ?????

I can't stop laughing because I can totally see this happening. Of course, Dany pops up pregnant solving their dilemma so that they can live happily ever after.

[Blonde Gator]

Hate to be such a bummer about the Happy Ending.....but there's the Azor Ahai / PTWP prophecy.  It may end up that one of them will need to kill the other in order to slay the Walkers and save humanity.  Remember Dany's prophecies regarding  Mounts / Fires / Treasons  (and one of each for love).  It seems that the "for love" for each of the three categories has yet to be fulfilled, and Jon fits all three prophecies "For Love" to a tee.   She needs a new mount (Ghost?) A new fire to light (the Sword) and a new Treason (plunging the sword, or being the recipient of the plunging sword).  In order to bring Lightbringer to bear, it needs to be lit, by the blood of someone you love.  Which of course, may be the ultimate betrayal, being betrayed (or betraying) the one you love.  I hope Dany & Jon have fun in the moment, because I just don't see it lasting in this story.

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I can't even see Jon taking his claim to the Iron Throne seriously. He has never been ambitious for power.

I don't think its going to be about what Jon wants. I think the point of Jon's claim is that, once Dany does whatever she's been foreshadowed to do that gets Varys to turn on her, Jon's better claim will make him a much better candidate for King in the minds of the nobles and they might opt to "elect" him King as a means of removing Dany.

Robert used his Targ ancestry (one of his grandmothers off the top of my head) and that all the other branches had been extinguished as the fig leaf to legitimize his assumption of the Crown rather than right of conquest. That means that even though the name used was Baratheon, it was still claimed to be a continuation of the Targ dynasty because there were no better claimants stepping up to claim it (admittedly because Robert was willing to use assassins if any of them starting making noises about trying to do so, but a lot of dynastic successions were based on less).

Dany IS basing her claim on the fact that the proper line of succession was not followed (i.e. that is should have gone to Viserys and then herself after his death). Her invocation of the Starks' oaths to her ancestors as why Jon must bend the knee to her are proof of this. If she was claiming rule by right of conquest it would be "kneel because I have dragons" not "kneel because your ancestors knelt to my ancestors."

My guess is that the break will be the nobles perceiving Dany as going overboard with burning of those who won't kneel to her (particularly if they need every able-bodied man to fight the Army of the Dead). A man who doesn't even WANT the throne and is liable to let the noblemen do as they will in their own lands would probably be seen as a far friendly alternative. If the nobles play hardball (i.e. "if you want our continued support against the White Walkers...") they could probably even insist Jon NOT be able to take Dany as a wife to sidestep the matter and Jon, for the good of the realm and life itself would probably have to comply.

If Jon's better claim becomes known and is used by the nobles to back him as King over Dany, her only recourse if she wants to rule in her own right is to use "because dragons" as her claim, becoming a usurper herself and confirming the noble's perceptions of her as a power-mad tyrant (one that weapons like Cersei's Scorpions and/or Jon having claimed a dragon for himself could give them a fighting chance against).

Also, even with as big a special effects budget as this show has, they probably can't afford more than an hour-ish of battles featuring "dragons" and "the army of the dead" for season eight. The show is going to need enough plot to fill the remaining five-ish hours and putting Dany against Jon seems like one of the likelier ones to pull out.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Chris24601

[Pogojoco]

Just general thoughts: Jon realizing he isn't the bastard son of Ned Stark and Danaerys coming to terms with the idea that she isn't the last Targaryen and perhaps not the actual heir is far more interesting than any sort of romance these show runners could come up with. Even if they end up hooking up, I don't think a long term relationship is the right way to go.  Like, it makes sense for them to be allies but it also makes sense for them to have serious issues as well when the truth about Jon's parentage comes out. 

 

I also think Danaerys makes a much more interesting villain or despot than any sort of romantic "I freed slaves so I'm good"  type . Those dragons are napalm and eventually she is going to use them. They would be very useful against wights (for Jon Snow's purposes), but using them against humans should probably come with some consequences or have some sort of effect on how Danaerys behaves or how she is seen by those who have warm, fuzzy feelings about her.  

 

As for Rhaeger, I always thought Alexander Skarsgård would fit the bill as he is tall, elegant, beautiful, and ethereal.  He's probably too old at this point. I see Skarsgård as Rhaeger and Clive Standen (Rollo on Vikings) as Robert Baratheon. He's also probably too old, but that's the physical types I see. 

Edited August 5, 2017 by Pogojoco
took out "endgame" talk

[Katsullivan]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

I can't stop laughing because I can totally see this happening. Of course, Dany pops up pregnant solving their dilemma so that they can live happily ever after.

I'm also laughing at @doram's post. I certainly see Dany's "barren-ness" causing all kinds of drama between these two until she gets her Surprise! Baby. I'd love to imagine a HEA for all three of them (Dad, Mom & baby Targ) but I have to agree that it's more likely that one parent (Jon) will die, probably at the hands of the other (Dany) for the GreaterGood(R). Most likely, neither Jon nor Dany will sit on the Iron Throne but their child will, and start a dynasty that will last for a thousand years. 

[MrsR]

Interesting conversation on the line of succession especially considering GoT and the War of The Roses.

 

Prior to Henry VII, the King named his successor but with consent from a nobles council. It could be just about anyone but most likely was the next closest relative. Edward the Confessor played a smidge too fast and loose with his promises which is why Harold and William the Conqueror came up against each other as well as Hardrada getting in on it as well. Ultimately the noble council would have decided but, William took it by force.  Henry I wanted the throne to go to his daughter Matilda when his son William Adelin died in the first recorded party boat accident, her cousin Stephen objected and there was the 12 year Anarchy. When Henry VII took the throne by force ( and ended the War of the Roses) his first act was to get Parliament to pass a law on the line of succession, going to the next closest royal,  and not excluding women. Henry VIII changed his mind endlessly between Mary, Elizabeth, naming them both as heirs as well as disowning them on any given day Edward VI's birth settled that dispute.

 

Finally after the Tudors and all the drama between the Stuarts and Cromwell  Parliament settled it with an act of Parliament.

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

I don't think its going to be about what Jon wants. I think the point of Jon's claim is that, once Dany does whatever she's been foreshadowed to do that gets Varys to turn on her, Jon's better claim will make him a much better candidate for King in the minds of the nobles and they might opt to "elect" him King as a means of removing Dany.

The nobles can want a lot a things, but there won't be many of them alive after both wars. Anyone who doesn't want to bend a knee, Daenerys can simply kill. If she decides not to kill them, she can give their lands to lesser nobles who are willing to bend the knee or create new aristocracy from the Dothraki and her other allies. It is an effective strategy which is why European monarchs have done it for centuries.

 

2 hours ago, Pogojoco said:

I also think Danaerys makes a much more interesting villain or despot than any sort of romantic "I freed slaves so I'm good"  type . Those dragons are napalm and eventually she is going to use them. They are very useful against wights (for Jon Snow's purposes), but using them against humans should probably come with some consequences or have some sort of effect on how Danaerys behaves or how she is seen by those who have warm, fuzzy feelings about her.  

Based on what we have seen on the screen and the books, Daenerys isn't a villain. I don't see why there should be consequences for a Dragon using dragons, while there are no consequences for using swords. They are all weapons that you use to kill your enemies before they kill you. Dragons are just more effective in killing a bunch at a time. Anyone who serves Daenerys and has a problem with her using her dragons should think long and hard about what Cersei would do to them if Daenerys loses.

War is brutal and there is nothing warm or fuzzy about it. William the Conqueror (also known as William the Bastard because he was illegitimate) who invaded England in 1066, was known for his brutality. He would literally butcher his enemies. When the Anglo-Saxons rebelled against him, he would cut off their hands and feet, gouge out their eyes and raze their villages and lands. Despite his brutality, William is credited with civilizing the Anglo-Saxons and creating the foundation for the England that we know today. To put down opposition among the Anglo-Saxon nobles, he married Norman lords into their families and confiscated their lands when necessary. He is the direct ancestor of all the modern day European monarchs. 

Edited August 5, 2017 by SimoneS

[Pogojoco]

If there wasn't going to be any consequences for using a weapon of mass destruction on vast numbers of people, people you mean to rule,  that wouldn't have been a talking point for Tyrion to bring up. Jaimie killed Aerys to prevent it from happening.  

Having one queen be considered good while another evil when one has used a weapon of mass destruction (wildfire) on her court and the other intends  to use one (dragons) doesn't make much sense. The story should be more nuanced than that. The lesser of two evils winning is likely what is going to be the result. And it's not contrived to have power corrupt. It's what power does. 

And it's not to argue that Dany should be evil. But the situation should be complicated. 

Edited August 5, 2017 by Pogojoco

[bubble sparkly]

Quote

If anything I think the biggest problem will be Dany deciding to end things with Jon for the 'greater good of House Targaryen'. Regardless of whose claim is greater, only Jon of the two of them can produce the necessary heirs to perpetuate the dynasty. So I can imagine a situation where Dany decides that Jon needs to be married to some other woman for thus purpose and their love affair ends.

Maybe Bran can cut this off at the pass with his emotionless vision weirdness lol?

B: I saw you on the boat with Jon.  Fire and ice coming together.  You looked so beautiful as he put a baby in you.

D&J: ...???...

[Pogojoco]

4 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

Maybe Bran can cut this off at the pass with his emotionless vision weirdness lol?

B: I saw you on the boat with Jon.  Fire and ice coming together.  You looked so beautiful as he put a baby in you.

D&J: ...???...

Creepy see everything Bran is good times. 

[TarotQueen]

18 minutes ago, bubble sparkly said:

Maybe Bran can cut this off at the pass with his emotionless vision weirdness lol?

B: I saw you on the boat with Jon.  Fire and ice coming together.  You looked so beautiful as he put a baby in you.

D&J: ...???...

goddamn i nearly choked on my coffee at this.  too funny!

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, bubble sparkly said:

Maybe Bran can cut this off at the pass with his emotionless vision weirdness lol?

B: I saw you on the boat with Jon.  Fire and ice coming together.  You looked so beautiful as he put a baby in you.

D&J: ...???...

Oh, you're really bad!

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

Endgame and/or Season 8 discussion should be posted over in those spec topics.

This topic will be locked if the rules can't be followed.

[anamika]

5 hours ago, Pogojoco said:

If there wasn't going to be any consequences for using a weapon of mass destruction on vast numbers of people, people you mean to rule,  that wouldn't have been a talking point for Tyrion to bring up. Jaimie killed Aerys to prevent it from happening.  

Having one queen be considered good while another evil when one has used a weapon of mass destruction (wildfire) on her court and the other intends  to use one (dragons) doesn't make much sense. The story should be more nuanced than that. The lesser of two evils winning is likely what is going to be the result. And it's not contrived to have power corrupt. It's what power does. 

And it's not to argue that Dany should be evil. But the situation should be complicated.

It is a complicated situation and there is certainly an interesting discussion to be had here. We live in a world where, the accepted narrative in the 'civilized' west is that, it was the right decision to drop two atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki to bring an end to WW II. The United States has never apologized for using weapons of mass destruction on a civilian population because the act continues to be seen as justified. To this day, the dropping of bombs on heavily populated civilian areas to get rid of terrorists and dictators has been justified as a necessary evil by western countries. 

Applying these same conditions to Westeros, would Dany be justified in using weapons of mass destruction on KL in order to get rid of someone like Cersei? Dany is certainly in a dilemma here. How can she effectively use her dragons to her advantage? That she has refrained from doing so, thus far, indicates that she does not want to go in burning innocent people. She has only ever used her dragons on soldiers and people trying to kill her in Essos. Tyrion's advice seems to be that she not use her dragons at all. But Tyrion himself has deployed weapons of mass destruction when he used wildfire to decimate Stannis' forces. Dany has to find a middle ground somewhere. What she needs is a good battle commander who can help her plan war - she must be really missing Ser Barristan, Jorah and even Daario right about now. I think we will have to see how the discussions play out between Tyrion, Dany ,Jon etc. on this issue before debating her actions, whatever those may be.

Plus, the people of KL don't seem to really mind getting blown up seeing as how they were cheering for Cersei last episode and gave the raping, pillaging Iron islanders a hearty welcome.

Edited August 5, 2017 by anamika

[Raachel2008]

11 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Dany constantly reminds herself "I am the last dragon" with great sorrow, and I expect that her first reaction at realizing this is not true will be extreme joy.

In the books, maybe. But on screen the whole 'I'm the last dragon' thing has been used almost as an badge of honor. You know those moms at PTA who are oh, so sorry, yet so proud that their children have the worst case ever of lactose intolerance or allergies or whatever, and, no, no other child couold possibly have it as bad as their? Sort of that. Anyway, a huge part of Dany's identity is about being the last Targaryen, rightful heir, etc, as much as Jon's is being Ned Stark's bastard son. The way I see the it, this should be what really really really messes up with them and not the fact they are aunt and nephew, which is not to say it won't bother them. I guess what I'm really trying to say is that I have already seen a few articles saying that Jon/Dany is the worst idea ever because they are related, and many fans seem to feel that way, while ignoring what that info really means to the characters IMO.

12 minutes ago, anamika said:

Plus, the people of KL don't seem to really mind getting blown up seeing as how they were cheering for Cersei last episode and gave the raping, pillaging Iron islanders a hearty welcome.

Ah, but the majority of peope who died in the Sept were nobles and the High Sparrow's croonies. The commom folks probably thought 'good riddance, assholes'.

All in all, I just want Jon/Kit's incridibly distracting new accent to go. Like yesterday.

[anamika]

5 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Ah, but the majority of peope who died in the Sept were nobles and the High Sparrow's croonies. The commom folks probably thought 'good riddance, assholes'.

But I thought the people liked those High Sparrow cronies? And that's why they wielded so much power in KL. Plus the exploding Sept took out everyone within a 100 meters  - that would be quite a few KL common folk as well.

Edited August 5, 2017 by anamika

[Raachel2008]

8 minutes ago, anamika said:

But I thought the people liked those High Sparrow cronies? And that's why they wielded so much power in KL. Plus the exploding Sept took out everyone within a 100 meters  - that would be quite a few KL common folk as well.

Part of them, not all, right? I didn't think about the 100 meters radius, maybe they still think it was good to get rid of the nobles. Or maybe Euron is right and KL's common folks are the worst.

[anamika]

30 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Part of them, not all, right? I didn't think about the 100 meters radius, maybe they still think it was good to get rid of the nobles. Or maybe Euron is right and KL's common folks are the worst.

From the way they all gathered to cheer Cersei's naked march down the streets of KL, I would think that most of KL supported the High Sparrow. At least that's what the High Sparrow kept constantly nattering about for the whole of season 6 and why the Tyrells and Lannisters could not do anything about them when they did things like imprison the queen.

Looking at this,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNBj5KNacvg

That's some massive destruction that I don't think even Drogon is capable of.

If the KL people don't mind that Cersei killed off common folk in order to take down the High Septon, they should not be too fussed about the collateral damage incurred when Dany tries to take down Cersei.

But of course, Cersei's plot gifts means that no one will be bothered when she does these things, but everyone will be horrified when Dany does. On this show, the bad guys never face the consequences of their actions.

The battle next episode could be the first battle after Battle of the Blackwater where we get the audience maybe rooting for both sides or split 50/50 between them. I wonder if this battle also gets an epic name.

Edited August 5, 2017 by anamika

[SimoneS]

17 hours ago, Pogojoco said:

If there wasn't going to be any consequences for using a weapon of mass destruction on vast numbers of people, people you mean to rule,  that wouldn't have been a talking point for Tyrion to bring up. Jaimie killed Aerys to prevent it from happening.  

Having one queen be considered good while another evil when one has used a weapon of mass destruction (wildfire) on her court and the other intends  to use one (dragons) doesn't make much sense. The story should be more nuanced than that. The lesser of two evils winning is likely what is going to be the result. And it's not contrived to have power corrupt. It's what power does. 

And it's not to argue that Dany should be evil. But the situation should be complicated. 

It does make sense because GoT is a sci fantasy novel, not a morality play which is exactly why the story isn't more nuanced or complicated. Most sci fantasy novels are about good vs. evil. GOT which is clearly a version of Lord of the Rings is no different. The tv writers cannot change this which is why has been clear from the beginning that that Daenerys is good and Cersei is evil. By having Daenerys not use her dragons to slaughter unarmed people, but rather against Cersei's army, the writers are reinforcing this dichotomy even though it has no relation to how wars are fought in real life. Of course, this has caused Daenerys to have unnecessary losses so far this season.

 

12 hours ago, anamika said:

Dany has to find a middle ground somewhere. What she needs is a good battle commander who can help her plan war - she must be really missing Ser Barristan, Jorah and even Daario right about now. I think we will have to see how the discussions play out between Tyrion, Dany ,Jon etc. on this issue before debating her actions, whatever those may be.

I suspect this is exactly the reason why the show dispensed of all her experienced military advisors, especially as she needs them. I cannot imagine any of these losses occurring if Barristan, Jorah or Daario was advising her. I was never convinced that Daario really had to stay in Mereen. Tyrion's military advice is influenced by his desire to protect his family or at least inflict minimum losses on them which doesn't help Daenerys win.

 

12 hours ago, anamika said:

Plus, the people of KL don't seem to really mind getting blown up seeing as how they were cheering for Cersei last episode and gave the raping, pillaging Iron islanders a hearty welcome.

To be fair, the people of KL probably cheer whoever in charge at the moment in hopes that they survive. 

Edited August 5, 2017 by SimoneS

[Bannon]

4 hours ago, SimoneS said:

It does make sense because GoT is a sci fantasy novel, not a moral play which is exactly why the story isn't more nuanced or complicated. Most sci fantasy novels are about good vs. evil. GOT which is clearly a version of Lord of the Rings is no different. The tv writers cannot change this which is why has been clear from the beginning that that Daenerys is good and Cersei is evil. By having Daenerys not use her dragons to slaughter unarmed people, but rather against Cersei's army, the writers are reinforcing this dichotomy even though it has no relation to how wars are fought in real life. Of course, this has caused Daenerys to have unnecessary losses so far this season.

 

I suspect this is exactly the reason why the show dispensed of all her experienced military advisors, especially as she needs them. I cannot imagine any of these losses occurring if Barristan, Jorah or Daario was advising her. I was never convinced that Daario really had to stay in Mereen. Tyrion's military advice is influenced by his desire to protect his family or at least inflict minimum losses on them which doesn't help Daenerys win.

 

To be fair, the people of KL probably cheer whoever in charge at the moment in hopes that they survive. 

Eh, the element of Tyrion's strategy of avoiding waging war on civilian populations makes a lot of sense, but the plot demands that Lannister forces remain a credible opponent to Dany's array of forces, so they lobotomized Tyrion temporarily, the laziest trick in television and movie writing. You don"t have to be n advanced military thinker to know the value of observation and scouting, and the Dothraki and Dragons provide optimal tools for that task. Any idiot can see that the Dothraki are best suited for a battle of maneuver anyways, and are a far less efficient force when laying siege to fixed fortifications. Anybody with a 3 digit IQ, who decided to avoid an all out assault on Kings Landing, would have the Dothraki, the finest cavalry in this world, scouting intensely, looking for any opportunity to find Lannister forces in the open. The idea that the relatively sluggish Lannister army could steal not just one, but nearly two (given reports of the High Garden loot making it back within the walls of KL) marches on the Dothraki is just lazy plot armor.

If Euron had been better introduced to this show, maybe by cutting back on the time spent on the Ramsey/Theon torture porn in earlier seasons, a more credible scenario of the current Lannister forces being able to stand up to Dany's may have been developed. I don't mean to be too harsh; this kind of expansive story telling is really hard to do at an extremely high level.

[WearyTraveler]

23 hours ago, doram said:

She's the Fire - the traditionally masculine element, while he's the Ice. 

Actually, he's both: Rhaegar was the fire, Lyanna was the ice, and Jon is a product of the union of the two.  Daenerys is only fire

[jjjmoss]

18 hours ago, anamika said:

The battle next episode could be the first battle after Battle of the Blackwater where we get the audience maybe rooting for both sides or split 50/50 between them. I wonder if this battle also gets an epic name.

I rooted for neither side. I guess one could argue that as being split. 

[YaddaYadda]

46 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

Actually, he's both: Rhaegar was the fire, Lyanna was the ice, and Jon is a product of the union of the two.  Daenerys is only fire

This is why I'm bugged by Mel's "I brought ice and fire together."

No, you charlatan, you did not. Even The Hound reads the flames better than that! 

Edited August 6, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[Pogojoco]

The fire and ice thing is sort of funny, because by most accounts- Lyanna, while an "ice" Stark, had the wild, wolf personality and Rhaeger was "fire" but he's "cool"- melancholy, hates fighting, etc. So, I don't know how much of the ice/fire thing is personality. 

[Pogojoco]

9 hours ago, Bannon said:

Eh, the element of Tyrion's strategy of avoiding waging war on civilian populations makes a lot of sense, but the plot demands that Lannister forces remain a credible opponent to Dany's array of forces, so they lobotomized Tyrion temporarily, the laziest trick in television and movie writing. You don"t have to be n advanced military thinker to know the value of observation and scouting, and the Dothraki and Dragons provide optimal tools for that task. Any idiot can see that the Dothraki are best suited for a battle of maneuver anyways, and are a far less efficient force when laying siege to fixed fortifications. Anybody with a 3 digit IQ, who decided to avoid an all out assault on Kings Landing, would have the Dothraki, the finest cavalry in this world, scouting intensely, looking for any opportunity to find Lannister forces in the open. The idea that the relatively sluggish Lannister army could steal not just one, but nearly two (given reports of the High Garden loot making it back within the walls of KL) marches on the Dothraki is just lazy plot armor.

If Euron had been better introduced to this show, maybe by cutting back on the time spent on the Ramsey/Theon torture porn in earlier seasons, a more credible scenario of the current Lannister forces being able to stand up to Dany's may have been developed. I don't mean to be too harsh; this kind of expansive story telling is really hard to do at an extremely high level.

It also makes me kind of wonder why the plan now isn't just to march the Unsullied to King's Landing. It's not that far by land (no further than Highgarden, and timing is so fluid), and the Lannisters don't have aerial forces like Team Dany does. You are right that the Dothraki would be no good in a siege, so send them from the East to take out the Lannister army returning to KL from Highgarden and have the Unsullied come at King's Landing from the West. If there was still an Frey army in the Riverlands, that might be an issue. But Arya took care of that. Who does Cersei have in the Midwest who isn't already occupied in the Southwest? Is the Gold Road from the Rock to King's Landing open?

 

Greyjoy/Lannister have the advantage on the sea, so take it off the sea. 

[anamika]

1 hour ago, doram said:

Daenerys's own wildness is stereotypically masculine. The black and white outlook on the world, without any "feminine" nuances. Her saviour complex veers more on the Vengeful Justice edge of the scale (than the feminine Mercy edge). Then of course, her weapons are masculine and destructive - dragons, and we're constantly told that she's a better conqueror than ruler just like Aegon I. It was his sisters who ruled Westeros after the Conquest. Even her archetype is masculine.

And this is very evident in the criticism that is often aimed at her - arrogant, entitled, the gendered insults, how dare this bitch ask Jon Snow to kneel , rooting for Jaime/Bronn to take down bitch, cunt Dany etc. If that was Jon down there burning enemy soldiers with dragons, fans would be whooping with delight.

Edited August 6, 2017 by anamika