Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[OhOkayWhat]

5 hours ago, SeanC said:

What would Sansa do in the south if not deal with Cersei?

Survive. And guide the rest of survivors. I suspect Winterfell will fall in the first third of the next season. She'll "deal" with Cercei at a "safe" distance. Maybe from the Riverlands.

[screamin]

On 7/29/2017 at 1:19 PM, YaddaYadda said:

The thing I always wondered about is if Ned showing up with seven people isn't the reason the fight happened. That's seven people too many who would know this secret and the more people know, the less chances there are that the secret will remain a secret. If he had come alone, maybe things would have gone differently. Ned is looking for a solution that doesn't involve having to fight and the Kingsguard aren't having it. If he had been alone, I think the outcome might have been vastly different, especially if they know that Ned and Robert had a fight over the murders of Aegon and Rhaenys.

 

It's understandable that the Kingsguard would think that seven henchmen were too many to be let in on the secret in the Tower - but if they really were acting as Lyanna's bodyguards and servants, that judgement - to decide to kill Ned and all his men - still shouldn't have been up to them to make. By all means, forbid all of them but Ned from entering the tower to speak to Lyanna and see if a deal can be struck. But deciding to kill Lyanna's brother without consulting her is the action of jailors, not obedient, trusted servants.

Which makes me think that maybe while the original escapade with Rhaegar was undertaken by Lyanna's free will, maybe the situation had evolved by the time Hightower came to bring them up to date on what their honeymoon together had wrought on Lyanna's father and brother, and that now Rhaegar is expected to return to KL and help Aerys slaughter the rest of them. Perhaps pregnant Lyanna wanted to leave to go back to her family, and Rhaegar ordered the KG to keep her there against her will, and let no one near her till he came back.

That would explain the KG's actions, but with the showrunners' disregard for detail I don't expect any real explanation for what went down then.

I suppose Ned's uncritical love for Lyanna is understandable given his tendency to willfully ignore the shitty side of anyone he loves - as witness his abiding friendship with sleazy King Bob.

Edited July 30, 2017 by screamin

[Eyes High]

13 minutes ago, SeanC said:

My guessing that Sansa will be involved in the Cersei plot somehow mostly comes down to a simple story calculation.  The show will go into Season 8 with basically two enemies:  the Night King, magical uber-villain, and Cersei, the regular person villain.  Sansa has nothing in particular to contribute to fighting the Night King.  Meanwhile, this season has written her as being particularly worried about Cersei.

Season 6 also reminded the audience twice that Cersei wants Sansa dead. Nothing seems to come of it in Season 7 from what we know (other than Sansa fretting about Cersei, and Cersei fuming about Sansa). Something will likely come of it in Season 8.

 

Quote

People have been debating about this for a while, but at least in the books, it doesn't appear that avuncular marriage is considered incestuous in Westeros. TWOIAF indicated that there are two instances of Stark women marrying their uncles (well, half-uncles, but I'm dubious of the argument that some have made that that's a big difference). 

Alys Karstark didn't want to marry someone she considered her uncle (actually her first cousin once removed), but not because she viewed him as his uncle (sort of like how Sansa didn't want to marry Sweetrobin, but not because he was her first cousin), and Jon hardly blinks an eye at the idea of Alys' "uncle" trying to marry her.

[SeanC]

14 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

She'll "deal" with Cercei at a "safe" distance. Maybe from the Riverlands.

That's not how the writers on this show think.  They prioritize putting main characters in scenes together; they've said as much.

[Hecate7]

6 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

So Cersei had no agency? It is all Robert's fault? Sure, Cersei expected something from Robert she didn't get, but she was never a nice person: just in the show it was told that she had always been mean to Tyrion,  cheated on her husband and mothered three chidlren from another man, watched her brother push a 10 years old boy from a tower, plotted Ned's death, ordered the killing of Robert's bastard, killed Jon Arryn, etc, etc et al. Don't even get me started with book Cersei, who physically hurt Tyrion when he was just a baby.

Robert was a dick who just wanted to fuck other women and drink and hunt, didn't care about Cersei or his kids, but he is not the one who made Cersei into someone who would  'eventually' kill his life (which she talked about openly in the books). She has always had it in her.

She did always have it in her, but she did not kill Jon Arryn. Lyssa did that.

[Moxie Cat]

Does anyone think that the "bittersweet ending" might be that Jon never finds out he is a Targ? Everyone always talks about what he'll do when he finds out, but what if he ends up on the throne anyway, but because of his actions instead of who he is? And the truth is never revealed or believed?

Then again, maybe the show will end with Dany, Jon, and co. sailing wistfully for Essos because the WW have completely overrun Westeros.

i agree that the show is about fist pump moments, but I doubt D&D will diverge from whatever ending GRRM told them.

[Minneapple]

4 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

While I do agree that when Jon discovers Dany is his aunt he won't take it well, I believe what will really mess up  him is that he is not Ned's bastard son. His whole identity is forged by that. HIs upbringing, decisions he made in his life, the way people treated him, all is a result of that. Jon will probably be relieved to finally know who is his mother, but, everything else will be a royal mess, IMO. All the Stark kids worshipped Ned, Jon was no different. He will be a 'true' Stark but not Ned's son. Never mind the Targaryen part of his true parentage. I think it will be like watching a trainwreck and the writing will probably be a trainwreck, too.

Oh, how I wish this would come true. And maybe it will, in the books. However on the show, important stuff like this barely gets a reaction. Jon dies? Oh...Jon died. Judging by previous storylines, Jon will barely blink when he finds out he's a half Targaryen/half Stark. And then it will be like oh yeah, btw, Jon's a Targaryen. 

[Oscirus]

Even though we only saw a hint of it, Tyrion and Davos are going to be fun together this season. 

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

I don't think anybody was arguing that she would kill Cersei.  That role is reserved for the valonqar, who is Jaime.

Valonqar is not a thing on this show so it doesn't have to be Jamie. If anything, the show continues to hint at it being Arya which would be fitting with the revenge theme that seems to be going on around all Cersei's story lines.

[theschnauzers]

17 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Oh, how I wish this would come true. And maybe it will, in the books. However on the show, important stuff like this barely gets a reaction. Jon dies? Oh...Jon died. Judging by previous storylines, Jon will barely blink when he finds out he's a half Targaryen/half Stark. And then it will be like oh yeah, btw, Jon's a Targaryen. 

My suspicion has been that Jon and others will then discover that not only is Jon half Targaryen but he has inherited the blood of dragons as well as the ability to bond with his dire wolf (which is where his mind/spirit was until he was resurrected). [It's also why I suspect Jon ends up on the Iron Throne.]

Edited July 31, 2017 by theschnauzers

[SeanC]

32 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Valonqar is not a thing on this show so it doesn't have to be Jamie. If anything, the show continues to hint at it being Arya which would be fitting with the revenge theme that seems to be going on around all Cersei's story lines.

They removed that line of the prophecy.  That doesn't mean they've changed the outcome; indeed, the show has removed many prophecies but kept the result.  And they've consistently said that the major characters' endings will be used.

[anamika]

So, do you guys think they cut the Meera says goodbye to Bran scene or will we get it next episode?

[glowbug]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

They removed that line of the prophecy.  That doesn't mean they've changed the outcome; indeed, the show has removed many prophecies but kept the result.  And they've consistently said that the major characters' endings will be used.

I think the show left out the Valonqar part of the prophecy because they didn't want to reveal too much. That also makes me think that the Valonqar is definitely the obvious answer: Jaime or Tyrion (more likely Jaime, IMO). If there was some crazy twist they'd probably leave it in as a misdirection. 

[MadMouse]

Anyone notice this during Dany's and Jon's conversation?  Jon talks about how Tyrion likes talking and she says "He's good at it. We all like doing what we're good at.". Jon replies with "I don't".  Go back to the conversation between Dany and Barristan when he tells her "Rhaegar never liked killing. He loved singing."

[Raachel2008]

2 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

She did always have it in her, but she did not kill Jon Arryn. Lyssa did that.

Ops, you are right, my bad., you are right.

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

So, do you guys think they cut the Meera says goodbye to Bran scene or will we get it next episode?

If the spoilers are to be believed, that goodbye happens briefly next episode.

[anamika]

17 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

If the spoilers are to be believed, th

at goodbye happens briefly next episode.

Thanks! I thought it was in this episode.

24 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

Anyone notice this during Dany's and Jon's conversation?  Jon talks about how Tyrion likes talking and she says "He's good at it. We all like doing what we're good at.". Jon replies with "I don't".  Go back to the conversation between Dany and Barristan when he tells her "Rhaegar never liked killing. He loved singing."

Yep, the show was having fun playing with the Targ Jon moments.

[OhOkayWhat]

6 hours ago, SeanC said:

That's not how the writers on this show think.  They prioritize putting main characters in scenes together; they've said as much.

And that's why Arya will share scenes with Cercei and Sansa will share scenes with Tyrion.

[Oscirus]

24 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

And that's why Arya will share scenes with Cercei and Sansa will share scenes with Tyrion.

Poor Arya will she ever get the answer to her most important question? 

[OhOkayWhat]

41 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Poor Arya will she ever get the answer to her most important question? 

LOL! By the way, something I always liked about that scene is Arya focusing in the Hound probably thinking  "that looks aweeesooomeee! "... if only she knew...

[Eyes High]

If 7x03 Bran is typical of what he's like now, no wonder Meera peaces out in 7x04. 

Sansa was predicting that all the Northerners would wind up holing up at Winterfell when the invasion begins in earnest. Foreshadowing for Season 8...?

We get yet another namedrop of Aegon Targaryen in 7x03. That's six to date so far in Season 7.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Eyes High

[SimoneS]

46 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Sansa was predicting that all the Northerners would wind up holing up at Winterfell when the invasion begins in earnest. Foreshadowing for Season 8...?

I thought it was foreshadowing. It makes sense that everyone from the north will retreat to Winterfell and that Daenerys and everyone from the south will join the battle from there. It the speculation that the Night King is a Stark is true, then he would be drawn to his family home. I wouldn't be surprised if Melisandre also shows up at Winterfell with help, maybe with Daario and his army. It will likely be a bloodbath of most of the supporting characters and some of the main ones.

Edited July 31, 2017 by SimoneS

[Eyes High]

6 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I thought it was foreshadowing. It makes sense that everyone from the north will retreat to Winterfell and that Daenerys and everyone from the south will join the battle from there. It the speculation that the Night King is a Stark is true, then he would be drawn to his family home. I wouldn't be surprised if Melisandre also shows up at Winterfell with help, maybe with Daario and his army. It will likely be a bloodbath of most of the supporting characters and some of the main ones.

I'm wondering if there will be two simultaneous battles--one against Euron and Cersei in the south and one against the WW in the north--or whether it will be a Scouring of the Shire-type situation, where after the final battle is won against the WWs some of the survivors go to KL to get rid of Euron and Cersei.

[SeanC]

5 hours ago, OhOkayWhat said:

And that's why Arya will share scenes with Cercei and Sansa will share scenes with Tyrion.

So you think Tyrion will also spend the final season on the sidelines?

[SimoneS]

56 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I'm wondering if there will be two simultaneous battles--one against Euron and Cersei in the south and one against the WW in the north--or whether it will be a Scouring of the Shire-type situation, where after the final battle is won against the WWs some of the survivors go to KL to get rid of Euron and Cersei.

Based on the spoilers/leaks, I think that the battle against the white walkers with heavy casualties comes first, then there is a march to King's Landing to defeat Cersei, Euron, and the Golden Company. Since this is season 8 speculation, I will post the rest of my thoughts there.

[OhOkayWhat]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

So you think Tyrion will also spend the final season on the sidelines?

I think the "thinkers" (Tyrion, Sansa, Varys, etc.) will spend the final season together. 

[SeanC]

Just now, OhOkayWhat said:

I think the "thinkers" (Tyrion, Sansa, Varys, etc.) will spend the final season together. 

Doing what, if they're not involved with either of the main villains?

[FnkyChkn34]

On 7/28/2017 at 11:05 PM, Eyes High said:

Tyrion falling for Dany is not surprising in the least. Whether a Tyrion/Dany/Jon triangle fueling a deadly rivalry between Jon and Tyrion, which is what GRRM planned with the Jon/Arya/Tyrion triangle in the outline, is where this is headed, though, is anyone's guess.

Wait, what?  Gross.  Not only is Jon her brother, but she's a mere child - way too young for either man.

Edited July 31, 2017 by FnkyChkn34
Typo

[Maximum Taco]

7 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Wait, what?  Gross.  Not only is Jon her brother, but she's a mere child - way too young for either man.

Remember there was supposed to be a five year age jump.

At the beginning of the books Jon is 14, Arya is 9 and Tyrion is 24.

By the time the love triangle happened Jon would be 18, Arya would be 14 and Tyrion would be 28.

It's still gross by our standards, but it's not anymore gross then 27 year old Tyrion lusting after 14 year old Sansa.

Also remember that Jon isn't actually her brother, he's her cousin. Yes, still squicky by our standards, but other characters in the books marry their cousins with little to no stigma attached.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Maximum Taco

[FnkyChkn34]

3 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Remember there was supposed to be a five year age jump.

At the beginning of the books Jon is 14, Arya is 9 and Tyrion is 24.

By the time the love triangle happened Jon would be 18, Arya would be 14 and Tyrion would be 28.

It's still gross by our standards, but it's not anymore gross then 27 year old Tyrion lusting after 14 year old Sansa.

Also remember that Jon isn't actually her brother, he's her cousin. Yes, still squicky by our standards, but other characters in the books marry their cousins with little to no stigma attached.

I guess I'm thinking of the show, where Peter Dinklage is 48 years old.  And Jon and Arya don't know that they aren't siblings, so it's still too messed up IMO.  Even if they find out they are just cousins, they were still raised by Ned as siblings.  I really would dislike that if that's where GRRM takes it.  (Probably also because I like Jon and Tyrion, but Arya is my least favorite character.  I wouldn't want either one with her.)

[OhOkayWhat]

59 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Doing what, if they're not involved with either of the main villains?

They will be involved, at distance.

[MarySNJ]

16 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

The problem with this is that Jon will fight the WW anyway. It is his war, he is the one looking for alliances, extra men, weapons. Jon will be on the field  regardless of his status with Dany or if there is a kid or not.  If there is a kid, I don't think Jon would ever abandon his child, as in leaving the kid behind forever - as far as he knows, that could have been what his mother did to him, which leads to another point:

While I do agree that when Jon discovers Dany is his aunt he won't take it well, I believe what will really mess up  him is that he is not Ned's bastard son. His whole identity is forged by that. HIs upbringing, decisions he made in his life, the way people treated him, all is a result of that. Jon will probably be relieved to finally know who is his mother, but, everything else will be a royal mess, IMO. All the Stark kids worshipped Ned, Jon was no different. He will be a 'true' Stark but not Ned's son. Never mind the Targaryen part of his true parentage. I think it will be like watching a trainwreck and the writing will probably be a trainwreck, too.

FWIW, I don't think that show Dany will be that cool about banging her nephew either.

I agree that Jon will fight the WW no matter what, but it will be doubly tragic if in addition to dealing with the fall-out from discovering his whole life has been a lie and the guilt from committing incest with his Aunt, he also has to know that he fathered "another bastard named Snow (or Waters)". I don't think Jon would ever abandon his child. He's too honorable for that. But I could see Jon trying to distance himself from Dany because he's fallen in love with her only to discover that they can't be together because he thinks it goes against the mores of Northern society... well sort of*. (* as someone else pointed out, Jon's Stark grandparents were cousins). 

Also, perhaps he doesn't learn about the baby until after the war against the WW is over, or never, if he dies before learning the truth. In any case, a baby is hope for the future, but Jon's death would make it bitter-sweet. 

Full disclosure: I don't want Jon to die, I just think it's a possible outcome; that his legacy will be his child. I just get this sad vision of Dany with her child visiting the Winterfell crypts to pay homage to Jon. 

[SeanC]

57 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

They will be involved, at distance.

That just isn't how the writers handle stories on this show.  They want their heroes and villains in the same rooms or facing off across the battlefield.

[OhOkayWhat]

24 minutes ago, SeanC said:

That just isn't how the writers handle stories on this show.  They want their heroes and villains in the same rooms or facing off across the battlefield.

Cercei is fighting at distance. And sometimes Tywin did too. Right now, also Tyrion. It will be different with Jon, Arya, Euron, Jaime, or Dany,  of course.

Edited July 31, 2017 by OhOkayWhat

[Oscirus]

Id guess that Tyrion Sansa Arya Varys and Theon are all involved in the war to take down Cersei and Euron. I wonder is somehow one of the dragons decide to go along as well.  I can't imagine that just the North is enough to take down the Night King.

[FnkyChkn34]

I'm sorry that I'm asking this, but this topic is 76 pages long and I can't find the original post or reference...  How do we know for sure that the Wall falls?  Does anyone have a link or something?  Thanks!

[Edith]

3 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I'm sorry that I'm asking this, but this topic is 76 pages long and I can't find the original post or reference...  How do we know for sure that the Wall falls?  Does anyone have a link or something?  Thanks!

It doesn't fall completely. Viserion is going to melt only a chunk of it, with V shape according to friki

http://green-chili.blogspot.de/2017/03/got-season-7-episode-guide.html?m=1

[FnkyChkn34]

26 minutes ago, Edith said:

It doesn't fall completely. Viserion is going to melt only a chunk of it, with V shape according to friki

http://green-chili.blogspot.de/2017/03/got-season-7-episode-guide.html?m=1

Thanks!

[MadMouse]

Oh boy I just read those spoilers, a Rhaegar and Lyanna flashback while Jon and Dany get it on.

[SeanC]

6 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

Remember there was supposed to be a five year age jump.

At the beginning of the books Jon is 14, Arya is 9 and Tyrion is 24.

By the time the love triangle happened Jon would be 18, Arya would be 14 and Tyrion would be 28.

In relation to GRRM's original plan, the five-year-gap didn't enter into it.  GRRM's original outline was for a "generational saga" that would see everybody from childhood to adulthood (and probably well into it).  Consider that ur-Sansa was supposed to have married and had children with Joffrey before Ned was even executed, something that (obviously) was nowhere near happening in the finished product.  The five-year-gap was developed when he was writing ACOK/ASOS and realized that the kids weren't aging anywhere nearly as fast as he wanted/needed them to.

[shireenbamfatheon]

On 29/7/2017 at 5:05 AM, Eyes High said:

Everything Sansa has, she has by virtue of a guy falling all over himself for her.

 

 

And what exactly does Sansa have? In the show, Joffrey made her life miserable, Sandor cared about her and saved her from rape but also scared the crap out of her, Lancel partook in her humiliation, Tyrion was kind because he's a good person and he didn't rape her, Ramsay raped and beat her for months on end, LF implemented her in the murder of Joffrey, isolated her from everyone, kissed her against her will, orchestrated the downfall of her family, manipulated her into marrying Ramsay and keeps making advances despite her rejections. Oh wow, Sansa's so lucky, the men in her life weren't quite as horrible as they could have been.

The only man who was genuine in caring for her without expecting anything in return was Theon, who grew up with the Starks and came to realize he cared about them more than his biological family. All of them and not just Sansa. I guess you could count the Hound as well if you can get over some of his shadier behavior. In the end, the two people who saved Sansa were Theon and Brienne, and Brienne is no man.

I can't believe this is actually being used to compare Sansa and Dany's situations. Jorah spent 15 years working for Varys for a chance to get home, and he completely blew the possibility of accomplishing it by turning on Varys for Dany and saved her life multiple times in the process. Drogo went from not understanding why the rape of slave women bothered Dany to forbidding it in the span of a literal minute. Daario killed his fellow captains and gave Dany their heads so she wouldn't lose any men against the mercenaries, whom he turned to her cause because he fell in love with her. Daario, the bloodthirsty mercenary, is also now staying behind and ensuring Meereen stays stable lol. Tyrion had to warn Dany not to commit genocide twice and not to turn into her father twice as well, but, despite being seriously disturbed by her actions this season as well, he's now in love with her. Jon gives away his kingdom after Dany agrees to an alliance because he's in love with her. 

Yeah, no difference at all.

[shireenbamfatheon]

On 29/7/2017 at 6:29 PM, screamin said:

I still think the Kingsguard's fight to the death with Ned at the foot of the tower is weirdly inconsistent with them being her trusted guards and companions and not her jailors. If the Kingsguard are under Lyanna's orders, they'd know she'd want to parley with Ned if he arrived to see if she could convince him to help them - not try to kill her beloved brother straight off. Since it's in the show, and the annulment's in the show, demonstrating that Lyanna's participation in the marriage seems to be entirely willing, I will have to attribute the inconsistency to GRRM, but it still chaps my hide immensely.

 

It could be a case of both. Lyanna might have started out as a willing participant who'd rather run off with Rhaegar instead of marrying Robert, but somewhere along the way, she could have had regrets and attempted to leave, but Rhaegar wouldn't let her because of the prophecy? Or maybe he manipulated her into believing nothing was truly amiss with her family. If anything, I'm leaning towards this after the leaks, because a Rhaegar who was so obsessed with the prophecy that he delegitimized his two kids during a war where the Targaryens had a serious chance of losing before Jon was even born, doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who'd be okay with letting Lyanna return home when he'd decided she was the person needed to give birth to his messianic son. And how romantic was it really for Lyanna to stay in a tower for a year in the middle of a desert with only her husband and the KG for company, with no contact with the outside world?

[screamin]

13 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

It could be a case of both. Lyanna might have started out as a willing participant who'd rather run off with Rhaegar instead of marrying Robert, but somewhere along the way, she could have had regrets and attempted to leave, but Rhaegar wouldn't let her because of the prophecy? Or maybe he manipulated her into believing nothing was truly amiss with her family. If anything, I'm leaning towards this after the leaks, because a Rhaegar who was so obsessed with the prophecy that he delegitimized his two kids during a war where the Targaryens had a serious chance of losing before Jon was even born, doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who'd be okay with letting Lyanna return home when he'd decided she was the person needed to give birth to his messianic son. And how romantic was it really for Lyanna to stay in a tower for a year in the middle of a desert with only her husband and the KG for company, with no contact with the outside world?

I agree it would have got old pretty quickly...especially after Gerrold Hightower arrived with the news that Aerys had burned Lyanna's father and brother and was demanding Rhaegar come back to KL to do the same to Ned and his allies. I'd guess the honeymoon would've been quite over after that, and probably the KG DID become Lyanna's jailors subsequently.

[Eyes High]

52 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

And what exactly does Sansa have? In the show, Joffrey made her life miserable, Sandor cared about her and saved her from rape but also scared the crap out of her, Lancel partook in her humiliation, Tyrion was kind because he's a good person and he didn't rape her, Ramsay raped and beat her for months on end, LF implemented her in the murder of Joffrey, isolated her from everyone, kissed her against her will, orchestrated the downfall of her family, manipulated her into marrying Ramsay and keeps making advances despite her rejections. Oh wow, Sansa's so lucky, the men in her life weren't quite as horrible as they could have been.

It's not about how horrible the guys are. The point is that Sansa hasn't earned anything on her own; it's all been through men helping her, two of whom only did so because they're in love with her. Sandor told her how to deal with Joffrey and saved her during the riot. Tyrion saved her from Joffrey-ordered beatings and refused to consummate the marriage against her will (which apparently made it automatically void in the show). LF got her out of KL. LF saved her from Lysa. Theon saved her from Myranda and allowed her to escape Winterfell. Jon won her back Winterfell.

All that's well and good--all of the main characters have benefited from others' assistance--but to criticize Dany because the only reason she supposedly achieves anything is that men are falling all over themselves to help her while simultaneously saying that this isn't true of Sansa is ridiculous.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Eyes High

[shireenbamfatheon]

Third post in a row, sorry.

I don't see what they're doing dragging out the Cersei plot till next season. This show has spent seven seasons building up The Long Night, but they're gonna spend six episodes dealing with a Southern enemy and a Northern one? It kinda undermines the NK, doesn't it? 

I always envisioned that the Great War would be just like in Old Nan's tales. Complete darkness, blizzards, oceans freezing over, lack of resources and people freezing to death everywhere, people mercy killing their loved ones, no clear way to strategize because the NK's army lacks the weaknesses of normal humans e.g. don't need food, wight animals in the form of direwolves and ice bears, ice spiders, the wights acting like the zombies in 28 days later, the NK having magical powers etc.

I get that some of it is too much for a tv show to handle properly from a budgetary standpoint, but I kinda expected this show to devolve into a full-out horror series taking place in complete darkness after hearing Old Nan's tale in season one. But now that they're splitting up the screen time between Team Cersei and Team NK, I have no idea what to expect. I thought the point of the series was people realizing how petty their games were too late, not actually continuing with them after the NK's invasion, with half the main characters being involved in a southern conflict. 

[Katsullivan]

43 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

And what exactly does Sansa have? In the show, Joffrey made her life miserable, Sandor cared about her and saved her from rape but also scared the crap out of her, Lancel partook in her humiliation, Tyrion was kind because he's a good person and he didn't rape her, Ramsay raped and beat her for months on end, LF implemented her in the murder of Joffrey, isolated her from everyone, kissed her against her will, orchestrated the downfall of her family, manipulated her into marrying Ramsay and keeps making advances despite her rejections. Oh wow, Sansa's so lucky, the men in her life weren't quite as horrible as they could have been.

The only man who was genuine in caring for her without expecting anything in return was Theon, who grew up with the Starks and came to realize he cared about them more than his biological family. All of them and not just Sansa. I guess you could count the Hound as well if you can get over some of his shadier behavior. In the end, the two people who saved Sansa were Theon and Brienne, and Brienne is no man.

I can't believe this is actually being used to compare Sansa and Dany's situations. Jorah spent 15 years working for Varys for a chance to get home, and he completely blew the possibility of accomplishing it by turning on Varys for Dany and saved her life multiple times in the process. Drogo went from not understanding why the rape of slave women bothered Dany to forbidding it in the span of a literal minute. Daario killed his fellow captains and gave Dany their heads so she wouldn't lose any men against the mercenaries, whom he turned to her cause because he fell in love with her. Daario, the bloodthirsty mercenary, is also now staying behind and ensuring Meereen stays stable lol. Tyrion had to warn Dany not to commit genocide twice and not to turn into her father twice as well, but, despite being seriously disturbed by her actions this season as well, he's now in love with her. Jon gives away his kingdom after Dany agrees to an alliance because he's in love with her. 

Yeah, no difference at all.

Lancel & Ramsay don't count as men who've given Sansa anything but if you're going to bring them up, then you should consider that Dany was kidnapped by a khalasar that threatened to gang rape her, and that even though Jorah and Daario showed up to rescue her, Dany ended up saving herself by burning the Khal and his "inner court" alive. Or that Sansa had 4 loving brothers including the half-brother that she looked down at growing up, but Dany was brought up by Viserys "Joffrey" Targaryen who cooly threatened her with gang-rape and wanted to cut her foetus out of her belly. 

As for Drogo? Dany never got anything from him. He might have "fallen in love with her", but it certainly gave her nothing since he died, leaving her arguably worse off that she was before she married him and it was her walking through fire by herself, her own will and her belief in her own power, that hatched her dragon eggs. Let's not discount that their "Perfect Love" started with him repeatedly ass-raping her, and that she basically Stockholm-Syndromed herself into falling in love with him or commit suicide.   

Jorah saved Dany’s life ONCE. And considering that her life was in danger in the first place because he was spying on her, then I think his rescue of her just barely cancelled out his betrayal of her. 

Dany has done more rescuing of the people in her life than the other way around. 

I'll give you Daario though. But that is one case of a man choosing Dany because of his love/lust for her without her first: proving herself to him or being endangered by him. Meanwhile, Sandor saved Sansa from Lolly's fate just because. He held back himself from raping her at the Battle of Blackwater, again because she was so "birdlike" and innocent. Littlefinger's obsession with Sansa is the reason why she's still alive, and doesn't have her neck decorating a pike for Joffrey's murder. Or Sky-Flying from the Vale. Or if you take the show as "canon", currently enjoying Ramsay's husbandly attentions to her. 

The show  changed Tyrion because of Dinklage's gravitas so even though we don't get to see the perverseness of him fondling her boobs on TV, he still refuses to have sex with her, despite the pressure from his family to get her pregnant and his own ambitions to be Lord of Winterfell. Heck, Tyrion didn't even let Precious Speshul Sansa to have a Bedding.                 

 

As she herself declared in the last episode, no man has ever rescued Daenerys Targaryen from a situation that she hadn't first bargained, fought, clawed herself out or literally set herself on fire to prevail over.

[shireenbamfatheon]

1 minute ago, Eyes High said:

It's not about how horrible the guys are. The point is that Sansa hasn't earned anything on her own; it's all been through men helping her, two of whom only did so because they're in love with her. Sandor told her how to deal with Joffrey and saved her during the riot. Tyrion saved her from Joffrey-ordered beatings and refused to consummate the marriage against her will (which apparently made it automatically void in the show). LF got her out of KL. LF saved her from Lysa. Theon saved her from Myranda and allowed her to escape Winterfell. Jon won her back Winterfell.

All that's well and good--all of the main characters have benefited from others' assistance--but to criticize Dany because the only reason she supposedly achieves anything is that men are falling all over themselves to help her while simultaneously saying that this isn't true of Sansa is ridiculous.

 

Sansa's character isn't about earning anything except a decent life, which she more than deserves at this point. Not everyone in the show is some major player destined to reunite the realm or kill WW. Some are just normal people who want happy lives. And it's not like Sansa's going around recounting how awesome she is and how she deserves everything handed to her on a plate. She was quite happy to tell Bran he's the Lord of Winterfell. Girl is finally safe in a place where she can make decisions without getting the crap beat out of her at every turn. That's all she has and that's all she wants. I don't see what's so special about this that you feel it's unearned. If anything, Sansa had the opportunity to run away with Jon but she persuaded him to stay and fight with her, knowing that recapture meant endless rape and torture at the hands of Ramsay. And she risked it. That's brave, so in that regard, Sansa did earn her home. Other than that, she has nothing. 

Sandor gave her advice which she followed, but she did the actual hard work. It's not like Sandor solved all her problems when he gave her advice that one time. Tyrion saved her from beatings because he's a decent human being, and not because he's in love with her. Not raping her had nothing to do with being in love with her. He clearly loved Shae in the show. LF got her out of KL after he involved her in Joffrey's murder because it put her entirely in his hands and gave him absolute control over her. You say it like he did it out of the goodness of his heart, and not because he had his own plans for her. And those plans, marrying her off to Ramsay, turned out to be more brutal than anything she'd suffered so far. 

Dany canonically is the one who has most men in love with her. Jorah, Drogo, Daario, Tyrion (according to Dinklage) and eventually Jon are/will fall in love with Dany without having ulterior motives or devious intentions. Jorah isn't creepy like in the books and doesn't just see her as a substitute for his wife, Tyrion isn't super fucked up like in the books, Daario and his crew don't turn on her like their book counterparts etc. I'm not arguing that everything Dany has is because of her dragons, that's not it at all, but of the men who spent more than just a few episodes with her, Grey Worm and Barristan are the only ones who weren't in love with her, and these two are/were still smitten, just in a platonic manner.

[Colorful Mess]

16 hours ago, MadMouse said:

Anyone notice this during Dany's and Jon's conversation?  Jon talks about how Tyrion likes talking and she says "He's good at it. We all like doing what we're good at.". Jon replies with "I don't".  Go back to the conversation between Dany and Barristan when he tells her "Rhaegar never liked killing. He loved singing."

And that makes me wonder: What DOES Jon like? Rolling around with Ghost? Hanging out with his family? Cunnilingus? What would he do if he wasn't gearing up for war?

Maybe his favorite past time is emulating his father - yup I'm going to keep calling Ned his father. Someone else put it perfectly - "Rhaegar was just the sperm donor." Jon would really benefit from an adoptive kids support group.

[shireenbamfatheon]

27 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

Lancel & Ramsay don't count as men who've given Sansa anything but if you're going to bring them up, then you should consider that Dany was kidnapped by a khalasar that threatened to gang rape her, and that even though Jorah and Daario showed up to rescue her, Dany ended up saving herself by burning the Khal and his "inner court" alive. Or that Sansa had 4 loving brothers including the half-brother that she looked down at growing up, but Dany was brought up by Viserys "Joffrey" Targaryen who cooly threatened her with gang-rape and wanted to cut her foetus out of her belly. 

As for Drogo? Dany never got anything from him. He might have "fallen in love with her", but it certainly gave her nothing since he died, leaving her arguably worse off that she was before she married him and it was her walking through fire by herself, her own will and her belief in her own power, that hatched her dragon eggs. Let's not discount that their "Perfect Love" started with him repeatedly ass-raping her, and that she basically Stockholm-Syndromed herself into falling in love with him or commit suicide.   

Jorah saved Dany’s life ONCE. And considering that her life was in danger in the first place because he was spying on her, then I think his rescue of her just barely cancelled out his betrayal of her. 

Dany has done more rescuing of the people in her life than the other way around. 

I'll give you Daario though. But that is one case of a man choosing Dany because of his love/lust for her without her first: proving herself to him or being endangered by him. Meanwhile, Sandor saved Sansa from Lolly's fate just because. He held back himself from raping her at the Battle of Blackwater, again because she was so "birdlike" and innocent. Littlefinger's obsession with Sansa is the reason why she's still alive, and doesn't have her neck decorating a pike for Joffrey's murder. Or Sky-Flying from the Vale. Or if you take the show as "canon", currently enjoying Ramsay's husbandly attentions to her. 

The show  changed Tyrion because of Dinklage's gravitas so even though we don't get to see the perverseness of him fondling her boobs on TV, he still refuses to have sex with her, despite the pressure from his family to get her pregnant and his own ambitions to be Lord of Winterfell. Heck, Tyrion didn't even let Precious Speshul Sansa to have a Bedding.                 

 

As she herself declared in the last episode, no man has ever rescued Daenerys Targaryen from a situation that she hadn't first bargained, fought, clawed herself out or literally set herself on fire to prevail over.

As a Khal’s widow meant to join the rest of the crones, Dany didn’t actually risk suffering rape at all. That’s why she was so confident when she was first introduced to the khals. Not at all similar to Lancel who partook in Sansa’s sexual abuse when she was publically stripped and beaten, Joffrey who was planning on raping her to punish her as he said so on her wedding day, and Ramsay, who did actually rape her for months.

And Sandor was never going to rape Sansa. It’s emphasized more than once in the books that Sandor isn’t a rapist and is the opposite of his brother in this regard. They also did away with Sandor’s love for Sansa in the show likely because of the age difference. In the books, Sandor speaks out during Sansa’s abuse, in the show he doesn’t. In the books, he's furious at himself for not saving her from the Lannisters, in the show he never mentions it. 

They didn’t change Tyrion for Sansa’s benefit, they changed him for his benefit because they’ve gone out of their way to whitewash Tyrion. Tyrion has raped two women in the books, but in the show they had a sex slave offer him free sex because he was so special. It's got nothing to do with Sansa being special. Show!Tyrion wouldn't rape anyone, book!Tyrion threatens to have Tommen raped and then laments that he'll have to go through with it.

If LF wasn't so obsessed with Sansa, she'd have been safe in Highgarden married to Willas Tyrell who's well-liked by everyone and by all accounts a decent human being, but because LF is so obsessed with her, he went to Tywin and told him about the Tyrells' plan to whisk her away, and instead got her involved in Joffrey's death so she'd have no one but him to rely on and nowhere to go. You think Sansa wants to be in the Vale with LF touching her all the time? LF didn't save Sansa, the Tyrells were going to for her claim.

Since when did this become a discussion about the books? If you really want to to go down that route, Dany was in shock for like a whole day and needed to be alone when Mero pulled her off her horse in aSoS before Barristan saved her ass. She was shook as hell when Daario got inside her rooms. She was on the verge of crying when that kid came at her after she told him she wouldn't punish slaves for raping his mom. Dany has plenty of help and people saving her in the books, and it doesn't diminish her accomplishment because no one gets anywhere without help. It's a simple fact of life and what makes book!Dany likable as opposed to show!Dany who's presented as a "strong independent woman who needs no one" when everything she has is because of dragons and magic, as opposed to book!Dany who deals with actual repercussions for her actions and acknowledges her flaws.

Drogo gave Dany the means to perform a blood sacrifice to wake dragons out of stone. Before that, he stopped rape on her behalf despite it being a natural part of his culture according to him and agreed to invade Westeros for her.

Jorah saved her from the wineseller’s poison and from Drogo’s blood riders trying to kill her in season one alone.

Yeah, Dany is a strong independent woman who needs no one and only got this far because of her own actions, and not the help of anyone… Except:

Season one -> Getting dragon eggs, Jorah ousting the wineseller, Jorah saving her from bloodriders.

Season two -> Being let into Qarth because of dragons, escaping House of the Undying because of dragons.

Season three -> Getting saved from a mantis by Barristan who was sent to her because of dragons, getting Unsullied because of dragons, Daario getting into her rooms but not assassinating her because he’s smitten with her because of dragons.

Season four -> Getting safely away from a revolt because of Unsullied (but Sandor saving Sansa from similar circumstances is her not earning her current position).

Season five -> Being saved from Sons of the Harpy by Drogon

Season six -> Getting a Dothraki horde because of special fire powers and resistance to smoke inhalation and a collapsing building. Being saved from war in Meereen because of dragons, which she could not previously control but now can without any effort on her part.

Season seven -> Failing miserably at war and only gains victory because of dragons in the next episode.

If only Sansa was lucky enough to get dragon eggs and cruel enough to burn a slave woman alive to birth them after the slave woman had been sodomized by multiple men because Sansa wanted power over a continent she’d never been to. Well, now that Dany can admit she was raped, let’s hope she finds it in herself to acknowledge that her dragons are the product of her burning a slave alive for revolting against her slave masters. Not holding my breath though.

This whole discussion is silly. It was never about who's suffered the most. Someone said it was ridiculous that everyone kept falling in love with Dany and then someone else jumped in because "yeah well, what about Sansa????" which has become a trend on this site ever since people started shipping Jonsa. Or it's just a coincidence that Joanerys shippers and Dany fans keep bringing her up in discussions that have nothing to do with her just to illustrate how much better Dany is. 

[YaddaYadda]

10 minutes ago, doram said:

I don't think it's that simple.  Rhaegar possibly jeopardised his own victory by sending his best Kingsguard to protect Jon and his mother. Whatever his fault, or his obsession, he loved his son. 

Meanwhile, I don't doubt that Ned loved Jon but he also brought him up as a bastard and sent him to the Wall so that he (Ned) would never have to stand up to his child-killing BFF.

I don't think anything is that simple either. Like I said before, until we got Jaime's POV about what happened and why he killed Aerys, he was basically the scum who murdered his king in cold blood. Things are a lot more complicated than the little threads we have been given. 

I hope we do get the reason Ned sent Jon to the Wall though when he could have as easily sent him to one of his bannermen to be fostered. It's not like there is no precedent for it since Larence Snow is fostered at Deepwood Motte. Castle Cerwyn is half a day's ride from Winterfell, and Ned could have as easily sent Jon to stay there. I find the whole he sent him to the Wall so that he wouldn't father children, wear no crowns to be over simple.

[Katsullivan]

7 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

This whole discussion is silly. It was never about who's suffered the most. Someone said it was ridiculous that everyone kept falling in love with Dany and then someone else jumped in because "yeah well, what about Sansa????" which has become a trend on this site ever since people started shipping Jonsa. Or it's just a coincidence that Joanerys shippers and Dany fans keep bringing her up in discussions that have nothing to do with her just to illustrate how much better Dany is. 

 

So basically, a Sansa fan (because that's who it was) criticised Dany and a Dany fan pointed out the hypocrisy in that ---- and you conclude that it's the Dany fans who keep bringing Sansa up?

I can't even be bothered to counter that list because there's so much in it that's contrived - you're equating the Unsullied whom Dany liberated to Sandor who just liked Sansa because ... she was pretty and could sing? You're also counting Drogon and Dany's dragons - and Dany's fire-proofness - amongst the list of men in love with her and not as an extension of herself.

 

By the way, Sansa also had her magical creature - she had Lady. Whom she lost through her own actions. 

It's never been about who suffered the most. It's about which female character has had more agency from her own actions and/or powers and which female character is merely a pawn or object in other men's stories. Dany's the former, Sansa's the latter.