Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[benteen]

4 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

THIS. All day long.

What is Sansa's problem when it comes to not trusting Jon, regularly having negative thoughts about him, and blaming him for things that he hasn't even done? Short of kissing her feet and begging her to take over, I don't know what exactly it is that she was expecting. He gave her the option and she didn't take it. Now he's the one who supposedly isn't appreciative? (For all her thoughts of Jon not being appreciative of her, there are certainly times where she doesn't appear to appreciate him.) Does she really expect Jon to tell the room that they should follow Sansa when she only just told Jon that she thinks it should be him? Does she want Jon to listen to her and take her at her word when she says something or not?

Goodness, this girl has frustrated me this season when it comes to her treatment of people who are on her side or potentially on her side.

My other concern is that Sansa will remember or bring up Catelyn's fears about Jon and use that to justify any continued suspicions that she has regarding whether or not he's trustworthy. I'd hate the thought of Sansa treating Jon with icy courtesy just because she couldn't admit to him in their conversation that she desperately wants to be QitN.

Littlefinger is probably going to laugh his ass off when he finds out what's going on in King's Landing. I can't decide how he can best work that situation to his advantage. Obviously he's smart enough to not want to book passage on Cersei's Titanic reign but I wonder if he'll head down to see what's up or if he's done teleporting to KL for the foreseeable future. 

Regarding where Cersei goes from here, I don't have any clue apart from a possible flight to Castery Rock eventually. What does she want? What's the point in taking over? She doesn't care about the people, she hates the city, she has no children to carry on the line, no heir, no goals, etc. What's the point? Why not just live in a nicer castle, build a vineyard, and rule the Westerlands?

I wonder if Jaime will try to talk her off of the ledge or if he already knows that it's too late. I wonder what Cersei expects of Jaime? Will he still be a member of the Kingsguard? 

Yeah, I don't understand why Sansa doesn't trust Jon at all.  He went to war for her.  He acknowledged she was right that they didn't have more men and asked her if she knew another army but she refused to tell him.  He later acknowledges that she won the battle and offers her their parents room, telling her she is now Lady of Winterfell.  She apologizes for withholding information and Jon isn't mad, he just gives her reasonable advice that they need to trust one another.

The only mistake I see Jon making last night was not asking Sansa to stand up with him while he took his curtain call.  Otherwise, Sansa's main problem with Jon seems to be that he doesn't get down on his knees and kiss her ass.

I think Cersei is just insane.  She's lost everything and gave up on Tommen and now she just wants to rule.  Power was always a dream of hers.  It's not logical but Cersei has never been a logical woman.  Though her powerbase is VERY small.  She has Casterly Rock and MAYBE the Stormlands?  Wildfire and fear will keep King's Landing in line for the time being.  But she'll have to make some kind of alliance if she wants to hold power.  Euron seems the logical choice but I can't see either of them trusting the other.  Jaime will no doubt lose his shit over that idea.

[Alapaki]

I also saw Sansa's final look as worrisome.  Littlefinger, probably knowing (or at least suspecting) that the Northern Houses would unite around a male heir (ironically shamed into it by the female heir to Bear Island), planted the misdirection about how Sansa was really the obvious choice.  Now he can say, "gee, I kind of told you.  Had you been there as both Lady of Wintefell and de facto Queen of the Vale, they'd have respected you".  All of which is bullshit, I think, but still possibly a compelling argument for Sansa to hear after all she's been through.

I'm not sure who Cersei has backing her at this point.  I'm not sure which "elders" are left in the Westlands, but her having killed Kevan is not going to sit well.  Plus, I don't think the Lannisters have the forces to defeat an assault by the Tyrells or whichever House emerges as the Lord of the Reach.  She probably can't even defeat whatever force Euron could put together.  

Speaking of which, I'm not sure what motivation Euron could have for sacking Oldtown at this point given that his main objective is to get to Dany and he knows he has to beat Yara and Theon.  

And I agree that unless Dany gets either sidetracked or completely benched for Season 7, and unless they introduce Euron's Dragon-horn, I really don't see how Dany has anything more than a cake-walk into Westeros.  She really doesn't even need to land any of her ground forces, just hide the Dragons and lure the opposing army into battle array to deny her a landing.  Then shake-and-bake.

[Funzlerks]

For the love of everything could Danerys please marry Robyn?  Oh my god, that would be the best thing ever.  He's single.  He has the best fighting force save for the Martells.  He's young and biddable.  He likes to execute people and has a wicked sense of humor.

So, the way things are lining up, what could stop Dany?  Only like twelve Lannister servants and Gregor would stand up for Cersei when faced with dragons and whatnot, so how is conquering Westeros going to be any problem?  Like maybe it will take a while to walk to the Red Keep with everyone cheering and shaking her hand, so Danerys has to hop on a dragon?  

I feel like the White Walker stuff is going to start very quickly.  Nothing Danerys has done, as little as I like her, has suggested she wouldn't fight them at first chance, so I am left wondering where the conflict is.  Maybe it is like Jon and Sansa and I don't see conflict on screen and have to be told about it later.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Funzlerks

[Alapaki]

4 minutes ago, Funzlerks said:

For the love of everything could Danerys please marry Robyn?  Oh my god, that would be the best thing ever.  He's single.  He has the best fighting force save for the Martells.  He's young and biddable.  He likes to execute people and has a wicked sense of humor.

And she could have her dragons catch every poor soul the dimwit sends out the Moon-door.

[Eyes High]

Sansa vs. Jon: I think there's a big difference between private and public acknowledgment. If Jon had said in front of the gathering of Northern lords everything he had told her in private, it would have been a very different story. As it stands, he said not one word about her contributions to the gathering, did not demur or argue when the Northern lords (and lady) spoke and acted as if Sansa wasn't there, and apart from looking at her to gauge whether she was okay with him claiming the KITN title, he allowed it to play out as it did. I don't think Sansa needs her ass kissed, but she had it drilled into her head in KL by Joffrey, Cersei, and the Hound that she was a stupid girl (she even calls herself a "stupid girl" in 6x10, albeit in the past tense), and Ramsay's abuse no doubt included psychological abuse, so I'm guessing it's more important to her than it would be to the average person to feel acknowledged and appreciated.

When Littlefinger points out in the godswood that the North should rally around her and not a "motherless bastard," Sansa doesn't respond, but the look on her face suggests that she is taking this information in, just as she did when Littlefinger reminded her earlier in the season that Jon was only her half-brother. When she was looking at Littlefinger at the end, it seemed as if she was rethinking his earlier words. That doesn't mean that she'll begin plotting against Jon or anything, but the words from the showrunners and three lead Winterfell actors (Kit, Liam and Sophie) suggest that there will be conflict and tension next year.

[benteen]

Not allowing Sansa to have a curtain call with him was Jon's mistake last night, I agree with that. 

Cersei faces another problem.  Tywin told her in Season 4 that the Lannister gold mines dried up years ago.  So no many and few allies means her reign is going to be a spectacular shit storm.  Even LH was talking about that last night.

[Bean421]

11 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Sansa vs. Jon: I think there's a big difference between private and public acknowledgment. If Jon had said in front of the gathering of Northern lords everything he had told her in private, it would have been a very different story. As it stands, he said not one word about her contributions to the gathering, did not demur or argue when the Northern lords (and lady) spoke and acted as if Sansa wasn't there, and apart from looking at her to gauge whether she was okay with him claiming the KITN title, he allowed it to play out as it did. I don't think Sansa needs her ass kissed, but she had it drilled into her head in KL by Joffrey, Cersei, and the Hound that she was a stupid girl (she even calls herself a "stupid girl" in 6x10, albeit in the past tense), and Ramsay's abuse no doubt included psychological abuse, so I'm guessing it's more important to her than it would be to the average person to feel acknowledged and appreciated.

 

Maybe he'll do that after all the chanting KITN is done. Jon's main concern is still the WW. It just seems pretty petty that Sansa is always *thisclose* to turning on Jon for not reading her mind. Pretty realistic for a teenage girl but frustrating to watch play out.

[SeanC]

16 minutes ago, Bean421 said:

Maybe he'll do that after all the chanting KITN is done. Jon's main concern is still the WW. It just seems pretty petty that Sansa is always *thisclose* to turning on Jon for not reading her mind. Pretty realistic for a teenage girl but frustrating to watch play out.

It seems to me, from their statements, that the writers' view of this story is noticeably different from how it comes across onscreen.  Benioff (I think) basically repeated Sansa's argument about how she was ignored and not called upon in the 609 war council in the Inside the Episode, so it seems like they consider that a legitimate error on Jon's part -- granted, it is dumb for him to not specifically seek out all information about Ramsay, but there's no reason that I can see why Sansa would have needed to be called upon.  She didn't in 605.  It seems like they view Sansa as being frozen out to a much greater extent than the narrative makes it seem like.

[Eyes High]

27 minutes ago, Bean421 said:

Maybe he'll do that after all the chanting KITN is done. Jon's main concern is still the WW. It just seems pretty petty that Sansa is always *thisclose* to turning on Jon for not reading her mind. Pretty realistic for a teenage girl but frustrating to watch play out.

I don't think that Sansa's behaviour is entirely attributable to teenage girl stuff. Sansa is probably very vigilant for anything less than complete and utter trust, respect, love and support from Jon, because she's been screwed over so many times by people who claimed to care about her, and because she's so accustomed to being treated like an idiot child. I think she sets the bar for Jon very high as a result of her experiences, and unfortunately Jon as someone who wants Sansa's love and trust has the task of trying to navigate all of her emotional issues stemming from her abuse. It's not Jon's fault that she endured all of that and has these issues, but if he truly wants her to trust him, he's going to have to meet her where she's comfortable. Sansa's going to be watching him very closely for any sign that he's going to disappoint her at best or turn on her at worst, because pretty much everyone has in her mind at one point or another.

It will be funny in Season 7 to watch big, dumb, beautiful cinnamon roll Jon blithely blunder along and unknowingly trample on Sansa's feelings while Sansa just gets madder and madder until steam is coming out of her ears cartoon-style.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Eyes High

[MarySNJ]

23 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Sansa vs. Jon: I think there's a big difference between private and public acknowledgment. If Jon had said in front of the gathering of Northern lords everything he had told her in private, it would have been a very different story. As it stands, he said not one word about her contributions to the gathering, did not demur or argue when the Northern lords (and lady) spoke and acted as if Sansa wasn't there, and apart from looking at her to gauge whether she was okay with him claiming the KITN title, he allowed it to play out as it did. I don't think Sansa needs her ass kissed, but she had it drilled into her head in KL by Joffrey, Cersei, and the Hound that she was a stupid girl (she even calls herself a "stupid girl" in 6x10, albeit in the past tense), and Ramsay's abuse no doubt included psychological abuse, so I'm guessing it's more important to her than it would be to the average person to feel acknowledged and appreciated.

When Littlefinger points out in the godswood that the North should rally around her and not a "motherless bastard," Sansa doesn't respond, but the look on her face suggests that she is taking this information in, just as she did when Littlefinger reminded her earlier in the season that Jon was only her half-brother. When she was looking at Littlefinger at the end, it seemed as if she was rethinking his earlier words. That doesn't mean that she'll begin plotting against Jon or anything, but the words from the showrunners and three lead Winterfell actors (Kit, Liam and Sophie) suggest that there will be conflict and tension next year.

Can you provide a link? What I recall from the various interviews was that there was some conflict this season, I.e., sibling rivalry and some resentment on Sansa's part because Jon wouldn't listen to her (I call BS on that but, that's how it was written), but as Sophie put it, ultimately "Sansa's got Jon's back." 

I think Sansa is not at all interested in being Queen in the North, or the South for that matter. What I think she wants for now is to be safe in her home and be acknowledged for her contributions by the person who matters most in her life right now, her "brother". Jon did acknowledge that Sansa was who the Vale army came for and therefore deserving of being Lady of Winterfell. Sansa understands now that Jon will keep his word as he did exactly what he promised he would do - make it so that Ramsay would never touch her again. He also deferred to her in the manner of Ramsay's execution. There was some lack of trust between them earlier this season, but the battle and the aftermath caused them to have a better understanding of each other. Jon's statement that they need to trust each other sealed with a brotherly kiss, and her seeming genuine happiness for Jon being declared KitN, I think indicated that they were on the same side. 

A couple of important bits of dialog (paraphrased):

Jon:. My father said that you make your friends on the battlefield. (I think this applies to Sansa as well as the men who were fighting.)

Sansa: I used to come here (to the Godswood) everyday and pray to leave; for things I wanted. Not for the things I had. I was a stupid girl. (I think what she wants now is to be HOME and safe). 

Sansa is well aware that Littlefinger can't be trusted, and I think she would like to outsmart him and maybe was a little satisfied that he didn't get what he wanted in the North. OTOH, Littlefinger will try to work the situation to his own benefit, and whether he takes revenge on Sansa for thwarting his plans, or just tries to sabotage Jon is yet to be seen. I think Sansa is well aware that he will try something, hence her worried expression when she saw the barely concealed rage on his face. 

[SeanC]

As I posted over in the TV v. Book thread, I have to wonder if the Season 6 finale wasn't signalling a Jon/Dany pairing pretty hard, what with Daario being discarded because Dany may need to marry for political purposes in the same episode that Jon is proclaimed King in the North.  Amongst the show's main cast (the show pretty consistently focuses only on the main cast), the choices for eligible gentlemen are pretty thin otherwise.

Now, maybe that was just a way to get rid of Daario and nonviolently reduced the cast, but all the same.

[Eyes High]

10 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

Can you provide a link? What I recall from the various interviews was that there was some conflict this season, I.e., sibling rivalry and some resentment on Sansa's part because Jon wouldn't listen to her (I call BS on that but, that's how it was written), but as Sophie put it, ultimately "Sansa's got Jon's back." 

There is a link to the video and quotes from the video posted upthread. Here are the actors' quotes again, though:

Kit: "Thrones is really at the heart of it about dysfunctional families (...) I think Jon is oblivious (...) He's not listening, watching and observing her. I think that could be a real problem for him."

Liam: "I think he's definitely entitled to be running Winterfell, although Sansa might have a problem with it, I fear. Her relationship with Jon Snow, I think, is an indication of what's to come, and I'm not sure it's going to be pretty."

Sophie: "He's named KITN and she kinda gets no credit for it. Jon doesn't acknowledge everything his sister has done for him. (...) Jon, he's so naive, so Sansa's just a little bit agitated is all."

It's telling I think that all three actors (Kit, Sophie and Liam) were all saying the same thing, and Benioff also hinted at tension between the two next season in the Inside the Episode video. I don't think it's necessarily world-ending stuff--Sophie and Benioff are clear that Sansa does love Jon--but it seems like that conflict will fuel Jon and Sansa's arc next season, with Littlefinger trying to stir up conflict between them. Otherwise, why keep LF around in the North? If Sansa were truly done with LF and free of his influence--and all indications are that she is not--he would have been sent packing or he would have been killed off. He's being kept alive by the writers for a reason, and I'm guessing that reason is to stir up trouble. It helps LF that Sansa is feeling pretty isolated right now, what with the Northern lords treating her as if she isn't even present when they're praising Jon.

Quote

I have to wonder if the Season 6 finale wasn't signalling a Jon/Dany pairing pretty hard

I wondered the same thing.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Eyes High

[Skeeter22]

I would be completely shocked if the show didn't try to milk the Sansa/Jon/Littlefinger triangle for all its worth. I expect Littlefinger to lose, but he's going to go down swinging. 

[paigow]

5 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

I think Sansa is well aware that he will try something, hence her worried expression when she saw the barely concealed rage on his face. 

Littlefinger: [Internal Monologue] You can only betray me once...your tiny brain cannot defeat me...prepare for humiliation that will make you beg for death 

[Eyes High]

11 minutes ago, Skeeter22 said:

I would be completely shocked if the show didn't try to milk the Sansa/Jon/Littlefinger triangle for all its worth. I expect Littlefinger to lose, but he's going to go down swinging. 

Littlefinger's only real advantage is that he can position himself as the only one on Sansa's side and the only one protecting her interests, now that everyone else--even Lord Royce--willingly passed her over in favour of Jon. I don't expect him to win, but it won't be as simple as "Jon and Sansa love and trust each other the end." It seems like Season 7 will be a battle for Sansa's soul, with Jon as the human golden retriever angel and Littlefinger as the manipulative, power-hungry devil on Sansa's shoulders.

Sansa dismissed Littlefinger's dream of her on the Iron Throne as a "pretty picture," but I'm guessing seeking the support of someone whose fondest wish is to make you queen must be looking a lot more attractive in light of what went down at the Northern lords' gathering.

As for Sansa's glassy smile when everyone was shouting KITN, Sansa's too well bred to make a fuss in public (number one rule of ladying is never show strong emotions in public), but that doesn't mean she was happy. Cat wasn't happy about Robb being named KITN, either, but she still offered him an encouraging little smile when he looked to her for approval the same way Jon looked to Sansa.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Eyes High

[Audreythe2nd]

30 minutes ago, SeanC said:

As I posted over in the TV v. Book thread, I have to wonder if the Season 6 finale wasn't signalling a Jon/Dany pairing pretty hard, what with Daario being discarded because Dany may need to marry for political purposes in the same episode that Jon is proclaimed King in the North.  Amongst the show's main cast (the show pretty consistently focuses only on the main cast), the choices for eligible gentlemen are pretty thin otherwise.

Now, maybe that was just a way to get rid of Daario and nonviolently reduced the cast, but all the same.

Weirder still was that it was also signalling a Tyrion/Daenerys thing even harder as well.

[Spartan Girl]

44 minutes ago, SeanC said:

As I posted over in the TV v. Book thread, I have to wonder if the Season 6 finale wasn't signalling a Jon/Dany pairing pretty hard, what with Daario being discarded because Dany may need to marry for political purposes in the same episode that Jon is proclaimed King in the North.  Amongst the show's main cast (the show pretty consistently focuses only on the main cast), the choices for eligible gentlemen are pretty thin otherwise.

Now, maybe that was just a way to get rid of Daario and nonviolently reduced the cast, but all the same.

I don't know.  Jon's pretty much been confirmed as her nephew, so that would be kind of gross.  Granted, the Targaryens are no strangers to incest, but still.

I'd be okay with Tyrion/Dany.  Or Dany/Yara.

I wonder what the odds are that Arya will finally reunite with Jon, Sansa, and/or Bran next season.

[Advance35]

I think Sansa is in a very congested place right now.   I don't think she knows what she really wants other then safety.  I don't doubt she loves Jon and I don't think she would side with outsiders against him, no matter how frustrated she gets but I do think she wants more for herself.   She's not Queen in the North, what is she now?  Jon Snow's ward?   Winterfell (if we want to get technical and I don't think he'd EVER press the point) is his.  The North by election, is his.   I don't know what the hell that makes Sansa.   I think Sansa is going to be very interesting in the inevitable power grab that will come about when Dany, Tyrion, Olenna, Ellaria and their forces all congregate.  There are still the Riverlands to be sorted.   Emotions can't be turned on and off.  I think Sansa wants to trust Jon, but she can't truly trust or open up to ANYONE.   That may change if she survives Cersei due to Jon's protection.   I see Sansa ULTIMATELY siding with the side of the angels, but I think there will be more drama before she gets there.

Cersei is not the only Queen I think is in trouble.  Olenna Tyrell CAN NOT hold Highgarden.  There is the issue of succession.  Ambitious bannerman are in every Kingdom, I would assume that goes double for a status hungry place like the Reach.   I think she just wants to hold out enough to see Cersei fall.

I don't think Jon AND Dany will both survive the Otherpocalypse.  And Dany can't have children so there are MUCH more politics to come I'm sure.  Who will be her heir to the Iron Throne when she takes it?

[Eyes High]

42 minutes ago, Audreythe2nd said:

Weirder still was that it was also signalling a Tyrion/Daenerys thing even harder as well.

Seemed pretty one-sided, but yes.

[Alapaki]

The Riverlands are a question mark, I think.  I'm guessing that having Walder Frey namedrop Edmure suggests that we'll see more of this area before the end.  But given the focus of the main conflicts, I think that narratively the story could be wrapped up without any further attention being paid.

Will any of the Tully forces set aside the fact that Edmure forced them to surrender and care enough to try to free him (assuming the Frey forces there become pre-occupied with their own succession issues at the Twins)?

Surely there are other semi-major Houses in the Neck and Riverlands who'd like to claim Riverrun, in addition to the Ironborn potentially staking a claim.  

Was Littlefinger given Wardenship over the Riverlands in the show?  If so, he could prevail upon the Vale forces to essentially annex Riverrun, and offer a combined alliance that covers most of the geographical center of Westeros to the highest bidder.  

Perhaps Arya plays a role in Edmure's rescue?  Maybe the Brotherhood without Banners?

Given that the Lannisters have now picked a fight with Highgarden and (apparently) Dorne, and are about to realize a seaborn threat coming from the East, I highly doubt that they will have the interest or resources in getting back in to the Riverlands right away.

[Winnief]

Quote

Was Littlefinger given Wardenship over the Riverlands in the show?  If so, he could prevail upon the Vale forces to essentially annex Riverrun, and offer a combined alliance that covers most of the geographical center of Westeros to the highest bidder.

He *could* but I doubt LF leaves the North alive next season.  I think his reckoning is finally upon him.

[Edith]

1 hour ago, Bean421 said:

Maybe he'll do that after all the chanting KITN is done. Jon's main concern is still the WW. It just seems pretty petty that Sansa is always *thisclose* to turning on Jon for not reading her mind. Pretty realistic for a teenage girl but frustrating to watch play out.

Not really. I think what Sansa is feeling  actually shows how much she has grown. She wants to be acknowledged as an equal to Jon and not being ignored  because she's a girl. Jon didn't do it but the rest of the northern lords did, especially when there were saying that Jon avenged the Red Wedding...

Is not about being queen or power. Is about having a role in society as somenting more that bearing children but of course you put Littlefinger there an what is is probably a one conversation between J/S to be fix is going to become in a whole season of drama till Sansa fulfill her prophecy.. 

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

As I posted over in the TV v. Book thread, I have to wonder if the Season 6 finale wasn't signalling a Jon/Dany pairing pretty hard, what with Daario being discarded because Dany may need to marry for political purposes in the same episode that Jon is proclaimed King in the North.  Amongst the show's main cast (the show pretty consistently focuses only on the main cast), the choices for eligible gentlemen are pretty thin otherwise.

Now, maybe that was just a way to get rid of Daario and nonviolently reduced the cast, but all the same.

Is funny because I felt the opposite. Jon became KITN because he's the son of Ned Stark. Take that and he holds nothing. The north belongs to Bran. I guess you can say that the north won't rebel because there's a half Stark in the throne but still..

47 minutes ago, Audreythe2nd said:

Weirder still was that it was also signalling a Tyrion/Daenerys thing even harder as well.

Agree! Not only that but with Cersei as the mad queen, Jaime valonqar and probably dying too, Tyrion would become the sole heir of the westernlands..

[Eyes High]

Jaime talked about dying in the arms of the woman he loved. Pretty sure that will be Brienne.

[SeanC]

2 minutes ago, Edith said:

Is funny because I felt the opposite. Jon became KITN because he's the son of Ned Stark. Take that and he holds nothing. The north belongs to Bran. I guess you can say that the north won't rebel because there's a half Stark in the throne but still..

We don't know how widely-known Jon's parentage would ever become.  Regardless, he's proclaimed king, and other than potential angst with Sansa that, however it's resolved, is unlikely to be resolved in terms unfavourable to Jon, I don't see any of his siblings trying to oust him.  If the other Starks assent, why wouldn't the lords?  Particularly since, sadly, Jon is a much more traditionally kingly figure than Bran.

Edited June 27, 2016 by SeanC

[benteen]

Speculation on Arya for Season 7...

Since she's supposed to be a wild card, perhaps Arya targets Dany in Season 7.

It was always my theory for a long time that Arya would be sent by the Faceless Men to kill Dany.  She's a kid and Dany has a weakness for kids in the book.  I thought someone would pay the Faceless Men in order to do this.

Now on the show, suppose she hears about a Targaryen Queen who wants to conquer Westeros, including the North (she considers Starks enemies).  Perhaps Arya attempts to find her and kill her as to not pose a threat to her family.  Just an idea.

[Audreythe2nd]

11 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Jaime talked about dying in the arms of the woman he loved. Pretty sure that will be Brienne.

Yeah... the way that they've plotted this, if Jaime kills Cersei (which I'm still skeptical of, because she has quite a lot of people headed her way - seems like a waste for her not to see it and experience it) there's no way he's dying along with her. They've basically set this thing up so there's no earthly reason why he wouldn't follow his heart after Brienne - no more children/close relatives, an evil Cersei, a bunch of wars he probably didn't want, no more KG duties (I would certainly presume - that look on his face didn't really say, "oh goody, sign me up for THAT!"). The question is how long it takes him to get out of KL, but yeah, I think Brienne and their love story is the loose thread here.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Audreythe2nd

[MarySNJ]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

It seems to me, from their statements, that the writers' view of this story is noticeably different from how it comes across onscreen.  Benioff (I think) basically repeated Sansa's argument about how she was ignored and not called upon in the 609 war council in the Inside the Episode, so it seems like they consider that a legitimate error on Jon's part -- granted, it is dumb for him to not specifically seek out all information about Ramsay, but there's no reason that I can see why Sansa would have needed to be called upon.  She didn't in 605.  It seems like they view Sansa as being frozen out to a much greater extent than the narrative makes it seem like.

THIS. So much.  There's a disconnect between what the writers and actors are telling us, and what they are actually showing us. Maybe Jon not giving Sansa more credit for what she knows was a mistake on his part according to D&D, but when Jon asked her what they should do she said "I don't know." Plus, she had important information she chose not to share with him. 

[SeanC]

18 minutes ago, benteen said:

Speculation on Arya for Season 7...

Since she's supposed to be a wild card, perhaps Arya targets Dany in Season 7.

It was always my theory for a long time that Arya would be sent by the Faceless Men to kill Dany.  She's a kid and Dany has a weakness for kids in the book.  I thought someone would pay the Faceless Men in order to do this.

Now on the show, suppose she hears about a Targaryen Queen who wants to conquer Westeros, including the North (she considers Starks enemies).  Perhaps Arya attempts to find her and kill her as to not pose a threat to her family.  Just an idea.

I don't think Arya is going to progress far enough in her training in the books to be sent to kill Dany.  She's not No One, and can't be.

As far as her being involved with the southern plot in the books, certainly possible, particularly since I think there's a bunch of characters in the Riverlands (Brienne, Sandor, Arya) who will need to be kept away from Winterfell for a while in order to allow the Jon/Sansa/Littlefinger drama to play out.  But I'm not sure about her going to kill Dany, just because, as I observed re: her trying to kill Cersei, how would she possibly fail?  She has the ability to change faces; it seems like she should be able to kill anybody she wants.

[MarySNJ]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

There is a link to the video and quotes from the video posted upthread. Here are the actors' quotes again, though:

Kit: "Thrones is really at the heart of it about dysfunctional families (...) I think Jon is oblivious (...) He's not listening, watching and observing her. I think that could be a real problem for him."

Liam: "I think he's definitely entitled to be running Winterfell, although Sansa might have a problem with it, I fear. Her relationship with Jon Snow, I think, is an indication of what's to come, and I'm not sure it's going to be pretty."

Sophie: "He's named KITN and she kinda gets no credit for it. Jon doesn't acknowledge everything his sister has done for him. (...) Jon, he's so naive, so Sansa's just a little bit agitated is all."

It's telling I think that all three actors (Kit, Sophie and Liam) were all saying the same thing, and Benioff also hinted at tension between the two next season in the Inside the Episode video. I don't think it's necessarily world-ending stuff--Sophie and Benioff are clear that Sansa does love Jon--but it seems like that conflict will fuel Jon and Sansa's arc next season, with Littlefinger trying to stir up conflict between them. Otherwise, why keep LF around in the North? If Sansa were truly done with LF and free of his influence--and all indications are that she is not--he would have been sent packing or he would have been killed off. He's being kept alive by the writers for a reason, and I'm guessing that reason is to stir up trouble. It helps LF that Sansa is feeling pretty isolated right now, what with the Northern lords treating her as if she isn't even present when they're praising Jon.

I wondered the same thing.

Thank you, Eyes High. I maintain that what the show runners and actors are telling us is different than what they are actually showing us.

That being said, Littlefinger will definitely trying to put a wedge between Sansa and Jon, or otherwise sabotage Jon for the sake of Sansa in the expectation that Sansa will play along with his scheme. Sansa knows Littlefinger can't be trusted, and Jon can be trusted but is naive. The question is, do her ambitions go beyond safety at this point? Will she betray Jon even though she knows Littlefinger is really their enemy? 

I'm especially troubled by Sophie's comments. Jon did credit Sansa with bringing in the Vale army in their private conversation, so is she saying that Jon should have publicly credited her? 

I got the impression last season that maybe Littlefinger had more information about the nature of Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship than the "official" version, and maybe he knows or will find out that Jon is not Ned's son. That would certainly throw a monkey wrench into the Northmen's plans and give Jon a reason to step back and let Sansa rule... Although she'd still be second in line behind Bran if they going strictly on the basis of Westerosi primogeniture and succession. 

[Oscirus]

I tend to think that Sansa's outgrown Winterfell and that the recognition that she needs can only be achieved at King's landing. The only question is how she gets there.

Ok, R+L=J, so what? How does that change anything?  Cersei's coronation just showed us that birthright doesn't mean as much as everybody thinks it does.

Dany's definitely getting sidetracked, I don't see her going right to the throne, it's too easy.

Cersei's biggest threat is that she's still sitting on a ton of wildfire and she's shown that she's more then willing to use it if threatened.

[bunnyblue]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

I wonder what the odds are that Arya will finally reunite with Jon, Sansa, and/or Bran next season.

I think the odds are pretty low. Before the episode aired, I felt confident that once Arya killed Walder she'd collect Nymeria and head "home" as she told Jaquen. But the look on her face as she killed Walder tells me that she is too far gone to ever go home. She keeps calling herself Arya Stark but the girl on my screen is more No One than Arya. As much as I hate the idea, I think she will continue working on her list and head to King's Landing for Cersei & the Mountain. She'll probably also run into Melisandre, who is now conveniently heading 'south'. I just can't imagine how this cold-blooded killer could ever fit in at Winterfell with her equally (but differently) damaged siblings. And the idea that she'll never go home pisses me off because one of the things I've desperately wanted was a Jon & Arya reunion before he goes off to battle the Night King.

[Avaleigh]

Something I've been meaning to ask is what happened to the scene that the actress who played Shae was rumored to have filmed? Was it just a bullshit rumor? Was it cut? Will it be included next season? I was super intrigued by this and was disappointed that nothing came of it. It's strange too because I don't even like the Shae character in the show or the books but I thought this might have been interesting. 

The wildfire is a fun wild card and makes me wonder if Dany will accidentally blow up the Red Keep and other areas of King's Landing when she makes her dragon/s attack. Varys knows about what happened at the sept but will they think that all of the wildfire is gone? If they think it's there would they risk an attack? I'm definitely curious as to how this works out.

Also, can wildfire harm a dragon?

I wonder what Littlefinger will make of Dany and if he'd try to make that happen since Sansa isn't interested? I guess he'd be disinclined to try since Varys and Tyrion would both warn her off. Still, I'd like to know what impression she'd make of him in a one on one before she's told anything about him. 

[SeanC]

11 minutes ago, bunnyblue said:

I think the odds are pretty low. Before the episode aired, I felt confident that once Arya killed Walder she'd collect Nymeria and head "home" as she told Jaquen. But the look on her face as she killed Walder tells me that she is too far gone to ever go home. She keeps calling herself Arya Stark but the girl on my screen is more No One than Arya. As much as I hate the idea, I think she will continue working on her list and head to King's Landing for Cersei & the Mountain. She'll probably also run into Melisandre, who is now conveniently heading 'south'. I just can't imagine how this cold-blooded killer could ever fit in at Winterfell with her equally (but differently) damaged siblings. And the idea that she'll never go home pisses me off because one of the things I've desperately wanted was a Jon & Arya reunion before he goes off to battle the Night King.

There's no way Arya doesn't go home.  GRRM has as much as guaranteed we'll see some of the key reunions.

Now, at this point I expect she won't be heading to Winterfell immediately.  And maybe not Bran either, though I'm not clear what exactly Bran would do instead -- chill at Castle Black with Edd?

One thing I will say, now that we're contemplating more Stark reunions, I hope the writers give individual dynamics their due as these -- which is to say, it would be nice to see Arya's reunions with Jon and Sansa structured in a way to let both individual reunions shine, rather than it being a group hug or whatever.  I'd say the same with Bran, though honestly, Bran's relationships with his siblings are kind of undifferentiated in their lovingness.

Edited June 27, 2016 by SeanC

[jjjmoss]

I wonder if any of the following will be promoted to main cast:

Grey Worm (24 eps inc seasons with 7 & 7), Podrick (27 eps inc 7 & 6), Edd (29 eps inc 8 & 7). 

[arjumand]

13 hours ago, Minneapple said:

When Lyanna mentions that Jon's a bastard, Sansa is still smiling. It's not until she sees Littlefinger when all the other Lords declare for Jon that she loses the smile. Littlefinger has that creepy-ass look on his face as usual. *Shudders*

Edited to add:

I am hoping that, since they left some mystery around Rhaegar/Lyanna, that we finally do get a Tournament at Harrenhal episode next year. I've pretty much hoped for this since I don't know when, but I love the idea of seeing the tournament, and Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and Rhaegar scandalizing everyone by crowning Lyanna with the blue winter roses.

I actually watched the scene again, this time paying close attention to Sansa instead of looking at Jon, whose stunned 'the fuck is going on right now? Am I being punk'd?' face is particularly adorable.

And you're right - Sansa is smiling throughout. She doesn't say a word, just smiles, even when Jon looks at her in a sort of pleading way. And you're exactly right as to when she stops - she catches Littlefinger's eye, and that's when the smile turns to OH SHIT. Oh shit, this guy just told me his entire game plan, and now he's regretting it.

I would like Lyanna/Rhaegar flashbacks, but I doubt that's gonna happen, if only for the problem of who are you going to cast as the most handsome prince who ever handsomed, with long white-blond hair and purple eyes (seriously GRRM? No wonder people call the Targaryens the Mary Sues of asoiaf)? At least in our imagination he can be amazing. Like LotR Legolas (not The Hobbit Legolas - Peter Jackson did some weird CGI to Orlando Bloom's face in that).

Edited June 27, 2016 by arjumand

[Eyes High]

The official HBO recap says that Jon and Sansa exchange smiles but that Sansa's smile fades when Jon turns away and that she exchanges a long glance with LF. I think the smile was intended to be seen as a fake. It might not have played that way for some, but I have no doubt that was what the writers and Sophie intended.

I rewatched the KITN scene, and Sansa is not smiling throughout. She is smiling when Lyanna is chewing out the Northern lords, but her smile fades when Lyanna starts in on "We know no king etc. etc." She kind of smiles a little and looks down and then stops smiling. She is not smiling during Manderly's spiel. When Manderly says "Jon Snow avenged the Red Wedding," Sansa looks like she's about to throw up. She is unsmiling during Glover's spiel. There are no close shots of her during the KITN cheering until the pan into Jon and Sansa before he stands, but she is not smiling during that pan. She only smiles when Jon looks at her for reassurance. She is still smiling, albeit in what I think is a fake manner, until Littlefinger catches her eye.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

30 minutes ago, jjjmoss said:

I wonder if any of the following will be promoted to main cast:

Grey Worm (24 eps inc seasons with 7 & 7), Podrick (27 eps inc 7 & 6), Edd (29 eps inc 8 & 7). 

Podrick had maybe four lines all season, I think, so I doubt he's getting promoted.  Poor Edd is probably going to be the only named casualty when the Wall falls, so again, probably not.  Grey Worm, maybe.

Speaking of episode count, this season had an unusually low set of totals for the main cast, with nobody even getting to nine episodes, let alone ten.  However, with the decreased episode count and the massively decreased cast size, I'm wagering we're going to see a good number of people with seven out of seven episodes for Season 7.  There are now basically only three major locations (Winterfell, King's Landing, wherever Dany happens to be) and a few satellite ones, the lowest concentration than at any point since early Season 1.

Edited June 27, 2016 by SeanC

[benteen]

Definitely a decreased number of appearances but we did gets episodes where we spent a lot more time with a particular group of characters so that was a nice tradeoff. 

Of the three characters mentioned, I can see the Grey Worm actor possibly getting a promotion.  MAYBE Euron if he becomes a bigger factor but I think he'll stay as a guest star.

[SeanC]

Also, since we're in the speculation racket: Season 7 is Cersei's last season, Y/N?

[huahaha]

3 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I don't know.  Jon's pretty much been confirmed as her nephew, so that would be kind of gross.  Granted, the Targaryens are no strangers to incest, but still.

I'd be okay with Tyrion/Dany.  Or Dany/Yara.

I'm completely grossed out by Dany's and Jon's choices for partners. 

Dany & Jon: 25% genes shared (obviously, assuming Rhaegar is Jon's father and they don't do a switcheroo to Robert)

Dany & Tyrion: 25% genes shared if he turns out to be Aerys' kid too

Jon & Sansa: 12.5% of genes shared (down from 25%), but marrying anyone who grew up as your sibling (blood or not) is icky. "She never liked him anyway" doesn't much matter.

In my ideal world, Dany sits on the throne by herself and names Jon and Lyanna Mormont's first kid as her successor to seal the alliance.

[benteen]

I would guess Y on Cersei's last season.  I don't see her being part of the fight against the White Walkers at all.  I don't see Littlefinger being part of that fight either.  MAYBE Jaime will be.

Since we are past the books now, I wonder if we will get any new major characters.

[Funzlerks]

How can Cersei last an episode against everyone in the whole world?  Might Cersei not be around for very long?  

And Littlefinger has the Vale, maybe.  How does he leverage anything with the white walkers around?  So, they may team up but still, how do they fight off everyone?  I am early wondering what the story is because right now there doesn't seem much to stop Danerys.  So what will there be for thirteen episodes?

[Eyes High]

4 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Also, since we're in the speculation racket: Season 7 is Cersei's last season, Y/N?

Agreed, although I'd throw in Jaime as well.

[SeanC]

1 minute ago, Eyes High said:

Agreed, although I'd throw in Jaime as well.

Jaime I'm more ambiguous on.  It's possible to me that he gets a hero's demise in the war against the White Walkers, or he may simply die in bringing down Cersei.

[jjjmoss]

I doubt we'll get major new characters as the most major ones this season were in a max of 3 eps.

Main cast:

Heading for the North: Hound

Heading to Winterfell: Brienne, presumably Arya

Winterfell: Queen Sansa, Jon, Melisandre, Davos, Baelish, Tormund
Heading to King's Landing: Tyrion, Dany, Missandei, Theon, Varys
King's Landing: Cersei, Jaime, Bronn
Beyond the Wall: Bran
Oldtown: Sam, Gilly
Braavos: Jaqen
Dorne: Ellaria

Wandering somewhere: Jorah, Gendry

[Eyes High]

4 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Jaime I'm more ambiguous on.  It's possible to me that he gets a hero's demise in the war against the White Walkers, or he may simply die in bringing down Cersei.

Book Cersei's convinced they'll die together, but Book Cersei's been wrong about pretty much everything else. I don't think he'll long outlive her, though.

...I guess it depends on whether there's some sort of reckoning between Bran and Jaime.

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I wonder what the odds are that Arya will finally reunite with Jon, Sansa, and/or Bran next season.

Pretty low. After that look when she killed Walder I can't see Arya going home until she's finished her list and that means heading south and not North. My hunch is she'll run into at least Sandor (it'd somehow be just like Sandor to say "Fuck destiny, I'm going south") and Mel (whether she kills or recruits her is another matter entirely) and perhaps they'll work together on killing Cersei and the Mountain.

I don't think Arya comes home until the very end of the story if she comes home at all...

"You’ll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers."  It is most likely just a smart remark, but if its not you can't say a tragic end wasn't foreshadowed from the first book.

As for Bran... my hunch is he'll be held up either at the Wall or Castle Black initially (maybe he realizes he has to get the mark of the Night King off him first) because him arriving at Winterfell too soon would shut down a lot of the likely Littlefinger induced drama.

2 hours ago, Edith said:

Is funny because I felt the opposite. Jon became KITN because he's the son of Ned Stark. Take that and he holds nothing. The north belongs to Bran. I guess you can say that the north won't rebel because there's a half Stark in the throne but still.

Nah... I think that's where Ned's trueborn daughter actually being Jon's cousin will probably save his butt. My hunch is Littlefinger will try to lay some trap to get what he wants that would be inescapable if Jon and Sansa were truly siblings, but as cousins it presents a "Take the Third Option" way to beat Littlefinger once and for all.

3 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Speaking of episode count, this season had an unusually low set of totals for the main cast, with nobody even getting to nine episodes, let alone ten.  However, with the decreased episode count and the massively decreased cast size, I'm wagering we're going to see a good number of people with seven out of seven episodes for Season 7.  There are now basically only three major locations (Winterfell, King's Landing, wherever Dany happens to be) and a few satellite ones, the lowest concentration than at any point since early Season 1.

I think Dany is most likely to disembark at Dorne. Its the closest point to Essos from where she's coming and getting the Dothraki onto dry land ASAP is going to be a priority for her (it doesn't hurt that the climate is pretty similar to Dothraki lands either). That probably means Dany, Tyrion, Varys, Missandre, Greyworm, Ellaria and Lady Olenna in Dorne early on, but rapidly merging with the King's Landing plot (Cersei, Jaime, Qybern and the Mountain) with Arya and the Hound (who I think will end up going south) as wild cards.

Sam's story will be pretty self-contained with his primary purpose being to provide some key piece of intel about the nature of the conflict that pulls the rug out from under us in the final act; most likely that something we thought a good thing is actually a bad thing like Dany bringing dragons to the Wall is the one thing that can actually undo the ancient magics (because the dragons/fire cancel the magic of the Wall/ice) or something. I don't expect him in more than a handful of episodes next year.

Everything else will converge North to Winterfell where Jon, Sansa, Davos, Tormund, Brienne, Pod and eventually Bran and Meera are prepping for the Army of the Dead even as Littlefinger is trying to play politics.

14 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Also, since we're in the speculation racket: Season 7 is Cersei's last season, Y/N?

I think it'll be the final season for Cersei, Lady Olenna and Littlefinger and I'm 50/50 on Jaime. They're the last gasps of the "Game" before the Army of the Dead makes it all meaningless.

[Constantinople]

20 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Also, since we're in the speculation racket: Season 7 is Cersei's last season, Y/N?

Since they're setting next season up as the War of the Two Queens, I would think it would have to be, unless Cersei flees King's Landing for Casterly Rock.  But if they're are only 7 episodes in Season 7 and 6 episodes in Season 8, that would leave less time for the war against the White Walkers.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Constantinople

[Eyes High]

I know many have said that Cersei has virtually no resources with which to fight so she won't last long, but I'm guessing Cersei will not go quietly or easily in Season 7. Cersei's great advantage has not been being smarter but being far more vicious than her opponents. Now that viciousness has been cranked to 11. The warmer, more sympathetic TV Cersei, as stated by Benioff in the Inside the Episode, has officially left the building.

[SeanC]

13 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

I think it'll be the final season for Cersei, Lady Olenna and Littlefinger and I'm 50/50 on Jaime.

Other than natural causes, how would Olenna die?