Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[SeanC]

8 minutes ago, anamika said:

So characters like Jon, Arya and Bran get the short shrift. Their stories got changed so that Sansa could get North and have something interesting to do other than hang around in the Vale with some Harry the Heir.

How exactly were Arya and Bran's stories changed as a result of Sansa's being changed?

[anamika]

12 minutes ago, SeanC said:

How exactly were Arya and Bran's stories changed as a result of Sansa's being changed?

Arya's most certainly. ADwD was about the North rallying for Arya and Jon breaking his vows and dying for Arya. Two important relationships down the drain for giving Sansa an interesting story in the North. Unless you think that those are not important in the books? I agree that they would have given Bran short shrift anyway, since they only like to use him as exposition man. What I meant was that the writers don't seem to care about Jon, Arya and Bran's 'character development' as much as they do Sansa's. So, Lyanna Mormont becomes more interested in Sansa's marriages than in Jon bring a possible deserter from the NW.

I would point out Theon's haunting ADwD story as the other casualty in changing Sansa's story.

Isaac had some interesting comments where he speculates on how Jon would react to news about his parentage from Bran. Maybe it is indeed Bran who spills the beans to Jon and Howland Reed is only needed for confirmation.

Edited July 23, 2016 by anamika

[Bean421]

22 minutes ago, bunnyblue said:

Yeah, this is becoming an annoying pattern with Sophie. I get that she is biased towards her own character, but I don't see the need to call Jon 'naive' (hello, pot meet kettle) and now this comment about Jon being unqualified to rule  Winterfell. Does she watch the show or pay attention to any character but her own?? Jon Snow is by no means Tywin or Olenna or Tyrion but he is not the dumbass she makes him out to be. 

 

1 hour ago, amandawoods said:

Sophie Turner knows nothing.  I love her acting, but I think she's just a gigantic troll to fans and wants to rile them up.  

Iwan Rheon always had very interesting insights into his characters. I Ramsey was despicable, but I found the actor thoughtful and "enjoyed" his performance. I want to like Sansa and try to understand her thoughts but Sophie's insights (Littlefinger as a great ally) are making the TV character harder to swallow. Since it looks like she'll be more the focus in the coming season with this sibling rivalry, I hope the writers can take some of the internal parts of Jon's character and have him actually stand up for himself. 

[Alayne Stone]

Let's be honest with ourselves here, guys. The Jon Snow of the show was very naïve this season. His actions in episode 9 were not that of a meticulous and thoughtful leader. They were one of a brash, emotional and reckless leader. Ramsey played him like a fiddle during the Battle of the Bastards. Sophie Turner is not wrong in doubting his ability to rule.

Of course the Jon Snow of the show is very different than the Jon Snow of the books who is thoughtful (almost to a damn fault at times) and is constantly shown weighing all his options before making a decision. Hell, even the Jon Snow of the show pre season 6 showed more of an aptitude for listening to other people and meticulously forming a plan and actually sticking to it without letting his emotions get the better of him.

That being said ... Sophie Turner is still a troll.

I would take anything she says with a grain of salt as she spent seasons 3-5 promising that Sansa was going to learn how to manipulate people and play the game of thrones and that amounted to her getting sold off to the Boltons and raped. I'm sure the still will still dredge up unnecessary tension between Jon and Sansa for the sake of more unnecessary drama between any group of siblings who aren't the actual siblings that should have tension between them (hint: their sigil is a lion) rather than, oh, I don't know ... maybe focusing on the actual battle that is going to close this series out.

And guys, let's also not forget whose story forced everyone else's storylines to be sacrificed in season 5. It wasn't Sansa's storyline they were so hell bent on telling. It was Ramsey's. ;)

[SeanC]

33 minutes ago, anamika said:

Arya's most certainly. ADwD was about the North rallying for Arya and Jon breaking his vows and dying for Arya. Two important relationships down the drain for giving Sansa an interesting story in the North. Unless you think that those are not important in the books?

I don't see that as "Arya's story", anymore than Brienne wandering around the Riverlands in AFFC trying to find Sansa is Sansa's story.  Arya isn't there for it, and in respect of the North, it had nothing to do with Arya's own characteristics beyond her being Ned's daughter, which Sansa also is (though the North didn't give a crap about that anyway, as it turned out).

No question that Arya and Jon's relationship has been seriously underserved by the show, but that's been the case since the characters parted.  It's not something related to Sansa.  And indeed, as far as Jon breaking his vows and dying for Arya, the writers didn't give that to Sansa; they omitted that whole angle, seemingly out of a desire to make Jon as unblemished as possible in his conduct.  Again, not related to Sansa.

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So, Lyanna Mormont becomes more interested in Sansa's marriages than in Jon bring a possible deserter from the NW.

Jon being a deserter wasn't brought up because the writers don't seem to have any interesting in explaining why the Northern lords aren't insisting on executing him.  I don't see how that scene is an example of Jon being de-emphasized in favour of Sansa, seeing as he actually does have some ultimate success at interacting with Lyanna in that scene, though the bulk of it is obviously Davos (not Sansa).

Unrelatedly, the writers said at SDCC that filming of the next season will extend into February 2017.  It seems like July would be the earliest the show could premiere, with that sort of schedule.

Edited July 23, 2016 by SeanC

[loki567]

*Sighs* The show has always, always, always undercut the Northern side of the story. I won't be surprised if they do it one more time before the series end. I don't think it's  about Sansa so much as hammering home one more time than the Northerners are a bunch of gullible fools and Southern politics of treachery, sneering, and quips is where it's at. 

[anamika]

33 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I don't see that as "Arya's story", anymore than Brienne wandering around the Riverlands in AFFC trying to find Sansa is Sansa's story.  Arya isn't there for it, and in respect of the North, it had nothing to do with Arya's own characteristics beyond her being Ned's daughter, which Sansa also is (though the North didn't give a crap about that anyway, as it turned out).

You don't think there is a difference between the North rallying behind Ned's daughter, ready to attack the Boltons and allying with Stannis  and Brienne wandering around the Riverlands for some 10 chapters looking for young, fair, maiden with red hair aged13? So what if Arya's own characteristics had nothing to do with it? In the books, they did it for ARYA. Not for Sansa, Bran or Rickon. The North currently does not give two figs about Sansa. Seeing as how Arya is often ignored by show readers and fans when it comes to narratives about the North or Winterfell,  GRRM explicitly has the mountain clans rally around Arya. As such, Ramsey's marriage to Arya to hold the North and the clans marching through harsh winter conditions for her highlights Arya's importance to the North.

44 minutes ago, SeanC said:

No question that Arya and Jon's relationship has been seriously underserved by the show, but that's been the case since the characters parted.  It's not something related to Sansa.  And indeed, as far as Jon breaking his vows and dying for Arya, the writers didn't give that to Sansa; they omitted that whole angle, seemingly out of a desire to make Jon as unblemished as possible in his conduct.  Again, not related to Sansa.

No they did not give that Sansa, but that was the whole point of Jeyne in the North - Theon's redemption, the North rallying around Arya and Jon breaking his vows. By replacing Jeyne with Sansa, they made that story be about Sansa, instead of Theon, Jon and Arya.  Here's a question: Why was Sansa allowed to ask about Arya and not Jon? Why is Sansa arguing that they need to fight for Arya,Bran and Winterfell and not Jon? These are things that JON thinks of and is conflicted about in the books. They could have still followed through on all this for him in season 6.

56 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Jon being a deserter wasn't brought up because the writers don't seem to have any interesting in explaining why the Northern lords aren't insisting on executing him.  I don't see how that scene is an example of Jon being de-emphasized in favour of Sansa, seeing as he actually does have some ultimate success at interacting with Lyanna in that scene, though the bulk of it is obviously Davos (not Sansa).

 And that's the problem. They don't seem to be putting too much thought into writing this character other than him being a last action hero. I mean why don't we see Jon, Davos and Mel try to explain that he died and was brought back, explain the WW and the situation up North. That is all Jon's story. But we don't seem them discussing any of this. Instead we get Lyanna asking Sansa about her marriages, just so Sansa can proclaim that she is a Stark for some reason. I think we can say that the North storyline in season 6 was more about Sansa than Jon. We see her grow and learn from her experiences. She now understands Ramsey and LF. What has Jon learned about betrayal after Olly stabs him? Nothing. Where is his character development?

The show was able to juggle Stannis, Mel, Selyse, Shireen, Jon, Davos, Gilly and Sam at the wall last season perfectly. Each character did their part. I cannot say the same this season, after they dump Sansa at the Wall. I definitely see Jon as being sidelined in his own story to give Sansa her story. I am not sure how anyone can deny that Jon has been dumbed down on the show and devoid of any development so that Sansa can be this LF like player. 

[SeanC]

16 minutes ago, anamika said:

You don't think there is a difference between the North rallying behind Ned's daughter, ready to attack the Boltons and allying with Stannis  and Brienne wandering around the Riverlands for some 10 chapters looking for young, fair, maiden with red hair aged13? So what if Arya's own characteristics had nothing to do with it? In the books, they did it for ARYA. Not for Sansa, Bran or Rickon. The North currently does not give two figs about Sansa. Seeing as how Arya is often ignored by show readers and fans when it comes to narratives about the North or Winterfell,  GRRM explicitly has the mountain clans rally around Arya. As such, Ramsey's marriage to Arya to hold the North and the clans marching through harsh winter conditions for her highlights Arya's importance to the North.

No, I don't see a difference.  They did it for Arya because Arya was the one there; the North has no idea where Sansa is.  I expect that, if she ended up in Winterfell, they'd have done the same; just like Brienne, on getting indications that Arya was alive, began to look for her too.  The important part in both scenarios is that they're a Stark daughter, not anything about them individually.  I don't regard any of that as terribly significant for Arya's character, seeing as it doesn't involve her at all.

The part that is about Arya is the Jon/Arya relationship, but that was changed for a completely different reason, not because of Sansa.  Even if they'd done fArya, I don't think they'd have involved Jon in it, because their version of Jon was a complete straight-arrow as Lord Commander.

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Here's a question: Why was Sansa allowed to ask about Arya and not Jon? Why is Sansa arguing that they need to fight for Arya,Bran and Winterfell and not Jon? These are things that JON thinks of and is conflicted about in the books. They could have still followed through on all this for him in season 6.

You'd have to ask the writers as to the first; they don't seem to have much interest in Jon/Arya callbacks, and never have, whereas Arya and Sansa's past relationship has gotten brought up more (by the standards of the Stark siblings talking about each other on the show, which doesn't happen often, they do so frequently).  As to the second, because the writers' view of Jon's arc this season is rediscovering giving a damn, from the narrative structure.  They view him as having come back from the dead utterly demoralized.

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 And that's the problem. They don't seem to be putting too much thought into writing this character other than him being a last action hero. I mean why don't we see Jon, Davos and Mel try to explain that he died and was brought back, explain the WW and the situation up North. That is all Jon's story. But we don't seem them discussing any of this. Instead we get Lyanna asking Sansa about her marriages, just so Sansa can proclaim that she is a Stark for some reason.

The writers didn't want to have the characters have that protracted discussion about resurrection because it's a gigantic can of worms and there's no reason any of the Northern lords should believe it.  I agree that it's an irritating plot hole, but that's not evidence of Sansa favouritism.  The marriage exchange lasted for about ten seconds and was done.  And they did have Davos explain the White Walkers, which was the bulk of the scene, capped by Jon finally reaching accord with Lyanna.  Likewise, the whole scene of recruiting the Wildlings that same episode was centered on Jon.  He did just fine that episode, in terms of focus.

Edited July 23, 2016 by SeanC

[Colorful Mess]

The fact that Kit got an supporting actor nom means that other people thought he had a pretty meaty storyline this year. However, I do think they shortchanged Jon's intelligence in translation. He's actually quite sassy in the books and seems to want to show off how smart he is. He thinks people who resist his way of thinking are idiots. He does wrestle internally with stuff, but BookJon is less silent and reserved than played on the show. D&D seem to think of Jon as just good with a sword. We saw almost none of his administrative abilities and player moves at the Wall. I really wanted him to convince the Northern Lords about the White Walkers in episode 10. Instead he just says one cryptic line and then sits silently while they discuss amongst each other until Lyanna Mormont has to jump in to save him. Ugh.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Colorful Mess

[anamika]

13 minutes ago, SeanC said:

No, I don't see a difference.  They did it for Arya because Arya was the one there; the North has no idea where Sansa is.  I expect that, if she ended up in Winterfell, they'd have done the same; just like Brienne, on getting indications that Arya was alive, began to look for her too.  The important part in both scenarios is that they're a Stark daughter, not anything about them individually.  I don't regard any of that as terribly significant for Arya's character, seeing as it doesn't involve her at all

 

But Sansa did not end up in Winterfell, fake Arya did in the books. The North is rallying for Arya in the books, not Sansa. Sansa is not at all in the Northern plot. We have Manderly for Rickon and the mountain clans marching for Arya. Sorry, but the Stark sisters are not interchangeable in the books.  And since you bring up the North rallying behind Arya being no different than Brienne looking for Sansa, recall that the show not only wrote Brienne looking for Sansa, but also Brienne finding Sansa twice, waiting in a tower for a whole season for Sansa, swearing oaths to Sansa and becoming Sansa's right hand woman. So if the sisters are interchangeable why not send Brienne off to Bravos looking for Arya after she leaves the hound and both Arya and Brienne can be buddies?

26 minutes ago, SeanC said:

The part that is about Arya is the Jon/Arya relationship, but that was changed for a completely different reason, not because of Sansa.  Even if they'd done fArya, I don't think they'd have involved Jon in it, because their version of Jon was a complete straight-arrow as Lord Commander.

     I think if they had done fake Arya, Jon's season 6 story could have involved his conflicts over his vows. I agree they have seemingly stripped Jon of all his flaws and complexities and it's not all because of Sansa. But I do think Sansa in Jon's story has only made it worse.

29 minutes ago, SeanC said:

You'd have to ask the writers as to the first; they don't seem to have much interest in Jon/Arya callbacks, and never have, whereas Arya and Sansa's past relationship has gotten brought up more (by the standards of the Stark siblings talking about each other on the show, which doesn't happen often, they do so frequently).  As to the second, because the writers' view of Jon's arc this season is rediscovering giving a damn, from the narrative structure.  They view him as having come back from the dead utterly demoralized.
 

 I don't have to ask the writers why they have given more focus to Sansa's relationships with different people as opposed to Jon and Arya's. I have expressed my opinions pretty clearly on those. The writers have admitted to Sansa being their favorite character and it's clear they like writing for her. We can see that they play favorites with the characters, hence why Cersei is a better character on the show. Which unfortunately comes at the expense of Jaime's characterization.

Sure Jon can come back demoralized, but should that affect his love for his closest siblings? Should that affect his ability to think? Should he not be more wary after being stabbed to death by someone who was very close to him? What has he learned from his experiences? If they can show that Sansa has learned something, can't they do the same for Jon other than to show him being mopey?

34 minutes ago, SeanC said:

The writers didn't want to have the characters have that protracted discussion about resurrection because it's a gigantic can of worms and there's no reason any of the Northern lords should believe it.  I agree that it's an irritating plot hole, but that's not evidence of Sansa favouritism.  The marriage exchange lasted for about ten seconds and was done.  And they did have Davos explain the White Walkers, which was the bulk of the scene, capped by Jon finally reaching accord with Lyanna.  Likewise, the whole scene of recruiting the Wildlings that same episode was centered on Jon.  He did just fine that episode, in terms of focus.

 Sorry, but I do see it as part of the problem in taking Sansa North. It's clear that after the backlash they got last season and in their fervor to portray Sansa as being a 'boss-ass bitch' they pretty much sidelined Jon's story. The North story had to be now split between Sansa and Jon instead of just Jon. Sansa had more scenes at the wall than Jon after his resurrection. I am using Lyanna questioning Sansa about her marriage instead of Jon about his desertion as an example of how much Jon's development and plot was sidelined because of Sansa getting to the Wall. Jon did not even get to earn a victory at Winterfell. That belongs to Sansa. Jon has a rivalry with Ramsey over Arya in ADwD, but in the show that belongs to Sansa. What did Jon actually do this season other than kill a bunch of Bolton soldiers? Sansa was pretty much in every Jon scene, even when Tormund was recruiting wildlings for Jon, but Jon was missing in several Sansa scenes. That should tell us who the more important character is.

And I do think the promotion also shows that. The North plot is Sansa's this season. She was in the episode promos more than Jon. She is on the DVD covers, not Jon. This was Sansa's season, not Jon's despite it being pretty important for Jon's growth and development as a character after getting assassinated. I doubt this is Jon's story in the books.

[SeanC]

10 minutes ago, anamika said:

But Sansa did not end up in Winterfell, fake Arya did in the books. The North is rallying for Arya in the books, not Sansa. Sansa is not at all in the Northern plot. We have Manderly for Rickon and the mountain clans marching for Arya. Sorry, but the Stark sisters are not interchangeable in the books.  And since you bring up the North rallying behind Arya being no different than Brienne looking for Sansa, recall that the show not only wrote Brienne looking for Sansa, but also Brienne finding Sansa twice, waiting in a tower for a whole season for Sansa, swearing oaths to Sansa and becoming Sansa's right hand woman. So if the sisters are interchangeable why not send Brienne off to Bravos looking for Arya after she leaves the hound and both Arya and Brienne can be buddies?

Of course the Stark sisters are not literally interchangeable.  But in that particular context, there is no difference; the North is rallying for a girl they think is a Stark.  Whether her name is Arya or Sansa is irrelevant, and I fail to see how it could be considered Arya's story, since Arya isn't involved in the slightest.  Though as I said, the North didn't actually rally in the show, anyway.

The show also had Brienne find Arya.  As to why they didn't send Brienne to Braavos, one imagines because it couldn't be made to fit into Arya's story or the assorted story points they needed Brienne to hit, whereas sending her North after Sansa killed time, allowed them to solve some other plot issues, and got her back down to meet Jaime (and possibly the Hound and/or Arya again).  

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I think if they had done fake Arya, Jon's season 6 story could have involved his conflicts over his vows.

How would that work?  fArya has already escaped by that point, and in any event, is not actually Arya.  The result would just be Jeyne Poole tagging along on Jon's adventures.  The writers weren't interested in Jon being conflicted over his vows (indeed, due to the way they restructured the overall story, Jon was released from his vows before he heard anything about Winterfell), and I don't see why omitting Sansa would change that.

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The writers have admitted to Sansa being their favorite character and it's clear they like writing for her. 

I don't think the writers have ever called Sansa their favourite character.  They've said she's one of them.

Edited July 23, 2016 by SeanC

[anamika]

3 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Of course the Stark sisters are not literally interchangeable.  But in that particular context, there is no difference; the North is rallying for a girl they think is a Stark.  Whether her name is Arya or Sansa is irrelevant, and I fail to see how it could be considered Arya's story, since Arya isn't involved in the slightest.  Though as I said, the North didn't actually rally in the show, anyway.

The show also had Brienne find Arya.  As to why they didn't send Brienne to Braavos, one imagines because it couldn't be made to fit into Arya's story or the assorted story points they needed Brienne to hit, whereas sending her North after Sansa killed time, allowed them to solve some other plot issues, and got her back down to meet Jaime (and possibly the Hound and/or Arya again). 

You chose not to see a difference. But I do think there is a difference in that it highlights Arya's importance to the North. Ramsey marrying Arya was important to hold the North. The clans were marching for Arya. By removing that on the show, they have removed Arya's importance and connection to both the North and Jon.

Brienne finding Arya did nothing other than to give Brienne a fight with the hound and her telling Sansa (Not Jon!) about meeting Arya. How did it in any way help further Arya's story, narrative, relationships or character? And as you said, if Brienne finding Sansa is as unimportant as the North rallying behind Arya, why does the show not ignore that and do something else with Brienne? She can meet up with Arya again on the way back to Bravos, they head to the Riverlands and the Freys where Brienne can confront Jaime while Arya plots against the Freys.

13 minutes ago, SeanC said:

How would that work?  fArya has already escaped by that point, and in any event, is not actually Arya.  The result would just be Jeyne Poole tagging along on Jon's adventures.  The writers weren't interested in Jon being conflicted over his vows (indeed, due to the way they restructured the overall story, Jon was released from his vows before he heard anything about Winterfell), and I don't see why omitting Sansa would change that.
 

Fake Arya has also escaped in the books when Jon receives the Pink Letter. Why would Jeyne Poole need to tag along for anything? This is Jon's story. They would have focused on Jon instead of writing Jeyne an 'empowered, player of the game, need to take revenge on Ramsey' arc. Sure, the writers were not interested in Jon's conflict over his vows. They were more interested in Sansa's conflicts over LF and Jon.

17 minutes ago, SeanC said:

I don't think the writers have ever called Sansa their favourite character.  They've said she's one of them.

 Benioff has called Sansa his favorite character in a Vanity Fair interview. I think it was Vanity Fair.

[SeanC]

18 minutes ago, anamika said:

Brienne finding Arya did nothing other than to give Brienne a fight with the hound and her telling Sansa (Not Jon!) about meeting Arya. How did it in any way help further Arya's story, narrative, relationships or character? And as you said, if Brienne finding Sansa is as unimportant as the North rallying behind Arya, why does the show not ignore that and do something else with Brienne? She can meet up with Arya again on the way back to Bravos, they head to the Riverlands and the Freys where Brienne can confront Jaime while Arya plots against the Freys.

Brienne fighting the Hound was in and of itself important to Arya's story because it took out the Hound, but that wasn't primarily about Arya.  That was a way to combine plots and, in the writers' eyes, spice things up.

As to why they didn't have Brienne "do something else", I should think that would be obvious: because that means they have to create another storyline.  Heck, what would Brienne have done for the entirety of Season 5?  Or Season 6 until the very end?  And, as I said, it allowed them to cover other points they evidently considered important -- most significantly, they wanted Brienne to kill Stannis, which required her to be North (indeed, her whole arc is Season 5 is ultimately leading up to killing Stannis; Sansa is pretty much a MacGuffin in that context, like she is in the books, and the seemingly meaningful choice Brienne makes to abandon her post is, in fact, not meaningful at all as of the following season).

All of the characters have certain key story points attached to them that the writers want to hit, and they juggle all them to try to hit those points in as few overall storylines as possible.

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Sure, the writers were not interested in Jon's conflict over his vows. They were more interested in Sansa's conflicts over LF and Jon.

They could have written Jon being conflicted over his vows in Season 5.  They didn't.  That would indicate it's not something the writers were interested in, and it had nothing to do with Sansa's presence.

If you're arguing that removing Jon's internal conflict detracted from his character, I agree with you 100%.  But the leap from that to the idea that it's a result of authorial favouritism for Sansa doesn't follow, for me.  I also think that effectively removing Dontos from Sansa's storyline did it a major disservice, for instance, but I would never argue that getting rid of brothel scenes or whatever would have made the writers include Dontos instead; they didn't have any interest in Dontos to begin with, as they themselves made pretty evident.

And as far as removing Sansa from the story meaning Jon's would be written different, that's absolutely true, but it's equally true that there'd be less time for Jon's story (and all the others), because they'd have to create a whole separate plot for Sansa in seasons 5 and 6 that would require at least 20-30 minutes of screentime per season -- and that would have to come from somewhere.  That's why the writers are always trying to combine storylines.

Edited July 23, 2016 by SeanC

[anamika]

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

Brienne fighting the Hound was in and of itself important to Arya's story because it took out the Hound, but that wasn't primarily about Arya.  That was a way to combine plots and, in the writers' eyes, spice things up.

Yes, it was not about Arya – which is my point. Brienne being there added nothing to Arya as a character unlike the North rallying behind Arya. The Hound was already sick from his wounds – he did not need to be taken out by Brienne. Unlike Brienne being there for Sansa - which gained Sansa a loyal ally.

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

As to why they didn't have Brienne "do something else", I should think that would be obvious: because that means they have to create another storyline.  Heck, what would Brienne have done for the entirety of Season 5?  Or Season 6 until the very end?  And, as I said, it allowed them to cover other points they evidently considered important -- most significantly, they wanted Brienne to kill Stannis, which required her to be North (indeed, her whole arc is Season 5 is ultimately leading up to killing Stannis; Sansa is pretty much a MacGuffin in that context, like she is in the books, and the seemingly meaningful choice Brienne makes to abandon her post is, in fact, not meaningful at all as of the following season).

No, it’s not obvious.  According to you, it should not make a difference if Brienne swears her fealty to Sansa or Arya right? What did Brienne do for the entirety of season 5 anyway? Fight some soldiers, reminisce with Pod and sit in a motel room. She could have done the same on her way to Bravos and in Bravos while Arya did her FM training. They could have met up in episode 4 in season 6 and traveled to the River lands together, since that’s where both of them end up anyways. It's possible, if they wanted Brienne to be with Arya.

They had Brienne in the North  because she followed Sansa and they wanted to end Stannis' arc and so used Brienne to give Stannis a send off. Stannis could have as well died at the end of Ramsay’s hand. Do you think Brienne kills Stannis in the books?

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

They could have written Jon being conflicted over his vows in Season 5.  They didn't.  That would indicate it's not something the writers were interested in, and it had nothing to do with Sansa's presence.

If you're arguing that removing Jon's internal conflict detracted from his character, I agree with you 100%.  But the leap from that to the idea that it's a result of authorial favouritism for Sansa doesn't follow, for me.  I also think that effectively removing Dontos from Sansa's storyline did it a major disservice, for instance, but I would never argue that getting rid of brothel scenes or whatever would have made the writers include Dontos instead; they didn't have any interest in Dontos to begin with, as they themselves made pretty evident.

They split Jon’s arc into two. His season 5 arc was about the Wildlings. His season 6 arc was about Winterfell and Ramsay. The whole conflict with the vows comes into question with the decision that Jon takes to go attack Ramsay for his sister. That was still doable in season 6 because he apparently only hears about Winterfell and Ramsay in season 6. Ramsay was Theon and Jon’s nemesis in the books, not Sansa’s.  Jon does not require Sansa goading him to go attack Winterfell, he does it himself in the books. That’s where his breaking the vows come in. So yes, I would argue that Sansa’s presence at the wall was detrimental to any sort of character development for Jon himself this season. What I am saying is that they could have done more with Jon than him just moping around for 6 episodes.

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

And as far as removing Sansa from the story meaning Jon's would be written different, that's absolutely true, but it's equally true that there'd be less time for Jon's story (and all the others), because they'd have to create a whole separate plot for Sansa in seasons 5 and 6 that would require at least 20-30 minutes of screentime per season -- and that would have to come from somewhere.  That's why the writers are always trying to combine storylines.

 

I would not mind if they gave Sansa her book story in the Vale, even if that means reduced screen time for the North plot. We would still get Jon’s ADwD and TWoW plot in the North, not Sansa’s made up story with Jon as a secondary character. I am indifferent to Sansa’s character so it’s particularly annoying for me that they put her into the plot of a character I do like, Jon, and then ended up making it more about her than him, along with dumbing him down to portray her as being a game player. Hence my ranting. I do understand why they did it though - The Vale plot would require a bunch of new extra characters and her story would probably be as boring as Arya's FM story in Bravos. I just wish that they did not use Jon as a plot device to further Sansa's character. If the reverse had happened there would be this huge outcry of misogyny and sexism, but since it's Sansa (Who the GOT SJW fandom loves) it's totally a-ok.

And again, they were able to successfully juggle main characters like Stannis, Davos, Shireen, Sam and Mel at the wall in season 5 and every character was written decently. The Stannis-Jon-Davos interactions were the highpoint of season 5 for me because Stannis, Davos, Jon and Sam all talked to each other like intelligent folks. The writing for Stannis does not take away from Jon’s character development and vice versa. Sure it all went downhill after Stannis leaves the Wall and again I blame that on the writers wanting LF/Sansa North with their Vale army being responsible for defeating Ramsay and getting the victory instead of Stannis or Jon.

GRRM used an entire book to groom characters like Jon and Dany in ruling and the show has instead turned that into a 'learning to play the game' arc for Sansa.

Edited July 23, 2016 by anamika

[OhOkayWhat]

Reading some interesting comments here. I will add some of my own:

-Interviews are not canon by themselves, except in a very few cases.

-They did not take anything from Arya plot to give it to Sansa or anyone else. It never belonged to her. All the things people read from the books belong to the books. Show-Arya is not Book-Arya, she never was. And it is the same with all the characters.

-Jon plot in the show (season 6) is about him choosing to reborn, to live. His mind was still in his grave for most of the season.

Edited July 23, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[anamika]

20 hours ago, sunflower said:

I wish every audience member would ask, "why didn't Sansa tell Jon about LF and the Knights of the Vale?"  D&D will be on the panel right, explain the bad writing, please!  

“Sansa didn’t tell Jon (about the Vale knights) because she wanted all the credit and it was a more dramatic moment when they all showed up. And it made for better television” “ -Sophie Turner #SDCC

[Happy Harpy]

8 hours ago, Alayne Stone said:

And guys, let's also not forget whose story forced everyone else's storylines to be sacrificed in season 5. It wasn't Sansa's storyline they were so hell bent on telling. It was Ramsey's. ;)

I disagree. Imo, S6 showed that Sansa's S5 storyline was very much Sansa's: For better or for worse, or maybe both, it participated in the evolution of her character. Until her marriage she was a frightened girl running away from the Lannisters, who just wanted to be safe and expected others to protect her, now she doesn't have anything to lose, she isn't afraid to fight for what she wants and she will dirty her hands if necessary. Whereas in the general scheme of things, Ramsay was never more than an antagonist/villain/obstacle, albeit a particularly heinous one.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Happy Harpy

[OhOkayWhat]

Just now, anamika said:

“Sansa didn’t tell Jon (about the Vale knights) because she wanted all the credit and it was a more dramatic moment when they all showed up. And it made for better television” “ -Sophie Turner #SDCC

 

Interestingly, it proves my first point.

 

 

Just now, Happy Harpy said:

I disagree. Imo, S6 showed that Sansa's S5 storyline was very much Sansa's: For better or for worse, or maybe both, it participated in the evolution of her character. Until her marriage she was a frightened girl running away from the Lannisters, who just wanted to be safe and expected others to protect her, now she doesn't have anything to lose, she isn't afraid to fight for what she wants and she will dirty her hands if necessary. Whereas in the general scheme of things, Ramsay was never more than an antagonist/villain/obstacle, albeit a particularly heinous one.

 

 

Agree, specially with "S6 showed that Sansa's S5 storyline was very much Sansa's" (I could add it was also Theon's). The link between Season 5 and Season 6 and the previous and future seasons is the reason I always say that it is an single ongoing story, it is like a 73 hours long movie, and sometimes we need to wait to see the future seasons to have a better perspective of the show.

Ramsay is a character at the core of the Bolton storyline, and the whole Bolton storyline is just a way to have an anti-Stark family, the other side of the North coin. If we see it from this perspective, Ramsay and his family are just devices for the Stark plot, the one that still continues in the show.

Also, from a wider perspective any character is a plot device of other character, and that is the way the narrative works.

[cambridgeguy]

Quote

Let's be honest with ourselves here, guys. The Jon Snow of the show was very naïve this season. His actions in episode 9 were not that of a meticulous and thoughtful leader. They were one of a brash, emotional and reckless leader. Ramsey played him like a fiddle during the Battle of the Bastards. Sophie Turner is not wrong in doubting his ability to rule.

Jon is supposed to be the next Ned Stark - keep in mind that Ned Stark was an honorable man who was completely capable of ruling justly over loyal subjects and completely incapable of dealing with treachery.  Lord Commander Jon would have been a great leader for the Night's Watch as it was originally constructed but ended up getting murdered by his own men when faced with the reality of leading an organization filled with criminals.  KITN Jon is fine if the lords are loyal (good thing the treacherous northern ones are dead) but he won't be able to handle Littlefinger.  That being said, Varys, Oleanna, and perhaps Tyrion are the only ones clever enough to deal with him so Sansa's a fool if she puts herself in that group.

[TxanGoddess]

Can I just challenge this idea that Jon "looked like an idiot" in S6?  I didn't get far enough into the books to have read about him as Lord Commander, so I realize from what y'all post that he showed a lot of savvy there.  But I've done an informal poll of my work (17 people, 13 watch GOT, only 1 has read all the books) and not one of them thought Jon looked stupid this past season, or even naïve in his overall character.

Now all of us cringed when he fell right into Ramsay's plan in S9.  But that was one episode.  One episode where his little brother's life was on the line.  Was it a great move for a smart general?  No.  Was it the wisest move for a King?  Well, no.  Was it even pretty damned naïve at that point?  Yeah.  But I think there are probably even MENSA members who could be distracted and make a bad emotional choice over less than their youngest brother's life on the line (or vengeance for his loss). 

Jon had some good moments this season that showed complex thinking too, intuition, planning.  His glare at Sansa in the Castle Black scene where she says something to the effect of "He's Ned's son as good as Ramsay is Roose's" proved he was paying attention to her in case the other shoe dropped.  In fact, later when she gives him the cloak, my cue from Kit's acting was that even his thank you was ... hesitant ... like he was weighing her motives.  He did well with the wildlings, as others have mentioned above.  Though Ser Davos was clearly the scene stealer at Bear Island, Jon was the first one to realize that Sansa's "ringing declaration of Starkness" (tm some other poster here) was not cutting mustard anymore, and he tried to changed tacts; he also tried to use a different approach with the next lord (Glover or Manderly, I forgot) which is when Sansa foolishly pulls out the whole, "I'm a Stark, bitch," play again, and basically gets served back.  The "We need to trust each other" scene on the castle wall, as others have noted, was basically him reminding himself to be wary of her as much as trying to advise Sansa that she could trust him.  His discussion with the Red Woman prior to the battle, askng her not to bring him back from the dead is quite thoughtful. 

I just think that many of you are allowing your high expectations from the books to maybe distort what made it up onto screen.  Now he did seem like a more minor character than Sansa this season, that I will totally agree with.  But I don't think overall that he looked stupid for the whole season, or less smart than her either. 

One more small point that honestly just occurred to me while I was writing this.  A lot has been made out of Sansa's withholding the Vale army information from Jon, rightfully so.  But you know what else she waited to say until the last minute?  Flat out telling him that Ramsay was not going to let Rickon live no matter what they did.  Now I'm not sure why she didn't ... Sansa's motives are opaque throughout this season, but let's assume they are somewhere between the wide points of flat out using Jon and actually caring about him too, just caring about herself more lol.  So if you're her and you never have a serious talk with Jon telling him that, I guess its because you want him to stay highly motivated to fight since he was shaky at the outset?  I don't know.  But having her say it when she did, in the middle of a pretty emotional confrontation the very night before the fight ... I don't think that did any favors to Jon's mindset.  The minute he saw Rickon, that had to be the only thing in his head.  No wonder he fucked things up trying to save him.

It's very possible that if she had told him under calmer circumstances, he might have been able to make a wiser decision at the battle.  Well, I'm starting to ramble.  Just thought this was all worth throwing out there.  I do love to see this sort of vigorous disagreement all stated so passionately!   

ETA:  In fairness to Sansa, maybe she just also didn't want to admit to herself that Rickon was lost either way, but it still would have been good if she had been able to prepare Jon somehow imo.  Generally, I still don't see any of this as Jon v Sansa, and I don't think either of them is anywhere near the league of LF, Tyrion, Olenna etc as players.  I don't dislike either one, and still see a high potential for them to work together, but just with some wonderful drama and tension.    

Edited again lol to add this.  I don't see it as a competition, but since the discussion generally seems to be whether they made Sansa look smart vs Jon look dumb, I think Sansa's overall attitude to Ser Davos was utterly stupid.  Sophie Turner has said that Sansa doesn't think much of him, whch I think is born out by Sansa's derisive attitude about him when she speaks to Jon later, but just let's explore why she doesn't think highly of him.  Because he told her something she didn't want to hear about the Northern lords, she argued with him, and he ended up being completely in the right.  She basically doesn't like him because he bruised her ego.  

Edited July 23, 2016 by TxanGoddess

[sunflower]

Quote

I don't dislike either one, and still see a high potential for them to work together, but just with some wonderful drama and tension. 

I hope so too, since Jon and Sansa are my favorite characters outside of my undying love for Jaime Lannister.  Weirdly, I also love Bran.     I would love if Jon and Sansa ended up killing LF and sending his head to Cersei.  A strange sort of payback, and also they could send a message, "here's the head of the man who killed your precious Joffrey, toots!" 

Quote

I think Sansa's overall attitude to Ser Davos was utterly stupid

See, maybe the point is Sansa is in the wrong, but the showrunner interviews make that difficult.  We all know that Davos, while not perfect, same with Jon, is a good man.  He seems like a father figure character to Shireen, of course, and to Jon.  I loved the way he spoke to him after Jon came back to life.  Sansa just sounds so like an entitled highborn even after all she's been through.  Maybe that will be her story arc through GRRM And the show.  A leopard doesn't change her spots and will end up dying some needless death for betraying Jon and the North by the end of the story, book and show.  I hope not, but maybe.  

eta: scary thought, what if someone like Davos ends up dying due to LF/Sansa machinations and Jon loses his shit on her?  

Edited July 23, 2016 by sunflower

[Advance35]

Quote

KITN Jon is fine if the lords are loyal (good thing the treacherous northern ones are dead) but he won't be able to handle Littlefinger.  That being said, Varys, Oleanna, and perhaps Tyrion are the only ones clever enough to deal with him so Sansa's a fool if she puts herself in that group.

 This is the only reason I think Sansa understandably doesn't want to rely on Jon.  He's good with loyal Lords but Sansa doesn't think anyone is truly loyal.  Jon seems the type to wait for someone to prove themselves untrustworthy, Sansa's the type that won't trust the person to begin with.  Both have their drawbacks, in Sansa's case, distrust of everyone can keep her from seeing trustworthy allies, for Jon, it gives people the chance to stick the dagger in.

Sansa is a LONG way from ever being a match for Littlefinger but I honestly don't think Tyrion or Olenna are a match either.   He seduced House Tyrell into an alliance with House Lannister, He turned Olyvar over to Cersei/High Sparrow, which led to the incarceration of Loras and Margaery.  LF played a notable role in what led to the destruction of House Tyrell.  He knew things would never end well for the Tyrells either by the toxic nature of House Lannister or his own eventual machinations.  He set them on the road to destruction right under Glenna's nose.   He also sowed seeds for Tyrions destruction (though it's more pronounced in the books) there is no way he didn't think spiriting Sansa away after Joffrey's murder wouldn't implicate Tyrion.

I'd say Varys is the only one who's a match for LF which is why I desperately hope we get more scenes of the two.  I only give LF the edge because there are things Varys wants to preserve.  Dany and The Realm.   LF has proven there isn't anything he WOULDN'T destroy.  I think he's like an intelligent Cersei.

[anamika]

More of Sophie on that LF/Sansa look:

Quote

“There’s always a bit of sibling rivalry between Sansa and Jon; there has been since they were very young,” Turner said. “I think that look between Sansa and Littlefinger is her kind of acknowledging that his points are somewhat legitimate, and she’s kind of intrigued as to that pretty little picture that he painted of him on the Iron Throne and her by his side.”

“She’s kind of thinking, ‘Well, he’ll give me the credit that I deserve,’” Turner continued. “But it’s very interesting to see where her loyalties will now lie—whether she’ll go with Jon or Littlefinger.”

I don't think that the show has established any back story for Jon/Sansa have they? And I don't remember there be any sibling rivalry between the two in the books - they were distant or rather indifferent siblings who moved in different circles.

The show has definitely established a sibling rivalry between the two of them this season with Jon and Sansa arguing with each other in most of their scenes. And I think we will see more of that next season.

And I am glad that they totally shut down the Jon/Sansa shipping. Even Benioff seemed surprised by mentions of it and Sophie's expression lol!

Also:

Quote

“Sansa doesn’t think [Jon Snow] has the intellect, knowledge, experience that she has, and I concur.”

Damn Sophie! That's harsh. Sansa has more intellect and experience than Jon? If they write Jon with the IQ of a 3 yr old next season so that Sansa can outsmart him, I will riot.

Did anyone else say anything interesting in comic con?

Edited July 23, 2016 by anamika

[YaddaYadda]

I know that none of this is canon, but I'm so annoyed by some of the things I've been reading out of the panel. 

LF is Sansa's biggest ally...really? This is the man who sold her to the family that participated in murdering her family at the red wedding. This is the family that stole her home. He did that for gain, not for Sansa. 

Sansa knows LF's ambitions for the iron throne and Jon is now standing in his way. If Turner says that LF is Sansa's biggest ally, does that mean Sansa is LF's biggest ally? In which case, Sansa didn't mean what she said when she told Jon that to her he was a Stark since the second LF reminds her that Jon is her half brother, she starts lying to Jon, and the second LF reminds her that Jon is a bastard born in the south, her entire demeanor changes, like her seeking Jon's forgiveness for being an ass to him for years meant nothing in the end. 

For someone who said that only a fool would trust LF, Sansa will be the biggest fool of them all if she trusts him and I really hope she doesn't.

And maybe it's harsh because it's one person's opinion and we have no idea what the writers are telling the actors, or what the scripts they receive look like, but there was a reason they paralleled Jon's moment as KitN with Robb's moment. So there's that, I guess.

As someone who has read the books, it's just really difficult not to go back and compare them with the show. And I agree that Jon in the books was someone who was learning to rule, so I'm really hoping we get some of that next season. 

I'm assuming news of Queen Cersei will be arriving soon enough, Dany will be landing with a massive army, some extremely disciplined fighters and 3 dragons. LF will have his hands full. 

Hope he dies sooner rather than later. 

[Minneapple]

34 minutes ago, anamika said:

Damn Sophie! That's harsh. Sansa has more intellect and experience than Jon? If they write Jon with the IQ of a 3 yr old next season so that Sansa can outsmart him, I will riot.

I think she was trolling. Sophie has been known to do that.

But I also think the conversation did effectively shut down Jon/Sansa. Sophie told D&D that if they did Jonsa she'd kill them and I think Benioff said they hadn't thought about it. If it was endgame then most likely they would have thought about it by now.

[screamin]

7 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

I think she was trolling. Sophie has been known to do that.

ITA. The actors know what is actually going to happen in the show but are under mandate to never say it - and in fact to say the opposite (Jon is DEAD! He's not coming back! Really!) So if Sophie is hinting that Sansa's going to betray Jon through ambition, it's likely that's a possibility that will appear on the show but then turn out to be a red herring.

7 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

But I also think the conversation did effectively shut down Jon/Sansa. Sophie told D&D that if they did Jonsa she'd kill them and I think Benioff said they hadn't thought about it. If it was endgame then most likely they would have thought about it by now.

Ditto my above reasoning for this point. I don't think we can rule out Jonsa for that reason - if they WERE thinking about it, they certainly wouldn't tell us, and would probably lie and say the opposite.

Edited July 23, 2016 by screamin

[Minneapple]

Oh yeah, good point. Sigh.

[Advance35]

Quote

Ditto my above reasoning for this point. I don't think we can rule out Jonsa for that reason - if they WERE thinking about it, they certainly wouldn't tell us, and would probably lie and say the opposite.

I've never been on board the "Jonsa" ship regardless (though I think the actors have a nice though ambiguous onscreen chemistry) but hasn't that been around for some time?  All the fan work/art and everything that goes with it?   And this was before the two characters ever really interacted in cannon.   I think people will still ship them, it's there right to do so.   Not one for fanfic really but holy crap I see why people here say that ship has kind of exploded.  I only know of one place to find that stuff and there are a LOT of them but then again Sansa seems to have the largest body of fan works period of all the characters.  

I see why the show runners have ST as a mainstay at these events.  Though I'll never understand why some people are so bothered by what other fans like, people are supposed to post theories and outlooks that are different.  I hate the idea of Sandor and Sansa but many people love the pairing, it's never bothered me.  Fandom will always be fandom I guess.

I see Jon/Sansa waging a passive aggressive power struggle until the WW threat is driven home to all.   I then think she'll probably be the first Northerner to interact with the newly installed Kings Landing set.   Dany, Tyrion, Theon, Asha, Olenna.  She's had prominent interactions with 3 out of the 5.  I also think LF will be with her or she'll be with him at the time.  I don't think LF will die in Winterfell.  I think Dany, Theon, Asha and all other fighters will go North to do the standard sword and sorcery stuff and the people left or at least remaining in Kings Landing will be Varys, (MAYBE Tyrion), Olenna, Littlefinger, Sansa and maybe a Dorne character or two.

[SeanC]

8 hours ago, anamika said:

No, it’s not obvious.  According to you, it should not make a difference if Brienne swears her fealty to Sansa or Arya right? What did Brienne do for the entirety of season 5 anyway? Fight some soldiers, reminisce with Pod and sit in a motel room. She could have done the same on her way to Bravos and in Bravos while Arya did her FM training. They could have met up in episode 4 in season 6 and traveled to the River lands together, since that’s where both of them end up anyways. It's possible, if they wanted Brienne to be with Arya.

They had Brienne in the North  because she followed Sansa and they wanted to end Stannis' arc and so used Brienne to give Stannis a send off. Stannis could have as well died at the end of Ramsay’s hand. Do you think Brienne kills Stannis in the books?

No, I don't at all think Brienne will kill Stannis in the books.  But the writers of the show clearly wanted her too; in retrospect, they made a point of bringing it up again well before Season 5 itself; for instance, in the DVD feature about the Stormlands that Brienne narrated, which ends with her again vowing revenge on Stannis.  So putting Brienne in the North allowed her to do that.  Brienne being in Braavos with Arya and traveling back with her would also not have lined up with their wanting Brienne to be in Riverrun, and it wouldn't have lined up with Arya's story.  Effectively, when they slotted Sansa into Jeyne Poole's role, they slotted Brienne into Mors Umber's.

Quote

They split Jon’s arc into two. His season 5 arc was about the Wildlings. His season 6 arc was about Winterfell and Ramsay. The whole conflict with the vows comes into question with the decision that Jon takes to go attack Ramsay for his sister. That was still doable in season 6 because he apparently only hears about Winterfell and Ramsay in season 6. Ramsay was Theon and Jon’s nemesis in the books, not Sansa’s.  Jon does not require Sansa goading him to go attack Winterfell, he does it himself in the books. That’s where his breaking the vows come in.

Once you move the Ramsay issue past Jon's assassination, you remove the possibility of conflict over vows, because Jon's vows are inoperable after he dies and comes back to life.

Edited July 23, 2016 by SeanC

[Avaleigh]

9 hours ago, screamin said:

ITA. The actors know what is actually going to happen in the show but are under mandate to never say it - and in fact to say the opposite (Jon is DEAD! He's not coming back! Really!) So if Sophie is hinting that Sansa's going to betray Jon through ambition, it's likely that's a possibility that will appear on the show but then turn out to be a red herring.

Ditto my above reasoning for this point. I don't think we can rule out Jonsa for that reason - if they WERE thinking about it, they certainly wouldn't tell us, and would probably lie and say the opposite.

Yeah, I don't think Jon/Sansa has been shutdown. They aren't going to tip their hands if they can help it. We all knew that Jon was coming back and they refused to give it away even though it became more obvious with each passing month. I seriously doubt the showrunners care whether Sophie likes the idea of Jonsa or not. 

I don't understand Sophie's comments about Jon and Sansa. I get that she's only 20 but I'm not seeing where Sansa's shown herself to be a smarter person than Jon. The idea that Sansa has more experience than Jon just makes me want to laugh out loud. Experience doing what? I can't even say that they have an equal amount of experience--Jon seems to be more experienced than Sansa in almost every way save experiencing a crash course as a royal hostage at King's Landing. In terms of being a leader (and a chosen leader at that), Jon has had to make difficult decisions, solve problems, fight, develop relationships with his men, sacrifice his own personal happiness for the sake of duty and honor, etc. 

Sansa showed the same kind of naivety that Jon did in the earlier episodes where she said that they needed to fight for Rickon and their other siblings. She later changed her mind without explanation and suddenly made it seem like Jon was the one who was delusional and out of it for thinking that they ever had a real chance of getting Rickon back without acknowledging that she'd too expressed the same thoughts until she saw Shaggydog's head. 

As for LF being Sansa's greatest ally, I can maybe, maybe buy Sansa thinking it (even though it would make her the giant fool that Sophie claims Sansa isn't), but I don't understand *Sophie* thinking that it's true for Sansa considering LF's role in the destruction of her life and family. 

It's very strange to me that Jon can show his loyalty to Sansa on every level and she doesn't really seem to respect or appreciate it. Jon has earned Sansa's resentment, disloyalty, and lack of trust and there seems to be no good reason for it. Meanwhile, LF can be a lying, troublemaking, shit stirrer who isn't trustworthy at all but because he flatters Sansa's ego, that makes him preferable to Sansa over the sibling who is willing to give up his life for hers if necessary. After all of the growth that Sansa goes through, this is the end result? Very disappointing.

It irritates me that Sansa seems like she's going to resent Jon next season as opposed to valuing his presence. 

Edited July 23, 2016 by Avaleigh
Cause Grey Wind and Shaggydog aren't the same.

[Minneapple]

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

I've never been on board the "Jonsa" ship regardless (though I think the actors have a nice though ambiguous onscreen chemistry) but hasn't that been around for some time?  All the fan work/art and everything that goes with it?   And this was before the two characters ever really interacted in cannon.   I think people will still ship them, it's there right to do so.   Not one for fanfic really but holy crap I see why people here say that ship has kind of exploded.  I only know of one place to find that stuff and there are a LOT of them but then again Sansa seems to have the largest body of fan works period of all the characters.

I see why the show runners have ST as a mainstay at these events.  Though I'll never understand why some people are so bothered by what other fans like, people are supposed to post theories and outlooks that are different.  I hate the idea of Sandor and Sansa but many people love the pairing, it's never bothered me.  Fandom will always be fandom I guess.

Oh yeah, yeah. People will ship whoever they want until the end of time. No ship-shaming here, I just meant I thought the ship was dead in the show. But never say never, I suppose.

I think Sansa is popular in fanworks because of her "little black dress" status. She's connected to an awful lot of big important characters. Plus her character and plot are more of a grey/unknown area than others, so it's sort of easy to mold her into whatever they think she'll become. 

[YaddaYadda]

24 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

It's very strange to me that Jon can show his loyalty to Sansa on every level and she doesn't really seem to respect or appreciate it. Jon has earned Sansa's resentment, disloyalty, and lack of trust and there seems to be no good reason for it. Meanwhile, LF can be a lying, troublemaking, shit stirrer who isn't trustworthy at all but because he flatters Sansa's ego, that makes him preferable to Sansa over the sibling who is willing to give up his life for hers if necessary. After all of the growth that Sansa goes through, this is the end result? Very disappointing.

It irritates me that Sansa seems like she's going to resent Jon next season as opposed to valuing his presence. 

In the end, I think it really comes down to the seeds that LF planted in her head, and how reminded her twice of who Jon was to her. A bastard, her half-brother, someone who wasn't born in the North.

LF went for what would make the most damage to a relationship that is fragile. 4 to 6 months (because I'm assuming months passed since Sansa arrived at the Castle Black) together doesn't erase a lifetime of them ignoring each others' existence. LF is nothing if not smart and manipulative. That's not say he didn't see the bannermen of House Stark pledge their swords once more to them, but I don't think he was expecting the whole KitN business.

At this point, I'm just looking forward to the big reveal of Jon's true parentage. 

And if this resentment for her part not being publicly acknowledged, I'm pretty sure the northern lords know why the army of the Vale is there. It's not like they've forgotten that Lysa and Catelyn were sisters. The Vale gives no fucks about Jon Snow, and I think Glover & Co all know that. But Sansa, girl, this has nothing to do with you or your hurt feelings.

There won't be a Winterfell left when the WW march south of the Wall. There will be no home to go to and no Iron Throne to sit on because they will obliterate everything that's in their path. 

Sansa - smaller picture

Jon - Bigger picture.

[Hana Chan]

4 hours ago, TxanGoddess said:

I don't see it as a competition, but since the discussion generally seems to be whether they made Sansa look smart vs Jon look dumb, I think Sansa's overall attitude to Ser Davos was utterly stupid.  Sophie Turner has said that Sansa doesn't think much of him, whch I think is born out by Sansa's derisive attitude about him when she speaks to Jon later, but just let's explore why she doesn't think highly of him.  Because he told her something she didn't want to hear about the Northern lords, she argued with him, and he ended up being completely in the right.  She basically doesn't like him because he bruised her ego.  

Sansa, IMO, still has a prejudice in favor of born nobility vs those who aren't born on silk sheets but who are smart, capable and rise on account of their own merits. Littlefinger certainly felt that he had a read on her by reminding her that Jon was a bastard who hadn't even been born in Winterfell, delegitimizing whatever rational Sansa had for supporting Jon at first. She went from making Jon a cloak that looked like the one Ned wore and believing that Jon was vital to retaking Winterfell (to the point of driving home the point that this was their home and Rickon was their brother) to considering Jon little more than hired muscle to be put aside now that the hard part was done. In one episode Sansa went from telling Jon that he was a Stark to her and that he should be the one taking the Lord's bedchamber to thinking that she isn't being given the credit that she deserves and should be QITN.

Jon may not be a political thinker the way Tyrion is, but he's not stupid. He's lead men before, and been in the position of "lord" back at Castle Black. He sees the big picture in a way that Sansa just doesn't. And Jon has inspired the Northern Lords in a way that Sansa just isn't capable of. There's something to be said that not a single lord at the council spoke up on Sansa's behalf and her "rights" to the title. Sansa may be Ned's trueborn daughter, but no one sees her as a leader. Certainly not a leader in a time of war, which is what the North is facing.

Sansa isn't stupid, but she is still prone to being manipulated and the fact that a man who sold her into a marriage that left her so totally brutalized physically, emotionally and sexually still can have any influence over her is deeply troubling. If Sansa had become a political thinker along the line of Varys or Olenna, she would recognize that Jon being KITN is the best thing for her benefit. She has influence over Jon (as his sister) if she's willing to actually speak up instead of expecting Jon to come to her, but she's also got protection. As I've said before, Jon would never use her as a political chit and force her into a marriage for his own purposes. My hope is that this "conflict" is short lived and that Sansa comes to this realization herself (rather than being shut down by Jon or one of his supporters) and that it ends up being the final downfall of Littlefinger (who made his bet on someone who wasn't going to fall for his manipulations).

[Katsullivan]

4 hours ago, doram said:

The whole Jonsa thing reminds me of when the producers of Avatar: The Last Airbender repeatedly shut down the possibility of Zutara and the Zutara fans said that rather than the producers obviously trying to forestall the backlash of their disappointment, it was Evidence that Zutara *was* going to happen. Because if it wasn't going to happen, they'd have said it was. ??? ::shakes head:: So that's how that pairing went from a crack ship to a 'meant to be canon' ship, and to date, 5 years and counting after that show ended, the fans still bear a grudge. I know fans will ship what they will, but looking for hidden (opposite) interpretations in plain statements has never ended well.

If JK Rowling figuratively dropping anvils on the Harry/Hermione shippers didn't stop them from hoping for a Harmione endgame in book 7 and being furious that she wrote an epilogue that put Paid to all the shipping theories, then I doubt that the SDCC panel will make an impact on Jonsa speculations. Fans will ship what they will, and will be disappointed even after being given fair warning. It's just the nature of fandom.  

[TxanGoddess]

Eh nm

Edited July 23, 2016 by TxanGoddess

[benteen]

Yeah, Sophie's interpretation of Sansa is just odd.  If Sansa trusts Littlefinge then she is the biggest fool of all.  At best, LF should be viewed by her as a necessary evil.  LF is her greatest ally until she becomes an impediment to her.

I laughed too at the thought that Sansa could be this great ruler.  Based on what?

Doubting Jon's intelligence does seem to be a theme of the writers.  Jon has plenty of flaws as a leader in the book and that's what gets him killed.  But in the North, he knows Northern politics and he's capable of leading.  On the show, he's so passive, is constantly called stupid and is incapable of verbally defending himself in any way.  It's frustrating.

[screamin]

On 7/23/2016 at 0:48 PM, doram said:

I know fans will ship what they will, but looking for hidden (opposite) interpretations in plain statements has never ended well.

I don't know, I don't remember any particular harm coming to me from assuming Kit Harington was outright lying when he plainly said Jon was dead and staying that way.

Edited July 24, 2016 by screamin

[Knuckles]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

On the show, he's so passive, is constantly called stupid and is incapable of verbally defending himself in any way.  It's frustrating.

I'm not sure about that. John has pure leadership qualities...in that men are willing to follow him into dangerous situations and trust his skill and ideas. As for verbally defending himself...well, he managed to negotiate twice with Mance, he made an ally of Tormund, he managed to make most of the wildilng leadership listen to him at Hardhome, he impressed Stannis, and he brought the doubting wildlings into the battle at Snowball. He may not put himself forward forcefully, but he can negotiate and turn enemies and rivals into allies. Not all of course, but he can be tough and unyielding as well...I am thinking of his clear orders to Janos Slynt, and his swinging the axe afterward.

[GrailKing]

On 7/23/2016 at 8:18 AM, TxanGoddess said:

One more small point that honestly just occurred to me while I was writing this.  A lot has been made out of Sansa's withholding the Vale army information from Jon, rightfully so.  But you know what else she waited to say until the last minute?  Flat out telling him that Ramsay was not going to let Rickon live no matter what they did.  Now I'm not sure why she didn't ... Sansa's motives are opaque throughout this season, but let's assume they are somewhere between the wide points of flat out using Jon and actually caring about him too, just caring about herself more lol.  So if you're her and you never have a serious talk with Jon telling him that, I guess its because you want him to stay highly motivated to fight since he was shaky at the outset?  I don't know.  But having her say it when she did, in the middle of a pretty emotional confrontation the very night before the fight ... I don't think that did any favors to Jon's mindset.  The minute he saw Rickon, that had to be the only thing in his head.  No wonder he fucked things up trying to save him.

It's very possible that if she had told him under calmer circumstances, he might have been able to make a wiser decision at the battle.  Well, I'm starting to ramble.  Just thought this was all worth throwing out there.  I do love to see this sort of vigorous disagreement all stated so passionately!   

ETA:  In fairness to Sansa, maybe she just also didn't want to admit to herself that Rickon was lost either way, but it still would have been good if she had been able to prepare Jon somehow imo.  Generally, I still don't see any of this as Jon v Sansa, and I don't think either of them is anywhere near the league of LF, Tyrion, Olenna etc as players.  I don't dislike either one, and still see a high potential for them to work together, but just with some wonderful drama and tension.    

What makes you say the last minute? she said it the evening before the battle and after seeing Ramsey or Karstark throw  Shaggy's head to the ground, then delivered her your going to die tomorrow speech to him.

It was seeing the wolf head on the ground that convinced her that Rickon was going to die OR was already dead at Winterfell; she was not at the battlefield in the morning, she probably thought Ramsey already killed her brother, maybe not thinking he save him for the battle, hence when Jon asked her what should he do her only reply was don't fall for his trap.

I wonder how people would have felt if she was there and physically try to keep Jon from breaking his plan and decided to save Rickon, only to get himself also killed. I don't think it go over well.

[GrailKing]

On 7/23/2016 at 9:43 AM, YaddaYadda said:

I know that none of this is canon, but I'm so annoyed by some of the things I've been reading out of the panel. 

LF is Sansa's biggest ally...really? This is the man who sold her to the family that participated in murdering her family at the red wedding. This is the family that stole her home. He did that for gain, not for Sansa. 

Sansa knows LF's ambitions for the iron throne and Jon is now standing in his way. If Turner says that LF is Sansa's biggest ally, does that mean Sansa is LF's biggest ally? In which case, Sansa didn't mean what she said when she told Jon that to her he was a Stark since the second LF reminds her that Jon is her half brother, she starts lying to Jon, and the second LF reminds her that Jon is a bastard born in the south, her entire demeanor changes, like her seeking Jon's forgiveness for being an ass to him for years meant nothing in the end. 

For someone who said that only a fool would trust LF, Sansa will be the biggest fool of them all if she trusts him and I really hope she doesn't.

And maybe it's harsh because it's one person's opinion and we have no idea what the writers are telling the actors, or what the scripts they receive look like, but there was a reason they paralleled Jon's moment as KitN with Robb's moment. So there's that, I guess.

As someone who has read the books, it's just really difficult not to go back and compare them with the show. And I agree that Jon in the books was someone who was learning to rule, so I'm really hoping we get some of that next season. 

I'm assuming news of Queen Cersei will be arriving soon enough, Dany will be landing with a massive army, some extremely disciplined fighters and 3 dragons. LF will have his hands full. 

Hope he dies sooner rather than later. 

I'm of the opinion that every thing Sophie is saying is a smoke screen; knowing how Sansa thinks in the books, and how Sansa was put in danger by LF In show I think she will use dubious means to keep LF off balance while Sansa tries to have Jon's back, unfortunately she may not come out looking good or smelling sweet . 

No matter what has been said by Sophie, Liam and Kit that last scene did not look like a ok LF you may be right, it looked like I have an enemy and an oh shit moment.

Sansa Stark the Thorn in the North.

[Funzlerks]

I can see her trusting him in a "devil you know" way.  Like, she assumes the worst in about everyone she meets due to her experiences and Littlefinger seems like someone she can begin to understand.  So, it is more of a trust   Littlefinger to behave in a certain way rather than trust him to have her back unquestioningly.  I think she would be wrong because one of Littlefinger's most brilliant stratagems is to sometimes do things irrationally or just to promote general chaos.

[Love]

15 hours ago, GrailKing said:

No matter what has been said by Sophie, Liam and Kit that last scene did not look like a ok LF you may be right, it looked like I have an enemy and an oh shit moment.

That's what I thought too.  I saw it as, Sansa caught a look at LF, and she realized exactly what/who she was dealing with.  To me, it looked like she realized Jon might be in trouble. 

[TxanGoddess]

Posted by Grail King

What makes you say the last minute? she said it the evening before the battle and after seeing Ramsey or Karstark throw  Shaggy's head to the ground, then delivered her your going to die tomorrow speech to him.

Well I think the night before is pretty last minute but ymmv.  It was Umber btw.

It was seeing the wolf head on the ground that convinced her that Rickon was going to die OR was already dead at Winterfell; she was not at the battlefield in the morning, she probably thought Ramsey already killed her brother, maybe not thinking he save him for the battle, hence when Jon asked her what should he do her only reply was don't fall for his trap.

I never thought of that interpretation.  That's a great point.  I'm at work right now, not home where the shows are, but there was something said at Castle Black that later tuned me in to the idea that she thought Rickon was a goner either way ... but like I say, right its somewhere else and later on.  You're idea is just as valid, and simply hadn't occurred to me.

I wonder how people would have felt if she was there and physically try to keep Jon from breaking his plan and decided to save Rickon, only to get himself also killed. I don't think it go over well.

Oh well now you're just being silly.  I don't blame Sansa for Rickon's death or Jon's foolish charge (the foolish one being the one after Rickon died) it just stood out to me as one of those What if? moments.

[SeanC]

Iain Glen and Gwendoline Christie were both spotted heading to Belfast.  Maybe Jorah is finally getting a new costume this year!

[GrailKing]

4 hours ago, TxanGoddess said:

Posted by Grail King

 

 

Well I think the night before is pretty last minute but ymmv.  It was Umber btw.

 

 

I never thought of that interpretation.  That's a great point.  I'm at work right now, not home where the shows are, but there was something said at Castle Black that later tuned me in to the idea that she thought Rickon was a goner either way ... but like I say, right its somewhere else and later on.  You're idea is just as valid, and simply hadn't occurred to me.

 

 

Oh well now you're just being silly.  I don't blame Sansa for Rickon's death or Jon's foolish charge (the foolish one being the one after Rickon died) it just stood out to me as one of those What if? moments.

You may not, but you're only 1 person.

Tormond spoke for all, directors, viewers etc." Don't"  so even the first charge was foolish, honourable, but foolish.

[Eyes High]

Deadline is reporting that The Spy Who Came In From the Cold is going to be adapted for a limited series (from the same team that did the recent adaptation of The Night Manager). Aidan Gillen is being considered for the lead (Leamas). Not sure if there are any implications for GOT. Most fans figure that Season 7 will be LF's last in any event.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Eyes High

[TxanGoddess]

You may not, but you're only 1 person.

Absolutely.  I can only speak for myself.  Your point probably stands for some other viewers :). 

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Deadline is reporting that The Spy Who Came In From the Cold is going to be adapted for a limited series (from the same team that did the recent adaptation of The Night Manager). Aidan Gillen is being considered for the lead (Leamas). Not sure if there are any implications for GOT. Most fans figure that Season 7 will be LF's last in any event.

Yeah, I don't think that necessarily indicates anything (even if most of us have thought Gillen was probably done this season anyway).  Gillen had, what, five or six scenes in Season 6?  If for some reason he was in Season 8, it's far from improbable that they could juggle his commitments.  They've done that for other castmembers.

[YaddaYadda]

I sort of like that there seems to be this sort of "swap" going on with the characters. Tyrion and Theon two people who knew the Starks well enough, Theon grew up with Jon and Tyrion who spent time with him and got to know him a little bit at the Wall.

Jorah possibly in the North, back home, and he was with Dany for years where he can actually talk her up.

And Jaime is the last living Kingsguard who served under Aerys, knew Rhaegar even if it was a little bit, took his vows during the tourney of Harrenhal where the great scandal happened.

Seems things are finally on a collision course.

[OhOkayWhat]

Just now, YaddaYadda said:

Seems things are finally on a collision course.

Riverlands will be a complete chaos. Too many "broken men" groups walking around there (Frey, Tully, ex-BWB, etc), and the rest of main and secondary characters......totally unpredictable!