Season 7: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Minneapple]

On 2016-06-07 at 0:11 PM, Eyes High said:

4. Season 7 will have a number of battles either in castles or next to them. HBO is on the hunt for castles, which is great, because Spain has more than 2,500.

Here for this. I wonder if we'll ever see Casterly Rock.

[paigow]

Which castles have not been shown in 6 seasons that would still be relevant? Will the Night King make a wrong turn and end up at Redshirt Castle?

Edited June 8, 2016 by paigow

[jjjmoss]

Aren't Highgarden, Casterly Rock, and Storm's End unseen?

[Eyes High]

WOTW mentioned today a podcast D&D did in February 2016 discussing the writing of one scene for Season 7. Apparently, it started as a simple scene with four character in the throne room and ended up as a "three-day extravaganza," a parade through the streets of KL with a thousand extras (filmed in Dubrovnik).

[Athena]

This thread is for speculation and spoilers discussion of Season 7. For a news, information, media links on S7, please go to the Season 7: Info, Casting, and Spoilers (News Only, No Discussion) thread.

[CofCinci]

On June 9, 2016 at 6:59 PM, Eyes High said:

WOTW mentioned today a podcast D&D did in February 2016 discussing the writing of one scene for Season 7. Apparently, it started as a simple scene with four character in the throne room and ended up as a "three-day extravaganza," a parade through the streets of KL with a thousand extras (filmed in Dubrovnik).

Crowning Tommen's successor? Low-key scene turned into an extravaganza....  Interesting. 

[ElizaD]

On 10. kesäkuuta 2016 at 1:59 AM, Eyes High said:

WOTW mentioned today a podcast D&D did in February 2016 discussing the writing of one scene for Season 7. Apparently, it started as a simple scene with four character in the throne room and ended up as a "three-day extravaganza," a parade through the streets of KL with a thousand extras (filmed in Dubrovnik).

So Cersei will only blow up the Sept and the fire won't spread? I was so fond of the idea that when Dany arrives KL will be a ruin, showing how useless the game has become now that the realm is in danger, but this makes it sound like Cersei either clings to power as queen regnant or a thriving city throws a parade to celebrate Dany. It's more likely to be Dany; Cersei's going to kill off so many characters from her supporting cast that it could be tough to find four survivors.

I don't think there's going to be any shades of gray in Dany's conquest, as some have speculated. She's going to continue to be a speech-making heroine who gets delivered everything she wants with hardly any effort. This reveal makes it sound like the city rewards her for bringing a horde of barbarian/Ironborn rapists to KL with a massive parade and she will have to do absolutely nothing to earn anyone's respect or dismiss fears of the Mad King's daughter: adoration will automatically be given to her and no mistakes from the past will be allowed to haunt her rule or make Tyrion's job as Hand tougher (the last time he was in KL he killed his father after he was convicted of regicide, but who cares).

[Harald Hardrada]

Perhaps in Season 7 they could introduce the real Vikings of Westeros, the warriors of Skagos. They supposed to be fierce war-like people even more so than the Free Folk, a rival of the Ironborn. I knew HBO wouldn't copied it straight from the books, only some changes they made like Osha and the cannibalistic Thenn in the past seasons. GOT needs berserkers and longships to make it up for the boring political crap of the South.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Two casting notices out for Season 7, for a 16-year-old Northern girl and a 10-year-old Northern boy, both part of a "high-stakes scene."

for the girl I'm going with Ally Karstark, and pair her to a Wildling

Young boy no real clue.

[Greta]

Did the podcast specifically mention that the 1000-person scene was in KL, though?  Because it could be a parade though another city (Lannisport?  The city where Manderly lives I'm too lazy to look up right now?)  Alternatively, were the four characters from the original scene specified?  Maybe it's part of a Bran TreeVRing flashback.

[Maximum Taco]

On 6/17/2016 at 5:31 PM, GrailKing said:

 

  Hide contents

for the girl I'm going with Ally Karstark, and pair her to a Wildling

 

Young boy no real clue.

You still think they are doing that story? It doesn't seem at all necessary.

The whole Alys Karstark thing was to partly to misdirect Jon to thinking Arya would be arriving at Castle Black, partly to highlight the meddling Jon was doing that he shouldn't be doing as LC, and partly to take power from the Karstarks (and inform Stannis of their treachery), who seem likely to all be dead. I don't see what purpose it would serve to introduce her after the Battle of the Bastards, since Jon and Sansa seem like they'll already be consolidating their power at the end of this season.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[ElizaD]

My first thought was that the young Northerners could be for a Hardhome-ish scene, either refugees arriving at Winterfell to beg for aid against the White Walkers or characters that Jon will try to rescue in an action scene that shows a castle/village under siege by undead.

[SeanC]

Yeah, I don't see any particular reason to expect to see Alys at this point.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Maximum Taco said:

You still think they are doing that story? It doesn't seem at all necessary.

The whole Alys Karstark thing was to partly to misdirect Jon to thinking Arya would be arriving at Castle Black, partly to highlight the meddling Jon was doing that he shouldn't be doing as LC, and partly to take power from the Karstarks (and inform Stannis of their treachery), who seem likely to all be dead. I don't see what purpose it would serve to introduce her after the Battle of the Bastards, since Jon and Sansa seem like they'll already be consolidating their power at the end of this season.

Some form of it yes, if not Alys some other northern house.

High stakes to me is either you die or you win big, he has the wildlings for BOB, he needs to tie them in with the north.

Rescuing some refugees isn't high stakes to me, but hey we've all been wrong more then once, and we may be wrong again.

Maybe the mountain clans?

Edited June 19, 2016 by GrailKing

[Haleth]

The only thing I can think of wrt Alys is that she might represent the Karstarks belatedly returning to the fold.  Maybe her escape and marriage to a Wildling will be a plot point next season, as unnecessary as it seems now.  (As long as it isn't Tormund!)

[kittykat]

If Harrion Karstark  (or whatever his name is in the show, the one allied with Ramsay ) dies tonight or next week wouldn't that make Alys the heir?  She could be a player next season when the WW become the main concern.  And the Wildling wedding could be a way to solidify them entering into the fold since the involvement of them seems to be the main dispute between the North this season.

[Winnief]

Quote

My first thought was that the young Northerners could be for a Hardhome-ish scene, either refugees arriving at Winterfell to beg for aid against the White Walkers or characters that Jon will try to rescue in an action scene that shows a castle/village under siege by undead.

My first thought was the White Walkers as well.  The show's been sending all the characters up North for a reason and the reason is clearly because that's where the battle of the second dawn will take place.  With the Bolton's gone, (and House Frey about to join them is my guess,)things are now really going to escalate in the battle against the Night's King.  Yes, there are the Lannister's but really they do a far, FAR better job of destroying themselves than any outside force could ever do.   The number of plotlines is condensing, and I doubt we'll get much if any Essos next season.  (Good riddance.) 

 

Personally would LOVE if we saw Highgarden OR Casterley Rock next season.

It sounds like a set-up for Dany as the YMBQ in terms of logistics but I still think Sansa makes most sense dramatically.-and she's now Jon's co-ruler in the North

Also, having Tormund and Davos chatting on how "Jon's no King," was pretty blatant foreshadowing if I ever saw it!

[CofCinci]

Well, I guess we know who won't be returning next season.

Edited June 27, 2016 by CofCinci

[benteen]

I suspect Daario will take the Second Sons and work for Cersei next year.  He's got info on Dany and the dragons (or as much as possible) and he clearly blames Tyrion for this.

[Winnief]

Well I'd like to say I called it on "Jon's No King."  I expect next season we'll get some major intrigue with LF/Jon/Sansa.  This will NOT end well for LF. 

 

Valonqar anyone?!?  Seriously, Jaime it took you THIS long to realize Cersei's evil?!?

 

So looks like Arya will re-unite with the Red Woman next season and Seven only knows what will happen.

 

Dany's coming to Westeros!!!  Dany's coming to Westeros!!!

 

The Citadel has the best library ever-I'm in HEAT for that library!  Now I'm REALLY invested in Euron's upcoming attack on Oldtown...primarily because I can't bear the thought of the IB torching that library.  Not to mention it's entirely possible there might be something in there that could be useful to fighting the White Walkers. 

 

In all likelihood once Dany gets to Westeros, Cersei will HAVE to flee to CR, so we will see it...possibly Highgarden as well.

 

I think the final shot next season will be the Wall coming down. Now as for HOW that happens...well your guess is good as mine.   

[Oscirus]

Next season will likely be Littlefinger's journey to the throne. I imagine that Dany and co. get sidetracked before they head to King's landing

Edited June 27, 2016 by Oscirus

[SeanC]

So, preliminary survey of the next season.  Interestingly, it felt like this season set up a bunch of dominos that should be falling way quicker than the seven episodes the season is slated to last.

In particular, in the South, Cersei has proclaimed herself Queen.  House Stark and House Arryn are in open revolt (I'm not clear on what the Vale's political status is now, whether King Robin is now King Jon's ally, or whatever), though admittedly not likely to be actively fighting the throne.  The Riverlands are in chaos (on a side note, they made a point of telling us that Edmure was back in the cells at the Twins; is Arya going to help him out?), and with Walder Frey dead, there's not going to be any help in that quarter.  Dany is about to land in Westeros, backed by House Martell, House Tyrell, (part of) House Greyjoy, 100,000 Dothraki riders, 8000 Unsullied infantry and three fully grown dragons.

How does Cersei possibly resist that for more than an episode or two, unless Dany spends most of the season s-l-o-o-o-o-w-l-y heading toward King's Landing, Renly-style?  I'm starting to wonder if those speculations about Cersei marrying Euron to get some dark magic mojo are true, because otherwise this seems like it should be over pretty quickly.

[benteen]

Cersei's REALLY going to need Euron's magic horn (and that's not a dick joke).  As I mentioned earlier, I expect she'll hire the Second Sons too.  And I assume she'll have a lot of Wildfire left.  But who does she have backing her right now?  Casterly Rock and perhaps the Storm Lands.

[Winnief]

Quote

How does Cersei possibly resist that for more than an episode or two, unless Dany spends most of the season s-l-o-o-o-o-w-l-y heading toward King's Landing, Renly-style?  I'm starting to wonder if those speculations about Cersei marrying Euron to get some dark magic mojo are true, because otherwise this seems like it should be over pretty quickly.

I've thought that might happen for a long time myself!   Also, I doubt Cersei will *stay* in KL for very long, but will beat a retreat to the Rock, which is easier for her to defend. 

 

And remember even if/when Cersei meets her fate at the hands of the Valonqar, and Euron is disposed of, there's still that pesky matter of the White Walkers...

[SeanC]

In the North, meanwhile, they're pretty obviously signposting Littlefinger stirring up shit in the Stark camp and pitting Jon v. Sansa for his own benefit.  Much like the above, there's a number of different things moving outside of this plotline you would think might disrupt it, such as the return of Bran (he has to come back, right?) and Arya and, for those engaged in theorizing for a long time, the Hound presumably heading up north with the Brotherhood with the knowledge of Littlefinger's betrayal of Ned.  But anyway, I'm sure it will all play out.

Actually, sort of related to the above, is the show done with the Riverlands?  They just killed Walder, who you'd think would be the final boss of any Riverlands story, but on the other hand:  Brienne hasn't returned to Winterfell (though conversely, Jaime is back in King's Landing, which seems like it should kill any thought of them reuniting in the near future, or possibly ever; from his final scene, he's on the path to valonqarhood), Arya's still in the Riverlands (and they made a point of mentioning that Edmure was in jail at the Twins; details on this show don't always matter, but maybe Arya's going to spring her uncle?), and Melisandre, who Arya is foreshadowed to meet, is riding south.  Now, maybe Arya will accost her on the way up, and run into Brienne, the Brotherhood, et al. while they're all waiting in line at the toll booth at Moat Cailin.

Or is Arya going to head to KL to try to finish off her list?  You would think the news of the Stark resurrection and Jon's crowning would be an irresistible pull northward, though.

And then there's Sam, whose role in all this is still a complete mystery.  The show didn't give any further indicators what the importance of Oldtown is.

Also, Bran notably hasn't crossed the Wall yet, so I'm not sure if the theory of the Night King's mark is more or less likely to be true.  Though the Three-Eyed Raven would have to be criminally incompetent to have sent him south if it was.

Edited June 27, 2016 by SeanC

[Mathius]

Quote

they're pretty obviously signposting Littlefinger stirring up shit in the Stark camp and pitting Jon v. Sansa for his own benefit.

I don't see that at all, Sansa made it pretty clear she's not going to be fighting against Jon and she's done with Littlefinger.  

What's being set up to me is Littlefinger v. Sansa, with Jon's fate in the balance.

[SeanC]

6 minutes ago, Mathius said:

I don't see that at all, Sansa made it pretty clear she's not going to be fighting against Jon and she's done with Littlefinger.  

What's being set up to me is Littlefinger v. Sansa, with Jon's fate in the balance.

They pretty clearly spell out there'll be Jon v. Sansa tension in this video.

Which I think fits with where the books are probably headed, though in the books Sansa's probably going to be a lot more directly under the control of Baelish than she is in the show.  This will all be heading toward Baelish's final resolution, when the full depth of his betrayal of House Stark is revealed, etc.

Edited June 27, 2016 by SeanC

[Minneapple]

6 minutes ago, Mathius said:

What's being set up to me is Littlefinger v. Sansa, with Jon's fate in the balance.

This was my impression as well, can Sansa outwit Littlefinger. I really hope she can and I really hope she winds up killing Littlefinger.

[SeanC]

3 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

This was my impression as well, can Sansa outwit Littlefinger. I really hope she can and I really hope she winds up killing Littlefinger.

I don't think those things are mutually exclusive.  I'd say this ends with Sansa taking Baelish down, ultimately rejecting the things he tempts her with; but he'll probably have some success beforehand, for the purpose of drama.

[Oscirus]

I think we're done with the second sons. If Dario turns on Dany that would mean that Mereen failed and Dany would have to return again to fix thing.

[SeanC]

Just now, Oscirus said:

I think we're done with the second sons. If Dario turns on Dany that would mean that Mereen failed and Dany would have to return again to fix thing.

Yeah, I agree.  Daario in the show has been played as a fairly noble fellow, all things considered; I don't think he'd turn on Dany out of revenge (plus, he of all people would know how suicidal that would be).

Thinking on the prophesied Arya/Mel meeting, I wonder if it will be Mel who brings her the news of her siblings' location?  I'm not sure what role Mel is going to have going forward.  She's been rejected by the person she regards as a savior, she's got that one plot point, and then?  Maybe she'll run into Dany?

Conversely, if Jon's missing a red priest, perhaps that's the significance of Thoros heading north?

[Oscirus]

I'd imagine that Arya would have to hear about the Starks taking back Winterfell in her travels. We'll likely have the last four starks reunite early in the season to go ahead and separate again later to meet their destinies.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Oscirus

[Eyes High]

I agree that the show is setting up Littlefinger pitting Jon against Sansa for his own benefit, with Sansa's anger and resentment towards Jon pushing her towards Littlefinger. It seems telling to me that 6x10's North storyline had Sansa very warm and cozy with Jon and at the end looking worried and seeing Littlefinger's knowing look as she is completely ignored in favour of Jon. The video linked by SeanC certainly reinforces that impression, though:

Kit: "Thrones is really at the heart of it about dysfunctional families (...) I think Jon is oblivious (...) He's not listening, watching and observing her. I think that could be a real problem for him."

Liam: "I think he's definitely entitled to be running Winterfell, although Sansa might have a problem with it, I fear. Her relationship with Jon Snow, I think, is an indication of what's to come, and I'm not sure it's going to be pretty."

Sophie: "He's named KITN and she kinda gets no credit for it. Jon doesn't acknowledge everything his sister has done for him. (...) Jon, he's so naive, so Sansa's just a little bit agitated is all."

[SeanC]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

I'd imagine that Arya would have to hear about the Starks taking over Winterfell in her travels. We'll likely have the last four starks reunite early in the season to go ahead and separate again later to meet their destinies.

D&D's comments on the Inside the Episode about Arya kind of make me wonder where they're going with her, because they do more of the "Arya's now a coldblooded murder-machine" spiel and how we should be worried for her as a result.  So maybe she's going to be going south instead in pursuit of more vengeance?

Though the issue I can see with that is, well, Arya is not going to kill Cersei; Jaime is.  Also, frankly, since Arya has somehow acquired the ability to change faces, it seems like she should be able to kill Cersei quite easily if she put her mind to it.

Arya remains a wildcard in the plot.  Though, unless they've fallen victim to the great budgetary axe, she'll presumably be staying in the Riverlands long enough to collect her huge pack of wolves.

[Oscirus]

I still come back to the part where Jaquen tells Arya she's no one. It's an unnecessary line, except if it's about Arya's facility for murder. That being said I still think she's seeing her family next year and either she rejects them or she snaps out of it. I'm leaning towards her ultimately rejecting them.

[Minneapple]

37 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I agree that the show is setting up Littlefinger pitting Jon against Sansa for his own benefit, with Sansa's anger and resentment towards Jon pushing her towards Littlefinger. It seems telling to me that 6x10's North storyline had Sansa very warm and cozy with Jon and at the end looking worried and seeing Littlefinger's knowing look as she is completely ignored in favour of Jon. The video linked by SeanC certainly reinforces that impression, though:

Kit: "Thrones is really at the heart of it about dysfunctional families (...) I think Jon is oblivious (...) He's not listening, watching and observing her. I think that could be a real problem for him."

Liam: "I think he's definitely entitled to be running Winterfell, although Sansa might have a problem with it, I fear. Her relationship with Jon Snow, I think, is an indication of what's to come, and I'm not sure it's going to be pretty."

Sophie: "He's named KITN and she kinda gets no credit for it. Jon doesn't acknowledge everything his sister has done for him. (...) Jon, he's so naive, so Sansa's just a little bit agitated is all."

If that's what they were going for in that scene, I completely misinterpreted it. I saw Sansa smiling when the lords all declared for Jon, then looking worried when she looked at Littlefinger. Worried like, I know what he can do, I know how devious he is. She already said anyone would be a fool to trust Littlefinger. Plus I saw zero resentment from Sansa toward Jon in this episode. She told him he should have her parents' room. She told him he's a Stark. She told Littlefinger that everything she believed when she was a child (including that Jon wasn't important because he was a bastard) turned out to be a lie.

I hate Littlefinger, I hate how he takes Sansa's agency away. And plus he's so fucking slimy. *Shudders* The sooner he dies (and hopefully by Sansa's hand), the better.

[Advance35]

Well I've disagreed with actor/actress interpretation before and I don't think they have scripts for next year YET.  So who knows, maybe it will go that way, maybe it won't.  I could see Sansa maneuvering for power or influence but I can't see her turning FULLY against Jon.  Time will tell.

[Eyes High]

I jokingly asked in the 6x10 episode thread about the over/under on whether or not Tyrion had fallen in love with Dany yet. Guesses?

Interesting notes from the Inside the Episode bit for 6x10 as to possible plotlines/arcs in Season 7:

1. Benioff on Cersei: "Now she's sitting on the Iron Throne. I don't think it bodes well for anyone, really. (...) She's capable of doing anything as she's proven in this episode to get what she wants, so the question now is: what does she want?"

2. Benioff on Sansa: "She doesn't necessarily trust [Jon] completely, you know. (...) There's definitely like a little hint of conflict. (...) So I think there's a little bit of anger about that, a little bit of jealousy, and that relationship will be crucial to watch."

3. Benioff on Jon as KITN: "In some ways the evocation of the first [KITN scene] is meant to be a little bit worrisome, because it's a triumphant moment when Robb is named KITN but it didn't go so well for the previous KITN, so I think we have to be a little worried for Jon..."

4. Benioff on Arya: "It's a worrisome narrative for Arya, because, you know, she started as this little girl who was always tough and plucky and whatnot, but, you know, she has become a murderer, and a highly skilled murderer, and even if the murders are justifiable, still, we've witnessed the descent of this girl into someone who's capable of slitting a man's throat and smiling as she watches him bleed out. I don't think anyone's going to be crying over the fate of Walder Frey, but if you love Arya, you have to be a little worried about where she goes from here."

5. Benioff on Dany: "She comes over [to Westeros] as a queen without a king, and that could be really useful in the future."

Quote

If that's what they were going for in that scene, I completely misinterpreted it. I saw Sansa smiling when the lords all declared for Jon, then looking worried when she looked at Littlefinger.

Sansa's big smile at Lyanna talking up the Starks was wiped off her face the moment Lyanna started in on "I don't care if he's a bastard," i.e. when she realized she was about to be passed over in favour of Jon. She looked upset when Manderly praised Jon and called him the KITN. She also looked upset during that long shot of Jon and Sansa when everyone's shouting about the KITN before Jon stands. She smiled at Jon to reassure him that she was okay with it, but she was most definitely not okay with it, as her worried look at LF indicated.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Eyes High

[Minneapple]

20 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Sansa's big smile at Lyanna talking up the Starks was wiped off her face the moment Lyanna started in on "I don't care if he's a bastard," i.e. when she realized she was about to be passed over in favour of Jon. She looked upset when Manderly praised Jon and called him the KITN. She also looked upset during that long shot of Jon and Sansa when everyone's shouting about the KITN before Jon stands. She smiled at Jon to reassure him that she was okay with it, but she was most definitely not okay with it, as her worried look at LF indicated.

When Lyanna mentions that Jon's a bastard, Sansa is still smiling. It's not until she sees Littlefinger when all the other Lords declare for Jon that she loses the smile. Littlefinger has that creepy-ass look on his face as usual. *Shudders*

Edited to add:

I am hoping that, since they left some mystery around Rhaegar/Lyanna, that we finally do get a Tournament at Harrenhal episode next year. I've pretty much hoped for this since I don't know when, but I love the idea of seeing the tournament, and Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and Rhaegar scandalizing everyone by crowning Lyanna with the blue winter roses.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Minneapple

[Oscirus]

Rumors seem to indicate there are no flashbacks next season.  If they were going to show that it likely would've been shown already.

[knaankos]

Let's talk about obstacles for our heroes next season:

We all know that Game of Thrones never does things the days way and so the apparently very easy path that Dany and the Starks now have is surely about to be muddied. But by who or what?

Euron: How big of a role will he play? Will he somehow take out some of the fleet despite having less ships and not having dragons?

Littlefinger: Will he slowly rip apart the Stark's trust in one another?

The White Walkers: The big baddie. Once Dany takes the Iron Throne, will we see a full out war vs the White Walkers? A true battle of fire and Ice?

[bunnyblue]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Sophie: "He's named KITN and she kinda gets no credit for it. Jon doesn't acknowledge everything his sister has done for him. (...) Jon, he's so naive, so Sansa's just a little bit agitated is all."

Well, doesn't Baby Bear Lyanna deserve credit for Jon being named KitN?? Ugh, the bolded part...didn't Jon tell her the battle would have been lost if not for her and the Knights of the Vale? Hell, he called her the Lady of Winterfell and gave her the Lord's bedroom. What is the "everything" else that Sansa has done for Jon that requires acknowledgment? 

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

2. Benioff on Sansa: "She doesn't necessarily trust [Jon] completely, you know. (...) There's definitely like a little hint of conflict. (...) So I think there's a little bit of anger about that, a little bit of jealousy, and that relationship will be crucial to watch."

OMG, what has Jon done to Sansa specifically that would cause him to be untrustworthy? As for the hints and bits of "conflict", "anger", and "jealousy" - yeah I picked up on that this episode and can totally see the show exploring that next season. If I were a Sansa fan, I'd be worried because that sounds like all of those feelings will be coming from Sansa. There's no way Jon is going to come out smelling like anything other than a blue rose.

[Avaleigh]

10 minutes ago, bunnyblue said:

Well, doesn't Baby Bear Lyanna deserve credit for Jon being named KitN?? Ugh, the bolded part...didn't Jon tell her the battle would have been lost if not for her and the Knights of the Vale? Hell, he called her the Lady of Winterfell and gave her the Lord's bedroom. What is the "everything" else that Sansa has done for Jon that requires acknowledgment?

OMG, what has Jon done to Sansa specifically that would cause him to be untrustworthy? As for the hints and bits of "conflict", "anger", and "jealousy" - yeah I picked up on that this episode and can totally see the show exploring that next season. If I were a Sansa fan, I'd be worried because that sounds like all of those feelings will be coming from Sansa. There's no way Jon is going to come out smelling like anything other than a blue rose.

THIS. All day long.

What is Sansa's problem when it comes to not trusting Jon, regularly having negative thoughts about him, and blaming him for things that he hasn't even done? Short of kissing her feet and begging her to take over, I don't know what exactly it is that she was expecting. He gave her the option and she didn't take it. Now he's the one who supposedly isn't appreciative? (For all her thoughts of Jon not being appreciative of her, there are certainly times where she doesn't appear to appreciate him.) Does she really expect Jon to tell the room that they should follow Sansa when she only just told Jon that she thinks it should be him? Does she want Jon to listen to her and take her at her word when she says something or not?

Goodness, this girl has frustrated me this season when it comes to her treatment of people who are on her side or potentially on her side.

My other concern is that Sansa will remember or bring up Catelyn's fears about Jon and use that to justify any continued suspicions that she has regarding whether or not he's trustworthy. I'd hate the thought of Sansa treating Jon with icy courtesy just because she couldn't admit to him in their conversation that she desperately wants to be QitN.

Littlefinger is probably going to laugh his ass off when he finds out what's going on in King's Landing. I can't decide how he can best work that situation to his advantage. Obviously he's smart enough to not want to book passage on Cersei's Titanic reign but I wonder if he'll head down to see what's up or if he's done teleporting to KL for the foreseeable future. 

Regarding where Cersei goes from here, I don't have any clue apart from a possible flight to Castery Rock eventually. What does she want? What's the point in taking over? She doesn't care about the people, she hates the city, she has no children to carry on the line, no heir, no goals, etc. What's the point? Why not just live in a nicer castle, build a vineyard, and rule the Westerlands?

I wonder if Jaime will try to talk her off of the ledge or if he already knows that it's too late. I wonder what Cersei expects of Jaime? Will he still be a member of the Kingsguard? 

[arjumand]

1 hour ago, Avaleigh said:

THIS. All day long.

What is Sansa's problem when it comes to not trusting Jon, regularly having negative thoughts about him, and blaming him for things that he hasn't even done? Short of kissing her feet and begging her to take over, I don't know what exactly it is that she was expecting. He gave her the option and she didn't take it. Now he's the one who supposedly isn't appreciative? (For all her thoughts of Jon not being appreciative of her, there are certainly times where she doesn't appear to appreciate him.) Does she really expect Jon to tell the room that they should follow Sansa when she only just told Jon that she thinks it should be him? Does she want Jon to listen to her and take her at her word when she says something or not?

Goodness, this girl has frustrated me this season when it comes to her treatment of people who are on her side or potentially on her side.

My other concern is that Sansa will remember or bring up Catelyn's fears about Jon and use that to justify any continued suspicions that she has regarding whether or not he's trustworthy. I'd hate the thought of Sansa treating Jon with icy courtesy just because she couldn't admit to him in their conversation that she desperately wants to be QitN.

 

Exactly (bolded part)! I must admit to being really oblivious then, because in the KitN scene I didn't get any 'Sansa is pissed off vibes', only that she was worried when she spotted Littlefinger greasily sleazing away in the corner. She now knows what he really wants (the Iron Throne + her as bonus) and she really doesn't want it, IMO.

Re. the behind the scenes actors' and showrunners' comments - eh. I'm taking all those with several handfuls of salt. I seem to remember being told for a year that Jon Snow was dead, the deadest, so very dead. Until he wasn't.

And the whole scene with LF was him telling her, if you think you'll be safe with your half-brother, think again - there's no way everyone will rally behind him. He never for a second suggests that she should rally them behind her, he just says that she can be Queen, sure, but by his side, not in her own right. Also, talking to Jon, when she says "Anyone who trusts LF is a fool" she was really talking about herself - she's the one who trusted LF, and he treated her like he treats all women: property to be bought and sold. So I don't see her ever trusting him again. Maybe she'll pretend to trust him, until he's fooled enough for her or Arya to stab him - he'd never see it coming.
 

Quote

 

Does she want Jon to listen to her and take her at her word when she says something or not?

 

Yes, if that scene was really meant to show Sansa's frustration at everyone declaring for Jon, then I'm annoyed too.

I'm going to choose to interpret it as the actors not being told the whole plan / interpreting their characters' actions through a contemporary viewpoint.

One last thing: if Sansa wanted them all to declare for her, why didn't she say that to Jon? He gave her every chance to say: "Thanks for everything, half-brother, I'll take it from here." Or why didn't she give the big speech instead of Lyanna Mormont? She was even more justified than Lyanna (who I love now, unconditionally) in chastising the Glovers, Manderleys and the Cerwyns for being Sers NotComingtotheBattle.

One last, last thing - people are speculating about what will happen if Jon's parentage is finally known by the lords in the North (I'm hoping for a long-lasting scroll hidden in Lyanna Stark's crypt at Winterfell), and how they'll react to having declared a half-Targaryen King in the North. Well, as we were told in the finale, the best alliances are made by marriage. And there's Ned's girl in Winterfell at last. So, she can be Queen in the North. Tee hee.

Edited June 27, 2016 by arjumand

[Umbelina]

I know that Littlefinger will probably die, and on the show, who knows how that will happen.  I think that Littlefinger and Tyrion are by far the smartest characters left alive on the show, maybe even the smartest we've seen.  Oleana and Margaery were pretty intelligent as well.  Dany, love her or hate her has a very real "LEADER/QUEEN" ability though, and she was getting there before the dragons were even born, so I don't think it's all because of them.  She's faced down quite a few obstacles, and frankly, her confidence and methods have at times left me breathless, because, no, I didn't expect them.  I'm talking mostly books right now, but honestly, I think the show, and the actress have capture that.

Meanwhile, I was thinking about Littlefinger, because I enjoy him because he is smart, and yes, ruthless, but I also admire how far he's come.  He's the definition of goal oriented, and has risen steadily from the smallest Lord in the country to a pretty good position, all through his own efforts, and yes, a bit of luck here and there along the way, mainly being fostered at the Tully's.  

So, does he know about Dany?  He will certainly soon learn what Cersei has done, and I feel like he could easily depose her should he choose to set his mind on that goal, and for a time at least, sit on the Iron Throne.  Now, if he were King, would that change things with Sansa, if indeed she is as discontent as the writers and actress have lead us to believe?  Anyway, whatever the right move is, given what he knows or doesn't know?  That's what I expect from him.

Sansa finally said the magic words "Winter is Here."  The thing I am most curious about is just how soon the rest of the country learns about the additional threat, along with mass starvation thanks to the leaders decimating the landscape, and with freezing to death (partially ditto blame there) there is also an army of Zombies coming to both kill and turn them into Zombies as well?  How fast will the word spread, and when will that happen?  That's the huge game changer all around...

EXCEPT, I think Sam and that library is going to yield even more answers than we've already been given there.  We now know how they were created, and why, and how to kill them, fire and dragon glass and Valerian steel.  Will Sam learn something even more important?

Lots of questions, and though I'm thrilled that we will be getting an ending, I'm less and less sure that it will resemble GRRM's very much at all, which is a bummer.  I wish he'd give the writers more, and let the story be told closer to the tale he might have somewhere in his mind.  Oh wait!  Fireflies!  I think I must write several chapters about Fireflies and the house they represent, even though it's been extinct for a thousand years, maybe a few escaped and are living somewhere cool, which I'll describe in great detail!  .....  So yeah, nah.

I do like Arya.  I hope her future entails more than being a stand in for Lady Stoneheart and cavorting around with the Brotherhood, although that would certainly bring he into contact with The Hound in a rather confrontational way, so it may happen.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Umbelina

[OhOkayWhat]

I think we should be careful with the things actors say because they do not have the scripts yet. In fact, if you see their clothes, in the behind of scenes videos, I suspect they were interviewed long ago, while filming. The showrunners, talking about Sansa use the words: "little bit" (of anger and jealousy), if I am not wrong. It is important they use those words, because it means they both support each other, they love each other, they are family. The "little bit" part is the narrative tool the writers will use to add drama.

I think it will not be a clear Jon vs. Sansa , I think it will be  more like Jon and Littlefinger fighting for Sansa soul. I agree that Petyr will try to amplify that little jealousy and anger to make them fight, and Jon will try to help her, but being kind of oblivious of Petyr machinations, because he is not used to that kind of problems. It will be the North drama until the Wall falls at the end of the next season, also it provides the writers a reason to keep Littlefinger as a character in the story. But I think, at the end of season we will have all the surviving Stark together helping each other.

Now it also means it is possible the Hound and the BWB will not be in the North until the last episodes of next season. The reason is very simple: it makes sense within the narrative. I will explain myself: the main character in the North are Jon, Sansa, and in some way, only because he will try to manipulate both, Petyr. I also think that the showrunners are trying to work some Jon-Sansa-Littlefinger drama. And Sandor is a character that possibly will go North. He also knows the truth about Ned and Petyr (Varys knows it too, I think).

Sandor says the things directly and he does not like things like machinations or manipulations. So, what will happen if he see Littlefinger in Winterfell playing with Jon and Sansa with his little mind games? he will tell Sansa (and maybe Jon too) that Petyr betrayed Ned. And I think at that very moment the whole North drama could end. Problem between the siblings? anger, jealousy? who should rule the North?...all those issues will be put behind them to deal with Petyr first. And with that most of the drama will end. Okay, maybe Sansa finds about it and keep it as a secret, but I think maybe that is too much to hide from Jon.

Also if Sandor and Arya reunite in the Riverlands (the showrunners gave A LOT of importance to Sandor-Arya relationship, in fact, he cares about her more than about anyone else) Arya then, perhaps, will know that info, and she will tell Jon and Sansa. Another detail: Arya remembers Littlefinger visiting Tywin Lannister too. It also will give Arya time to start dealing with her own huge darkness problem within her, and I hope, with the help of Sandor.

Therefore, I think the Riverlands characters will arrive Winterfell in the last episodes of the next season.

Edited June 27, 2016 by OhOkayWhat

[CofCinci]

4 hours ago, Minneapple said:

If that's what they were going for in that scene, I completely misinterpreted it. I saw Sansa smiling when the lords all declared for Jon, then looking worried when she looked at Littlefinger. Worried like, I know what he can do, I know how devious he is. She already said anyone would be a fool to trust Littlefinger. Plus I saw zero resentment from Sansa toward Jon in this episode. She told him he should have her parents' room. She told him he's a Stark. She told Littlefinger that everything she believed when she was a child (including that Jon wasn't important because he was a bastard) turned out to be a lie.

I hate Littlefinger, I hate how he takes Sansa's agency away. And plus he's so fucking slimy. *Shudders* The sooner he dies (and hopefully by Sansa's hand), the better.

We share the same interpretation.  Sansa was happy that Jon is KITN, but then it turned to dread when she realized that Jon is in the middle of LF's crosshairs.  She knows first-hand what LF is capable of when it comes to getting what he wants.  Jon is in the way of LF's goal.

[OhOkayWhat]

24 minutes ago, CofCinci said:

 Sansa was happy that Jon is KITN...

Yes, I saw that too. She was really happy. And she does not trust Petyr. But I think there is a little bit of anger and jealousy inside her that Littlefinger will try to use against Jon. But that is to add drama, because she really loves her family and that love will prevail and Petyr will fail.

[Edith]

26 minutes ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Yes, I saw that too. She was really happy. And she does not trust Petyr. But I think there is a little bit of anger and jealousy inside her that Littlefinger will try to use against Jon. But that is to add drama, because she really loves her family and that love will prevail and Petyr will fail.

Agree! She's still smiling when the camera focus on Jon and then on her! Is only after she sees Littefinger that her face changes.

Littlefinger is definitely dying next season, after a little bit of drama of course! But the maiden with the purple snakes in her hair is happening next season...

[SeanC]

4 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

Well, doesn't Baby Bear Lyanna deserve credit for Jon being named KitN?? Ugh, the bolded part...didn't Jon tell her the battle would have been lost if not for her and the Knights of the Vale? Hell, he called her the Lady of Winterfell and gave her the Lord's bedroom. What is the "everything" else that Sansa has done for Jon that requires acknowledgment? 

I think (and this is me looking at what the show wants you to think) that the issue is that in the big public assembly, all the credit is piled on (by others) Jon and he accepts it without acknowledging her.

1 hour ago, OhOkayWhat said:

Now it also means it is possible the Hound and the BWB will not be in the North until the last episodes of next season.

Yeah, I was thinking about that as well.

It also makes me wonder about Bran, because you'd think a prophet-seer brother whose claim also trumps Sansa's under normal rules would be a bit of a wrench in any familial drama.