S06.E07: The Broken Man

[Tikichick]

39 minutes ago, benteen said:

Another thing to point out is the manner of death for Karstark's son(s).  On the show, both his sons are cut down by Jaime on the battlefield.  Karstark is understandable upset with that but it was done on the field of battle, which is more "acceptable".  On the show, Jaime killed Karstark's son during an escape attempt by strangling him with his chain.  Basically a dishonorable murder.  So D&D changed it to justify Karstark's anger at Jaime even more.

Robb's reason for marrying in the books were stupid but at least in the books he was trying to do the honorable thing.  On the show, he deliberately broke his marriage vow to the Freys in a childish, stupid and selfish manner.

As much as I hate these changes to the story, D&D have created a scenario where you can understand the resentment to the Starks by the Northern houses.

I never really considered the cumulative effects of all of those screen adaptations before, but it absolutely does shift the balance immeasurably, so much so that it seems a very intentional choice.  Makes me wonder what the purpose is, and hope like heck it was that purposeful and will be positive for the screen version in the end.

[Advance35]

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Sansa, Sansa Sansa. Such a controversial character but she's easily my favorite Stark. I've loved her since Blackwater when she told Tyrion she'd be praying for his death and then she proceeded to sass Joffrey. I even loved when she sassed Ramsey last season. My biggest problem with her storyline this season is that the writers are trying to shoehorn her into a girl power narrative that she doesn't have to be in. There's no way in hell: a) they should show her advising Davos on anything war related, b) Former lord commander Snow should be deferring to her.  On the other hand, her smacking down Jon when he threatened to get too whiny was awesome.

For Sansa it's just a matter of finding that sweet spot where she can snark but at the same time that she doesn't come off too pretentious.

I don't think Jon defers to her at all.  I think he listens to her out of courtesy, ala her being unimpressed with Davos Seaworth but when it comes down to it, Davos kept Jon alive so he's staying in their inner-circle.   Jon thinks their best bet is to fight with the army they have as opposed to continuing on castle to castle for reinforcements so they are marching to Winterfell.  I'd say Sansa is now with people that won't hurt her and wont marry her to anyone against her will, but she's not in possession of any power either.    It's probably a comfort to her that SHE sent Brienne to the Riverlands for potential House Tully reinforcements and however undesirable, Petyr Baelish is another option she feels she has.  I wasn't at all surprised she kept these options to herself as I think one of Sansa's goals is to make sure she's never a prisoner or truly trapped again (we'll see where she's ultimately heading).

The other Stark Kids have spent the last few years with all kinds of people, Jon (Sam, Grenn and Pyp), Bran (The Reeds and Hodar), Arya (Gendry, Hotpie, Super Assassins), Rickon (Wilding Osha).  I think Sansa is the only one that has stayed for the most part, within the confines of High Society.  No religious zealots, noble bastards or "small folk" that ended up surprising her.   Lannisters, Tyrells, Courtiers of Kings Landing and I think she has their mentality in regards to those who are not of Great Houses.   She's not malicious like the others and I don't think she would cavalierly throw away the lives of others the way we've seen The Lannisters, Tyrells, Martells and Arynns will BUT at the same time I think she has that kind of self-aggrandizing mentality.

[Tryangle]

16 hours ago, paigow said:

Unless one of them finds a wormhole or transporter pad, they won't get within spitting distance of each other this season....

Littlefinger's high-speed Railways can 'solve' that particular conundrum...

20 hours ago, The Mighty Peanut said:

I think Margie could get some birth control if she put her mind to it. Some herbs from a ladylike gardening session and a seemingly innocuous tincture for headaches from a healer, a carefully placed package from a bribed handmaiden, and viola, medieval morning after pill.

I would wager that the Sparrow has a bigger spy network than the Tyrells do at this time. And of course, Qyburn has adopted some little birds of his own.  Margaery wouldn't be able to hide that secret for long.

6 hours ago, Sarnia said:

Is it the first time that there has been some action before the opening credits?

Last time I recall was Tywin having Ned's sword reforged at the start of S4.

[Conan Troutman]

On 6/6/2016 at 8:42 PM, stillshimpy said:

 

That might also explain where she got all that darned money.  That's what really caught my husband's attention in the opening scenes with Arya.  Since when does she have bags of gold at her disposal?  

Well, she took the money from the Hound back in the season 4 finale. Maybe she still has it? She didn't use it to pay for the travel (just showing the iron coin seemed to suffice) and they didn't show her getting rid of it, either. So maybe she just stashed it away along with Needle?

As far the whole "is Jaqen/someone else disguising as Arya?", I agree that it could work via some sort of glamor spell. The Waif magically transformed into the far taller "Jaqen" at the end of last season, so it's not just the face. Another possibility would be Lady Crane (who owes Arya) or the actress who wanted to kill her (to avoid being punished). All of that would usually be too much tinfoil for my taste, but otherwise Arya's behavior would seem rather moronic. I guess we'll find out soon. 

[proserpina65]

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These houses are Stark loyalists. These people got fired up when Ned was killed, yet don't want to fight the house that stabbed his son? That hold his other son captive? Just because they cleaned out some Greyjoys? 

I wonder, do some or all of these houses know about Roose being at the Red Wedding?  Obviously he got Winterfell and was named Warden of the North, so his cozying up to the Lannisters can't be completely secret, but are they aware of the true depths of his betrayal or do they just think the Lannister alliance is post-RW thing?

[Unknown poster]

34 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I wonder, do some or all of these houses know about Roose being at the Red Wedding?  Obviously he got Winterfell and was named Warden of the North, so his cozying up to the Lannisters can't be completely secret, but are they aware of the true depths of his betrayal or do they just think the Lannister alliance is post-RW thing?

I guess I don't get the sense that any of the Northern lords, besides Karstark, are particularly fond of the Boltons. Rather, they know that the Boltons are a powerful family who make very dangerous enemies. So When the dregs of house Stark show up, and ask them to join what appears to be a lost cause, not to mention side with the wildlings, with whom they have been warring for thousands of years, they aren't exactly falling all over themselves to sign up.

[proserpina65]

13 minutes ago, Unknown poster said:

I guess I don't get the sense that any of the Northern lords, besides Karstark, are particularly fond of the Boltons. Rather, they know that the Boltons are a powerful family who make very dangerous enemies. So When the dregs of house Stark show up, and ask them to join what appears to be a lost cause, not to mention side with the wildlings, with whom they have been warring for thousands of years, they aren't exactly falling all over themselves to sign up.

That certainly makes sense.

[WearyTraveler]

Well, Arya and the Hound escaped the Red Wedding, so, it stands to reason that at least some of the  Northern soldiers that were outside The Twins when the RW went down also escaped the massacre and lived to tell the tale to their new Lords / castellans back home.  Also, I think Roose wouldn't have a problem with people knowing what he did.  It sort of sends the same message Tywin sent his vassals when he wiped out the Reynes of Castamere: "mess with me and you are fucked!".

[Cherpumple]

Speaking of the Red Wedding, how messed up was it that the Frey dude accused Blackfish of "running and hiding like a fucking coward" instead of being mercilessly slaughtered at the Red Wedding like all the other guests. Yeah, how rude and dishonorable of him to not let himself be murdered. Dude needs to work on his trash talk.

[trif]

41 minutes ago, Cherpumple said:

Speaking of the Red Wedding, how messed up was it that the Frey dude accused Blackfish of "running and hiding like a fucking coward" instead of being mercilessly slaughtered at the Red Wedding like all the other guests. Yeah, how rude and dishonorable of him to not let himself be murdered. Dude needs to work on his trash talk.

Oh man. I wanted to hit him, but at the same time I loved the comment because it seemed very Frey like. Whiny, delusionally self-absorbed, and always, so damn put upon.

[RedheadZombie]

On ‎6‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 1:41 PM, InsertWordHere said:

"I wonder if you're the worst person I've ever met. At a certain age, it's hard to recall. But the truly vile do stand out through the years "

Awesome line and awesome delivery with the added bonus that it's being said by a character who has certainly seen some horrible people in her time. Olenna knew Joffrey and his vileness is part of the reason she arranged his death. She worked with Littlefinger. She's at least aware of the Mountain. She presumably knew Aerys II and probably has met Walder Frey too since they're both very old. I don't know if she's ever had occasion to meet Roose or Euron (who hasn't really been revealed on the show to be as horrible as he is in the books). She most likely has never met Ramsay and I hope for her sake it stays that way.

For her to say Cersei might be the worst person she's ever met carries some major weight, even if it's not strictly true.

I had a bit of a hard time when Olenna said that.  I thought - she's actually saying that to the woman whose child she murdered.  And it was a pre-meditated murder at that.  And she set up Sansa, who would have been put to death for sure.  And I could perfectly accept the whole thing if Margaery were already married, and Joffrey then abused her.  But they knew all this before the marriage, Margaery was not forced to marry him, and the entire thing could have been called off.  Now I'm not sad that Joffrey was killed, but he wasn't the only victim.  Olenna would have remained silent while Tyrion was banished to the wall for life, or when he was put to death.   And if you go back and watch the scene, Sansa was so touched by Olenna giving her attention and stroking her hair while she was extracting the poison.  And to think, she was actually setting Sansa up.  There's such a coldness to the woman, starting when she stole her sister's fiancé.  Then she most likely spent the man's life telling him how stupid he was - much like how she treats her son, and speaks of her grandson. 

And I still like her.  I just think she was being a huge hypocrite in that moment.

[Constantinople]

Speaking of the Red Wedding, the episode in which it takes place is equidistant between the pilot and this episode.

[Gertrude]

Well, being an awful person herself, Olenna knows one when she sees one. Yeah, it's hypocritical, but Olenna is also not wrong and it didn't lessen my enjoyment of that take down one bit.

[gwhh]

Let's quit hating on Sansa stark. She was raised to be a lady. Not a warrior or diplomatic. All this way and talking new to her. 

If she had any real world sense she would have killed little finger on the spot.  

Edited June 9, 2016 by gwhh

[Oscirus]

I don't fault QOT for being a hypocrite. Pretty much everybody on the show's a hypocrite of some sort. But I do find her contantly poking Cersei  very short sighted. She should know how dangerous  an angry Cersei is by now.

[Advance35]

Well I think courtly manners ended between Cersei and the Tyrells when Loras was imprisoned.  I'll be interested in seeing how Cersei and Margaery next interact when they have a scene together.   In the past it's been backhanded insults and catty swipes (Cersei was very much outmatched when it came to the nice-nasty interactions) I don't think that's how it would be now.   Olenna has been openly hostile since last season and I'm certain Margaery will as well.  

I think it was very telling that Olenna wanted Margaery to return to Highgarden.  Methinks House Tyrell will be scheming to sever the alliance between Houses Lannister and Tyrell anyway they have too.     I don't think they see Tommen as a valuable pawn anymore, they can control him but so can everyone and anyone else.   They still have a large army and THEIR House isn't bankrupt and in debt to the Iron Bank.   I think Olenna is still in disbelief over how everything has worked out.   She thought she eliminated the Lannister that would be most dangerous (Joffrey) and that led to the death and banishment of the only Lannisters strong enough and smart enough to control the other loose cannon (Tywin and Tyrion and their ability to out-maneuver Cersei 7 times out of 10).   One could say Olenna kicked over the first domino of destroying House Lannister, the only problem is, House Lannister is taking House Tyrell with it.

[benteen]

Cersei really does have a reason to distrust the Tyrells but she doesn't know that and it's pettiness that makes her mistrust them.

[stillshimpy]

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Let's quit hating on Sansa stark. She was raised to be a lady. Not a warrior or diplomatic. All this way and talking new to her. 

If she had any real world sense she would have killed little finger on the spot.  

 

In a weird way, I think Sansa is actually George Martin's most successful and resonant characterization in the series.  Something about her character just seems to spark a nearly visceral reaction in many.  Something about her character has access to real-world equivalents in a way that very few of the other characters seem to.  I noticed the same thing with Mary from Downton Abbey and Betty from Mad Men.  There is something about the beautiful, privileged woman or young woman that just seems to resonate with viewers and readers in a way that has a life that seems entirely detached from the screen and the page. 

It's not the stuff of reason to think that Sansa should have been nicer to a man she was forced to marry.  That's tied into weird societal standards about how women owe men something just for not abusing them terribly.  Sincerely, if you think that, there's an element of societal programming present in that reaction.  As there is in expecting more from a beautiful woman in terms of demeanor than from her plainer equivalent.  

 

One thing that was sort of awesome in this episode was the writing leaned fully into that exact emotional response system.  We know it's a bullshit standard -- judging a person's worth and expectations of her character and morality based on how attractive she is deemed to be by the world she lives in -- and when Sansa does it: tells Tiny Fierce, Lady Mormont that she is certain LM will grow up to be a great beauty, it ticks people off to hear.  Rightly so.  It's an asinine way to judge the worth of a human being as it pertains to their place in a world.  

But Sansa is only repeating what she learned growing up. It's even what she has learned recently.  Ramsay left her face alone.   She isn't some monster because she learned what she was taught and then parrots it out.  Sansa has not had Lady Gloria Steinem leading the way, demonstrating that feminism isn't just for women who are outside of that tiny, rigid definition of beauty.  She doesn't have an example.  Yes, Arya rejects those standards, but in the books she wishes she could do the things Sansa does.

Sansa seems to represent all the stuff that just ticks people off or wakes up their protective instincts.  For every girl who ever thought being a princess sounded cool (hell, I did when I was a kid) or stuck pillowcase on our heads to pretend we were getting married, she resonates in that form of recognition.  Or for anyone who has compassion for how incredibly difficult that crap is to escape, because again, dude the entire world lines up to tell girls that that is a freaking accomplishment in and of itself: validation through being someone else's choice, it's fairly horrible but most of us have been on the receiving end of it; Sansa as a character touches that nerve that isn't so raw but rather reminiscent.   But I think she also reminds people of the super pretty, popular, cheerleader type in high school.  Or any number of people that this same standard encourages women to resent.  

Again, I was sort of impressed that the writing in this episode so openly and nakedly invited "Hey, go ahead and have that reaction, you're going to anyway so....here you go, let the subtext be text!" and there's Sansa telling a kid, in these sort of icky, condescending tones, about how she'll be so pretty ....and to Sansa it's the same damned thing as telling her she will be great and admirable.   Then mirroring our own -- hopefully growing -- real-world irritation with that reductive bullshit, Lady Mormont shoots her the fuck down in less than a fucking sentence. 

It really isn't the often that you get to doff a cap in acknowledgement of deft writing on this TV series but....damn.   Hats off to you on that one, show.   

Sansa Stark's character has always seemed to be the recipient of anger about issues not contained within the story and the writers here went ahead and just put it on the screen. 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2016 by stillshimpy
trying to tame the rampant quote boxes

[lmsweb]

But that's just it - you're saying Sansa is spouting off what she learned growing up. She's spouting off what she learned from years ago before leaving Winterfell. Since then she's seen the machinations of REAL court life with the Lannisters. After all she's been through, do you think SHE would be simpering and blushing if Lady Mormont told her what a great beauty she is? 
Her pulling that with Lady Mormont felt like she was talking down to a child or small dog "WHO'S a pwetty girl? Are you a pwetty girl? Yes you are! You're a pretty girl!". It came off as condescending and made her seem focused on useless, trivial, court niceties which she of all people should know at this point is a bullshit illusion.

[Skeeter22]

It's ironic that Lyanna Mormont was portrayed as this tiny badass who schooled Sansa, when of the two of them, Sansa has experienced true horror and hardship. Lyanna's mother was killed, but she has been safe at home, surrounded by advisors who care for her. When I saw Lyanna at their camp, I rolled my eyes. What's going to happen to her if the Starks lose? Would she be such a badass as Ramsay's prisoner? Her being at that camp seems foolhardy to me. 

 

I don't blame Sansa for criticizing their camp location. It's where Ramsay's Twenty Good Men raided Stannis and crippled his army. She's right that they don't have enough men. It's her neck on the line as much as Jon's. What happens to her when he and his men get slaughtered?

[Alapaki]

24 minutes ago, Skeeter22 said:

It's ironic that Lyanna Mormont was portrayed as this tiny badass who schooled Sansa, when of the two of them, Sansa has experienced true horror and hardship. Lyanna's mother was killed, but she has been safe at home, surrounded by advisors who care for her. When I saw Lyanna at their camp, I rolled my eyes. What's going to happen to her if the Starks lose? Would she be such a badass as Ramsay's prisoner? Her being at that camp seems foolhardy to me. 

It was Sansa who should've been making the argument that Davos made.  She was the one who could've related to Lyanna as a fellow daughter of a House who finds herself thrown in the shit by the actions of a bunch of old men.

Instead, Sansa decided to go with the "well now aren't you a cutie-patootie!" sales pitch.

[Oscirus]

The funny thing is that Sansa didn't even really compliment her.

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"You're named for my aunt Lyanna. They said she was a great beauty and I'm sure you will be too."

It would've been funny if Lyanna would've went, ":I'm not beautiful now?" :'(

[stillshimpy]

I think saying she would grow up to be beautiful was simply respecting the fact that she's a child.  

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 It came off as condescending and made her seem focused on useless, trivial, court niceties which she of all people should know at this point is a bullshit illusion.

I actually did say it was condescending, but here's the thing: People only live their own reality.  Sansa doesn't realize the world has changed and in fact, it hasn't in many quarters.  She knows that her looks have done little other than make her a target of male attention, that turns out to have been a very negative thing, but she also knows all men are not Joffrey or Ramsay.  She's talking to Lady Mormont as she would a child, not understanding that Lady Mormont isn't still at some stage in her development where she prizes fairy tales.  

There's no reason to know that Lady Mormont is some preternaturally composed 9 year old until she opens up her mouth and proves that to be the case.  

Sansa is being polite in the ways she was taught.  Think about when she met Cersei at the banquet for the Queen, what was Cersei's first remark?   

Sure, it's a gross standard, but again, it's logical that Sansa would employ what she learned as a courteous manner of address.  She's changed, but she has no reason to know that Lady Mormont never was someone trying to sew a tiny, even stitch to earn a Septa's approval. 

Again, Sansa just seems to spark emotional reactions in people.  She mirrors too many real-world things.  Sansa's character gets under people's skin in away that's really interesting.  Is there really anyone here who would think to address a nine-year-old girl in the manner Lady Mormont needed to be addressed?  Lady Mormont is unusual for her world. 

Jon was standing there getting equally minced and disposed with by this particular child.  He didn't hit the right notes either.  Davos steps forward and does, but only after seeing both Sansa and Jon faceplant spectacularly, so he at he at least had a heads up: This is not your standard child.  Sansa really didn't as she was actually the first to speak.  

Edited June 9, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Oscirus]

That was just a joke gone bad on my part.

 

 

Davos has dealt with Shireen for most of his life so he knows how to deal with Lyanna.

I think most people's problem with Sansa in that situation is that the situation dictated that Lyanna be treated like a leader not some child that you throw a compliment to in a social setting. In this case, both Jon and Sansa would've done well to read the room before speaking.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Oscirus
Removed unnecessary quote

[stillshimpy]

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I think most people's problem with Sansa in that situation is that the situation dictated that Lyanna be treated like a leader not some child that you throw a compliment to in a social setting. In this case, both Jon and Sansa would've done well to read the room before speaking.

This time last season Sansa was being held captive by her husband, Sir Flays Alot where she was brutalized, raped and degraded regularly.  

Here she fucked up socially.  That's not really surprising.  Sansa does well to be able to string full sentences together.  In the book, her counterpart, Jeyne Poole is -- again I'm am in no way saying this is anything other than understandable -- nearly rendered incapable of intelligent speech after her stay with Ramsay.  In the TV series, Sansa is meant to be 15 years old.  She has been held captive, beaten, stripped, beaten some more, given to a man so savage he mutilates people for fun.  

At all times she is doing well not to be huddled in a corner, chewing her hair and talking to her toes nonstop.   Jon has only been slightly luckier in his character trajectory and he has been actually killed by his own men. 

Edited June 9, 2016 by stillshimpy

[paigow]

59 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

The funny thing is that Sansa didn't even really compliment her.

It would've been funny if Lyanna would've went, ":I'm not beautiful now?" :'(

Sansa: Well this light isn't doing you any favours...and your hair...needs...work

[benteen]

Given what Jon knows about the Mormont's and Lyanna, he probably should have told Sansa that flattery wasn't going to appeal to her.

[Hecate7]

3 hours ago, Oscirus said:

The funny thing is that Sansa didn't even really compliment her.

It would've been funny if Lyanna would've went, ":I'm not beautiful now?" :'(

No, that's what people said to little girls back then. Only an adult woman could be a "great beauty." Little girls could be pretty, but they could only "show promise of" great beauty. That was the convention.

Sansa's opening with "your mother was a great beauty" wasn't just simpering and it wasn't inappropriate at all. It showed that she knew she was talking to a Lady, and it showed respect for Lyanna's deceased mother. That Lyanna got to shoot her down and sound smarter and tougher was icing on the cake. It wouldn't do at all to skip those niceties just because it's the north and Lyanna isn't a pretty pretty princess. The flattery might not have appealed, but getting to lay the smackdown like that actually was fun for Lyanna and probably helped a lot. Sometimes you gotta get shot down. It worked. They got her to talk and listen.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Hecate7

[WebosFritos]

I guess what bothered me more about the North’s reaction was that in this same episode we saw the Tullys and the riverlands rise up against the Freys, the Lannisters and the crown. They were at the Red Wedding, they lost a lot of men, their liege lord has been held captive for who knows how long and their lands have been ravaged by war and yet they are still resisting, for now. The North has also lost a lot of men but the Boltons don’t appear to have any hostages (except Rickon but "the Starks are dead"), the ironborn are mostly gone, and presumably the wildings haven’t been attacking their lands lately so why aren’t they more pissed off about the Boltons, the Freys and the Lannisters?

On 07/06/2016 at 6:32 PM, Oscirus said:

If people believe the part of the pitch where they state the white walker threat is real , then the next question should be about why Jon left the one organization that is meant to protect them from that sort of thing.
 

If Sansa hadn't arrived and stopped him, he would've been out the door.  What he's doing might benefit the seven kingdoms, but that sure as hell ain't why he's doing it. If that was the case,, he wouldn't have needed the pink letter to spring him into action.

Honestlly, I don't think they will believe the threat is real until the White Walkers are knocking on their doors. But if they believe him, Jon only needs to explain that there was no chance in hell the Watch, in its current state, was going to stop anyone from crossing the Wall. They needed men and sending ravens didn't get them any help. I think Jon freaking out a bit about what happened to him and being hesitant about attacking an army double their size is understandable but I don't think he's marching to Winterfell just for Rickon anymore. At the very least, as he told the wildlings, he's doing it to help them too and they have promised to fight against the White Walkers.

3 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

This time last season Sansa was being held captive by her husband, Sir Flays Alot where she was brutalized, raped and degraded regularly.  

Here she fucked up socially.  That's not really surprising.  Sansa does well to be able to string full sentences together.  In the book, her counterpart, Jeyne Poole is -- again I'm am in no way saying this is anything other than understandable -- nearly rendered incapable of intelligent speech after her stay with Ramsay.  In the TV series, Sansa is meant to be 15 years old.  She has been held captive, beaten, stripped, beaten some more, given to a man so savage he mutilates people for fun.  

At all times she is doing well not to be huddled in a corner, chewing her hair and talking to her toes nonstop.   Jon has only been slightly luckier in his character trajectory and he has been actually killed by his own men. 

Yes, after what Sansa and Jon have been through it's a miracle they're still standing up.

[Shanna Marie]

The issue with Sansa vs. Lady Mormont is similar to comparisons between her and Arya, and it's that old "not like other girls" trope, where a girl who demonstrates stereotypically masculine characteristics is shown to be superior to more girly girls. Yes, you have "strong female characters" who can sass and fight and generally be badass, but they're shown in contrast to ordinary girls who like silly girly stuff like sewing and music and who want love, marriage, and babies, which sends the message that the best women are more like men and there's something wrong with being feminine. They seemed to be heading in a direction of Sansa using her "girly" traits for power (and that may be where the books are going), but then in this encounter in this episode, it felt like we were right back at "Lady Mormont is awesome because she's such a badass and Sansa is a lame girly girl." I liked Lyanna, and I like the idea that there are other ways to compliment and flatter a girl than talking about her looks, but I hate that they showed that by making Sansa look foolish. Why couldn't it have been one of the men who made that misstep? Maybe not Davos, but Jon Snow, as we've been told, knows nothing. Someone as clueless about women as he is might have made that error.

[paigow]

58 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Why couldn't it have been one of the men who made that misstep? Maybe not Davos, but Jon Snow, as we've been told, knows nothing. Someone as clueless about women as he is might have made that error.

No man could say that and not be labelled a pervert - even in Westeros! Known [and implied] pedophiles like Trant [Karstark] are regarded as deviants.

[Macbeth]

8 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Sansa is being polite in the ways she was taught.  Think about when she met Cersei at the banquet for the Queen, what was Cersei's first remark?   

Exactly Stillshimpy.  Cersei called her a beauty.  She also complimented Sansa on her dressmaking skills - "Such talent."  And believe me there was no talent in her dressmaking a that point - her dress was coming apart at the seams, but it was a social nicety.  Sansa was only trying to break the ice.  I don't understand what all this kerfuffle is about.

I also sympathize with Sansa's freakout about the lack of men in Jon's army.  She saw Stannis's army get surrounded and slaughtered.  What the hell is Jon thinking about.  Or Davos actually.  Even if the mercenaries abandoned Winterfell - another Northerner killed another child - Ramsay still has support from the Umbers and the Karstacks.

[stillshimpy]

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 I liked Lyanna, and I like the idea that there are other ways to compliment and flatter a girl than talking about her looks, but I hate that they showed that by making Sansa look foolish.

Right? Equality and feminism are about having all choices available to women.  Not judging certain choices as inferior.  

That's where the trope of the rule-breaking badass girl tends to go wrong.  

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I guess what bothered me more about the North’s reaction was that in this same episode we saw the Tullys and the riverlands rise up against the Freys, the Lannisters and the crown. They were at the Red Wedding, they lost a lot of men, their liege lord has been held captive for who knows how long and their lands have been ravaged by war and yet they are still resisting, for now. The North has also lost a lot of men but the Boltons don’t appear to have any hostages (except Rickon but "the Starks are dead"), the ironborn are mostly gone, and presumably the wildings haven’t been attacking their lands lately so why aren’t they more pissed off about the Boltons, the Freys and the Lannisters?

 

Yeah, the fact that the North isn't portrayed as trying to kill Bolton and the Freys pretty much 24/7 baffles me.  Robb Stark's marital choices aside, Bolton slaughtered soldiers in an incredibly cowardly fashion and through an act of duplicity.  Bran watched Howland Reed stab Arthur Dayne in the back of the head to save his father's life and was just shocked (admittedly, he's a child) because that just doesn't fit with the rules as he understands them. 

Murdering scores of men by dropping flaming tents on them as they feasted with allies shouldn't be a matter of "Oh well, we didn't like his wife either, so...bygones on the wholesale slaughter and deceit!"  at the very, very least there ought to be attempts on their lives.  Instead it fell to Ramsay to kill Roose?  

Forget everything else, it doens't make sense that people aren't sending wine merchants, sausage makers and every other manner of "get on in there and kill the tar out of that, will you?"  assassin.   When the complaint against Robb boils down to "He broke his word!" it just doesn't make sense that the North says "So we'll take this open liar and savage without complaint" ....even if they have no interest in backing the Starks, they should have a helluva an interest in ending Bolton. 

Edited June 10, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Oscirus]

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Here she fucked up socially.  That's not really surprising.  Sansa does well to be able to string full sentences together.  In the book, her counterpart, Jeyne Poole is -- again I'm am in no way saying this is anything other than understandable -- nearly rendered incapable of intelligent speech after her stay with Ramsay.  In the TV series, Sansa is meant to be 15 years old.  She has been held captive, beaten, stripped, beaten some more, given to a man so savage he mutilates people for fun.  

At all times she is doing well not to be huddled in a corner, chewing her hair and talking to her toes nonstop.   Jon has only been slightly luckier in his character trajectory and he has been actually killed by his own men. 

 

We can't really treat this like real life. They're literary characters and therefore subject to the rules of all created characters.  If this was a constant thing with their suffering PTSD then that would be one thing but since the writers choose to not have them exhibit these signs I'd have to assume that wasn't the case here.

 

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Sansa's opening with "your mother was a great beauty"

Minor nitpick she said Lyanna was a great beauty.

 

8 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

The issue with Sansa vs. Lady Mormont is similar to comparisons between her and Arya, and it's that old "not like other girls" trope, where a girl who demonstrates stereotypically masculine characteristics is shown to be superior to more girly girls.

I'd argue the issue lies more in how they were raised.  Lady Mormont was raised to be a ruler while Sansa was raised to be a wife.  So naturally the audience gravitates towards Mormont  because with today's values, it's easier for the audience to identify with Mormont.

 

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Forget everything else, it doens't make sense that people aren't sending wine merchants, sausage makers and every other manner of "get on in there and kill the tar out of that, will you?"  assassin.  

Do you really want to be the one caught targeting known flayers. What happens if your assassin misses?

Even if we argue the old generation had plenty of reasons to be loyal to the starks, for the most part, this is a new generation. New generation, different values. 

[lmsweb]

5 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Minor nitpick she said Lyanna was a great beauty.

I went back to watch and this was the actual exchange:

Sansa: I remember when you were born, my Lady. You were named for my Aunt Lyanna.It's said she was a great beauty, I'm sure you will be too.

Lyanna: I doubt it. My mother wasn't a great beauty, or any other kind of beauty. She was a great warrior though. She died fighting for your brother Robb.

**mic drop, cue flustered looking Sansa**

[stillshimpy]

Quote

We can't really treat this like real life. They're literary characters and therefore subject to the rules of all created characters.  If this was a constant thing with their suffering PTSD then that would be one thing but since the writers choose to not have them exhibit these signs I'd have to assume that wasn't the case here.

They both do display signs of PTSD though and the impact of their trauma.  Even being unable to gauge the situation is a sign of that, but that aside for a moment.  Jon left the Night's Watch.  He was going to do so with or without Sansa showing up at the gate.  When Brienne found Sansa in the woods and rescued her, she couldn't even remember the words to accept an oath of service.  

There are signs and there is an impact on the character.  Even Sansa writing to Littlefinger is part of that cycle.  How can she really trust anyone fully?  I think she wants to trust Jon, but he didn't do any better in that meeting with Lady Mormont and don't forget: Davos was a smuggler.  He was in the service the social-skills-free Stannis.  How exactly did he best both Jon and Sansa in being able to accurately gauge a situation and say the needed words?  They were  both raised by the Warden of the North, but they were very much going by rote skills.  In Sansa's case, pretty much literally because she was parroting the correct words from a time before her trauma. 

So for one thing, sure the story treats trauma as if it carries forward and defines characters from that point onward:  Witness  Arya. The Hound.  Cersie.  Loras.  Lancel.  Theon who in this same episode was called out in the dialogue for the need to try and move past his trauma. 

The story and the series are treating trauma as if it has a lasting impact, so I don't see any reason to suspend that for either Sansa or Jon. 

Jon is better than that normally, but he is recently returned from the dead.  Both seem to be falling back on what they knew to work in the past, struggling for balance in this, the fairly hideous new world.  Both have had everything they understood about the rules of their world upended and both are supposed to be teenagers.  Hell, Sansa was employing a tactic that has previously worked for her in speaking the lines she knows she is supposed to "I am loyal to my beloved Joffrey." 

Edited June 10, 2016 by stillshimpy

[GrailKing]

6 hours ago, Oscirus said:

We can't really treat this like real life. They're literary characters and therefore subject to the rules of all created characters.  If this was a constant thing with their suffering PTSD then that would be one thing but since the writers choose to not have them exhibit these signs I'd have to assume that wasn't the case here.

<snip>

 

Except they (writers) are adding PTSD episodes in each of them, Sansa's shades of lacking trust in people and Jon's fear of doing something that can get them killed, or wanting to hide from acts he had to do as LC are all signs of PTSD, along with other signs that may not come out yet.

Sansa's act of lying to Jon is also a part of PTSD, more grounded in the fact of what she suffered from KL to Winterfell: beaten by her betrothed who had her father beheaded in front of her directly. Knowing a man is a creeper and murdered not only the King, but also her Aunt and at the same time in a way that it can come back on her .

Then she is manipulated to get her home back from a traitorous family led by the same man who killed her Brother and Mother; and she is face to face with a "brother" who stole her home and "killed her Brothers" all designed by same said creeper who unknown to Sansa is the reason her father is dead.

And then he mind f@#^&! her with the half brother line, where Sansa's thoughts of who wronged her; have to be in her head at least two are / were bastards.

If the book writer and the show writers want us to feel for them as real life people ( and they do ) they add situations that mimic real life in those stories.

33 minutes ago, stillshimpy said:

They both do display signs of PTSD though and the impact of their trauma.  Even being unable to gauge the situation is a sign of that, but that aside for a moment.  Jon left the Night's Watch.  He was going to do so with or without Sansa showing up at the gate.  When Brienne found Sansa in the woods and rescued her, she couldn't even remember the words to accept an oath of service.  

There are signs and there is an impact on the character.  Even Sansa writing to Littlefinger is part of that cycle.  How can she really trust anyone fully?  I think she wants to trust Jon, but he didn't do any better in that meeting with Lady Mormont and don't forget: Davos was a smuggler.  He was in the service the social-skills-free Stannis.  How exactly did he best both Jon and Sansa in being able to accurately gauge a situation and say the needed words?  They were  both raised by the Warden of the North, but they were very much going by rote skills.  In Sansa's case, pretty much literally because she was parroting the correct words from a time before her trauma. 

So for one thing, sure the story treats trauma as if it carries forward and defines characters from that point onward:  Witness  Arya. The Hound.  Cersie.  Loras.  Lancel.  Theon who in this same episode was called out in the dialogue for the need to try and move past his trauma. 

The story and the series are treating trauma as if it has a lasting impact, so I don't see any reason to suspend that for either Sansa or Jon. 

Jon is better than that normally, but he is recently returned from the dead.  Both seem to be falling back on what they knew to work in the past, struggling for balance in this, the fairly hideous new world.  Both have had everything they understood about the rules of their world upended and both are supposed to be teenagers.  Hell, Sansa was employing a tactic that has previously worked for her in speaking the lines she knows she is supposed to "I am loyal to my beloved Joffrey." 

Sansa started the oath on her own, flubbed 5 words where Pod helped her, and finished the last 15 or so words, on her own, it was more of a shock of just escaping then PTSD.

[Oscirus]

I said it the wrong way. I meant that the particular situation we were talking about and Sansa and Jon's subsequent failure  wasn't ptsd induced.  Sometimes a failure's just a failure.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, doram said:

The oath of service was probably something that she never learnt properly. She was brought up believing she'd be Lady (at least) to some Great Lord and he'd play the role of accepting oaths, not her. 

It's also worth remembering that Sansa's mother is a Tully and a Southerner and she was brought up in very Southern ways and followed her mother's disposition.

I say she learned it well enough, not ever expecting to need reciting them is probably correct.

My main point is this isn't PTSD induced, just an unexpected twist for her which yielded a benefit. 

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

I said it the wrong way. I meant that the particular situation we were talking about and Sansa and Jon's subsequent failure  wasn't ptsd induced.  Sometimes a failure's just a failure.

Yes a failure to use what info they have, unfortunately they could not or felt they couldn't use Wun Wun or some other proof about the dead to Lord Glover.

Of course if Ghost was there maybe they have a second thought or two.

All info people have of the Boltons or Lannisters are by word of mouth no paper trail, and as far as Ned no witnesses (as of yet )have come forward. 

Speaking of Ghost; maybe the reason we don't see him is because he's doing the animal version of Jon's depression and is hiding until he's healed.

Ghost will return when Jon does and I think some Boltons will pay.

[stillshimpy]

Quote

Sansa started the oath on her own, flubbed 5 words where Pod helped her, and finished the last 15 or so words, on her own, it was more of a shock of just escaping then PTSD.

I don't think there's any way to actually know that, it can actually be both things at once.   She was in shock and she has a lot of reasons to have traumatic issues, although fewer than many people might in her place. 

Quote

I said it the wrong way. I meant that the particular situation we were talking about and Sansa and Jon's subsequent failure  wasn't ptsd induced.  Sometimes a failure's just a failure.

Right and damage from that much trauma isn't something that would ever not be present going forward.  So again, divorcing it from her recent past is just seeking to make both of them look wrong-footed and ignoring their larger context.  Sure, sometimes a failure is just a failure, but Sansa has been hideously abused and mistreated.  Jon being murdered by his own men is also something that just upends all the rules that he understood about this world. 

Standing in front of Lady Mormont is not something that is happening in a vacuum.   The entire reason Sansa is trying to rally forces to take back Winterfell is related to that most recent traumatic event and ALL of the other ones.  

Something related to the trauma is going to more likely have a foot in a PTSD response.  Just because she isn't disassociating, just because he has the ability to try and use the words he knows to persuade doesn't mean that the moment is then separate from that trauma.  PTSD is not easily compartmentalized.  

Also, I don't know if the makeup artist was just having a bad day, but I doubt it because only Sophie Turner and Kit Harrington looked haggard and drained in that scene.  Neither of them actually looks well on top of everything else.  Sophie Turner is a beautiful young woman and she had bags under her eyes for the entire episode.  I'm assuming that's because the makeup artist chose that.  Kit Harrington is also the color of curdled milk throughout. 

I'm not excusing away their behavior because it suits me, they look pretty weary and care-worn too. 

Edited June 10, 2016 by stillshimpy

[Gertrude]

The more I'm thinking about this episode the more it upsets me. Sure, we have the Mormonts and like 2 other houses that are backing Jon/Sansa. We have no clue about Manderly. We're assuming that it's the Vale that's going to swing up and turn the tide for the Starks. Please show, surprise me. If the only real indication that the North remembers is an elderly servant who ends her days as Ramsey's plaything, I'm going to be really upset and call troll bullshit on the writers. The North remembers indeed.

[Hecate7]

23 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I'd argue the issue lies more in how they were raised.  Lady Mormont was raised to be a ruler while Sansa was raised to be a wife.  So naturally the audience gravitates towards Mormont  because with today's values, it's easier for the audience to identify with Mormont.. 

While I agree that the audience more readily sympathizes with Lady Mormont, Arya, or Brienne, than Sansa, I disagree that Lady Mormont was raised to be a ruler, any more than Arya was. She's only ten. Her ferocity is partly natural, partly her imitation of the male relatives whose shoes she has been forced to fill. We forget, since we do not live in that type of world, that the presence of a girl in that chair means that her father, grandfather, uncles, brothers, and cousins are dead. We are used to female bosses, administrators, cops, politicians, professors, etc...whose male relatives are alive and well. But in medieval times, women only ruled when the family had run out of men. All girls were raised to be wives, but some simply didn't warm to the role.

I wonder if it's at all significant that the best rulers we've seen have both been ten-year-olds.

Edited June 11, 2016 by Hecate7

[SeanC]

7 hours ago, Hecate7 said:

While I agree that the audience more readily sympathizes with Lady Mormont, Arya, or Brienne, than Sansa, I disagree that Lady Mormont was raised to be a ruler, any more than Arya was. She's only ten. Her ferocity is partly natural, partly her imitation of the male relatives whose shoes she has been forced to fill. We forget, since we do not live in that type of world, that the presence of a girl in that chair means that her father, grandfather, uncles, brothers, and cousins are dead. We are used to female bosses, administrators, cops, politicians, professors, etc...whose male relatives are alive and well. But in medieval times, women only ruled when the family had run out of men. All girls were raised to be wives, but some simply didn't warm to the role.

If you buy that every season of this show is a year, which is the notional yardstick used by the creators, Lyanna Mormont would have been maybe 5 years old when her mother marched off to war in Season 1.  I don't know if we've been given a precise date for when Jorah fled his lordship, but it was years before the events of the series in the books, so she may never have met Jorah, and certainly wouldn't have any memories of his time in charge.  Jeor vacated his lordship in the 280s, well before she was born; quite likely she never met him.

Nor is there any mention of any older Mormont sisters in the show, so Lyanna has effectively been in nominal charge of Bear Island for half her life, and raised by the maester and other courtiers in the role as her mother's heir (and, since her mother presumably died in Season 3, has been Lady already for 2-3 years).  Not only is it accurate to say that Lyanna was raised to rule, she was raised while ruling.

Edited June 11, 2016 by SeanC

[nksarmi]

On 6/9/2016 at 10:05 PM, stillshimpy said:

Right? Equality and feminism are about having all choices available to women.  Not judging certain choices as inferior.  

That's where the trope of the rule-breaking badass girl tends to go wrong.  

 

Yeah, the fact that the North isn't portrayed as trying to kill Bolton and the Freys pretty much 24/7 baffles me.  Robb Stark's marital choices aside, Bolton slaughtered soldiers in an incredibly cowardly fashion and through an act of duplicity.  Bran watched Howland Reed stab Arthur Dayne in the back of the head to save his father's life and was just shocked (admittedly, he's a child) because that just doesn't fit with the rules as he understands them. 

Murdering scores of men by dropping flaming tents on them as they feasted with allies shouldn't be a matter of "Oh well, we didn't like his wife either, so...bygones on the wholesale slaughter and deceit!"  at the very, very least there ought to be attempts on their lives.  Instead it fell to Ramsay to kill Roose?  

Forget everything else, it doens't make sense that people aren't sending wine merchants, sausage makers and every other manner of "get on in there and kill the tar out of that, will you?"  assassin.   When the complaint against Robb boils down to "He broke his word!" it just doesn't make sense that the North says "So we'll take this open liar and savage without complaint" ....even if they have no interest in backing the Starks, they should have a helluva an interest in ending Bolton. 

Well, I mean but who is going to do it?

The Kastarks don't give a rip that the Boltons and Freys did what they did. They had already abandoned Robb when he killed the head of their family.

The Umbers seemed to be treading water trying to figure out which way the wind was blowing since they held the true heir to the North in their hands. They probably figured they'd protect him until they could mount enough strength to displace the Boltons and then Jon let thousands of Wildlings South of the Wall and their priorities changed.

It sounds like the Glovers have just retaken their home and the head of their house is clearly still in mourning. He might send an assassin when he has time to think about it.

And we really don't know where the other houses line up at this point. Plus, it doesn't seem like Roose was all that trusting of a fellow - even if he did underestimate Ramsey. He probably had someone tasting all his food and wine.

Edited June 11, 2016 by nksarmi

[Hecate7]

12 hours ago, SeanC said:

If you buy that every season of this show is a year, which is the notional yardstick used by the creators, Lyanna Mormont would have been maybe 5 years old when her mother marched off to war in Season 1.  I don't know if we've been given a precise date for when Jorah fled his lordship, but it was years before the events of the series in the books, so she may never have met Jorah, and certainly wouldn't have any memories of his time in charge.  Jeor vacated his lordship in the 280s, well before she was born; quite likely she never met him.

Nor is there any mention of any older Mormont sisters in the show, so Lyanna has effectively been in nominal charge of Bear Island for half her life, and raised by the maester and other courtiers in the role as her mother's heir (and, since her mother presumably died in Season 3, has been Lady already for 2-3 years).  Not only is it accurate to say that Lyanna was raised to rule, she was raised while ruling.

 

Actually it would be more accurate to say that she is being raised to rule at present. She's only 10--she has not been raised yet. She's still in the process. She's most likely mimicking someone. If her mother marched off to war when she was 5, perhaps it was the mother she's emulating, but children emulate. It's how they learn. And she's certainly not emulating her advisors or maesters--she's pretty clear on her relationship to them. If your estimate is correct, she's been ruling from age 7. Surely that's not what the family intended, but it's got to be very good training.

[Oscirus]

Quote

 

Right and damage from that much trauma isn't something that would ever not be present going forward.  So again, divorcing it from her recent past is just seeking to make both of them look wrong-footed and ignoring their larger context.  Sure, sometimes a failure is just a failure, but Sansa has been hideously abused and mistreated.  Jon being murdered by his own men is also something that just upends all the rules that he understood about this world. 

Standing in front of Lady Mormont is not something that is happening in a vacuum.   The entire reason Sansa is trying to rally forces to take back Winterfell is related to that most recent traumatic event and ALL of the other ones.  

Something related to the trauma is going to more likely have a foot in a PTSD response.  Just because she isn't disassociating, just because he has the ability to try and use the words he knows to persuade doesn't mean that the moment is then separate from that trauma.  PTSD is not easily compartmentalized.  

Also, I don't know if the makeup artist was just having a bad day, but I doubt it because only Sophie Turner and Kit Harrington looked haggard and drained in that scene.  Neither of them actually looks well on top of everything else.  Sophie Turner is a beautiful young woman and she had bags under her eyes for the entire episode.  I'm assuming that's because the makeup artist chose that.  Kit Harrington is also the color of curdled milk throughout. 

I'm not excusing away their behavior because it suits me, they look pretty weary and care-worn too

 

I get that they're traumatized, hell, I'd even get how it would affect their negotiations but in this case, I'm not seeing it. They weren't two wounded traumatized souls beaten down by life. They were negotiating like two people who were unprepared for the negotiations they were about to go through.  With Lyanna, they tried to take shortcuts with compliments and references from her family members and then after seeing what worked with her failed to use the same information in their negotiations with Glover.  Would they have been fresher for their meetings if not for their experiences? Probably. Would the negotiations have gone any differently? I doubt it.

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While I agree that the audience more readily sympathizes with Lady Mormont, Arya, or Brienne, than Sansa, I disagree that Lady Mormont was raised to be a ruler, any more than Arya was. She's only ten. Her ferocity is partly natural, partly her imitation of the male relatives whose shoes she has been forced to fill. We forget, since we do not live in that type of world, that the presence of a girl in that chair means that her father, grandfather, uncles, brothers, and cousins are dead. We are used to female bosses, administrators, cops, politicians, professors, etc...whose male relatives are alive and well. But in medieval times, women only ruled when the family had run out of men. All girls were raised to be wives, but some simply didn't warm to the role.

Arya was last in line (or next to last to Jon), Lyanna was first, I'd say that they were both raised differently. Arya was raised to be a wife (until Ned took her to King's landing), Lyanna was raised to be leader of Bear Island.

[John Potts]

Was Margery's slipping that note to Olenna meant to be unsubtle to show she isn't good at this or purely for the audience's benefit? And why so cryptic?

Well, it's the start of an army... Did Jon have ANY idea what to say before he got to the Mormont's Keep? Because neither he nor Sansa had a "pitch" statement prepared. Only Davos had any sort of argument ready. Since they don't (presumably) have Littlefinger's teleporter, why were they not discussing what they knew of each House on the way to them and have a tailored means of persuasion ready?

Yara is clearly a believer in tough love (not saying she's wrong either). Oh, and the least surprising lesbian reveal.

Arya - you're under a death sentence - maybe don't wonder around in public? Get to the docks and get the first ship out of there. You have money! But since I know she survives... that was pretty pathetic on the part of the Waif. If it wasn't for your Plot Armour, you would be so dead.

Huh - so the High Sparrow is not in favour of birth control. And how "tragic" to have to get your (potential) pregnancy explicitly endorsed by the Faith!

On ‎06‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 3:15 AM, benteen said:

Sansa shouldn’t be complaining about trusting Davos when she’s going to Littlefinger for help.  Ugh.  I really hope she tells Jon about this.

Yeah, bitching about how badly Jon's doing at rallying men to his side is clearly doing wonders for your team when you're keeping possible numbers secret from him. Great way of getting people to respect your authority by lying to them - you do realise people (including your brother) are risking their lives here? It's not all about you!

On ‎06‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 3:40 AM, vibeology said:

I wish the North plot was a little tighter, but I'm just glad we're getting it and I still have some hope that we've got a few families still to go. Robb made some bad choices, but he didn't actively stab Northerners like the Boltons

They could have played it as they intimidated by the Boltons. Even Houses that want the Boltons gone could point out that the last House to resist the Boltons had their Lord flayed in front of their keep. It might not be honourable, but it would be understandable.

On ‎06‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 7:56 PM, Avaleigh said:

I thought Lyanna was the niece of Jorah?

People seem to be confusing Mormonts: Jeor was the (late) Commander of the Night Watch: his son Jorah is Ser Friendzone with Danny. Lyanna is Jeor's niece (daughter of his sister, Maege Mormont) and Jorah's cousin. Clearly GRRM follows the Tolkien naming pattern where everyone in the same family has almost the same name!