S07.E04: Unforgiven

[DakotaJustice]

Personally I'm not sure whether what occurred last year was an affair per se but two things I know to be true: 

• it was hella embarrassing for Meri and the family
• it probably saved their bacon (i.e. The Show) for at least another season. 

[CofCinci]

If you check out old posts on the Catfish's blog or look in the Meri thread, you'll see either the actual texts and discussion about the Disney trip.  I'm not searching, but IIRC, the LIV/Disney trip was planned for Meri and Mariah. "Sam" basically invites himself (she can spot him in the crowd because he'll be wearing a short-sleeve white dress shirt with a tie?) . Then flirting ensued and it turned into plans to meet.  Of course "Sam" doesn't show but his BFF "Lindsey" came to Disney (on the dime of the woman Jackie was catfishing prior/concurrent to Meri) in his place. Somehow "Lindsey" gets sick and Meri drives her back to the hotel. Speculation here, I think she only cared for the ill "Lindsey" to hopefully meet "Sam" back at the hotel.  At this point in their relationship, I believe she only wanted to sell LIV to him. 

[SongbirdHollow]

4 hours ago, kimaken said:

Wow, so if you so much as "think" about another person, or chat online with another person, you're having an emotional affair? What about wives fantasizing about making love with their favorite handsome actor while having sex with their average-looking, beer-bellied, slobbish husbands, or husbands fantasizing about being with their favorite glamorous movie star instead of their average-looking, plump/overweight wives? Guess that's an affair, too! And casual, flirtatious banter among friends and co-workers--affair!

 

I'm glad I'm older and unattached--I'm afraid if I look at anyone or speak with anyone, even spending time on these forums--I'd be accused of haning an affair!

Really???? If you were married and your spouse exchanged the kind of texts, photos, and voicemails with someone that Meri did, you'd be OK with it? Everyone draws the line somewhere I guess, but if you need the P in the V to consider it an affair, I have to disagree with you.

[SongbirdHollow]

On June 3, 2016 at 8:25 PM, StayingAfterSunday said:

About Meri's request to take Solomon with her on the trip.

I agree with those who suspect she had an ulterior motive in making this request.

There's no "suspect" about it. She flat out said he'd be a buffer, right in the episode.

[kimaken]

1 hour ago, SongbirdHollow said:

Really???? If you were married and your spouse exchanged the kind of texts, photos, and voicemails with someone that Meri did, you'd be OK with it? Everyone draws the line somewhere I guess, but if you need the P in the V to consider it an affair, I have to disagree with you.

No--I wouldn't be okay with it. Like another poster stated, she and her hubby share with each other, passwords, etc, and when I was married (prior to computers becoming so popular and available) my hubby and I shared a lot together -- until his behavior started changing (hanging out with his best friend all the time, ignoring our son and me to spend time with said best friend--and when it became obvious that he preferred the company of another man, we divorced).

 

BUT--Meri and Kody don't have a typical marriage--they were legally wed for 24-25 yrs and then he divorced her to marry his newest "spiritual wife". Kody wasn't living with Meri, spent very little time with Meri, and rarely was at her house--to me, that isn't a real marriage where spouses share everything, good and bad, with their life partner.

[kimaken]

4 hours ago, RazzleberryPie said:

Even if Catdish initiates it all, Meri continued it. This was a reciprocal relationship where they were sexting, planning a future (she said she wanted to have his babies), and emotionally attached. There was two way communication and some sort of relationship with emotions. She was hiding it al from her family, because she knew she was doing wrong, enjoyed the thrill, and wanted to one up them all when he strolled in on his white horse and rescued her. 

This told me how unhappy and desperate Meri was--saying and doing all these things with someone she'd never even met in person! I read somewhere that Robyn knew what was going on, either Meri finally told her or Robyn's buddy, Kendall, who was somehow involved in part of this sordid mess, told her. But again--Meri is NOT close with Janelle or Christine, so why would she confide in them! Who did she have to confide in?

As for one-upping "them"--that I can believe because I think Meri did not initiate the divorce for the sake of Robyn's kids--I believe Kody told Meri he wanted to divorce her to marry Robyn and that was that. The spiel about divorcing for the sake of the kids was the family's way of saving face on tv--"oh look, Meri's doing this great thing because she's so noble and that's how plyg families are better than non-plygs...". I can see Meri wanted to shove it Kody's face that some young, handsome, rich guy found her attractive and interesting and wanted to be with her. I think she was that hurt after 24-25 yrs of marriage to be dumped like yesterday's garbage!

[laurakaye]

5 hours ago, kimaken said:

No--I wouldn't be okay with it. Like another poster stated, she and her hubby share with each other, passwords, etc, and when I was married (prior to computers becoming so popular and available) my hubby and I shared a lot together -- until his behavior started changing (hanging out with his best friend all the time, ignoring our son and me to spend time with said best friend--and when it became obvious that he preferred the company of another man, we divorced).

BUT--Meri and Kody don't have a typical marriage--they were legally wed for 24-25 yrs and then he divorced her to marry his newest "spiritual wife". Kody wasn't living with Meri, spent very little time with Meri, and rarely was at her house--to me, that isn't a real marriage where spouses share everything, good and bad, with their life partner.

They do have a typical marriage, for them.  Meri doesn't know any other way.  To me, it's not a real marriage either, but I'm not in a polygamist marriage.  I totally understand what you're saying - hey, my "husband" divorces me to marry the Evil Queen, only spends a couple of nights with me, is basically a non-entity in my daily life, it's tempting to give Meri more leeway than a "normal" woman in a normal marriage...but polygamy is exactly what Meri signed up for when she married Kody.  She knew that this was going to be her life.  I don't think for one minute that she was prepared for her feelings of raging jealously and anger, but that doesn't justify her sending banana pictures to a stranger, or scratching "his" name into her arm, or saying she loves "him."  She did have an affair on Kody.  What Meri will never say out loud is that from the moment Kody brought Janelle into the fold, he'd been having an affair on her as well under the name of "polygamy."  To us as outsiders, it's crystal clear - Kody can bed more than one woman but Meri cannot bed more than one man, and that is WRONG.  I think deep down, Meri knows this but will probably never be able to confess that she feels duped, betrayed, and hurt.  Those are precisely the feelings that she thinks she needs to bury every single day, while a carefree Kody flits from house to house, searching for the perfect bedmate for that night.

[AZChristian]

A thousand "likes" and a loud AMEN, laurakaye.  Well said!!!

[kimaken]

I read that Kody and Meri wed first--THEN afterwards, he insisted on living polygamous. Meri didn't really have much of a choice since she grew up in a polygamous family and knew her options then were none. But...she was legally married to Kody (probably hasn't had sex with him since he's openly favored Robyn. For 24+ years, Meri was legally married...and then she was dumped for wife #4--now, she's no longer legally married. I believe her "spiritual wife" status is in name only--there's no real relationship between her and Kody anymore. I agree she was stupid to do all those juvenile things--the suggestive pictures, the carving his name, etc--someone male was paying HER attention--and she had just been divorced/dumped by Kody, who I bet hadn't paid her any attention for a long time (after all, she wasn't producing the all important babies for his planet), but I think she was acting out much like a junior high school girl with a crush on the handsome football quarterback. At the time, her feelings were probably still pretty raw about the divorce, so when this online chatting began, she probably didn't care--this was, at that time, all online, and since Kody's never around and doesn't bother with her computer stuff in her house, she was having fun getting a guy's flattering attention. But it all blew up and left her hurt and humiliated.  

Pure speculation, but I also think she may be afraid of Kody--when he blew up about the Thanksgiving table arrangement, she tried to say something and when he yelled again, she quickly said it was Christine's idea. She even said afterwards she said that because she doesn't like it when Kody gets mad--perhaps he's shown her some serious anger off camera in between filming the finale last season and the first episode of this season. 

So, while I think what Meri did was stupid and foolish, I don't see it as a full-blown affair, emotional or otherwise. If she'd still been legally married or Kody was treating her like a full-fledged wife instead of a business associate, I'd agree with you about the emotional affair. Kody divorced Meri and "said" she was still a spiritual wife, but there was nothing to show him maintaining an emotional connection with Meri now that he got what he wanted--Robyn as his legal wife.

[BlackWidow]

17 hours ago, kimaken said:

 

Pure speculation, but I also think she may be afraid of Kody--when he blew up about the Thanksgiving table arrangement, she tried to say something and when he yelled again, she quickly said it was Christine's idea. She even said afterwards she said that because she doesn't like it when Kody gets mad--perhaps he's shown her some serious anger off camera in between filming the finale last season and the first episode of this season. 

 

I was wondering this too, this part didn't seem invented for the scene. I can't see the guy smacking them around, but people have been known to put up a front that all is well. Verbal abuse, like constantly criticizing or going into rages over everyday stupid things counts too, and breaks a person down. We don't know how tightly wound Brown is, so we just don't know. I really hope this isn't the case.

Edited June 12, 2016 by BlackWidow
trimmed to relevant part I was replying to

[RazzleberryPie]

They've been raised to believe that dishonoring their husband dishonors nad angers God, so fear of Kody is multilayered.

[Aethera]

We're unlikely to agree about what does or does not constitute an affair, but if you want to continue that discussion, Small Talk seems like a good place :)

[MonicaM]

On 6/10/2016 at 8:24 AM, outtahere said:

Meri did work and has job skills.  She has friends and connections in LV and I'm sure they would help her get a job and a place to stay.  Just look at all the cake stores and sign shops they have bought from.

I think Meri is just unsure of herself and afraid to make a life of her own.  She has been in this poly situation for so long she wouldn't know how to act without the direction of Kody.

It's a lost cause, she isn't going anywhere.

Just remember that guilt is a very strong issue to deal with and she's full of it.

Quite honestly, I think at this point if I were in Meri's shoes, I'd continue to ride the TLC money train until it ended.  I'd enjoy the trips to Alaska, Hawaii, etc. and do my best to ignore lovebirds Kody and Robyn.  I believe the day will come when at least Meri and Janelle will dump Kody for good, but since they're come this far, they might as well stay the course until the money runs out.  And it will run out, probably within a few months of the show's cancellation.  

[CofCinci]

On June 12, 2016 at 10:01 PM, RazzleberryPie said:

They've been raised to believe that dishonoring their husband dishonors nad angers God, so fear of Kody is multilayered.

Yes, and the consequences of the dishonor can affect you for eternity. Imagine all your loved ones are chilling on a planet and you're limbo away from them. 

[Kohola3]

Quote

 Imagine all your loved ones are chilling on a planet and you're limbo away from them. 

And with this group of yahoos this would be a bad thing?  Stuck in eternity with a group of dysfunctional idiots that you actually can't stand?  I think not.

[ReadMeLattice]

On 6/10/2016 at 6:00 AM, Madding crowd said:

Saying someone would have had an affair is not the same as saying she did have an affair. Of course it's wrong to send sexy pics to someone who is not your husband. But it's not an affair. It's also wrong for all the men out there who sent sex texts to people they meet online, and it's a clear sign something is wrong with the marriage. But it's not an affair until he shows up at their house and has sex with them. Honestly if we were all judged on something we "might have done but didn't" we would all be guilty of something. 

I very much disagree. If you are professing love to someone for months, spending the majority of your time talking to them, and planning to leave your husband and family for them, it is an affair.

To take this logic to its conclusion, if the person doesn't have sex until marriage or can't have sex for some physical reason? Is it then impossible to have an affair with them? If you go on romantic, intimate dates with someone and lie to your spouse about it but don't have sex, is it not cheating?! Of course it is. You're still married to someone even if they're deployed and you don't see them or have sex with them for a year, so it would stand to reason that you can also cheat in the same way. 

Sorry, didn't see the mods' note before I wrote this. Carry on and ignore! 

Edited June 15, 2016 by Lm2162

[ReadMeLattice]

On 6/11/2016 at 7:12 PM, kimaken said:

I read that Kody and Meri wed first--THEN afterwards, he insisted on living polygamous. Meri didn't really have much of a choice since she grew up in a polygamous family and knew her options then were none. But...she was legally married to Kody (probably hasn't had sex with him since he's openly favored Robyn. For 24+ years, Meri was legally married...and then she was dumped for wife #4--now, she's no longer legally married. I believe her "spiritual wife" status is in name only--there's no real relationship between her and Kody anymore. I agree she was stupid to do all those juvenile things--the suggestive pictures, the carving his name, etc--someone male was paying HER attention--and she had just been divorced/dumped by Kody, who I bet hadn't paid her any attention for a long time (after all, she wasn't producing the all important babies for his planet), but I think she was acting out much like a junior high school girl with a crush on the handsome football quarterback. At the time, her feelings were probably still pretty raw about the divorce, so when this online chatting began, she probably didn't care--this was, at that time, all online, and since Kody's never around and doesn't bother with her computer stuff in her house, she was having fun getting a guy's flattering attention. But it all blew up and left her hurt and humiliated.  

Pure speculation, but I also think she may be afraid of Kody--when he blew up about the Thanksgiving table arrangement, she tried to say something and when he yelled again, she quickly said it was Christine's idea. She even said afterwards she said that because she doesn't like it when Kody gets mad--perhaps he's shown her some serious anger off camera in between filming the finale last season and the first episode of this season. 

They 100% agreed on polygamy before they were married. It was their mutual religion. It was not pushed on Meri by Kody in any way. Meri professes to still be a devoted member of the AUB (fundamentalist Mormon cult).

We might not see polygamy as four real marriages, but those women and their own religious beliefs certainly do. Legal marriage and divorce mean nothing in their eyes. It was not a breakup to them. They have all been "sealed" in the Mormon temple, which means sealed for eternity, beyond death, to one's husband AND each other. That's why we didn't see Kody's marriage to Robyn. It was a sealing. Kody not paying attention to Meri doesn't take that spiritual reality away in her eyes. She was the one who asked Kody to stop coming around for a while (because she was "with" the catfish). In her eyes, she has been married this entire time. And she didn't just chat or fantasize. She planned an entire future and professed undying love. While married. Yep, he ignored Meri for Robyn. In Meri's chosen religion, that is OK and makes her no less married.

Our rules of divorce don't apply and are inferior in these people's eyes.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Lm2162

[kimaken]

1 hour ago, Lm2162 said:

They have all been "sealed" in the Mormon temple

I admit my ignorance in the Mormon religion, etc, but I thought mainstream Mormonism no longer follows polygamy, so how were the Browns sealed in the Mormon temple? Is that an actual place or building? I find it confusing, but I also am confused about how the Browns mix legal laws (one legal wife; one legal divorce, adoption, bankruptcies, using the welfare system, etc) and whatever they want to believe is their religion.

I don't watch the show much and certainly not before last season, so I have special affinity for any of these people -- I think they're all a bunch of nuts. However, I feel bad for Meri, not only for lacking the guts to leave Kody and make a life for herself, but for all the hate and condemnation that's heaped on her here. Honestly, if it'd been Janelle or Christine, I think the consensus would be, "poor thing...she tried to get out and was hoodwinked instead". There would be no condemnation of "she cheated" and "she got what she deserved".

In the long run, though, it really doesn't matter what I think.

[ReadMeLattice]

38 minutes ago, kimaken said:

I admit my ignorance in the Mormon religion, etc, but I thought mainstream Mormonism no longer follows polygamy, so how were the Browns sealed in the Mormon temple? Is that an actual place or building? I find it confusing, but I also am confused about how the Browns mix legal laws (one legal wife; one legal divorce, adoption, bankruptcies, using the welfare system, etc) and whatever they want to believe is their religion.

I don't watch the show much and certainly not before last season, so I have special affinity for any of these people -- I think they're all a bunch of nuts. However, I feel bad for Meri, not only for lacking the guts to leave Kody and make a life for herself, but for all the hate and condemnation that's heaped on her here. Honestly, if it'd been Janelle or Christine, I think the consensus would be, "poor thing...she tried to get out and was hoodwinked instead". There would be no condemnation of "she cheated" and "she got what she deserved".

I don't think she got what she deserved, but it would be an affair if one of them did that, certainly. Even if an affair is justified, it's an affair. It would also depend on if they lied about it repeatedly, guilted other people for their affair, continued to act shittily towards the other wives, didn't actually leave, kept praising their religion, etc. She also continues to actively promote polygamy and the religion while knowing it causes harm. 

As for the temple thing, yes, it is an actual place separate from the church building (where weekly services/meetings take place). There, they do sealings, endowments, and baptisms for the dead. I grew up Mormon (not anymore) and there was drama over people from the AUB and other fundamentalist Mormon cults trying to enter the mainstream temples to get sealings and other "blessings." They have since built their own temples as well because the mainstream church cracked down. They have one full temple in Mexico and a smaller one in Utah due to legal issues. The dresses they each wore at their weddings were textbook sealing/temple dresses. They made eternal vows to Kody but also one another. The sister wives are part of the other sealings. The fundamentalist ones take place in secret. 

The Browns are following actual original Mormon doctrine, unfortunately. It's the mainstream LDS Church that's distanced themselves, but they are the original teachings. In the AUB/FLDS, you cannot enter the highest ring of the celestial kingdom if you are not a polygamist. Technically speaking that is still Mormon doctrine, but nobody talks about it. 

Edited June 15, 2016 by Lm2162

[ReadMeLattice]

Here is someone's account of a visit to an AUB chapel. They mention the "endowment house" (substitute temple). http://52weeks52churches.blogspot.com/2014/05/my-surreal-visit-to-apostolic-united.html?m=1

This is a mainstream Mormon temple. Much more public. 

Edited June 15, 2016 by Lm2162

[Coffee Girl]

I think if Meri's love interest hadn't turned out to be a women she would have likely been out the door, but she got caught so she had to do some back peddling.

And I get a little tired with Janelle and her playing the victim role, quit whispering, speak up for once woman, and uncross your arms, she uses the I can't do this and I can't do that excuse so she can be lazy , cripes anyone can paint a can and stick a flower in it.

[Featherhat]

5 hours ago, Lm2162 said:

They 100% agreed on polygamy before they were married. It was their mutual religion. It was not pushed on Meri by Kody in any way. Meri professes to still be a devoted member of the AUB (fundamentalist Mormon cult).

We might not see polygamy as four real marriages, but those women and their own religious beliefs certainly do. Legal marriage and divorce mean nothing in their eyes. It was not a breakup to them.

I know that's the official doctrine of their Church and what they were spouting on TV but I don't think it was that simple IRL. Kodouche and Sobbin certainly paraded it around as though their "non spiritual" marriage was important to them beyond the adoption (honeymoon in Hawaii and "legal" baby right afterwards).

Meri certainly seemed upset in the lawyer's office and it was supposed to be a martyrdom/sacrifice for her to protect the kids. Not to mention it seems to have snowballed into the catfish situation, and it's not hard to see why.

 

Now under the terms of their spiritual arrangements it was certainly cheating for her to be planning to run off with the world's least believable manly billionaire but it's not hard to see that she was less than rock sure of her "spiritual status" in Kody's Harem and that Robyn was as smugly gleeful as anything, just like a mistress who finally convinced her lover to give *her* the ring. When Kody was asked if he would now legally divorce Robyn to marry one of the others or have them ALL on just a spiritual footing he looked dumbfounded as anything and said of course not.

I do think they started out very religious and didn't really show it on TV but I do wonder how many of them are still religious BTS or simply just sticking around like the Brady Wives.

I think a lot of Mormon Temples are very beautiful in a completely ostentatious way and I'm kind of fascinated by them, I know they have several special spiritual rooms but are there lots of floors and different areas inside or is it more "open for several 100 feet" like a lot of large Cathedrals are?

[Kohola3]

The only one I have seen is in Nauvoo, IL.  Prior to its dedication or blessing or whatever the heck it was, visitors were allowed.  But after that, non-LDS were not allowed inside the door.

[SongbirdHollow]

I can't help but think that Meri has always thought that "what's good for the gander is good for the goose" to flip that phrase around. Didn't she once ask Kody what he thought about her taking another husband and he told her that was vulgar? 

They all seem to want to pick and choose whatever appeals to them in their "religion".

[laurakaye]

16 hours ago, SongbirdHollow said:

I can't help but think that Meri has always thought that "what's good for the gander is good for the goose" to flip that phrase around. Didn't she once ask Kody what he thought about her taking another husband and he told her that was vulgar? 

They all seem to want to pick and choose whatever appeals to them in their "religion".

She sure did, and that was in one of the early episodes.  So that makes me wonder - did she ask Kody that question because she was prompted to by TLC (knowing that this was likely a question in the minds of the viewers)?  If she said that all on her own, I find it an interesting question coming from someone who was raised in polygamy.  She already knew the answer, she knew exactly what Kody would say.  One wife with multiple husbands is simply not done - the man is the headship, period.  It was a pointless question.  So why would she even bring it up?  If she was trying to get Kody to see her point of view on jealousy, she had to have known she would be discussing this with a brick wall.

[Featherhat]

I guess it might have been a TLC question, for the "controversy" of Kody declaring polyandry vulgar and then swanning off to the next wife on the schedule. Or it might have been the Brown's knowing non plygs are curious, Meri trying to get Kody to declare that he could never, ever picture her with another man because he true loves her so much. Or attempting to discuss jealousy issues by trying to get to his empathy. Yeah Good Luck. He doesn't even give a monkey' uncle about trying to sooth jealousy among the wives he does have or attempt to treat them with equal affection, let alone putting himself in someone else's shoes.

[Nowhere]

On June 15, 2016 at 5:55 PM, SongbirdHollow said:

I can't help but think that Meri has always thought that "what's good for the gander is good for the goose" to flip that phrase around. Didn't she once ask Kody what he thought about her taking another husband and he told her that was vulgar? 

They all seem to want to pick and choose whatever appeals to them in their "religion".

I'm pretty sure it was said in jest.

[Celia Rubenstein]

Asking Kody how he would feel if she was with another man was an attempt by Meri to get Kody to understand how she was feeling about him showering attention on Robyn.   Of course, he managed to make it all about himself.

Here's a clip

http://jezebel.com/5660981/sister-wives-husband-sickened-by-idea-of-wife-with-another-man

And he was not speaking in jest when he said the idea was vulgar, sickened him, was against God and nature, etc.  He was totally serious.  

Edited June 17, 2016 by Celia Rubenstein

[Nowhere]

50 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

Asking Kody how he would feel if she was with another man was an attempt by Meri to get Kody to understand how she was feeling about him showering attention on Robyn.   Of course, he managed to make it all about himself.

Here's a clip

http://jezebel.com/5660981/sister-wives-husband-sickened-by-idea-of-wife-with-another-man

And he was not speaking in jest when he said the idea was vulgar, sickened him, was against God and nature, etc.  He was totally serious.  

I didn't say he said that in jest nor did I think that at all. I said that she was obviously not serious about what she said considering that's not part of the religion. And if she was so upset about Robyn then she shouldn't have hooked them up.

[Celia Rubenstein]

You didn't actually use the word "she" and I thought you were talking about Kody.  But I see what you mean now.  

Actually, Meri was not speaking in jest either. She was seriously trying get Kody to imagine how he would feel if she were the one hooking up with someone else. She was quite sincere. It had nothing to do with whether or not it was part of their religion or something she was seriously contemplating.  It was purely an excise in empathy.

Of course Kody refused to go there. He said it would be "unhealthy" emotionally, lol.  He expects his wives to experience those emotions 24/7 but he won't even imagine walking in their shoes for five seconds.

What an ass.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Celia Rubenstein

[Celia Rubenstein]

I meant to add ... the idea that Meri is not entitled to be upset because she agreed with Kody courting Robyn doesn't work for me.  I don't think that just because Meri is following through with the tenets of her religion about there being other wives brought in means she forfeits her right to have feelings about the matter.  Especially when her husband handled it as badly as Kody did.  Just having to share your husband with yet another woman is enough of a strain, but Kody clearly played favorites in a way he had not done when Janelle and Christine entered the family.  Add to that the relatively lavish wedding and the ten day honeymoon they went on ... the other wives never got anything like that.  Kody picked out Robyn's wedding dress - then TOLD the other wives he'd done so.  He could have been much more considerate but he never seemed to worry about how any of his wives felt at all. I can't blame Meri or any of the others for feeling jealous and slighted.  

Meri was actually a lot more patient in expressing her feelings than I think most women could be.  But I guess she is used to dealing with a man who has the emotional maturity of a toddler after twenty years of being married to Kody. 

Edited June 17, 2016 by Celia Rubenstein

[toodles]

5 hours ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

You didn't actually use the word "she" and I thought you were talking about Kody.  But I see what you mean now.  

Actually, Meri was not speaking in jest either. She was seriously trying get Kody to imagine how he would feel if she were the one hooking up with someone else. She was quite sincere. It had nothing to do with whether or not it was part of their religion or something she was seriously contemplating.  It was purely an excise in empathy.

Of course Kody refused to go there. He said it would be "unhealthy" emotionally, lol.  He expects his wives to experience those emotions 24/7 but he won't even imagine walking in their shoes for five seconds.

What an ass.

I'm sure you meant assHAT.  lol

[SometimesBites]

16 hours ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

I meant to add ... the idea that Meri is not entitled to be upset because she agreed with Kody courting Robyn doesn't work for me.  I don't think that just because Meri is following through with the tenets of her religion about there being other wives brought in means she forfeits her right to have feelings about the matter.  Especially when her husband handled it as badly as Kody did.  Just having to share your husband with yet another woman is enough of a strain, but Kody clearly played favorites in a way he had not done when Janelle and Christine entered the family.  Add to that the relatively lavish wedding and the ten day honeymoon they went on ... the other wives never got anything like that.  Kody picked out Robyn's wedding dress - the TOLD the other wives he'd done so.  He could have been much more considerate but he never seemed to worry about how any of his wives felt at all. I can't blame Meri or any of the others for feeling jealous and slighted.  

Meri was actually a lot more patient in expressing her feelings than I think most women could be.  But I guess she is used to dealing with a man who has the emotional maturity of a toddler after twenty years of being married to Kody. 

Empathy for how the women feel is not required for Kody (and every other patriarchal male in his religion). When it comes to jealousy, that's not his problem. That's the grand purifying fire the wives are supposed to hold to their souls in longsuffering silence. THAT'S the thing that's supposed to make them all "better" people. Such horseshit.

Edited June 18, 2016 by SometimesBites

[toodles]

2 hours ago, SometimesBites said:

Empathy for how the women feel is not required for Kody (and every other patriarchal male in his religion). When it comes to jealousy, that's not his problem. That's the grand purifying fire the wives are supposed to hold to their souls in longsuffering silence. THAT'S the thing that's supposed to make them all "better" people. Such horseshit.

And holding it down and suffering in silence has worked so well for them. All you have to do is look at the original recipe wives to see how great their marriages work for them.  This life takes a huge toll on the women involved.

[Kohola3]

Quote

This life takes a huge toll on the women involved.

This show has done a fabulous job of showing why polygamy is so toxic.  If their intention was to sell it....epic fail.

 It is abundantly clear that the thoughts, feeling, and needs of women are totally meaningless other than to be breeding sows.  The thoughts, feeling, and needs of the sperm donor outrank everything.  It takes a special kind of brainless idiot to buy into this crap.  And they go by the name of Brown.

 

 

 3

[Celia Rubenstein]

Thank god it appears none of the (older) kids have the slightest intention of practicing polygamy.

That really kind of says it all right there, doesn't it?  None of the kids who have grown up in the Brown houses want any part of polygamy.  They recognize "the principle" as the source of unhappiness it really is.  And they learned it from watching their own parents. And so did everyone else who watches this show.  Good job, Browns!

It's funny because in their book the Browns claim they did this show to counter the image of polygamy that was being created by the likes of Warren Jeffs. They wanted to show the world the good side of polygamy, lol. Ok, I will give them that much ... they are not a pack of child molesters who marry off twelve year old girls to old men. Yay for you, Browns. But as far as showing the good side of polygamy, this show has been a massive failure.  The overwhelming takeaway I get after watching seven seasons of this mess is that polygamy SUCKS. I see children being neglected by a father who can't possibly be there for twenty of them spread across multiple houses, children who have to give up part of their own childhood in order to care for their younger siblings because somehow in this giant family with so many "parents" there is no one else there to do it. I see wives who are jealous and lonely and miserable and in denial about why... wives who blame themselves or turn on each other because they have no means of redress with their husband who can't possibly meet all their needs.  And I see people who can't support their giant broods without income from a tv show or government assistance, people who have to move relatives into the house to help with all those kids because their father is too busy cozying up with his favorite to be there for them.

Maybe they have shown not all plygs are like the Warren Jeff's people, but as far as making polygamy look "okay" or acceptable in any way, sorry Browns, you failed. Thank god your kids won't make the same mistake you did 

[Nowhere]

14 hours ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

Thank god it appears none of the (older) kids have the slightest intention of practicing polygamy.

That really kind of says it all right there, doesn't it?  None of the kids who have grown up in the Brown houses want any part of polygamy.  They recognize "the principle" as the source of unhappiness it really is.  And they learned it from watching their own parents. And so did everyone else who watches this show.  Good job, Browns!

It's funny because in their book the Browns claim they did this show to counter the image of polygamy that was being created by the likes of Warren Jeffs. They wanted to show the world the good side of polygamy, lol. Ok, I will give them that much ... they are not a pack of child molesters who marry off twelve year old girls to old men. Yay for you, Browns. But as far as showing the good side of polygamy, this show has been a massive failure.  The overwhelming takeaway I get after watching seven seasons of this mess is that polygamy SUCKS. I see children being neglected by a father who can't possibly be there for twenty of them spread across multiple houses, children who have to give up part of their own childhood in order to care for their younger siblings because somehow in this giant family with so many "parents" there is no one else there to do it. I see wives who are jealous and lonely and miserable and in denial about why... wives who blame themselves or turn on each other because they have no means of redress with their husband who can't possibly meet all their needs.  And I see people who can't support their giant broods without income from a tv show or government assistance, people who have to move relatives into the house to help with all those kids because their father is too busy cozying up with his favorite to be there for them.

Maybe they have shown not all plygs are like the Warren Jeff's people, but as far as making polygamy look "okay" or acceptable in any way, sorry Browns, you failed. Thank god your kids won't make the same mistake you did 

I think all the kids are very well adjusted and smart. None of them get into trouble or seem rebellious and they all seem very happy. There's no way Kodouche could have a good strong relationship with every single child but I do think he tries and I think the kids all feel loved by their dad even though he may not have the time to spend. Don't get me wrong, whether he loves the hell out of all of them or not, he chose to get in over his head kid-wise and that in itself is so incredibly selfish.

That being said, in my opinion, the reason none of them want to practice polygamy is because I really don't feel like it is natural for a woman to want to share. A woman's basic instinct is monogamy and, yeah all the girls see that their mothers are miserable for one reason or another. 

I don't think male instinct is much different from females even though I've heard professionals on the topic say otherwise. Not only that, they are allowed to use their brains to come to their own conclusions and not brainwashed like some sects do to their children. 

i agree that another reason for not wanting to practice polygamy may be because of the ridiculous amount of baby sisters and baby brothers to take care of. Janelle is the main culprit. She pawns her kids off on anybody. She's a very selfish mother and ADMITS IT! That is not something I would be proud of and if you knew motherhood wasn't your thing, honey, then you should have kept your damn legs shut or taken a pill. It just makes me sick how often she talks about not wanting to take care of her kids and how Christine did that for her. Sickening. 

[SongbirdHollow]

6 hours ago, Nowhere said:

That being said, in my opinion, the reason none of them want to practice polygamy is because I really don't feel like it is natural for a woman to want to share. A woman's basic instinct is monogamy and, yeah all the girls see that their mothers are miserable for one reason or another. 

I don't think male instinct is much different from females even though I've heard professionals on the topic say otherwise. Not only that, they are allowed to use their brains to come to their own conclusions and not brainwashed like some sects do to their children. 

Taking my response to Small Talk.

[BlackWidow]

On 6/13/2016 at 11:59 AM, MonicaM said:

Quite honestly, I think at this point if I were in Meri's shoes, I'd continue to ride the TLC money train until it ended.  I'd enjoy the trips to Alaska, Hawaii, etc. and do my best to ignore lovebirds Kody and Robyn.  I believe the day will come when at least Meri and Janelle will dump Kody for good, but since they're come this far, they might as well stay the course until the money runs out.  And it will run out, probably within a few months of the show's cancellation.  

I'd ride the gravy train too, while socking away as much as I could, or paying off the mcmansion, and keeping as much separate from the rest of them as possible. I would bet the 'lovebirds' thing is over with, just because of time and kids, and of course, her wanting to not have to keep babymaking as I'm sure it isn't getting easier with time. They do need a new storyline though and endless weddings and baby showers and pool parties are getting lame.
I think #5 is on the horizon, like other posters say.

On 6/15/2016 at 4:51 AM, Kohola3 said:

And with this group of yahoos this would be a bad thing?  Stuck in eternity with a group of dysfunctional idiots that you actually can't stand?  I think not.

Sounds like more of a threat than a promise or incentive, right? If she's not on their planet, it's like she dodged a bullet.  Maybe the kids can still visit her planet someday , omg, I can't lol...

On 6/15/2016 at 9:17 AM, kimaken said:

However, I feel bad for Meri, not only for lacking the guts to leave Kody and make a life for herself, but for all the hate and condemnation that's heaped on her here. Honestly, if it'd been Janelle or Christine, I think the consensus would be, "poor thing...she tried to get out and was hoodwinked instead". There would be no condemnation of "she cheated" and "she got what she deserved".

In the long run, though, it really doesn't matter what I think.

I'm not sure that 'everyone' does condemn her or has that self-righteous, mega-bitchy "doesn't matter if he's a douche, she signed up for it, nyah nyah", I'm a good girl and you're not, you didn't follow the rules,you're going to hell whereas I am in the luxurious time-share on super-special upgraded planet #1.."  - this show, while having dog-paddled along for years, likely has a limited audience made up of curiosity-seekers and plyg-descendants or ex-plygs/current plygs etc., point being this is a niche interest, and opinions on the whole catfish thing are likely to be mixed between (at least) the two aforementioned groups. I used to be under the mistaken impression this was a matriarchal culture just because there were more women than men, but I was wrong. The almost high-school mentality of mean-girl passive-aggression and competition, back-biting and desperation in their bids to continually attempt to feel 'special' and get attention and approval is sad and sometimes torturous and sometimes embarrassing and uncomfortable even for the viewer to watch. If they think we are buying all the "oh look how cute and stupid Kody is when he does this, teeheehee" yeah we know all that lighthearted laughter is fake. If it got any more strained, you could feed it to the littlest Brown as baby food.

On 6/15/2016 at 11:32 AM, Coffee Girl said:

And I get a little tired with Janelle and her playing the victim role, quit whispering, speak up for once woman, and uncross your arms, she uses the I can't do this and I can't do that excuse so she can be lazy , cripes anyone can paint a can and stick a flower in it.

        I don't think it's playing the victim so much but the deal with the oh my, I'm so shy and passive, I can't deal..yoh it's just so awkward..yes it is getting tiresome. Even the 'will Janelle be friends with Meri' storyline is meh, don't even care if they get long or don't or hang out anymore. Maybe at some point you realize that while life may be too short to hold a grudge, it is also too short to spend a lot of time on something that just is too difficult to do and realize you don't have to make a false choice of either enemies or BFFs and just let things sort of lie somewhere in the grey area, a kind of limbo where you have to learn to accept things aren't going to always be comfortable and not everything gets worked out to everyone's satisfaction. It's kind of like a campground named 'too little, too late'.

On 6/16/2016 at 0:39 PM, Featherhat said:

Yeah Good Luck. He doesn't even give a monkey' uncle about trying to sooth jealousy among the wives he does have or attempt to treat them with equal affection, let alone putting himself in someone else's shoes.

     I think he is sort of admitting he was a tool, in one of the more recent shows they showed him watching himself and sort of shaking his head. Him doing that doesn't necessarily mean he still isn't a tool presently. The weird puzzled face he puts on whenever anyone talks about anything heavy almost makes it seem like he has some kind of disability, as if everyone started speaking in a language he can't grasp. We all know the look I am talking about, the trying to appear as if he is thinking or concentrating but looking more like 'lost-in-a -foreign- country-and-realizing-you-also-lost-your-wallet' look. He really does look like he is challenged on all things having to do with emotional stuff. I don't think he even realizes he probably wasn't even 'in love' with #4, he was just horny for something different. Now that has probably cooled and with it what he (and she) thought was 'love' on his end of it.

On 6/17/2016 at 0:42 AM, Celia Rubenstein said:

I meant to add ... the idea that Meri is not entitled to be upset because she agreed with Kody courting Robyn doesn't work for me.  I don't think that just because Meri is following through with the tenets of her religion about there being other wives brought in means she forfeits her right to have feelings about the matter.  Especially when her husband handled it as badly as Kody did.  Just having to share your husband with yet another woman is enough of a strain, but Kody clearly played favorites in a way he had not done when Janelle and Christine entered the family.  Add to that the relatively lavish wedding and the ten day honeymoon they went on ... the other wives never got anything like that.  Kody picked out Robyn's wedding dress - then TOLD the other wives he'd done so.  He could have been much more considerate but he never seemed to worry about how any of his wives felt at all. I can't blame Meri or any of the others for feeling jealous and slighted.  

Meri was actually a lot more patient in expressing her feelings than I think most women could be.  But I guess she is used to dealing with a man who has the emotional maturity of a toddler after twenty years of being married to Kody. 

 Probably his take on it was well, you're all getting an upgrade in lifestyle because of #4 so suck it up or hey I have no reason, I'm just so great and you're lucky to be here

http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html

Celia is right about the childish thing, because most 2-3 year-olds are narcissistic and this is one of the earliest lessons some kids have to grasp, other people hurt when they fall down too, other people matter too, you have to take turns not just cut in front of everyone else, no, you can't be mean to the kid who is different cause you think it's fun, no you can't invite one kid to your party and not invite the brother or sister, and so on...basically the 'don't be a dick'  early lessons in developing boundaries of one's own and respecting those of others. I guess some people buy into the 'cult leader' crap because he drinks his own kool-aid, so convinced he is of his own coolness. This is why on the other thread I chose the other plyg guy from the other show, not saying he didn't have his faults, just that he didn't act like he thought he was so cool.  Wish they'd have a reverse plyg show on, with one woman and a few husbands, so we could see how that played out. I don't know, maybe some men would be all right with part-time and with having their space , maybe it's a different dynamic, it would be interesting to see.

Edited June 19, 2016 by BlackWidow
missed answering ppl I quoted had to scroll to find them

[mamey2422]

On June 9, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Alapaki said:

My only twinge of sympathy for Meri is that, from the backstory they showed me this season it really doesn't seem like she ever got a chance to form a true marriage relationship before Janelle was on the scene, especially because they were living with Janelle before Kody decided to "court" her.  I do think the dynamic is different between a first wife who now is faced with having others enter the picture, and the later-wives who are entering an existing marriage.

I actually got the opposite impression. I believe Meri and Kody were married for three years before Janelle joined the family. During this time Meri and Kody were inseparable - Meri has said they did everything together and she joined him on the road a lot since she worked part time. So I think Meri experienced a fairly traditional marriage with Kody that she didn't want to give up or compromise with Janelle. 

[VedaPierce]

On June 10, 2016 at 9:39 AM, RazzleberryPie said:

I personally know several married people who plan business trips or conferences to coincide with opportunities to meet up with their side pieces. The side pieces are all married, too. They do this several times a year. It's an old trick so you have a few legit excuses for overnight trips and wineing and dining hotel bills.

Isn't that how Vickie hooked up with Crooks from Real housewives of OC?

[VedaPierce]

On June 13, 2016 at 2:59 PM, MonicaM said:

Quite honestly, I think at this point if I were in Meri's shoes, I'd continue to ride the TLC money train until it ended.  I'd enjoy the trips to Alaska, Hawaii, etc. and do my best to ignore lovebirds Kody and Robyn.  I believe the day will come when at least Meri and Janelle will dump Kody for good, but since they're come this far, they might as well stay the course until the money runs out.  And it will run out, probably within a few months of the show's cancellation.  

I don't think janelle will ever dump Kody. She ain't goin ANYWHERE, as is evidenced by her constant defense of him - like when she actually defended him to Christine while Christine was discussing the rock building moment and how horrible he made Christine feel by ignoring her need. Can't STAND janelle!

[Coffee Girl]

Janelle grates on my nerves too, she wouldn't say crap if her mouth was full of it,  and Meri, with her constant throwing Christine under the bus whenever there is an issue going on such as where to put the beach umbrellas or the table set up for the Thanksgiving dinner, why is she so scared of ruffling his feathers, she is always saying " I don't like to get Kody mad", these marriages seem to be very dysfunctional.