S04.E12: A Roy Rogers in Franconia

[curbcrusher]

1 hour ago, Conan Troutman said:

The Paige story arc has been problematic from the beginning. The idea of raising a child as a typical, affluent, American teenager until well into adolescence, and then quickly submerging her into a ideological POV which is alien to her experience, is pretty ridiculous. Yes, two parents could inculcate a child into that life of espionage, but they better not start, all of a sudden, when the kid is 14. The way this has been storyboarded really guarantees a lot of "ugh" moments and dialogue.

I tend to agree with this. But it's not a matter of telling the kid that your parents are spies at the age of 5, it's a way of life that is probably best described as suspicious and wary of outsiders. I won't claim to know any illegals (American or Russian), but I am very close to some that have experience growing up in an environment where they lived overseas with "Official" cover.  Even in the 70's before stranger danger became a big thing for training kids, these kids were told that they needed to hold things close, like what kind of job dad had and if people were asking a lot of questions, to let mom and dad know. They never went to the same place the same way twice in a row. There was an awareness that there was danger our there and you were looking for it. Even today, all grown up and years away from living like that I know a guy that hardly ever goes the same way somewhere twice in a row and drives his wife crazy because he won't just go the most direct route. By the time the reveal is made ("Mommy and Daddy are spies"), it is ingrained that  you wouldn't go blabbing that to Pastor Groovyhair, and this is some serious adult shit. And if you do go off the reservation there would be hell to pay. Paige should be in boarding school in a Soviet client state about now ("Yes Pastor Tim, Paige had a great opportunity to go study in Poland. It's an immersion program, so she won't be able to write you, but we'll give you updates.") And that's my problem with the Paige storyline, I just don't see it as realistic based on people I know.

As to Pastor Groovyhair, I don't know if anyone else has said it before, but he reminds me of the villain in one the Dirty Harry movies from the 70's that kidnapped a bus load of kids and is on the receiving end of a "Do you feel lucky punk?"

Some 80's stuff that struck me as kind of odd. I remember 1983, and I had a "portable" 13 in TV as my main TV. It was huge probably about  24 inches across and 12 inches deep. When Paige and Elizabeth were watching TV it looked like they had a 19in on the Fireplace mantle, and I was thinking that is a very 2010's kind of TV placement, because 19in TVs were really big, and would have been 24in + deep, and that seems really deep for a mantle.

[Bannon]

26 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think that's necessarily a credible resolution, though. The show's done, imo, a good job of setting up a family that genuinely loves each other and also believably shown how appealing it would be to be in on the secret at the center of it. Paige did talk a lot about just wanting to get away from her crazy parents, she embraced her church group and shove that in their faces, but really she's too attracted to her parents' secret life to be in rebellious mode. They are doing a lot of things she dreamed of doing when she thought she was rebelling against them.

I genuinely loved my father. Nevertheless, it got to the point with his consistent dishonesty with me that I told him I didn't recognize his authority any longer (and he was a very physically imposing authority figure), and I was going to do what I wanted to do, and that he was going to have to kill me to stop me. We can have extraordinary anger with those we genuinely love, and what I see missing in the writing of Paige's character is the consistent, seething, anger of a child who gets lied to all the time. It'd be different if she had some reason to share her parents ideological devotion, but she doesn't.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Bannon

[SunnyBeBe]

Thank you, Curbcrusher!  I also thought that about that tv. Weren't those older television rather deep and how would they fit on a mantle?  IMO, putting the tv over the mantle is a rather recent fad that started with the flat screens which were more narrow in depth. I guess it's nit picky, but still.  

[Bannon]

10 minutes ago, curbcrusher said:

I tend to agree with this. But it's not a matter of telling the kid that your parents are spies at the age of 5, it's a way of life that is probably best described as suspicious and wary of outsiders. I won't claim to know any illegals (American or Russian), but I am very close to some that have experience growing up in an environment where they lived overseas with "Official" cover.  Even in the 70's before stranger danger became a big thing for training kids, these kids were told that they needed to hold things close, like what kind of job dad had and if people were asking a lot of questions, to let mom and dad know. They never went to the same place the same way twice in a row. There was an awareness that there was danger our there and you were looking for it. Even today, all grown up and years away from living like that I know a guy that hardly ever goes the same way somewhere twice in a row and drives his wife crazy because he won't just go the most direct route. By the time the reveal is made ("Mommy and Daddy are spies"), it is ingrained that  you wouldn't go blabbing that to Pastor Groovyhair, and this is some serious adult shit. And if you do go off the reservation there would be hell to pay. Paige should be in boarding school in a Soviet client state about now ("Yes Pastor Tim, Paige had a great opportunity to go study in Poland. It's an immersion program, so she won't be able to write you, but we'll give you updates.") And that's my problem with the Paige storyline, I just don't see it as realistic based on people I know.

Pretty much agree entirely with this. The story arc doesn't make any sense.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

I genuiinely loved my father. Nevertheless, it got to the point with his consistent dishonesty with me that I told him I didn't recognize his authority any longer (and he was a very physically imposing authority figure), and I was going to do what I wanted to do, and that he was going to have to kill me to stop me. We can have extraordinary anger with those we genuinely love, and what I see missing in the writing of Paige's character is the consistent, seething, anger of a child who gets lied to all the time. It'd be different if she had some reason to share her parents ideological devotion, but she doesn't.

I don't think you can just assume that because you felt one way with your father that Paige would feel the same way. Her parents don't lie to her all the time, they lie about a very specific thing that's central to their lives--one that they then told her the truth about when she was older despite great personal risk to themselves. Paige is dealing with that in her own way, but they've established things about her that would make her understand their reasons for it. That is, they're not just pathological liars, they're undercover for a grand reason. That reason doesn't mean much to her, but she has been established as specifically admiring making personal sacrifices for that type of reason (making the world better). That would give them authority in her eyes.

1 hour ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Weren't those older television rather deep and how would they fit on a mantle?  IMO, putting the tv over the mantle is a rather recent fad that started with the flat screens which were more narrow in depth. I guess it's nit picky, but still.

As odd as the placement is, I don't believe for a second that TV is that anachronistic (that's just too obvious to mess up) so it must fit. (I was actually on the set once and now wish I'd thought to check that!)

Quote

But it's not a matter of telling the kid that your parents are spies at the age of 5, it's a way of life that is probably best described as suspicious and wary of outsiders

 

In the Jennings case it seems the children were the outsiders.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

I don't think you can just assume that because you felt one way with your father that Paige would feel the same way. Her parents don't lie to her all the time, they lie about a very specific thing that's central to their lives--one that they then told her the truth about when she was older despite great personal risk to themselves. Paige is dealing with that in her own way, but they've established things about her that would make her understand their reasons for it. That is, they're not just pathological liars, they're undercover for a grand reason. That reason doesn't mean much to her, but she has been established as specifically admiring making personal sacrifices for that type of reason (making the world better). That would give them authority in her eyes.

I wasn't making that assumption. I was challenging your implication that genuinely love was mutually exclusive from seething anger. We aren't going to agree with the degree on E & P's dishonesty with Paige. I just don't find the story arc credibly written.

[Conan Troutman]

52 minutes ago, Dowel Jones said:

I have a feeling that now that William has been exposed, the trail will lead fairly quickly to Don, especially if some access to L4 is done.  From Don, the trail will lead, at least on paper, to "dead Patty" and her family, giving the FBI more suspects to tie together. 

Yeah, William will use Don's access code and they will want to know how he got that. Assuming William won't tell (otherwise the show is over), they have to question Don - who doesn't know anything, but he does have something to hide. The FBI will probably notice that and if they get Don to talk about the visit from Philip, Gabriel and Good-with-computers-in-her-50s-or-60s (and they probably will), they're going to get another sketch of Clarke. And probably one from Patty, too. Which either means they won't, Stan will continue be unable to connect the dots for another season or Philip's and Elizabeth' cover will be blown sooner rather than later.  

34 minutes ago, Bannon said:

In the early 80s, access codes would have been individualized, and tracked. They would know or strongly suspect Don's access code was used (actually the whole place, by the early 80's, should have been under constant video recording as well), and thus Don would have every nook and cranny, including his wife's social circle, closely examined. 

The writers pretty consistently ignore this stuff, however.

Well, the code itself will only be used once. So it doesn't really matter as far as getting this specific virus is concerned. But yeah, the FBI should learn about Patty and I think they will, one way or another. 

[La Tortuga]

7 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

It seems like they want to help her set themselves up.  When it comes to her, they have lost their minds. It's unfortunate. Perhaps, the plot will turn her around and we will see her REALLY turn into the spy that has their backs, but it wouldn't make sense, from what we have seen from her.

I hesitate to be critical of the writing on this show, because it's been so incredible, but I wonder if this Paige storyline seemed like a good idea, when they went there and then they got trapped.  It's just something that doesn't seem to work for me.  I've noticed that with some shows, there is a temptation to go somewhere with a storyline, but the real implications are not considered.  

You're not wrong about the process, but it's one they use intentionally. I remember reading an interview with one of the writers. The producers actually instructed them to write themselves into a corner and then see how they can get out of that corner. It's an exercise in storytelling ingenuity, I guess.

[RedHawk]

31 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Thank you, Curbcrusher!  I also thought that about that tv. Weren't those older television rather deep and how would they fit on a mantle?  IMO, putting the tv over the mantle is a rather recent fad that started with the flat screens which were more narrow in depth. I guess it's nit picky, but still.  

Yup, in this episode I finally became aware that the TV placement has always bothered me. I never saw anyone place a TV over a mantlepiece (much less sit it on one) until flat screens came in. What I thought was, that's such a bad placement, all the heat from the fireplace goes up to the TV. Also, it's too high, meaning everyone has to look way up to watch it. And yes, the back should have been too big to fit, and even small TVs were quite heavy back then. Everyone had a TV in a cabinet or on a stand or something similar it could sit on. For purposes of the show, I guess that's the best placement they could come up with, but it seems very anachronistic.

Edited June 2, 2016 by RedHawk

[madam magpie]

1 hour ago, hellmouse said:

Philip and Elizabeth are masters of improvisation. But Paige being their daughter complicates everything. They can't outright lie to her. Their most frequently stated fear is that she will hate them. What they could do is say "we will talk about this later tonight" and give themselves some time to figure out what to say. But that could irritate Paige, and they don't want to take that risk because they don't know what she might do. 

One thing I thought was interesting in that final scene in the kitchen is that the phone rings a few times before Paige answers it. Philip and Elizabeth are both so fully involved in the discussion with Paige that they don't go to answer the phone. Normally, one of them answers, and they do it fairly quickly. But this time it seemed like both of them felt the conversation with Paige was more important than the phone, which usually represents "work". 

But I do think it would benefit them to find some time to sit down with Paige and talk, uninterrupted, instead of these random tense exchanges. 

Agreed, but this requires them to be self-aware enough to do it. To me, Philip and Elizabeth look like they're really floundering. So much is out of their control, and their job demands that they be in control. Otherwise they or their kids or others they care about could die. It would be awesome if they could take a deep breath, sit down, talk to each other, create a plan, and then talk to Paige. But that seems so unlike them! And yet, these two can come up with a killer plan about how to do a spy mission. They talk it out, disagree, argue, and then make a decision. But they're not doing that with Paige, and I think it's because she's their kid. It's too intimate and emotional. They're struggling with their own limitations as they try to explain this big, scary thing to their daughter.

[AlliMo]

9 hours ago, blixie said:

She is an American teenager growing up in 1980's DC, and she is patently NOT a moron, the idea that she is some sheltered princess who needs to be threatened by a rape mugging before she really understands to be on alert for a rape mugging is absolutely unrealistic. Her utter inability at any point to be GRATEFUL for what her mother did, DESPITE her initial shock was absurd, and she has known about her parents job in show time for almost what 8 months...a year, she's known about her mother probably being a killer, and absolutely being a SOLDIER, it is not new information. Having said that it's not so much unrealistic as it is fucking annoying. I was more a Kimmie than a Paige, so get on the bus already gurl.

 

I don't think that Paige being traumatized and in shock from having seen her mother KILL ANOTHER HUMAN BEING necessarily means that she's ungrateful or naive. I think that it means she's a very young person with a functioning moral center who's trying very hard to process a whole lot of things in a very short period of time. I think she has every right to be bewildered and confrontational towards the parents who have repeatedly told her that a) they weren't going to lie to her anymore and b) that the work they were doing was peaceful and not at all dangerous. Frankly, I think it would be ridiculous and not at all believable if she was totally blase and accepting towards the entire thing.

Edited June 2, 2016 by AlliMo

[CarpeDiem54]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

You get that they are working with an emotional teenage girl right?  They have to be very, very, very, beyond careful with Paige.  Piss her off by pulling the "no back talk" attitude after all she's been through and knows?  She could storm right across the street and tell Stan everything in a teenage fit of anger.  Or she could let the resentment build about that, and the details about weapons to be used against her country could come to the forefront of her mind, and make her completely reevaluate the value of familial love being a reason to be a traitor not only to her country, but to people she cares for, the Pastors.

Never underestimate the passion and tantrums of a hormonal 15 year old. 

They DO have to treat her with kid gloves because she could destroy them with one phone call made in a pique of fury.

She never had before though, certainly not asking about specific operations.  I honestly don't think it occurred to either of them that she would even WANT to know.  This is all new ground for them, there is no manual or training for this stuff.

Ha.

Hence the need to send her to "boarding school".

[Umbelina]

True, and of course Liz and Phil are trained to deal with assets.  Things go wrong?  Kill them.  Lie, lie, and lie some more, like all spies do.  It quite different when you are dealing with your own child, one who has known you pretty intimately for 15 years.

I think it's completely natural that they are floundering a bit, and they are coping with a lot of emotions as well, emotions that would certainly never exist on the same level  with someone other than a child.  Paige suddenly starting to spy on her own?  I doubt they expected that, just like they didn't expect her to blab to the pastors.  They would never have done such a thing, even as children.  They are coping with something that they have personally never experienced, an American child's way of thinking.  Yes, they've watched and allowed many things, because they had no idea they would EVER have to tell Paige any of this.

If it were to all go smoothly?  I'd really side-eye the writers.

They aren't going to send her to boarding school Poland!  Her squeaky clean American birth and activities are what Center wants.  They will trust themselves to take care of Paige, and her training, rather than strangers.  I mean honestly, and no offense, but that's just ridiculous.

[AlliMo]

3 hours ago, stagmania said:

I suspect that the people who find Paige's reactions and personality unrealistic just don't know that many teenagers. Yes, some are mature, self-possessed and able to handle a lot. Some are very much the opposite and have a hard time wrapping their heads around the more complex parts of life, and there's a whole wide spectrum of personality and experience in between. I know plenty of kids like Paige, and find her characterization to be consistent and well drawn, even when she behaves in ways I don't believe I would have. 

I think a lot of people - most of us, probably - like to remember ourselves as being much more mature and intelligent as teenagers than we actually were.

[crashdown]

1 hour ago, hellmouse said:

I think you could add at least two more people to that list fo characters facing moral quandaries. Nina chose personal ethics - trying to help Baklanov - rather than continuing to do the bidding of her masters. Oleg revealed the biowarfare threat to Stan because he felt it was too dangerous for the Soviets to get the virus, even though it meant going against his own country.

Yes!  How could I have forgotten those two!  And really Martha herself could be added to that list.  Yes, she didn't have a lot of agency, but she always chose her loyalty to Clark over her loyalty to her country, even after she knew what was going on.  And that's interesting as well.

1 hour ago, curbcrusher said:

Some 80's stuff that struck me as kind of odd. I remember 1983, and I had a "portable" 13 in TV as my main TV. It was huge probably about  24 inches across and 12 inches deep. When Paige and Elizabeth were watching TV it looked like they had a 19in on the Fireplace mantle, and I was thinking that is a very 2010's kind of TV placement, because 19in TVs were really big, and would have been 24in + deep, and that seems really deep for a mantle.

I was in high school in 1983. and I'm pretty sure our main TV was a 19 inch and that we had two 13-inch black-and-whites, one in my mother's bedroom and one in the kitchen.  I agree: I never saw anyone put a TV on a mantle before flat screens came into vogue.  One other anachronism that I noticed last night was Henry's saying "sweet." I never heard anyone saying that more than ten or so years ago, I don't think: certainly, I never heard it in the 80s.

[jenrising]

My best friend when I was little had a tv on their mantle like that around the same, surrounded by books and speakers. I remember this vividly because we got in big trouble for climbing up there playing a game and broke a bunch of stuff.

[izabella]

What their tv should have been is a big, honking console television that sat on the floor.  The console tv's were encased in wood, so they would look like furniture.  They started out with dials, but the fancy new ones had push buttons to change the channels.  We had a big Zenith in our living room, and that thing lasted forever.  The last time my parents moved, my sister put the tv on Craigslist, and some guy bought it for $25 dollars to turn it into an aquarium or something.

Edited June 2, 2016 by izabella

[dramachick]

4 hours ago, stagmania said:

I suspect that the people who find Paige's reactions and personality unrealistic just don't know that many teenagers. Yes, some are mature, self-possessed and able to handle a lot. Some are very much the opposite and have a hard time wrapping their heads around the more complex parts of life, and there's a whole wide spectrum of personality and experience in between. I know plenty of kids like Paige, and find her characterization to be consistent and well drawn, even when she behaves in ways I don't believe I would have. 

I'm right there with you, and I really love this observation about the way Elizabeth feels about her hometown. It's part of the reason I don't have any trouble empathizing with her-she has very good reasons to believe in what she does. Her experiences have shaped her in ways that make a lot of sense to me, and even though she is ostensibly my "enemy", I've never viewed her that way. As @Umbelina said above, part of the whole idea of this show is that the "others" on the opposite side of a conflict like this are still people, with loved ones and beliefs they hold dear, the same as all of us. Their stories are just as important as those of the people on the winning side of history. 

People finding some aspects of the Paige character as unrealistic doesn't mean they don't know many teenagers.  They're just critical of the way this particular character is written sometimes.

Edited June 2, 2016 by dramachick

[jenrising]

1 hour ago, izabella said:

What their tv should have been is a big, honking console television that sat on the floor.  The console tv's were encased in wood, so they would look like furniture.  They started out with dials, but the fancy new ones had push buttons to change the channels.  We had a big Zenith in our living room, and that thing lasted forever.  The last time my parents moved, my sister put the tv on Craigslist, and some guy bought it for $25 dollars to turn it into an aquarium or something.

Ha! Loved those huge ridiculous things. My grandfather kept his until he died ten years ago. It stopped working some time in the 90s, but he just put the new television on top of it. 

[Mrs Shibbles]

5 hours ago, Tara Ariano said:

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

The Americans Spin Murder For Their Dumb Wiener Kid

When events force Elizabeth to admit to Paige that the downtown vagrant wasn't quite the first person she ever killed, Aderholt starts unraveling the mail robot mystery, and Oleg gets cold feet about both Tatiana and biological warfare.

Awesome NewsRadio reference! Nice catch.

 

I got food poisoning as a kid from a Roy Rogers restaurant in the early 80's .  I will never look at a roast beef sandwich the same again (gag)

[CarpeDiem54]

Quote

They aren't going to send her to boarding school Poland!  Her squeaky clean American birth and activities are what Center wants.  They will trust themselves to take care of Paige, and her training, rather than strangers.  I mean honestly, and no offense, but that's just ridiculous.

I know it's unrealistic to send her away, but I've never liked the character and miss the more adult centric spycraft storylines.  I can't stand teenage angst shows.  There's just too much Paige and her sidekicks, the Groovyhairs, for my liking.

[Umbelina]

For those with a crush on Oleg, or who just enjoy the character, I posted the link to this week's podcast in that thread.   Costa Ronin, "Oleg" is there!  Oh, and he sounds exactly the way he sounds on the show, and explains why Oleg gave the information to Stan.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Umbelina

[wonderwoman]

21 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Btw, Paige and Elizabeth were watching Grant and Celia on General Hospital. Grant was the Illegal character. What was Elizabeth not getting about that story? Grant defected because he fell in love with his fake wife. Since they didn't even say anything about this hilarious coincidence I wonder if they knew what they were showing...but what are the odds of them focusing on Grant himself? (Or Andre Chernin, as his name really was!)

My impression was that Elizabeth wasn't a regular GH viewer, so it may not have been clear in that episode that Grant was a spy. But, I did love Paige's line, "It's not logical, it's emotional." And meta is always fun. 

[scartact]

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

The thing that I find so fascinating about the show is how consistant the writing of the characters are.  I am not sure if it was the first or second season but at one point Elizabeth told Philip if they got caught Henry would be fine.  He would find his way but their was something fragile about Paige.  That is a good as any word to describe her even now.  There is just something fragile about her.  I think that 'something fragile' is off putting to some but I find it fascinating because it has the potential to end very badly and very bloody

I believe the episode your referring to was actually the second episode of the series! It's funny how Elizabeth's assessment of her children echoes back now as we see Paige show the ways she can be fragile, and while we haven't seen Henry react yet to anything, it'll be very interesting to see how much his response compares to Paige's response if we ever get the opportunity. I also want Henry to be more involved in the family dynamic too and I always feel kinda bad when he's shown behind to that Paige and their parents can confer with each other. I definitely picked up on those two slightly lingering shots at the beginning and I hope that those shots are significant in developing Henry's character.

In the meanwhile, Chekhov's computer! Actually, it's funny how many times we've all called things Chekhovian (a la Martha's ladysmith), but we've yet to find payoff.

3 hours ago, crashdown said:

I'm right there with you, but I think that the "Jennings family stuff" is really the point of the show--it's not something extraneous thrown into an action series as an afterthought to please a female demographic.  As someone said somewhere in this thread, the show is the story of Elizabeth and her changing concept of what her life's work, her ultimate purpose, really is.  She starts out passionately wanting to serve her country, and I think she'll end up just as passionately wanting to protect her family.  All these moments with the Jennings family--little ones where Elizabeth and Philip complain to each other about Henry's terrible perfume and big ones in which Paige grills them about their own moral choices and consequences--are in service to that journey.

Absolutely the show at its most basic is about the marriage and their family, and I think the show has done a great job in making me most invested in them and their respective journeys. This is also why I often have less issues with things like the Paige storyline and whether or not it's realistic. I'm not necessarily looking for realism, but believability within the context of what we know of the characters. This is part of why I also don't think the writers have written themselves into a corner with the Paige storyline because they're taking the time to explore the consequences of Paige learning the truth and I think it's had a very interesting function maybe not necessarily for Paige, but especially for Elizabeth (and Philip, to an extent, but definitely not as much a Liz).

Quote

It strikes me that the important theme of this season has been the struggle between one's personal ethics and serving the larger unit to which one belongs, and Paige is a big part of that (and an interesting part, because she has two "larger units" to weigh against her own ethics--her family, and the United States itself).  Elizabeth had to struggle with her personal feelings toward Young Hee; Philip had Martha; and William finally wanted to say that he could not in good conscience unleash a potential Armageddon-causing pathogen into the world.  Each of the characters came to his or her own decision about how to resolve that moral quandary, but the battle was very real and a little heartbreaking for all of them.  It's particularly fascinating with regard to Elizabeth, who seemingly never experienced a twinge of personal conflict with her larger duty before the Young Hee assignment.

Great call on the season 4 theme too! I find the thematic resonance most interesting for Elizabeth as well because she is the character who should be most challenged to locate where her ethics lie within the greater context of her service to the KGB, and I've absolutely loved that this season challenges her the most, compared to other seasons.

[AliShibaz]

18 hours ago, Darrenbrett said:

Also, the way Kerri purses her lips, nods, pauses... before answering Paige's questions, is just so golden. I just love it. There is so much going on in those few seconds. I would love a video montage of JUST those moments.

There were some other excellent acting techniques in this episode. I hope it's OK for me to post this here. Remember the scene where Tatiana told Oleg he could come to Africa with her? At the very end of that scene, her last line is something like, "I just hope I don't kill the entire population of the Eastern Seaboard." Then she quickly turns and walks away before Oleg can show any reaction. I thought that was an excellent acting technique because Oleg must have been horrified at the realization of just how dangerous the stuff she works on is. I strongly doubt (very extremely strongly) that he will want to go anywhere near her again after that. Also, I think that was what caused Oleg to get in touch with Stan. Oleg is scared to death to learn that Tat is working with stuff that is that bad - worse than many H-bombs all put together.

But, back to my thought about the acting. If she would have waited for a reaction from Oleg, she would have realized that something was very wrong and if she ever learns there was a leak about her work, she might well know it came from Oleg. Actually, it was not his fault. It was her fault for saying something so stupid. IMHO, she does not deserve to get that promotion if she can't keep her mouth shut about something so highly secretive. Shame on her. She is a terrible spy. (Is she really a spy?)

Edited June 3, 2016 by AliShibaz

[Umbelina]

21 minutes ago, CarpeDiem54 said:

I know it's unrealistic to send her away, but I've never liked the character and miss the more adult centric spycraft storylines.  I can't stand teenage angst shows.  There's just too much Paige and her sidekicks, the Groovyhairs, for my liking.

Well, it's a show about a family, several families really, but specifically a story about a family with embedded spies.  So, kids are part of that, always have been, and always will be.  This isn't Alias, and though I loved Alias and still do, completely different shows.

[shura]

9 hours ago, hellmouse said:

I think that apartment was meant to show that they are from better means. It was large, spacious, well appointed, with luxurious items like the fresh flowers and crystal. It was just one room in what is certainly a larger apartment, whereas in a communal apartment, that room would have housed a family. They live in the city, so it would make sense they are in an apartment. It's probably in a nice section of Moscow.

And yet, if I remember correctly, that apartment was so freaking gray it looked almost monochromatic. No wonder William is not enthused over the prospect of going back to Russia. Also explains why P&E, as well as RedHawk's Russian teacher, bought the first colorful crap they saw in the wallpaper department as soon as they got to the US - they were hungry for color, ANY color.

6 hours ago, RedHawk said:

Mail Robot and Agent Aderholt! They should get a spin-off series.

Wait, didn't Joey Tribbiani do that already?

9 hours ago, Dev F said:

On another topic, I'm definitely not on board with the Paige hatred here. In fact, I'm pretty baffled by the argument that it's implausible or out of character for Paige to be so thrown by her mother's actions. 

Speaking for myself, my "Paige hatred" (which is really more of a periodic annoyance) has nothing to do with her acting implausible or out of character. It just looks to me that she disrespects her parents when she goes off and demands they tell her things, and then cuts them off to announce that she deems their answers unsatisfactory. I absolutely understand why she does that, I find it realistic, but I don't like it. I've seen posters here say that they deserve it, that Paige has every right to behave this way, and I'm sure Paige shares that opinion. But to me this looks like she just assumes that her opinion is right without checking if it's true or considering any other viewpoints, and based on that she demands they all do what she wants no matter what they themselves want or feel is right. This kind of disrespect to others' opinions irritates me in real life, and it irritates me in Paige, too.

[wonderwoman]

20 hours ago, Knuckles said:

after remembering how terrible that scene was when Elizabeth killed that very brave woman..to see her son be so cavalier about her death was shocking.

While there was plenty of subtext to mine in that scene, I didn't find it shocking, and I didn't think her son was cavalier. As he said, she was 87 and had been ill, so for him, there was no reason to suspect anything untoward. 

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, Bannon said:

I wasn't making that assumption. I was challenging your implication that genuinely love was mutually exclusive from seething anger. We aren't going to agree with the degree on E & P's dishonesty with Paige. I just don't find the story arc credibly written.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that. Of course the two can exist at the same time. I'm challenging the idea that seething anger should be Paige's main emotion here. Paige's anger might not look like anger to someone else.

 

1 hour ago, crashdown said:

I never heard anyone saying that more than ten or so years ago, I don't think: certainly, I never heard it in the 80s.

It sounds wrong to me too in 1983 but it was around more than 10 years ago I think.

6 minutes ago, scartact said:

This is part of why I also don't think the writers have written themselves into a corner with the Paige storyline because they're taking the time to explore the consequences of Paige learning the truth and I think it's had a very interesting function maybe not necessarily for Paige, but especially for Elizabeth (and Philip, to an extent, but definitely not as much a Liz).

Yeah, I honestly can't see how the show would have gone forward given what it's focused on without telling Paige and possibly Henry too. One of their inspirations was "the talk" that CIA kids get. Paige finding out her parents aren't who they say they are is just an extreme version of all parents and kids. Paige just keeps going through different phases in how she feels about this. It's like a grieving process. Plus being young I suspect time moves more slowly to her so things that happened months ago seem like a decade before.

7 minutes ago, shura said:

This kind of disrespect to others' opinions irritates me in real life, and it irritates me in Paige, too.

And I think the show's definitely intended her to come across that way. When she started going to church she lectured her parents even on stuff that they would know better than she did and they were irritated too! There are definitely a lot of scenes with her where she's asking questions but not actually listening for answers so much as arguing back immediately.

[crashdown]

11 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

It sounds wrong to me too in 1983 but it was around more than 10 years ago I think.

Not that this is definitive, but the earliest usage citation in the online slang dictionary was from 2007.  That's about how I remember it, too--I only start noticing words like that when TV writers start using them in dialogue.  (Yeah, that says a lot of how little I get out and about in the actual world!)

[Bannon]

30 minutes ago, shura said:

And yet, if I remember correctly, that apartment was so freaking gray it looked almost monochromatic. No wonder William is not enthused over the prospect of going back to Russia. Also explains why P&E, as well as RedHawk's Russian teacher, bought the first colorful crap they saw in the wallpaper department as soon as they got to the US - they were hungry for color, ANY color.

Wait, didn't Joey Tribbiani do that already?

Speaking for myself, my "Paige hatred" (which is really more of a periodic annoyance) has nothing to do with her acting implausible or out of character. It just looks to me that she disrespects her parents when she goes off and demands they tell her things, and then cuts them off to announce that she deems their answers unsatisfactory. I absolutely understand why she does that, I find it realistic, but I don't like it. I've seen posters here say that they deserve it, that Paige has every right to behave this way, and I'm sure Paige shares that opinion. But to me this looks like she just assumes that her opinion is right without checking if it's true or considering any other viewpoints, and based on that she demands they all do what she wants no matter what they themselves want or feel is right. This kind of disrespect to others' opinions irritates me in real life, and it irritates me in Paige, too.

Personally, if any human being on earth puts me in a position where I might face life in solitary, they better hope like hell that all I do is disrespect them.

Regardless of ideological viewpoint, E & P are doing unspeakably hideous things to their child. They really deserve no respect at all, no matter how many would be rapists' throats they cut. 

[RedHawk]

Quote

 

   7 HOURS AGO,  REDHAWK SAID: 

Mail Robot and Agent Aderholt! They should get a spin-off series.

 

 

41 minutes ago, shura said:

Wait, didn't Joey Tribbiani do that already?

I knew it seemed familiar! Yes, he got a TV show were the other character was a robot, I think.

[JennyMominFL]

3 hours ago, crashdown said:

Yes!  How could I have forgotten those two!  And really Martha herself could be added to that list.  Yes, she didn't have a lot of agency, but she always chose her loyalty to Clark over her loyalty to her country, even after she knew what was going on.  And that's interesting as well.

I was in high school in 1983. and I'm pretty sure our main TV was a 19 inch and that we had two 13-inch black-and-whites, one in my mother's bedroom and one in the kitchen.  I agree: I never saw anyone put a TV on a mantle before flat screens came into vogue.  One other anachronism that I noticed last night was Henry's saying "sweet." I never heard anyone saying that more than ten or so years ago, I don't think: certainly, I never heard it in the 80s.

 

I heard sweet for the first time in 88. I was in the Marines and had a boyfriend from either Wisconsin or MInnesotta and he said it a lot. I remember it very clearly because I thought it was weird. I think it went from a regional word to a national one.

[shura]

22 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Personally, if any human being on earth puts me in a position where I might face life in solitary, they better hope like hell that all I do is disrespect them.

Regardless of ideological viewpoint, E & P are doing unspeakably hideous things to their child. They really deserve no respect at all, no matter how many would be rapists' throats they cut. 

I would argue that P&E themselves were put in a position to put Paige in her current position. They had a choice, could have refused and faced the consequences? So does Paige - she doesn't have to obey her parents and face, as you say, life in solitary, she can go to Stan. And it's quite possible (although not certain) that the consequences for Paige might be the same as they would have been if P&E had chosen to defy the KGB on this anyway - loss of her way of life and her family. Their unspeakably hideous things they are doing to her are what then - not making the choice that would, for all they know, have resulted in the same exact position for her? I am not going to disrespect them for that.

[J-Man]

OK, maybe I haven't been paying close enough attention, but I'm somewhat confused about William. They kept making references to Fort Detrick, which is an actual Army base in Frederick, MD (so, within commuting distance of the DC area). But does William actually work THERE, or is he working for a contractor in some other location? All this time I assumed he was an Army employee and working at the Fort itself, but in this episode they made it clear there were a number of privately-owned labs that had been contracted to do some work.

Also, the last time we saw Mrs. Groovyhair, wasn't she like ten months pregnant (or at least she looked like she was.) So is she ever gonna have a little Groovyhair?

[Umbelina]

27 minutes ago, J-Man said:

OK, maybe I haven't been paying close enough attention, but I'm somewhat confused about William. They kept making references to Fort Detrick, which is an actual Army base in Frederick, MD (so, within commuting distance of the DC area). But does William actually work THERE, or is he working for a contractor in some other location? All this time I assumed he was an Army employee and working at the Fort itself, but in this episode they made it clear there were a number of privately-owned labs that had been contracted to do some work.

Also, the last time we saw Mrs. Groovyhair, wasn't she like ten months pregnant (or at least she looked like she was.) So is she ever gonna have a little Groovyhair?

It's a contracted site for Fort Detrick I think.  The main work is being done there, but they contract out some stuff.

[Dowel Jones]

6 hours ago, Bannon said:

They might just assume he stole the code any number of ways rather than looking for other outsiders working someone else.

That's quite possible, too.  I'm thinking more along the lines of Agent Aderholt, who actually pursues a line of inquiry.

[RimaTheBirdGirl]

6 hours ago, Pickles said:

Sorry to be annoying. I love this show, but have only started watching this season. I need to go back and start at the beginning, but can someone briefly explain what happened with the old lady at the copy center and why she was killed.

Pickles, you must watch that episode.  The "old lady" is played by Lois Smith, a magnificent actress.  The character is an extraordinary (and ordinary) human being, and Elizabeth responds to her, and kills her.  At one point, when Elizabeth justifies murdering the old lady to the old lady, the Lois Smith character says something like, "That's what evil people say to justify what they do."  And those words pierce Elizabeth. 

[Pickles]

9 minutes ago, RimaTheBirdGirl said:

Pickles, you must watch that episode.  The "old lady" is played by Lois Smith, a magnificent actress.  The character is an extraordinary (and ordinary) human being, and Elizabeth responds to her, and kills her.  At one point, when Elizabeth justifies murdering the old lady to the old lady, the Lois Smith character says something like, "That's what evil people say to justify what they do."  And those words pierce Elizabeth. 

I will definitely watch! Thanks so much to everyone who responded to my question. This show is so riveting.

[snarktini]

2 hours ago, RedHawk said:

2 hours ago, shura said:

Wait, didn't Joey Tribbiani do that already?

I knew it seemed familiar! Yes, he got a TV show were the other character was a robot, I think.

Yep. Mac and C.H.E.E.S.E. :)

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, shura said:

I would argue that P&E themselves were put in a position to put Paige in her current position. They had a choice, could have refused and faced the consequences? So does Paige - she doesn't have to obey her parents and face, as you say, life in solitary, she can go to Stan. And it's quite possible (although not certain) that the consequences for Paige might be the same as they would have been if P&E had chosen to defy the KGB on this anyway - loss of her way of life and her family. Their unspeakably hideous things they are doing to her are what then - not making the choice that would, for all they know, have resulted in the same exact position for her? I am not going to disrespect them for that.

I don't give 15 or 16 year olds the same ethical responsibilities as the parents of 15 and 16 year olds.  E & P, when asked to bring Paige into their criminal conspiracy, which very shortly will expose their child, who they profess to love, to the very real chance of life without parole in solitary confinement (which really is a form of torture) had a choice. Adhere to their political loyalty, or do what is best for the human being they created. They had the ability to call the best criminal defense attorney in D.C., tell that attorney that they were illegal KGB agents, hire him, and tell him to call the Attorney General of the United States, to propose the following; a full debriefing, in return for new identities in a place of E & P's choosing , and a sum of cash to be negotiated. There were KGB Agents who defected. E & P could have been one of them, to avoid exposing Paige to the dangers of being in such a criminal conspiracy, or the dangers in refusing to cooperate with the KGB. They chose their political loyalties. Paige owes no respect to adults who made that choice.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Bannon
add sentence

[kokapetl]

Philip and Elizabeth haven't revealed any of their actions or plans to Paige. Is she actually part of a conspiracy?

[Umbelina]

No, and we had this same conversation about defecting before, so I don't want to revisit it.  I'd just copy paste previous posts and that seems pointless.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Umbelina

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Philip and Elizabeth haven't revealed any of their actions or plans to Paige. Is she actually part of a conspiracy?

Yes. They have revealed their criminal activities to Paige, and are now instructing her to report to them the actions and behavior of the Pastor, along with instructing her as to how to best manipulate him, in order to keep him from calling law enforcement, thus allowing them to continue their criminal activities. Paige is up to her neck in it, and is exposed to spending the rest of her life in solitary.

[kokapetl]

Paige and Pastor Tim don't know what Philip and Elizabeth are actually up to, and Paige ingratiating herself with Pastor Tim isn't a crime. 

Edited June 3, 2016 by Kokapetl

[Bannon]

14 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Paige and Pastor Tim don't know what Philip and Elizabeth are actually up to, and Paige ingratiating herself with Pastor Tim isn't a crime. 

Paige knows that her parents are involved in criminal activity. They told her that. They further told her to stay close to the Pastor, so as to better allow manipulation of him, so he doesn't contact law enforcement. Paige is breaking the law, by being party to a criminal conspiracy. 

[AliShibaz]

16 hours ago, Dev F said:

On another topic, I'm definitely not on board with the Paige hatred here. In fact, I'm pretty baffled by the argument that it's implausible or out of character for Paige to be so thrown by her mother's actions. My upbringing was similar to Paige's -- I grew up sheltered in the suburbs in the 1980s -- and I would absolutely have been just as freaked out if I saw my mom stab someone to death in front me. Especially if she was so blase about it afterward. The fact that we've seen Philip and Elizabeth kill people so often it's become routine doesn't mean that Paige is going to find it a straightforward experience.

I've been fairly vocal in my criticism of the Paige character. But after thinking it over, I now see most of the problem (or most of the fault) rests with her parents.

When Paige was pushing and pushing and pushing for answers near the end of this episode, it seems to me that it would have been pretty easy for P&E to lay down the law and tell her, "We're not lying to you. But that doesn't mean we have to answer all your questions. Don't you understand that it's safer for you you not to know certain things? Don't you know how terrible it would be if your mother allowed you to get raped? Do you have any idea just how traumatizing it would be for you had you been raped? Do you realize that trauma would stay with your for the rest of your life? So, you need to knock off all the questions. We are not going to answer those questions. We may discuss things with you from time to time. But they will be things that we want to discuss and they will be at our discretion. Do you understand that?

If  you want to know all the details of our work, we can arrange for you to join our organization. You will have to travel to Russia for 5 years and be trained in the Russian language as well as in our work which includes things like self-defense. So, you think that over Paige and if you decide you want to join our org, then we will take it to the next step. But in the meantime, I think you owe your mother a very big thank you and I'm quite disappointed that you have never thanked her for preventing you from serious harm. Please think that over."

In conclusion, Paige is doing what every teenager does. She is pushing her limits with her parents to see how far she can go. The problem largely rests with her parents because they take such a wishy-washy approach to answer her questions. The approach they take is just terrible and so, I'm thinking that much of the "Paige hate" is really the fault of her parents for not handling her questions in a way that would make the boundaries more clear.

Edited June 3, 2016 by AliShibaz

[SlackerInc]

10 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Good point that if it was an individual code it would of course go back to him. 

I agree. That code is definitely going to be traced back to Don specifically, and Don is going to end up going to prison in disgrace (even if he convinces them of what really happened, I've got to think leaving strangers in his office is a major foul in and of itself). So Elizabeth ("Patty") will have ultimately completely destroyed that family's life, without achieving anything except another coup for Stan.

9 hours ago, La Tortuga said:

You're not wrong about the process, but it's one they use intentionally. I remember reading an interview with one of the writers. The producers actually instructed them to write themselves into a corner and then see how they can get out of that corner. It's an exercise in storytelling ingenuity, I guess.

I remember that interview, which was with both of the showrunners, and you're forgetting a key part of it.  They said they have gotten tons of great advice from John Landgraf, president of the network (FX).  But one thing he told them was that they should just, as you put it, "write themselves into a corner and then see how they can get out of that corner".  And they said they kind of just looked at him in horror, because "we could never operate that way".  They do not feel comfortable, at all, with sort of jumping with no net.  They've got to have everything figured out before they even get into the corner.

The interesting thing there is that the interview in question is not the first time I've heard this philosophy discussed.  That would be an interview a couple years earlier with Vince Gilligan, who said that is totally how the writers' room for Breaking Bad operated.  For instance, in the fifth season premiere "Live Free or Die", they put the

Spoiler

machine gun in the trunk

 without having any earthly clue as to what the story with it was going to be.  But at that point they committed themselves to coming up with one.  :)

6 hours ago, wonderwoman said:

While there was plenty of subtext to mine in that scene, I didn't find it shocking, and I didn't think her son was cavalier. As he said, she was 87 and had been ill, so for him, there was no reason to suspect anything untoward. 

Right.  I remember when my 92 year old grandfather died.  He was found sitting in his chair, looking asleep (he often dozed off there), but his heart had simply stopped.  And he wasn't even having health problems: he wasn't even on any medication, right up to the day he died.  But he was 92.  We were sad, but we got over it pretty fast, a lot faster than you would if someone 52 died.  He had a good run, you know?  87's not much younger than 92, and in her case she had a heart condition.

[Ina123]

4 hours ago, AliShibaz said:

I've been fairly vocal in my criticism of the Paige character. But after thinking it over, I now see most of the problem (or most of the fault) rests with her parents.

When Paige was pushing and pushing and pushing for answers near the end of this episode, it seems to me that it would have been pretty easy for P&E to lay down the law and tell her, "We're not lying to you. But that doesn't mean we have to answer all your questions. Don't you understand that it's safer for you you not to know certain things? Don't you know how terrible it would be if your mother allowed you to get raped? Do you have any idea just how traumatizing it would be for you had you been raped? Do you realize that trauma would stay with your for the rest of your life? So, you need to knock off all the questions. We are not going to answer those questions. We may discuss things with you from time to time. But they will be things that we want to discuss and they will be at our discretion. Do you understand that?

If  you want to know all the details of our work, we can arrange for you to join our organization. You will have to travel to Russia for 5 years and be trained in the Russian language as well as in our work which includes things like self-defense. So, you think that over Paige and if you decide you want to join our org, then we will take it to the next step. But in the meantime, I think you owe your mother a very big thank you and I'm quite disappointed that you have never thanked her for preventing you from serious harm. Please think that over."

In conclusion, Paige is doing what every teenager does. She is pushing her limits with her parents to see how far she can go. The problem largely rests with her parents because they take such a wishy-washy approach to answer her questions. The approach they take is just terrible and so, I'm thinking that much of the "Paige hate" is really the fault of her parents for not handling her questions in a way that would make the boundaries more clear.

Exactly. For as good as spies as they are  and with their ability to lie at their job, P and E were horrible at lying to their daughter. Geeze. Sit her down and tell her that it just isn't any of her business. She's a 15 year old kid. Tell her they work in the government,  the IRS, the state department or even CIA. They could even work for the Social Security Administration and say they track down people who lie on disability claims or even yet they are private investigators for the Department of Justice. Anything but "hey, kid, we're Russian spies".

As far as not reporting the death of the mugger E could say that clearly it was self defense and the people they work for will take care of it to maintain her cover. They get home and E immediately makes a phone call and some illegal comes over and poses as some kind of government employee, interviews Paige and says it will be taken care of.

Yeah, it's elaborate but we've seen more complicated plans on this show.

Henry. Henry is going to hit puberty. My guess is he will come back next season with a deeper voice and crazy hormones. Maybe he'll start showing some rebellion. Yes, he loves his family, but we haven't really seen an emotional and angry Henry yet.

I'm not sure what we can talk about as far as previews go, but either Gabriel is telling P and E that their job is over or his is. Since we saw him having a health problem I would guess he's saying he's leaving. He says something like, "it wasn't meant to be forever", and P and E have astonished looks.

ETA: Personally, I'd like to see the reactions of the whole family as they sit on the couch watching the Berlin Wall come down in '89. It would be so interesting.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Ina123
additional thoughts

[shura]

8 hours ago, Bannon said:

Paige owes no respect to adults who made that choice.

That's fine. My issue is with her behavior though, not with her underlying feelings and whether she is justified in having them. I just don't enjoy seeing a person act like she's a damn princess and others are her peasants who owe her immediate and complete answers to whatever she decides she wants to know. Let's have her kick Philip in the nuts, too, and then start wondering why people are not enjoying this given that she owes him no respect.

5 hours ago, AliShibaz said:

The problem largely rests with her parents because they take such a wishy-washy approach to answer her questions. The approach they take is just terrible and so, I'm thinking that much of the "Paige hate" is really the fault of her parents for not handling her questions in a way that would make the boundaries more clear.

Nah, I have a separate "Paige's parents hate" for that. Paige annoys me with what she does, regardless of what others do about it.

Edited June 3, 2016 by shura
too many apostrophies