S04.E12: A Roy Rogers in Franconia

[sunsheyen]

When Paige asked if they trusted her, the simple answer should have been "No." Trusting you got us ragey video making pregnant Alice. I have a hard time believing that even with the Americanness of how they are raising Paige and Henry, that Elizabeth would tolerate this demanding, questioning grown folks' phone conversations, smart mouth behavior. There is no way an adult is here to answer to Paige's ass. 

I do not like this character nor the way they have written her parents' interactions with her. 

[sistermagpie]

19 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

I'd never have turned any of them in as a teenager, not even for being Russian spies. So I have no trouble understanding why Paige doesn't go to Stan. I was baffled that she blabbed to the Groovyhairs.

Also, going to Stan and asking for Witness Protection (which would not be needed--this isn't the mob. The KGB doesn't come after kids who rat on their parents) isn't just going to Stan and asking for Witness Protection. It's destroying your entire life. There's no obvious place for these kids to go if they don't have parents. Even the few places that are there aren't something they'd want to do.

So I disagree (not with your comment but elsewhere) that it's in any way strange for Paige to cover up for them or not just walk away. Most of what people do on this show comes from an emotional place and this is a close family. Plus Paige has always wanted that closeness with her parents. All the more reason that she'd actually want to find a way to be involved. Right now she thinks she has--she's protecting the family, not working for Communism. Not so different from Martha. Nobody's ever once tried to sell Paige on the idea that she has any loyalty owed to Russia or the Cause. They haven't talked about that with her at all. Frankly, if Elizabeth's mother had acted against the State I think she would have protected her too. She hasn't really worked out just how her devotion to the cause and love of her mother tie together.

19 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

let alone that Center would order them to have children. 

Elizabeth did know this when she left for American--I assume she knew it when she met Philip. He brings up the subject the night they arrive.

19 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She's trying to find her way.  She does seem more naive than some teenagers, but that is probably because Philip and Elizabeth have always given her a safe place (from her view) and yeah, Falls Church is pretty upper-middle class and a very safe area. 

Also I think it's her personality--Elizabeth may have felt equally safe growing up in Falls Church. She has a trust of authority and the system. Henry, by contrast, obviously is more suspicious and Philip might have been as well. P&E are more on the lookout because they didn't grow up safe, but that's also something that fits Paige's personality. For instance, I know I would have immediately been afraid of those guys asking for cigarettes etc. and seen them as attackers and I was raised in a similar setting to Paige--but I think I might be more anxious in general than some people as well.

Basically just saying I think it fits with Paige's personality that she's trusting even beyond what any other girl in her place would be. Part of what was so painful about Elizabeth when she was raped was that she was raped by someone she was supposed to be able to trust.

19 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Twice now we've had lingering camera shots of his face after his parents shuffle Paige off somewhere.  After hockey, and last night when the left to "see how Paige is."  I don't think the directors would include those shots just to fuck with us.  Also, Chekhov's computer is a given.

I think those shots of Henry looking after the three of them are hugely important. He's waking up and it makes sense. I don't know what he imagines yet, but then, neither did Paige when it happened to her. He's just definitely sensing some bond between his parents and Paige that doesn't include him and seems to be about something, which is enough. Though personally I think the computer is there first as a symbol of the future--we've now seen all the Jennings except Elizabeth playing the videogames and Philip started out against them. It's a real sign that computers are becoming standard. I think computing will possibly come into it and they got that thing for that reason, probably something to do with Henry, but I think it is just a computer.

[teddysmom]

Quote

 

"OK, we've been lying our a$$ off to you for years, but it's all better now! We're involved in a criminal conspiracy that in a couple years that can get you life in solitary confinement, if you choose to stay quiet about our real identities. This criminal conspiracy is pursued out of idelogical devotion that you have no reason to have any emotional or rational atttachment to, but, hey, don't dwell on that! We're your parents who have lied to you all your life, and will continue to lie to you when we see the need, to pursue ideological ends that you have no commitment to! Want some hot cocoa?!"

An entirely rational response by Paige would be to run away from these two creeps. Whether she would sell them out for cash would depend on whether she can be as cold blooded as her mother. 

 

This is the struggle of the viewer when watching these types of shows, this one, Breaking Bad, Sopranos, etc.  The main characters are bad people but we kinda root for them and then are conflicted when it dawns on us that what they are doing is majorly fucked up. 

I just watched the episode from S1 or 2 after they stole the propeller plans and then the Russians use it on the wrong class of submarine and don't test it and the sub sinks because the captain pushed it too hard and they're all blaming the Americans for being monsters. I was like "excuse me, don't steal plans and if you're gonna steal plans, know what the fuck you're doing". 

I've been thinking about the end of this series and wonder if Phillip and Elizabeth will make it out alive, or if E takes a bullet to save Phillip so he can get the kids away from this nightmare.  America has it's faults, but  these two are fighting for people that don't give two shits about them. The USSR spouted all this  equality bullshit while people higher up in the government take everything while its citizens suffered, and were imprisoned for speaking out.  Really want to die for this cause?  Gorky Park is a great book that explains how corrupt this government was back in that period. Not that it still isn't, Mr. Putin. 

[Bannon]

15 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I completely disagree that the FBI is incompetent, or more incompetent than the KGB.  We see both agencies making human mistakes.  These people aren't robots or fictional superspies, this isn't The Borne Identity.  It is very real, well, except for the fast forwarding of plots and cases for action sequences for TV, and the Jennings doing B&E, hand offs, etc.  Although the hand offs between embedded spies seem real, and are justified, because their identity would be protected even from most of Arkady's crew, possibly from Arkady himself.  Compartmentalizing is part of the deal.

Frankly, one of the worst aspects of the show to me IS that it is the Bourne Identity, right down to Killizabeth and Phillip Bourne killin' and karate choppin' their way through Washington D.C.. And the FBI has been shown to be more incompetent than the KGB. In the season 1 finale (which almost caused me to quit the show), they could not even execute a simple stake out, despite being aware that the target was of the highest possible value. The CIA can't even figure out that the head of their Afghan group, after having his identity quite plainly blown, needs to have his home and person, including brief case, regularly swept for listening devices. The FBI can't figue out that after the bug in the pen was discovered, every centimeter of equipment in the office, including the robot, needs to be swept. Ugh.

This simply isn't how intelligence disasters happened. They happened when some high official in the FBI or CIA, like a Hanssen or Ames, who had great ability to protect themselves, walked in to a Soviet Embassy or Consulate, and sold out for cash. Instead, in this show we have too frequently had E & P Jason Bourning their way through life. Obviously, this hasn't been universal problem. The Martha operation in many ways has been the heart of the show, and with the exception of the early on murder of Stan's partner, it was exceptionally well done, for several seasons. We would have been better served with more of that stuff, in tone.

[hellmouse]

50 minutes ago, izabella said:

I had a moment like that, too, but then I remembered all their spy stuff is in the basement laundry room behind a hidden and locked compartment door.

They do keep their special radio in the bedroom, the one that Philip uses to listen to the BBC. It opens up to let them get their coded messages. Maybe Henry will find it and ask questions about it. Of course, he'd have to go in their bedroom to do that, which he has said they're not supposed to do. 

[Umbelina]

I don't think of them as "bad" though.  I know our CIA did many horrible things, and probably continues to do so.  It's pretty easy for me to drop the ideology where spies are concerned, and appreciate them all (both sides) as people.

To me, this isn't about rah rah USA!   It's about watching people who believe in something, fighting for their country, on both sides.  I can understand that, and relate to all of them as pawns in rich people's games.  There was plenty of murder, stealing, coercion, blackmail, and ugly shit on all sides.  This is the story about the human side of those people.  I don't feel bad for rooting for them, or for rooting for Stan either.  The fact that this is all for nothing, because we know who won (for now anyway) simply makes the Jennings more sympathetic to me.  They gave their lives for a dying and diseased cause.  Many former USA agents have lost their delusions about "good and bad" as well.

Spies are pawns.  They generally start out as idealistic and feel strongly that they are fighting for the right side.  As they age though, they know more.

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

This is the struggle of the viewer when watching these types of shows, this one, Breaking Bad, Sopranos, etc.  The main characters are bad people but we kinda root for them and then are conflicted when it dawns on us that what they are doing is majorly fucked up. 

I just watched the episode from S1 or 2 after they stole the propeller plans and then the Russians use it on the wrong class of submarine and don't test it and the sub sinks because the captain pushed it too hard and they're all blaming the Americans for being monsters. I was like "excuse me, don't steal plans and if you're gonna steal plans, know what the fuck you're doing". 

I've been thinking about the end of this series and wonder if Phillip and Elizabeth will make it out alive, or if E takes a bullet to save Phillip so he can get the kids away from this nightmare.  America has it's faults, but  these two are fighting for people that don't give two shits about them. The USSR spouted all this  equality bullshit while people higher up in the government take everything while its citizens suffered, and were imprisoned for speaking out.  Really want to die for this cause?  Gorky Park is a great book that explains how corrupt this government was back in that period. Not that it still isn't, Mr. Putin. 

I liked Breaking Bad and the Sopranos better than this show, and it wasn't because I ever rooted for Walter or Tony. They were just better written, in my view. I tend to like the shows where the protagonists are doing awful things, and the world would be made better if they were caught. I just want them to be caught in an interesting fashion.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

The Americans Spin Murder For Their Dumb Wiener Kid

When events force Elizabeth to admit to Paige that the downtown vagrant wasn't quite the first person she ever killed, Aderholt starts unraveling the mail robot mystery, and Oleg gets cold feet about both Tatiana and biological warfare.

[Umbelina]

It was Elizabeth.  The lady was embalmed, I seriously doubt any traces of her overdose of heart meds would show up, and even if it did?  She was 87, she could have decided to end things herself.  In other words, no proof of anything.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Umbelina

[teddysmom]

Quote

I liked Breaking Bad and the Sopranos better than this show, and it wasn't because I ever rooted for Walter or Tony. They were just better written, in my view. I tend to like the shows where the protagonists are doing awful things, and the world would be made better if they were caught. I just want them to be caught in an interesting fashion.

Agree Breaking Bad & Sopranos were better written.  The Americans is a great show, but they've had problems because of the inclusion of the kids in the plots.   I know Joe Weisberg is former CIA, I wonder if actual illegals had kids to make their cover more believable. Not all married people have kids. And this deal with the Centre wanting the illegals to get the kids queued up to join the CIA or something?  Isn't it easier to turn an agent than try to convince a young kid to be a spy for another country?  Except for Jared, and we all know how well that ended for everyone. 

[Ina123]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I don't think of them as "bad" though.  I know our CIA did many horrible things, and probably continues to do so.  It's pretty easy for me to drop the ideology where spies are concerned, and appreciate them all (both sides) as people.

 

Yes, the premise is the people and I get that. I'm even enjoying that, the characters and predicaments. But they are bad and they are in my country so I'm rooting for the US.

I disagree with most everyone about Henry. I wouldn't be surprised if Henry betrays them in the end. Henry is very American and he sees Stan as his friend. Paige was becoming "for the underdog" from the beginning, thus, her instant enchantment with the church group.

The house. Maybe something did  caused them to change a little this season but I just saw an article less than a week ago that said they are being forced out of their sound stage in Brooklyn(?), I think. Something about the EPA and  Superfund cleanup is causing the building to be taken by eminent domain. I think it's not settled yet and there may be a battle over it but, if so, they'll have to be really good at recreating everything so that eagle eyed viewers don't notice.

[SunnyBeBe]

Yes, it was Elizabeth and I still can't help but wonder if that lady wrote down E's description and it's among her belongings. Maybe, son will check on it.

[Ina123]

1 minute ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Yes, it was Elizabeth and I still can't help but wonder if that lady wrote down E's description and it's among her belongings. Maybe, son will check on it.

But Alderholt had the Robot searched anyway. They know the bug is there. Like you said, there's not much to be gotten from the dead woman, except a pretty good idea that she was murdered or really did have a heart attack when confronted by the people who broke in to plant the bug.

[stagmania]

3 hours ago, Dev F said:

On another topic, I'm definitely not on board with the Paige hatred here. In fact, I'm pretty baffled by the argument that it's implausible or out of character for Paige to be so thrown by her mother's actions. My upbringing was similar to Paige's -- I grew up sheltered in the suburbs in the 1980s -- and I would absolutely have been just as freaked out if I saw my mom stab someone to death in front me. Especially if she was so blase about it afterward. The fact that we've seen Philip and Elizabeth kill people so often it's become routine doesn't mean that Paige is going to find it a straightforward experience.

I suspect that the people who find Paige's reactions and personality unrealistic just don't know that many teenagers. Yes, some are mature, self-possessed and able to handle a lot. Some are very much the opposite and have a hard time wrapping their heads around the more complex parts of life, and there's a whole wide spectrum of personality and experience in between. I know plenty of kids like Paige, and find her characterization to be consistent and well drawn, even when she behaves in ways I don't believe I would have. 

3 hours ago, scartact said:

I also drew a connection to Elizabeth talking about growing up in Smolensk with when Philip talked about Tobolsk in "The Day After," and I thought it was an interesting variation between Phil and Liz. We are shown again Philip's reluctance to talk about the past and kind of speaks in pieces about it, but Elizabeth speaks directly to her admiration for her city's ability to rebuild itself. I did appreciate that sense of longing for home that she has, which absolutely comes back to reminding us of Elizabeth's experiences as technically an immigrant. I also loved to that after having that moment, they're both watching TV and it's the most comfortable we've seen them in doing something that has nothing to do with spy life. I just think overall I'm always going to be more of a fan of the Jennings family stuff than other people.

I'm right there with you, and I really love this observation about the way Elizabeth feels about her hometown. It's part of the reason I don't have any trouble empathizing with her-she has very good reasons to believe in what she does. Her experiences have shaped her in ways that make a lot of sense to me, and even though she is ostensibly my "enemy", I've never viewed her that way. As @Umbelina said above, part of the whole idea of this show is that the "others" on the opposite side of a conflict like this are still people, with loved ones and beliefs they hold dear, the same as all of us. Their stories are just as important as those of the people on the winning side of history. 

[scartact]

21 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Yes, it was Elizabeth and I still can't help but wonder if that lady wrote down E's description and it's among her belongings. Maybe, son will check on it.

I don't think so since Elizabeth must have staged her death more after she had finally passed. Plus, I would assume despite emotional stress she may have had from having to kill her, she would have swept the place to ensure there would be nothing to indicate she was there.

As for whether or not Aderholt could successfully prove she was murdered, at this point I don't see how that would be possible. Even with a body, all evidence is circumstantial since Elizabeth did not directly harm her, and circumstantial is not definitive. I think it's impressive enough that he even narrowed down her death as suspicious and was absolutely correct to check the Mail Robot.

Edited June 2, 2016 by scartact

[sistermagpie]

17 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

I disagree with most everyone about Henry. I wouldn't be surprised if Henry betrays them in the end. Henry is very American and he sees Stan as his friend. Paige was becoming "for the underdog" from the beginning, thus, her instant enchantment with the church group.

He's American and Stan is his friend but Philip, Elizabeth and Paige are his family. Paige doesn't want to protect her parents because she likes underdogs, she wants to protect them because they're her family.

[Umbelina]

Yeah, I just don't see them as any worse that our own spies, spying is a really dirty business.  They really went out of their way to relocate Martha too, when in reality, on either side, a bullet would have been much less expensive and risky.  In the commentary on Red, former CIA station chief Bob Baer makes this little aside that I thought was very telling.  He's talking about a point in the movie when the hero goes out of his way to save someone, and Baer kind of laughs and says something like, "Yeah, that would never happen.  When an op goes bad, you just abandon those people to whatever will happen to them."  "Those people" being the spies you have recruited, whether it's something as straightforward as the lady picking up the tape for $500 a week, or a long term agent like Martha who was honey-trapped, or the suitcase girl, etc.  It's all pretty damn cold blooded and focused, no matter what side you play for.

Oddly enough, he also said the CIA and KGB were actually pretty close in all but ideology, friendly, and there was an unspoken rule that no one broke, that is, they did not kill each other.  Ever.  Honestly, they were almost comrade like, or rather, like two football teams playing for different universities, rivalry, but none of the hatred we all assume.  After the USSR fell, many became friends, hung out together, talked about the good old days, went parachuting or shooting, kept in touch.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Umbelina

[SunnyBeBe]

17 minutes ago, Ina123 said:

But Alderholt had the Robot searched anyway. They know the bug is there. Like you said, there's not much to be gotten from the dead woman, except a pretty good idea that she was murdered or really did have a heart attack when confronted by the people who broke in to plant the bug.

What I meant is that when E was with the dying woman, she left to get some water or something.  The woman was unattended, so I suspected at the time that she may have written down on a journal or notebook what was happening and a description of E.  Of course, it may have not been noticed when they found her body. She might have stuck it in a drawer or cabinet, but if someone looked again, it might make sense.  I had given up on it, but now that the dead lady's son has his curiosity aroused.  I don't know....maybe.

Edited June 2, 2016 by SunnyBeBe

[Conan Troutman]

3 hours ago, Bannon said:

The Paige story arc has been problematic from the beginning. The idea of raising a child as a typical, affluent, American teenager until well into adolescence, and then quickly submerging her into a ideological POV which is alien to her experience, is pretty ridiculous. Yes, two parents could inculcate a child into that life of espionage, but they better not start, all of a sudden, when the kid is 14. The way this has been storyboarded really guarantees a lot of "ugh" moments and dialogue.

The problem is, they couldn't really do that when she was younger. The danger she would blab it out in school without even knowing was way too high. So they had to wait until she was old enough to understand how dangerous that secret was and even then Paige wasn't able to shut her mouth. Really, that whole second-generation-spy plan is just poorly thought out in general. 

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

So, how did the FBI locate William?  Apparently, they had a list of all the scientists who have access to bio intel in the US. That's a lot of people, I would imagine.  And they happen to have access to all the death certificates from over 40 years ago at their finger tips.  Is this right? They found William's pretty quick.  And as it turns out William had been under surveillance. Was that just a coincidence?  Was DON also under surveillance?

I think they narrowed down their list to a few dozen, maybe a hundred potential candidates. And then did checks on these, which probably can be done in a matter of a day or even less. They should have the manpower, the priority was high enough and a couple of days passed during the episode. I don't think it's unbelievable that they found out relatively quickly. Especially since they probably started with the more promising ones and as you said, William was already under surveillance. I don't know why he was, but that had to be a giant red flag. Don was probably not under surveillance, unless it was more of a routine thing. The Center knew William was, which is why they needed the plans from Martha, but that never came up with Don. 

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I think that part made sense and P&E would have agreed, but she seemed to be specifically asking if she should start hanging out with Matthew to report on him. That's what she was saying was the same as the Tims, that her parents told her she had to hang out with them. Like she forgot why that was a thing.

[...]

I think the thing about this scene is that she sometimes needs rules explained that seem obvious and for instance in this scene she wasn't letting her parents explain because she was accusing them. She does that sometimes--which is a very believable teenager thing, but it's not just her parents who aren't communicating well. Or it's one of those frustrating scenes where one party is stuck saying "But that's...that's different!" instead of snapping back with exactly how it's different like when Elizabeth laid out very clearly why Paige was stuck with the Tims.

[...]

Watching this ep made me really hope Henry's on his way in now. I really love that for the first time he got interested in what was going on and it was because of the danger. He even seemed to hesitate when he went into his room like he wanted to get more involved. I like to think this is a bit of a turning point of some kind, like Paige started to have in S1 when she was Henry's age. I also liked that he was asking Philip about what happened, because there's so much Elizabeth/Paige stuff and Philip and Henry are harder to pin down because they're less dominant personalities, but are still both similar.

Yeah, I was getting frustrated a bit in that scene - but not so much with Paige (okay, she should know that), more with Philip and Elizabeth who didn't tell her. They're great spies, but are in over their head when it comes to dealing with the whole Paige situation. As I've said above, the whole recruit-Paige idea was always a stupid one. 

Re: Henry: I can see him becoming more and more suspicious and poking around a bit. Maybe he'll check out the newspaper archives for the day of the incident - right now, he's buying that they scared them away, so he has no reason to assume that there even would be a report. But once he does suspect something, this might proof that he's onto something. I wonder if that thing gets mentioned at the next dinner with the Groovyhairs? 

1 hour ago, BetyBee said:

I'm glad to see that I am not alone in not disliking Paige.  She is a young woman who is coping remarkably well despite the burden placed on her by her parents.  Like Alice, she did not ask for any of this.  I think that P&E have raised two decent kids despite the fact that they were often absentee parents.  I do believe that Henry is starting to question how different their family life is, just as Paige did.  And he is noticing that everyone knows something and he's the odd man out.  I hope one of these kids does go to Stan and that P&E are caught.  They are assassins, in this country illegally and I'm fine with them being caught and punished.  Don't get me wrong - I find them fascinating and they do have redeeming qualities, but that would be the most exciting and logical conclusion to this story.  

I don't really want that to happen. That would be too sudden and anticlimactic. I want the FBI to get closer and closer and eventually find out - and maybe put the Jenningses under surveillance (in the hope they could lead them to other illegals etc.) for the stretch run. That would make for a nice role reversal, with Stand being in the know and the P+E unaware of the danger. 

44 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

 

Henry definitely is much more aware of things than his parents or sister know.  Twice now we've had lingering camera shots of his face after his parents shuffle Paige off somewhere.  After hockey, and last night when the left to "see how Paige is."  I don't think the directors would include those shots just to fuck with us.  Also, Chekhov's computer is a given.

 

Yeah, he's going to find out eventually and I think he'll know more than Paige when pressured P+E into telling her the truth. But I'm not sure about the computer, that's probably just a computer and more about giving Henry something to do in the background than crucial to the plot. Like I said above, I can see Henry getting suspicious after a lie or two blows up and doing his own investigations from there on out. 

4 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

My memory is a little fuzzy on this.  Wasn't it Phillip that forced the old lady to overdose at that copier repair center, triggering that old lady to have heart failure?  I didn't think it was Elizabeth.

Even if they exhume that old lady's body, the most it could show is an overdose.  That could just as easily be ruled a suicide, not necessarily murder..

Why would they exhume the body in the first place? They don't have the suspect and now need proof. It's quite the opposite, they already have the proof (by autopsy of the mail robot) and now need their suspect. 

[sistermagpie]

Just now, Conan Troutman said:

I don't know why he was, but that had to be a giant red flag. Don was probably not under surveillance, unless it was more of a routine thing. The Center knew William was, which is why they needed the plans from Martha, but that never came up with Don. 

Everyone was under surveillance just in case. Not all the time, but at random shifts. It was just standard protocol.

[tennisgurl]

9 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

After the USSR fell, many became friends, hung out together, talked about the good old days, went parachuting or shooting, kept in touch.

Now I want to have a scene near the end of the show, where the show has jumped in time to after the fall of the USSR, and we see Oleg and Stan meeting in a bar, and laughing about how they can actually talk to each other somewhere other than an empty parking lot. 

I worry about Oleg and his future. He has become one of my favorite characters on the show, and Costa does such a great job with him, it would really suck if he ended up like Nina by next week. 

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, Conan Troutman said:

he problem is, they couldn't really do that when she was younger. The danger she would blab it out in school without even knowing was way too high. So they had to wait until she was old enough to understand how dangerous that secret was and even then Paige wasn't able to shut her mouth. Really, that whole second-generation-spy plan is just poorly thought out in general. 

That wasn't what I meant. I meant they needed to be very overtly raising her to be sympathetic to communism, while telling her to not talk politics outside of the home. Yes, there would be some risk of the Jennings being thought as having hard left politics, but they didn't need to tell Paige early on that they were KGB agents, to better prep her for the big reveal.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

That wasn't what I meant. I meant they needed to be very overtly raising her to be sympathetic to communism, while telling her to not talk politics outside of the home. Yes, there would be some risk of the Jennings being thought as having hard left politics, but they didn't need to tell Paige early on that they were KGB agents, to better prep her for the big reveal.

Interesting that with the children of the real Illegals they weren't raised to be sympathetic to Russia per se, but they were raised bilingual (French/English) and taken out of the country often. They said they were always raised as not "ordinary" Americans with a more global perspective. The show, for obvious reasons, did the opposite with their kids.

[Umbelina]

Just now, tennisgurl said:

Now I want to have a scene near the end of the show, where the show has jumped in time to after the fall of the USSR, and we see Oleg and Stan meeting in a bar, and laughing about how they can actually talk to each other somewhere other than an empty parking lot. 

I worry about Oleg and his future. He has become one of my favorite characters on the show, and Costa does such a great job with him, it would really suck if he ended up like Nina by next week. 

The FBI is not the CIA though, completely different mindsets really.  Also, I think the real field work involved for the CIA gave them different views of the world, where the FBI was completely based in the USA, no real exposure to the realities of the world.  Kind of like those guys at Center, they only know their own reality.

The CIA though?  They knew the shit both sides did, they knew that in reality, the two sets of spies had more in common than anyone at the FBI could possibly realize.  They saw other governments, hell, they toppled them.  That doesn't mean they weren't loyal to the USA, it simply means they were far more jaded about the world and how it really works.

[Anela]

It did give me chills, when Oleg mentioned the Challenger (someone mentioned that on the previous page). 

I like how they're zeroing in on things, like the mail robot, and other things. 

I'm also glad that Paige's parents told her she doesn't have to "work" Matthew. I was afraid that Elizabeth was thinking about encouraging her in that way. I was also surprised that Paige was suddenly so willing to get information for them. 

[izabella]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

That wasn't what I meant. I meant they needed to be very overtly raising her to be sympathetic to communism, while telling her to not talk politics outside of the home. Yes, there would be some risk of the Jennings being thought as having hard left politics, but they didn't need to tell Paige early on that they were KGB agents, to better prep her for the big reveal.

Yes, and it's easily done.  My parents were not Communists or activists or anything, but as immigrants, they had a different perspective on the "news" as told on tv (because they listened to foreign radio programs and read foreign newspapers), and they rooted for the Eastern bloc countries during the Olympics (lol, it's their homeland!), and always had something to say about Reagan's foreign policy that was more fully informed than what Dan Rather told us or what was in his Russian bear propaganda speeches.  I grew up with a healthy skepticism about "news" and how information could be selectively and incompletely be told, and in some case, be downright lies. 

So they could easily have raised Paige and Henry to be more skeptical and critical of American foreign policy, and even sympathetic to their cause.  Elizabeth tried to do a little bit of that, but it was too little, too late.

[Conan Troutman]

7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Everyone was under surveillance just in case. Not all the time, but at random shifts. It was just standard protocol.

Ah, I remembered that differently. I thought maybe the whole group with level three access was under surveillance because something went missing in the past. Don would've been exempt of that since he had level four access. 

3 minutes ago, Bannon said:

That wasn't what I meant. I meant they needed to be very overtly raising her to be sympathetic to communism, while telling her to not talk politics outside of the home. Yes, there would be some risk of the Jennings being thought as having hard left politics, but they didn't need to tell Paige early on that they were KGB agents, to better prep her for the big reveal.

I don't think the Jenningses could afford to do even that. And they were probably right - had Stan heard about them being pro communist, he wouldn't have dropped his initial suspicion from very early on. The approach sistermagpie described above could've worked, though. But yeah, that's were the premise of the show just demands otherwise. 

[madam magpie]

45 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Yeah, I just don't see them as any worse that our own spies, spying is a really dirty business.  They really went out of their way to relocate Martha too, when in reality, on either side, a bullet would have been much less expensive and risky.  In the commentary on Red, former CIA station chief Bob Baer makes this little aside that I thought was very telling.  He's talking about a point in the movie when the hero goes out of his way to save someone, and Baer kind of laughs and says something like, "Yeah, that would never happen.  When an op goes bad, you just abandon those people to whatever will happen to them."  "Those people" being the spies you have recruited, whether it's something as straightforward as the lady picking up the tape for $500 a week, or a long term agent like Martha who was honey-trapped, or the suitcase girl, etc.  It's all pretty damn cold blooded and focused, no matter what side you play for.

Oddly enough, he also said the CIA and KGB were actually pretty close in all but ideology, friendly, and there was an unspoken rule that no one broke, that is, they did not kill each other.  Ever.  Honestly, they were almost comrade like, or rather, like two football teams playing for different universities, rivalry, but none of the hatred we all assume.  After the USSR fell, many became friends, hung out together, talked about the good old days, went parachuting or shooting, kept in touch.

I think remember reading that the space agencies were sort of like that too. There was a respect and camaraderie among them as scientists.

I was surprised the KGB got Martha out, honestly. But I was also surprised years ago when I learned that the Soviets didn't execute Rudolf Abel, whom we traded for our U2 pilot back in the 1960s. It was all for propaganda purposes, I'm sure, and both were on their side; they absolutely did get rid of people working against them. But I can't help but contrast that with something Valerie Plame said after the Bush White House exposed her--how yeah, her career was over and that was bad, but her assets on the ground working in support of American interests would likely be killed because our govt took revenge on one of its own agents. We're just not as purely noble as our own propaganda claims.

I can easily empathize with people fighting tooth and nail for a cause...even if I personally don't support the cause or consider its govt pure or noble. And I can understand them as people who aren't that different from me. (Except in the ninja skills department,of course.)

Edited June 2, 2016 by madam magpie

[dramachick]

5 hours ago, Paloma said:

I thought that Elizabeth was justified in killing the guy to protect Paige, and that any parent would do the same if he or she had the training, but my husband strongly disagreed--he thought that she could have and should have just disarmed him so she and Paige could get away (since the other guy had already run away). Not sure if our differing views have anything to do with gender and women's greater fear of rape.

There are some areas where men and women see things differently because of gender, and personal safety is one of them.

Margaret Atwood:  "Why do men feel threatened by women?" I asked a male friend of mine. So this male friend of mine, who does by the way exist, conveniently entered into the following dialogue. "I mean," I said, "men are bigger, most of the time, they can run faster, strangle better, and they have on the average a lot more money and power." "They're afraid women will laugh at them," he said. "Undercut their world view." Then I asked some women students in a quickie poetry seminar I was giving, "Why do women feel threatened by men?" "They're afraid of being killed," they said.

Elizabeth gave her wallet to a mugger. When the would-be-rapist brandished that knife, it had to be a fight to the death.

In spite of my Paige-fatigue, I still love this show. I wish more time could have been devoted to development of the story line with William and the effect his disillusionment has on Philip, who already sees the protection of his family as paramount to everything else, and Elizabeth, who is slowly realizing that when push comes to shove, she feels the same way.

[CarpeDiem54]

5 hours ago, AliShibaz said:

Was anyone else taken aback by Paige's weird eyebrows in the scene where she and Matthew are alone and talking with each other? I don't know why. But her eyebrows really shook me up. One eyebrow seemed to point at a 45 degree angle. (I believe it was her left eyebrow). It just looked so extremely bizarre that I thought it had to be some kind of signal (probably to the audience) that something was very wrong with this girl. I'm probably mistaken about this. But I'd really like to know if anyone else had a similar reaction.

I honestly just wish that Paige would somehow disappear from this show.

Upthread, someone posted a link to an opinion posted by a reviewer about a recent episode and they were quite explicit when discussing Paige's acting ability. (actually, it would be more accurate to say they were discussing Holly Taylor's ability). They used the word "range" more than once and I'm pretty sure they implied that she either had no range or a very limited range when it came to her acting. I've been saying that for quite a while now. Until last night, I've only ever seen her display two or three different "looks" on her face and I've always assumed that meant that she just did not have much of any kind of range when it came to her acting ability.

I'm sorry to say this because I know that it will upset a great many people. But I honestly think she really ruins the quality of this show. So sad. So very sad.

This!  All of this!  All of her acting ability seems to be tied up in those eyebrows and watching them doing their contortions totally takes me out of the scenes she's in.

1 hour ago, sunsheyen said:

When Paige asked if they trusted her, the simple answer should have been "No." Trusting you got us ragey video making pregnant Alice. I have a hard time believing that even with the Americanness of how they are raising Paige and Henry, that Elizabeth would tolerate this demanding, questioning grown folks' phone conversations, smart mouth behavior. There is no way an adult is here to answer to Paige's ass. 

I do not like this character nor the way they have written her parents' interactions with her. 

Yeah, I'm not into the allowing her back talk either.  

[FormerMod-a1]

I think they should have answered something like " we do trust you not to intentionally hurt us or do anything "wrong", but that doesn't mean an accident might happen, that something seemingly innocuous would end up exposing us in the long run."  That's not quite the right wording, maybe even make it shorter.  "We trust you love us and don't want to hurt us, but that doesn't mean you need to know everything right this minute."

[tennisgurl]

Its so interesting to me to hear about peoples experiences growing up and living through the Cold War. I was born in 1989, so I pretty much missed the whole thing, and the first time I ever remember hearing about the Soviet Union or the Cold War was after watching Captain Planet when I was a kid, and wondering why the home country of the Russian girl on the team kept changing (it went from Soviet Union, to Former Soviet Union, to Eastern Europe), and my Mom gave me an extremely short version of what all that meant. This show to me is a peak into the past for me, and makes me think about what my parents were doing when all this was going down. My younger sister and I both watch and love this show, so we have talked to our parents about it before, and its been really interesting getting their perspective on the whole thing. Neither of them watch the show (too much sex for their tastes) but they sometimes will ask us whats going on. 

[Chaos Theory]

The thing that I find so fascinating about the show is how consistant the writing of the characters are.  I am not sure if it was the first or second season but at one point Elizabeth told Philip if they got caught Henry would be fine.  He would find his way but their was something fragile about Paige.  That is a good as any word to describe her even now.  There is just something fragile about her.  I think that 'something fragile' is off putting to some but I find it fascinating because it has the potential to end very badly and very bloody.

[Umbelina]

9 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

I think they should have answered something like " we do trust you not to intentionally hurt us or do anything "wrong", but that doesn't mean an accident might happen, that something seemingly innocuous would end up exposing us in the long run."  That's not quite the right wording, maybe even make it shorter.  "We trust you love us and don't want to hurt us, but that doesn't mean you need to know everything right this minute."

Yeah, there were several other ways out of that conversation.  I think we are supposed to think they were blindsided and unprepared for those specific questions, and also kind of hamstrung by having promised honesty.  Had Philip not been rushing to get out of there, they would have handled things better, which I felt was very true to life.  However, perhaps that little delay will save Philip's life after all, if he was on his way to meet William.

A simple, "We will tell you more after you are ready, this isn't about trusting you, it's about your need to know, and not wanting to put you in a position to lie when there is no point to it." 

Something.  But they were caught off guard. 

[izabella]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

Something.  But they were caught off guard. 

They were caught off guard, and that bugs me about the writing.  They shouldn't have been off guard, not after Paige kept asking all those questions which led them to telling her they were spies in the first place.  Did they expect Paige would stop asking questions after that?  I would have expected P&E to spend the intervening months staying up all night planning what they would tell her when she asked more questions until they knew exactly what to say.

[Umbelina]

26 minutes ago, CarpeDiem54 said:

 

Yeah, I'm not into the allowing her back talk either.  

You get that they are working with an emotional teenage girl right?  They have to be very, very, very, beyond careful with Paige.  Piss her off by pulling the "no back talk" attitude after all she's been through and knows?  She could storm right across the street and tell Stan everything in a teenage fit of anger.  Or she could let the resentment build about that, and the details about weapons to be used against her country could come to the forefront of her mind, and make her completely reevaluate the value of familial love being a reason to be a traitor not only to her country, but to people she cares for, the Pastors.

Never underestimate the passion and tantrums of a hormonal 15 year old. 

They DO have to treat her with kid gloves because she could destroy them with one phone call made in a pique of fury.

5 minutes ago, izabella said:

They were caught off guard, and that bugs me about the writing.  They shouldn't have been off guard, not after Paige kept asking all those questions which led them to telling her they were spies in the first place.  Did they expect Paige would stop asking questions after that?  I would have expected P&E to spend the intervening months staying up all night planning what they would tell her when she asked more questions until they knew exactly what to say.

She never had before though, certainly not asking about specific operations.  I honestly don't think it occurred to either of them that she would even WANT to know.  This is all new ground for them, there is no manual or training for this stuff.

Ha.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Umbelina

[madam magpie]

1 minute ago, izabella said:

They were caught off guard, and that bugs me about the writing.  They shouldn't have been off guard, not after Paige kept asking all those questions which led them to telling her they were spies in the first place.  Did they expect Paige would stop asking questions after that?  I would have expected P&E to spend the intervening months staying up all night planning what they would tell her when she asked more questions until they knew exactly what to say.

Even if they did that, they can still be caught off guard. Even the most planned mission can hit roadblocks and require improvisation. That happens all the time on this show. Elizabeth and Philip are human beings. That's the point. They're people just like us, and no matter how smart they are, how much they plan, what they think, they can't anticipate everything. This conversation was precipitated by Elizabeth and Paige being attacked randomly in a parking lot. There was no way for mom and dad to prepare ahead of time for how Paige might react to seeing her mother have to kill a random dude who attacked them on their way home from church. Life is unpredictable...expecting people to be prepared and in control 100% of the time is unrealistic. 

[Pickles]

Sorry to be annoying. I love this show, but have only started watching this season. I need to go back and start at the beginning, but can someone briefly explain what happened with the old lady at the copy center and why she was killed.

[izabella]

8 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She never had before though, certainly not asking about specific operations.  I honestly don't think it occurred to either of them that she would even WANT to know.  This is all new ground for them, there is no manual or training for this stuff.

See, I just don't buy that.  Paige was asking very specifically about whether they killed people, what kind of work they did, what happened when they "met" with people, etc.  This wasn't the first time she wanted answers, and her questions have been more and more probing.

[hellmouse]

8 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

Even if they did that, they can still be caught off guard. Even the most planned mission can hit roadblocks and require improvisation. That happens all the time on this show. Elizabeth and Philip are human beings. That's the point. They're people just like us, and no matter how smart they are, how much they plan, what they think, they can't anticipate everything. This conversation was precipitated by Elizabeth and Paige being attacked randomly in a parking lot. There was no way for mom and dad to prepare ahead of time for how Paige might react to seeing her mother have to kill a random dude who attacked them on their way home from church. Life is unpredictable...expecting people to be prepared and in control 100% of the time is unrealistic. 

Philip and Elizabeth are masters of improvisation. But Paige being their daughter complicates everything. They can't outright lie to her. Their most frequently stated fear is that she will hate them. What they could do is say "we will talk about this later tonight" and give themselves some time to figure out what to say. But that could irritate Paige, and they don't want to take that risk because they don't know what she might do. 

One thing I thought was interesting in that final scene in the kitchen is that the phone rings a few times before Paige answers it. Philip and Elizabeth are both so fully involved in the discussion with Paige that they don't go to answer the phone. Normally, one of them answers, and they do it fairly quickly. But this time it seemed like both of them felt the conversation with Paige was more important than the phone, which usually represents "work". 

But I do think it would benefit them to find some time to sit down with Paige and talk, uninterrupted, instead of these random tense exchanges. 

[SunnyBeBe]

11 minutes ago, Pickles said:

Sorry to be annoying. I love this show, but have only started watching this season. I need to go back and start at the beginning, but can someone briefly explain what happened with the old lady at the copy center and why she was killed.

Philip and Elizabeth broke into the place that serviced the mail robot to set up the recording device, but were surprised the old lady was there. She saw them and they felt they had no choice but to kill her.  She had heart trouble and Elizabeth made her take too much medication and watched her die in front of her.  It was considered a natural death, since no on knew the place had been compromised.  The death bothered Elizabeth and it showed how she really did hate doing it 

[Dowel Jones]

Quote

No Paige maybe I should have invited him over for dinner and rehabilitated him.

I'm sure the conversation with Pastor Tim and Alice, along with Philip/Elizabeth, Henry, and Stan would have been most scintillating.

 

Quote

Don was probably not under surveillance, unless it was more of a routine thing

I have a feeling that now that William has been exposed, the trail will lead fairly quickly to Don, especially if some access to L4 is done.  From Don, the trail will lead, at least on paper, to "dead Patty" and her family, giving the FBI more suspects to tie together.  That is, if William makes it that far.  By the way, it seemed to me that they did not find anything useful in the search of Don's office.  Yet, this episode, Philip gives William a 5-digit code.  A code that simple would not be written down.  Did I miss how he obtained it?

Regarding Paige's reaction to the killing, it makes sense to me in part because Elizabeth made no effort to contact the police.  Killing a mugger in self defense is not such a heinous offense, but running away from the scene without reporting it shows (to Paige) that her mom truly isn't part of the culture she has grown up in.  That would be a crushing blow to an adolescent.

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Dowel Jones said:

  By the way, it seemed to me that they did not find anything useful in the search of Don's office.  Yet, this episode, Philip gives William a 5-digit code.  A code that simple would not be written down.  Did I miss how he obtained it?

They took everything off the computer and combed through it. Apparently it was there.

I don't think this will necessarily lead back to Don. It led to William, who worked in the lab. They might just assume he stole the code any number of ways rather than looking for other outsiders working someone else.

[Superpole2000]

9 minutes ago, Pickles said:

Sorry to be annoying. I love this show, but have only started watching this season. I need to go back and start at the beginning, but can someone briefly explain what happened with the old lady at the copy center and why she was killed.

Episode 9 of Season 3. One of my favourites.

[hellmouse]

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

That wasn't what I meant. I meant they needed to be very overtly raising her to be sympathetic to communism, while telling her to not talk politics outside of the home. Yes, there would be some risk of the Jennings being thought as having hard left politics, but they didn't need to tell Paige early on that they were KGB agents, to better prep her for the big reveal.

They never thought their children would be involved in the cause. In the pilot, Elizabeth says "we promised, we swore that we would never tell them"; Philip says the same thing in Season 3. 

It's the Centre that has created this mess. It's like when they sent the assassin to kill the scientists and then changed their mind. They sent Philip and Elizabeth to be normal Americans with a normal American family. Now they've changed their mind and want them to change their children from being part of their cover to being undercover with them. If they had known back when the kids were first born that this was the plan, they probably would have raised them differently. It would probably also have jeopardized their cover.  

[Bannon]

13 minutes ago, hellmouse said:

They never thought their children would be involved in the cause. In the pilot, Elizabeth says "we promised, we swore that we would never tell them"; Philip says the same thing in Season 3. 

It's the Centre that has created this mess. It's like when they sent the assassin to kill the scientists and then changed their mind. They sent Philip and Elizabeth to be normal Americans with a normal American family. Now they've changed their mind and want them to change their children from being part of their cover to being undercover with them. If they had known back when the kids were first born that this was the plan, they probably would have raised them differently. It would probably also have jeopardized their cover.  

I largely agree, which is why the only way to write a resolution to this conflict credibly now is for Paige to go into full rebellion role, as I have mentioned in a couple earlier posts. As in "Eff you, Mom and Dad. I'm not going to to turn you in, but I'm not recognizing your authority any longer. If you want to kill me have at it. Otherwise, shut up, and I will be out of your hair in two years. Hell, I'll leave right now!"

Edited June 2, 2016 by Bannon
speling

[crashdown]

4 hours ago, scartact said:

I just think overall I'm always going to be more of a fan of the Jennings family stuff than other people.

I'm right there with you, but I think that the "Jennings family stuff" is really the point of the show--it's not something extraneous thrown into an action series as an afterthought to please a female demographic.  As someone said somewhere in this thread, the show is the story of Elizabeth and her changing concept of what her life's work, her ultimate purpose, really is.  She starts out passionately wanting to serve her country, and I think she'll end up just as passionately wanting to protect her family.  All these moments with the Jennings family--little ones where Elizabeth and Philip complain to each other about Henry's terrible perfume and big ones in which Paige grills them about their own moral choices and consequences--are in service to that journey.

It strikes me that the important theme of this season has been the struggle between one's personal ethics and serving the larger unit to which one belongs, and Paige is a big part of that (and an interesting part, because she has two "larger units" to weigh against her own ethics--her family, and the United States itself).  Elizabeth had to struggle with her personal feelings toward Young Hee; Philip had Martha; and William finally wanted to say that he could not in good conscience unleash a potential Armageddon-causing pathogen into the world.  Each of the characters came to his or her own decision about how to resolve that moral quandary, but the battle was very real and a little heartbreaking for all of them.  It's particularly fascinating with regard to Elizabeth, who seemingly never experienced a twinge of personal conflict with her larger duty before the Young Hee assignment.

[Bannon]

9 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

They took everything off the computer and combed through it. Apparently it was there.

I don't think this will necessarily lead back to Don. It led to William, who worked in the lab. They might just assume he stole the code any number of ways rather than looking for other outsiders working someone else.

In the early 80s, access codes would have been individualized, and tracked. They would know or strongly suspect Don's access code was used (actually the whole place, by the early 80's, should have been under constant video recording as well), and thus Don would have every nook and cranny, including his wife's social circle, closely examined. 

The writers pretty consistently ignore this stuff, however.

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I largely agree, which is why the only way to write a resolution to this conflict credibly now is for Paige to go into full rebellion role, as I have mentioned in a couple earlier posts. As in "Eff you, Mom and Dad. I'm not going to to turn you in, but I'm not recognizing your auhthority any longer. If you want to kill me have at it. Otherwise, shut up, and I will be out of your hair in two years. Hell, I'll leave right now!"

I don't think that's necessarily a credible resolution, though. The show's done, imo, a good job of setting up a family that genuinely loves each other and also believably shown how appealing it would be to be in on the secret at the center of it. Paige did talk a lot about just wanting to get away from her crazy parents, she embraced her church group and shove that in their faces, but really she's too attracted to her parents' secret life to be in rebellious mode. They are doing a lot of things she dreamed of doing when she thought she was rebelling against them.

 

4 minutes ago, crashdown said:

I'm right there with you, but I think that the "Jennings family stuff" is really the point of the show--it's not something extraneous thrown into an action series as an afterthought to please a female demographic.  

Yeah, this isn't something the creators have hidden. They've always said that's what it was about--a marriage and a family.

 

4 minutes ago, Bannon said:

In the early 80s, access codes would have been individualized, and tracked. They would know or strongly suspect Don's access code was used (actually the whole place, by the early 80's, should have been under constant video recording as well), and thus Don would have every nook and cranny, including his wife's social circle, closely examined. 

Good point that if it was an individual code it would of course go back to him. 

[hellmouse]

30 minutes ago, crashdown said:

I'm right there with you, but I think that the "Jennings family stuff" is really the point of the show--it's not something extraneous thrown into an action series as an afterthought to please a female demographic.  As someone said somewhere in this thread, the show is the story of Elizabeth and her changing concept of what her life's work, her ultimate purpose, really is.  She starts out passionately wanting to serve her country, and I think she'll end up just as passionately wanting to protect her family.  All these moments with the Jennings family--little ones where Elizabeth and Philip complain to each other about Henry's terrible perfume and big ones in which Paige grills them about their own moral choices and consequences--are in service to that journey.

It strikes me that the important theme of this season has been the struggle between one's personal ethics and serving the larger unit to which one belongs, and Paige is a big part of that (and an interesting part, because she has two "larger units" to weigh against her own ethics--her family, and the United States itself).  Elizabeth had to struggle with her personal feelings toward Young Hee; Philip had Martha; and William finally wanted to say that he could not in good conscience unleash a potential Armageddon-causing pathogen into the world.  Each of the characters came to his or her own decision about how to resolve that moral quandary, but the battle was very real and a little heartbreaking for all of them.  It's particularly fascinating with regard to Elizabeth, who seemingly never experienced a twinge of personal conflict with her larger duty before the Young Hee assignment.

I completely agree about the family stuff being the point of the show. 

Your observation about the theme of the season is fascinating. I think you could add at least two more people to that list fo characters facing moral quandaries. Nina chose personal ethics - trying to help Baklanov - rather than continuing to do the bidding of her masters. Oleg revealed the biowarfare threat to Stan because he felt it was too dangerous for the Soviets to get the virus, even though it meant going against his own country.

Edited June 2, 2016 by hellmouse