S11.E23: Alpha And Omega

[Frost]

Was the entire season of Amara and Dean's connection just so that he could give her that talk about family?  I thought there would be something deeper or more meaningful to it.  She was basically lusting after him and manipulating his reactions to her all year, to what end?  "Oh, I just really wanted to spend time with my brother.  Bye."

[Goldmoon]

Yeah, Frost, I feel ya.  Also, I kind of though Luci was in Sam, because didn't Sam give his "yes" like a second too late?  But Toni would have sent Sam/Luci running if that were the case.  So where IS Lucifer? I am very unhappy at losing Cas AGAIN.  The showrunners need to use Misha wisely.

[ZennyKenny]

Ok the more I think about it, the more irritated I am with that ending. That British chick just broke into the lair, banished Cas, and revealed that she traveled from another country to track down the Winchesters. And Sam antagonizes her by saying that she's not going to shoot him, while walking towards her? Really? That was just a stupid move to pull a cliffhanger out of their ass.

[companionenvy]

I agree that the bro and Dean/Cas moments felt very paint-by-numbers. I'm also really disappointed in how the show used Chuck. I'm fine with an irreverent portrayal of God, and wound up loving his intro in Don't Call Me Shurley. But something rings really false about having God show up and quickly wind up being just another member of the team. This reflects a larger lack of emotional nuance in the portrayal of God's relationship with the various members of TFW.  Dean got a good scene with Chuck last week. But it is a narrative crime to me that neither Sam nor Cas got a similar moment. I mean, Sam is a believer who used to pray every night, but who also spent a good number of years suspecting he was in some way tainted by demonic influence. Cas spent millenia as a warrior of God, and then "fell" in large part because of a loss of faith in his father. These three characters have three distinct relationships with faith, and that should have been addressed on screen.

I am quite excited about the return of Mary, who I've long thought should have been resurrected in place of Samuel way back in season 6. I'm less excited about Lady Toni, and would have strongly preferred that we simply began season 12 with Sam, Dean and Mary in the bunker. I'm pretty sure the return of your long-dead mom would be quite enough drama to begin with. In any case, I hope Mary sticks around for at least a substantial arc.

[AwesomO4000]

13 minutes ago, Frost said:

Was the entire season of Amara and Dean's connection just so that he could give her that talk about family?  I thought there would be something deeper or more meaningful to it.  She was basically lusting after him and manipulating his reactions to her all year, to what end?  "Oh, I just really wanted to spend time with my brother.  Bye."

Okay - this is likely hyperbole and me seeing something that's not there, but here goes...

I thought that Dean was a representative of her brother's creation. And also the last bearer of her "lock." She was manipulating him, trying to control him because he was representing those things. That's similar to what Amara had done before - except in that case it was destroy her brother's creations. This time she was manipulating them/him. She was interested in him as her brother's creation, but at the same time she wanted to influence his responses. I'm having a hard time explaining what I mean here - like maybe she was like a kid who wants a puppy, but only wants the puppy to do what she wants it to do, and then is disappointed when the puppy doesn't want to play right then, but wants to sleep. So interest, but only to a point, because she doesn't want Dean to reject her - like her brother did. So I think Dean was like being near to something of Chuck's without the fear / concern of being rejected again, because she could influence his response - unlike Chuck's.

So yes, she did want to see Chuck - she had said as such all season - but that didn't mean - to me - that Dean didn't serve a purpose here. I actually think he did and was extremely important. Oh, I think I got the illustration I was looking for...

Dean was like a bike with training wheels. A way for Amara to learn about Chuck's creation without the fear of falling (being rejected), and after being locked away so long, that was a necessity for Amara to take a chance to learn. She needed to be able to somewhat control the situation/response to even begin to take a chance. If there was that fear of being rejected again, it likely wouldn't have happened at all. I think instead she would've just come out swinging.

So bottom line, I think Dean was her training wheels. He gave Amara a safe first look and therefore the confidence to take a chance and really see Chuck's creation for what it could be, and that she didn't have to be afraid of it anymore. That she could see why Chuck could love these other things as well as her and accept that herself.

That made sense in my head, anyway.

[catrox14]

There should have been NO interruption between the decision for Dean to be the bomb and the visit to Mary's grave. The editing in this episode is so squirrelly.

They should have started the sun dying out in like 11.19. Show the world starting to totally freak out.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ZennyKenny said:

Plus, that weird guitar riff that was playing when the some came back just seemed out-of-place.

I HATED that music cue. It didn't work at all.

[catrox14]

[catrox14]

Edited May 26, 2016 by catrox14

[catrox14]

http://itsokaysammy.tumblr.com/post/144936720792

[AuntTora]

I liked maybe opening up into a wider hunter/MOL world, I liked that no one died (to come back before the first commercial next year), I liked that I did not see Mary's return coming at all. It's a trick to come back from apocalypses and Chod and the MoC, to less universe-destroying stories, which I think they actually managed to set up for next year.

Didn't like the weird pacing and disjointedness of the handful of eps leading up to the end. I always wonder what impact the "will they or won't they" re renewing for another season, has on the production. Is Mary going to be able to integrate back into her earthly life, while John is still in heaven? Hrm. Also Castiel back to full angel power? Argh, another year of finding ways to de-power him.

Finally, Rowena's wardrobe and whole...thing. At some point it just struck me as funny she walks around in public like that.

[GirlyGeek]

Apparently all it takes is Dean freaking Winchester winking at a tombstone and I'm a huge mess.  

I'm excited about the Mary Winchester reveal (and I knew it!  I stand by my spec that she was in the "Darkess"/Veil/Nothing and she was there all along.  which would suck).

Of course now Sam will be gone from the Bunker and so will Cas and Dean will have to find them, but will get some quality Mom time.  Of course, she won't know who he is probably, he'll have to convince her that he's her son, hi jinx will ensue.  It'll be great.  I can hear the keyboards clacking with Fanfic right now :)

Anyway, I do agree with other posts that said it was kinda dull for a finale.  And the editing was jarring and the music cues were weird.  Like, how hard is it after 11 seasons to get it right?
But I like the set up and I hope god/angelsthatarentCas/demons/etc all stay away next season!  And I want some serious Winchester Family Reunion eps- sugary sweet, full house moments.  I'm serious.  No evilMary crap.   :)

[Triskan]

Personally I always thoughts MoL could be some of the best antagonist (remember that one guy in season 8, the one with the out of time and space magic bunker and the First Blade, he was a one episode deal but he remains for me one of the most threatening foe of the series), so I'm curious to see where things will go from here.

Cant decide if that lady Toni shot Sam dead or just injured him to carry him back to London... both prospects are interesting. Either hello Empty and Billie (hey, after all, the Empty has been teased too much never to check on it !) either hello isolation cell and experiments (as someone said above)... dunno but in any case I think there is potential for interesting stuff with Sam at the beginning of next season.

[anarchyangel84]

Oh, what this show could've been. I usually watch the SN reruns they have on TNT on the mornings I'm home. I love watching seasons 1-6 (yes, despite the problems season 6 had, I still enjoyed it because of the "Weekend At Bobby's" episode.) It's so hard to watch 1-6 though because I miss that. I miss everyone so much that they've screwed up & killed off. Most of all, I miss Bobby, Killing him off was their biggest mistake- now Sam & Dean have no one. The finales were awesome & theyd always have me in tears. This time, I wasn't even upset. I mean, when Dean was saying his good bye's, it didn't bother me. I think it's either because knew if he did die, he'd find his way back. But I didn't think he would die at all. What I didn't expect to happen is that Dean would turn into Dr. Phil and counsel not only GOD but his sister- THE DARKNESS. He went there with a bomb in his chest & God & the Darkness leave holding hands. WTF?? 

I wish she woulda brought Bobby back instead of Mary, she just complicates things. Especially with Sam being taken. (We all know that she didn't kill him.) We know that Mary was a hunter when she was young- but how's that family reunion gonna be?? "Hey Mom, this is my friend, the angel Castiel, this is the King of Hell- Crowley, and this is his mother- she's a witch and her name is Rowena. Sam? I don't know where he is. By the way Mom, your Dad came back to life. We hunted with him and a couple other Campbell's a few times. But then they tried to have us killed. The next time I saw him, he had this weird worm inside of him so I shot him in the head." And that's just for starters! There's just too much crap to explain & another person to worry about. I can't watch them lose her again & what are they gonna do, stop hunting & live happily ever after with their Mom? In the Men of Letters bunker?

I will never stop watching because I love Jared, Jensen, & company too much. I'll support them to the bitter end. I just hope that bitter end is next season. 

[ae2]

Seriously people, there has to be a better place to slice open than the palm of your hand. That's going to take forever to heal, and make doing two handed things difficult. 

[NoWillToResist]

So I find myself torn. On the one hand, it's nice to have (IMO) definitive confirmation that Dean/Cas is, and will remain, familial so I guess thanks for that, show. And thanks for having Dean reiterate that Cas is family and specifically a brother; there can be no higher compliment from Dean. :)  Can we get back to them having scenes together now?

That said, I found the way Misha played Cas in that car scene very interesting. He seemed...disappointed. So, am I to come away from this scene understanding that Cas is IN love with Dean, knows it, and was disappointed (though not surprised) to be "brother zoned"? Or was that a bit of Misha seeping through, knowing that there would be howls of outrage and sadness and anger from a certain segment of the fandom?

I also would like to send a virtual (gentle) smack upside Jensen's head though because that scene did not remotely clarify why Dean was more affected by Cas's possession than Sam. If they both view Cas as a brother, then why the difference in reactions? I was fine with my fanwanky explanation that Dean feels more responsible for his loved ones but Jensen basically said there'd be more clarification in the finale which, IMO, most certainly did not happen.

Bah. Whatever. Hopefully TPTB will let Cas back into the Winchester sandbox in S12..

[Primetimer]

That season finale was the bomb! Almost!

View the full article

[arcadia63]

Ok I had to LOL that they used Waverly Hills.  I live in Louisville and it's a big thing, it was a TB hospital and that's why they had all the deaths there. It has a rich and interesting history. I know people who claim to have seen some weird stuff. It's been featured on several of those ghost busting shows, and has never been dis-proven.  This a pic of Waverly

[BlueMeanie]

Well that was...disappointing.

For the last three episodes I've just been waiting for something interesting to happen and then it didn't.

[Hana Chan]

Worst. Season. Finale. Ever.

Not because it was especially bad. It was boring. And badly paced. And boring.

This is what happens when a show focuses every season on upping the ante rather than actually creating a coherent story that actually makes sense and build some real tension. I never really got into the whole Darkness thing and never really saw her as so intimidating (actually spent most of the time thinking that the costuming dept should have sprung for a decent bra for her). And bringing God into the mix (however much I adore Chuck) was just bound to disappoint. It was nice to see Dean save the day, but he basically was reduced to showing "hey, humanity and creation is pretty nice so don't destroy us okay tx!". 

Bringing back Mary was a bit of WTF? I guess that with JDM so busy they couldn't drag him back but why not give them back Adam? And of course leaving us not knowing if Sam was killed by a brand new introduced character? Meh.

Please Chuck... let's get back to the basics next season. No more bigger and badder threats. Just hunting things and saving people (starting with Sam please).

[KirkB]

I liked it. Though I was a bit confused by the plan. Gather up a ton of souls to feed to Amara (who explicitly EATS souls) in order to kill her? I mean, I get maybe they were trying to overload her or something, but it still sounds like kind of a risk. Hey, let's make the already unstoppable entity even stronger.

Considering the death of God would have wiped out creation it kind of had to end this way. And the sibling rivalry aspect of it worked for me since it paralleled a lot of the kinds of problems Sam and Dean have. In the end, no matter how screwed up things are, you're still family.

I do agree with everyone who says they wasted an awful lot of time on the Lady of Letters. I get setting up season 12 and all, but instead of spending so many scenes with this strange woman in her strange house, doing things I was not particularly interested in or curious about, while waiting to get back to God and the potential end of the world was frustrating. For that matter, whoever she was reporting to had some really skewed priorities. "Hey, the sun is going out. It looks like the end is here, so go to Kansas and pick up those Winchester boys."

Edited May 26, 2016 by KirkB

[Goldmoon]

Anarchy, word to your entire post! 

[NoWillToResist]

23 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

 And of course leaving us not knowing if Sam was killed by a brand new introduced character? Meh.

 

...but does anyone actually think Sam was killed? IMO there's no suspense to any season finale if the cliffhanger is the fate of Sam and/or Dean...

[Binns]

9 minutes ago, NoWillToResist said:

...but does anyone actually think Sam was killed? IMO there's no suspense to any season finale if the cliffhanger is the fate of Sam and/or Dean...

Well, it would be interesting to me if he was killed and is in the Empty- they haven't done that. But I still think it was an warning shot and that he's fine. And someone said above that now that the British MoL have targeted the Winchesters they can expect to go up in flames...that made me laugh but it's probably true! 

[Myrelle]

I was actually wondering if Dean was sent to the Empty and that's where Mary is. Or are they planning to bring Mary back as a regular/recurring character?-because if she was resurrected, then they would have to deal with her and that issue.

[Binns]

31 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I was actually wondering if Dean was sent to the Empty and that's where Mary is. Or are they planning to bring Mary back as a regular/recurring character?-because if she was resurrected, then they would have to deal with her and that issue.

I agree with an above poster - I wouldn't want her to be a regular/recurring character. I like the brothers doing their thing on their own (and with Cas) and I think if Mary is back it wouldn't be something that could be intermittent- like she would end up living at the bunker. I can't imagine she would be off on her own hunting. Dean wouldn't stand for it. 

[McKinley]

I liked the ep much more than I expected to. 

I am satisfied with the God/Darkness resolution - it was the ending that I thought would be most appropriate to the storyline, but I didn't expect SN to go there and resolve a season arc through talking rather than fighting. A happy ending, where everybody lived. 

Totally thought I'd be rolling my eyes at the farewell scene because I "knew" Dean wouldn't actually die - but, nope, they got me right in the feels. Especially, I think, because it was different this time because nobody was fighting or resisting it. There was no denial or argument - or, really, hope - on the characters' parts, just resignation. 

Loved Sam being the only one who did not give up.  I like the turn in his character this season of always keeping saving people at the forefront, and never giving up.

I loved Dean speaking in brogue!  But the magic word was ... haggis?  Someone please tell me I (and the closed captions) heard that wrong.

ETA: And I guess Lucifer is not dead. I hope we don't see him in S12. 

Edited May 26, 2016 by McKinley

[Binns]

3 minutes ago, McKinley said:

I liked the ep much more than I expected to. 

I am satisfied with the God/Darkness resolution - it was the ending that I thought would be most appropriate to the storyline, but I didn't expect SN to go there and resolve a season arc through talking rather than fighting. A happy ending, where everybody lived.

Totally thought I'd be rolling my eyes at the farewell scene because I "knew" Dean wouldn't actually die - but, nope, they got me right in the feels. Especially, I think, because it was different this time because nobody was fighting or resisting it. There was no denial or argument - or, really, hope - on the characters' parts, just resignation. 

Loved Sam being the only one who did not give up.  Like the turn in his character this season of always keeping saving people at the forefront, and never giving up.

I loved Dean speaking in brogue!  But the magic word was ... haggis?  Someone please tell me I (and the closed captions) heard that wrong

You heard correctly! Oh, Rowena. 

I agree that the cemetery scene was really moving.  It was poignant and really sort of nice to see Sam and Dean accept that this was the way it had to be and not swear to bring the other back by any means necessary. I think they really got shaken by what they unleashed on the world this time and maybe evaulated the consequences of their past actions with more clarity. 

I also liked that Dean was able to come say goodbye (or so he thought) to Mary when in 2.04 (Children Shouldn't Play with Dead Things) he was pretty dismissive of the gravesite. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, NoWillToResist said:

So I find myself torn. On the one hand, it's nice to have (IMO) definitive confirmation that Dean/Cas is, and will remain, familial so I guess thanks for that, show. And thanks for having Dean reiterate that Cas is family and specifically a brother; there can be no higher compliment from Dean. :)  Can we get back to them having scenes together now?

That said, I found the way Misha played Cas in that car scene very interesting. He seemed...disappointed. So, am I to come away from this scene understanding that Cas is IN love with Dean, knows it, and was disappointed (though not surprised) to be "brother zoned"? Or was that a bit of Misha seeping through, knowing that there would be howls of outrage and sadness and anger from a certain segment of the fandom?

I also would like to send a virtual (gentle) smack upside Jensen's head though because that scene did not remotely clarify why Dean was more affected by Cas's possession than Sam. If they both view Cas as a brother, then why the difference in reactions? I was fine with my fanwanky explanation that Dean feels more responsible for his loved ones but Jensen basically said there'd be more clarification in the finale which, IMO, most certainly did not happen.

Bah. Whatever. Hopefully TPTB will let Cas back into the Winchester sandbox in S12..

Jensen may not have seen a final cut of the episode before it aired. Maybe there was more to that conversation that was cut so we could spend that all important time seeing Ms Richy McHitman super fancy house, private jet and her child and FUCK THAT, pfft. 

That said, there was nothing in that car conversation that explained why Dean was more worried than Sam unless Sam doesn't think of Cas as his best friend like Dean does and Dean was just speaking as a "we" because "I" was too much for Dean to say.  I mean, it's not like Dean has never told Cas before that he's like a brother to him and that  he's family and that Dean needs him. I'm just not really seeing a material difference.  "Let's go, Cas".  I don't think Dean was like "Okay I have to get Cas in the car to tell him he's my brother" He just wanted Cas with him when the end of the world came.

Not only that, but the conversation in the car happened before Dean was heading off to be a soul bomb. IMO, the hugs between Dean and Cas are totally different than the hugs between Dean and Sam. 

Dean maintains a "big brother" vibe with Sam. But with Cas, look at Dean's face. It's just different. Completely different. It's a different kind of love. And they can try to "bro-zone" it all they want if only Misha and Jensen would stop the extended staring at each other I might be able to believe it. Thus my occasional shipper goggles remain fully in place.  YMMV

*****************************************************

Anyway, on to Mary and Dean

I'm thinking that Amara sent Dean back to the house in Lawrence. The sun was just setting before Sam and Cas got back to the Bunker. But it was pitch dark and Dean's GPS didn't seem to be working. So maybe Dean is out of time again. Maybe Dean is actually wherever Mary is versus Mary being sent to Dean. If Mary is in the present time then IMO she won't remember what happened.

[Aeryn13]

I`m happy that there was no bait and switch and I did like that Amara got a happy ending but also not happy it was somewhat anticlimactic. I`m just not and never will be a fan of Yellow Crayon scenes. Was there any way to get the same result for Chuck and Amara without using that construct? I don`t know. Was there a way to execute it better? I most certainly believe so. 

So, in the end, it wasn`t quite the big active BDH moment I have always wished for when it comes to Dean since it wasn`t as flashy and in your face and thus still can be easily ignored or belittled. But they did make an effort to have him be the one who technically saved God and the entire universe. Even if it was just through talking. Sigh. It`s difficult for me to pin down how that all really makes me feel. Probably gonna need a pie chart for it.

Mary`s return baffles me. Bringing back a character that has been killed off is one thing but one that died so many years ago, who has missed everything about the protagonists`lives, whose death shaped them into who they are now, I`m not sure that is a gap that can be breached. Not even sure Mary has any awareness  on the time passed.

The Sam "cliffhanger", are they kidding me? Yes, I totally believe the character is dead. Because I have lived under a rock all my life. 

What`s worse, though, is that actress. I suffered through each of her scenes for an entire year on Vampire Diaries and here she is introduced - why spent so much valuable screentime on that? - and immediately, I get the same vibes. Not to mention her diatribe was just silly. Yes, the Winchesters have screwed the world a couple times, thanks for noticing, but by making the mytharcs so big and biblical, the Winchesters have also ceased to be normal humans as well. They are now people who counsel God and his son/his sister or save God`s life. So really, who the fuck are you, British MOL? That`s like some random desk clerk at MI6 walking up to James Bond and calling him out on various shenanigans. I mean, the points might be valid but it still reeks of "go away, puny human". 

In the end, the Finale had some moments even I got a little verklempt. Dean`s theme does that to me. 

[Diane]

8 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I`m happy that there was no bait and switch and I did like that Amara got a happy ending but also not happy it was somewhat anticlimactic. I`m just not and never will be a fan of Yellow Crayon scenes. Was there any way to get the same result for Chuck and Amara without using that construct? I don`t know. Was there a way to execute it better? I most certainly believe so. 

So, in the end, it wasn`t quite the big active BDH moment I have always wished for when it comes to Dean since it wasn`t as flashy and in your face and thus still can be easily ignored or belittled. But they did make an effort to have him be the one who technically saved God and the entire universe. Even if it was just through talking. Sigh. It`s difficult for me to pin down how that all really makes me feel. Probably gonna need a pie chart for it.

Mary`s return baffles me. Bringing back a character that has been killed off is one thing but one that died so many years ago, who has missed everything about the protagonists`lives, whose death shaped them into who they are now, I`m not sure that is a gap that can be breached. Not even sure Mary has any awareness  on the time passed.

The Sam "cliffhanger", are they kidding me? Yes, I totally believe the character is dead. Because I have lived under a rock all my life. 

What`s worse, though, is that actress. I suffered through each of her scenes for an entire year on Vampire Diaries and here she is introduced - why spent so much valuable screentime on that? - and immediately, I get the same vibes. Not to mention her diatribe was just silly. Yes, the Winchesters have screwed the world a couple times, thanks for noticing, but by making the mytharcs so big and biblical, the Winchesters have also ceased to be normal humans as well. They are now people who counsel God and his son/his sister or save God`s life. So really, who the fuck are you, British MOL? That`s like some random desk clerk at MI6 walking up to James Bond and calling him out on various shenanigans. I mean, the points might be valid but it still reeks of "go away, puny human". 

In the end, the Finale had some moments even I got a little verklempt. Dean`s theme does that to me. 

Just when we got rid of her on Vampire Diaries here she is, damn. 

I really liked this, I was kind of happy not to be sobbing through the whole thing.  I got misty eyed at the cemetery, but they guys are good at bring that out even if the writing isn't.  This has been one of my favorite seasons, I loved quite a few of the episodes, especially the motw ones.  Baby, Just My Imagination Into the Mystic and Red Meat, probably could easily come up with more.  So glad Amara is gone hopefully never to return, all I wanted to do for her was to go buy her a good bra. Very glad we have Cas back and always love snarky Crowley.  Hopeful for season 12.

[catrox14]

I just don't see how bringing back Mary alive is useful.

  If Dean gets to really say goodbye to Mary that's great and he knows maybe that she should be able to go to Heaven now. But the thing is that Dean knew that Mary made a deal that snowballed their lives. That memory wasn't erased. So if Amara thinking that Dean needed Mary alive now....I dunno. This might just really fuck up Dean's entire psyche because he adjusted to life without her.  Not only that if she is alive then what does that do to the deal she made with Azazel.  What's the ripple effect

Dean wished for Mary to have never died ONCE but he never wanted her to come back from the dead. Dean KNOWS their is a price for that. 

I don't get it.  

[KirkB]

Amara couldn't do that anyway could she? Her whole thing was destroying. Ending light. Ending life. I never got the impression she could create, or restore, life. Now, sure, she could've just asked Chuck to do it. But the scene made it out to be a gift from her.

I did find it a little odd that Chuck and Amara left Dean out in the middle of nowhere, regardless of whether they actually gave him his mom back. I mean, would zapping him back to the bunker have taken that much effort?

And yeah, Dean and Sam dealing with the Men of Letters, when they just finished hanging out with God, is a BIT of a narrative letdown.

Edited May 26, 2016 by KirkB

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, KirkB said:

Amara couldn't do that anyway could she? Her whole thing was destroying. Ending light. Ending life. I never got the impression she could create, or restore, life. Now, sure, she could've just asked Chuck to do it. But the scene made it out to be a gift from her.

I don't think Chuck would have agreed to do that.

Amara can manipulate time. That's why I'm leaning towards Amara sending Dean back in time to the night Mary died or the day Ghost!Mary died because she is wearing the same nightgown.  This could potentially literally change and reset everything.

OR Dean actually is dead and he's with Mary in Heaven and he doesn't know it.  Maybe that's why Jensen said there was a conversation with a certain person that could put Dean on the path to Heaven.

[McKinley]

36 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Not to mention her diatribe was just silly. Yes, the Winchesters have screwed the world a couple times, thanks for noticing, but by making the mytharcs so big and biblical, the Winchesters have also ceased to be normal humans as well. They are now people who counsel God and his son/his sister or save God`s life. So really, who the fuck are you, British MOL? That`s like some random desk clerk at MI6 walking up to James Bond and calling him out on various shenanigans. I mean, the points might be valid but it still reeks of "go away, puny human". 

Yes, and I liked that Jared acted that scene with just that attitude. He had no fear of her or her threats or her gun. He wanted to mourn the loss of his brother, and she was a nuisance in his way, not a threat. 

[sarthaz]

Sad to see Sam killed off the show. He was an interesting supporting character.

[Omegamom]

I liked the "Yeah.  You love chick flicks." moment.

I liked it, frankly.  I liked that the sun was going out.  I liked the whole family thing.

I called it that Lady Whatsername is a Woman of Letters, heh.

y'know, it wasn't big and dire and OMG-what-have-they-done?!, but I liked it.  Aside from the end of the world, it was...intimate.  Personal.  A departure from the over the top cliffhangers.  It felt...mature.  And I'm a sucker for yellow crayon moments.  Glad that Dean was able to reach Amara, glad that he was the hero.

And all the goodbyes did get to me (though I didn't cry).  It was melancholic, sorrowful, resigned.

[sarthaz]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think Chuck would have agreed to do that.

Amara can manipulate time. That's why I'm leaning towards Amara sending Dean back in time to the night Mary died or the day Ghost!Mary died because she is wearing the same nightgown.  This could potentially literally change and reset everything.

OR Dean actually is dead and he's with Mary in Heaven and he doesn't know it.  Maybe that's why Jensen said there was a conversation with a certain person that could put Dean on the path to Heaven.

Yeah, I don't know where he is, but it's definitely somewhere outside of normal.  That's why they show him not getting cell reception.  Either he's back in time without cell towers or he's on a non-Earthly plane.

[Ferniesfreckles]

11 hours ago, AuntTora said:

Finally, Rowena's wardrobe and whole...thing. At some point it just struck me as funny she walks around in public like that.

Rowena fancies herself a Grand Lady. Why wouldn't she wear fancy clothes and full make-up? I like it. 

I liked the actual "Lady" as well. At least it's something different. All jeans and flannel shirts and scruffy looks and muscle cars and cheap hotels and roadside diners is dreary. Especially after 11 years. So if the Brit Men Of Letters will be the new foe next year, great. 

I've also always thought that the human adversaries were way more dangerous than all the supernatural stuff. Henrickson? Bella Talbot? the Steins and especially that nut, Gordon Walker. 

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

Yeah, I don't know where he is, but it's definitely somewhere outside of normal.  That's why they show him not getting cell reception.  Either he's back in time without cell towers or he's on a non-Earthly plane.

Yup, and it was fully dark out wherever he was and sure the sun was setting but this was full on night.

If she is more than an apparition and it's well and truly Mary Winchester circa 1983 then maybe Sam is not actually a man of letters and he's not in the Bunker. I'm picturing Mary appearing and Sam disappearing.  Ms MoL looked awfully confused after she fired the gun. We didn't hear Sam cry out in pain or hear his body drop to the floor. But we heard a clinking sound that sound like a bullet hitting the ground.

I think it's weird that she had a gun that was almost like Dean's. I mean it had etching on it. That actively FUCKING OFFENDS ME because Dean's gun is unique and HOW DARE THEY. Which made me wonder again about why they would take the time to show that kid because why would we care and why does she have nearly the same gun as Dean? And I'm kind of back to thinking that might be Dean's kid. I don't get it.

I've got a terrible feeling that Amara reset EVERYTHING by Mary not being dead. Maybe that's why we saw the boys life up on her stalker wall. That their lives have been completely changed now and we are left with that nod to their entire past. I REALLY WANT TO BE WRONG. Because that will piss me off more than I can say.

[Triskan]

So guys, I'm curious, which one would you prefer for Sam at the beginning of next season : 

1 - Shot dead and sent into the Empty by Billie (c'moooon, we need to see the Empty after so much build-up) ?

2 - Injured, brought back, isolated, incarcerated and experimented on in London by the British chapter of the MoL ?

[tricknasty]

Paraphrasing

Dean: How am I going to get the bomb to her?

Crowley: Well we could always shove it up your...

Dean pulls a gun on Rowena:

Rowena: So that was a gun in your pocket.

Can we keep Crowley and Rowena? They are hilarious!

[Binns]

Ooh, that reminds me. How about Billie & Crowley, sitting in a tree?!

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Ferniesfreckles said:

I liked the actual "Lady" as well. At least it's something different. All jeans and flannel shirts and scruffy looks and muscle cars and cheap hotels and roadside diners is dreary. Especially after 11 years. So if the Brit Men Of Letters will be the new foe next year, great. 

 

But that is what makes this show different. It's the hidden Americana. The charm of the show is in those "dreary" things for me.  The boys wearing better clothes now and again is great. I accepted the Bunker because it WAS a safe haven for the boys mostly, it was hidden in the middle of Kansas. We had s7 without the Impala. There is no fucking way the show dumps it again. They slip in and out of towns because of their 'dreariness'. That keeps them off the radar for all but apparently the MoL.

[NoWillToResist]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Dean maintains a "big brother" vibe with Sam. But with Cas, look at Dean's face. It's just different. Completely different. It's a different kind of love. And they can try to "bro-zone" it all they want if only Misha and Jensen would stop the extended staring at each other I might be able to believe it. Thus my occasional shipper goggles remain fully in place.  YMMV

 

Oh, I hear ya. My 'thank you' to TPTB for having Dean refer to Cas as a brother in the season finale is simply a thanks for closure. That scene told me, in the nicest possible way, that any romantic Dean/Cas stuff will only happen in fanfic. Doesn't mean that Dean/Cas scenes won't feel loaded with emotional intensity and whatever (and I blame Jensen and Misha for that :)) but at least I can talk myself out of any thought of the show "going there" with these two. Dean hadn't referred to Cas as a brother in years, so I thought "maybe they're leaving it open on purpose and flying them under the radar by using the vague 'family' adjective" but here in 11x23, they had Dean refer to Cas as a brother. Cut and dried, IMO. So, I can carry on with my days, enjoying their scenes and the wonderful fanfic out there, without spending a moment wondering "are TPTB going to....?" That's what I'm grateful for; no longer wondering. All I can hope is that they reinstate the whole "Team Free Will" concept and let Cas back into the boys' lives and story.

As far as the difference in the way Dean and Cas interact, I think it has to do with the fact that Cas and Dean's relationship kind of defies description (and I think that's one of the reasons why I love it so much). I mean, a fucking ANGEL OF THE LORD has basically thrown millenia (billenia?) of programming out the window and thrown his loyalty and his everything towards this one mortal man. And Dean, whose self-worth could maybe half-fill a thimble, is fully aware of this and is...humbled? Grateful? Overwhelmed? They would die for each other yet Cas *isn't* his brother; Cas has no obligation to love or support Dean due to blood ties but he has chosen to do so of his own free will and Dean reciprocates that loyalty (IMO). Dean apparently isn't in love with Cas and Cas isn't actually family, so how on earth can Dean classify him? As the only thing that means anything to Dean: brother. You can't find a moniker that would mean more to Dean.

It's touching as hell to me. Profound bond, indeed.

Edited May 26, 2016 by NoWillToResist

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, NoWillToResist said:

Dean hadn't referred to Cas as a brother in years, so I thought "maybe they're leaving it open on purpose and flying them under the radar by using the vague 'family' adjective" but here in 11x23, they had Dean refer to Cas as a brother. Cut and dried, IMO. So, I can carry on with my days, enjoying their scenes and the wonderful fanfic out there, without spending a moment wondering "are TPTB going to....?" That's what I'm grateful for; no longer wondering. All I can hope is that they reinstate the whole "Team Free Will" concept and let Cas back into the boys' lives and story.

He referred to Cas as someone who loves him as recently as s10(the people who love me pulled me back) when he was fighting with Cole).  I never thought Destiel would become canon on screen with a kiss or anything like that. IMO this is the closest I will get.

Dean just put Cas right up there with Sam.

I was always kidding about Dean saying "I love you". Dean hasn't said that to anyone other than Mary. He's never said it to Sam. He didn't even say it to Amara and Chuck when he was talking about Sam. But FOR ME IMO, 'You're my best friend. You're my brother.' and basically TELLING Cas he's riding shotgun on a beer run. That's Dean Winchester speak for 'I love you'.  And that's plenty good Destiel for me :).

[NoWillToResist]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He referred to Cas as someone who loves him as recently as s10(the people who love me pulled me back) when he was fighting with Cole).  I never thought Destiel would become canon on screen with a kiss or anything like that. IMO this is the closest I will get.

Dean just put Cas right up there with Sam.

I was always kidding about Dean saying "I love you". Dean hasn't said that to anyone other than Mary. He's never said it to Sam. He didn't even say it to Amara and Chuck when he was talking about Sam. But FOR ME IMO, 'You're my best friend. You're my brother.' and basically TELLING Cas he's riding shotgun on a beer run. That's Dean Winchester speak for 'I love you'.  And that's plenty good Destiel for me :).

Exactly.  The show is about Sam and Dean, but Dean has let Cas into his family (i.e. his heart). Dean and Cas love each other. Now, if we can just get them to have scenes together again, I will be satisfied. ;)

[catrox14]

Holy crap. I just had a thought.

Billie said she collected souls from the Veil. What if Mary was one of the souls she collected that Chuck extracted from Dean. Maybe once Amara merged with Chuck again she could actually create a rebuilt vessel for Mary and then Chuck put Mary's soul in it.

Or what if Chuck left Mary's soul in Dean  and Dean is hearing Mary's soul crying for help and it's making him think he sees Mary but it's a projection of some kind.

[ZennyKenny]

More thoughts:

That talk with Amara and the old lady... THAT'S what I've been waiting for all season. For Amara to have a meaningful interaction with another human. Thank you.

I'm honestly a little disappointed that no one went to the Empty. I wanted to see it. And I wanted it to be more than an 'empty' threat.

What was with the looks between Crowley & Billie? Are they crushing on each other or am I not remembering a previous interaction from them?

I was kinda hoping that the sun effect would have been... well, better. Like similar to the black hole sun thingie on the trailer title card.

[trxr4kids]

I'm not even sure wtf this was. It felt like Charmed meets one of those movies where everybody is courageously dying or tragically grieving with commercials for an old BBC show scrunched together with muzak playing in the background. Somebody needs to join CGI-anonymous.