Flip Or Flop - General Discussion

[chessiegal]

I saw a bunch of repeat episodes today and yesterday, and one thing I liked seeing was a 2015 episode where they donated the kitchen cabinets to Habitat for Humanity. I wish they would do that more. Usually they smash they cabinets to pieces, even when they're in good condition. 

Yes - exactly! A pet peeve of mine.  I don't mind the required smashing drama when the cabinets are crap, but functional not to your taste cabinets?  Someone would be glad to have them. The latest "This Old House" renovation has gone out of their way to emphasize they are saving and recycling what they cannot use.

 

Edited January 24, 2016 by chessiegal

[Saylii]

question: what is the theory behind the bank auctions where people buy sight unseen? why does the bank expect people to buy a house without being able to inspect it, especially knowing the damage people are doing to forclosed homes, and the risk they are taking that it could be a total teardown. its like buying a car without being able to look at it or drive it or pop the hood. that just seems completely unethical and like the bank is getting away with screwing people. if the bank owns the property it has to be insured so I wonder if even though they buy as is, insurance covers some of the damages...I know in one episode they talked about getting 10 or 15k for damages thru the insurance,

Generally the bank auctions sell to investors who have cash on hand to renovate it. Then the investor will sell at a profit or rent it out. The general Joe Schmoe who is buying a house to live in isn't buying that house at a bank auction. Joe Schmoe is also not going to get a mortgage for a bank auction property.

Once T&C buy a house, they have the option to get home insurance for it while they own it. I assume they do that for the few months they own the property just in case it gets vandalized, like we saw, or more likely in case it burns down during construction or gets it by an earthquake.

[CaptainCranky]

I just watched one of their reruns and have the following thoughts.

1. California real estate is nuts and it keeps getting worse.

2. The cost for construction/remodling is not realistic especially for CA.

[topanga]

Is it wrong that I love the scenes where Christina gets startled by bugs, rodents, and sometimes people? Her screams and expletives crack me up. I rewind the scene over and over.

 

I like it partly because it's one of the most genuine aspects of the show. Even if Tarek and Christina know that a house has bugs or mice, a bug flying to Christina's mouth--and her swallowing it then gagging--is pure gold. 

 

And I like it because I know I'd be react exact same way, if not worse, when confronted with the some of the things that the two of them face.

 

I'm glad Izzy was on the new episode this month. He's my favorite contractor. He has the most personality of any of the guys he uses, and he calls Tarek on his low estimates. Is he Latino? I heard him speak Spanish once (well, he said 'Hola"), and he looks kinda Latino. His last name certainly could be Latino. Is Israel a common Spanish name?

[Mu Shu]

Is it wrong that I love the scenes where Christina gets startled by bugs, rodents, and sometimes people? Her screams and expletives crack me up. I rewind the scene over and over.

I like it partly because it's one of the most genuine aspects of the show. Even if Tarek and Christina know that a house has bugs or mice, a bug flying to Christina's mouth--and her swallowing it then gagging--is pure gold.

And I like it because I know I'd be react exact same way, if not worse, when confronted with the some of the things that the two of them face.

I'm glad Izzy was on the new episode this month. He's my favorite contractor. He has the most personality of any of the guys he uses, and he calls Tarek on his low estimates. Is he Latino? I heard him speak Spanish once (well, he said 'Hola"), and he looks kinda Latino. His last name certainly could be Latino. Is Israel a common Spanish name?

Christina has such a poker face, but she has that disgusted lip curl she can't control when a place is funky. Plus she narrows her eyes. I get a kick out of her disgusted reactions, too. Some of those places have to smell of old fomented....stuff. Christina can do no wrong in my book.

[Maya]

Just watched the one where Christina holds an open house for a $1 million+ house wearing skin tight black jeans with zippers on the legs. Sigh.

[selhars]

1) The number one thing that bothers me about house flipping shows is the unrealistically low construction and contractor costs, for labor and materials. I just watched a FOF show where the contractor (the bald white guy, not Israel) -- gave a quite of 9K for all new plumbing AND a new roof……and said rewiring the entire house would be 2K. Uh Excuse me. In what world? I know contractor give costs breaks to flippers they work with all the time, but they still have to make SOME money on the job. I just don't see how they get the jobs done for as little as they do.

 

There was a flipping show Flip This House and one of the flippers was Rudy Martinez in LA. He worked with almost only Hispanic contractors and the dirt cheap rates he paid them were so unrealistically low it was ridiculous.

 

Labor and materials CANNOT possibly be that cheap in LA and Southern California. I think the profit margins should be a lot tighter than they let on. They give the numbers so I guess they're not lying, but I have my own personal doubts about some of the numbers we're shown.

 

2) Tarek and Christina are partners with a money guy. So are lots of flippers. One partner has the money, the other has the real estate and rehabbing expertise -- they get together and flip houses. One side is the relatively silent money guy who gets a return on his investment. The other side has the know how, but needs the money man for the financing. It's no great mystery. 

 

3) I like Christina's design and decorating choices -- for the most part. I've only seen one floor that I didn't like, hated actually. Some laminate, fake white washed faded barn wood look all through the house. Thought that was a real miss. But other than than her decorating is basic midrange flip, appeal to the masses style. Nothing special. But there's also nothing wrong with that. It gets the job done. And as for the staging, I don't know that most flippers stage to the extent we see on TV.

 

4) The "buyers" and house hunters don't even phase me because I presume that's all fake anyway. The sign goes up for the open house, and if you're willing to be filmed you can come through, whether you're interested in buying or a lookie-loo, who cares. Production just has a scene to film.

 

Also, unless the production crew is just following them around for nothing, I'd imagine the scenes where we see them win a house at auction -- OR -- making a bid by phone -- must be recreated. Because if not, how would the crew know they're going to get a house that day. AND we never see them go out and NOT get the house. So I think those scenes are set up, the scenes where Tarek and Christina supposedly do some actual work seem to be set up just for taping. So a whole lot of this show comes off as s smoke and mirrors to me.

Edited January 29, 2016 by selhars

[Maharincess]

Christina seems like a snob to me.

I'm sick of "ew, that's disgusting" in every single episode. She also uses the word tons way too often and improperly, there's always tons of light, tons of storage, tons of space, once there were tons of feedback on a house. That's one of my biggest pet peeves, to me its like saying that I have gallons of storage or pounds of light in my house.

Shows like this are interesting so I don't understand why this show has ao much repetitive, fake scripted nonsense in every single episode. These people are not actors and that shows in every fake scene.

The show isn't bad but in my opinion would be so much better without the obvious fakeness.

I do laugh when they show Tarek and Christina fake working though.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Maharincess

[ByaNose]

I didn't like the stainless steel tile in the kitchen or bathroom. It seems too trendy. Of course, they were looking for young buyers which I'm not at age 50. It was another small which they'd seem to be doing a lot of. I guess to to get the jobs done faster since they are flipping so many at once. I thought the hardwood floor looked lighter then picked out beforehand. I wanted it to be darker which I thought they had picked but on tv it looked light gray/brown. All in all, a nice little house with another huge price tag. BTW! They sure dump their kids off at the babysitter a lot. How is the daughter supposed to learn about flipping if she can't tag along?! LOL!!!

[Maharincess]

She seems really snobby to me. She seems like the kind of woman who looks down on other women for not wearing the "right" shoes or cheap clothing or whatever.

I've just always gotten a snooty vibe from her.

[chessiegal]

I like both Tarek and Christina. I follow them on FB. I think they are business savvy. If they are not a loving happy family, they are doing an Oscar worthy job of faking it. I wish them all the happiness in the world.

[Broderbits]

Maharincess said:

 

The show isn't bad but in my opinion would be so much better without the obvious fakeness.

 Ha! The whole network would be better off without the phoniness, but that's not going to happen anytime soon. Compare T&C "fake working" with Chip Gaines' antics on Fixer Upper, and this show looks like Shakespeare.

[Honey]

Generally the bank auctions sell to investors who have cash on hand to renovate it. Then the investor will sell at a profit or rent it out. The general Joe Schmoe who is buying a house to live in isn't buying that house at a bank auction. Joe Schmoe is also not going to get a mortgage for a bank auction property.

Once T&C buy a house, they have the option to get home insurance for it while they own it. I assume they do that for the few months they own the property just in case it gets vandalized, like we saw, or more likely in case it burns down during construction or gets it by an earthquake.

The one where the insurance paid out was vandalized by the prior owners before T&C bought it.  There was concrete in all the toilets and bathtubs.  Some insurance paid, but it don't think it could have been T&C's because it happened before they even owned the house.

 

I love Christina, she absolutely cracks me up.

Edited January 30, 2016 by Honey

[ravara]

How in the world are all these unpermitted additions getting built? I don't know what does on in California, but everywhere I have lived, if you even so much as start putting a step on the front porch, you get a notice on your front door to contact the city if you do not have a permit to build. I mean, there is NO WAY you are building an entire upstairs or shed out back and hauling in lumber and addition on the back without the city knowing what you're doing. I do not understand these weird building things of Cali

 

Also, how do T&C always know what wall to knock down, room to push back, etc since they have no construction knowledge? They just come in and start telling the GC lets take down this wall, open this up, blah blah blah, is this something they have learned over time or do they have more knowledge than we think?

 

T looks sooo thin now.

[ravara]

as for Christina's wardrobe, hey I don't begrudge her she's young and pretty, she should enjoy it while she can. shes got the other half of her life to wear bermudas and mu-mus.

[selhars]

Also, how do T&C always know what wall to knock down, room to push back, etc since they have no construction knowledge? They just come in and start telling the GC lets take down this wall, open this up, blah blah blah, is this something they have learned over time or do they have more knowledge than we think?

 

1) It's not that hard -- and it IS how they make they're living. Why WOULDN"T they be able to walk in and have some ideas about let's do this and let's move that -- In consultation with their contractor?

 

2) They do NOT "always know what wall to knock down, room to push back."

Just like any other buyers who plan major remodels they come in and say, "Oh let's do this and let's do that." There've been plenty of episodes where the contractor has told them, "No, we can't move that wall," or "we can only open it up this far without a beam -- but if you want it completely gone it will cost you XX.XX and a beam has to be X-by-X and that will cost XX.XX."… or "we can't move this heater, or put this panel here," etc.

 

Sometimes they'll say, to the contractor -- see if there's any duct work in this wall, if there's not then we can do this or that.

 

3) I'm sure they've flipped enough houses to have enough knowledge to basically know what they're talking about. 

It doesn't take a genius to see that if you knock out a wall you open up a given space….or if two closets are back-to-back you can take space from one, and give it to the other room, or if a closet is on one side of a bathroom you can use that space to enlarge the bathroom.

 

Also, when you've seen as many houses as they have …. If you've seen dozens of colonials or ranchers or bungalows or split levels -- that have been been in various states of remodel -- and seen what's been done and how they've been reconstructed -- you DO get to know what can be done and what can't. It's not that hard to figure out.

Edited January 30, 2016 by selhars

[mojito]

 

as for Christina's wardrobe, hey I don't begrudge her she's young and pretty, she should enjoy it while she can. shes got the other half of her life to wear bermudas and mu-mus.

She should enjoy it even if she's not pretty!

 

My favorite fake work is that final, unusually cut tile that fits perfectly into that last spot. 

 

What about your favorite transition/time passing video? The running sprinkler head? The moving clouds? The jogger? The bee on the flower? 

 

I thought the changes to this last house in Chino were pretty dramatic. Maybe it was my mood, but the new kitchen and exterior seemed especially striking. I suspect the neighborhood was kind of run down, considering they did not seem to show it and the real estate agent's remarks about other homes not being as nice.

Edited February 2, 2016 by mojito

[ravara]

@selhars you keep saying "its no big secret",  "its not that hard to figure out".... actually, it doesn't take a "genius", but it takes a certain level of knowledge which is why property brothers, fixer upper, lioli, all the other shows revolve around taking regular people to houses and telling them what CAN be done and the couples BALKING because THEY CANT SEE IT. A regular  person doesn't just walk in a house and automatically say, hey we could knock down this wall, move this laundry room (plumbing, wiring, etc), change the entire kitchen, etc. They can't see it, because they know nothing about the concept so no, it actually IS that hard to figure out.

 

Also, it IS a big secret about people having an "investor". Investor implies that they have a partner that goes in with them. That is common. Lots of people team up and go in with their money and expertise to start a business. But Pete is really not an investor. WHen you watch Shark Tank, THEY are investors. They CONTRIBUTE money to someone who has en existing business and has already invested their own time and money and have expertise in the business and know how to manage that business. As they have said many times, they are investing more in the person and their knowledge and hard work than the product. Pete is just passing the money thru two real estate agents who are giving it to a contractor to do all the work. That's NOT normal . People don't NORMALLY give money to someone just to buy and sell the house for them. Pete could just pay Izzy himself to give him a quote and then list the house himself. So unless t&c are contributing an amount of work EQUAL to the amount of money invested, they are not partners. So, In their area, where lots of people have money to do whatever they want with it, maybe pete finds it worthwhile to just sit back and take half to not have to list and sell, but most people who are flippers don't have that luxury, don't practice that way. They are construction people who get a loan and know they can do the work themselves cheap enough to make it profitable. Then they sell and keep going till they can build up a cash buy situation. So, it actually IS a big secret. I would GLADLY go solicit a high roller and tell him I will find cheap properties, get a contractor to remodel it, and then list it if I get half the profit. I would do that all day. Find the comps, buy a cheap property that has a margin of profit , buy it with his money, let the contractor build it, list it online, have a half day open house, cash a check. lol. hard work.

[Broderbits]

This kind of investing in house flippers has been going on for a long time because I remember many of the people on "Property Ladder" having silent partners backing them and that was at least 10 years ago. Most of those flippers were completely incompetent and had no idea what they were doing. I think it comes down to the old real estate maxim "location, location, location". Where housing is in high demand this is a viable business. And T&C ARE  running a business, a renovation & design business. They are the ones making the design decisions, not the contractor. They don't always use backers, but If their backers didn't have confidence in them they wouldn't be getting any money. I think they've more than proven what they can do.

[selhars]

“A regular person doesn't just walk in a house and automatically say, hey we could knock down this wall, move this laundry room (plumbing, wiring, etc), change the entire kitchen, etc.”

 

Are Tarek and Christina – who are who I was referring to  -- regular people walking into a house? OR are they professional flippers?

My comment was not referencing “A regular person” who is an non-professional flipper. It was in response to the comment “ how do Tarek and Christina always know what wall to knock down, room to push back, etc."

 

1)    They don’t always know

2)    They’re professional flippers who’ve seen and designed dozens of home remodels so I’d expect them to have the knowledge they do. If they don’t know by now -- to suggest opening up a wall to get more kitchen space – then I don’t know if they need to flippers or what they’ve been doing all these years.

3)    True, what one person finds easy to learn or comment sense – another person may not be able “to see it.” BUT just because some people ‘can’t see it” doesn’t mean it’s a rule difficult to learn for most people.

 

Also there’s DESIGN knowledge – and construction knowledge. They, Tarek and Christina, are talking about DESIGN, to the contractor – they may want a wall knocked out, window changed out for a door, or the bathroom door moved. Several times the contractor has said “we can’t move this wall”…or we can move this door but it means changing this clearance over here…or we can move that utility room but the ducts also have to be moved. T&C say this is want we want to do…the contractors says “that’s easy” – or “you can’t do that”  or “if you insist on this -- this is how we have to do it.” It’s called collaboration and consultation.

 

“@selhars you keep saying "its no big secret", "its not that hard to figure out".... actually, it doesn't take a "genius",

 

Other shows featuring regular people – who may or may not be told what to say by producers -- balking because THEY CANT SEE IT, has nothing whatsoever to do with Tarek and Christina who are professional flippers having the skill to assess what changes can be made to  home during a remodel. And those regular people not seeing it -- doesn’t mean “it actually IS that hard to figure out”. Just because THEY don’t get it, that doesn’t make it hard. And I will concede that just because someone else gets it – doesn’t make it easy. Some people have an apttiude for design.Some don't.

 

Are you saying that after dozens and dozens of flips you don’t’ think they should be able to say let’s open up the wall, or move this bathroom. You wouldn’t think they would have picked up the ability to see that – even though they’re not professional contractors?

 

“Also, it IS a big secret about people having an "investor". ….Pete is just passing the money thru two real estate agents who are giving it to a contractor to do all the work.”

 

Partner or private financier -- call Pete what you want. He provides some of the money and gets a return on his “investment”  Pete doesn’t want to OWN houses, or FLIP houses. He wants a return on his money. In my mind that makes him an “investor.” If T&C call him a partner, that's good enough for me.

 

“So, In their area, where lots of people have money to do whatever they want with it, maybe pete finds it worthwhile to just sit back and take half to not have to list and sell, but most people who are flippers don't have that luxury, don't practice that way. They are construction people who get a loan and know they can do the work themselves cheap enough to make it profitable. Then they sell and keep going till they can build up a cash buy situation. So, it actually IS a big secret.”

 

That last sentence is a complete non sequitur – having nothing to do with the rest of the paragraph.

 

“I would GLADLY go solicit a high roller and tell him I will find cheap properties, get a contractor to remodel it, and then list it if I get half the profit. I would do that all day. Find the comps, buy a cheap property that has a margin of profit , buy it with his money, let the contractor build it, list it online, have a half day open house, cash a check. lol. hard work.?

 

If you think you can be successful, why not try it? I've thought about it also and may do it in my retirement years. Remember though that Tarek is licensed realtor, so that commission is one cost he doesn't have.

 

“This kind of investing in house flippers has been going on for a long time because I remember many of the people on "Property Ladder" having silent partners backing them and that was at least 10 years ago. Most of those flippers were completely incompetent and had no idea what they were doing. I think it comes down to the old real estate maxim "location, location, location". Where housing is in high demand this is a viable business. And T&C ARE running a business, a renovation & design business. They are the ones making the design decisions, not the contractor. They don't always use backers, but If their backers didn't have confidence in them they wouldn't be getting any money. I think they've more than proven what they can do.”

 

Exactly.

Edited January 31, 2016 by selhars

[ravara]

lol. I wasn't writing an English essay, so putting two unrelated ideas in one paragraph is a symptom of internet posting.

 

as far as whether t&c NOW know what to do, after all the flips they have done, well yes, NOW im sure they do. I mean, ANYONE can learn. MY POINT is, is this a REALISTIC situation for the average, regular person. Could a regular person, like myself or my neighbor or my mom or joe blow or even your average real estate agent just go FIND a guy with money and ask him to put his money up to finance them buying an as is house and trusting them to renovate it and hire out all the work and turn a profit and pay him back within a certain amount of time. Its a risky proposition, and I don't see myself being able to do that. And the reason people who look at houses don't SEE what can be done, is because they've never done it. SO, yes, at this point Im sure T&C are more than capable or designing (if that's what you want to call making everything an open concept, granite laminate grey brown tile matching box) a house but my statement really is not relating to T&C in particular, as much as it is more referring to the overall exaggeration and fallacy on which most of HGTV's programming is based. While I like the show, its more because I like seeing I guess what new level of gross house they will encounter and walk into, and seeing what C will wear for this episode, etc. Not really because I find the show educational (unlike flea market flip where you may get design ideas) or really that entertaining (like fixer upper where at least the monotony of construction is overwhelmed by the charm of chip and jo jo's personalities). I just don't like watching people portray a scenario  which is totally unrealistic. Chip and Joanna have been redesigning homes for many years before the got a show. On lioli, the real estate agent looks for houses, the design person is actually a design person. In this scenario, it makes it sound or seem like --two real estate agents fell on hard times, went a found a rich guy to give them the money to flip houses, hired a contractor to do all the work and make tons of cash . THAT is not normal. There is A LOT more to it than that and that's what I wish they would be more revealing of, because it makes it seem like anyone could do this, and that's not the case. What happened with their first flip? You're telling me that even in the beginning, they stayed within the budget, the house sold for listed price, didn't sit on the market, the contractor didn't mess anything up, etc? What happened when they lost their investor's money? They just kept giving them money? Why are they borrowing money from all these different sources, and how are they getting loans for half a million if they were in hard times living in an apartment with no collateral? I mean, there are just too many things that don't add up, and I don't like it.  That's it. If you like it, or if people all over your town are getting backed to flip houses by rich investors, that's great. But where I live, the rich investors are the ones (like the people at the auctions) that are actually BUYING the properties and having their construction team fix it and hire a designer to come in for $1000 a tell them what needs to be done in an hour or two and give them the plans and go to work. That's not a "splitting the profit " of 100 grand kind of situation. So if that's totally normal where you live, hooray. But I don't think YOU could go do it tomorrow, even if you had a real estate license. Theres more to it.

As far as them "proving what they can do", I mean, yeah, I guess if sitting on the computer and finding houses for auction and picking out brown tile is that complicated. I guess they have "proven" they can do that. I don't see them doing much more than that. Yeah, obviously they make money but the thing is with flipping houses its much more touch and go in the beginning and you don't start out making thousands on each house. Its a learning process and most people don't have the luxury of endless cash to practice, and as I have said before, MOST people starting out, if something major or maybe even minor goes wrong, they're sunk.

 

Partner or investor, well, you can't be a partner without being an investor, but you can be an investor without being a partner. There is a difference. I personally think it's someone they knew. And I think they had consultation with design people when they first started to figure out how to do the houses. Or maybe they even have access to someone who knows design because I don't see C as knowing how to build a house. Pick out colors, yeah. Any woman can pick out matching stuff. Brown cabinets, brown floors. Tough. It doesn't really matter, I have more pressing issues In life so in the big scheme of things, I could care less. Its not politics. Its just a show. But its indicative to me of the wrong direction HGTV has gone towards creating "reality shows" as opposed to real design shows.

I don't have any desire to flip houses because I don't have any interest in it, I'd rather open a restaurant. There are too many variables that are uncontrollable, and I don't know any millionaires who would put up the money and even if they did what if I bought a house that had to be torn down, or put me in the hole? How would I pay that investor back? I sure can't go get a million dollar loan. So frankly Im more interested in the financial aspect of their business than the repetitive picking out tile aspect. That's just me. Even though I know things are produced and contrived, I look for the "reality" the show is supposedly based on and for this particular show I don't really see it.

[topanga]

 

What about your favorite transition/time passing video? The running sprinkler head? The moving clouds? The jogger? The bee on the flower?

Great question, mojito. I love watching the stager do a karate chop on one of the throw pillows. I've seen it in every episode--except for one I watched the other day, and I was very disappointed. 

 

 

 

Partner or investor, well, you can't be a partner without being an investor, but you can be an investor without being a partner. There is a difference. I personally think it's someone they knew. And I think they had consultation with design people when they first started to figure out how to do the houses. Or maybe they even have access to someone who knows design because I don't see C as knowing how to build a house. Pick out colors, yeah. Any woman can pick out matching stuff. Brown cabinets, brown floors. Tough. It doesn't really matter, I have more pressing issues In life so in the big scheme of things, I could care less. Its not politics. Its just a show. But its indicative to me of the wrong direction HGTV has gone towards creating "reality shows" as opposed to real design shows.

I don't have any desire to flip houses because I don't have any interest in it, I'd rather open a restaurant. There are too many variables that are uncontrollable, and I don't know any millionaires who would put up the money and even if they did what if I bought a house that had to be torn down, or put me in the hole? How would I pay that investor back? I sure can't go get a million dollar loan. So frankly Im more interested in the financial aspect of their business than the repetitive picking out tile aspect. That's just me. Even though I know things are produced and contrived, I look for the "reality" the show is supposedly based on and for this particular show I don't really see it.

You made some good points, ravara. But have you seen any of the Flip or Flop Follow Up shows? Of course there's still some reality show fakery, but I feel like I get a little more of the real story. I just watched an episode about a house that T & C originally listed for $749,000 that eventually sold for 6-something after the house had been on the market for 6 weeks. They mentioned that those 6 weeks cost them $65,000--I don't know if they'd taken out a loan from a bank or if this was an arrangement they had with Pete, but they admitted that this house was a Flop. On the original show, they are less willing to call a house renovation a flop, even if it hasn't sold in several weeks. 

 

And I'm right there with you I don't know any investors who can loan me a million dollars. I also don't have parents who can loan me 15-30 thousand dollars at a time, but Tarek and Christina seem to. Christina did grow up in Anaheim, Ocean County, so her parents probably have some amount of wealth. Tarek grew up in Long Beach, which isn't as ritzy, but his mom was still able to make them a big loan. 

 

I watch shows like FoF and House Hunters purely for the fantasy of it all. I don't consider them reality TV, but I like seeing a trashed house being transformed into something pretty, and I like to travel with potential buyers on fake home searches. I'm someone who goes to open houses on Sundays to look at nice houses-- even though I have no intention of moving.

[selhars]

Could a regular person, like myself or my neighbor or my mom or joe blow or even your average real estate agent just go FIND a guy with money and ask him to put his money up to finance them buying an as is house and trusting them to renovate it and hire out all the work and turn a profit and pay him back within a certain amount of time. Its a risky proposition, and I don't see myself being able to do that.

 

Why couldn’t the “average” person just do it? “Average” people start careers and jobs, businesses all over this country every day.

What’s so exceptional -- or “NOT average” -- about Chip and Joanna Gaines, or Tarek and Christina? They’re not special, and are no different from most people who start a business – based on skills they already had…and then – bust their tails – or get lucky and grow the business and branched out into other things. Chip was in construction and Jonanna has a knack for design. (Her degree was in communications – NOT design.) Tarek and Christina were already in real estate and branched out.

 

Obviously if a person already works in that field or a related job, then they have more knowledge going in, than "someone off the street." But that's no different from someone who works at a clothing store knowing how to open their own boutique, or someone who works for a fashion designer and has made contacts, knowing who to start their own clothing line, etc.

Its a risky proposition, and I don't see myself being able to do that.

 

Risky? Yes but so is starting most (if not all) businesses In this country. As for your confidence level that you could do it. I can’t speak to that.

 

I found a contractor through a friend’s recommendation – liked his work he did for me on two family houses that I oversaw the remodeling for. And I casually asked him if he’d like to maybe go in on a flip with me. I’d find the house, he’d do the work. He said, “sure.” What’s so hard about that? I don’t feel I was in a financial position to do it THEN, but IF I had pursued it I would have had my contracting partner. Is it easy to find the RIGHT house, at the right PRICE? To allow for enough margin to flip for a profit. THAT is what I think is the hard part. But still it’s nothing the average person who wants to do it – and who will do their due diligence – can’t do.

Ever see a show on CNBC called “HOW I MADE MY MILLIONS” Check it out. Plenty of stories about “average” people, who’ve started businessed and made millions.

I don't have any desire to flip houses because I don't have any interest in it, I'd rather open a restaurant.

 

OK then….. now there’s a liess risky venture than flipping…opening a restaurant.

In this scenario, it makes it sound or seem like --two real estate agents fell on hard times, went a found a rich guy to give them the money to flip houses, hired a contractor to do all the work and make tons of cash . THAT is not normal. There is A LOT more to it than that and that's what I wish they would be more revealing of, because it makes it seem like anyone could do this, and that's not the case.

 

Well then you want it to be a different show. Because that’s not what THIS show is about. But I can relate to your thoughts. Because -- to this day I wish "House Hunters" would be honest about the fact that the house search we see is fake, and the buyers are already in escrow on the house they've chosen…and that "Designed to Sell" hadn't totally fudged the remodeling costs on the show, or that Love it or List It wouldn't ALWAYS have Hillary run into trouble and couple couples argue about what has to come off the list -- and they may not be moving at, but just want the remodeling done at a discount. BUT, that's the format of the show.

 

Make a pitch to Scripps Television and the production companies that make shows for HGTV. It’s worth a try. Let the programmers know how you feel. Contact them and make your suggestions. 

frankly I’m more interested in the financial aspect of their business than the repetitive picking out tile aspect.

 

Again if  that’s what you’d like to see -- T&C talking about the BUSINESS side of their BUSINESS – write the producers and HGTV and the producers say that. Let the programmers know what you’d like tosee on the show. I'm serious…. let them know what you think about the show.

 

I will say though that I’ve found the HGTV is more about the DESIGN and REMODELING part of flipping (it’s call HGTV, not a business channel.)

If you’d like to see a show about the BUSINESS of flipping pitch the idea to Fox Business Network, or Bloomberg TV or CNBC.

You're telling me that even in the beginning, they stayed within the budget, the house sold for listed price, didn't sit on the market, the contractor didn't mess anything up, etc?

 

Absolutely not saying that at all. You're original post SPECIFICALLY asked "how do Tarek and Christina always know what wall to knock down, room to push back, etc." Now you've changed that and say your point was/is that you don’t think the average person could do what T&C do.  OK, That's fine. Maybe the average person would have an aptitude for interior design…maybe they wouldn't.

I just don't like watching people portray a scenario which is totally unrealistic.

 

You must not watch much reality TV then.

 

But, as I said I can relate to being frustrated with a TV show…..

Edited February 1, 2016 by selhars

[roughing it]

If you don't like Flip or Flop, don't watch it.

We getting into horse beating here, and the horse is already dead.

[ravara]

no, not beating anything. having a conversation about the technicalities of real estate reality shows and our personal perspectives . that's what the forum is for. its not twitter.

by the same token, if you don't like the conversation, don't get involved in it.

[topanga]

I think roughing it was pointing out that people keep disagreeing on the same issues, and no amount of posting essentially the same point will ever change the other person's mind. 

 

I know the show has issues, and I know it isn't "real" (no reality show is), but I enjoy it for what it is. I like watching the homes being renovated. And l like Tarek and Christina. Taylor can be bratty sometimes, but I still like her. It's the rare kid who likes having cameras in her face on a regular basis. Especially since every time the cameras appear, it means mom and dad are about to ship her off to the babysitter's.

[ravara]

@selhars

im not saying I want to see the whole business broken down dollar for dollar, but as you said about your own experience flipping, you were not in the financial situation and that is the case for most people, so I would just like to see more about how they actually got off the ground and built a flipping business, not just jump Into a story where people are getting handed money and making money left and right and doing relatively little (on camera anyway) except picking out tile.

 

Some years ago, when the housing bubble was building, my parents built a house. By the time they had it built, the land and house had appreciated 20%, that's how fast things were growing. They lived there two years and sold it and made a substantial amount more than they paid, and built a new house. People were doing this all over the place, because real estate was appreciating so fast, if you had the money to buy a house and just fix it up, you could just wait 6 months or a year and sell it for a profit and start all over. So I know the "average" person can feasibly flip homes, but the stars have to be aligned . My parents have great credit, and they weren't making a "business" of it so to speak, having multiple loans and money invested in multiple homes. Not everyone has that, especially now with so many people having been hurt by the recession which we weren't impeded by then. It seems like EVERYONE and their brother started house flipping. Then Holmes on Homes came along and started revealing all the half ass work being done by shoddy contractors just trying to pass on looks. Im just interested in hearing the back story, I think it makes the viewer more vested in their journey and success. You know where they've been, what they've been through, etc.  In this day and age, banks are not loaning money easily, it's already been stated that they had hard times and had to move from a $7000 a month house to a small apartment, that's a huge financial loss, they were real estate agents so while they know house buying and selling, how did they learn how to renovate?  Chip and Joanna had an antique store and Chip does construction , so home renovation seems like a natural progression. Plus, they aren't flipping. The homeowners are footing the bill so they don't have loans or investor money at stake and so is Property Brothers, etc.

Like I say, years ago flipping used to be a no-brainer because real estate was going up by the second you could almost just buy a house and wait two days and sell it for a  profit. It's not like that since the recession and I would just like to know the real story behind how they got all this financial support and how they managed to get through the beginning of the business without screwing anything up .

Its kind of like the Kardashians.  I am not very sympathetic to their problems or interested in their drama, because I know how they started and how they got famous and know their over ambitious mother sold them to the media and that's the only reason they are where they are and MOST people aren't going to have that experience, even though their children are smart and beautiful, because they have more integrity than to whore themselves out for a dollar.

Not comparing T&C to them but just using them as an example of how the back story really matters, to me anyway, and determines how supportive I am of their future. Right now I get the impression they are just two rich kids who got their family and family friends to support them starting a business and eventually (considering the apparent outrageous prices of so cal homes) started turning a profit and built a business on that, but without their moms and dads and friends, they would be nowhere except where most real estate agents went after the recession , which was leasing apartments and renting homes to people who had lost theirs, or just having nothing at all. That makes me not really care if they have a house that flops. That may not be the case, but knowing different would change my perception of them . That's all. Like I say, I just like to know the back story. Just like on fixer upper, they tell how Joanna and Chip met, show his high school picture, talk about their college days, reveal a lot of their life from their farm and kids to how they started with renovating their own first home. Joanna even says, her first designs were terrible and she evolved over time. I prefer to see that journey to be invested in the characters.

Anyway, I like Christina, I think she's cute and I keep hoping they will develop the show to get deeper into their real life. I feel like I know nothing about them. Why would I care about two privileged California lookers making a buck off Mommys money?

 

It seems like all the  houses have graffiti, so I guess the best profits to be made are in not so great neighborhoods, what we here call "transitional" which Is another word for , 'trying to clean up the hood'. That 's another interesting angle, to me anyway.

 

I really like Fixer Upper, I feel like I know Chip and Joanna, like they could be my neighbors, and I like that when they renovate, having to replace plumbing or electrical isn't always a "disaster". It's just part of the process and they do it and go on and never even talk about it. They don't moan and groan about every single thing. There's joy in the process for them making the house beautiful, and joy for the owners who move in. I like that fulfillment, and can deal with a little scripting here and there like the house hunt because theres a payoff. I don't really get that with T&C. Just another dirty house, rewired and rekitchened. Like, how long can you do that? It's season 3? (4?) Time to develop the plot.

@ Topanga

well maybe it seems that way to @roughing it, but my intention isn't to change anyones mind, I certainly don't care to take on that task. lol. It's just a discussion about the show and its pros and cons, and they formulaic approach HGTV seems to have for all their shows. I know there are people who like, or hate them. I am just neutral.

and I personally like a healthy debate lol

[chessiegal]

Season 5 is in the can and they've started filming Season 6. I, for one, would like to get back to discussing the individual episodes - what this thread is for. Perhaps we could create another thread for dead horse whipping and leave this thread for it's intended purpose.

[ravara]

im not trying to persuade anyone of anything, just expressing my personal opinions about what could be improved to make the show better, which I would like because I like the show enough to want to see it go further.

 

Remember that show "Flip this House"? (was that the name of it?) WIth the neurotic guy Jeff and the girl his assistant and he flipped really swanky places....we saw his whole storyline. About him and his boyfriend, the interaction between him and his housekeeper (zoia? something like that), how he ended up moving into many of the homes he renovated to keep from having to make mortgage payments on an empty house, hos personal problems, etc. And he was a "character". He was sooo over the top it made the show. That's what Im talking about. Just flipping houses one after the other isn't that exciting.

Like Housewives. Actually watching real housewives would NOT be tv worthy. Ironing, cooking, cleaning toilets, etc. I mean, the reason it's showtime is because they fight, go to the Bahamas every other week, have (fake or real) outrageous personalities, endless turmoil and drama, etc.  I mean, if you're going to embellish things for the sake of tv, you might as well go all the way. Why the bland plain yogurt on this show? Give us some pizazz

@chessiegal

actually, the title of the forum is " ALL episodes" so, Im talking about ALL episodes. If there's something you'd rather talk about, no one is stopping you from posting, or making you read other posts. I mean, do you walk up to two people talking and tell them, "could you please shut up and talk about what I want to talk about"? You're free to talk about whatever you want. I don't know how much you can talk about each individual episode. I mean, they buy a house, they put in cabinets, they sell it. What's to talk about except the characters, the format, the "reality"

[ravara]

my goodness, the posts on this forum were like once a week. the last posts were dec24, jan 3, jan 7, just like one or two random comments. Now suddenly because someone is conversing about the merits of the show everyone needs it to stop so we can go back to talking about nothing once a week. I mean, if you have something you want to talk about, by all means, start a conversation. Don't hate.

[ravara]

so, in the show, how can people get away with listing a property as a three bedroom, when the third bedroom is in an unpermitted addition?

[MsTree]

Remember that show "Flip this House"? (was that the name of it?) WIth the neurotic guy Jeff and the girl his assistant and he flipped really swanky places....we saw his whole storyline. About him and his boyfriend, the interaction between him and his housekeeper (zoia? something like that), how he ended up moving into many of the homes he renovated to keep from having to make mortgage payments on an empty house, hos personal problems, etc. And he was a "character". He was sooo over the top it made the show. That's what Im talking about. Just flipping houses one after the other isn't that exciting

 

ravara, the show you are referring to is called "Flipping Out" with Jeff Lewis. The big difference between Jeff's show & the others is that Jeff's show was about JEFF and his personality with house flipping secondary. Flip or Flop (for one) is primarily about house flipping with their personalities being secondary. As an example, during the recession, we saw Jeff designing and/or renovating celebrity-type homes...no flipping.

[ElDosEquis]

Tarek is more palatable than she is.

 

Her speech patterns and annoying "ew" whenever she walks into a new purchase make her sound like an idiot - I say that when I come across something in the house I don't want to do, it makes my wife laugh. Also?

Who dresses like a hooker/teen/party gal to traipse thru a place where jeans, boots and long sleeves would be better?

Edited February 2, 2016 by ElDosEquis

[Broderbits]

ElDosEquis said:

 

Who dresses like a hooker/teen/party gal to traipse thru a place where jeans, boots and long sleeves would be better?

 

I don't know.........someone on tv? HGTV and DIY both have no shortage of cleavage displayed daily. If I had Christina's figure, I'd flaunt it baby!

[Mu Shu]

Jesus Christ.

Personally, my favorite (and by favorite I mean thing that pisses me off for no real reason) is when Kayla De St John Mary and Joseph carefully arranges kiwis in a bowl. Or maybe when she oh so carefully hangs a print from Big Lots or Michaels.

Or maybe when people stroll up and are all "nice paint"...."oh look. Fresh....flowers...." I know if I were spending 500 k for a small house I'd be all about the paint and stingy landscaping. Fuck the roof, electric and plumbing. Paint and fresh....flowers is where it's at. They must give these people 20 bucks and a coupon to Chipotle to pretend to be interested. B

[zivadanielle]

What happened to our thread bemoaning Tarek's flip flops, the lack of Izzy etc?  Haha!  GEEZ!

[selhars]

^^ FOF is like other HGTV shoes once we long timers have seen 3,4,5 season or more of a show -- what's left today about it.

It's the newbies who are still astounded that:

-- the budget is too small, or 

-- the prices are too low (or to high:))

-- the schedule is unrealistic

-- the bidding is too easy...

 

For those of us who have watched HGTV for almost DECADES now…..NOTHING is new.

 

FOF -- like all other HGTV shows -- is as formulaic as can be:

-- they buy a house, through bid or some kind  a purchase  (I don't think we've ever seen them lose a bid, So that right there makes me think that part is rigged.)

-- Some times they can see inside before they buy, some times they can't 

-- Tarek wants to remodel in for 30K

-- there's ALWAYS SOME combination of issues: vandalism, permits, burst pipes, mold, lead, foundation…that of course blow the budget

-- Tarek says "well I guess we have todo it. But we hadn't planned for this in the budget

-- Tarek wants basic finishes, Christina says, "No, we have to go high end, with upgraded finishes."

-- Tarek, balks….at first, but, somehow, ALWAYS comes around and is convinced to spend the money.

Edited February 4, 2016 by selhars

[chessiegal]

^^^And that formula is getting FOF and HGTV good ratings, which is why Season 5 is in the can and Season 6 is being filmed. They're not going to mess with a successful formula.

 

I like seeing their renos, so the formula is okay by me.

[selhars]

I'm not a regular, every week, very episode gotta be there viewer, but when I do watch I'm more interested in the construction and remodeling part.

Watching shows like this you CAN learn about construction, remodeling, interior design, flipping, etc

Shows like: Designing for the Sexes, Kitty Bartholomew, Chriss Casson Madden, Lynette Jennings, Christopher Lowell, Design on a Dime, Decorating Cents, Room by Room, Designers Challenge, Sensible Chic….…shows the newbies may not even know about…..are how I learned about interior design

 

ALL the remodeling shows, from FOP, Designed to Sell, Holmes on Home, Love it or List it, Spice Up My Kitchen, My Bad Bath, Income Property -- AND OF COURSE! -- THis Old House -- are how I learned:

-- about the various kinds of beams that can be put in when you replace load-bearing walls

-- that water heaters need certain amounts of clearance around them, that ceilings must have certain clearances and stairways

-- the meaning of PVC, OSB, Structural composite lumber (SCL), laminated veneer lumber ( LVL), parallel strand lumber (PSL), laminated strand lumber (LSL)….the weaknesses of particle board, the difference between various tile backer boards,

-- the pros and cons of copper versus PVC, why electrical panels may need to be replaced, why aluminum wiring is bad, that you can't have hidden junction boxes, etc

-- HOW to be your own GC: the order in which you want to have your tradesman come in, that depending on the job you may or may NOT want the plumbers and electricians, working on the same days, ie.: floors vs paint last?

Lord knows "Holmes on Homes" was an education every episode!

 

Again I've had two homes remodeled, and been watching HGTV for 20 years. So unlike others who may be new to theses kinds of shows, or new to the flipping world…..what I've learned over the decades from HGTV is exactly that ANYONE CAN do these things. 

 

Maybe all this is why the tired formula of FOF doesn't' bother me it is what it is, and I watch it for what it is.

[ShellSeeker]

Hey guys,

 

Let's stick to talking about episodes of the show on this thread. Anyone who wants to talk about the merits of FOF vs other flipping/home improvement shows is welcome to continue the discussion in the Small Talk thread.

 

Thanks!

QB

[Pickles]

Why does Tarek where flip flops so much of the time to the construction sites? Seems like a poor shoe choice. I tend to abhor flip flops anyway, lol.

[topanga]

Why does Tarek where flip flops so much of the time to the construction sites? Seems like a poor shoe choice. I tend to abhor flip flops anyway, lol.

I think he did it early on and Christina teased him about it, so he made it his thing. 

 

I haven't noticed: does he wear flip flops when he's so carefully applying the (one) bathroom tile? I wouldn't think so .

[Mu Shu]

^^^And that formula is getting FOF and HGTV good ratings, which is why Season 5 is in the can and Season 6 is being filmed. They're not going to mess with a successful formula.

I like seeing their renos, so the formula is okay by me.

I think Christina has a knack for design. I just saw one where they did glossy black tile as a back splash and took it all the way up the way. I loved that look. As a flip they can't get too design specific, but I think they create classy blank canvases.

[ByaNose]

I wasn't too crazy about the black backsplash but it's something different than the usual white. The bedrooms & bathrooms were really tiny. It seems most of their flips have been really small. I guess it's easier that way. So, the sale price was $485,000 plus an investment of $398,950 + closing of $18,000. The potential profit would $68,050. That's a pretty good flip.

[Broderbits]

That black tile going all the way up looked terrific, and I liked how they redid the patio area with the little "sitting wall".

 

I think the flips have been small simply because that's what is available at a (relatively) reasonable price. In these areas bigger houses would probably qualify for "million dollar flips". It's more interesting to me to see what they do with the small spaces; it's more useful information.

[zivadanielle]

I was not crazy when I first saw the black subway tile back-splash, but once I saw it staged it looked better...definitely a YMMV thing but yes I liked seeing something a little different. 

 

BTW, I think a new and/or different staging company was used?  Not the company with the two women who appear to be twins...

 

I also loved the sitting wall in the back. 

[chessiegal]

I was curious what the herringbone black tile pattern in the kitchen would have looked like, because I like that pattern, but I liked the final product. I liked how they carried the same theme into the bathrooms - really liked the black pebble tile in the shower.

 

I thought it was interesting at the very beginning Christina said the budget for the flip was tight so they would not be moving any walls.

 

I kept checking out Christina because she said on FB that she was pregnant with Brayden at the end of taping Season 4 but it was too early to mention it on the show, but we'll see it on Season 5.

[selhars]

As for the black tile, for a FLIP, I think it was a gamble that just happened to pay off. BUT black tile is actually what you would NOT want to do. Because it IS NOT rally considered neutral….and it's a fairly permanent item.

 

Again, did it pay off? Yes. Personally I wouldn't have taken that risk. Also with these shows being as fake as they are, for all we know more people walked in and said they DIDN'T like it. And I bet we wouldn't have been shown that. I also think the "potential buyers" on this show, are 'primed" to like whatever is done because it's new, and uh -- they're on TV. Trust me, if this very same house had been on "House Hunters" they'd have had the very same couples walk through and say they hated the black tile.

Edited February 6, 2016 by selhars

[topanga]

I'm ashamed of myself. Last night I was at a Super Bowl party, and my friend has an open doorway separating her kitchen from her family  room--the doorway is about 2 feet wide. My first thought, and I actually said this out loud, was that if the wall between the rooms wasn't a load-bearing wall, she could knock part of the wall down and make the doorway bigger. 

 

The thing is, I don't even like open concept. The words just poured out of my mouth unprovoked. 

[CocoaGoddess]

I think Christina does have an eye for design, but I'm always so shocked that their own home looks so builder basic. I know she probably doesn't have time to put her own character in the home, but it's just kind of jarring to see. 

 

I was born and raised in So Cal and it cracks me up to see SO many illegal/non permitted additions since that has been my experience with most of my family members who owned homes--they were always quick to get Donald from around the way to come out and put up some random room that never quite fit in with the house. Is this is a Cali thing, because this issue isn't as widespread on other HGTV shows I watch.