ravara

so, in the show, how can people get away with listing a property as a three bedroom, when the third bedroom is in an unpermitted addition?

my goodness, the posts on this forum were like once a week. the last posts were dec24, jan 3, jan 7, just like one or two random comments. Now suddenly because someone is conversing about the merits of the show everyone needs it to stop so we can go back to talking about nothing once a week. I mean, if you have something you want to talk about, by all means, start a conversation. Don't hate.

im not trying to persuade anyone of anything, just expressing my personal opinions about what could be improved to make the show better, which I would like because I like the show enough to want to see it go further. Remember that show "Flip this House"? (was that the name of it?) WIth the neurotic guy Jeff and the girl his assistant and he flipped really swanky places....we saw his whole storyline. About him and his boyfriend, the interaction between him and his housekeeper (zoia? something like that), how he ended up moving into many of the homes he renovated to keep from having to make mortgage payments on an empty house, hos personal problems, etc. And he was a "character". He was sooo over the top it made the show. That's what Im talking about. Just flipping houses one after the other isn't that exciting. Like Housewives. Actually watching real housewives would NOT be tv worthy. Ironing, cooking, cleaning toilets, etc. I mean, the reason it's showtime is because they fight, go to the Bahamas every other week, have (fake or real) outrageous personalities, endless turmoil and drama, etc. I mean, if you're going to embellish things for the sake of tv, you might as well go all the way. Why the bland plain yogurt on this show? Give us some pizazz @chessiegal actually, the title of the forum is " ALL episodes" so, Im talking about ALL episodes. If there's something you'd rather talk about, no one is stopping you from posting, or making you read other posts. I mean, do you walk up to two people talking and tell them, "could you please shut up and talk about what I want to talk about"? You're free to talk about whatever you want. I don't know how much you can talk about each individual episode. I mean, they buy a house, they put in cabinets, they sell it. What's to talk about except the characters, the format, the "reality"

@selhars im not saying I want to see the whole business broken down dollar for dollar, but as you said about your own experience flipping, you were not in the financial situation and that is the case for most people, so I would just like to see more about how they actually got off the ground and built a flipping business, not just jump Into a story where people are getting handed money and making money left and right and doing relatively little (on camera anyway) except picking out tile. Some years ago, when the housing bubble was building, my parents built a house. By the time they had it built, the land and house had appreciated 20%, that's how fast things were growing. They lived there two years and sold it and made a substantial amount more than they paid, and built a new house. People were doing this all over the place, because real estate was appreciating so fast, if you had the money to buy a house and just fix it up, you could just wait 6 months or a year and sell it for a profit and start all over. So I know the "average" person can feasibly flip homes, but the stars have to be aligned . My parents have great credit, and they weren't making a "business" of it so to speak, having multiple loans and money invested in multiple homes. Not everyone has that, especially now with so many people having been hurt by the recession which we weren't impeded by then. It seems like EVERYONE and their brother started house flipping. Then Holmes on Homes came along and started revealing all the half ass work being done by shoddy contractors just trying to pass on looks. Im just interested in hearing the back story, I think it makes the viewer more vested in their journey and success. You know where they've been, what they've been through, etc. In this day and age, banks are not loaning money easily, it's already been stated that they had hard times and had to move from a $7000 a month house to a small apartment, that's a huge financial loss, they were real estate agents so while they know house buying and selling, how did they learn how to renovate? Chip and Joanna had an antique store and Chip does construction , so home renovation seems like a natural progression. Plus, they aren't flipping. The homeowners are footing the bill so they don't have loans or investor money at stake and so is Property Brothers, etc. Like I say, years ago flipping used to be a no-brainer because real estate was going up by the second you could almost just buy a house and wait two days and sell it for a profit. It's not like that since the recession and I would just like to know the real story behind how they got all this financial support and how they managed to get through the beginning of the business without screwing anything up . Its kind of like the Kardashians. I am not very sympathetic to their problems or interested in their drama, because I know how they started and how they got famous and know their over ambitious mother sold them to the media and that's the only reason they are where they are and MOST people aren't going to have that experience, even though their children are smart and beautiful, because they have more integrity than to whore themselves out for a dollar. Not comparing T&C to them but just using them as an example of how the back story really matters, to me anyway, and determines how supportive I am of their future. Right now I get the impression they are just two rich kids who got their family and family friends to support them starting a business and eventually (considering the apparent outrageous prices of so cal homes) started turning a profit and built a business on that, but without their moms and dads and friends, they would be nowhere except where most real estate agents went after the recession , which was leasing apartments and renting homes to people who had lost theirs, or just having nothing at all. That makes me not really care if they have a house that flops. That may not be the case, but knowing different would change my perception of them . That's all. Like I say, I just like to know the back story. Just like on fixer upper, they tell how Joanna and Chip met, show his high school picture, talk about their college days, reveal a lot of their life from their farm and kids to how they started with renovating their own first home. Joanna even says, her first designs were terrible and she evolved over time. I prefer to see that journey to be invested in the characters. Anyway, I like Christina, I think she's cute and I keep hoping they will develop the show to get deeper into their real life. I feel like I know nothing about them. Why would I care about two privileged California lookers making a buck off Mommys money? It seems like all the houses have graffiti, so I guess the best profits to be made are in not so great neighborhoods, what we here call "transitional" which Is another word for , 'trying to clean up the hood'. That 's another interesting angle, to me anyway. I really like Fixer Upper, I feel like I know Chip and Joanna, like they could be my neighbors, and I like that when they renovate, having to replace plumbing or electrical isn't always a "disaster". It's just part of the process and they do it and go on and never even talk about it. They don't moan and groan about every single thing. There's joy in the process for them making the house beautiful, and joy for the owners who move in. I like that fulfillment, and can deal with a little scripting here and there like the house hunt because theres a payoff. I don't really get that with T&C. Just another dirty house, rewired and rekitchened. Like, how long can you do that? It's season 3? (4?) Time to develop the plot. @ Topanga well maybe it seems that way to @roughing it, but my intention isn't to change anyones mind, I certainly don't care to take on that task. lol. It's just a discussion about the show and its pros and cons, and they formulaic approach HGTV seems to have for all their shows. I know there are people who like, or hate them. I am just neutral. and I personally like a healthy debate lol

no, not beating anything. having a conversation about the technicalities of real estate reality shows and our personal perspectives . that's what the forum is for. its not twitter. by the same token, if you don't like the conversation, don't get involved in it.

lol. I wasn't writing an English essay, so putting two unrelated ideas in one paragraph is a symptom of internet posting. as far as whether t&c NOW know what to do, after all the flips they have done, well yes, NOW im sure they do. I mean, ANYONE can learn. MY POINT is, is this a REALISTIC situation for the average, regular person. Could a regular person, like myself or my neighbor or my mom or joe blow or even your average real estate agent just go FIND a guy with money and ask him to put his money up to finance them buying an as is house and trusting them to renovate it and hire out all the work and turn a profit and pay him back within a certain amount of time. Its a risky proposition, and I don't see myself being able to do that. And the reason people who look at houses don't SEE what can be done, is because they've never done it. SO, yes, at this point Im sure T&C are more than capable or designing (if that's what you want to call making everything an open concept, granite laminate grey brown tile matching box) a house but my statement really is not relating to T&C in particular, as much as it is more referring to the overall exaggeration and fallacy on which most of HGTV's programming is based. While I like the show, its more because I like seeing I guess what new level of gross house they will encounter and walk into, and seeing what C will wear for this episode, etc. Not really because I find the show educational (unlike flea market flip where you may get design ideas) or really that entertaining (like fixer upper where at least the monotony of construction is overwhelmed by the charm of chip and jo jo's personalities). I just don't like watching people portray a scenario which is totally unrealistic. Chip and Joanna have been redesigning homes for many years before the got a show. On lioli, the real estate agent looks for houses, the design person is actually a design person. In this scenario, it makes it sound or seem like --two real estate agents fell on hard times, went a found a rich guy to give them the money to flip houses, hired a contractor to do all the work and make tons of cash . THAT is not normal. There is A LOT more to it than that and that's what I wish they would be more revealing of, because it makes it seem like anyone could do this, and that's not the case. What happened with their first flip? You're telling me that even in the beginning, they stayed within the budget, the house sold for listed price, didn't sit on the market, the contractor didn't mess anything up, etc? What happened when they lost their investor's money? They just kept giving them money? Why are they borrowing money from all these different sources, and how are they getting loans for half a million if they were in hard times living in an apartment with no collateral? I mean, there are just too many things that don't add up, and I don't like it. That's it. If you like it, or if people all over your town are getting backed to flip houses by rich investors, that's great. But where I live, the rich investors are the ones (like the people at the auctions) that are actually BUYING the properties and having their construction team fix it and hire a designer to come in for $1000 a tell them what needs to be done in an hour or two and give them the plans and go to work. That's not a "splitting the profit " of 100 grand kind of situation. So if that's totally normal where you live, hooray. But I don't think YOU could go do it tomorrow, even if you had a real estate license. Theres more to it. As far as them "proving what they can do", I mean, yeah, I guess if sitting on the computer and finding houses for auction and picking out brown tile is that complicated. I guess they have "proven" they can do that. I don't see them doing much more than that. Yeah, obviously they make money but the thing is with flipping houses its much more touch and go in the beginning and you don't start out making thousands on each house. Its a learning process and most people don't have the luxury of endless cash to practice, and as I have said before, MOST people starting out, if something major or maybe even minor goes wrong, they're sunk. Partner or investor, well, you can't be a partner without being an investor, but you can be an investor without being a partner. There is a difference. I personally think it's someone they knew. And I think they had consultation with design people when they first started to figure out how to do the houses. Or maybe they even have access to someone who knows design because I don't see C as knowing how to build a house. Pick out colors, yeah. Any woman can pick out matching stuff. Brown cabinets, brown floors. Tough. It doesn't really matter, I have more pressing issues In life so in the big scheme of things, I could care less. Its not politics. Its just a show. But its indicative to me of the wrong direction HGTV has gone towards creating "reality shows" as opposed to real design shows. I don't have any desire to flip houses because I don't have any interest in it, I'd rather open a restaurant. There are too many variables that are uncontrollable, and I don't know any millionaires who would put up the money and even if they did what if I bought a house that had to be torn down, or put me in the hole? How would I pay that investor back? I sure can't go get a million dollar loan. So frankly Im more interested in the financial aspect of their business than the repetitive picking out tile aspect. That's just me. Even though I know things are produced and contrived, I look for the "reality" the show is supposedly based on and for this particular show I don't really see it.

@selhars you keep saying "its no big secret", "its not that hard to figure out".... actually, it doesn't take a "genius", but it takes a certain level of knowledge which is why property brothers, fixer upper, lioli, all the other shows revolve around taking regular people to houses and telling them what CAN be done and the couples BALKING because THEY CANT SEE IT. A regular person doesn't just walk in a house and automatically say, hey we could knock down this wall, move this laundry room (plumbing, wiring, etc), change the entire kitchen, etc. They can't see it, because they know nothing about the concept so no, it actually IS that hard to figure out. Also, it IS a big secret about people having an "investor". Investor implies that they have a partner that goes in with them. That is common. Lots of people team up and go in with their money and expertise to start a business. But Pete is really not an investor. WHen you watch Shark Tank, THEY are investors. They CONTRIBUTE money to someone who has en existing business and has already invested their own time and money and have expertise in the business and know how to manage that business. As they have said many times, they are investing more in the person and their knowledge and hard work than the product. Pete is just passing the money thru two real estate agents who are giving it to a contractor to do all the work. That's NOT normal . People don't NORMALLY give money to someone just to buy and sell the house for them. Pete could just pay Izzy himself to give him a quote and then list the house himself. So unless t&c are contributing an amount of work EQUAL to the amount of money invested, they are not partners. So, In their area, where lots of people have money to do whatever they want with it, maybe pete finds it worthwhile to just sit back and take half to not have to list and sell, but most people who are flippers don't have that luxury, don't practice that way. They are construction people who get a loan and know they can do the work themselves cheap enough to make it profitable. Then they sell and keep going till they can build up a cash buy situation. So, it actually IS a big secret. I would GLADLY go solicit a high roller and tell him I will find cheap properties, get a contractor to remodel it, and then list it if I get half the profit. I would do that all day. Find the comps, buy a cheap property that has a margin of profit , buy it with his money, let the contractor build it, list it online, have a half day open house, cash a check. lol. hard work.

as for Christina's wardrobe, hey I don't begrudge her she's young and pretty, she should enjoy it while she can. shes got the other half of her life to wear bermudas and mu-mus.

How in the world are all these unpermitted additions getting built? I don't know what does on in California, but everywhere I have lived, if you even so much as start putting a step on the front porch, you get a notice on your front door to contact the city if you do not have a permit to build. I mean, there is NO WAY you are building an entire upstairs or shed out back and hauling in lumber and addition on the back without the city knowing what you're doing. I do not understand these weird building things of Cali Also, how do T&C always know what wall to knock down, room to push back, etc since they have no construction knowledge? They just come in and start telling the GC lets take down this wall, open this up, blah blah blah, is this something they have learned over time or do they have more knowledge than we think? T looks sooo thin now.

question: what is the theory behind the bank auctions where people buy sight unseen? why does the bank expect people to buy a house without being able to inspect it, especially knowing the damage people are doing to forclosed homes, and the risk they are taking that it could be a total teardown. its like buying a car without being able to look at it or drive it or pop the hood. that just seems completely unethical and like the bank is getting away with screwing people. if the bank owns the property it has to be insured so I wonder if even though they buy as is, insurance covers some of the damages...I know in one episode they talked about getting 10 or 15k for damages thru the insurance,

on the other hand, you're not going to find a one bedroom condo in Georgetown for less than 300-400 grand. I just cant figure out with the economy the way it is and low paying jobs, unemployment, etc how there are sooo many people who can afford this.

a 700,000 house, with a 30 year mortgage, is 23,000 a year without even figuring in interest payment and insurance and etc. That comes out to 2,000 a month for a house payment alone, nothing else like said. When the bank approves you for a loan, that rule of thumb is that your housing cost should be 1/4 to 1/3 of your total expenses. So these people would need to be making basically $8000 a month, which is around$50 an hour. I don't care how crazy the housing market is, are you saying the entire state of California is paying $50 an hour? I just saw an older Chinese woman and her daughter, the woman couldn't even speak English. Where is she working making $50 an hour? Entire Hispanic families with 4-5 kids and you can tell they are just normal people not making that amount of money. Yes, there are cases where people have inheritances, "secret" money from a settlement or some weird way they got money and you would never know. My grandparents were millionaires, but they lived in the same house all my life that they built themselves. They would have never bought a 700k house, they saved that money and spend it on their retirement. So, my point is it makes me believe that the banks are back to loaning money to people who really cant afford to pay the payments. Maybe with two people working they can scrape it out, but with interest and insurance and upkeep on top of the expenses for a home and utilities you're talking making over 10 grand a month just for housing alone. I just don't believe with the state of the economy there are that many people making 400 grand a year.

As for people looking like millionaires, its not just about "looks" per se, its just how they present as a whole, the way they talk, walk, etc . I saw an episode of LIOLI about a couple who met working on a cruise ship in Jamaica and had like seven kids and he had dreds and a gold grill and couldn't put a whole sentence together and they sold their house to buy a 700k home in the suburbs and Im like, where does this guy work, Taco Bell? I mean, I COULDNT afford a 700-800k home, and I still in my career have a lot of pressure to look top ten at all times, I have a college education, dress professionally, whatever. What are these people doing for a living I ask? Anyway, I think more details would make the whole show more believable and interesting.

Oh for sure. There's only so many things in a house that can surprise you over and over again. Their dialogue (just like all the other shows) is scripted so I blame HGTV for that. The problem with reality tv is, because its "reality", they don't bother to hire professional writers, so the banter is terrible and then it just comes off as bad acting. I think they should show more about them. I would be interested to see less about tile (since apparently everyone in socal likes brown laminate) and more about their life. Character development is good. Southern California must be a stressful place to live. To know you can't own a home except to pay near a million dollars? That's pretty sad.

Broderbits, my question is why? The people coming to the open houses don't look like millionaires. So they are getting credit from somewhere. How are they getting loans on properties that are selling over comp prices in bad neighborhoods? They even alluded to, in one episode, the bank only appraising the house at so much so they had to lower their price. Does it mean home values are rising? Based on what? Flipping? Isn't this what happened last time ? The housing market got soft for a little while and investors came in and bought up caches of homes, flipped them and drove real estate prices up with granite and stainless steel, next thing you know the bank is going along for the ride and approving people for million dollar homes they cant pay for and then they're getting foreclosed on? What happened to all the houses just last year that were just sitting on the market for a year and no one was selling? It's not like the economy has made a turn around, Walmart is closing stores for goodness sake so where are these people getting money to buy million dollar ranchers ? How is that possible? Where are people who would live here getting the money? Chessiegal, Im not saying they don't invest their own money but what Im saying is for an investor, like Pete( and they have had several others but he is the one who has been there all along and is their main backer), they ARE just a middleman because if he has they money he doesn't need them, so why go "in" with them and split your profits? What are they doing he couldn't do himself? In other words, how would a regular "real" person go find a Pete? They are currently flipping 40 homes plus; they couldn't do that without investors. My issue with that is, that they make it seem like this is just a young, courageous couple who are going out on a limb doing something really bold and ambitious for their family by taking a chance and becoming flippers and they make it seem/sound like any person who just is brave enough to max out their credit cards and take a chance could build a successful real estate investment/flipping business and I feel like that's deceptive. Its just not reality. Even with great credit, (which few people still have) the banks are very stringent about loaning right now. You have to have lots of assets, cash, whatever to get a half million dollar loan, he even said the time he did get a loan he was paying 12% interest, which is high. If he had to do that every home, and could only do one home at a time like most people would, he wouldn't be able to break even. The first time he lost money or the house sat on the market or the contractor screwed up with time or budget or materials, he wouldn't be able to get another loan and he'd be out of business. It takes years and years to build equity and start a flipping business. People can't just go out and "get an investor" like Pete, because people like Pete who have money don't need T&C, they just buy the house and pay Izzy themselves and sell it. That's my point about them being middlemen. The barrier to entry for normal people is the initial investment to get started, the backing and funds to maintain when there are losses, and the team to do good, honest construction at a cheap price and on time, which is something that takes time and experience. So, nothing against them, but I just don't think the whole concept of flipping in general, but especially in this particular situation, is not realistically portrayed as a business that's mostly investors or people who start really really small and have construction ability (which is how flipping actually started to begin with). I wish they would go more into their start and how they got into the business and etc. I've read they moved out of their house and got an apartment and all that but they don't show any of that they just show them going to auctions with a million dollars and buying up houses and in truth its NOT that easy and its NOT easy to find a good contractor and one mistake in the beginning can do you in. Its not a business most people could ever do.