Season 6

[katha]

The Rory storyline actually has a lot of elements that ring true...but they're just never consequent enough with it and never follow through. And sometimes it seems like the dramedy format itself might play a role in that? So you can't go dark and really explore mental issues or failure or sustained unhappiness....quippy and charming needs to be around the corner. So they just conveniently shoved Rory's problems aside without ever properly addressing them.

I guess my UO has always been that while Rory lacked self-awareness and tended towards entitlement and shirking responsibility...it was a totally logical development considering the environment she grew up in. All that sheltering and praising and protection, it had a flip side which was also sometimes hinted at: It could be smothering and restricting and someone with Rory's already passive and cautious personality got caught up in doing things a certain way, never rocking the boat, following all the rules...and then getting rewarded for checking all the boxes. So anytime she struggled with something, or didn't want to follow the rules, or didn't know what to do, it totally floored her and she reacted with panic or froze and did nothing (think the Jess/Dean dilemma). So she liked to stay in a bubble and liked to stay in denial about things that weren't working out, or tried to ignore her own discontent and/or confusion and/or misery as long as she could. And faced with challenges, as she got older her first instinct became to run away, hide and give up.

[cuddlingcrowley]

Quote

Rory could have gotten a job, taken classes at that community college Lorelai went to, and gotten intensive therapy. 

I never understood why Rory couldn't simply have taken the summer to think things over. Lorelai's ultimatum was ultimately (heh) useless on so many levels that I'm always shocked the show doesn't adress it more. Rory's decision to go back to Yale had very little to do with wanting to run back to Mommy but a lot more to do with her coming to terms with that was really the life she wanted. And she took exactly the amount of time she needed to do that. Hell, by alienating Rory completely, Lorelai deprived her of her guidance which, imo, caused Rory to flail for way longer than she would have if Lolelai hadn't been so inflexible.

Edited August 24, 2016 by cuddlingcrowley

[JayInChicago]

It makes me uneasy that someone, even someone as...cloistered? Catered to? Whatever as Rory was not allowed to even honestly face failure. There is a lot to learn from "failure", even if it's just spending a summer thinking about one's career, life, place in the world. But dwelling on how the hell she was gonna be a journalist anyway makes me kinda angry lol.

I guess it was showing Lorelai to be just as inflexible in ways as Emily...I guess? Or maybe ASP didn't mean that at all. Hard to say...

[cuddlingcrowley]

I believe "the Betrayal" and all players involved was what sealed the deal for Lorelai's instance. Not only did Richard and Emily break a promise to her and undermined her parenting but also Rory running to them. After that, sticking to her ultimatum was a lot more about punishing the three of them than thinking it was what was gonna get Rory back on track. I only wish we got Lorelai owning up to it.

[junienmomo]

38 minutes ago, JayInChicago said:

 

I guess it was showing Lorelai to be just as inflexible in ways as Emily...I guess? Or maybe ASP didn't mean that at all. Hard to say...

The ultimatum sounded exactly like Emily to me. 

Then, as the season progressed, Lorelai vacillated between depression about Rory and manic Rory behavior like when Rory called about the party. I'm currently toying with the idea that the writers were taking her down a bipolar path. 

[Smad]

1 hour ago, junienmomo said:

I'm currently toying with the idea that the writers were taking her down a bipolar path. 

Boy if that were true then ASP did some truely brilliant forshadowing back in S1. What with Lorelai (even jokingly) suggesting she was bipolar.

[Viqutorious]

Really interesting opinion regarding one aspect of Lorelai's mental health. I had never heard of differentiation of self before.

https://mariasiap.wordpress.com

[junienmomo]

15 hours ago, Smad said:

Boy if that were true then ASP did some truely brilliant forshadowing back in S1. What with Lorelai (even jokingly) suggesting she was bipolar.

I doubt that, because it was a toss-off joke in an intensely full season. If they couldn't remember that Richard's mother was dead, it's unlikely they remembered that joke five seasons later. Season six came from a different, angry at the studio, place.

[Smad]

6 hours ago, junienmomo said:

I doubt that, because it was a toss-off joke in an intensely full season. If they couldn't remember that Richard's mother was dead, it's unlikely they remembered that joke five seasons later. Season six came from a different, angry at the studio, place.

You know I was being sarcastic. You don't think I think that ASP would be THAT brilliant, do you?

[junienmomo]

46 minutes ago, Smad said:

You know I was being sarcastic. You don't think I think that ASP would be THAT brilliant, do you?

Oops, no, sorry. 

I've been known to accept someone's statement that the word gullible is not in the dictionary. 

[hippielamb]

On 8/23/2016 at 10:05 PM, JayInChicago said:

Rory needed a therapist and perhaps a psychiatric evaluation. I say that as someone who has a therapist and a psychiatrist lol! Neither Gilmore side's plan was going to solve the root issue, which was an obvious mental breakdown due to M Huntz's words and possibly getting bogged down in school.  It didn't help that Rory was so fucking coddled.

anyway.

I wonder if the Palladinos have a bias against therapy. A few times on this show it is mentioned and one of the characters views it as a negative thing. If any family needed therapy, it's the Gilmores. 

Fight Face 

Paul Anka! He's the best thing about this episode and season 6, imo. I like seeing Lorelai reflect her quirks on this dog, makes you wonder if she did the same to a young Rory. 

Poor Rory, I really sympathize with her in this episode. She wants to go home and doesn't know how. It's sad to see the emotion on her face as she hears about the engagement. Compare that to Lorelai discussing a possible engagement to Max with her before even answering him. This time Rory wasn't even consulted. Ouch 

The Ungraduate 

Lorelai's new morning routine and her scenes with the construction guys are fun to watch. I know she's trying to put on a happy face but there's so much drama, it's nice to see some lighthearted moments. 

It's interesting that Rory is aligning herself with Emily now that she feels hurt by her mom. Her body language at the D.A.R. swearing in speaks volumes. 

[junienmomo]

4 hours ago, hippielamb said:

I wonder if the Palladinos have a bias against therapy. A few times on this show it is mentioned and one of the characters views it as a negative thing. If any family needed therapy, it's the Gilmores.  

The Ungraduate 

Lorelai's new morning routine and her scenes with the construction guys are fun to watch. I know she's trying to put on a happy face but there's so much drama, it's nice to see some lighthearted moments. 

It's interesting that Rory is aligning herself with Emily now that she feels hurt by her mom. Her body language at the D.A.R. swearing in speaks volumes. 

Lorelai and Luke as they build their life together, plus some Rory, are the only things that convince me to crack open the S6 dvd box. 

For my periodic "you kids get off my lawn!" statement, it's hard to love characters who are in extreme psychiatric situations. It's made worse when they don't even try to get help.

Breaking Bad and Weeds are other shows like that, but it's a trend that is too common these days. It turns me off during many GG moments, especially when characters have no self-recrimination or face no consequences, a big problem for GG. 

My guess with the Palladinos is, it's part NY stereotype to be cynical about therapy, and part the trend to clinical dysfunction as a trend in television writing.

[Meow25]

Something thing I am realizing on re-watch...I was slightly sympathetic toward Emily during my first run through, but I am much less sympathetic this time around...especially with the Rory drop out stuff.  At least Richard had the self awareness to realize he had made a huge mess of things.  Emily was literally trying to recreate herself in Rory without any regard to Rory's potential.   

The scene in "The Prodigal Daughter with L/E on the airplane was heartbreaking.  LG did a wonderful job subtly expressing Lorelei's longing to be loved & understood. 

[hippielamb]

On 8/26/2016 at 11:07 PM, junienmomo said:

Lorelai and Luke as they build their life together, plus some Rory, are the only things that convince me to crack open the S6 dvd box. 

For my periodic "you kids get off my lawn!" statement, it's hard to love characters who are in extreme psychiatric situations. It's made worse when they don't even try to get help.

Breaking Bad and Weeds are other shows like that, but it's a trend that is too common these days. It turns me off during many GG moments, especially when characters have no self-recrimination or face no consequences, a big problem for GG. 

My guess with the Palladinos is, it's part NY stereotype to be cynical about therapy, and part the trend to clinical dysfunction as a trend in television writing.

I never rewatch these early season 6 episodes. The two main characters aren't speaking. It's a brave move from a story perspective but not very enjoyable if that relationship is why you watch. When it first aired, I was firmly on Lorelai's side. This time I can see how petty she is acting and it bothers me. Rory is getting more of my sympathy but she is turning into someone I don't like very much. 

I wish just one character could say something positive about therapy, or at the very least not treat it with disdain. Back in season 2 (I think) Lorelai suggests to Emily that Richard speak to a therapist. Emily has a very in-character response of being critical of the idea. But when Rory has to speak to the school therapist later in this season, Lorelai has a negative attitude about it. Frankly if my kid dropped out because of one bad performance review (and arguably assumed a different persona), I would want her to speak to someone.

[hippielamb]

Always a Godmother

Rory seems to be channeling her mom in party hostess mode. It feels like Rory is playing a different role, since her school loving persona doesn't fit her anymore.

I loved Lane and Rory's conversation. It's sad that Rory believes her mom won't talk to her until she's back at college. I wish Lorelai would have taken Rory's new number. This rift between the girls feels like (at least on Lorelai's part) a fight between two close friends, not a fight between a parent and her child. These episodes bum me out. It should be the girls against the world, not fighting each other.

We've  Got Magic to do

Lorelai is way into offended teenager mode on this whole Rory business. Most of the time when she acts like this, I find it amusing. I love any scene with Lorelai and Richard, even when she's being a brat and he's not in the mood for it. I like seeing Richard come to the conclusion that Rory is on the wrong path. Almost like his conversation with Lorelai is playing in his head. It's a sad but important final scene.

Funny that Emily can look down her snooty nose at Luke and others, but no one better dare treat her family that way. It was a great Emily scene though.  

Welcome to the Dollhouse

I like the symmetry of Richard and Lorelai looking at the newspaper article with concern. Was Emily sending Lorelai all those things because she was jealous? That's how it came across to me. It's a nice gesture for Richard to bring Lorelai the dollhouse. He knows he can't get Rory back on the right path without her. As said before, I adore Lorelai but without Rory in her life I am less invested in her storylines. Maybe because what we are seeing would be small snippets in her life, now they are taking up the main story.

[hippielamb]

21

Oh, girls. Just make up already. I want to hug them both. 

Richard and Emily are so naive that they think a 21 year old young woman is still a virgin. Their bad acting at the dinner with the reverend is laughable. Richard's depression over Rory is sad to watch. I am glad he admitted his mistake.

Balalaikas

I like seeing Rory's increasing annoyance with Emily's suffocating ways. Maybe if the Gilmores hadn't made things so comfortable for Rory she wouldn't have lapsed into her D.A.R. lifestyle.

I am glad Jess gave Rory a wake-up call. I still don't like him. Logan is right not letting Rory blame him. I can see why he was a little miffed at dinner. He had to go out of town with his dad and he comes back to his girlfriend hanging out with her ex. Obviously, Rory can do that without clearing it with him but I get why he was acting that way.

Lorelai finally (Finally!) realizes she handled things wrong with Rory. It was a sad scene. I'm glad she finally came out of this petty nonsense and saw her role in the rift.

[Eeksquire]

Quote

Richard and Emily are so naive that they think a 21 year old young woman is still a virgin. Their bad acting at the dinner with the reverend is laughable.

The one thing I really liked about that was how Frank Rory was with the Reverend.  It was a small instance of Rory having a spine and refusing to play along or be cowed by the expectations that people had for her.

[hippielamb]

Prodigal Daughter

I don't care for Lorelai's house after the remodel. It's less homey and more mature. Much like season 5 & 6 Lorelai, it's less fun. 

Luke's controlling jealousy is something I can't stand. It's not just him though. Lorelai chases after him and basically excuses his behaviour. UGH 

Richard and Emily complaining about Rory moving out is ironic since Rory did the same thing to Lorelai. She never told her mom she was going to live with the grandparents and left it to them to drop that bombshell.

Lorelai and Rory's reconciliation was anti-climatic but after so long, I'm glad it's over. 

I enjoy watching April. She wants nothing from Luke and it's nice to see a well adjusted kid from a single parent home. She's fine, Anna's fine, Luke is the one who apparently has a burning desire for fatherhood. It's so weird. This father business feels like a rewrite of his character. This is the same guy who was offended by a woman breastfeeding and wanted to throw the Bellevilles out of the diner because they had baby Davey? Now, he's bought a house for all these children he wants with Lorelai but neglected to even discuss it with her. I guess she activated his dad button because otherwise it doesn't fit.

He's Slippin Them Bread 

Christopher! :) He's so giddy to help Rory. It's cute. Also cute is his banter with Lorelai at their lunch. Some much needed levity at last in this depressing season.

Zach is a jerk. These last two episodes show the jealous asshole behaviour of the men. Poor Lane. 

I don't like Lorelai walking on eggshells when talking to Luke about Chris. The double standard of this thing really bugs me. 

Lol at Rory being shocked that Logan thinks they broke up. They had a big fight and haven't talked for a couple of weeks (at least) yet she thinks he's still her boyfriend. Sometimes I want to pat her on the head for her cluelessness.

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

2 hours ago, hippielamb said:

I enjoy watching April. She wants nothing from Luke and it's nice to see a well adjusted kid from a single parent home. She's fine, Anna's fine, Luke is the one who apparently has a burning desire for fatherhood. It's so weird. This father business feels like a rewrite of his character. This is the same guy who was offended by a woman breastfeeding and wanted to throw the Bellevilles out of the diner because they had baby Davey? Now, he's bought a house for all these children he wants with Lorelai but neglected to even discuss it with her. I guess she activated his dad button because otherwise it doesn't fit.

I disagree. I think the mere fact of knowing he was a dad activated the dad button. And we saw during the dance contest in S3 that the prospect of fatherhood was something he'd at least thought about. I know a lot of wonderful, loving parents who have no time or patience for any kids but their own, so him not wanting babies around isn't incompatible with him wanting to pull his weight as a father later on. 

[Guest]

The only good part of A New and Inproved Lorelai is Michel and Emily's scene. Oh how I hate the court scene.

[JaggedLilPill]

3 hours ago, hippielamb said:

Prodigal Daughter

 Luke's controlling jealousy is something I can't stand. It's not just him though. Lorelai chases after him and basically excuses his behaviour. UGH 

He's Slippin Them Bread 

I don't like Lorelai walking on eggshells when talking to Luke about Chris. The double standard of this thing really bugs me. 

ITA. This is frankly where I lose some sympathy for Luke. I get why he isn't fond of Christopher, but I felt he was so cold to Lorelai in that episode. And then right after he declares to Lorelai that they have to tell each other everything, he finds out about April and doesn't tell Lorelai until two months later. 

Yes, I understand he was thrown and confused, but it's hard to say stuff like that and then come off as sympathetic. Like saying "Yeah, you have to be honest with me, but me? I'll tell you stuff on my own timeline." 

It wasn't a good look for Luke. At all. 

[Guest]

I'm obsessed with the musical Hamilton so the DAR discussing him as a possibility of the best lover amuses me greatly.

[hippielamb]

23 hours ago, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

I disagree. I think the mere fact of knowing he was a dad activated the dad button. And we saw during the dance contest in S3 that the prospect of fatherhood was something he'd at least thought about. I know a lot of wonderful, loving parents who have no time or patience for any kids but their own, so him not wanting babies around isn't incompatible with him wanting to pull his weight as a father later on. 

It felt to me like they were pushing the paternal Luke angle starting in season 5. We saw him go overboard with the soccer team a few episodes ago. All they wanted was a sponsor and suddenly they are "his girls". It's weird to me. Both Lorelai and Rory didn't consider him to be a family guy and now he's all about it. I think it stands out because April and Anna are fine on their own. 

 

22 hours ago, JaggedLilPill said:

ITA. This is frankly where I lose some sympathy for Luke. I get why he isn't fond of Christopher, but I felt he was so cold to Lorelai in that episode. And then right after he declares to Lorelai that they have to tell each other everything, he finds out about April and doesn't tell Lorelai until two months later. 

Yes, I understand he was thrown and confused, but it's hard to say stuff like that and then come off as sympathetic. Like saying "Yeah, you have to be honest with me, but me? I'll tell you stuff on my own timeline." 

It wasn't a good look for Luke. At all. 

The double standard of it all is made worse by him being the man and keeping secrets but Lorelai as the woman has to report everything to him. I'm not sure if they intended it to come across that way but it skeeves me out. 

The Perfect Dress

This episode had some funny moments at last. Lorelai's reaction to Rory's apartment, and Rory's therapy session. Lane acting like Mrs Kim was amusing too. 

I know Anna is despised but I found her likable in this episode. Probably because she's basically a Lorelai clone. All of Luke's negative comments about children comes back to bite him in the butt. Anna should have told him but I can understand a mother wanting to protect her child from getting hurt. She's asking for trouble in accepting money though. 

[chessiegal]

Anna's comment about accepting money (agree asking for trouble) had no follow up that I can remember. But these are some of my least favorite episodes so I rarely watch then.

[hippielamb]

17 hours ago, chessiegal said:

Anna's comment about accepting money (agree asking for trouble) had no follow up that I can remember. But these are some of my least favorite episodes so I rarely watch then.

I rarely watch them too because this entire season is depressing to me. They seem to have forgot that this is a comedy-drama, not just drama all the time. I wonder why the producers decided to make this season the year of Lorelai's unhappiness. It's hard to watch, as a Lorelai fan. Most of the time I fast forward through a lot of it.

I think legally if a guy is contributing money for his child it gives him more of a right in how she is raised, visitation, custody, etc. Luke demands regular visits with April after his initial conversation with Anna. So, he's going to be in their lives whether she likes it or not. 

[Kohola3]

Quote

I wonder why the producers decided to make this season the year of Lorelai's unhappiness.

In my opinion, ASP knew she wouldn't be back and she was going to destroy the show any way she could to screw the network - which then screwed the fans.  Surprise, surprise they continued on without her. It was a mess but at least it wasn't deliberately horrible.  

[Lady Calypso]

For once, I think I might split my season six rewatch into two or three different posts. Usually I gather all my thoughts while watching the season and post most of it in one large post. But since I've seemed to catch up with people doing rewatches of their own, I'll post a little bit more. So, I guess I'll start with the first ten episodes!  It was a drag to watch the DAR Rory episodes, but I got through them.

The one thing really difficult with starting season six was seeing the pleasure on Emily and Richard's face with Rory living there, while knowing this was hurting their daughter. They just became so insensitive and lived in denial while throwing themselves into Rory living with them. 

I think that Lorelai's tough love with Rory didn't work well at all because this was not in character for her. Lorelai not talking to her daughter wouldn't work because Rory never had to deal with that. Both Paris and Luke were right in that they couldn't just give up. I think that the situation was so new to Lorelai and she didn't know how to deal because she was so hurt, so she chose a less than ideal situation. Plus, Emily and Richard never talked to Lorelai about the situation, so of course she was hurt about it. But she did handle it very badly. Her daughter might be an adult, but it didn't mean that she didn't need her family. It definitely hurt all of them with the situation that they were in. And the separation hurt the season. 

I'm glad Richard and Emily took Rory in so she wasn't left out and feeling abandoned. Since Rory didn't feel like staying with her mom and felt like she needed an escape, it's good that she had somewhere to go. Not everyone does. She might be too lucky in that regard. But Rory was still very wrong in all of this. She needed better guidance than her grandparents throwing money at her and her mom's best friend routine followed by a silent period. 

But Richard's realization about Rory's path was a really good moment of season six. Seeing his heartbreak as he stared at Rory after his confrontation with Mitchum really worked. 

I was not a fan of Logan this first half of the season. I know that he had his issues with his family, but he seemed perfectly fine with the fact that Rory was not on speaking terms with her mother for months. He seemed more upset about dropping out of Yale, which Matt Czuchry did the subtle aspect of it well. I guess I understand that he just met Rory last year, so he couldn't understand the full extent of their relationship. I just find it so sad that he ended up unintentionally dragging Rory down. Her choice, absolutely, but he seemed to be quite content with it. He definitely needed to be dealing with his own issues, as apparent in the episode that Jess showed up. I like that Logan didn't come without his own deep seeded issues, but I definitely didn't like him in the first half with Rory. I did like his speech to her in the bar on how he was being forced into a life he didn't want while Rory was giving a "you got your life handed to you" speech. I think Rory's anger at him had more to do with how she was perceiving her own actions in this first half, as she saw herself as being too privileged and handed everything and leading an entirely different life than what she wanted, but I didn't mind Logan handing her woe is me speech and throwing it in her face. That's probably where things started to turn around for me with him. 

Jess' return worked well. We see the full growth that he has done over the series. Jess meeting Logan was all kinds of awkward, but really funny that Logan seemed kind of intimidated and jealous to see Rory hanging out with another guy. He knew nothing about the guy, and suddenly he turned into a real jealous jerk. There was definitely an Alpha Male standoff while Rory was introducing him. Also really funny for Alexis to have Rory try to shake off Logan's arm off her shoulder at the end of that introduction scene. Jess bringing some realization to Rory worked in terms of their characters. It's why it made her leaving and reconciling with her mother in the next episode make sense, instead of making it seem like it was about her grandmother's overbearing behaviour with her. I think she needed to hear it, and Jess was the perfect person to tell her so, and in the perfect way (leaving Logan out of it, keeping it about her). That Jess/Rory scene might be my favourite scene of season six, or at least in the top five. 

And then, Rory icing out Emily before finally moving back home. Now, I did feel bad for Emily because of her realization that she was losing Rory and she couldn't help herself. But seeing Rory get back on her feet, starting with staying all day at the Stanford newspaper (presumably more than one day)? That's the Rory I missed. 

Zach turned into a jerk in episodes 9 and 10, and I'm not sure why. First at Rory, and then at the band. 

Now, the April introduction. You know what? It's been ten years or so since I've seen her, and I actually don't mind how she was introduced. She seemed almost Rory-esque, but just with a more extroverted personality. Very intelligent, curious, independent, and a go-getter. Plus, she clearly didn't want anything from Luke except for the knowledge that they were related. So that was great. What was not so great was Luke's attitude about the whole thing. It started off with his out of control anger at Christopher. I never really bought his anger at him as being legitimate. It always felt like they forced an issue there. Plus, it made Lorelai turn into a woman who had to apologize and walk on eggshells around Luke whenever his name was mentioned. 

And, of course, he turned into a huge hypocrite the moment April came through, because the previous episode had him making Lorelai promise that there'd be no more secrets. Not to mention the scene being brought up from season five, with Christopher yelling about how decisions about Rory are left to the biological parents (at least that part was left unsaid). So clearly, this will parallel Luke and Anna's situation with April. Basically, Luke turned into an even bigger asshole this season, which made me really dislike him half of the season. I know he always was a grumpy guy, but I could tolerate him until about last season, and it just got worse with this season. When him and Lorelai were happy, it worked and I loved Luke. When he wasn't happy, he was angry and yelling and being a really insensitive asshole who I wanted to be chased out of town by Taylor with a pitchfork. 

I will say Christopher's giddiness when he told Lorelai that he had money was very endearing. It made me almost forgive his attitude from last season. 

[hippielamb]

Gwen and Gavin

I loved the lengths Logan went to so he could get Rory back. He's very charming in these episodes. But watching it I know the bridesmaids thing has already happened and he knows it. I liked his conversation with Lorelai and how he is beginning to understand Rory's bond with her mom. It's completely foreign to him but he realizes that Rory and Lorelai's relationship is different.

Luke finally says the words I'm sorry. After all his rudeness and angry tantrums, none of which we ever see him apologize for, I thought he was incapable of saying those words to Lorelai.

Paul Anka is adorable. I loved his fortune telling act.

Friday Night is Alright for Fighting

Friday night dinner! Lol best part of the episode. It's interesting how Lorelai and Rory have switched places in regards to the grandparents. For years we watched Rory play the peacekeeper between all the Gilmores, now Lorelai is doing it. Rory is being so cold to her grandparents prior to the dinner, even Richard who she has the bond with. She seems to be channeling Lorelai through this falling out with the grandparents. And also at the newspaper office when she flirts with the guy on the phone.

Logan is being very cute. I can cheer on at least one of the Gilmore girls relationships. Lorelai needs to stand up for herself. Ugh I also didn't like Sookie blaming Lorelai for the wedding being postponed (or cancelled as Luke puts it). She's so team Luke she can't be a supportive friend to Lorelai.

[cantbeflapped]

6 hours ago, hippielamb said:

Friday night dinner! Lol best part of the episode

Yep, just watched this last night.  When I got to this scene, I told hubby, "Come watch...you liked this scene last time."  He has an interesting theory.  He thinks part of the dinner didn't actually happen, alternated between reality and showing subtext or something.  I don't agree with him, too artsy fartsy for GG, but thought it was interesting anyways.  

As far as Luke....yeah.  I love Luke, but from the minute his grandmother's furniture shows up in that bedroom he is an ass.  It's like they decided to throw a dark cloud over their relationship starting in that episode where he is also so cold and cruel about the Chris call.  

[Lady Calypso]

6 hours ago, hippielamb said:

Friday night dinner! Lol best part of the episode

I was surprised and then impressed when that Friday Night Dinner scene happened. It was just so out of the realm for GG in terms of editing, camera work and the choice in direction that I actually ended up watching it a few times before moving to the next episode. It definitely worked as a one time thing. 

I just finished the rest of season six and have just started on season seven. I do like Logan a lot more now and I do enjoy his moments with Rory, as well as exploring his character more. I like Rory/Logan enough where I would be fine for them as endgame for the revival, but it's not like I'm jumping up and down for them. The contrived drama of Logan getting into his accident and that is the epitome for Rory forgiving him (as well as the Rory/Jess kiss) was just not well done. I don't know; I didn't really need the accident to bash over my head that Rory should forgive Logan. I guess I wanted an actual scene of them talking it out. Logan didn't seem to get her side, and Rory seemed to be very passive aggressive with him until the accident. They never did talk it out. Plus, I know that as an adult stepping out of her comfort zone, Rory's bound to change and grow, but I'm not a fan of this Rory, the one who throws parties and happily goes out to "work out" or to travel to Martha's Vineyard and other fancy places. I miss the days when she would be sitting somewhere, reading a book. I'm sure these moments happened off screen, and I know that she's displaying similarities to not just her mother's ability to be a hostess but her grandmother's tastes, but I kind of liked introverted Rory, who was so independent and who knew what she wanted in life that didn't revolve around a boy. Yes, she had those moments way back when. 

The one thing I don't love about Logan is how his go-to is to buy things and pay for things as a way to get someone's forgiveness. I know it must be programmed into him that it's the way to go, and I still enjoy him as a character, but he definitely needs work on this department. Also, why doesn't he go to Stars Hollow more? He's gone twice in two seasons; the other times, it's either at Yale or wherever he likes to hang out. He's been dating Rory for about a year at this point. It's just odd to me. The show really did keep Rory's boyfriends in either one world ("Stars Hollow") or another ("Hartford") unless an episode called for it. I haven't quite reached season seven, so maybe that changed. 

Plus, with the parallel between Lorelai/Luke/Christopher. Which...oh, come on Lorelai. You don't go running to sleep with your ex, even with Luke being a complete ass. I can see why people would compare Lorelai to Logan. They do have very similar qualities, but this just was very blatant. I don't mind Lorelai breaking it off with Luke. He kind of deserves it, especially with the blatant "Lorelai/April must be separated at all times and I will not listen to my fiancee about a girl's birthday party....but oops, I need help so I need her here after all", plus with the "How dare you go talk to Anna" scene. What did he expect was going to happen? That Lorelai would be cool with waiting another year of being engaged until he figured out the April situation? 

6 hours ago, hippielamb said:

Logan is being very cute. I can cheer on at least one of the Gilmore girls relationships. Lorelai needs to stand up for herself. Ugh I also didn't like Sookie blaming Lorelai for the wedding being postponed (or cancelled as Luke puts it). She's so team Luke she can't be a supportive friend to Lorelai.

I don't quite know what happened to Sookie. She used to be Team Lorelai way more. I know that she's seen Lorelai go through Max as a fiance and being unable to fully commit, but damn, give your best friend a chance to explain before throwing judgment on her. But the scene in season seven's premiere does make up for this. I can get into that more in the season seven thread. 

I don't really like the path they took with Lane. Maybe because I never really saw Lane/Zach as a great couple in my eyes. Their wedding came on way too quickly and I'm not really sure why. I guess they ran out of stories for Lane so they thought a wedding was the next best thing? I do love Mrs. Kim's growth throughout the series, though. That was beautifully handled, so it makes the Lane stories these last couple of seasons bearable. Her performing two ceremonies was a neat touch. 

I guess I like Liz now, but still dislike TJ. He's really grating on my nerves. I don't blame her for being incredibly nervous about being a mother again. At least she's aware that her first go around didn't turn out the way that she wanted, although Jess did turn out better than when he first appeared. 

Emily got better as the season went on, and her wanting to buy Lorelai/Luke a house? It's a pretty big step for her. She didn't have to, but she wanted to. Good for her, and good to see her and Lorelai's relationship making some more progress. They always seem to find a way to halt the progress for a time, so I appreciate when they do make those small strides. 

Also, I don't know whether it's just me, but the end of season six/beginning of seven had serious soap opera vibes. The camera angles and tone of some of the scenes, especially with Logan/Rory. I felt like I was legitimately watching a soap opera, especially in Logan's apartment.  

Edited September 8, 2016 by Lady Calypso

[Spartan Girl]

4 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Plus, with the parallel between Lorelai/Luke/Christopher. Which...oh, come on Lorelai. You don't go running to sleep with your ex, even with Luke being a complete ass. I can see why people would compare Lorelai to Logan. They do have very similar qualities, but this just was very blatant. I don't mind Lorelai breaking it off with Luke. He kind of deserves it, especially with the blatant "Lorelai/April must be separated at all times and I will not listen to my fiancee about a girl's birthday party....but oops, I need help so I need her here after all", plus with the "How dare you go talk to Anna" scene. What did he expect was going to happen? That Lorelai would be cool with waiting another year of being engaged until he figured out the April situation? 

 

But Lorelai was perfectly fine with putting the engagement on hold until she worked things out with Rory. I know Luke acted like an ass this season, but Lorelai didn't handle things well at all. So you don't get married on the date you wanted, deal with it. She and Luke were engaged for barely a year.

If it bothered her so much, she ought to have been a bit more vocal about it, instead of keeping it all bottled inside until she just blows up and and threw him an ultimatum. And when that doesn't go her way, she lashes out like any spoiled four year and does the thing that will hurt him the most: she goes to right to Christopher -- which pretty much validates Luke's hypocritical anger and paranoia about her being back in contact with him in the first place. 

This whole clusterfuck soap opera just made her come off as passive, whiny, and spoiled. Maybe she and Chris deserved each other.

[Lady Calypso]

12 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

But Lorelai was perfectly fine with putting the engagement on hold until she worked things out with Rory. I know Luke acted like an ass this season, but Lorelai didn't handle things well at all. So you don't get married on the date you wanted, deal with it. She and Luke were engaged for barely a year.

If it bothered her so much, she ought to have been a bit more vocal about it, instead of keeping it all bottled inside until she just blows up and and threw him an ultimatum. And when that doesn't go her way, she lashes out like any spoiled four year and does the thing that will hurt him the most: she goes to right to Christopher -- which pretty much validates Luke's hypocritical anger and paranoia about her being back in contact with him in the first place. 

This whole clusterfuck soap opera just made her come off as passive, whiny, and spoiled. Maybe she and Chris deserved each other.

Very true. This is an excellent point. Lorelai had some part in this, absolutely. It's not just on Luke. Lorelai could have talked to him about it earlier. She could have asked to meet April, or to meet Anna more than a few times. They should have sat down together and discussed a plan of action. This season was definitely not good in terms of communication. Lorelai made a whole bunch of mistakes for sure, and Luke was incredibly patient with her. 

I think the issue with this whole situation is while Lorelai had a goal to reach before finalizing a date (making up with Rory, which I do think she believed would happen sooner), Luke had no definite answer to when the whole April situation would be figured out in order for them to even set a date. Not only that, but Luke was closed off to Lorelai having any contact with April or Anna to move things along. Yes, much like Lorelai being closed off to talking to Rory, but add on to the fact that Luke not only didn't tell her about April for two months, but he didn't even tell her period! Lorelai just happened to run into April, who spilled the news. Luke went out of his way to make sure Lorelai and April didn't meet. They only got to know each other at the birthday party, when Luke realized that he needed help. Then, he freaked out on Lorelai when she went to go meet Anna to apologize about the party. When she tried to offer an alternative that Anna even suggested (better to be married and know that she's in it for the long haul), Luke shut it down and refused until he got to know April.

I think it was only different because Luke and Lorelai got closer when she was acting like the spoiled brat, so their relationship was strong and they could still trust each other. But when Luke was the spoiled brat, he was unintentionally pushing her away, which created an emotional distance. That's the only difference, but one that I noted. 

Trust me, I was not a fan of this two pieced drama because Lorelai was acting like a spoiled brat. And then Luke got to be the spoiled brat and it was definitely a combination of the two that broke them up. And yes, that's why Lorelai going to Christopher was the worst possible option for her. 

[Smad]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

If it bothered her so much, she ought to have been a bit more vocal about it, instead of keeping it all bottled inside until she just blows up and and threw him an ultimatum. And when that doesn't go her way, she lashes out like any spoiled four year and does the thing that will hurt him the most: she goes to right to Christopher -- which pretty much validates Luke's hypocritical anger and paranoia about her being back in contact with him in the first place. 

This whole clusterfuck soap opera just made her come off as passive, whiny, and spoiled. Maybe she and Chris deserved each other.

IMO Luke was justified when it came to all things Christopher. Forget the stuff he doesn't know because he wasn't there like the audience. But there was enough over the years to paint a good picture for him. Lorelai stood him up in S1...for Christopher. Her Mimi rant was partially about Christpher. Christopher chews her out in the middle of the diner and still Lorelai goes back to him later that Season. Hiding tequila night. Hiding the lunch. Apparently Lorelai didn't request an apology be made by Christopher to Luke for his aweful WBB behavior.

If I look at it from Luke's POV, that phone call meant the established pattern was still very much in place. So him hearing Chris on the answering machine and Lorelai's reaction to it spelled nothing good for them from Luke's POV.

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think the issue with this whole situation is while Lorelai had a goal to reach before finalizing a date (making up with Rory, which I do think she believed would happen sooner), Luke had no definite answer to when the whole April situation would be figured out in order for them to even set a date. Not only that, but Luke was closed off to Lorelai having any contact with April or Anna to move things along. Yes, much like Lorelai being closed off to talking to Rory, but add on to the fact that Luke not only didn't tell her about April for two months, but he didn't even tell her period! Lorelai just happened to run into April, who spilled the news. Luke went out of his way to make sure Lorelai and April didn't meet. They only got to know each other at the birthday party, when Luke realized that he needed help. Then, he freaked out on Lorelai when she went to go meet Anna to apologize about the party. When she tried to offer an alternative that Anna even suggested (better to be married and know that she's in it for the long haul), Luke shut it down and refused until he got to know April.

Are you talking about Lorelai's brilliant plan to do nothing about the Rory situation? Because that was the only plan she had. Luke suggested talking to Rory which Lorelai completely shut down and then told him to stay out of it. Can't really blame him for wondering if they ever get married. After all Lorelai was doing nothing to change things. At least Luke was trying to have a relationship with his daughter. Does no one ever think that Luke might want his own daughter at the wedding too? Like Lorelai wanted hers there. Well Lorelai apparently didn't think about that. And for April to even want to be at that wedding her and Luke needed to have an actual relationship first.

Lorelai showed her fundamental flaws this Seasons. She loves and craves people who give her their attention 24/7. When those people however can't live up to that the pouting starts. It happened with both Rory and Luke. It's one of the reasons why Chris is such an achilles heel for her. He will always give her his full attention even to the detriment of his own children. And Lorelai apprently needs that around her. A person completely focused on her and nothing else. And God help that person if they ever have to give more attention to something besides Lorelai.

[hippielamb]

On 9/8/2016 at 3:50 PM, cantbeflapped said:

Yep, just watched this last night.  When I got to this scene, I told hubby, "Come watch...you liked this scene last time."  He has an interesting theory.  He thinks part of the dinner didn't actually happen, alternated between reality and showing subtext or something.  I don't agree with him, too artsy fartsy for GG, but thought it was interesting anyways.  

I love that reading of it, there was a different feel to those scenes than we've seen before. It reminds me of watching a play. From when Lorelai stood up and told everyone they were going through with dinner, maybe it was the blocking or camera angle. I loved it, seeing these characters hash it out, and also bring up old arguments they will never agree on. 

On 9/8/2016 at 4:17 PM, Lady Calypso said:

Plus, with the parallel between Lorelai/Luke/Christopher. Which...oh, come on Lorelai. You don't go running to sleep with your ex, even with Luke being a complete ass. I can see why people would compare Lorelai to Logan. They do have very similar qualities, but this just was very blatant. I don't mind Lorelai breaking it off with Luke. He kind of deserves it, especially with the blatant "Lorelai/April must be separated at all times and I will not listen to my fiancee about a girl's birthday party....but oops, I need help so I need her here after all", plus with the "How dare you go talk to Anna" scene. What did he expect was going to happen? That Lorelai would be cool with waiting another year of being engaged until he figured out the April situation? 

I don't quite know what happened to Sookie. She used to be Team Lorelai way more. I know that she's seen Lorelai go through Max as a fiance and being unable to fully commit, but damn, give your best friend a chance to explain before throwing judgment on her. But the scene in season seven's premiere does make up for this. I can get into that more in the season seven thread. 

I think Lorelai just wanted to end it. She had been avoiding Luke because she knew it was over. Sleeping with Chris gave her temporary comfort and it also sealed her break-up with Luke. 

Sookie's been pushing for them to have a relationship for years, it colours her opinion. I can't imagine having a best friend who defends the guy at every turn. It's a little sad because by the end of this season, Lorelai can't confide in anyone except Emily. 

[Smad]

5 hours ago, hippielamb said:

I think Lorelai just wanted to end it. She had been avoiding Luke because she knew it was over. Sleeping with Chris gave her temporary comfort and it also sealed her break-up with Luke.

It would have been nice though if she let Luke in on the fact that they were completely over before she went to another man's bed. Then it wouldn't have been cheating, just extremely moronic but typical Lorelai behavior.

Quote

Sookie's been pushing for them to have a relationship for years, it colours her opinion. I can't imagine having a best friend who defends the guy at every turn. It's a little sad because by the end of this season, Lorelai can't confide in anyone except Emily.

I wish Sookie had been more Team!Luke. Well along the lines of 'Don't go there Luke. Never get together with Lorelai for your own sake.'. Maybe then the poor guy would have been spared the character assasination that comes with dating Lorelai.

[TwirlyGirly]

On ‎9‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 7:44 PM, Lady Calypso said:

<snip>

And, of course, he turned into a huge hypocrite the moment April came through, because the previous episode had him making Lorelai promise that there'd be no more secrets. Not to mention the scene being brought up from season five, with Christopher yelling about how decisions about Rory are left to the biological parents (at least that part was left unsaid). So clearly, this will parallel Luke and Anna's situation with April. Basically, Luke turned into an even bigger asshole this season, which made me really dislike him half of the season. I know he always was a grumpy guy, but I could tolerate him until about last season, and it just got worse with this season. When him and Lorelai were happy, it worked and I loved Luke. When he wasn't happy, he was angry and yelling and being a really insensitive asshole who I wanted to be chased out of town by Taylor with a pitchfork. <snip> 

I'm willing to give Luke a bit of a pass with his rethinking of the "tell each other everything" edict in regards to April, only because it's easy to make relationship "rules" at a time in the relationship when you haven't yet had to apply that rule to yourself -just your partner. When April unexpectedly entered the picture, it really threw Luke for a loop, and I think he realized then maybe it's best not to immediately share something until you have it straight in your own head. Also, Lorelai has a habit of telling other people how they should handle things (even when she hasn't been asked to share her opinion), and getting upset/argumentative when they don't follow her plan. I can sort of understand why Luke might want to figure out his relationship with April and how it should proceed without interference from Lorelai.

On ‎9‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 4:17 PM, Lady Calypso said:

I was surprised and then impressed when that Friday Night Dinner scene happened. It was just so out of the realm for GG in terms of editing, camera work and the choice in direction that I actually ended up watching it a few times before moving to the next episode. It definitely worked as a one time thing. <snip>

 

Probably my favorite scene of the entire series. I love everything about it. I'm glad they didn't try to repeat it and make it a "thing," though, because that would have diluted the impact of using it in that episode. I could watch it over and over (and I have!) 

[Lady Calypso]

8 hours ago, Smad said:

It would have been nice though if she let Luke in on the fact that they were completely over before she went to another man's bed. Then it wouldn't have been cheating, just extremely moronic but typical Lorelai behavior.

It probably would have made things more clear if she had said the words "It's over" beforehand, but she did make it clear that their engagement was over. She gave him an ultimatum, he chose not to participate, but Lorelai walked away, taking it as a sign that it was "never". 

This, I think, was an attempt at a parallel with the Logan/Rory situation. Lorelai/Logan both assumed the relationships were over, so they slept with others, while Luke/Rory thought they just had a big fight and would make up.

2 hours ago, TwirlyGirly said:

I'm willing to give Luke a bit of a pass with his rethinking of the "tell each other everything" edict in regards to April, only because it's easy to make relationship "rules" at a time in the relationship when you haven't yet had to apply that rule to yourself -just your partner. When April unexpectedly entered the picture, it really threw Luke for a loop, and I think he realized then maybe it's best not to immediately share something until you have it straight in your own head. Also, Lorelai has a habit of telling other people how they should handle things (even when she hasn't been asked to share her opinion), and getting upset/argumentative when they don't follow her plan. I can sort of understand why Luke might want to figure out his relationship with April and how it should proceed without interference from Lorelai.

I'm a little more lenient with him not telling Lorelai right away about April. Technically, just before Lorelai found out, he had made the decision to actively pursue a relationship with her. In the two months when he knew about April, he was processing and he had plans to tell Lorelai, but when he saw her in the wedding dress, he got scared. It happens; he was afraid her knowing about April would ruin their wedding. But he definitely should still be called out on his hypocrisy. And my leniency with his decisions end when he made the decision to keep April and Lorelai totally separated for months after that. I wouldn't have seen the harm in introducing Anna/April to Lorelai at some point. It doesn't necessarily mean that anything definite is decided right there, but I think it takes a step in bringing the two worlds together. Anna and April should know about the people in Luke's life, especially the person now closest to him. An introduction of the three wouldn't have hurt matters at all, and maybe Anna would have been a little less reluctant to accept Lorelai. 

Ok, probably not that last part, because it's Anna, but it's better than Lorelai having to take the steps to meet Anna and talk to her about the steps needed to move forward. Luke didn't seem like he was anywhere near moving forward with figuring out how the whole situation would work. Honestly, I'm surprised Lorelai held off on meeting Anna or getting to know April for as long as she did. I think it took her a couple of months until Emily pointed out the situation that got her thinking about making progress, as Luke wasn't providing any information as to when she would get to meet April, or when she would be able to start making plans for the wedding again. And then when a solution from Anna came up, Lorelai tried to discuss it with Luke and he shut her down and yelled at her. 

It's not like I blame Luke for wanting to take some time to get to know April first before including Lorelai, but the way he handled things was very poor. If he talked to Lorelai more about the situation, or if he tried to talk to Anna (he didn't even know about the option; it was implied that he made the decision to keep April/Anna and Lorelai separated), maybe things would have worked out better. 

[cuddlingcrowley]

Quote

I think Lorelai just wanted to end it. She had been avoiding Luke because she knew it was over. Sleeping with Chris gave her temporary comfort and it also sealed her break-up with Luke. 

Lorelai's reasoning for sleeping with Christopher straight away is very clear to me. It had absolutely nothing to do with him at all, but with the fact she had reached a breaking point with Luke. She was done with that relationship as it was, and she needed him to be equally as done .

After the April reveal, choices were made from both sides that equated in that relationship becoming toxic for Lorelai. The cycle of Luke taking her for granted and not considering her needs, and Lorelai letting him, needed to be over and the only way she found at the time was for the relationship to end. Some might consider that extreme, some might not. I personally don't. It's incredibly easy to fall in the kind of pattern Lorelai did and my simpathy has always been with her during this storyline.

Yes, both Luke and Lorelai made mistakes. IMO, Lorelai's laid in trying to be patient, selfless and generous with her partner and ended up anulling herself in the process, by not recongnizing her own unhappiness and communicating it to Luke. Luke's lay in being callous and taking for granted the woman he claimed to love. I find those mistakes are nowhere near in the same level.

Ideally, Lorelai should have communicated, but I get why she was unable to. In not doing so, I think she failed herself. Luke, on the other hand, failed her. I believe the responsability in not being an asshole lies inherently with the individual and not with other people having to let them know they're being an asshole. 

That being said, I think very few of us don't agree that sleeping with the father of your daughter as a way to end a relationship gone bad isn't extreme.  Doing it (heh!) was as effective as it was horrible because, IMO, it was a  deliberate decision to hurt Luke as much as she possibly could. I've always seen it more like retribution than simply a random act of desperation or weakness like most seem to see.

 

Quote

Sookie's been pushing for them to have a relationship for years, it colours her opinion. I can't imagine having a best friend who defends the guy at every turn. It's a little sad because by the end of this season, Lorelai can't confide in anyone except Emily.

 

That's the number one thing I hate in TV best friends : when they become a shipper of a particular couple. You can have a preference for a guy because you believe he would make your friend happier but there's a different between that and the overly invested so called best friends who activelly root for one guy over the other. It's not about you. It's not about the guy. It's about your friend.

Edited September 10, 2016 by cuddlingcrowley

[Smad]

6 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

It probably would have made things more clear if she had said the words "It's over" beforehand, but she did make it clear that their engagement was over. She gave him an ultimatum, he chose not to participate, but Lorelai walked away, taking it as a sign that it was "never".

Lorelai: "It's not over until he took the ring off."

Those were her words to Rory after the Dean fiasco. Now an engagement ring isn't the same but it's still a ring on her finger. It was still there when she walked away. And her POV is the the last to consider here. First is the POV of the person who possibly got cheated on. From Luke's POV it was clearly a fight otherwise he wouldn't have been there the next day. I don't really care how much Lorelai was broken up with Luke in her own head. She should have made it clear either by giving him the ring or saying it's over.

Quote

After the April reveal, choices were made from both sides that equated in that relationship becoming toxic for Lorelai. The cycle of Luke taking her for granted and not considering her needs, and Lorelai letting him, needed to be over and the only way she found at the time was for the relationship to end. Some might consider that extreme, some might not. I personally don't. It's incredibly easy to fall in the kind of pattern Lorelai did and my simpathy has always been with her during this storyline.

Maybe it's juvenile but after years of watching Lorelai take Luke for granted, exploiting his generosity and not really caring about him unless it affected her, IMO Luke was long overdue to take her for granted while he was dealing with something this major. Until April came along even their romantic relationship was completely one sided. The only thing Lorelai did was go to bed early sometimes. He cooked dinner, he took care of the dog he hates (which she got without even talking to him), he agreed they live together in her house,, he got the tv in his bedroom. On and on it goes. The one time his focus isn't 100% on her and as a consequence he isn't able to read her mind anymore and fulfill her every whim she pouts.

I'm not condoning the lying about April. That's 100% on Luke.

[JaggedLilPill]

7 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

It probably would have made things more clear if she had said the words "It's over" beforehand, but she did make it clear that their engagement was over. She gave him an ultimatum, he chose not to participate, but Lorelai walked away, taking it as a sign that it was "never". 

This, I think, was an attempt at a parallel with the Logan/Rory situation. Lorelai/Logan both assumed the relationships were over, so they slept with others, while Luke/Rory thought they just had a big fight and would make up.

I'm a little more lenient with him not telling Lorelai right away about April. Technically, just before Lorelai found out, he had made the decision to actively pursue a relationship with her. In the two months when he knew about April, he was processing and he had plans to tell Lorelai, but when he saw her in the wedding dress, he got scared. It happens; he was afraid her knowing about April would ruin their wedding. But he definitely should still be called out on his hypocrisy. And my leniency with his decisions end when he made the decision to keep April and Lorelai totally separated for months after that. I wouldn't have seen the harm in introducing Anna/April to Lorelai at some point. It doesn't necessarily mean that anything definite is decided right there, but I think it takes a step in bringing the two worlds together. Anna and April should know about the people in Luke's life, especially the person now closest to him. An introduction of the three wouldn't have hurt matters at all, and maybe Anna would have been a little less reluctant to accept Lorelai. 

Ok, probably not that last part, because it's Anna, but it's better than Lorelai having to take the steps to meet Anna and talk to her about the steps needed to move forward. Luke didn't seem like he was anywhere near moving forward with figuring out how the whole situation would work. Honestly, I'm surprised Lorelai held off on meeting Anna or getting to know April for as long as she did. I think it took her a couple of months until Emily pointed out the situation that got her thinking about making progress, as Luke wasn't providing any information as to when she would get to meet April, or when she would be able to start making plans for the wedding again. And then when a solution from Anna came up, Lorelai tried to discuss it with Luke and he shut her down and yelled at her. 

It's not like I blame Luke for wanting to take some time to get to know April first before including Lorelai, but the way he handled things was very poor. If he talked to Lorelai more about the situation, or if he tried to talk to Anna (he didn't even know about the option; it was implied that he made the decision to keep April/Anna and Lorelai separated), maybe things would have worked out better. 

Yup. Exactly.

However, I'm not as willing to let Luke off the hook for lying about April because I think it's a really big thing to keep from the person you're engaged to. 

Maybe what it comes down to is that Luke just never got over what happened the year prior with Emily and Chris, never really trusted that he would be accepted by Richard and Emily or that Lorelai really wanted to marry him, and this was his way of getting out of it. Because for me, his decision to keep Lorelai in the dark for two months, and then subsequently keep Lorelai and April separate, speaks volumes about lack of trust and respect in the relationship.  

I'm not sure what plan they could have come up with that could have satisfied both of them. Anna put her foot down and said no contact until they're married. Luke wasn't ready to get married until he figured out his relationship with April. And neither of them are good communicators. Luke says he needs time, but won't give any estimation of how much time. And Lorelai figures Luke deserves this time and as much as it hurts her deeply to be shut out, she doesn't verbalize that to him. You see that little glimmer of hope when Luke asks for her help with the party, and then it's shattered again. I can't help but feel for her there because you just see her give up. 

Edited September 10, 2016 by JaggedLilPill

[cuddlingcrowley]

Quote

Lorelai: "It's not over until he took the ring off."Those were her words to Rory after the Dean fiasco. Now an engagement ring isn't the same but it's still a ring on her finger. It was still there when she walked away.

Well, Lorelai might have take the ring off...

Sorry, sorry. Couldn't resist! Lorelai wanted out of her own relationship. Rory got between two married people. Very different scenarios, imo.

 

Quote

And her POV is the the last to consider here. First is the POV of the person who possibly got cheated on. From Luke's POV it was clearly a fight otherwise he wouldn't have been there the next day. I don't really care how much Lorelai was broken up with Luke in her own head. She should have made it clear either by giving him the ring or saying it's over.

Quote

 

With respect, I don't understand that kind of thinking. Why shoudn't Lorelai's POV be considered? 

I think it's important to note Lorelai didn't sleep with Christopher because of lust or love. She slept with him because

Spoiler

"she needed it to be over"

.She basically used him to deliberately explode her relationship with Luke. She never intended to two-time those men. She wanted out! For that reason, I find it very hard to even call it cheating, to be honest. Regardless, of what we call it, it was wrong and an incredibly hurtful think to do, no question.

But I think there's an argument to be made over whether Lorelai really owed Luke the consideration of spelling out to him that they were over considering he had spent months taking her for granted and not showing any consideration towards her. 

Edited September 11, 2016 by cuddlingcrowley

[Smad]

2 hours ago, cuddlingcrowley said:

Sorry, sorry. Couldn't resist! Lorelai wanted out of her own relationship.

Without ending the relationship formally. Which is a must before you sleep with someone else other than your fiance.

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With respect, I don't understand that kind of thinking. Why shoudn't Lorelai's POV be considered? 

I didn't say not considered. I said the LAST POV to be considered is hers. In the case of possible cheating there are 2 POVs. The one who cheats and the one who gets cheated on. And I always consider the POV of the one who got cheated on to be the more important. What Lorelai did was cheating when I look at it from Luke's POV. She never told him it was over or gave him the ring back. He clearly saw it as a fight. Or just a hysterical woman not making sense. But I never got the impression that he thought the relationship was over.

As a comparison I look at Ross and Rachel on Friends. Rachel said they should take a break from their relationship and Ross slept with another woman that same evening. That evening we were supposed to see it as he thought they broke up, she said they should just take a break for a while. However the next morning when talking to Monica, Rachel herself said they broke up. Not they took a break. So for me it's clear cut that Ross didn't cheat because Rachel herself saw it as a break up.

2 hours ago, cuddlingcrowley said:

.She basically used him to deliberately explode her relationship with Luke. She never intended to two-time those men. She wanted out! For that reason, I find it very hard to even call it cheating, to be honest. Regardless, of what we call it, it was wrong and an incredibly hurtful think to do, no question.

But I think there's an argument to be made over whether Lorelai really owed Luke the consideration of spelling out to him that they were over considering he had spent months taking her for granted and not showing any consideration towards her. 

You know if she wanted out there was an easy way to do this. Just tell Luke there on the street it's over. Or don't say anything and just hand him the ring. It's so damn easy. And neither of those involve cheating. She could have still followed the same path afterwards if she felt she needed to sleep with Christopher in order for it to be over completely.

Owed Luke consideration before she sleeps with someone who isn't her fiance? IMO that's a must. And it's not ok whatsoever that just because you have been taken for granted that gives you the right not to be at least a decent human being and break it off officially before sleeping with someone else. If that's the yard stick we use then Luke should have been allowed to sleep with several women while with Lorelai considering that she has taken him for granted for YEARS.

[Lady Calypso]

So, I decided to watch the Lorelai/Luke fight scene again, just to see the conversation. I'll take certain aspects of the conversation to analyze it. Now, Lorelai had been avoiding Luke for a few days up to this point. I remembered that this came just after her counselling session with Carolyn/Lynnie, who told her to go get her man.

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LUKE: Where have you been?
LORELAI: It doesn't matter.
LUKE: What are you talking about it doesn’t matter, I've been looking everywhere for you. I tried your cell. I went by the inn. Patty was at your house.
LORELAI: Let's elope.
LUKE: [Stunned] What?
LORELAI: Come on, Luke. Grab your keys. Let's go.
LUKE: Elope?
LORELAI: You said that would be fine at Martha's Vineyard. Didn't you say that would be fine at Martha's Vineyard?
LUKE: Yes, I did. I'm just…
LORELAI: Come on, then! Let's go! We can drive to Maryland. What the hell, right? I mean, you have to see Maryland eventually. We can drive there, get married, and then come back here. And you'll get your stuff, and you'll move in.
LUKE: Okay, hold on. 
LORELAI: I mean we have the plan already, right? We just have to put the plan in motion.
LUKE: Let's calm down. We don't have to figure all this out now, do we?

Lorelai's desperation for  commitment is very much clear here. But of course she probably sounds like a crazy person to Luke after being ignored and unreachable for days. 

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LUKE: We can't just take off and get married.
LORELAI: Why not, Luke? Don't you love me?
LUKE: You know I do.
LORELAI: But I love you, Luke. I love you. But I have waited, and I have stayed away, and I have let you run this thing, and no more. I asked you to marry me, and you said yes.
LUKE: Yeah, I'm just trying to think here.

They go on about the purple wallpaper, which is really just the shadow over the problem in their relationship. But then Lorelai brings up Anna:

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LORELAI: But once we're married, everything with April will be fine. Anna said so.
LUKE: Anna said so, what does that mean?
LORELAI: When I talked to Anna…
LUKE: When did you talk to Anna?
LORELAI: After the party…
LUKE: I didn’t know you talked to Anna, you weren't supposed to talk to Anna.
LORELAI: I know. I'm sor… God, no! I'm not gonna defend myself! For months now, I've been skulking around not saying anything, not having an opinion, like I'm Clarence Thomas or something, and I… I'm done with that. I-I've been waiting for a long time, and I don't want to wait anymore.
LUKE: I have to think this through.
LORELAI: No!

I get that Luke needed to sit and think. I don't blame him, I really don't Sometimes, it takes a few minutes of thought to figure this out.

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LUKE: I have April!
LORELAI: You're gonna have to figure out how April fits into our lives, not the other way around.
LUKE: I'm trying.
LORELAI: Well, try married!
LUKE: Just wait!
LORELAI: No! I'm not waiting! It's now or never!
LUKE: I don't like ultimatums!
LORELAI: I don't like Mondays, but unfortunately they come around eventually.
LUKE: I can't just jump like this.
LORELAI: Well, I'm sorry to hear that. [Sniffles] And I have to go. 

So yes, the issue here is that there was no definite breakup in Luke's eyes. But for Lorelai, she made it clear that, at the very least, the wedding was off. There's no doubt both of them handled it poorly. It was the lack of communication on both ends. Both are in the wrong, for sure. Lorelai for not making it clear that she was breaking up with Luke. But I can see why she assumed that they were done, and why it wasn't cheating for her. She gave him an ultimatum, and he said that he couldn't marry her now, so for her, it was done. 

Ultimatums suck. 

[cuddlingcrowley]

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You know if she wanted out there was an easy way to do this. Just tell Luke there on the street it's over. Or don't say anything and just hand him the ring. It's so damn easy. And neither of those involve cheating. She could have still followed the same path afterwards if she felt she needed to sleep with Christopher in order for it to be over completely.

 

 

 

I can't comment on the Friends thing because I never watched it, but I think we essentially agree that the right thing to do would have been for Lorelai to officially end things with Luke if she wanted out. Now, easy? That's a whole other game. IMO, if she felt she had to go to such extremes as to sleep with Christopher, than it obviously wasn't an easy thing to go through, for her.

That said, a big part of me still has doubts over whether Lorelai truly owed to Luke anything at this point on the show. Yes, ideally she should have been less ambiguous about ending things with him. But when I remember how terribly he treated her after April showed up then I have very little simpathy left for him.

Believe it or not, we're probably very similar in real life. I also don't like things messy. Clean breaks, all the way, baby! But recently I've learned not everyone cares to wait for an oficial ending before, eh, "moving on", and frankly, can you truly blame them? I don't think I can if we're talking about a couple in which the other party has checked out or if they've been essentially pushing till it breaks. Like how I feel Luke did in s6. You treat people how you want to be treated, and boy did he make his bed. 

 

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Owed Luke consideration before she sleeps with someone who isn't her fiance? IMO that's a must. And it's not ok whatsoever that just because you have been taken for granted that gives you the right not to be at least a decent human being and break it off officially before sleeping with someone else. If that's the yard stick we use then Luke should have been allowed to sleep with several women while with Lorelai considering that she has taken him for granted for YEARS.

Do you mean that you feel Lorelai took Luke for granted while they were in a relationship together? Or you're considering the entire spam of them knowing each other? Either way, I wouldn't agree she has, but YMMV.

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So yes, the issue here is that there was no definite breakup in Luke's eyes. But for Lorelai, she made it clear that, at the very least, the wedding was off. There's no doubt both of them handled it poorly. It was the lack of communication on both ends. Both are in the wrong, for sure. Lorelai for not making it clear that she was breaking up with Luke. But I can see why she assumed that they were done, and why it wasn't cheating for her. She gave him an ultimatum, and he said that he couldn't marry her now, so for her, it was done. 

Ultimatums suck. 

 

 

Lady Calypso, I also went and checked the 6.22 transcripts because I always remembered that fight feeling very final and my impression being that Luke was letting Lorelai walk away. Possibly for good. But I think that's me looking at things from her POV.

I agree that the fact the wedding was off, possibly for good was clear with the "Now or Never", but she never does says the words "We're over!". Hence why there's room for it being ambiguous for Luke. Tbqh, I don't think it should be ambiguous for someone who really knows her. But should, could, would. 

Regardless, in my heart, I feel Luke accepted the risk of losing her for good when he let her walk away obviously in major distress without even attempting to meet her halfaway. Don't get me wrong, if he wasn't ready, I don't think he should have went along with the wedding. It was good that he stood his ground. But this was the time for a MAJOR sit down in order to clear the air and decide what next. 

Edited September 11, 2016 by cuddlingcrowley

[Smad]

2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

But of course she probably sounds like a crazy person to Luke after being ignored and unreachable for days. 

They go on about the purple wallpaper, which is really just the shadow over the problem in their relationship.

Of course she sounds like a crazy person. I still think she needed some heavy medication whenever I watch that scene. The fact that she jumps all over the place in what she is saying is the worst part of it. Luke looks like he is on page 3 of a book while Lorelai jumps from page 3 to 98 to 156 and so on. There was nothing coherent in what she was saying (except for the Anna part and even that she rattled off quickly). Luke looks absolutely shell shocked in that scene because he is hearing it all for the first time. People seem to forget that Lorelai had kept her mouth shut for months and hid her true feelings from him (which in itself is emotional dishonesty). Sometimes when something major happens peoples focus is all off so they don't pay attention to some things like they usually would (I know from experience). But that's why your partner is supposed to hit you upside the head. Lorelai is responsible for her own misery just as much as Luke is. She had the power to either end the relationship sooner or go on the offense and talk some sense into Luke. I don't blame Luke for not being able to read her mind like he usually could after the April bomb was dropped on him.

And frankly it was dishonest storytelling designed to make you feel bad for Lorelai. We barely had any idea what Luke was thinking or feeling while we had to watch episode after episode of sadface!Lorelai. No different than during the break up episodes of S5. I know this is the Gilmore Girls but Luke isn't Max or Jason or Christopher. Luke has been a regular cast member since the first episode of the show so I expect better storytelling for him.

2 hours ago, cuddlingcrowley said:

Now, easy? That's a whole other game. IMO, if she felt she had to go to such extremes as to sleep with Christopher, than it obviously wasn't an easy thing to go through, for her.

Yes it's easy. Again the rest of the episode and the aftermath could have still played out the same way with a clean break up. Instead of Lorelai just saying 'I have to go.' have her say 'Well then it's over.' or have her hand him the ring and walk off. Then play out the rest exactly like it happened. Then the question of cheating doesn't even enter the picture. Simple really.

2 hours ago, cuddlingcrowley said:

That said, a big part of me still has doubts over whether Lorelai truly owed to Luke anything at this point on the show. Yes, ideally she should have been less ambiguous about ending things with him. But when I remember how terribly he treated her after April showed up then I have very little simpathy left for him.

And I never had much sympathy for how Lorelai trated him sometimes. I guess I just see it as karma. And it's a Witch with a B sometimes.

2 hours ago, cuddlingcrowley said:

You treat people how you want to be treated, and boy did he make his bed. 

Now you make me wish we had people treating Lorelai like she treats them a lot of the time. That would have been a much better show.

2 hours ago, cuddlingcrowley said:

Do you mean that you feel Lorelai took Luke for granted while they were in a relationship together? Or you're considering the entire spam of them knowing each other? Either way, I wouldn't agree she has, but YMMV.

I'm talking about the entirety of the shows run. That's not even getting into the fact that she never cared for his emotional well being (with the exception of DUaV). Once she knew about April she herself said she could feel something was bothering him but didn't ask. How is that any different from what Luke was doing? Except she did it deliberately while he didn't because she knew something was up where as he thought everything was ok.

2 hours ago, cuddlingcrowley said:

Regardless, in my heart, I feel Luke accepted the risk of losing her for good when he let her walk away obviously in major distress without even attempting to meet her halfaway.

Just one thing in the long list of character assasinations Luke suffered while in a relationship with Lorelai. I don't count most things post-S4 that were done to his character as the real Luke. To pull of specific storylines in episodes he was either dumbed down to rediculious degress, turned into an absolute hillbilly (I will never get over the jeans to dinner with Emily), made grumpier and grouchier than ever, apparently would have benefitted from anger management and so on. Pre-S5 Luke would have never let her walk away in that state. There was still old Luke in there. The Luke that build ice skating rings, made dinners, bought a TV, snoveled her car free of snow, agreed to live in her house etc.. Sadly it also showed how she took him and his gestures for granted because that was completely one sided. Not unlike before they romantically got involved.

[shron17]

8 hours ago, cuddlingcrowley said:

Regardless, in my heart, I feel Luke accepted the risk of losing her for good when he let her walk away obviously in major distress without even attempting to meet her halfaway. Don't get me wrong, if he wasn't ready, I don't think he should have went along with the wedding. It was good that he stood his ground. But this was the time for a MAJOR sit down in order to clear the air and decide what next.

But Luke wanted to talk and Lorelai shot down that idea before they even got outside! 

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LORELAI: Yes, now is the right time. It's the best time because it's now!
LUKE: Come on. [Opens the door]
LORELAI: Your car or mine?
LUKE: Lorelai, let's just talk this through.
LORELAI: No I don’t wanna talk, all we've done for months is talk. I want to do. I want to go.
LUKE: We can't just take off and get married.

I don't understand how Luke can be expected to stop her from walking away, let alone why.  Does Lorelai not have free will?  Was he supposed to grab her arm and say no, you're not leaving until we talk this out?  I have no doubt Lorelai felt justified by saying now or never, but it was also her version of my way or the highway.  Without physically stopping her, I don't see what choice Luke had other than going with her to elope or letting her walk away.  And that's how she wanted it.  Sure, I guess she's entitled to end their relationship without allowing him any say and then sleeping with her ex, but I don't think it's right.  Also, I think the whole debate about why she didn't say it's over or give him back the ring boils down to the question of whether Luke would have let her walk away after ending the relationship, since he obviously didn't think she had the next day.

[cuddlingcrowley]

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Ok, before continuing the discussion, I want to ask if anyone else is having a lot of trouble with the post boxes or whatever it's called? Especially when it comes to "left over" quotes that are a huge pain to erase? But also, as you can see, I was unable to not only leave the quote box let alone erase it. So very ugly looking post ahead. Sorry!

 

 

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But Luke wanted to talk and Lorelai shot down that idea before they even got outside! 

 

Oh, come on. Your fiancee is having a nervous breakdown if front of you and says, "I don't want talk about it" while clearly talking to you. You just go "Oh well, bye"? 

 

 

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I don't understand how Luke can be expected to stop her from walking away, let alone why. Does Lorelai not have free will?  Was he supposed to grab her arm and say no, you're not leaving until we talk this out?  I have no doubt Lorelai felt justified by saying now or never, but it was also her version of my way or the highway.  Without physically stopping her, I don't see what choice Luke had other than going with her to elope or letting her walk away. 

How about by making the slightest attempt of not shooting down everything Lorelai is saying with no attempt to meet her halfaway? That's a thought. You don't even have to get physical to do it.

While we're at it: what's wrong with "you're not leaving until we talk this out"?Hell, I'm sure Lorelai would have appreciated because it would have meant that Luke actually gave a damn about their relationship. Even her "I gotta go" was halfhearted; you can see her lingering as thought to give Luke a chance of talking her out of it.

Why? Trying to consider the needs of the other person for a change is a good way of not losing the person you claim to love. But Luke sure learned that.

I wanna say I totally respect those who think Luke was writen out of character, like Smad. But, from my perspective, S6 Luke/Lorelai is basically a variation of the relationship Luke had with Nicole.

 

Edited September 11, 2016 by cuddlingcrowley

[shron17]

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Oh, come on. Your fiancee is having a nervous breakdown if front of you and says, "I don't want talk about it" while clearly talking to you. You just go "Oh well, bye"? 

Luke didn't say, "oh well bye" but kept talking to her.  But for two people to have a conversation they both have to be receptive to the other one's point of view.  I get that Lorelai was past that point by the time she went to the diner but since she'd been hiding from him all day that was on her for not going to him sooner.  We never saw Luke refuse to talk to her about it.

46 minutes ago, cuddlingcrowley said:

How about by making the slightest attempt of not shooting down everything Lorelai is saying with no attempt to meet her halfaway? That's a thought. You don't even have to get physical to do it.

Yes, Luke shot down the idea of leaving to elope that minute, and he was unhappy that she went to talk to Anna without his knowledge.  I don't blame him for either of those things.  When Lorelai said now or never, he very honestly said "I can't just jump like that."  He didn't say I don't want to marry you, he didn't say I don't love you any more.  Why couldn't she meet him halfway at that point?  Did she have to call all the shots?

46 minutes ago, cuddlingcrowley said:

While we're at it: what's wrong with "you're not leaving until we talk this out"?Hell, I'm sure Lorelai would have appreciated because it would have meant that Luke actually gave a damn about their relationship. Even her "I gotta go" was halfhearted; you can see her lingering as thought to give Luke a chance of talking her out of it.

Why? Trying to consider the needs of the other person for a change is a good way of not losing the person you claim to love

Luke listened to Lorelai and tried to base his response on what she said, and was trying to consider what he knew of her needs.  I don't think he was at a place where he realized if she walked away their relationship was over.  If she really didn't want to walk away when she said "I gotta go" then why did she?  Is Lorelai so insecure/egotistical that she needs someone to plead with her to stay when she says she has to go?  If instead of "I gotta go" Lorelai gave him back the ring and or told him it was over I think his reaction would have been different, and she would have seen that he did give a damn about their relationship.  It made sense to me that from Luke's point of view it would be better to talk to her after she calmed down.

ETA I always felt like Lorelai's "I gotta go" was half-hearted because she'd realized if she stood by saying now or never, leaving meant they were done and she wasn't sure she was ready to to do that.  Maybe that's why she didn't state it or give him back the ring?

Edited September 11, 2016 by shron17

[Smad]

16 minutes ago, cuddlingcrowley said:

Ok, before continuing the discussion, I want to ask if anyone else is having a lot of trouble with the post boxes or whatever it's called? Especially when it comes to "left over" quotes that are a huge pain to erase? But also, as you can see, I was unable to not only leave the quote box let alone erase it. So very ugly looking post ahead. Sorry!

You can make it easier on yourself. You don't actually need to use the quote function in the reply window. Just double click the text you want to quote (in the person's post) to highlight it and you will see a black/white 'Quote This' pop up. Just click that.

 

21 minutes ago, cuddlingcrowley said:

How about by making the slightest attempt of not shooting down everything Lorelai is saying with no attempt to meet her halfaway? That's a thought. You don't even have to get physical to do it.

How was he supposed to meet her halfway? Just look at his face the whole time she is rattling of her 'grievances'. He was completely blind-sided and had no clue what she was even talking about. The only things that he recognised during her insane rant were Anna and April. Everything else was completely new to him. Are you actually asking Luke to be able to connect the dots between the various jumps in topics Lorelai was doing? Especially since Lorelai has kept that all to herself for months until she explodes at him while Luke thought they were ok and Lorelai was ok with how he was handling things.

[CalamityBoPeep]

18 minutes ago, shron17 said:

If she really didn't want to walk away when she said "I gotta go" then why did she?  Is Lorelai so insecure/egotistical that she needs someone to plead with her to stay when she says she has to go?

Plus, it's so highly emotionally manipulative to pull something like that. She didn't just issue her ultimatum to Luke, blindsiding him completely, while he struggled to stay somewhere near the same page, as she took extraordinary leaps in logic. With the interpretation that she wanted him to stop her, that would mean that she followed up the ultimatum with a passive-aggressive action designed specifically to get him to act in an overly rom-com way, fulfilling a scenario only imagined in her head. When he had a busy diner full of people, too, if I remember correctly.

Which... in the real world... never works. Because if a person in the real world pulls that kind of crap, the recipient is usually standing there, stunned, going "what the hell just happened?" And then getting pissed off for being blamed for failing the make-or-break test they never realized they were taking.

But yeah, since this show isn't the real world, all it does is piss the audience off, since Luke didn't perform his designated romance-hero-role. Him not chasing her actually is more realistic than anything that led up to that moment. I hate the way they were both twisted into plot props in season 6, so I guess I'll never understand the vitriol directed at Luke for "his" (more like "his pod-person self's") part of it. They were both destroyed, as characters, through the entirety of the season. Which is what makes it so damned painful.

My anger throughout this whole mess is, and always has been, firmly directed at the Palladinos.