S04.E23: Schism

[dtissagirl]

7 minutes ago, Delphi said:

Ugh yeah.   I don't think there were more commercials,  but the episode was chopped to hell and really impeded any edge of my seat moments.

A couple of weeks ago a friend of mine mentioned Arrow feels like it has twice as more commercials than any other show because every cut to the flashbacks feels exactly like a cut to commercials. I think she's on to something there.

[blackwing]

7 hours ago, Password said:

I had hoped that Felicity and Oliver were at Moira's grave but nope the writers WON'T LET ME FORGET ABOUT LAUREL.

Hey, it could have been worse.  When Oliver was talking and a pair of legs appeared, I was seriously expecting either 1) Ghost Laurel, telling him it was OK, or 2) Real Laurel, back from the dead in some sort of cliffhanger.

So are we done with the stupid island flashbacks?  Waller showed up at the end to take him off the island, so isn't that when he returned home to Star(ling) City?  Please no more flashbacks... they just completely kill all momentum in the show.

[Chaser]

I haven't seen the episode but I watched the clips Olicity Queen has up.

Could that flashing GPS tracker be any bigger? It reminded me of the listening device Laurel found in S2. Made me laugh and took me right out of the scene. 

I hope I never hear the word HOPE again. 

MM just chilling like the Villian they won't acknowledge he is. I would forgive a lot of things if they would just kill him. 

I appreciated that Diggle got to talk things out with Lyla. Great moments and great work from the actors but it also highlighted the fact that some characters don't get that. Hey Felicity, how did you feel about Havenrock? 

I honestly can't with all the Laurel talk. If they really wanted to know what Laurel would do, they would just need to ask themselves which outcome would benefit her the most. That is what she would do.

The graveside talk. Give me a break. Oliver only talked to Laurel when he had too in S4 and he basically ignored her in S3. 

[SmallScreenDiva]

That's it? Darhk wanted to cleanse the world because humanity is feckless? But what drove him to think that (aside from the people turning against each other and looting Tech Village). Neal McDonough was awesome as Darhk but never really gave the character a background to give his pronouncements some weight. Even until the end I was waiting to find out how his ambitions were linked to his family. Why did he promise Ruve a new beginning? 

The episode was ... OK, that's probably the most positive thing I can say about it. Just one more "What would LL do?" and I would have pushed it to "awful" category, though. It was too much and ridiculous. I get that after a season of highlighting the death the show felt the need to make the character relevant. Problem is, she never was. And so all this posthumous "love" felt like retcon.

Liked Thea using the kid, but groaned when she gave him to Darhk and he just took off. Could have held her longer as hostage until the team had a better plan to defeat Darhk. Wished they showed brooding over a bridge or something, just not inside, sitting on a couch, surrounded by 101 candles. It just felt like she was sad Agent Carter got canceled and she didn't know what she was going to do with her night.

End of the world and Felicity and Oliver don't share a longing glance? Arrow, you failed this Olicity. I'm OK with the end with the two of them together in the lair. I'm still not OK with how the show handled the whole BMD and the fallout from 408-423. It just bogged down the rest of the season, IMO. 

Still not OK with Felicity Smoak not given time to process what happened to her. No one asked how she was doing after she had to drop a bomb on a town to save more people. Not Digg. Not Oliver. Think they could have dropped one convo with Oliver about light and dark and hope and inserted "Hey, how are you doing?" and I would have been happier.

The big scenes with OIiver on top of the cab and then his big fight with Darhk, those scenes fell flat for me. Didn't find the speech particularly inspiring. And the fight was ridiculous. Oliver punches, DD punches, he punches back. Yawn. 

I liked seeing Felicity smack the Ghost and admit giggling at the sight of her using Laurel's baton. Thought she wielded it better than its previous owner. But then again, she's always been pretty good using available weapons to whale on the bad guys.

David Ramsey looked damn good in that uniform, but it broke my heart to see him and his family at the end of the ep. The past few eps sealed my love for Lyla and I need her to come back more next season.

Oliver as mayor. I'm actually looking forward to this in S5. He won't have Felicity making excuses for him as his assistant. 

[Chaser]

As to some of these scenes reading like an dig at some fans and separate character popularity.

The only ones who have any idea what the general audience responses to is the networks with all their data. And to that I just note that one character is dead. 

Edited May 26, 2016 by Chaser

[Midnight Lullaby]

I find the idea that a dialogue was a dig at some fans quite bizarre to be honest, especially that one. Felicity was staying in SC with Oliver and they had to communicate that to the audience somehow. This isn't high school and I doubt the writers care so much to become petty. It's all so silly.

[Xenith22]

34 minutes ago, blackwing said:

So are we done with the stupid island flashbacks?  Waller showed up at the end to take him off the island, so isn't that when he returned home to Star(ling) City?  Please no more flashbacks... they just completely kill all momentum in the show.

No there are definitely more flashbacks...he turned down Waller's offer to return home because of his promise to Taiana to go to her hometown in Russia and do something if she died...  (Was it just to tell her loved ones she died, or was it to take down the corrupt government official oppressing her people?  Not that it matters because obviously even if it was just the former he is going to get involved with the latter)

Edited May 26, 2016 by Xenith22

[AyChihuahua]

1 hour ago, lion10 said:

But Oliver hides the fact that he's got a kid because the mother is an unreasonable bitch, and Felicity flips out and in the highlight of the season, literally walks out on him.  It's not even like Felicity has a moment when she realizes that maybe she shouldn't have been so harsh with Oliver given how difficult a situation he was in.

And yet he chose to be honest with that "unreasonable bitch" and lie to the woman he was going to marry, thereby making her a stepparent, subject to all the legal and moral responsibilities of a stepparent. Including paying child support for the stepchild.

In what way was she harsh? She helped rescue the kid, was polite to the "unreasonable bitch," and then calmly and quietly broke up with Oliver. If you think calmly and quietly breaking up with someone is harsh, I'm not sure what the word "harsh" means.

In what way was he in a difficult situation? How, precisely, could the "unreasonable bitch" have known if he'd told Felicity? She didn't know that Barry knew, she didn't know when Malcolm found out, and she didn't know when Thea found out. Soooooo, why was Felicity knowing the dealbreaker when those three, one of whom is a psychotic mass murderer, could know and no one cared?

[lemotomato]

7 hours ago, looptab said:

@lemotomato, since this was hidden before I had the chance to read the thread, what are you referring to here?

I was referring to Felicity's last line: "You thought I was leaving too? Not a chance."

[dtissagirl]

1 minute ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I find the idea that a dialogue was a dig at some fans quite bizarre to be honest, especially that one. Felicity was staying in SC with Oliver and they had to communicate that to the audience somehow. This isn't high school and I doubt the writers care so much to become petty. It's all so silly.

Yeah, I agree. I think this is tied to the idea that social media drives the writing, which seems to have become a truism for so many people? Which imo displays complete ignorance as to how tv shows are written and produced, and how many people at network and studio level, all of which have a lot more power than the writers, have to approve what gets on screen and what doesn't.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Welp, that was kinda boring AND cheesy as hell.  Not as lame as a footrace, though, so I guess that's something?  I will be on pins and needles waiting for next season to return (NOT).

I know you all fast-forward through the flashbacks, but Evil Poppy was hilarious.  Magical rage + terrible accent = comedy gold.  And then she died.   ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Please tell me this is the end of the stupid magic bullshit.  I'll never forgive Barry Allen for making the producers think that all of this nonsense would work on Arrow.  I hate it, make it stop! 

[looptab]

Totally random, but Amanda Waller just grabbed the idol and was fine leaving the remains of who knows how many between slaves, soldiers, plus the 4 graves of Robert, Shado, Yao Fei and Taiana. OK, then!

[lemotomato]

2 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

Yeah, I agree. I think this is tied to the idea that social media drives the writing, which seems to have become a truism for so many people? Which imo displays complete ignorance as to how tv shows are written and produced, and how many people at network and studio level, all of which have a lot more power than the writers, have to approve what gets on screen and what doesn't.

I don't think writers develop plot points or storylines in response to social media, but an occasional inconsequential one-liner here and there isn't that far-fetched.

[Midnight Lullaby]

I seem to be the only one who felt bad for Poppy..I feel so alone! ?

[dtissagirl]

9 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I don't think writers develop plot points or storylines in response to social media, but an occasional inconsequential one-liner here and there isn't that far-fetched.

Fair point.  I mean -- I get why the very last line of the season being hers, taking a clear stance, might sound like a IN YOUR FACE, SUCKAS -- but it also fits the overall narrative they set out for Felicity and Oliver. Especially with everyone else leaving. I got a shit ton of ~*symbolism*~ out of that line, so even if it was meant as a dig? It was also more than.

[arjumand]

28 minutes ago, SonofaBiscuit said:

 

I know you all fast-forward through the flashbacks, but Evil Poppy was hilarious.  Magical rage + terrible accent = comedy gold.  And then she died.   ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Please tell me this is the end of the stupid magic bullshit.  I'll never forgive Barry Allen for making the producers think that all of this nonsense would work on Arrow.  I hate it, make it stop! 

I watched all the flashbacks, with audible groaning every time actual interesting stuff was sidelined for three people arguing in a forest. And you are so right - she was FUCKING TERRIBLE. It was the worst tv acting ever! It made me want to apologize for all the 'Laurelbot is powering up' jokes I've made and laughed at, because this was so much worse. Sometimes I ask myself, have they lost their everloving minds that they ever thought the actress could handle scenes like this? Holy shit. This is not making me look forward to Russia, at all.

And the fucking tattoo did not come up in any capacity! What the hell? Was it there just to glow? Did I miss it? I wasn't playing Candy Crush during the flashbacks, for once. I mean, Reiter had something on his arm- Oh, why do I care.

I kind of enjoyed the episode? I mean, the final Oliver fight was not good, but it never is when they have to use long shots and fast cutting to hide the fact that one of the fighters is, in fact, Damian Darhk's younger body double. The first season fight was good because "Malcolm Merlyn" was wearing a hood - also, unlike season 3, their outfits were different. I think the only actor who did his own fights was Manu Bennett, which is why season 1 and 2 had equally great end fights.

I did feel that if there'd been a drinking game involving taking a shot everytime someone said HOPE or DARKNESS, people would have died of alcohol poisoning. I don't know how Felicity wasn't tempted to put on the soundtrack to the Lego Movie (DARKNESS! DEAD PARENTS!)

But, nitpicking aside, I enjoyed it. Also, Thea, no-one blames you for what you did. It was awesome, and in no way associates you with Malcolm Merlyn. I wish there could have been a "Can I just be kissing you right now?" moment between Felicity and Oliver, but I understand these things can't be rushed. There'd better be explosive make-up sex in the future, though.

Edited May 26, 2016 by arjumand

[TwistedandBored]

The more I think about the episode and the season as whole, the more my head hurts from the overall bad structure and writing of this season. Don't get me wrong, this season had a great moments but the bad keep getting bigger and bigger as we were close to the end that you can barely remember the good. 

Edited May 26, 2016 by TwistedandBored

[lion10]

39 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

And yet he chose to be honest with that "unreasonable bitch" and lie to the woman he was going to marry, thereby making her a stepparent, subject to all the legal and moral responsibilities of a stepparent. Including paying child support for the stepchild.

In what way was she harsh? She helped rescue the kid, was polite to the "unreasonable bitch," and then calmly and quietly broke up with Oliver. If you think calmly and quietly breaking up with someone is harsh, I'm not sure what the word "harsh" means.

In what way was he in a difficult situation? How, precisely, could the "unreasonable bitch" have known if he'd told Felicity? She didn't know that Barry knew, she didn't know when Malcolm found out, and she didn't know when Thea found out. Soooooo, why was Felicity knowing the dealbreaker when those three, one of whom is a psychotic mass murderer, could know and no one cared?

 

Okay, first off I think Oliver was in the wrong for keeping Felicity in the dark about his son.  As you say, there's no way of "unreasonable bitch" knowing if Felicity knows about Oliver's son.  That said in 4x15 in their breakup scene, one thing Felicity criticizes Oliver on is him making the decision to send William away without her.  She has no reason to expect that he'd ask her anything about what to do.  It's HIS son, not theirs, and he was just kidnapped.  Whatever decision he makes about William, all he's obligated to include in that decision making process is Samantha and William; no one else. 

My point about Felicity is that her responses to Oliver's lie and Donna's lie are way different from each other, when if anything her reaction to Donna should be much harsher.  Felicity has been established to have abandonment issues over her father leaving her and Donna and she holds enmity towards him, not so much for being a villain, but for leaving her as a kid.  A lot of Felicity's issues and identity are tied up in her mom and dad.  So when Donna reveals that the Calculator didn't abandon them and instead she actually ran away with Felicity, that should be yuge!  The bond between Felicity and Donna is so much deeper than what she has with Ollie so it should hurt her much more that Donna, the other half of the Smoak woman duo, built their relationship on a lie but she seems to kind of blow past that.   It's OOC given her response to Oliver's deception.

Why do you take issue with me calling Samantha an "unreasonable bitch"?  Oliver is clearly sincere about wanting to start a relationship with William, but she forbids him from telling William that he's his dad and she forbids him from telling anyone else that he has a son.  Oliver wasn't a part of his son's life because he didn't know he had a son.  Samantha even tries to persuade Oliver to not get involved in William's life even though she sees that he's matured and not just living off of his (nonexistent) wealth, but running for mayor of Star City to improve the lives of its citizens.  So yes, I find what William's mother did to be unreasonable and fairly mean to Oliver.

[AyChihuahua]

I'm kind of enjoying all the bad reviews. I mean hey, S4 was better than S3, but I loathe S3, so that's a REALLY REALLY low bar. This season had four episodes I'll rewatch, and a whole stretch in the middle I'll never watch. They keep screwing up in ways that should be very obvious beforehand, and I'm tired of it.

The only things that stand out to me are that for ONCE Oliver wasn't dumb as a doorknob...I can't immediately think of anything he did in the final few episodes that was aggressively stupid. So, improvement! I am really tired of seeing him throw himself pity parties, but I can't stand stupid, so I'll take it. And, weirdly, I really liked the Cooper stuff. I liked the opening action scene in the lair but I thought the rest of the fights were boring, esp the final Oliver/DD fight. Like hey, here's a thought, after you punch, maybe, I don't know, punch again? Like, really fast? Instead of politely waiting for him to punch you and only then taking your turn again to punch him? Just a thought?

All the nuke stuff was stupid, and worrying about inspiring hope when you're about to be directly underneath a nuclear strike is idiotic. Also that speech was pure cheese, and I LIKED the Independence Day speech, so I'm okay with a little cheese on the side of my inspirational speeches.

[benteen]

Evil Poppy was hilariously bad last night.  She was even worse than Danielle Panabaker during her conversation with Zoom during the Flash season finale.  At least DP didn't make me last during that scene.

Oliver lying to Felicity about his kid was ridiculous.  He could have just told her and asked her not to say anything.  Problem solved!

[AyChihuahua]

14 minutes ago, lion10 said:

 

Okay, first off I think Oliver was in the wrong for keeping Felicity in the dark about his son.  As you say, there's no way of "unreasonable bitch" knowing if Felicity knows about Oliver's son.  That said in 4x15 in their breakup scene, one thing Felicity criticizes Oliver on is him making the decision to send William away without her.  She has no reason to expect that he'd ask her anything about what to do.  It's HIS son, not theirs, and he was just kidnapped.  Whatever decision he makes about William, all he's obligated to include in that decision making process is Samantha and William; no one else. 

My point about Felicity is that her responses to Oliver's lie and Donna's lie are way different from each other, when if anything her reaction to Donna should be much harsher.  Felicity has been established to have abandonment issues over her father leaving her and Donna and she holds enmity towards him, not so much for being a villain, but for leaving her as a kid.  A lot of Felicity's issues and identity are tied up in her mom and dad.  So when Donna reveals that the Calculator didn't abandon them and instead she actually ran away with Felicity, that should be yuge!  The bond between Felicity and Donna is so much deeper than what she has with Ollie so it should hurt her much more that Donna, the other half of the Smoak woman duo, built their relationship on a lie but she seems to kind of blow past that.   It's OOC given her response to Oliver's deception.

Why do you take issue with me calling Samantha an "unreasonable bitch"?  Oliver is clearly sincere about wanting to start a relationship with William, but she forbids him from telling William that he's his dad and she forbids him from telling anyone else that he has a son.  Oliver wasn't a part of his son's life because he didn't know he had a son.  Samantha even tries to persuade Oliver to not get involved in William's life even though she sees that he's matured and not just living off of his (nonexistent) wealth, but running for mayor of Star City to improve the lives of its citizens.  So yes, I find what William's mother did to be unreasonable and fairly mean to Oliver.

That's...not how marriage works. At all. You make big decisions, such as whether or not to have a child in your lives, together. Not to mention, he consulted Digg, his best friend, and Vixen, a WORK ACQUAINTANCE, about what to do with the kid, but left his actual for-real future WIFE completely out of the discussion.

Felicity didn't have a whole lot of time to process what Donna told her, seeing as how they were trying to defeat a magical supervillain and avoid the end of the world. That wasn't the time for really any of that discussion, but it was particularly not the time for Felicity to let her mother know she was hurt by any of that. There were much more important things to do, and she obviously wasn't, in the middle of the end of the world, going to tell her mother to go eff herself. Not only not the time bc they were busy, but also not the time bc she loves her mom and isn't going to bitchslap her right before they maybe all die.

I don't have a problem with anyone calling Baby Mama an unreasonable bitch. She is that, and also a lying hag, and a few other things I'll not say in polite company. She's my second-least favorite character ever to appear on this show. My issue is that you recognize she is an unreasonable bitch and still are fine with Oliver choosing to keep his incredibly stupid and selfish promise to her, and lie to the woman he's going to marry and make a stepmother. And continue lying to that woman even after THREE OTHER PEOPLE know about the kid...which I note you don't address at all. The fact is that Oliver was not in a difficult position. Not at all. Not one iota. If he had immediately told Felicity the truth not only would there have been zero negative consequences to ANYONE, but there actually would have been positive results, in that Felicity would have immediately instituted safety protocols for the kid and his horrible mother, which could quite possibly have avoided him being kidnapped in the first place.

Oh, also, the bond bw Felicity and her mom is not stronger than the bond bw Felicity and the man she was in love with and about to MARRY. Marriage is a huge deal.

Edited May 26, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[wonderwall]

More on the finale...

Overall I think it was a meh season finale with an exciting/intriguing last 5 minutes. I think this was to be expected considering the writers didn't really know how to handle a magical villain. That kind of big baddie doesn't fit in the realm of this show and it leads to a lot of half assed storytelling. While Damien was an interesting and entertaining character, he was half baked at best. This lack of development also attributed to a very anticlimactic season finale. The writers tried to make him more interesting by bringing in nukes to Arrow, but that didn't work at all because it was too big and too much especially for it being introduced in the last 3 episodes. I think that's why taking down the big baddie wasn't very interesting. It was very cookie cutter. 

There were other things that frustrated me that I understood why it wasn't touched upon in this episode because there was so much going on what with the end of the world and everything. But I do hope that it will be addressed in season 5:

• I'm still annoyed that we haven't seen Felicity deal with Havenrock emotionally. I'd like to see more story towards that.
• Oliver/Felicity didn't talk about the state of their relationship
• Malcolm is still alive and I don't even know why
• I wasn't left with Felicity having any direction in season 5 which worries me. The lack of PoV from Felicity was really frustrating to me as a viewer as to why she stayed. 

Onto the good things about the episode:

Where the season finale excelled in was with Diggle/Thea's development. We understand why Diggle/Thea both left, we understand that they're at a cross-roads right now, which I think shows that their characters have a good sense of direction in season 5. 

Another thing they excelled in was Oliver's development. The show has really shown that he's grown a lot since we first met him. And while his speech was cheesy, it was satisfying because this growth has been earned. It wasn't accomplished overnight. I really can't wait to see how this newer/lighter Oliver is going to be tackled in season 5.

As for Felicity, I loved every single moment she had in the episode. She had some really great scenes with Oliver and Curtis and surprisingly Cooper. I'm glad she got some form of closure with Cooper and I'm glad that he was redeemed in the end. This episode proved that Felicity is a very powerful character. And I appreciate how much of an impact she has to the plot as well as how much of an impact she has to other characters just by being herself. My only issue was that I wanted more which is a good problem to have. 

While I am frustrated that Oliver/Felicity didn't talk about their relationship and while I am frustrated that we didn't get Felicity's PoV about why she stayed, I really loved where they left off in the season finale. I love that Felicity chose to stay and fight with Oliver. I loved that Felicity chose to be with Oliver and help him, which in itself is them moving forward. I just hope that season 5 shows them slowly moving back to one another.And I know that there are some who are worried about a love triangle next season... But come on, after all this, Felicity decides to stay with Oliver and support him? There's no chance that there will be another love triangle. And I'm actually really confident that this is the last 'break' we'll see Oliver/Felicity have for the rest of the series. 

The biggest accomplishment that this episode had was a good setup for a solid season 5. It took out all magical elements, gave Diggle.Thea/Oliver direction, gave Felicity/Oliver's relationship direction. So as a Felicity fan, yes, this episode was a tad frustrating because I wanted more, but I have hopes that S5 we'll see some of the issues I've had above be taken on. But as an overall Arrow fan, I was pleased with the finale.

Edited May 26, 2016 by wonderwall

[Midnight Lullaby]

7 minutes ago, lion10 said:

 

Okay, first off I think Oliver was in the wrong for keeping Felicity in the dark about his son.  As you say, there's no way of "unreasonable bitch" knowing if Felicity knows about Oliver's son.  That said in 4x15 in their breakup scene, one thing Felicity criticizes Oliver on is him making the decision to send William away without her.  She has no reason to expect that he'd ask her anything about what to do.  It's HIS son, not theirs, and he was just kidnapped.  Whatever decision he makes about William, all he's obligated to include in that decision making process is Samantha and William; no one else. 

My point about Felicity is that her responses to Oliver's lie and Donna's lie are way different from each other, when if anything her reaction to Donna should be much harsher.  Felicity has been established to have abandonment issues over her father leaving her and Donna and she holds enmity towards him, not so much for being a villain, but for leaving her as a kid.  A lot of Felicity's issues and identity are tied up in her mom and dad.  So when Donna reveals that the Calculator didn't abandon them and instead she actually ran away with Felicity, that should be yuge!  The bond between Felicity and Donna is so much deeper than what she has with Ollie so it should hurt her much more that Donna, the other half of the Smoak woman duo, built their relationship on a lie but she seems to kind of blow past that.   It's OOC given her response to Oliver's deception.

Why do you take issue with me calling Samantha an "unreasonable bitch"?  Oliver is clearly sincere about wanting to start a relationship with William, but she forbids him from telling William that he's his dad and she forbids him from telling anyone else that he has a son.  Oliver wasn't a part of his son's life because he didn't know he had a son.  Samantha even tries to persuade Oliver to not get involved in William's life even though she sees that he's matured and not just living off of his (nonexistent) wealth, but running for mayor of Star City to improve the lives of its citizens.  So yes, I find what William's mother did to be unreasonable and fairly mean to Oliver.

Felicity broke up with him because she wanted to marry someone who was going to be a true partner to her, who was going to share his life, the good and the bad, like in a normal healthy relationship. She chose not to marry him not because of the lies (we had a problem with that but she didn't tell him "I'm mad because you lied") but because she said she didn't want to be with someone who was never going to really share his life with her, that when things get too hard was going to keep secrets.

This is why the situation with Donna is different. I was very annoyed Donna lied and thought Felicity should have been too (I also thought maybe the fact that it was episode 22 and were in the middle of a crisis didn't give them the time) but Felicity doesn't have a problem with lies in general. She just wanted a marriage with someone who was going to talk to her and turn to her when he had to make a difficult decision.

Samantha was absolutely unreasonable in her demands and that's why Oliver should have told her "no" or at least ask her why he had to lie because she didn't give him a valid reason and he didn't ask. Keeping the kid from Oliver was illegal and immoral and she had not only no right to ask him anything but also no leverage to make him do what she asked. Oliver chose to be loyal to a one night stand who told him his son was dead instead of the woman who stood by his side and supported him for years no matter what. A hard choice would have been choosing between his son and Felicity but he had to choose between Samantha and Felicity and that should have been the easiest choice in the world.

[Chaser]

I wish Felicity and Thea had a scene about Thea leaving. It would have been a nice callback to their scene in Beacon of Hope. 

[AyChihuahua]

16 minutes ago, Chaser said:

I wish Felicity and Thea had a scene about Thea leaving. It would have been a nice callback to their scene in Beacon of Hope. 

I thought Thea having this big identity crisis totally came out of nowhere. It makes sense for her character, but there was no lead-up. In Beacon of Hope she was all gung-ho about it and trying to get Felicity to come back. Then a couple weeks later she doesn't know whether she wants to be Speedy? And she didn't even leave town, so what exactly is she doing? 

[ohjoy]

10 hours ago, Jediknight said:

They're bringing in The Ring from Chuck?

Didn't they already do that? They stole just about everything else from Brandon Routh's time on Chuck.

Edited May 26, 2016 by RandomMe

[lion10]

13 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Felicity broke up with him because she wanted to marry someone who was going to be a true partner to her, who was going to share his life, the good and the bad, like in a normal healthy relationship. She chose not to marry him not because of the lies (we had a problem with that but she didn't tell him "I'm mad because you lied") but because she said she didn't want to be with someone who was never going to really share his life with her, that when things get too hard was going to keep secrets.

This is why the situation with Donna is different. I was very annoyed Donna lied and thought Felicity should have been too (I also thought maybe the fact that it was episode 22 and were in the middle of a crisis didn't give them the time) but Felicity doesn't have a problem with lies in general. She just wanted a marriage with someone who was going to talk to her and turn to her when he had to make a difficult decision.

Samantha was absolutely unreasonable in her demands and that's why Oliver should have told her "no" or at least ask her why he had to lie because she didn't give him a valid reason and he didn't ask. Keeping the kid from Oliver was illegal and immoral and she had not only no right to ask him anything but also no leverage to make him do what she asked. Oliver chose to be loyal to a one night stand who told him his son was dead instead of the woman who stood by his side and supported him for years no matter what. A hard choice would have been choosing between his son and Felicity but he had to choose between Samantha and Felicity and that should have been the easiest choice in the world.

Isn't that the same thing as breaking up with him over him lying?  Him not sharing his life with her is facilitate by him lying to her and thus keeping a part of his life secret.  In regards to Donna, I've never been anywhere close to that kind of situation, but I feel like finding out that your mother ran away with you and that's why you don't have a dad in your life, not because he ran off, would be a paradigm shift for the average person.  If I can get a little bit of headcanon in here, even though Felicity didn't have a high opinion of Donna when she's first introduced to the show, I feel like Felicity growing up would still see the two of them as a team against the world, and that solidarity would increase with the idea that her dad left.  But now, while on some level that's still true, Felicity is faced with the reality that her situation growing up with her mom didn't have to be that way and was actively orchestrated by Donna.

So wouldn't there be the same problem Felicity had with Oliver?  Which imo, boils down to "You don't respect me enough as your fiance to tell me what's going on in your life, even though I that's what I do with you."  I mean, it's not really like Donna had an attack of conscience when she told Felicity about leaving her dad.  He was right there in the other room and Donna was probably afraid that Felicity would hear the truth from the Calculator and not from her.  Meaning that if Felicity and the Calculator had never met, Donna might have never told Felicity.  And then she forces him to leave by guilt tripping him about something that she did!  "Are you really going to stick around?"  Give me a break, Donna was just afraid that she'd lose Felicity if she had more time to grow closer to her dad.  As someone who was a critic about how much time Arrow spent on Felicity's personal drama, I do hope they show how/if Felicity and Donna's relationship has changed with time.  

But yeah, after 4x22, Donna went from being a character who I liked to a character that I seriously side-eye whenever she's on screen.

While what Samantha did was immoral and illegal, I think Oliver didn't want to disrupt William's life by involving courts in the process of seeing his son.  He should've told Felicity and he was dumb not to, especially once he told others.  But I can see why he agreed to Samantha's terms; he was desperate as hell.

[Chaser]

10 minutes ago, AyChihuahua said:

I thought Thea having this big identity crisis totally came out of nowhere. It makes sense for her character, but there was no lead-up. In Beacon of Hope she was all gung-ho about it and trying to get Felicity to come back. Then a couple weeks later she doesn't know whether she wants to be Speedy? And she didn't even leave town, so what exactly is she doing? 

I feel like by the time they were wrapping up the season, they were already thinking about what they want to do next season. Instead of making sure they are tying up themes, it's about getting them in place for S5.

[johntfs]

I'm okay with more magic but only if it gets an equal amount of John Constantine.

[AyChihuahua]

56 minutes ago, lion10 said:

Isn't that the same thing as breaking up with him over him lying?  Him not sharing his life with her is facilitate by him lying to her and thus keeping a part of his life secret.  In regards to Donna, I've never been anywhere close to that kind of situation, but I feel like finding out that your mother ran away with you and that's why you don't have a dad in your life, not because he ran off, would be a paradigm shift for the average person.  If I can get a little bit of headcanon in here, even though Felicity didn't have a high opinion of Donna when she's first introduced to the show, I feel like Felicity growing up would still see the two of them as a team against the world, and that solidarity would increase with the idea that her dad left.  But now, while on some level that's still true, Felicity is faced with the reality that her situation growing up with her mom didn't have to be that way and was actively orchestrated by Donna.

So wouldn't there be the same problem Felicity had with Oliver?  Which imo, boils down to "You don't respect me enough as your fiance to tell me what's going on in your life, even though I that's what I do with you."  I mean, it's not really like Donna had an attack of conscience when she told Felicity about leaving her dad.  He was right there in the other room and Donna was probably afraid that Felicity would hear the truth from the Calculator and not from her.  Meaning that if Felicity and the Calculator had never met, Donna might have never told Felicity.  And then she forces him to leave by guilt tripping him about something that she did!  "Are you really going to stick around?"  Give me a break, Donna was just afraid that she'd lose Felicity if she had more time to grow closer to her dad.  As someone who was a critic about how much time Arrow spent on Felicity's personal drama, I do hope they show how/if Felicity and Donna's relationship has changed with time.  

But yeah, after 4x22, Donna went from being a character who I liked to a character that I seriously side-eye whenever she's on screen.

While what Samantha did was immoral and illegal, I think Oliver didn't want to disrupt William's life by involving courts in the process of seeing his son.  He should've told Felicity and he was dumb not to, especially once he told others.  But I can see why he agreed to Samantha's terms; he was desperate as hell.

Okay, so you characterize Felicity quietly and calmly breaking up with Oliver, after helping find his kid and being polite to his baby mama, as "flip[ping] out" and being "harsh," aka bad things, but you're bothered that she didn't flip out and speak harshly to her mother? In the middle of the potential end of the world when she was a little otherwise occupied?

Btw, Felicity doesn't know Donna told Noah to leave. Who knows what they'll do with that next season.

And again, Oliver had no reason whatsoever to be "desperate as hell" with regards to seeing the kid and also telling Felicity. Those two things are IN NO WAY opposed. And he had no reason, none whatsoever, to choose to KEEP that promise to the "unreasonable bitch"/lying hag and continue lying to his future WIFE. And also including his future wife in these big decisions, especially after choosing to include a WORK ACQUAINTANCE in that big decision. He met Vixen ONCE prior to 4.15 and asked her what he should do about the kid, but he NEVER TALKED TO HIS FUTURE WIFE ABOUT IT.

Edited May 26, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[Happy Harpy]

3 hours ago, Chaser said:

 

As to some of these scenes reading like an dig at some fans and separate character popularity.

The only ones who have any idea what the general audience responses to is the networks with all their data. And to that I just note that one character is dead. 

You know what's weird? I would have been overjoyed if she died in S1 to S3, but when she finally bit it I was "wait and see". Well,  I'm happier and happier that she died and the consequences of her death saved the finale for me. Because the season-arc and magic suck but at least, since she's gone, I mostly make sense out of the interactions between the main characters. Diggle/Felicity and Felicity/Quentin are actually allowed to have scenes together. Oliver and Diggle have meaningful talks and don't trade OTT, cruel barbs in order to justify Diggle's instant friendship with Because Comics. I have more OTA.  If she was still here, I wouldn't have had those great character moments that (almost) made up for the weakness of the plot and made me want to watch next season just to have my fill of them. If I didn't have that, I'd probably be done with Arrow by now. It's what makes me the most optimistic about next season, since if they focus the show on Team Arrow and have plots more grounded in reality, there's a huge chance that the show will be purely enjoyable for me again.

3 hours ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

I seem to be the only one who felt bad for Poppy..I feel so alone! ?

I don't feel sorry for Poppy since I mostly FFed the flashback so I don't know her, but I've always felt sorry for the actress. Ray was a flop (again: The Atom became LoT) but at least BR had the support of Superman fans and masks/comics fans. She had nothing. She seemed gracious and thankful for the opportunity so I hope she'll have another one and that things will go better for her then.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Happy Harpy

[Midnight Lullaby]

1 hour ago, lion10 said:

Isn't that the same thing as breaking up with him over him lying?  Him not sharing his life with her is facilitate by him lying to her and thus keeping a part of his life secret.  In regards to Donna, I've never been anywhere close to that kind of situation, but I feel like finding out that your mother ran away with you and that's why you don't have a dad in your life, not because he ran off, would be a paradigm shift for the average person.  If I can get a little bit of headcanon in here, even though Felicity didn't have a high opinion of Donna when she's first introduced to the show, I feel like Felicity growing up would still see the two of them as a team against the world, and that solidarity would increase with the idea that her dad left.  But now, while on some level that's still true, Felicity is faced with the reality that her situation growing up with her mom didn't have to be that way and was actively orchestrated by Donna.

So wouldn't there be the same problem Felicity had with Oliver?  Which imo, boils down to "You don't respect me enough as your fiance to tell me what's going on in your life, even though I that's what I do with you."  I mean, it's not really like Donna had an attack of conscience when she told Felicity about leaving her dad.  He was right there in the other room and Donna was probably afraid that Felicity would hear the truth from the Calculator and not from her.  Meaning that if Felicity and the Calculator had never met, Donna might have never told Felicity.  And then she forces him to leave by guilt tripping him about something that she did!  "Are you really going to stick around?"  Give me a break, Donna was just afraid that she'd lose Felicity if she had more time to grow closer to her dad.  As someone who was a critic about how much time Arrow spent on Felicity's personal drama, I do hope they show how/if Felicity and Donna's relationship has changed with time.  

But yeah, after 4x22, Donna went from being a character who I liked to a character that I seriously side-eye whenever she's on screen.

While what Samantha did was immoral and illegal, I think Oliver didn't want to disrupt William's life by involving courts in the process of seeing his son.  He should've told Felicity and he was dumb not to, especially once he told others.  But I can see why he agreed to Samantha's terms; he was desperate as hell.

It's not exactly the same thing. Felicity showed she can understand lies when they are necessary (Oliver's mess in late S3 when he made her believe he killed her and she forgave him for example). So no, I don't think it's the lie in itself she has a problem with but the fact that when Oliver had to face a difficult moment in his personal life that was going to affect her (he was going to marry her and have a family with her while having another family in another city and making her a stepmom) he chose not to talk to her. He talked to Dig, he talked to Vixen but he didn't even bother asking his fiancée her opinion on his decision. Not because she should have been the one to make the decision but because you should turn for advice to your life partner, it should be the most natural thing in the world. I think if he showed her that he wanted to include her in his decisions and that he was sorry for lying she would have forgiven him. It wasn't the lie that made her break up with him, but that even after she found out the truth he still left her out of everything, like they weren't about to get married and share a life together. If you remember the two scenes they talked about the break up she never told him she can't get over the lies but that marriage is about inclusion, that he doesn't know how to do that and that she is afraid when the time comes he is going to act like he was alone and she was just along for the ride again. And it's not the type of marriage she wants.

I think the situation with Donna is different because Felicity was a child and Donna lied to protect her. And as I said lies aren't the real problem for Felicity. She told Curtis she understands what her mom did because her father was and is a criminal and she did the right thing to protect the both of them. And I understand why she left him when Felicity was a child too because raising a child with a criminal isn't great parenting.

I still think Donna should have come clean before now about what she did and I was so pissed at the final scene because I don't think she has any right to interfere in that way in Felicity's life now that she is an adult and can make her own decisions. And that by the way is the reason why I'm fine if there's less Donna in S5..what she did annoyed me and I'm not so eager to have her back at the moment. But I have a problem with people lying, it drives me crazy. Not Felicity.

I think more than desperate Oliver was presented as dumb. Because I can't believe that a person when asked to lie to his fiancée for no reason doesn't even ask "WHY?". It boggles my mind. I would have totally threatened her to call a lawyer, but any person would have at least asked why and tried to see if they could find a middle ground. Oliver just went "fine, I'll lie." Like it wasn't a big deal. I think the reason is that if he asked why then we would have had no drama because Samantha didn't have a reason to ask him to lie so they would have solved the issue in one minute and no drama for the main couple (that was the only reason to bring Oliver's child on the show in the first place). But if I have to find a reason in the narrative I have a few options: 1- Oliver is dumb; 2- Oliver doesn't trust Felicity; 3- He was scared she was going to leave him if she found out he had a kid.

I'm leaning towards Oliver is dumb because he didn't even worry when MM told him he was going to make him suffer in the same episode he told him he knew he had a kid.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Midnight Lullaby

[Midnight Lullaby]

5 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

 

I don't feel sorry for Poppy since I mostly FFed the flashback so I don't know her, but I've always felt sorry for the actress. Ray was a flop (again: The Atom became LoT) but at least BR had the support of Superman fans and masks/comics fans. She had nothing. She seemed gracious and thankful for the opportunity so I hope she'll have another one and that things will go better for her then.

Oh I mostly FFed her scenes too, LOL. I have never cared about poppy but found her last scene emotional anyway. Asking Oliver to kill her was pretty brave and the way he did it, hugging her and snapping her neck, had an impact on me too. I assumed she was going to die and he was probably going to kill her but I don't know, I guess I thought he was going to shoot her in self defense or something like that.

[AyChihuahua]

This whole idea that Felicity has zero say about the kid is totally bizarre to me. I have a stepmother. She's been my stepmother for nearly my whole life, and you can be damn sure she had a say in the big decisions about me and my brother. She wasn't the final decisionmaker, but she absolutely had a say. That is how blended families WORK. If you stick a stepparent in a box and tell them to keep their damn mouths shut about the kids, 'cause the kids aren't theirs, you're going to end up with a very ugly divorce.

And you know what, the idea that the kid's absence isn't her business is at least a little less obviously absurd, bc it's an absence. But he could just as easily have decided that he wanted to share custody. Would THAT have been Felicity's business? It's the same decision, just a different outcome. So I guess by this reasoning that it's none of her damn business he just tells her "Hey, Felicity, future wife, my kid's coming to stay next week. I'll need you to clear out of our shared living space, bc my kid ain't none of your business. Boy, I'm sure glad you know your place."

Edited May 26, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[Happy Harpy]

6 minutes ago, Midnight Lullaby said:

Oh I mostly FFed her scenes too, LOL. I have never cared about poppy but found her last scene emotional anyway. Asking Oliver to kill her was pretty brave and the way he did it, hugging her and snapping her neck, had an impact on me too. I assumed she was going to die and he was probably going to kill her but I don't know, I guess I thought he was going to shoot her in self defense or something like that.

I didn't watch it either...I meant to since it was the finale, but the idol prop looking like it had been made by third graders turned me off. And it's always good when a scene has an impact on you. I wish I had been emotionally involved in the finale so as to enjoy it more :) After all, that's why I (we all?) watch TV shows in the first place.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Happy Harpy

[statsgirl]

I thought it was really nice of DD to take his final fight out of the basement of City Hall and to the street so his daughter wouldn't be traumatized seeing him kill the Green Arrow, who had saved her life twice now. Too late though, she just saw you kill a couple of dozen ARGUS agents in front of her.

I hated Diggle telling Oliver "Your speech inspired all of us" because hey, Felicity and Curtis were already working on trying to stop the nukes. They'd been doing it all episode, they didn't need Oliver telling them to keep fighting.

It never occurred to me that we don't know why DD was doing all his insane killing the world stuff.  Maybe because I was just so glad this arc was finally ending.  And he truly was BSC so really, why did he need a reason other than he got passed over for being Ra's and never got over it?

5 hours ago, KirkB said:

I understand Malcolm working with Team Arrow. With the Dark Family Dome destroyed there was nowhere safe to hide from the nuclear rain so he figured he'd be better off trying to stop the end of the world instead. What I don't understand is Team Arrow, especially Thea, working with him.

I figured that Malcolm was down in the lair because they needed a fighter for when Felicity and Curtis went to confront Cooper.  Oliver was fighting DD, Diggle and Lyla joined him, and the only person left to protect Felicity & Curtis would have been Thea. That's not enough to keep safe the two people who actually saved the plant.  Without Malcolm there, Diggle and Lyla couldn't have shown up at the street fight.

See, Laurel dying really did leave a hole in the show.

4 hours ago, lion10 said:

I like Felicity, but I really didn't like how much the show focused on her own drama at her company and her parents.  I tried to get into it, but I just was bored by it.  Because on one hand, you've got Arrow (the title character) fighting a madman who's got telekinesis and powered by death and on the other you've got Felicity adjusting to giving a speech in a wheelchair.  Also her and Donna's hypocrysis about lying grated hard.  Donna lies about the reason Felicity's dad was no longer in her life, and Felciity just sweeps that under the rug.  "Oh, a major source of the trauma in my life was actually caused by my mom's lies and actions that she unfairly loaded onto my dad?  Whatever."  But Oliver hides the fact that he's got a kid because the mother is an unreasonable bitch, and Felicity flips out and in the highlight of the season, literally walks out on him.  It's not even like Felicity has a moment when she realizes that maybe she shouldn't have been so harsh with Oliver given how difficult a situation he was in.

I don't think Donna taking Felicity away from Noah because he's a criminal and would hurt her, and Samantha keeping William from his father who was a good guy and running for mayor at the time are at all comparable.  Noah is still a criminal who could have been in his daughter's life any time he wanted to be but chose to stay away until he could use her for something; Oliver is a good guy who made a stupid decision.

One of the reasons I like Arrow and LoT more than other superhero shows is because in the middle of magic and superpowers and insane villains, there is a grounding of reality in Diggle's reactions to Lyla and the loss (twice) of his brother, and Felicity dealing with losing her ability to walk and people's reactions to it.  The villains and fight scenes get boring after a while, it's all wash, rinse, repeat (as season 4 was a do-over of season 3).  I think a good TV show needs to balance its elements to keep the various parts of its audience watching.

Oliver as CEO in s2 was so ridiculous, I'm glad they were more grounded in reality with Felicity taking the job.

4 hours ago, blackwing said:

So are we done with the stupid island flashbacks?  Waller showed up at the end to take him off the island, so isn't that when he returned home to Star(ling) City?

He has to get back on the island to be picked up at the start of the pilot episode. But first he has to go shopping to buy an ugly wig and beard, and tear his clothes more.

[Morrigan2575]

totally forgot  to mention this last night but, I'm really glad Oliver didn't out himself as GA

Edited May 26, 2016 by Morrigan2575
did and didn't are total opposites

[statsgirl]

When did Oliver out himself as GA?  Even Lance told the GA that "that Oliver Queen guy gives a good speech".

And curiously, we didn't get any reaction from Donna when DD told the Green Arrow "I know you don't live here any more but those were nice windows".  (I'm going to miss NMcD's snark.)  Maybe Donna was too traumatized to ask Felicity who lived there before she did.

[apinknightmare]

4 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

totally forgot  to mention this last night but, I'm really glad Oliver did out himself as GA

Do you mean didn't? If so, me too.

[Morrigan2575]

sorry should say didn't 

[calliope1975]

17 minutes ago, statsgirl said:

It never occurred to me that we don't know why DD was doing all his insane killing the world stuff.  Maybe because I was just so glad this arc was finally ending.  And he truly was BSC so really, why did he need a reason other than he got passed over for being Ra's and never got over it?

I was also wondering last night why DD wanted to kill the world. He said something about humanity sucking, but I'm thinking there were easier ways to get his paradise on Earth without building a corn palace underground and nuking the world. That just seems like excessive overkill. Seriously. Even Ra's had a better idea with a blood/airborne (I still can't figure out what was going on there) virus. 

I was also confused about Thea. I thought she was leaving, but apparently, she was just chilling at home with the LOA's latest line of Candles 'R Us. For real, even when I'm depressed and broody, I'll light one, maybe two candles. She had, like, 45 lit. I do hope she gets away from Starling City, finds Roy, and has some enjoyment in her life. Roy can convince her to kill MM, and all will be right with the world.

[dtissagirl]

I still want someone to take Thea on that weekend spa trip she got stiffed.

[tangerine95]

I thought the finale was pretty underwhelming tbh.Probably my least favorite finale of Arrow so far.This episode more than any other imo showed how much magic doesn't fit this show.I thought it was so cheesy that Oliver needed the hope of the citizens and the whole way they beat Damien.It's lucky that the actor playing DD was so good it saved same of the more ridiculous stuff.

I think I liked the season 3 finale better though the plot was equally weak because I had more emotional investment in Oliver's fight.He was fighting for a life as Oliver Queen and a right to actually be happy and that was put more into focus than the whole save the city thing.In this finale I just didn't care about so much focus being put in the city and their hope in Oliver and Oliver's love for them.I guess I just respond better to more personal fleshed out relationships.I would have prefered to see more of Oliver being the beacon of hope for the people close to him rather than a bunch of strangers. We did see some of that in the funeral episode especially and with Digg after he killed his brother but I thought considering that was the whole theme of the season there should have been more especially with Felicity who has been that for him for years.There's still season 5 tho so we'll see.

The Laurel mentions were beyond annoying.I get that they hyped this death as huge and wanted to use it as a motivation for the rest of the season but killing a character sidelined for years with minimal screentime and ties to most of the other characters and then trying to pretend they were so much more is just bad writing. There was no reason to insert Laurel as part of the motivation for literally everything the characters did and even less reason to have one of the few scenes Oliver and Felicity shared be about what she would think of the whole situation instead of their own issues and relationship that very much needed discussing.It's still better than actually having Laurel in the episode tho so whatever.

I think it makes no sense the way they let the whole episode pass without at least adressing a storyline that was given as much importance as Oliver and Felicity's relationship was given all season.I don't think that final scene was even close to enough pay off for all they put them through the whole season.

Thea suddenly questioning why she's Speedy felt out of nowhere because they never set it up but it does make sense since she was never actually given a proper motivation for wanting to be a hero in the first place. I didn't expect Digg joining the army again and I don't really like it tbh.I don't like how he left Sara and Lyla like that, it felt like he was running to me.

[statsgirl]

I liked the last scene, with Oliver and Felicity in civvies looking over the row of superhero suits.  It felt very much like the end of a superhero movie, with the two of them amidst the destruction but talking about fighting on.  Not mushy like the finale of s3 with Oliver giving his blessing to the B Team and taking off with Felicity but setting forth on a new superhero stage.

As far as I could tell, the reason Noah wasn't in Felicity's life was because Noah chose not to be. Yes, Donna took her away from him but 1. I'm sure she told Noah first to stop being a criminal for their sakes and 2. Noah told Felicity he'd been following her from her MIT days and maybe earlier.  If he wanted back in to Felicity's life, why didn't he contact her then?

4 hours ago, arjumand said:

And the fucking tattoo did not come up in any capacity! What the hell? Was it there just to glow? Did I miss it? I wasn't playing Candy Crush during the flashbacks, for once. I mean, Reiter had something on his arm- Oh, why do I care.

It was weird.  There was nothing about Oliver's tattoo, which we thought was going to help defeat Reiter and/or Darhk, and suddenly Reiter has a similar tattoo on his arm that we've never seen before?  Did they forget Constantine gave the tattoo to Oliver and not Reiter?

2 hours ago, wonderwall said:

I'm still annoyed that we haven't seen Felicity deal with Havenrock emotionally. I'd like to see more story towards that.

Thinking about who left the team -- Diggle left because of his issues around Andy and trusting and then killing his baby brother, Thea left because she jumped from the Pit into the red leather (sorry, I'll never believe Laurel "I'm going to jump in there after a few boxing lessons and be The Justice You Can't Run From" would have told her to step back) and Lance left because being a policeman had lost it's meaning for him.  All three of these situations were because they couldn't reconcile the dark with the light,.

Who should really have had the problem? Felicity, who just nuked tens of thousands of people because she couldn't hack fast enough.  She's been the light motif for Oliver and she should have been the one who really had the problem recognizing the darkness within her and stepping back to deal with it.

In practical terms, I'm okay with that because she's had a rough year already (they've been very generous with the Felicity growth this season) and because I don't want to lose Felicity from the show for any time.  Maybe they'll do something with it next season, or maybe Oliver's broodiness is enough for their family.

[Password]

50 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I thought the finale was pretty underwhelming tbh.Probably my least favorite finale of Arrow so far.This episode more than any other imo showed how much magic doesn't fit this show.I thought it was so cheesy that Oliver needed the hope of the citizens and the whole way they beat Damien.It's lucky that the actor playing DD was so good it saved same of the more ridiculous stuff.

I think I liked the season 3 finale better though the plot was equally weak because I had more emotional investment in Oliver's fight.He was fighting for a life as Oliver Queen and a right to actually be happy and that was put more into focus than the whole save the city thing.In this finale I just didn't care about so much focus being put in the city and their hope in Oliver and Oliver's love for them.I guess I just respond better to more personal fleshed out relationships.I would have prefered to see more of Oliver being the beacon of hope for the people close to him rather than a bunch of strangers. We did see some of that in the funeral episode especially and with Digg after he killed his brother but I thought considering that was the whole theme of the season there should have been more especially with Felicity who has been that for him for years.There's still season 5 tho so we'll see.

The Laurel mentions were beyond annoying.I get that they hyped this death as huge and wanted to use it as a motivation for the rest of the season but killing a character sidelined for years with minimal screentime and ties to most of the other characters and then trying to pretend they were so much more is just bad writing. There was no reason to insert Laurel as part of the motivation for literally everything the characters did and even less reason to have one of the few scenes Oliver and Felicity shared be about what she would think of the whole situation instead of their own issues and relationship that very much needed discussing.It's still better than actually having Laurel in the episode tho so whatever.

I think it makes no sense the way they let the whole episode pass without at least adressing a storyline that was given as much importance as Oliver and Felicity's relationship was given all season.I don't think that final scene was even close to enough pay off for all they put them through the whole season.

Thea suddenly questioning why she's Speedy felt out of nowhere because they never set it up but it does make sense since she was never actually given a proper motivation for wanting to be a hero in the first place. I didn't expect Digg joining the army again and I don't really like it tbh.I don't like how he left Sara and Lyla like that, it felt like he was running to me.

I feel like you've expressed everything I felt about this episode.  Which is kind of weird. 

You in my head?! 

[AyChihuahua]

16 minutes ago, Password said:

I feel like you've expressed everything I felt about this episode.  Which is kind of weird. 

You in my head?! 

I wanted so badly to give @tangerine95 a like, but I can't bc of the S3 finale thing. I get the emotions being maybe better, but holy crap on a cracker was Oliver stupid in that episode. I've discovered I cannot stand stupid people, either IRL or in my entertainment. Like I cannot STAND those Vegas movies about the crazy bachelor party, bc that one guy is SO STUPID, and the other guys just basically let him continue being stupid and fucking up their lives, making them horrendously stupid, too. I can't STAND it. I can take sweetly dumb, e.g., Joey on Friends, but not flat-out stupid.

[AES13]

Did anyone else giggle when Oliver was taking the oath of office to uphold the laws of Star City?  I did.  

I think everything else I would note has been mentioned already.  I'm a little bummed that this show has reached Supernatural levels of interest from me, cheesy fun but not exactly gripping.  But hey, at least Arrow's finale was better than the Flash's!  

PS Given the show's inability to write a coherent plot, entertaining dialogue, cast properly, create consistently good stunts, and properly edit it all together, they should be thanking their stars for Emily Bett Rickards and Stephen Amell.  I would have dumped this show faster than Blindspot if their performances and chemistry hadn't kept me here.  

[AyChihuahua]

I'd add David Ramsey, but...yeah.

[lion10]

Regarding "The Flash", why isn't anyone excited that they're doing "Flashpoint Paradox"?  Barry's always been an idiot, but the potential changes are amazing.

[Jillibean]

That was okay, I guess. I didn't have any strong feelings about it, which is probably not a great quality in a season finale. It was particularly disappointing in that I have quite enjoyed the last few episodes leading up to this one.

The Laurel mentions were almost funny to me. Laurel wouldn't give up? Well, no, she wouldn't, because once she got an idea in her head she clung to it steadfastly against all reason no matter how dumb an idea it was. So I guess I'll give them that. But Oliver's graveside lines were just eyeroll worthy. He can tell us he loved her until the cows come home, but come on. SA didn't portray Oliver as loving Laurel for really anytime in the past three seasons, and we were all watching. You can't just stick in a line and erase the fact that Oliver spent a lot of time barely tolerating her and only recently warmed up to being generally okay with her. They so easily could have changed that "love" to "respect" and not have taken me out of the moment. And I have no problem with Oliver having loved Laurel--if that was what was SHOWN on my TV screen. It wasn't, IMO.

So Thea is heading off to find herself? I feel like she's been finding herself for two straight seasons. I would have been more impressed if this arc was unfolding in any way that seemed like it might have an earned conclusion.

I know Oliver and Felicity are no longer engaged, but really? You're going to send Malcolm as her bodyguard while she tries to save the world from nuclear armageddon? This guy was partially culpable for the death of one of your closest allies, like, a month ago. Shame that they killed Coop. He was actually somewhat interesting and had potential.

Poor Lyla. Dig re-inlisting was the only thing that really surprised me about this episode.