Is Lorelai Gilmore Maybe Not A Great Mother?

[Primetimer]

Karen Belz is not a crackpot. It's just that she sometimes she wonders if Lorelai and Rory pulled a Freaky Friday for real.

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[Guest]

I think she tried too hard to be the cool mom that it overshadowed her life. When it came to being a good mom, she was there for Rory. She told her the truth even if it hurt her. She didn't just go along with Rory dropping out of Yale like her grandparents did, she wanted her to stay. As far as moms go, she got a good one. 

[sacrebleu]

You are not a crackpot. Lorelei is not a great mom. She's a great older sister, not a mom. I always felt their dynamic was closer to older friend/big sis/ little sis than a mom/daughter. The Bangles concert epi leaps to mind, as does spending the first night @ Yale. Of course, Rory was portrayed as such a Mary Sue/ special snowflake that Lorelei didn't have to be a disciplinarian much.

[ChlcGirl]

I don't think you're a monster since I also think that Lorelei is a shitty mom, just for different reasons. I always, always, ALWAYS hate when parents decide to be best friends with their kids instead of, you know, parents. My mom always said that she only had 18 years to get me raised right - she'd have the rest of my life - when I was an adult - to be my friend.

[LegalParrot81]

Lorelai had her moments of being a good Mother, but other times, she wanted to play the gal pal game to the extreme.  I think she was working so hard on not being Emily, that she lost sight of what she needed to do.  Luckily, Rory was, for the most part a good kid. 

[whatwouldRigginsdo]

While I agree with all of your points above, I absolutely believe that Lorelai was a great Mom. Yes, she's exhibited some questionable behavior here & there but how realistic would a flawless Mom be? Rory has always been Lorelai's top priority and she busted her ass to make the best life she could for her all while also being her best friend. That is a great Mom.
I also somewhat disagree with your thoughts on the Mitchum Huntzberger situation. He was a complete d-bag in that episode and there was no reason to use the tone he did with her and say such harsh things especially when he was not too familiar with her work or personality.

[reggiejax]

Quote

I am not a crackpot. I just really don't think Lorelai Gilmore was a great mom.

I really don't see "Lorelei Gilmore was not a great mom" being put in the crank file. To me that is just a statement of fact, similar to "the sun rises in the east", "the earth is round" and "Buffy the Vampire Slayer was an overrated piece of crap".

She not only wasn't a great mom, she was not a great daughter, not a great friend, not a great boss, and not a great neighbor.

She pretty much sucked all around. Dare I say, the only thing she was great at was sucking.  

[AndySmith]

She was a good mother at times. Definitely not a great one overall. I think the internet loves her because she'd seem like a cool mother to have on TV, but she'd be horrible in real life.

[elang4]

Nah I think Lorelai's a great mom. Yes she made some mistakes but doesn't everyone? She worked herself silly to be able to provide for Rory. She started off with nothing and ended up running an inn herself. But not once did she not think about Rory. She even nearly sacrificed her dream of running The Dragonfly because she wanted Rory to be able to go to Yale. She always put Rory first and always wanted what was best for her. I'd say she was a pretty impressive mom.

[AlliMo]

Finally! One of my biggest issues with this show was that the relationship between Lorelei and Rory was held out to be some ideal when in fact it was terribly unhealthy. It wasn't even that Lorelei was a crappy mom as much as she was kind of a crappy person.

Edited May 18, 2016 by AlliMo

[hippielamb]

It reads like the writer thinks a non-traditional type of mom is a bad mom. I could argue points against what is listed but really I just don't agree with any of it. Funny how the character of Lorelai is listed time and again on lists as being a favourite mom. I don't think you need to have watched this show as a teen to have that impression. I love that she's fun and makes mistakes and still raises a pretty good kid. 

[Sweet Tee]

I wouldn't say she's a bad mother, but she's definitely not as great as she always thought she is.  What she was, was incredibly lucky to have such a well behaved, smart, and passive child.  Lorelai rarely ever needed to discipline Rory.  A lot of teenagers would have given her much more trouble.  I remember Lorelai telling Emily "Rory and I are best friends first and mother and daughter second."  And I just do not think that's right.  Kids need parents to parent them. They need that before they need their parents to buddy up to them.  I always felt free to tell my mother most anything that was going on with me but we were clear that she was the parent and I was the child.  Now that I'm an adult, we are friends and we talk every day.  And I think that's the way to do it.  

I also always got the feeling that Lorelai was projecting a lot onto Rory and Rory just kind of went with the flow.  Like, Lorelai wanted Rory to be like her and like the things that she liked more than Rory actually did.  I don't know if that makes any sense.

But, Lorelai did sacrifice a lot for her daughter and she clearly loved her more than anything.  She at least deserves credit for that.

[moonb]

I'm surprised during the rewatch by how Lorelai isn't as much of a Cool Mom as either she or the Internet thinks. For supposed best friends, they have a number of very parent-versus-child disagreements over the first three seasons, and then later on a slow parental letting go/separation attempt going on. Was that successful? Not really, and I don't think that was healthy, but lots of very traditional parents- and their kids- don't cope well at all with the transition to adulthood. And plenty of those parents are as self-involved as Lorelai is - it just might show up in different ways. I do think Lorelai tries too hard at being Emily's opposite, and projects Not!Emily plus Lorelai-baggage unto Rory, and that's a little cringeworthy and where she makes mistakes. 

[dustylil]

1. 8 hours ago, whatwouldRigginsdo said:

He was a complete d-bag in that episode and there was no reason to use the tone he did with her and say such harsh things especially when he was not too familiar with her work or personality

He wasn't  her boyfriend's father in this situation. Although of course she would never have been given this great opportunity had she not been Logan's girlfriend. But this was a workplace, he was her boss and  he wasn't happy with her work. He spoke to her privately and briefly about his concerns.That is what you are supposed to do with an employee who is not meeting expectations. If she had been a long term staffer, he might have taken additional action. But since it was a brief internship, he left it to offering his comments.

That she so totally fell apart after upon hearing criticism of her performance to the extent she  committed a felony, dropped out of college and then left home kind of confirms Mitchum's  opinion that she didn't have what it took to cope with the sharp- elbowed world of print journalism.

                                                                   -----------------------------------------------

As to Lorelai being a great mother, no I don't think so. Perhaps her own upbringing and the circumstances of her becoming a parent so early precluded that. An adoring, devoted and encouraging mother, yes. And until Rory was about age twelve, Lorelai was probably the best parent Rory could have had. Children need to know they are loved and protected and given the confidence to learn and try new things.  Rory certainly got that from  Lorelai. 

But during her teen years Rory needed to develop other skill sets.  Yes, broadening her intellectual horizons. But Lorelai should have also been supporting her in looking beyond herself, getting to know and understand  other people and  recognizing and respecting their  feelings and points of view. While Rory had many good qualities, empathy was not among them.  Some people seem to have this inherently in their nature, she did not. And this lack became more pronounced as she got older. I think the development of sympathy and understanding for others was something her mother should have  been encouraging in her. And calling her on when she didn't demonstrate it - like with the less than gazelle-like Yale ballerina or the jilted bride. Certainly Lorelai's maternal role when Rory was in her late teens should have been more than chief cheerleader and occasional apologist.

[Latverian Diplomat]

Lorelei was a fine mother. We don't necessarily see a lot of that because day to day good mothering is actually kind of boring. We see her at her best with other people's kids (I always thought Lorelei/Paris was golden for example).

She knows when to be playful and when to be the adult (e.g., the episode with the trip to NYC for the concert and how she handles that). She understands how kids think, e.g., the episode with catering a kid's party.

Rory is by nature very serious and needs a playful parent in her life, but one who's also there for when the chips are down as Lorelei is, and Christopher usually was not.

Now there is some questionable stuff, like the Harvard v. Yale drama/pressure, and the crazy food they eat but those are baked into the show and they both have magical metabolisms by decree, just gotta let those go.

[WhosThatGirl]

The only time Lorelai really bugged me as a mother was in the instances where Rory was told she wasn't the specialist snowflake in all of the land (where she started at Chilton and with the internship) and Lorelai wouldn't see that maybe these were true things. But then again, this is just my personal preference with a lot of parents who think their kid is the best thing ever and everything and everyone else is the problem. Perhaps it is also the only child thing. 

Aside from that, I think she was a good parent. But yes, like others have said, it helps that Rory was a somewhat perfect child who didn't go out partying and all that. But the 'Lorelai was rude to all of Rory's boyfriends.. eh. I mean, the first time she met Jess he was sneaking a beer in her house and so I get why she never came around to him and Logan pulled some sort of prank where he took something from Richard and Emily's house at the Friday night dinner when she first met him. First impressions do mean a lot, actually. At the end of season 6, she grew to  like him.  She and Luke went to his house at the Vineyard with him and Rory for Valentines. 

So, yes, she wasn't perfect, but I don't think any of the moms on tv I watch are perfect

[CofCinci]

Not only was she a terrible mother --- she was a piece of shit to her parents. I don't think they deserved to be treated the way they did.

[katha]

I think Lorelai loved Rory very much, she made a lot of sacrifices for her, protected her and encouraged her. And that's great. But yeah, her parenting approach had downsides. The whole Max saga was not very considerate of Rory at all and Rory was very gracious and understanding for a teenager in dealing with all that awkwardness and unpredictability. Same with the secret wedding in Paris later on, though Rory was older of course. IMO the main problem with Jess and Logan was that she tended to blame them for things that were actually Rory's fault, she disliked them to some degree for "making" Rory behave in ways she didn't like instead of holding Rory accountable. Though to be fair to her, she made an effort to be polite and to not intervene despite her reservations (excluding the car wreck meltdown). The Jess/Dean thing also went beyond just her, I think the whole town was deliberately written to look a bit creepy and smothering and overreacting when it came to Jess.

Her greatest failing was perhaps that she wasn't consequent enough when it came to teaching Rory that she was responsible for her own actions, that she needed to deal with setbacks and mistakes. Hence Rory often throwing tantrums when she tried to lay down the law about big things: The termite loan, the Dean affair, dropping out of Yale. Rory tended towards passivity, self-involvement and she developed a sense of entitlement as she got older, Lorelai treating her like a special snowflake and bestest angel child ever wasn't exactly helping with that...

[shron17]

I really dislike the judging whether other people are good parents or not game, even on TV.  I think Lorelai was the very best mom to Rory that she could be, based on the circumstances and who she was as a person.  And that's all any of us can ever do.

[txhorns79]

I didn't really care for the "Rory as special snowflake" attitude Lorelai had in the later seasons.  I think the only time I thought Lorelai was honestly a bad parent was with the engagement with Max.  I couldn't believe she waited until just a few days before the wedding to discuss what Max's role would be vis a vis Rory.  I also thought her decision to not marry Max was handled pretty haphazardly with regards to Rory.  It's a pretty big roller coaster to put a teenager through.  And I don't say that to suggest Lorelai should have married someone she did not want to marry, just that it seemed like she didn't give a lot of thought as to how Rory would take the situation.     

Edited May 19, 2016 by txhorns79

[Kath]

This essay is EXACTLY what I think of Lorelai - you most certainly are not a crackpot.

[FictionLover]

IMO the two biggest parenting problems Lorelai had were:

The higher you put your child on a pedistal  the furthest they will fall., its only a matter of time. When you build them up so much they are afraid to disappoint everyone. The grandparents did this as well. The OTT praising is well intended but still harmful; a better balance of praise and constructive criticism would have made a more balanced young woman.

Playing the "mom card" more often may have kept Rory from running to her grandparents the few times her mom showed her disapproval. 

This doesn't mean I  think she was a bad mom. She was loving, supportive and flawed like everyone else and doing the best she knew how.

[JaggedLilPill]

But what constitutes being a "great" parent? Is there honestly such a thing? Parenting styles are incredibly subjective. I'm sure to some Emily seems like a great mother because she put Lorelai in the best schools, etc. Same with Mrs. Kim. 

Was Lorelai flawed? Absolutely. Did she have boundary issues? You betcha. Did she put Rory on a pedestal too much? Yes. Definitely. Was she too lax at times? Again, yes. But I can't unequivocally place her in the crappy parent column because IMO, there's too much evidence against it. I think she was very supportive and loving.

When Rory missed her Shakespeare test and she and Lorelai went to look for the deer, Lorelai said if it was too much pressure that Rory could go back to Stars Hollow. Some parents would not care how stressed and exhausted their kid was. They would keep pushing. 

I think Concert Interuptus also showed that when she needed to be the adult/parent role, she took it in stride. 

There are plenty other examples, but I won't list all of them. I guess my answer is I think she's a good mom. 

[hellmouse]

I've never understood why anyone thought it was normal that she slept over on Rory's first night at Yale. Missing your parents and being nervous and homesick is normal. Your mom sleeping on a mattress on the floor isn't. IMO. Rory had perhaps the most sheltered life ever.

[Darknight]

Lorelai was an ok mom. She was lucky that Rory never challenged anything and wasn't a bad kid. I hated how she would always say she's Rory's friend and not her parent. Their relationship was more like best friend than mother and daughter. 

Edited June 28, 2016 by Darknight

[fitzcarraldo]

I think she lucked out getting a "low maintenance" kid. She didn't handle Jess so well but maybe if he was hers she would have idolized his every move like Rory's..... I don't see her ever being cruel like Emily, though. Or have a child as stunted as Kirk. Rory is a mama's girl but no Kirk, at least.

[patchwork]

Thanks to Netflix I've started a re-watch and I'm shocked at how much sympathy I have for Emily and Richard this time around.

I think Lorelai's buddy/buddy parenting style was fine when Rory was younger but later on she needed to be more a Mom than best friend and quit with the special snowflake stuff because that did Rory no favours. The second she real faced criticism Rory crumpled like paper but the show also has this unfortunate habit of making everything come easy for her so I'm not sure if Mitchum's opinion is supposed to be valid. 

The Chilton outfit does seem like a subconscious choice to be look as anti-Chilton parent as possible because even if all her work clothes are at the cleaners she doesn't have a pair of jeans or something to wear? I'm not even sure why she gets back together with Max after Christopher left, on this re-watch it just looks like she was lonely, they got back together, she likes him and got swept up in the wedding idea but gave no thought to how the marriage itself was going to work or how any of it would affect her daughter. 

[Drapers4thWife]

Lorelai was a good mom but a shitty daughter. 

Here's my criteria for a good mom: is the child clothed, fed and physically cared for? Is the child loved and given affection? Is the child mentally stimulated? Is he/she given clear boundaries but also allowed to develop their own personality? Can the child feel free to go to their mom with problems and concerns? Is there open communication? Is the child given guidance but also the freedom to make mistakes? A safe foundation but also given responsibility? 

I think Lorelai passes on all those merits. I think she was overall a balance between a "cool mom" but also someone who laid down the law as needed. The only times I really disliked Lorelai as a parent was when her bitterness towards Emily impacted Rory's own relationship with her grandparents. But that's a very human fault: Lorelai couldn't let go of her OWN feelings and they colored her view of her parents' actions and couldn't recognize that Rory had a different relationship with them. That said though, I do think Lorelai tried and even though she struggled, she did recognize that Richard and Emily loved Rory and tried to not interfere. 

Quote

I've never understood why anyone thought it was normal that she slept over on Rory's first night at Yale.

She didn't want to. Rory called her in a panic and begged her to come. I actually think Lorelai handled it brilliantly - she stayed overnight but she also used her time there to get Rory to reach out to her roommates and approach the other kids so that by the next day, Rory was over most of her anxiety about being in a new place and surrounded by new people. The other girls came over the next morning to invite Rory to coffee and orientation with them. Lorelai didn't hunker down and play slumber party locked in Rory's room, she forced Rory out of her shell to overcome her anxiety because she knew she couldn't permanently camp out on the floor. That she COULD be there to help out the first night I thought was sweet and completely normal. Not every kid responds to a hard-ass "throw you in the deep end" approach. It's not unusual for a kid away at college for the first time to need a bit of handholding.  

Edited July 4, 2016 by Drapers4thWife

[twoods]

I definitely agree that Lorelai was a better mom than daughter. I felt sorry for Emily whenever she heard second hand about things in Lorelai's life, and she seemed to always treat her parents like shit. Granted, they did terribly handling the Luke/Chris situation, but I wish that Lorelai treated them a little better. I wonder if that's why Roey treated her grandparents badly after she went back to Yale- she was mirroring what her mom continually did.

I think that Lorelai knew she went lax on Rory a lot and treated her like a friend more than a daughter. When she tries to pull the mom card, such as the Jess stuff and how Rory slept with a married Dean, Rory never responded well. I liked Lorelai's response to Rory's tantrum ("Weren't you supposed to go through this stage 5 years ago?").  Their relationship is what drew me to this show (along with Lorelai and Luke) and I understood it. It was dysfunctional, but it worked for them.

[WhosThatGirl]

As for the bad daughter thing, I don't know. I think some episodes I get the disconnect with her and her parents because it's a lot of  "be a proper young lady" and that was not Lorelai's thing, despite being born into it. There are times where I dislike the way she treated her parents, like how she left home with Rory and didn't inform them and chose to live in a shed. It always makes me sad when Emily has to deal with those realizations of what Lorelai chose to do-the episode when Rory showed her the shed they lived in, when Emily went to see Mia for the first time at the Inn, the scene when Emily finds the note Lorelai left for them- and Lorelai never acknowledges that. Not really. So, yes, there were times when she was a crappy daughter. I do feel like she was more awful to Emily than to Richard though. 

[fitzcarraldo]

If Emily ever spoke to Lorelai like she rants and raves to Luke re getting back together for HER benefit, even though he is a subpar human.... Why should Lorelai suck it up and accept they will never change? Is the onus only on her because she sprang from their loins? She tries to cut out the toxic prescence from her life best she knows how. We know Emily wont change but it goes worse for her when she dares to hope Emily will withdraw the fangs. Is it so wrong to long for warmth? My favorite Rory moments are when she protects her mom. Yelling at Emily for the Luke meddling and telling Chris to call her for baby info and leave Lorelai alone. But Lorelai doesnt get to see the protectiveness in action. It must have been very rare to feel anyone had HER back in the Gilmore household. I cant blame her if she has her own by avoiding Emily.

[twoods]

Lorelai was cold towards Emily before she got together with Luke- I could understand her distancing herself away from her parents after the way they treated Luke, but what did they do before? Lorelai never told her mom about her engagement to Max, starting her catering company, and trying to open the inn.  Then she threw the fit when she found out their interior decorator from the inn also worked with Emily ONCE. She purposely shut them out of her life. It was really sad to see. At least she asked for that article in American Tourist to be pulled, but she should have never said those things in the first place. Sometimes she is just as naive as her daughter.

Edited July 4, 2016 by twoods

[fitzcarraldo]

I don't know.... When Lorelai thanks Richard for standing up to Christopher's parents he makes it very hard on her. Knowing that your parents think you are a failure is crushing. I think the past disapproval is what they did. Lorelai doesn't get to see how much Emily wants her there like viewers do. To her credit, she notices small effort like pudding. Lorelai wants it too much to be chill like Rory. Rory doesn't have to crave more cause she has her mom. I see Lorelai as a kid still wishing they loved her for her. She acts like that kid, trying to get others on her "side". If someone other than Christopher had been there back then, maybe? Not being able to move on hurts her...

[Drapers4thWife]

Emily and Richard definitely had their faults, but at the same time I think Lorelai never matured and saw their side. Emily definitely was raised to have certain thoughts about things and saw her role in life as far different from what Lorelai wanted to grow up to be, but I never saw any evidence that Richard and Emily had unreasonable expectations for Lorelai. They mainly wanted Lorelai to have a good education. I have no doubts that they loved Lorelai, but Lorelai was also no angel. Before she even got pregnant at 15, we know she was drinking underage, partying and getting into trouble with Christopher. She was no Rory, and she was probably even worse than Jess. 

Once she got pregnant, of course they wanted her to marry Christopher because in their generation, that's what you did when you got knocked up out of wedlock. And since he had been her friend and/or boyfriend since she'd been small, they probably thought Lorelai and Christopher were destined for marriage anyway even without the pregnancy. But once she said no, she didn't want to, she apparently still lived with Richard and Emily during the pregnancy and for a year or so after Rory's birth. While they may have been unhappy about the decision not to marry, there's no indication they didn't accept it.

Part of the problem is that there was no concrete feeling around Lorelai's rebellion. What exactly did her parents not support her in, aside from her teen pregnancy and general troublemaking? Hell, they even liked the boyfriend who got her pregnant! She didn't dream of being an actress and they were forcing her into medical school or anything like that.  They were of course unhappy about the pregnancy because they knew, better than Lorelai did, how teen pregnancies could absolutely ruin someone's life unless they were very, very lucky. But they didn't kick Lorelai out or force her into marriage, she stayed at home with her baby and wanted for nothing. Had she stayed, I'm guessing they would have eventually gotten a nanny for Rory and financially supported Lorelai while she went to college. Lorelai was never going to be a business person liked Richard or a scholar like Rory, but I'm sure Emily would probably have been thrilled if Lorelai had gone to school for costume or fashion design or event planning, or whatever Lorelai was passionate about at the time, because those are suitable roles for women in her world.

I absolutely think Richard really meant what he said when he went off on Christopher's dad and talked about how proud he was of Lorelai, etc. I think what happened afterward, in his den, was that he was profoundly uncomfortable when Lorelai came to him to thank him for it because he still felt conflicted about it. He can be proud about what Lorelai accomplished and how she made it on her own, but he can still be hurt that she rejected him and Emily, that he missed out on so much of Rory's life, that (in his mind) Lorelai resents and rejects everything about him. In his mind, he gave Lorelai everything a father was supposed to, and every advantage, and then she broke his and Emily's hearts over nothing. She forced them out of their granddaughter's life until she needed their money and connections, then was happy to partake again but was resentful and making fun all the way.

What if Rory hadn't been such an easygoing, passive kid? What if Lorelai had raised a Jess instead, who hated the smalltown life of Stars Hollow and everything Lorelai built in her life? What if Rory belittled Lorelai's career and social circle the way Lorelai did to her parents? What if Rory thought Stars Hollow was suffocating in the same way Lorelai thought her parents' world was? What if Rory was out at such a young age making trouble, like Lorelai had? How would Lorelai have felt? And what if Rory got pregnant and then one day, just disappeared with Lorelai's granddaughter?

The ironic thing is that as soon as Rory did something to "betray" Lorelai in her eyes, Lorelai froze her out, just like she did her parents. 

[JayInChicago]

The Emily/Lorelai conflict is one of my favorite aspects of the show. It's pretty well tred territory here, but there's always new insights. I usually see my allegiance flip flop as I rewatch. This time I've been pretty neutral. Emily has the capacity to easily ruin any good will Lorelai works up towards her. Unfortunately we don't have that great an idea what their relationship was like before Lorelai got pregnant--Emily seems haughty and demanding in the bit with the picture and the dress in the pregnancy flashback episode, but Lorelai is also already shown at 15 as being pretty wild. Chicken and egg with them.

[Anela]

On 7/3/2016 at 9:19 PM, Drapers4thWife said:

 

She didn't want to. Rory called her in a panic and begged her to come. I actually think Lorelai handled it brilliantly - she stayed overnight but she also used her time there to get Rory to reach out to her roommates and approach the other kids so that by the next day, Rory was over most of her anxiety about being in a new place and surrounded by new people. The other girls came over the next morning to invite Rory to coffee and orientation with them. Lorelai didn't hunker down and play slumber party locked in Rory's room, she forced Rory out of her shell to overcome her anxiety because she knew she couldn't permanently camp out on the floor. That she COULD be there to help out the first night I thought was sweet and completely normal. Not every kid responds to a hard-ass "throw you in the deep end" approach. It's not unusual for a kid away at college for the first time to need a bit of handholding.  

I love that episode, and it has one of my favourite lines, from what I remember. Something about Rory Gilmore, reporting from a foxhole, with her mommy. LOL. Up until the last few years, I was that close to my mother, so I get it. 

[cbcnurse]

On July 5, 2016 at 3:00 PM, JayInChicago said:

I loved that conflict and I always thought one of the main issues between them was the fact that they were too similar. They both had very dominant (and sometimes somewhat childish) personalities. They both wanted things their way. Whenever we encountered someone from Emily and Richard's world they were always commenting about how similar Lorelai was to her mother, or commenting on Emily's "wicked" streak. I think the main difference was Emily did everything exactly the way she was supposed to based on the world she grew up in. I think that's part of what bothered Emily so much. She sees herself in Lorelai and can't understand why Lorelai can't fit into their world when she was able to. I always felt Rory's similarities to Lorelai were superficial which was why they got along so well. Rory was quiet and studious and more willing to take a backseat to Lorelai's more boisterous personality.

[Taryn74]

7 hours ago, cbcnurse said:

I think the main difference was Emily did everything exactly the way she was supposed to based on the world she grew up in. I think that's part of what bothered Emily so much. She sees herself in Lorelai and can't understand why Lorelai can't fit into their world when she was able to. 

 

Oh that's a very interesting point!

[txhorns79]

Quote

I think the main difference was Emily did everything exactly the way she was supposed to based on the world she grew up in. I think that's part of what bothered Emily so much. She sees herself in Lorelai and can't understand why Lorelai can't fit into their world when she was able to. 

That's true.  In a way, if Emily broadened her thinking, she'd see that Lorelai was just a variation of her, i.e. very rigid, set in her ways and utterly convinced that her "way" is the correct way of doing things. 

[junienmomo]

 It should also be noted that Emily was far more successful in her world then Lorelai was in hers. Emily had an extensive group of friends, connections and was effective in maintaining those. She also ably performed the role of corporate wife.

Lorelai had professional success,  but even that was tempered by the loss of the independence Inn on her watch.  Additionally, she had many major problems in her relationships with others, which Emily did not have. Emily pretty much only had problems with her daughter, and later Richard. The problem with Richard would not have happened if Lorelai had followed any of the basic rules of Emily's society.  First, she wasn't even invited to the game, and second, she made improper jokes to Pennilyn Lott,  making it possible for Emily to figure out something strange was going on. 

[FictionLover]

28 minutes ago, junienmomo said:

 It should also be noted that Emily was far more successful in her world then Lorelai was in hers. Emily had an extensive group of friends, connections and was effective in maintaining those. She also ably performed the role of corporate wife.

Lorelai had professional success,  but even that was tempered by the loss of the independence Inn on her watch.  Additionally, she had many major problems in her relationships with others, which Emily did not have. Emily pretty much only had problems with her daughter, and later Richard. The problem with Richard would not have happened if Lorelai had followed any of the basic rules of Emily's society.  First, she wasn't even invited to the game, and second, she made improper jokes to Pennilyn Lott,  making it possible for Emily to figure out something strange was going on. 

However,  it was not Lorelai's fault that Richard lied by omission for many years. Had he thought it was okay for that yearly lunch, he would be up front about it and the whole problem would never had occurred. 

[JaggedLilPill]

Oh, come on now. I know Lorelai has flaws, and I'll grant that they are at times serious ones, but not everything is her fault.

The Independence Inn was not lost on her watch. There was a fire. Unless Lorelai had super powers, I'm not sure how she could have predicted that. And there was a night manager aka Tobin. Where was he when the fire started? I see nothing that suggests Lorelai was a negligent manager. I'm sure the Inn was inspected enough. 

Secondly, yes, the first comments to Pennilyn Lott were very immature and she shouldn't have said them, but the second time? There was a line for the bathroom and IIRC, Pennilyn spoke first making a comment about said long line. If Emily wants to live in a dream world where Richard meeting up with his ex for lunch and lying about it is Lorelai's fault, then so be it. But she's an asshole for it IMO. Emily goes on and on about being left in the dark when it comes to Lorelai's life, but then turns around and wants to pretend like she would be a-okay still being in the dark when it comes to what Richard is doing? It's not Lorelai's fault that Richard is secretly having lunch with this woman.

And I disagree that Emily and Richard would have had no problems. You see the cracks in season two when he retires without telling Emily and then is disconnected from her when he's trying to figure out retired life. Secondly, Emily hates her mother-in-law and Richard is perfectly fine letting the passive-aggressive comments coming from Trix directed at Emily go without saying something as innocent as "Mom, you're hurting my wife's feelings." Third, before Jason and Lorelai even started dating, Richard decided to go with Jason's idea instead of Emily's party and to her, that was a betrayal, even if she didn't let Richard know that. There's a whole host of reasons proving that their marriage was not rock solid, and I think the separation would have happened without the Pennilyn Lott incident. I know we don't know for sure if Richard got Trix's letter, but if he did, he's kind of a jerk for letting his mother - who was begging him to leave Emily at the altar - stay in their house making snotty remarks to his wife.

[junienmomo]

Of course Richard/Pennilyn wasn't Lorelai's fault. She was merely the communication vehicle. Emily thought about it and deduced that something was going on. My point is, everyone of Emily's and Richard's friends never spoke of it, and there was enough gossip going on in the DAR that it's reasonable to suspect that others knew. But they followed the society's rules of not talking to certain people and therefore Emily never got the chance to discover it. Lorelai didn't, normally no big deal, but this particular time enough smalltalk triggered Emily's thought processes. Not Lorelai's fault.

I agree with JaggedLilPill that Richard had a history of living a major part of his life without informing Emily. Huh, who would have suspected that a forty year marriage would be broken up by communication problems? 

Jagged's list is a good one, to which I'll add not telling Emily that Richard had put his whole pension into his new business. I think the final straw and the trigger to their breakup was Richard's refusal to consider Lorelai's situation when he decided to sue Jason.

Funny. Looking at that list of things Emily suffered through, Lorelai hiding her pain from Luke during the second half of Season 6 makes some actual character sense. 

As to the Inn fire, being "sure" that the inspections were done isn't canon. And given that the Dragonfly also had a kitchen fire, that's two fires in four years under the same manager, something's not right. Lorelai bears the managerial accountability. 

[txhorns79]

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As to the Inn fire, being "sure" that the inspections were done isn't canon. And given that the Dragonfly also had a kitchen fire, that's two fires in four years under the same manager, something's not right. Lorelai bears the managerial accountability. 

With due respect, there was no suggestion whatsoever that the fire at the Independence occurred because of anything Lorelai did or did not do.  I agree that Lorelai is ultimately responsible for anything happening under her watch, but the accountability is limited by what is actually reasonable.   

[Drapers4thWife]

Oh, Emily and Lorelai were so alike. Just as, ironically, I think Rory and Christopher were more alike than Rory and Lorelai. 

Especially whenever Emily freaked out (like when getting ready for her date with the country club guy) you could totally see where Lorelai got her personality and mannerisms from. I always thought that's secretly why Lorelai was freaking out about having the same interior designer - it freaked her out that she didn't know her mom's connection yet she still chose the same designer based on her work, meaning she has very similar tastes to Emily. 

[junienmomo]

12 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

With due respect, there was no suggestion whatsoever that the fire at the Independence occurred because of anything Lorelai did or did not do.  I agree that Lorelai is ultimately responsible for anything happening under her watch, but the accountability is limited by what is actually reasonable.   

True, but as a process and statistics specialist, two occurrences of a highly unlikely and dangerous event is going to catch my notice, as it should have the Fire Marshall. The most obvious connection between the Independence fire and the Dragonfly fire is the management team. That's why I judge it so harshly in retrospect. 

Lorelai was manager of both inns. For a second albeit smaller fire to occur within what, a year, year and a half of opening after a fire closed the last inn, I'm honestly surprised that news didn't get out to the general public and cause them financial problems with the Dragonfly.

12 minutes ago, Drapers4thWife said:

Oh, Emily and Lorelai were so alike. Just as, ironically, I think Rory and Christopher were more alike than Rory and Lorelai. 

Especially whenever Emily freaked out (like when getting ready for her date with the country club guy) you could totally see where Lorelai got her personality and mannerisms from. I always thought that's secretly why Lorelai was freaking out about having the same interior designer - it freaked her out that she didn't know her mom's connection yet she still chose the same designer based on her work, meaning she has very similar tastes to Emily. 

The more we talk about it, the stronger the likeness becomes. How many years was Emily passive in many aspects of her relationship with Richard? Her biggest response seemed to be revenge shopping. 

[txhorns79]

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True, but as a process and statistics specialist, two occurrences of a highly unlikely and dangerous event is going to catch my notice, as it should have the Fire Marshall. The most obvious connection between the Independence fire and the Dragonfly fire is the management team. That's why I judge it so harshly in retrospect. 

Lorelai was manager of both inns. For a second albeit smaller fire to occur within what, a year, year and a half of opening after a fire closed the last inn, I'm honestly surprised that news didn't get out to the general public and cause them financial problems with the Dragonfly.

It may catch your notice, but ultimately, if there is nothing to suggest anything untoward happened, and no suggestion of mismanagement, there's really nothing for you to do.      

[junienmomo]

2 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

It may catch your notice, but ultimately, if there is nothing to suggest anything untoward happened, and no suggestion of mismanagement, there's really nothing for you to do.      

Oh, sorry, that was jargon. I should have been explicit. If two unlikely and dangerous events occur, then an investigation to determine the root cause is needed. I'm also in favor of stopping this discussion as I think it's not going to advance our enjoyment of GG, so I'll respectfully bow out now. 

[JaggedLilPill]

3 hours ago, junienmomo said:

Funny. Looking at that list of things Emily suffered through, Lorelai hiding her pain from Luke during the second half of Season 6 makes some actual character sense. 

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The more we talk about it, the stronger the likeness becomes. How many years was Emily passive in many aspects of her relationship with Richard? Her biggest response seemed to be revenge shopping. 

I agree with this. Especially if you compare how hysterical they both get when they've reached their boiling points. Emily flips out in front of the mall staff while Lorelai does it on the street while giving Luke an ultimatum. Nothing really gets solved in either matter.

I think that's why Lorelai tried so hard to be a different kind of mother for Rory. I don't mean to say Lorelai is an open book with strangers, but when it comes to Rory, they usually have an open, honest relationship. Whereas with Emily and Lorelai, you can see there's a tendency to brush issues under the rug, especially when they become uncomfortable. Or rather, Emily is more apt to not want to discuss issues with Lorelai and chooses to make what could be considered passive-aggressive remarks until Lorelai can't take it anymore and that's usually when a confrontation happens.

[moonb]

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 It should also be noted that Emily was far more successful in her world then Lorelai was in hers. Emily had an extensive group of friends, connections and was effective in maintaining those. She also ably performed the role of corporate wife.

Lorelai had professional success,  but even that was tempered by the loss of the independence Inn on her watch.  Additionally, she had many major problems in her relationships with others, which Emily did not have.

 

 

I'd actually argue that Emily had management problems in her world herself, though her inability to keep maids was played as a running joke. In real life Emily would run into problems, just like Lorelai would have with the fires. 

 

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I think that's why Lorelai tried so hard to be a different kind of mother for Rory. I don't mean to say Lorelai is an open book with strangers, but when it comes to Rory, they usually have an open, honest relationship. Whereas with Emily and Lorelai, you can see there's a tendency to brush issues under the rug, especially when they become uncomfortable. Or rather, Emily is more apt to not want to discuss issues with Lorelai and chooses to make what could be considered passive-aggressive remarks until Lorelai can't take it anymore and that's usually when a confrontation happens.

I don't see Rory and Lorelai ever having an Emily/Lorelai relationship, but you can see Rory/Lorelai start to brush some things under the rug over the series - that's probably only natural. Rory does shut down with Lorelai over Jess/Dean/Logan/Yale issues many times, and Lorelai becomes more tentative in broaching sensitive subjects with Rory, fearing that Rory would pull a Lorelai-esque estrangement on her, I guess. A huge difference, though, is that passive aggressive nitpicking streak that is a result of so much hurt and misunderstanding on both Emily's and Lorelai's parts.