S05.E04: 6,741

[ElectricBoogaloo]

NOTE: In May, Person of Interest will be airing two episodes a week, the first on Monday and the second on Tuesday. In June, the show will revert back to one episode a week on Tuesdays.

Quote

Shaw escapes her captors, but the team is unsure of her mental state when she begins to act paranoid and reckless.

Promo:

 

[Cranberry]

This episode will be airing on CTV here in Canada on Sunday, May 15 at 9pm, according to their official page.

[mtlchick]

Canadian here.  At least the Root/Shaw fans are going to LOOOOVE that scene.  

[StarBrand]

Well, that was a bit of a mind fuck. Pretty much everything seemed "off", so it surprised me not that this was a simulation. Although it did give us an idea of Shaw's state of mind-she's wondering if Finch gave up on her. And Root is her "safe place"-she would rather shoot herself in every scenerio than kill Root.

Those kudos for Shadi's performance were well deserved.

[Cranberry]

Yeah, I wasn't surprised by the ending, either.

I didn't like this one as much as I expected to, mostly because (like StarBrand said) everything seemed "off" (Root living in a real apartment, the abrupt transition between the declined kiss and the sex, Finch leaving the Mayhem Twins alone and plugging in the USB without thorough testing, Root leaving Shaw alone at all, especially with her acting so weird, Shaw fatally shooting both Greer and Reese this early in the season) and I was waiting for the other shoe to drop the entire time. I felt like If-Then-Else's simulation reveal was much more elegantly done. That said, I am a Root/Shaw fan, so I enjoyed "the scene," and I enjoyed the confirmation that Shaw does care deeply for Root even more. I hope Shaw can make it out of there and rejoin the team for real soon, although I'm not sure that's likely at this point.

I think I'll need to rewatch the episode knowing how it ends; I might enjoy it more when I'm not on edge the entire time. There was definitely a benefit to binge-watching the first four seasons for the first time this winter... I didn't know all the details, but I knew the characters' fates. I don't need the stress of "anyone can die" shows!

[Agent Dark]

In this episode - Shaw figures out a loophole to keep have sexy-time dreams of Root, whilst waiting for Team Machine to get off their asses and rescue her.

 

 

 

Also, I'm going to re-watch to form some more critical thoughts :p

Edited May 16, 2016 by Agent Dark

[Gabe Torres]

On first watch I was feeling a bit underwhelmed. The pacing seemed odd, and the reveal in the end made it clear why. It had however robbed me of being fully immersed into the episode on first watch. But then I thought more and more about the episode and re-watched and there are so many good things to it that I like it so much more now.

From what I gathered, Samaritan was running different scenarios on Shaw, where it was observing how she would react and guiding her towards giving up the information it wants. So it was this sort of mix of how Shaw thinks Team Machine act and react, and what Samaritan knows and thinks. I reckon the simulation been constantly tweaked in order to push Shaw towards giving Samaritan what it wants, and also make it harder for her to 'break it'.
Whenever the whole blurry, high pitch 'reality break' happened for Shaw, it seemed to be when Samaritan directly manipulated the simulation in a very overt manner, and tried to control/push Shaw towards certain behaviour or outcome.

And there in lies the beauty of this episode, as it reveals a shit ton of Shaw's emotional landscape on a level we never had before.

Shaw isn't someone that is very verbal with her emotions, at least not outside regarding food, anger or sex. We usually learn about her emotions in how she  cares and protect for certain people for example how she spoils bear with new dog collar and huge treats or how she is very very insistent on going after and protect members of Team Machine + Gen. But this episode we got a truckloads of information both in the form of verbal and in how Shaw imagines Team Machine to react to her 'homecoming'. In Shaw's head Root would never give up on her and would place herself firmly in Shaw's camp. However she views Harold as someone that would had given up based on what knowledge they had. She also sees John as someone that would pick up on her being off, then offer to sit down and have coffee with her and give her his support.

Without a doubt she has broken the simulation at different points and Samaritan managed to improve upon it each and every time, but killing Root? That, and giving up the Machine location are the two things they can't push her to.

Shaw chose to make her safe place a mix of the one location where she physically pushed herself beyond reason as a child, and the person she cares for the most - Root.

I do wonder just how cognizant Shaw was of it being a simulation. I feel like there was subtle hints sprinkled throughout it all, and it is a bit up to interpretation if Shaw knows on some level, or if she truly believed it all to be real and chose to shot herself in the head opposed to risk killing Root.
The mental and emotional strength that Shaw possesses is monstrous. 6741 times she has been through that, and killed herself in the end in order to resist Samaritan. Shaw is without a doubt a total beast.

One thing I found funny though was that in Shaw's mind, Root's nicknames for her became more 'variated' and she didn't even bat an eye or as usually an eye roll. Like Root straight out called her "my beautiful girl" and Shaw was just kept talking and enjoying Root's attention lol. Another thing I noticed and found sort of endearing is for all their 'roughness' their post coital scene was awfully soft and sweet.

Minor thought, I do wonder if Shaw in one of the simulations inadvertently did give up Root etc. or did something that lead to the events of Asylum. As in she thought she was escaping or the like, but in reality she was under one of the simulations.

For the acting, Shahi and Acker really blew it out of the park. Shahi really sold everything with how run down she looked and the emotional switches.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Gabe Torres

[Agent Dark]

11 minutes ago, Gabe Torres said:

On first watch I was feeling a bit underwhelmed. The pacing seemed odd, and the reveal in the end made it clear why. It had however robbed me of being fully immersed into the episode on first watch. But then I thought more and more about the episode and re-watched and there are so many good things to it that I like it so much more now.

I think I was exactly the same, which on reflection makes me like the episode even more - it mirrors the confusion Shaw was feeling.  The sudden escape, then Root saves her, now we're at Roots swank digs (what?), the chip is gone, BEAR, sexy times, go capture Greer (what?), kill-code found (what?), Greer is DEAD! (what?), REESE IS DEAD! (what?), ROOT IS SHAW'S SAFE PLACE!, SHAW IS DEAD!!! (what?) and so on.  A lot was happening, and there was alot of sudden jumping between it all.  Then the reveal that its all a simulation, and when you re-watch everything becomes so much more coherent.  Interesting choice for an episode, given that a re-watch is almost required to make it all out but I personally kinda like that.  It feels like a more interactive experience for a TV episode, and something that is out of the ordinary.

 

Good fake-out on the title of the episode.  I'd assumed that 6,741 was a reference to the amount of hours Shaw had been in Samaritan's clutches (ie roughly 9months).  6,741 simulations that Shaw has resisted is such an awesome reveal, and goes to show how badass Shaw is.  It's a really good look into Shaw's psyche, how she views her comrades, how strong her mental walls are (6,741 times and she never gives away the location of the Subway, the cover identities or even that Fusco is part of their operation) and how deep she cares for Root.  Samaritan might be able to force her into shooting Reese, but she'll turn the gun on herself before hurting Root.  Dark as that is, that's a pretty amazing way of depicting how much Shaw loves Root.  I think its amazing how the subtext has become canon with those two, and has happened so naturally over the show.

 

And I'll echo the applause for Sarah's acting.  That was a brilliant performance.  I totally get and agree why Nolan and Plageman put this episode in their top 8 episodes of all time (Many Happy Returns, Firewall, Bad Code, Relevance, The Devil's Share, Deus Ex Machina and If-Then-Else are the other 7 they picked).

[StarBrand]

I knew things were off for real when Shaw just casually walked around the store with blood on her hands, then wiping it off on the cashier's shirt. The only question to me was when the trickery was revealed, and where exactly would Shaw be? Did she actually escape, or was she still a prisoner?

This is one of those episodes people will probably have to watch more than once to really have things sink in. Some people might think the ending was a cop-out. I disagree. The showrunners said they would show exactly what Shaw has been though this whole time, and I suspected, the torture inflicted on her was more psychological than physical. And ultimately shows how strong Shaw is, because in 6,741 versions of the simulation, she's never given Greer and co. anything they want-the machine's location, the hideout, anything at all compromising Team Machine.

And if the Root/Shaw gymnastics (even if they weren't real in this case) are a "preview" of what might happen when Root and Shaw actually re-unite...lookout...

[DEM]

3 hours ago, Gabe Torres said:

Without a doubt she has broken the simulation at different points and Samaritan managed to improve upon it each and every time, but killing Root? That, and giving up the Machine location are the two things they can't push her to.

Shaw chose to make her safe place a mix of the one location where she physically pushed herself beyond reason as a child, and the person she cares for the most - Root.

This took me completely out of the episode.  Root as Shaw's Safe Place™ strikes me as completely unearned. Where? When?  It paints Shaw as some sort of trope-y "oh noze, feelings! Iz scared!" stock character. That is largely at odds to how I see her and creates deep cracks in her characterisation overall.

All for a ship.

In contrast, other "emotional" displays didn't bother me.  The math worked out to one simulation per hour for 9 months.  That is a level of stress that is beyond the pale.  And contrary to popular opinion, having psychopathy does not mean the person MUST have complete, asolute, Kelvin-zero lack of emotion. It just doesn't, and it's not what's been depicted in Shaw.

Edited May 16, 2016 by DEM

[wevel]

I was really slow - at various points (Shaw's interactions with the store clerk, Root having an apartment!), I was like, "This is kind of odd," but I never thought Samaritan-instigated simulation until it was revealed; I just wondered whether Shaw was failing to properly distinguish reality from non.  But of course, the simulation makes complete sense and I'm not surprised other viewers caught on quickly.  Shaw shooting Reese was the first big WTF moment for me, but actually, what struck me as most off was Shaw being so *emotional* - she was teary multiple times, there was her whole "My safe place is you" confession to Root ... I'm not sure how I feel about that yet.  Was that Samaritan being off in terms of imagining how Shaw would be in various scenarios?  Is it meant to reveal a deeper emotionality in Shaw that we simply have not seen to date?  Because I can't see non-sim Shaw being quite that vulnerable, not even to Root in a life-or-death situation (the end of 4X11 perfectly epitomized Shaw at her most emotional, I think).

But in any case, great look inside Sameen's mind, especially if we assume that the bulk of the simulation narrative came from her.  Loved how we got her having a sweet reunion with Bear while being openly bitter about Harold giving up on her.  Nice insights into her childhood determination to conquer her nausea on the revolving thing.  Root's significance.  And most importantly, her astonishing mental strength in holding out Samaritan in terms of the subway location and choosing to take herself out of the equation after killing Reese. 

It took over a year to see Shaw again, but DAMN, what a return.

Edited May 16, 2016 by wevel

[StarBrand]

Quote

Was that Samaritan being off in terms of imagining how Shaw would be in various scenarios?  Is it meant to reveal a deeper emotionality in Shaw that we simply have not seen to date?  Because I can't see non-sim Shaw being quite that vulnerable, not even to Root in a life-or-death situation (the end of 4X11 perfectly epitomized Shaw at her most emotional, I think).

That's the thing. We're not sure how much of it is Samaritan's view of how Shaw would act, and how much is her.

You also have to remember, she's played this scenerio over 6000 times-has she reacted the same way each time?

[Gabe Torres]

3 hours ago, DEM said:

This took me completely out of the episode.  Root as Shaw's Safe Place™ strikes me as completely unearned. Where? When?  It paints Shaw as some sort of trope-y "oh noze, feelings! Iz scared!" stock character. That is largely at odds to how I see her and creates deep cracks in her characterisation overall.

All for a ship.

In contrast, other "emotional" displays didn't bother me.  The math worked out to one simulation per hour for 9 months.  That is a level of stress that is beyond the pale.  And contrary to popular opinion, having psychopathy does not mean the person MUST have complete, asolute, Kelvin-zero lack of emotion. It just doesn't, and it's not what's been depicted in Shaw.

As you bring up 24 simulations a day is just insane with regards to stress. I doubt Shaw from the beginning even had a safe place. I think it took shape as simulations kept on tearing her down piece by piece, and she then constructed it in defence. I think it is likely it started out with the roundabout, particularly as it represents Shaw overcoming something physical, which is a part she is far more comfortable with.

I disagree with regards to your first paragraph though.  Shaw (used to) consider herself as someone that doesn't really have those feelings type of feelings i.e. love, affection, concern, fear. It is not because she is afraid of feelings, it is just she has viewed herself as someone completely unable to feel those type of emotions and attributed to her self-diagnosed AXIS II personality. Then during her time with Team Machine she has (grudgingly) come to admit that she is capable of caring for people. Her sacrifice in ITE is essentially the culmination of that.

The selection of Root makes sense to me and not based on being for the sake of ship, but on the characters and relationships. The safe place consisted of two things. One related to Shaw overcoming something physical. The roundabout made her throw up easily, so she just kept at it for sun up to sun down despite constantly retching since it made her so angry that her body wouldn't do what she wanted. Then there is an emotional component. Just which person could fill that in? For the simulation to work best it had to be someone alive since someone dead running about would be a huge red flag. Out of Shaw's mother, Reese, Finch, Fusco, Gen and Root, I do believe the latter is the one she has formed the type of connection to that could serve as safe-place best.

Disregarding romantic aspects to begin with, Root is someone that has complete faith in Shaw. In a simulation where she is constantly made to doubt herself, and her own loyalty to Team Machine, Root is the person that would be a total blind believer in Shaw. This is also sort of illustrated in how when Shaw is 'waking up' after her subway train surgery, she overhears Finch doubting Shaw and Root defending Shaw and re-affirming her belief in Shaw. And not only that, she is also someone that would never give up on Shaw, whereas revealed we see that Shaw do believes Finch and thereby extension Reese would do that. I think as a person for Shaw to select as her 'safe place' when it comes to her mental/emotional well-being, Root represents and offers aspects Shaw direly needs/needed in order to keep resisting. I.e. complete and utter total near fanatic faith in Shaw's ability to have resisted.

Another thing if you take a look at how Root treats Shaw in the simulation. Now Root is made up by Samaritan and then been throughout simulations adjusted more and more closely to how Shaw sees her based on how Shaw has interacted with Sim!Root. It wouldn't surprise me either if Sim!Root is also adjusted to act more like what Shaw and Samaritan think Shaw needs Root to be. Root was definitely acting a tad OOC as well.

What does Root do here in the simulation when she isn't pushing for Shaw to take her to the Machine? Root is shown to physically offer sex, which is definitely something Shaw uses to enjoy herself and de-stress. Another part is she offered at several instances comfort and notably post-coital she talks about wanting to take revenge for what Samaritan 'did to Shaw'. That is definitely something that speaks to Shaw as a person, and the simulation has Root appealing to that aspect while simultaneously showing anger on behalf of what Shaw has endured. For someone like Shaw that is under such immense and complete mental and emotional duress, those things serve as hmm maybe life lines are too strong of a concept, but something of a crutch? Shaw isn't big on romance or romantic relationships, but those type of things can and do provide Shaw with some 'stability' and help in dealing with the duress she is under. Notably Root is offering support in a way that is acceptable to Shaw as well in the simulation. Most of the time she is doing things in reaction to things Shaw expresses or things that fall within 'stuff that appeals to Shaw; sex, vengeance, food (Root going out to fetch some).

Putting all these things together, I can't see whom else it could be but Root when it comes to taking a person to essentially represent the emotional and mental safe place of Shaw and offering those physical components. Reese, Fusco and Finch would all be way to weird with regards to the comfort or sex, and they wouldn't offer the same things as Root in the same way without it seeming completely out of wack. Furthermore that is also why I partly think Root is the one Shaw can't kill. Root in a way represents Shaw breaking as she is the one person that wouldn't believe Shaw to ever break. Therefore Shaw killing Root is essentially equivalent with Shaw giving in. YMMV of course.

The TL:DR version: For what Shaw needed and would help her the most when it came to having a person be her emotional and mental safe-place, Root is the one most qualified for it. Both in terms of what she can offer as a character inside the simulations (while remaining relatively in character) and also what she represents in regards to Shaw.
 

3 hours ago, wevel said:

I was really slow - at various points (Shaw's interactions with the store clerk, Root having an apartment!), I was like, "This is kind of odd," but I never thought Samaritan-instigated simulation until it was revealed; I just wondered whether Shaw was failing to properly distinguish reality from non.  But of course, the simulation makes complete sense and I'm not surprised other viewers caught on quickly.

A re-watch really makes things so much more obvious. At the top of my head there are several things that are just 'factually' wrong.

Root was doing regular numbers.
Root using one gun instead of two.
Root had an apartment.
Shaw knows about Arthur Claypool yet Finch(?) started explaining to her whom he was.
Root should know about Shaw's old scars on her back but in the simulation she didn't.

And I bet there are more that I didn't catch. Despite my initial viewing, this episode has really grown on me fast when looking closer on it. Very very well crafted.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Gabe Torres
trying to make this monster post shorter yikes

[Gulftastic]

I sort of knew it was a big fake out after John got shot, but that scene in the playground was beyond tense. I was glued to the screen, hardly daring to breathe.

[mtlchick]

Quote

I sort of knew it was a big fake out after John got shot, but that scene in the playground was beyond tense. I was glued to the screen, hardly daring to breathe.

Admittedly I should have picked it up once they were at Root's apartment given Finch's shopping spree for purple shag carpeting for the hide out.  But when she shot John I was like "HUH?!" (looks at DVR info for Tuesday, looks at press releases.)  "Waaaaait a minute. Something is up."

[atua]

The injury from the mind control chip surgery being inconsistent is another tip off. It's usually on Shaw's left side of the neck, but in reflections/mirrors it's on the viewer's left and Shaw's right hand side.

[StarBrand]

I wonder, when Root and Shaw actually meet in person again, if Shaw will bring up her simulation adventures...

"They wanted me to kill you, but I said fuck that, and blew my brains out; and I also boinked you every single time."

[AimingforYoko]

Kind of a depressing ending. What a mind fuck.

Of course it was obvious when she shot Reese, but the glitches were kind of clues. I do wonder if the boys in the lab coats enjoyed Shoot as much as a lot of us did.

[benteen]

I suspected a simulation as the show went on.  I admit, I'm not crazy about a reset button episode so late in the game for POI.

[MDKNIGHT]

Got to admit despite my millions of hours of tv watching they got me.  I think it is because I'm a sporatic watcher so the little ways things were off didn't register.  That and the fact that with the 100 giving us the dead lesbian  immediately after making love cliché so recently I was expecting the worse.  I now believe two things.  One is that the writers were cackling to themselves in the writers room while telling each other "and now when she shoots herself a bunch of fans will be throwing stuff at the screen and cursing us out and then we pull back and we DIDN'T do the dead lesbian immediately after making love cliché.  Brilliant!" The other is that whoever wrote the sex scene has read Xena fanfiction.  The breakage is a dead give away  ;)

I really enjoyed this ep. It was like a good thriller.

[Gigi43]

I guess I was fooled because the from the first scene in Root's 'apartment' on I thought this was going to turn out to be some dream of Root's, and end with either The Machine having actually located Shaw or her arriving at where ever Shaw is really being held. With only thirteen episodes, I'm bothered that one is essentially a dream. C'mon no way Reese is killed in episode 4 and not even at the last minute of said episode. Even with If-Than-Else, something actually happened at the end.  I guess Shoot fans will be happy? Or no, since it wasn't really a reunion. Hopefully they'll get a real payoff eventually. I don't object to 'Shoot' but I do not buy off one kiss that I thought Shaw really did for Root's sake means the relationship really goes both ways.

 

Two episodes now without Fusco? Unless Kevin Chapman needed off, that's unacceptable.  

 

It's sort've a shame "John's a professional dick" wasn't 'really' said to his face.

[thuganomics85]

Knew it was going to be some kind of simulation early on.  I just felt all of Shaw's escapes were too easy, felt like "Reese" and "Finch" were a bit off (the real ones would have been way more suspicious and less mute), capturing Greer easily and killing him, Shaw and Root hooking up seemed like it was too much of a good thing for both characters, and all of her sudden flashes and visions, were pretty big neon signs.  So, it wasn't that surprising of an episode.  Kind of interesting, but a bit disappointing.  I kind of was hoping they'd just go ahead and have Shaw back onto the team.

Why do I have a feeling that Greer probably has every single one of Shaw/Root's nights of passion, saved somewhere on a flashdrive, so he can get his creep on?  While the sex scene wasn't the most graphic I've seen, I did think it was hotter and heavier then most on the normally old-fashioned CBS, so I could just see some CBS executive being all "Oh, good heavens!" when he/she got the screener, while Nolan and crew are like "Yep!  And we ain't cutting, because we're on our way out!   You can't stop us, now!  Bwwah!"

I did like the reveal of the episode title being all the failed attempts to turn her.  Shaw is tough as hell.

Am a bit disappointed that poor Fusco didn't warrant any time in Shaw's mind-trip.  I guess he's just not important enough to warrant time in her brain.  Poor Fusco.

I always found Sarah Shahi beautiful, but she was ten times hotter at times here.  I guess it was all the sleeveless shirt looks.  And the whole ripping Amy Acker's shirt open thing....

[stealinghome]

Well, hot DAMN, that episode. I'm still gathering my thoughts. My initial impression is that while I liked this episode a lot, and it was definitely the most ambitious episode of the season, I did feel slightly underwhelmed relative to the way critics had been pumping this episode up. I get what the episode was going for, but it just fell a little bit flat for me. Not sure why. Maybe it's just because I was SO GROSSED OUT at the close-ups of the surgery and the ear and the blood...there's a reason I am not a medical doctor. Ick.

I think maybe part of it is that I strongly suspected from the start that something was off. I mean, I love Shaw and her badassery, but it was way, way too easy for her to escape. Even on a physical level--9 months of being drugged and tied down and she is physically fine?? And even quippier than she's ever been??? (Though I do love the idea that the Shaw quips we get in reality are only like 70% of what goes through her head.) And as others have mentioned, things were just off--like some of the things that people said to her sounded like doctors talking, so I wondered if Samaritan was "piping it in" somehow (which seems likely), the porn music that came in over the sex scene TOTALLY sounded like something a computer would play in that situation, it looked to me like they were in the safehouse and yet Root was calling it "her place" when she's never had a permanent apartment (and just set up shop in the subway), and it was all just way, way, way too easy. I think when they took Greer hostage so easily, that's when I was 99.9% sure it wasn't real. And then it become blindingly, 500% obvious when Shaw shot Reese. Things just moved too fast for you to really get that creeping sense of dread. It was too abnormal too quickly.

Before I forget, I want to give props to the directing and editing--they really effectively made you feel just as disjointed and disoriented as Shaw felt.

I do think the question of how much of that simulation is Shaw, and how much is Samaritan trying to playact as Shaw's friends, was a fascinating one. And you know, I just realized--it was a SO IMPORTANT that Lionel wasn't in the episode! Because Samaritan doesn't know about him!!! So Shaw's unconscious is refusing to give up important information. Which suggests that she populates the world more than I thought. Hm. Um, but back on target. I kind of love how Shaw has an instinctive understanding that Finch wrote her off for dead, that Reese is going to be supportive but suspicious, and Root is going to be 500% Team Shaw when she returns. My shipper heart is squeeing over all the Shoot goodness we got tonight, even if some of it was OOC--but I think that was part of the point. Samaritan was filling in the blanks and it had the right idea, but it was off. Root is never, ever going to call Shaw "my beautiful girl" and Shaw is never, ever going to take that one lying down (literally OR figuratively, ha). And wait, did Root call Shaw "sweetie" once, or was it all different terms of endearment? That was another thing that got my antenna going, the endearments that were off, and it would be a nice touch if Root never actually used "sweetie."

At any rate, I'm going to need Shoot to have a REAL sex scene when Shaw gets back, show, kthxbye.

Man, I can't believe Shaw has lived through that mindfuck 6,741 times. It'll probably be closer to 7500-8000 by the time she REALLY gets out...like, just, god damn. Poor Shaw. I wish we had a 22-episode season so we could see the aftereffects of this psychological torture played out for longer, because jfc, this will ACTUALLY break your brain. Just...thinking about the horrific nature of what Shaw's living through makes me want to cry.

Quote

I admit, I'm not crazy about a reset button episode so late in the game for POI.

Yeah, I hate to say it, but after the first two episodes of this season were so action-packed, the last two episodes have felt like we stalled out a bit, even if this episode certainly does contribute to the Samaritan mytharc. I wonder, if when it's all said and done, whether this one might have been better placed as #7 as it was filmed.

Man, I definitely need to rewatch this one again...or a few times. I think there's SO MUCH I will notice on a rewatch.

[Cranberry]

12 minutes ago, Gigi43 said:

Two episodes now without Fusco? Unless Kevin Chapman needed off, that's unacceptable.

I think it was actually a good thing that he wasn't in this episode; it means that Shaw has kept his involvement with Team Machine a complete secret from Samaritan. She hasn't given up the Machine's location or Fusco, and she refuses to kill Root more than 6,000 times. Tough as nails, that one.

Edit: Or what stealinghome said as I was typing this!

[Netfoot]

Something was obviously amiss from early O'Clock, what with the glitching, and the aberrant facts, like Root with an apartment.  But I never suspected any Virtual Light / Simulated Reality scenario until Shaw killed Greer.  Because Greer has to be slated for a far more ignominious end than that.  Right?  So, as soon as I saw that, I figured it to be some sort of dream sequence.  Reece was just the confirmation that nothing was as it seemed.

[buttersister]

Ha, I thought Reese and Harold were off throughout, so thanks, Ending, for explaining why!

[stealinghome]

Quote

Ha, I thought Reese and Harold were off throughout, so thanks, Ending, for explaining why!

Ha, yeah, the more I think about it, the more EVERYONE on Team Machine was off. Root was too saccharine and not annoying enough, hee (and we all know Root is hot for Shaw, but I'm not sure the real Root would be so forward with Shaw like an hour after Shaw got away from Samaritan and when she's still messed up). Finch was way, way too chill and reckless to be his usual paranoid self. Reese wasn't forceful enough...though I did love that Shaw's brain was able to seduce John into her plan with the promise of lots of explosives, ha! It kind of cracks me up to know how Shaw "sees" everyone else on the team. But yeah, Reese and Finch were way too tunnel vision-y as well.

Now that I'm thinking about it: I wonder if Root's cochlear implant was compromised in 4x21 because something in a simulation led Shaw to mention it. I also wonder if they were able to manipulate real Shaw to make the phone call to Root somehow? Or if that was just Samaritan having audio files of Shaw's voice and moving them around.

Edited May 17, 2016 by stealinghome

[Gabe Torres]

2 hours ago, stealinghome said:

Man, I can't believe Shaw has lived through that mindfuck 6,741 times. It'll probably be closer to 7500-8000 by the time she REALLY gets out...like, just, god damn. Poor Shaw. I wish we had a 22-episode season so we could see the aftereffects of this psychological torture played out for longer, because jfc, this will ACTUALLY break your brain. Just...thinking about the horrific nature of what Shaw's living through makes me want to cry.

Yeah, I hate to say it, but after the first two episodes of this season were so action-packed, the last two episodes have felt like we stalled out a bit, even if this episode certainly does contribute to the Samaritan mytharc. I wonder, if when it's all said and done, whether this one might have been better placed as #7 as it was filmed.

Man, I definitely need to rewatch this one again...or a few times. I think there's SO MUCH I will notice on a rewatch.

If you think about how long a simulation last inside Shaw's head, it is probably around a day whereas probably briefer in real time. But for Shaw in her mind at this point, she has experienced this type of simulation and blown her own brains out every day for over 18 years. I'm so with you about wanting more time to truly explore the effects of this type of psychological torture. Like how can Shaw after all of this ever really be sure she isn't in a simulation still?

For episode placement, I think they moved it around so

Spoiler

we wouldn't have Sim!Escape followed by an episode with actual escape/rescue (assuming ep 8 is the escape/rescue episode).

I think it was the wiser choice. Now we as an audience know what happens to Shaw every day that she is with Samaritan. To me it induces a stronger type of urgency, because I now know just what she is going through, and I god damn want Team Machine to come get her the fuck out of there more than ever.

On a completely different note, there was several scenes that punched me in the feelz so to say. One that hit me super hard on re-watch though was Sim!Reese's death. On first watch it didn't really hit me as I was at that point going yeah for sure this isn't real. On re-watch I got to more just be in the scene and feel a stronger impact. It is just good work from both. Shaw is lying to Finch and a panicked Root and the fatally wounded Reese - ever the god damn fighter - is trying to reach for his gun. The "don't" followed by the shaky exhale and "no please don't" from Shaw... To Shaw inside the simulation what a nightmare it must be. To kill your friends over and over again while slowly believing that you are under Samaritan control, and you just can't control yourself and not kill your friends. That dreading realization hitting Shaw every time leading her to off herself, though I suspect the earlier simulations were probably almost comically off, and Shaw was like lol this is dumb as fuck, you gotta do better.

Another thing I wonder, just how often is Shaw encouraged to go to the Machine's location? I think from Root it happens 3 times? With the last time being the one after Sim!Reese dies, and Shaw instead takes Sim!Root to the constructed safe-place.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Gabe Torres
adding spoiler tags

[bros402]

This episode was the low point of the season for me so far - though I think I might change this opinion after a rewatch or two of this episode. Watching it without going "It's a dream/simulation, damnit!" the whole episode might make it better.

[DeepRunner]

Overall, a good episode. Although there were some signs that it was a hoax early on (Finch and Reese seemed pretty robotic, and that might be Greer's view of them coming into play), it became very obvious roughly halfway through (in the catacombs below the church) that it was some sort of simulation or dream state that Shaw was in, a sort-of Total Recall flavor. The escape sequence was what we would have expected of Shaw. It was great to see her get Lambert. (I'm sorry, but for a bad guy, Julian Ovenden just doesn't have it. I get that they are trying to save him for the final battle, but it would have been great that Lambert be the first really big Samaritan soldier to be taken down. He's more Bland than Bond. It's a shame that Martine had to go at the end of last season...that would have made for a fascinating scene if it had been Martine vs. Shaw, even if only a simulation.) Everything from there went through progressions that seemed increasingly like a scenario, an homage to If-Then-Else.

At the end, the guy running the simulation noted that it took Shaw a full hour to try to kill Greer, so at least some of her instincts are still intact, if losing their place in her overall psyche. And now we know where the title of the episode came from.

Now, on to tonight's installment.

[Ellee]

Might I say .... The commentary here just adds to the show.  So, thank you. 

[FormerMod-a1]

8 hours ago, Gigi43 said:

... With only thirteen episodes, I'm bothered that one is essentially a dream. C'mon no way Reese is killed in episode 4 and not even at the last minute of said episode. Even with If-Than-Else, something actually happened at the end.  I guess Shoot fans will be happy? Or no, since it wasn't really a reunion. Hopefully they'll get a real payoff eventually. I don't object to 'Shoot' but I do not buy off one kiss that I thought Shaw really did for Root's sake means the relationship really goes both ways.

..

I kind of agree.  This was a fun watch, but what did we learn this episode?  Samaritan is using/torturing Shaw to try to get to the machine.  We already knew (or assumed) that, no?  We learned Shaw feels a connection to Root?  Nope, we already knew that, too.  We didn't learn anything else about anyone or anything else.  All the other characters were simulations.  Yeah, we kind of/maybe learned how she sees the other team members, but is that relevant right now?  We have so few episodes left.  Plus it's not like there was any radical realizations there.  We learned she's a "bad-ass" because she has taken this torture 6,741 times w/o cracking.  We already knew she was a bad-ass.

[benteen]

The critical reviews for this episode have been great.  I wish I could share it but it just didn't grab me.  Always nice though when this show does get recognition.

There was something earlier in the episode that I pegged as off.  Shaw stepping out of the cab without paying the driver.  I can see that happening of course but you don't have the driver yelling at her at all that she didn't pay him.  That was an earlier indication that things just aren't right.

I think Shaw's mind would have completely broken LONG before she reached 6,741 times.  Nobody's will is that strong..

[Sakura12]

I guess I'm in the minority since I enjoyed this episode. I liked the disoriented, disjointed feel of it since we were in Shaw's mind in a simulation. Sarah Shahi did a great job. I wonder if that's how Shaw sees her teammates or is that what Samaritan built for her based on the information it receives. That does show how strong Shaw is, 6,741 times and they haven't been able to break her. 

I thought this ep and these last few eps were showing how much these people mean to each other. Shaw is not feelings type of person, but through her torture by Samaritan, we are getting to see how much they do mean to her. She'd rather die over and over again rather than reveal where her friends and the Machine are. We saw Reese break up with Iris because he knows where his heart really lies, with his little makeshift family saving the world. 

[wevel]

9 hours ago, Gigi43 said:

I don't object to 'Shoot' but I do not buy off one kiss that I thought Shaw really did for Root's sake means the relationship really goes both ways.

 

24 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

thought this ep and these last few eps were showing how much these people mean to each other.

 

9 hours ago, stealinghome said:

Samaritan was filling in the blanks and it had the right idea, but it was off. Root is never, ever going to call Shaw "my beautiful girl" and Shaw is never, ever going to take that one lying down (literally OR figuratively, ha).

Yeah, I think one of the points of the episode was precisely that you don't need to "buy" that Shaw has genuine feelings for Root solely from the 4X11 kiss (although, arguably, there is a lot more at least circumstantial evidence that she cares about Root going back to S3); the simulation was a way to explore Shaw's psyche - being fucked with by Samaritan, sure - but still, to show us how much Team Machine means to her, and Root especially in a more personal way.  As I said in my earlier post, I *was* a bit thrown by Shaw having such overtly emotional interactions with Root, but I'm not sure how much that was because Samaritan didn't always get the "characters" of the simulation quite right. 

I'll chime in to agree that the direction of the episode was great (Chris Fisher) - the flash-y sequences as well as the general feel of offness came across strongly.  Denise Thé, who wrote 4X11, co-wrote this ep, and I think If-Then-Else is the stronger script, but 6741 still worked for me even upon rewatch with the knowledge that it was a simulation.  Maybe we *do* already know that Shaw is a bad-ass, cares about the team, and loves Root, but hey, we haven't seen her in action for a year and a half, so I don't begrudge the show for giving Shaw/Sarah Shahi an episode like this!  (Also, we already know that Reese is tortured by his past, but we still got 5X03 to retread that ground for him last week.) 

Edited May 17, 2016 by wevel

[ppl]

32 minutes ago, aquarian1 said:

I kind of agree.  This was a fun watch, but what did we learn this episode?  Samaritan is using/torturing Shaw to try to get to the machine.  We already knew (or assumed) that, no?  We learned Shaw feels a connection to Root?  Nope, we already knew that, too.  We didn't learn anything else about anyone or anything else.  All the other characters were simulations.  Yeah, we kind of/maybe learned how she sees the other team members, but is that relevant right now?  We have so few episodes left.  Plus it's not like there was any radical realizations there.  We learned she's a "bad-ass" because she has taken this torture 6,741 times w/o cracking.  We already knew she was a bad-ass.

This episode was not about plot progression or about learning new things. It was to bring back Shaw into the fold.

We already know about Reese, Finch and Root in the present but Shaw was a major plot point that has not been satisfactorily resolved yet so to see this episode out early in the season is the correct choice. I am so glad that this was not left to air in the production order of this season because there would have been multiple complaints about the pacing of this season. Now everyone is actively looking forward to her actual return to Team Machine.

[FormerMod-a1]

15 minutes ago, ppl said:

This episode was not about plot progression or about learning new things. It was to bring back Shaw into the fold.

I understand that.  I didn't like it though.  There are other ways they could have done it.  Like I said, it was a fun watch, but that's about it.

[Netfoot]

This episode succinctly filled in all the blanks vis-à-vis what has been happening with Shaw, this last nine months.  And in an entertaining way, too.  So, given that the remaining episode count isn't that huge, I think this was a very clever way of achieving a goal that had to be achieved.

[Sakura12]

Exactly instead of spending multiple episodes on what happened to Shaw, they showed it all in one. Leaving the rest for the actual story progression. 

[Bort]

I really don't consider this so much a reset button episode (which I don't like) as I do a mental mindfuck (which I do like). Shaw is about as closed a book as you can get, so while we had pretty much guessed what her feelings were about certain people, in the end they were just guesses. I liked getting confirmation. 

[snarkylady]

Somehow it pleases me that Bear was included in the simulation...with all the torture they can't take away the comfort that Bear brings. 

[stealinghome]

This makes me way more nervous about Bear's fate, though! It can't be a good sign that Samaritan knows about him. :(((

[Bort]

2 minutes ago, stealinghome said:

This makes me way more nervous about Bear's fate, though! It can't be a good sign that Samaritan knows about him. :(((

Root used Bear to track Greer through the subway at one point, Samaritan definitely knew about the doggie. 

[wevel]

Didn't Greer meet Bear in a S3 episode when Root took him with her?  I assume that's how Samaritan knows about him ...

[Edited to add: kariyaki beat me to it!]

Edited May 17, 2016 by wevel

[shura]

Quote

This makes me way more nervous about Bear's fate, though! It can't be a good sign that Samaritan knows about him. :(((

Nah, Bear is not a threat to Samaritan. Samaritan has no reason to eliminate Bear.

I liked the episode a lot, even though it was pretty obvious that this stuff was not real. I am not sure I understand the comments about how Shaw is bad-ass because she has resisted the torture of these simulations for so long without cracking. Has she really resisted it? It's not like she makes a conscious decision to not give away what Samaritan wants despite her suffering, is it? Does Shaw even know she can stop this if she cracks? Isn't she just reacting to the stimuli according to what she happens to be? If she is, than I don't think it's the same as withstanding torture in order to protect something.

[MrWhyt]

3 hours ago, benteen said:

The critical reviews for this episode have been great.  I wish I could share it but it just didn't grab me.  Always nice though when this show does get recognition.

There was something earlier in the episode that I pegged as off.  Shaw stepping out of the cab without paying the driver.  I can see that happening of course but you don't have the driver yelling at her at all that she didn't pay him.  That was an earlier indication that things just aren't right.

I think Shaw's mind would have completely broken LONG before she reached 6,741 times.  Nobody's will is that strong..

Somebody asked SS about that on twitter and she replied that she did pay the cabbie but it was cut.

[StarBrand]

The thing about the whole Shaw-Root thing is that, for a long time, we've only seen things from Root's POV. We know how she feels. Shaw, however, we've never been sure. Despite planting one on Root in "If-Than-Else" (and even that could have been seen only to distract Root enough to let her get away), Root is seen as being more of an annoyance. The only things I can remember are (1) the look on her face when Finch said they must win the war at all costs-implying Root wouldn't be making it-and (2) her getting upset that Root was going to the Samaritan-Machine meet-up alone, and even that could be considered an "I will not leave a man-(or woman) behind" moment.

So we honestly didn't know anything about what goes through Shaw's mind about Root. Now we have a bit of an answer.  It's worth nothing in Root's presence, Shaw lets her guard down, the best example of that,conversation in the park. She sees Root as accepting her for who she is-even if, in this case, she's losing her mind, and killing her friends. Root is all "I don't care what you did, we'll fix it". Would Shaw say what she said, how she said it, in a real life situation? Maybe. Maybe not. But this is as close of a look into Shaw's psyche as we've gotten so far...

Edited May 17, 2016 by StarBrand

[stealinghome]

Don't forget there was also the time that Shaw and Root swaggered off after Shaw said she didn't leave with the super-hot number because "there were things [she] cared about here" where they were clearly off to an all-night sexathon.

[StarBrand]

Quote

Don't forget there was also the time that Shaw and Root swaggered off after Shaw said she didn't leave with the super-hot number because "there were things [she] cared about here" where they were clearly off to an all-night sexathon.

Yes, she did say there were things she cared about that made her stay-implying that Root was one of them-but sexathon.....I'm not thinking that was happening at that point...

[Cranberry]

Depends which writer you, ask, really. Some of them (like David Slack, according to Amy Acker) will say that Root and Shaw have been having sex since the 10 hours in the CIA safe house (hence the callback in his episode "Honor Among Thieves" and the ambiguous "this could take all night" ending). Some will say that they've never had sex.

I saw someone on Tumblr point out something cool about this episode -- it was like a dream in that the different locations were made up of elements from different places; for example, the gun locker from the subway was in "Root's apartment."

Also, I wince now when I watch Shahi slam Acker onto that table, because I know it broke Acker's tailbone!