S03.E21: Forgiven / S03.E22: Ascension

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

It's the final showdown between S.H.I.E.L.D. and Hive, and the team must spring into action when his master plan is finally revealed... but when the time from Daisy's vision arrives and events begin unfolding like she had foreseen – who will live, and who will die?

Promo:

Edited May 11, 2016 by ElectricBoogaloo

[ottoDbusdriver]

Who will die ?  It's going to be some side character like the metal melting guy that no one really cares about.

And are they really pushing this whole "family" nonsense yet again ?  It was painfully dull last year with Skye/Daisy's family.

[mac123x]

Part 1 is titled "Forgiven" so I assume they'll wrap up any guilt / PTSD for Daisy in the first 40 minutes.

[DeLurker]

8 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

 It was painfully dull last year with Skye/Daisy's family.

Crazy Cal wasn't dull - he was glorious!

Mom was meh to the nth.

[teenj12]

On 5/11/2016 at 10:10 AM, mac123x said:

Part 1 is titled "Forgiven" so I assume they'll wrap up any guilt / PTSD for Daisy in the first 40 minutes.

Yeah, it'll be really hard to see Daisy blame herself for something she had no consent or autonomy over. 

[Raja]

8 hours ago, teenj12 said:

Yeah, it'll be really hard to see Daisy blame herself for something she had no consent or autonomy over. 

We are assuming no control but doing something like giving everyone the Inhuman gift Daisy had been relishing her status as an Inhuman and even before the sway we were talking about her in terms of Magneto in the X-verse being degrees of good and bad compared to regular humanity but always thinking we are superior. Or the murder Malick going with her anytime we take out a Hydra head is a good day philosophy. And the other Inhumans under the sway basically were doing the same things as before like gathering the innocents for Hive just like when they were Hydra in one case and a bent Colombian police officer in the other just under a different leader.

 

They would have time to do it right if the come back to it next season like the movies come back to Tony Stark's and Bucky Barnes' guilt  years apart in film.

[teenj12]

2 hours ago, Raja said:

We are assuming no control but doing something like giving everyone the Inhuman gift Daisy had been relishing her status as an Inhuman and even before the sway we were talking about her in terms of Magneto in the X-verse being degrees of good and bad compared to regular humanity but always thinking we are superior. Or the murder Malick going with her anytime we take out a Hydra head is a good day philosophy. And the other Inhumans under the sway basically were doing the same things as before like gathering the innocents for Hive just like when they were Hydra in one case and a bent Colombian police officer in the other just under a different leader.

 

They would have time to do it right if the come back to it next season like the movies come back to Tony Stark's and Bucky Barnes' guilt  years apart in film.

Well obviously Daisy has been very pro-inhuman this season (and rightfully so. she shouldn't be ashamed of who she is), but the murderous, hellbent on world-takeover of inhumans, betrayal-of-the-team stuff is not who Daisy was or is.

I like the comparison to Bucky Barnes' guilt (and I'm lumping in Jessica Jone's guilt as well). Daisy, Bucky, and Jessica were all forced to commit heinous acts (including murder and attempted murder) against their will via some form of brainwash. But that absolutely does not make them at fault for being victimized. In fact, I think the worst part of Jessica and Daisy's loss of agency is that Hive and Kilgrave's form of mind control still allowed for them to know everything they were doing, but they did not have the freewill to stop themselves . In this way Kilgrave/Hive made them slaves looking from the inside out of their own bodies.

Edited May 13, 2016 by teenj12

[TVSpectator]

6 hours ago, teenj12 said:

Well obviously Daisy has been very pro-inhuman this season (and rightfully so. she shouldn't be ashamed of who she is), but the murderous, hellbent on world-takeover of inhumans, betrayal-of-the-team stuff is not who Daisy was or is.

I like the comparison to Bucky Barnes' guilt (and I'm lumping in Jessica Jone's guilt as well). Daisy, Bucky, and Jessica were all forced to commit heinous acts (including murder and attempted murder) against their will via some form of brainwash. But that absolutely does not make them at fault for being victimized. In fact, I think the worst part of Jessica and Daisy's loss of agency is that Hive and Kilgrave's form of mind control still allowed for them to know everything they were doing, but they did not have the freewill to stop themselves . In this way Kilgrave/Hive made them slaves looking from the inside out of their own bodies.

 

I personally, think that Daisy's mind control was more like a drug. IMO, she probably did have some form of control over her actions, unlike Jessica who was outright ordered to kill ( Killgrave can literally force people to do things that they don't want. That was what made his mind control pretty brutal because he would just outright order people to do  things that would physically hurt them but they ended up doing it to themselves if they weren't stop by someone else and/or his powers just weakened over time and distance) or Bucky who totally forgot who he was before. I don't think that Hive ordered her to tell Fitz that she will break his neck if he tried to stop them and she probably came up with the idea of stealing the Terrigen Crystals, the Kree Orb of Orbness, and also rocked the base all by her own. Yeah, she probably wanted to make Hive happy but I doubt that he really cared what she did to SHIELD, so he was fine with that.  

[teenj12]

17 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

I personally, think that Daisy's mind control was more like a drug. IMO, she probably did have some form of control over her actions, unlike Jessica who was outright ordered to kill ( Killgrave can literally force people to do things that they don't want. That was what made his mind control pretty brutal because he would just outright order people to do  things that would physically hurt them but they ended up doing it to themselves if they weren't stop by someone else and/or his powers just weakened over time and distance) or Bucky who totally forgot who he was before. I don't think that Hive ordered her to tell Fitz that she will break his neck if he tried to stop them and she probably came up with the idea of stealing the Terrigen Crystals, the Kree Orb of Orbness, and also rocked the base all by her own. Yeah, she probably wanted to make Hive happy but I doubt that he really cared what she did to SHIELD, so he was fine with that.  

I don't think you're getting it. Yes, Hive's mind control abilities act similar to a drug (Kilgrave's powers in fact are explicitly stated to be a virus), but what part of that makes a case for Daisy having autonomy? Putting it in your terms, Daisy was given a 'drug' against her will/consent that nonetheless was able to change her motivations and convictions. The Daisy that made those radical choices (nearly murdering Fitz and Mack) wasn't the real Daisy. Its all there in the text. The show has made it very clear that this isn't her fault. Hive's powers gives an illusion of autonomy ('False-autonomy' if you will),  but a person who was put under any form of mind control against their consent that is able to change their normal convictions, has NO autonomy/agency/control in the matter. This shouldn't be hard to understand. 

Edited May 14, 2016 by teenj12

[TVSpectator]

2 hours ago, teenj12 said:

I don't think you're getting it. Yes, Hive's mind control abilities act similar to a drug (Kilgrave's powers in fact are explicitly stated to be a virus), but what part of that makes a case for Daisy having autonomy? Putting it in your terms, Daisy was given a 'drug' against her will/consent that nonetheless was able to change her motivations and convictions. The Daisy that made those radical choices (nearly murdering Fitz and Mack) wasn't the real Daisy. Its all there in the text. The show has made it very clear that this isn't her fault. Hive's powers gives an illusion of autonomy ('False-autonomy' if you will),  but a person who was put under any form of mind control against their consent that is able to change their normal convictions, has NO autonomy/agency/control in the matter. This shouldn't be hard to understand. 

 

Ok, so if a crack head robs a store, should the crack head be held responsible for the action of robbing the store?

Yeah, the circumstances of when she got infected isn't her fault but she literally told Hive/SquidWard everything and did those actions separately from Hive/SquidWard's commands (in the flashback, Hive/SquidWard was literally, "come with me" and Daisy was like, "not yet I need to get something"). Yeah, Hive and her both weren't in the right, but to write off everything is also, IMO, kind of not right either. 

[romantic idiot]

I think that will be the interesting part of the next 2 episodes - it's not quite clear how much autonomy Daisy had. Was it like a Winter Soldier deal where she'd do whatever he asked, but was free to choose how to do it?  Or is it like a crackhead / alcoholic, as you said, where she's desperate for the next fix, but that's the only alteration going on. We'll see. 

[TVSpectator]

1 hour ago, romantic idiot said:

I think that will be the interesting part of the next 2 episodes - it's not quite clear how much autonomy Daisy had. Was it like a Winter Soldier deal where she'd do whatever he asked, but was free to choose how to do it?  Or is it like a crackhead / alcoholic, as you said, where she's desperate for the next fix, but that's the only alteration going on. We'll see. 

 

 

Since Daisy seems to be SHIELD's golden child I doubt that they will even bring up anything about her having free will during her time with Hive/SquidWard and all will be forgiven before mid-way through the episode. Which does kind of sucks because really, that would be a great way to incorporate ideas from CA:CW onto the show. We might get to see Daisy beating herself up about what happen and then everyone just saying, "oh, you were under Hive's control. What you did wasn't your fault."

Edited May 14, 2016 by TVSpectator

[Jack Kerouac]

Given how this show treats Daisy, I'm sure all of the other characters will be down on their knees kissing her ass in no time. I'm sure they will be asking for HER forgiveness by the time the season is over.

[teenj12]

18 hours ago, TVSpectator said:

Ok, so if a crack head robs a store, should the crack head be held responsible for the action of robbing the store?

Yeah, the circumstances of when she got infected isn't her fault but she literally told Hive/SquidWard everything and did those actions separately from Hive/SquidWard's commands (in the flashback, Hive/SquidWard was literally, "come with me" and Daisy was like, "not yet I need to get something"). Yeah, Hive and her both weren't in the right, but to write off everything is also, IMO, kind of not right either. 

Stop, right there in the bolded. You just admitted that the circumstances weren't her fault. If you can admit that Daisy had no consent to what Hive did to her, then how can you make any type of case for freewill? Hive brainwashed Daisy using his powers that act similar to a drug, but that's not to say it's absolutely comparable to a real life drug, or a person willingly taking the drug.

In this way, you're also saying that a person under Kilgrave's influence was acting on freewill. Kilgrave's powers act as a virus, yeah? So a person receiving his 'virus' (including Jessica) is at blame for committing crimes? Obviously you can understand from watching Jessica Jones that such isn't true, but it seems you can't make the same connection for Agents Of Shield, and I'm starting to wonder if a lot of it goes back to Daisy-hate. A person can hate Daisy, but still admit that she had no agency in this. 

[Raja]

35 minutes ago, teenj12 said:

Stop, right there in the bolded. You just admitted that the circumstances weren't her fault. If you can admit that Daisy had no consent to what Hive did to her, then how can you make any type of case for freewill? Hive brainwashed Daisy using his powers that act similar to a drug, but that's not to say it's absolutely comparable to a real life drug, or a person willingly taking the drug.

In this way, you're also saying that a person under Kilgrave's influence was acting on freewill. Kilgrave's powers act as a virus, yeah? So a person receiving his 'virus' (including Jessica) is at blame for committing crimes? Obviously you can understand from watching Jessica Jones that such isn't true, but it seems you can't make the same connection for Agents Of Shield, and I'm starting to wonder if a lot of it goes back to Daisy-hate. A person can hate Daisy, but still admit that she had no agency in this. 

I guess what I am saying that she is doing something she would have liked to do if she were king of the world.The Hive infection acting like a drug taking away inhabitions to kill a Hydra head and make us all superior Inhumans like her. As opposed to Hive saying murder him and her body saying happy to comply when she wasn't

[TVSpectator]

3 hours ago, teenj12 said:

Stop, right there in the bolded. You just admitted that the circumstances weren't her fault. If you can admit that Daisy had no consent to what Hive did to her, then how can you make any type of case for freewill? Hive brainwashed Daisy using his powers that act similar to a drug, but that's not to say it's absolutely comparable to a real life drug, or a person willingly taking the drug.

In this way, you're also saying that a person under Kilgrave's influence was acting on freewill. Kilgrave's powers act as a virus, yeah? So a person receiving his 'virus' (including Jessica) is at blame for committing crimes? Obviously you can understand from watching Jessica Jones that such isn't true, but it seems you can't make the same connection for Agents Of Shield, and I'm starting to wonder if a lot of it goes back to Daisy-hate. A person can hate Daisy, but still admit that she had no agency in this. 

 

 

I really don't think you got the actual idea behind my post, but, YMMV and that is okay. I totally see Daisy's "addiction" in a different light than you, because the way I see it she had the ability to choose what she wanted to do while under Hive's control and the method she was first given Hive's spores I think really doesn't matter, since it seems that all of the Inhumans under his control (at first) didn't freely choose to get spored. 

So, Daisy was able to tell Hive, in his face (or in Ward's dead face) that 1) why they are doing those experiments on the Watchdog humans and maybe they should just stop doing it, 2) telling Hive, in his face again, that she hated Ward and that she no longer is called "Skye" 3) when Hive asked her why she changed her name, I remember her saying something like, "it's a long story for another time" and walking away from. So, it seemed that she had some kind of free will to act in her normal way but also at the same time willing to follow Hive's orders. It's just she had the ability (like the other Inhumans who were controlled by Hive, like that corrupt Colombian cop and Giyera. They both had that ability to freely share opinions that Hive didn't share and said it out loud as well) to follow Hive's orders in her own manner/way. 

Edited May 15, 2016 by TVSpectator

[rab01]

On 5/15/2016 at 9:48 AM, teenj12 said:

... If you can admit that Daisy had no consent to what Hive did to her, then how can you make any type of case for freewill? Hive brainwashed Daisy using his powers that act similar to a drug, but that's not to say it's absolutely comparable to a real life drug, or a person willingly taking the drug.

In this way, you're also saying that a person under Kilgrave's influence was acting on freewill. Kilgrave's powers act as a virus, yeah? .... A person can hate Daisy, but still admit that she had no agency in this. 

I think that there are two separate conversations happening in this thread.  One is about whether Daisy had any free will in her actions and the other is whether she is to blame for her actions. Taking the latter first, I think it's clear that she is not to blame. She was Hived and her brain altered by parasites.  She couldn't have, through sheer force of will, changed what happened to her.  The first question though is different. She was not a zombie and Hive wasn't using her as a puppet.  At times he asked her things and she demurred. It was never over anything important but it showed that she had an independent existence from him and thus some element of free will.

If I were in Daisy's situation rather than a puppet-situation, I would probably feel more doubts about my own thinking and actions afterwards because it probably felt from the inside like she was choosing to do it.  I might feel self-doubting about it while still being righteuosly indignant if anyone tried to blame me afterwards.  (To be clear, the self-doubting part would be about whether I could ever trust my judgment again or whether there was buried somewhere some trace hive-spore that had come out of hiding.)

[SocaShoe]

2 hours ago, rab01 said:

 

If I were in Daisy's situation rather than a puppet-situation, I would probably feel more doubts about my own thinking and actions afterwards because it probably felt from the inside like she was choosing to do it.  I might feel self-doubting about it while still being righteuosly indignant if anyone tried to blame me afterwards.  (To be clear, the self-doubting part would be about whether I could ever trust my judgment again or whether there was buried somewhere some trace hive-spore that had come out of hiding.)

Yes.  And if you've watched Jessica Jones, 

Spoiler

you know that Kilgrave tries to mess with her by pointing out he only said "to take care of" the woman she killed. Not kill her. He does this to make her doubt herself and come back to him. Even though with Kilgrave, it seemed like at the least, he enjoyed micromanaging the people he held under his sway much more. Kilgrave was truly a narcissist - he loved making everything about him and controlling every detail, even making girls say "I will love this." Even when he was supposedly trying to be "good," he often reverted to control because that's what he liked most.  Any kind of free will was inconvenient and often not worth his time.

I have to wonder if that's what makes Hive so powerful is that he doesn't completely take control of people, like Rab01 said. He leaves parts of their personalities intact so that they still feel separate and he probably just ups whatever causes the dopamine to rise when they say or do things that he likes but comes from them individually in addition to occasionally pushing his will on them. Eventually, over the long term, Hive's swayed people probably change their behavior and seemingly, their beliefs, because it seems to make them feel better so it "must" be good. It probably becomes more and more difficult to truly separate from him as time goes on because the very idea of what makes you feel good about anything has changed . And, if you think about it, if you want to create a bunch of soldiers who need to think and react to a battle situation, but have absolute and unchanging loyalty, then this is what you want - someone who can fight without having every move pointed out to them, but still believe deeply enough in the "cause" that they don't ever really rebel because being a part of the Hive's mission makes them feel good. 

[teenj12]

3 hours ago, rab01 said:

I think that there are two separate conversations happening in this thread.  One is about whether Daisy had any free will in her actions and the other is whether she is to blame for her actions. Taking the latter first, I think it's clear that she is not to blame. She was Hived and her brain altered by parasites.  She couldn't have, through sheer force of will, changed what happened to her.  The first question though is different. She was not a zombie and Hive wasn't using her as a puppet.  At times he asked her things and she demurred. It was never over anything important but it showed that she had an independent existence from him and thus some element of free will.

A person under the effects of brainwash does not have free will.

Daisy did not have free will. Neither did Jessica Jones, or Clint Barton, or Bucky Barnes.

These are all people who were compelled against their physical and mental will to do awful things, no matter how much 'faux-autonomy' their forms of mind control gave them.  

[TVSpectator]

You know guys,IMO,  this is the kind of conversation the writers should put in their show. Just because, IMO, this conversation is really good to read and to respond to. 

[kitlee625]

I agree, but my gut says that they're going to move towards the simplest explanation so as not to upset the apple cart.

Edited May 17, 2016 by kitlee625

[Raja]

53 minutes ago, TVSpectator said:

You know guys,IMO,  this is the kind of conversation the writers should put in their show. Just because, IMO, this conversation is really good to read and to respond to. 

One more day to know for sure but a movie gave a few minutes to the Serkovia

Spoiler

government versus self control

debate that I can see it coming up since we left with tears coming down Daisy's face

[SocaShoe]

I think they're going to be more concerned with messing with us on the "fallen agent" question. I predict there will be  one conversation with Papa Phil that will have him missing the point but feeling like he did something, a moment of forgiveness from Mack and maybe two-three lines of reflection spread across the first episodes of next season. But this kind of conversation would be great -- would love to see even Fitz and Simmons debate it.

[paigow]

On 15/05/2016 at 10:26 AM, Raja said:

I guess what I am saying that she is doing something she would have liked to do if she were king of the world.The Hive infection acting like a drug taking away inhabitions to kill a Hydra head and make us all superior Inhumans like her. As opposed to Hive saying murder him and her body saying happy to comply when she wasn't

Avengers 1 - Hawkeye / Barton & Selvig are mind controlled by Loki....Lots of people died because of what they subsequently did. Guilty or Not?

[SocaShoe]

It's hard to say how guilty they were because we were given inconsistent information about their level of participation. In the beginning of the Avengers, Loki is able to get useful information from them  warning of Fury's intentions to blow up the base.  But there was a scene at the end of one of the films when Loki took control of Selvig and it appeared that Loki completely took over Selvig's responses to the Tessaract. And we have this quote from Hawkeye right after Natasha rescues him: 

"You don't understand. Have you ever had someone take your brain and play? Take you out and stuff something else in? You know what it's like to be unmade?"

He tries to ask Natasha how many people he hurt as if he really doesn't remember. Selvig is driven insane by the experience and by the time "The Dark World" rolls around, he's in a mental hospital. So how much are they responsible for? What was the method of control? I need more information. It's important to note that Barton feels responsible and tries to ask how many agents he hurt before Natasha shuts him down. 

The difference between this and Daisy's experience is that we were teased with these moments of Daisy's unhappiness over the Inhumans' treatment - her interrogation and attack of the Watchdogs,her arguments against the vaccine, her arguments with Rosalind, her belief that the inhumans were created for a great purpose...this is what makes us question how she really felt. Did she actually feel like the other Agents pitied her? Maybe. Did she feel left out of SHIELD because of her Inhuman status? Possibly.  I have no doubt it's the happiest she's ever been because of all the dopamine being pumped into her brain. What we're asking is where does Hive begin and Daisy end? And I guess, you could ask the same thing of the Loki mind takeover....

[ottoDbusdriver]

Half-way through the 2 hour finale -- and it's like the writers checked out and let the interns write this thing.

Tremors -- pity party for one.  And the cure is hugs from Mack.

And that super slo-mo of Daisy attacking Hive was just so incredibly bad.

Edited May 18, 2016 by ottoDbusdriver

[kitlee625]

4 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Half-way through the 2 hour finale -- and it's like the writers checked out and let the interns write this thing.

Tremors -- pity party for one.  And the cure is hugs from Mack.

And that super slo-mo of Daisy attacking Hive was just so incredibly bad.

Of course, all the hugs from Daddy Coulson and Big Bro Mack didn't stop Daisy from trying to get her fix the second she was near Hive.

[kitlee625]

Not surprised that Lincoln died, but really pleased to see Dark Daisy and her new Goth look. It actually has me interested to see season 4.

Edited May 18, 2016 by kitlee625

[AimingforYoko]

33 minutes ago, kitlee625 said:

Of course, all the hugs from Daddy Coulson and Big Bro Mack didn't stop Daisy from trying to get her fix the second she was near Hive.

They real nailed addiction. I know a lot of people aren't the biggest Daisy fans, but Chloe Bennet rocked it. 

In other news, I had to spend a few minutes getting the hook out of my mouth. It was obviously going to be Lincoln, but I really thought they were going to kill Daisy.

It appears they're keeping John Hannah. I approve heartily.

[Lantern7]

So Ward is dead for good now, right? Or will he be brought back as an LMD?

I was okay with the finale. Should be interesting to see how dark the show can get in a 10 p.m. slot. Will Daisy's dark makeup be a permanent thing?

Oh, Phil. Channeling Princess Leia. You can't outdork Cisco Ramone, but you look good doing it.

[mac123x]

Yeah, her going back for a fix nailed it pretty well I thought.  And Lincoln seeing that it's exactly why she went after Hive was nice.

 

Shotgun-axe is reality!  I'm happy about that.  The rest of the story was kind of bland and predictable.  I enjoyed Dr. What's-his-name, and it looks like he's going to be in the  next season.  I'm really curious about what it was he had in his cabinet there in the tag -- comic book aficionados, any clue? 

[xqueenfrostine]

Holy shit this finale was exhausting.  I found the knowledge that some mystery person was going to die kind of distracting.  I felt like I spent more time saying goodbye to individual characters in case they were going to be the one to go than actually appreciating the plot of the episode.  

So Lincoln got to be the one that bit it!  Hooray!  Apart from Daisy, he was the character I cared the least about losing.  That said, I think he got a pretty great send off.  He was far more interesting this episode than he's ever been the entire time he's been on the show.  Had he been this strong all season, I might not have been rooting for him to die.

Speaking of characters I've been hoping would die, Chloe Bennet deserves mad props for her work this week.  She's come a long way as an actress since season one.  I may frequently hate her character, but Chloe's clearly able to kill it when the writers give her good material to work with.  I really liked the scene between Daisy and Hive when she first went to him.  Her desperation to rejoin Hive was so raw and real, as was her anger when he was unable to retake control.  

I rolled my eyes at Daisy's new look though.  The old trope of depression/being troubled = more makeup is ridiculous and tired.  Why exactly does leaving SHIELD mean that Daisy would start spending more time on her eye makeup?  I mean, don't get me wrong, she looks great and I'm a makeup junkie in real life so I'm not hating on the idea of her wearing makeup, I just really hate this trope.

Finally so glad May survived the finale!  I know many people were expecting her to be the one that bit it, both because she's a pilot and because some thought her story arc was finished for the show, but the show would have been poorer without Ming-Na.  Not only is May an awesome badass of a character, but May's action scenes are sooooo much better than everyone else's.  The fight choreography of the physical hand to hand combat is much more interesting to watch than the gun fights or fights with the Inhuman characters using their powers.  With Bobbi gone, May's the only one on the show still likely to do that kind of fighting. She would have been hard to replace. 

Edited May 18, 2016 by xqueenfrostine

[TVSpectator]

I am glad May is alive and really with all that hype I thought that they would've just killed off someone that has been on the show since Season 1 (well, they did with Hive being gone and I guess Brent Dalton is on longer on the show. Which kind of sucks since they already killed off Ward and I was hoping that maybe they would kill off another character). I wonder if they are going to do the Machine Teen story or at least a variant of that on the show with the Dr. John Hannah? I wonder if they are going to have him on as a reoccurring character as well, or is his stint here done?

Shotgun-axe is finally here and I was happy that Mack was the one who built himself. 

Overall, I think that this show really played fast and loose with not only the cross (or what I like to call, the Cross of Death) and the SHIELD jacket, but also with putting almost all of the characters in harms way and/or injuring them. 

[maraleia]

I'm just glad that no POC characters died because the backlash would've been epic.

[Jediknight]

Lincoln was the best choice to die.  I was not a fan of the love story, so him being gone doesn't effect me.

I'm glad that Mack and Yo Yo are both still alive, and Yo Yo called Mack handsome.  Now those 2 can get together, get married, and have an awesome kick ass family.  All while the shotgun-ax is hanging above the mantle.  Which Mack more than deserved.

Fitz taking a level in badass was awesome.  He and May got onto the jet, and he killed Mark Dacascos.  Although part of me wishes he would have stuck around, because he was awesome in this role, and we need more May vs Dacascos fights.

I finally liked a scene with Ward, and it involved Lincoln.  I liked them in the jet above Earth.

And Radcliffe sticking around?  Awesome.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Jediknight

[MisterGlass]

They kept me guessing until Lincoln showed up on the Quinjet.  I'm not shocked it was Lincoln, and I'm fine with it.  And the demise of SquidWard.  I'm glad Mack, Elena, Joey, Fitz, and May are all still kicking.

Also liked seeing Daisy overwhelmed by the need to be part of the Hive.  It made sense in the moment.  And her running away for a bit is fine too.  Did Coulson refer to someone else as the director there at the end?

I liked John Hannah's fascination with Coulson's hand - and looks like he and Fitz have cooked up a proper replicant.

Shot-gun axe!

[TVSpectator]

I found Goth Daisy to be kind of funny. Are we to assume that Coulson is now a field agent, May is the new director, Fitz is working for Dr. John Hannah, and that Daisy will be the new villain (although, it looks like she is suppose to be some kind of Inhuman Robin Hood figure)?

[Sandman]

I want Mack and Fitz to have a conversation about their new toys, thusly:

Mack: I invented the shotgun-axe!

Fitz: I killed a murderous wanker with my invisible sidearm! Also: Coulson's bionic arm now comes with a Quinjet Valet Parking upgrade. I win.

[benteen]

I found Daisy's guilt to be misplaced and self-absorbed.  I understand her feeling bad but she had no control over her actions.  Mack is fine and all she killed was one Kree who was there to wipe out Inhumans.

That being said, I really enjoyed this two-parter as it went on and like how it was a zombie siege type of storyline.

Lincoln was the right choice to die because his character never worked on the show.  I will say too, I thought his death scene with Hive was really well done and I agree with the IGN review that it's one of the best scenes that the show has ever done.  Two enemies accepting the inevitable.

Did Coulson say at the end that he had to report to the director?

[xqueenfrostine]

9 minutes ago, mac123x said:

 I enjoyed Dr. What's-his-name, and it looks like he's going to be in the  next season.  I'm really curious about what it was he had in his cabinet there in the tag -- comic book aficionados, any clue? 

Think it was an android body for her robo assistant Aida?  I saw the acronym LMD written in the text on his computer screen which stands for Live Model Decoy in the comics.  LMDs were androids in the comics, and were frequently used to impersonate other characters.

Oh and I concur with everyone who has been showing John Hannah love.  He's been a great character and I'm glad to see that he'll likely be back next season.  

[benteen]

Maybe I forgot something but what happened to Joey?  Why was he completely absent from these two episodes?

Kind of funny how the Secret Warriors was hyped this season and we saw them together for a half-episode.  We won't even being seeing that whole team next year with Lincoln's death.

[kitlee625]

12 minutes ago, xqueenfrostine said:

So Lincoln got to be the one that bit it!  Hooray!  Apart from Daisy, he was the character I cared the least about losing.  That said, I think he got a pretty great send off.  He was far more interesting this episode than he's ever been the entire time he's been on the show.  Had he been this strong all season, I might not have been rooting for him to die.

Speaking of characters I've been hoping would die, Chloe Bennet deserves mad props for her work this week.  She's come a long way as an actress since season one.  I may frequently hate her character, but Chloe's clearly able to kill it when the writers give her good material to work with.  I really liked the scene between Daisy and Hive when she first went to him.  Her desperation to rejoin Hive was so raw and real, as was her anger when he was unable to retake control.  

I rolled my eyes at Daisy's new look though.  The old trope of depression/being troubled = more makeup is ridiculous and tired.  Why exactly does leaving SHIELD mean that Daisy would start spending more time on her eye makeup?  I mean, don't get me wrong, she looks great and I'm a makeup junkie in real life so I'm not hating on the idea of her wearing makeup, I just really hate this trope.

Agree with all of this. I think that Lincoln was a good choice to die, and I did enjoy his stuff. I rolled my eyes though when Daisy was begging Coulson to bring him back (and put the entire planet at risk), just so she could have her boyfriend back.

 

I also liked Daisy as this more desperate, dark, extreme version of her character. The over the top 90s Goth look was a bit much, but I'm interesting to see where this goes. It's interesting that May had that whole speech about how Daisy is an agent because of who she is, not because of her powers, and that Daisy can make a choice to work through her pain and do good, but instead she's on the lam, using her powers to do whatever she wants.

[Gregg247]

One hour of story and action, shoved into a 2 hour season finale.  Yay (?)

It's amazing that, even during his big death scene, Lincoln still proved to be the most boring TV character ever.  Even Hive was ready to check out rather than float around with that wet blanket for much longer.  Was I the only one thinking that Hive and Lincoln were going to hold hands at the end? LOL

No offense to the actor who plays Ward, but I REALLY don't want him back next season in some new incarnation.  He was a good villain; then another good villain; let's move on.  I don't want another Sylar situation from "Heroes" to ruin this show.

I'm glad the crazy doctor will be back next season.  Hopefully, this show will be a little lighter and brighter, and bring back a little bit of fun to its stories.  I'm tired of all the darkness and dread that's been permeating this show for some time now.

[paigow]

Poll:

Who is the new Director of SHIELD?

1. Melinda May
2. Sharon Carter
3. General Talbot
4. Natasha Romanoff
5. Vision
6. Loki - Impersonating any of the above

[Senna]

So happy Mack finally got a proper shotgun-axe!  I literally squeed out loud when it made its appearance.  Also happy he didn't die.  (Also happy May didn't die, and a bit sorry I had that bit of speculation stuck in my brain all episode.)

Of the core cast, Lincoln is probably the one I would miss the least (other than Daisy and Coulson, but I don't expect them to bite it ever); not because I dislike him exactly, but I feel like he wasn't used very well, and his romance with Daisy didn't do much for me either.  He had a good sendoff though, which helps.  (I realized that every single show I watched this season had a "good guy" character die, and I'm pretty sure this was the most well done of them.)

Honestly with the death threat hanging over the episode, I felt a bit distracted.  I did like the interactions between Mack and Elena, Fitz taking out Giyera, Simmons sciencing out the primitives, and pretty much everything with the crazy scientist dude (Radcliffe?), who lightened the mood greatly.  Glad it looks like he's sticking around.  Do we know what happened to Hellfire (or whatever he decided to call himself)?  I wouldn't mind his returning either.

The six months later epilogue gave me a bit of whiplash.  I was thinking Daisy's look was supposed to be a disguise -- the hair was pretty obviously a wig (both by looks, and, unless Daisy gained additional abilities, because hair doesn't grow that fast).  It didn't really inspire much feeling in me, but uh, glad Ward's gone at least?  (And hopefully not recreated in a LMD or whatever.)

ETA:  I *am* disappointed after spending much of the season on this whole "powerful inhuman on another planet inspired deep devotion in HYDRA for centuries" plot that ... we never got to see *how* that happened.  How did Hive gain a cult while on another planet?  What did he do on this one to get exiled?  I don't exactly want him back to tell us, but ... ugh.

ETA2: Per the recap, I guess James/Hellfire is dead?  I must've been really tuned out during that scene, because the only part I remember is Lincoln getting the exploding thingy in his side.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Senna

[blackwing]

I was one of the few Lincoln fans, and I'm sad that he died.  He had cool powers.  I am especially irritated that he died to save Daisy.   The intense focus of this show on Daisy and how the world revolves around her ticks me off to no end.  

So next season is going to be Rogue Daisy and SHIELD tracking her down?  As much as I love Marvel, I am seriously considering dropping this show.  I just can't take any more of the "Beatification of Daisy" crap.

[Sandman]

The episode put everybody under threat -- from one moment to the next my guess about who was going to get ended kept changing.

I loved the "Whaaaa?" face Giyera made when Action!Fitz shot him with his invisible gun. I'm actually glad to see the last of him. Telekinesis is an awesome superpower, and it should never have been wasted on a smug, annoying, murderous wanker.

It looked to me, judging by the shot of Radcliffe's computer screen, that the name ADA was actually an acronym. "Advanced Digital Assistant"? If it's her "birthday," can we assume that ADA will stand for "Adorably Designed Android"?

[xqueenfrostine]

1 minute ago, Sandman said:

It looked to me, judging by the shot of Radcliffe's computer screen, that the name ADA was actually an acronym. "Advanced Digital Assistant"? If it's her "birthday," can we assume that ADA will stand for "Adorably Designed Android"?

I don't know about the new meaning for the acronym, but yes I definitely think the android body is for Ada.  I'm expecting androids to feature prominently in next season's storyline.  If the "LMD" I spotted on Radcliffe's screen was any indication, I wouldn't be surprised to see android imposters of other characters causing trouble next season.

[blackwing]

My closed captioning listed its name as "Aida".

[Sandman]

Just no Life Model Decoy duplicates of Ward, please. Although an LMD version of Talbot might be kind of fun at parties.

I will say that I thought Brett Dalton did an excellent job with the scenes where Hive's memories were scrambled. When Hive was accessing Ward's memories, his face seemed to change more radically than just in expression, I thought. He looked like Ward used to look.

ETA: "AIDA" was definitely spelled out on screen. I never of think spelling "Ada" (an English or Scottish name) with an "i" in the middle -- my thinking is influenced by the Italian roots of the name "Aida," I guess, which has three syllables, rather than two.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Sandman
Oops. It was AIDA the whole time!