S04.E09: The Day After

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, Inquisitionist said:

I'd have to go back and check, but I think Don was revealed to be something of a vinophile when "Patti" first had dinner with Young Hee's family.  I thought that was why Elizabeth chose a bottle of wine (ostensibly as a present for her brother) that was of such quality that Don would certainly want to try it out.

Yes, he was.

I agree that since he normally drinks wine, he may suspect that he was drugged.  It depends on the drug though.  From things he said, and what we've seen so far, his normal wine drinking is with dinner, and he hadn't eaten anything.  The whole Korean background though, along with a level 4 clearance in one of the most secure labs the USA has (from all we've been told anyway) makes me think this whole thing will blow up on the Jennings.  They took a risk, because they were pressured to produce intel on this, even though there was no good way in.  It's time they had a (big!) loss anyway...

22 minutes ago, izabella said:

No, they wouldn't, but we would see it since we spend time at the Rezidentura.  Actually, now that I think about, wasn't there a guy who did exactly that?  He walked into the Rezidentur and wanted to tell them some secrets?  I vaguely recall the Rezidentura people were watching him, via closed circuit camera, sitting in a room by himself and debating what to do.

That is ringing a bell with me too.  Anyone?  Ideologists, or people simply fed up with the USA, OR people who needed/wanted money were the most likely walk-ins though, on either side.  Actually, the ONLY walk ins or volunteer traitors (again, on either side) probably did it for money, or political reasons, perhaps a few to get a loved one out of a bad situation in another country.

[sistermagpie]

13 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

No, they wouldn't, but we would see it since we spend time at the Rezidentura.  Actually, now that I think about, wasn't there a guy who did exactly that?  He walked into the Rezidentur and wanted to tell them some secrets?  I vaguely recall the Rezidentura people were watching him, via closed circuit camera, sitting in a room by himself and debating what to do.

It was in Season 2. The guy was ultimately shot by Stan while shouting "Ronald Reagan doesn't care!" The Russians basically used him as a set-up to make Stan a hero to help the Nina operation. I think she tipped him off that the guy was going to assassinate someone. The guy was not mentally stable and angry at the US. Arkady did talk to him from outside the room. I think the ep was "The Walk In."

[kay1864]

20 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The whole Korean background though, along with a level 4 clearance in one of the most secure labs the USA has (from all we've been told anyway) makes me think this whole thing will blow up on the Jennings. 

This would be a nice twist to watch, since most of the time their exploits go well (if violently).  Only actual debacle that comes to mind is when E was shot.  

[Umbelina]

40 minutes ago, kay1864 said:

This would be a nice twist to watch, since most of the time their exploits go well (if violently).  Only actual debacle that comes to mind is when E was shot.  

Actually, it seems to me that many of their ops go wrong.  A simple hand off of a bioweapon that wasn't even that valuable in the long run turned into a murder on the bus, a simple break in turned into murdering an old woman. 

Which yeah, show nonsense, because embedded illegals wouldn't do either of those things.  The Residentura people would do the hand off, and probably a team that specializes in break ins would be imported from Russia for the second.  That stuff is mostly on the show for action sequences, not real, but good TV.

This show has the Jennings doing a LOT of things they would never, ever do personally, much too valuable to risk.  Now, the whole Young Hee story, and Kim, Hans, suitcase girl, Martha?  That's the kind of thing they would definitely do.  Recruiting others, developing assets, that's their job, and then working those people to possibly hand off to the residentura when possible as well. 

Edited May 13, 2016 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

A simple hand off of a bioweapon that wasn't even that valuable in the long run turned into a murder on the bus,

And three days in quarantine for four valuable agents who were exposed to it!

[Umbelina]

Yeah, as many (former) spies have said, spying is generally boring stuff.  Spending months having dinner with the Mary Kay woman and her family is probably one of the most realistic things this show has done.  Months or years spent developing something that may come to nothing in the end is more of a norm than an exception.  Ditto the Martha story, and other actual assets they've recruited, like suitcase girl and Kimmy.

So, for TV, and for movies, we get action sequences because actually watching real (covert) spying would be incredibly boring.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Umbelina

[Midnight Cheese]

19 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I didn't think he was dismissing them. He admitted that his whole life was about preventing this and that he did think of it, but what else can you really say in response to "Will the world really end this way?" than he hopes so? He also even admitted that he's not sure he's doing anything to prevent it. That's pretty honest!

And now it's even more ironic since he presumably thinks that Paige looking "burdened" is about carrying her parents' secret, like maybe she's becoming more upset at them. He takes himself as a threat out of the equation and it doesn't occur to him to think maybe she's overwhelmed with all the time she's spending at church with homework to do. So even though he's not buying Paige's emotional state (love how Philip turns on the jolly to full blast suburban white guy when he talks to PT) he still assumes church is her escape from her problems. He doesn't even think from a practical standpoint that maybe she wants to be at church but is spreading herself too thin. This is, after all, a guy who sees no problem with a 14-year-old emptying her entire savings into the coffers.

I wonder if we'll find out Pastor Tim was planning something serious for this meeting, like he really thinks her parents need to defect or quit.

Why would it occur to Pastor Tim that he threatens Paige?

He never betrayed her at the got damb cellular level, and IMO her parents did.  They did burden her, they did abuse her trust and strain her soul, they did all of these things!  Further, they did have a choice even when the initial pressure was put on in re the second generation illegal program -- they could've explained why they felt Paige was not ready and continued lying, as they are incredibly sophisticated liars who lied seamlessly until then, and said that the issues between them were marital in nature, and held off until Paige had more years, more development behind her.  He is supposed to suss out that she's at church too much when she's got Philizabeth's knee in her back to spy on them because of her 'choice' -- wow, what a choice, to vent the cruel pressure put on her by Philizabeth - to go to a source of comfort and plead for help?

Am I seriously the only person here who sees massive absurdity, not in a ha-ha French farce way, of insisting that Paige 'created' this situation by going to her pastor?  I'm an agnostic on a good day but to all that is holy, the fault here ain't residing in Paige to me at least!  "She asked for the truth." "Your entire history, identity, and security is a lie, we have abused your trust your entire life, and are affirmatively working against principles and philosophies instilled in you your entire life and celebrated by your not-home nation, every friend you've ever had, and your still-innocent brother for whom you have a new and perverted duty of care to lie to continually.  Welcome to the liar's club, but not in the Mary Karr way."  Hm.

Pastor Tim has his issues and they are significant (we are likethis with the money issue) but the fundamental original sin isn't his, nor Adam, nor Eve's.  The brutality of the Soviet system is writ small into how they treat Paige now that she has partial knowledge of the truth. 

Edited May 13, 2016 by Midnight Cheese
spelling matters dammit!

[kay1864]

28 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Actually, it seems to me that many of their ops go wrong.  A simple hand off of a bioweapon that wasn't even that valuable in the long run turned into a murder on the bus, a simple break in turned into murdering an old woman. 

Agreed, sometimes things go wrong.  But in both those cases it wasn't due to anything E or P did, and the missions weren't actual debacles since they achieved their goals (albeit murderously, and delayed in the case of the bioweapon).

I'm looking forward to something that blows up (figuratively) in their faces, which would be an interesting change of pace.

[AllyB]

Speaking of Kimmy. We know Philip has still been having weekly meetings with her, as that was the job he still had to do while on his 'holiday.' But are we really supposed to believe that for the last 8 months she has been happy to have Jim call around once a week so he can have a pray about his long lost son? 8 months is a really, really long time to a 15-16 year old. And an older guy she had an attraction to, who she's kissed and cuddled and who has seen her in the bath suddenly got Jesus. At first she'd go along with it, glad to be a support for him. But after 8 months of the same, she's got to be over it at this point. He can't realistically have morphed into a 'father figure' due to how their relationship started, no matter how much she craves attention from her father. As far as she knows, their relationship started out as a sexual attraction and at 15-16 she's just beginning to explore her sexuality and attraction can easily turn to weirdness and even leave you a bit creeped at times. An attraction to a cool guy who got her a false ID, good pot and expensive earrings, who she was ready to have sex with, turning into 8 months of weekly prayers would probably leave her feeling a bit skeeved out.

[Knuckles]

Well, sometimes things go very badly wrong...remember the submarine plans they murdered to obtain, and then later found out the US government deliberately baited them with defective plans which caused the Soviet sub to sink with all hands on board? Not a good outcome.

That said, I would love to see Elizabeth and Philip suffer personally for all their murders. I don't care that Philip feels badly for destroying Martha, and I am still angry with Elizabeth first driving that sober woman back to drink and then killing her...the same game plan...first destroy them, then kill them. And her betrayal of Young Hee is especially heinous. They are doing a good job grinding down their own daughter, but it is hardly enough payback. Consider the damage Philip is doing to the offscreen Kimmie. So Henry is just sailing along...be a shame if something were to happen to him. That might remind Philip and Elizabeth what murder feels like to the victim's family.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Midnight Cheese said:

Why would it occur to Pastor Tim that he threatens Paige?

Because he took a very dangerous secret she told him and told his wife and then tried to push her to find out what her parents did because, as he flat-out told her, "they" (Tim and Paige) had a responsibility to do something if her parents were doing wrong. It doesn't matter whether he betrayed her at the cellular level that her parents did. He's a guy who holds her family's situation in his hands and has never pretended that he would never send her parents away if necessary. She and her parents have more similar priorities. I think it would make sense for him to understand himself as a threat. 

But besides that, my point wasn't just that he was a threat but that if Paige felt burdened he might consider she should cut back on out of school activities like church. It would not have been unusual for a person running teen programs to say that.

1 hour ago, Midnight Cheese said:

Am I seriously the only person here who sees massive absurdity, not in a ha-ha French farce way, of insisting that Paige 'created' this situation by going to her pastor? 

If you're denying that the situation was in part created by Paige telling her Pastor then I can't say you're the only person but I definitely disagree. Paige is the victim here since she's not the one who created the dangerous situation but her telling her pastor did help create a situation where her Pastor has the power to have her parents taken away and he could use it. That's just cause and effect. She knows her parents are to blame for creating the situation. She also knows that he (or his wife) could do something that will effect her in ways she greatly fears. Original sin isn't the issue--obviously that doesn't lie with Paige or Pastor Tim. She thought sharing the secret would make her less burdened, but it just added a danger to her life. The only thing they can try to control is Pastor Tim or Alice's reluctance to hurt Paige by splitting up her family, not the myriad of things that might make them want to do it.

49 minutes ago, AllyB said:

An attraction to a cool guy who got her a false ID, good pot and expensive earrings, who she was ready to have sex with, turning into 8 months of weekly prayers would probably leave her feeling a bit skeeved out.

I suspect when we see her we ought to be dealing with this because even Philip knows this is true. That's why he knows he might "have to" have sex with her. He may have laid out something like a timetable, though. For instance, waiting until she comes of age according to law or whatever. And if he's okay with her  being with other people (specifically boys her own age) until then it might be okay. Or it may have morphed into something odder she's comfortable with, who knows? 

36 minutes ago, Knuckles said:

Consider the damage Philip is doing to the offscreen Kimmie.

That's the thing that's always ironic about Philip, though. Often his conscience leads him to be good for his assets until he's bad. Like Martha blossomed with Clark until it fell apart. In Kimmie's case she's not having to do anything for Jim, she's just seeing him and doesn't know he's switching tapes. So what he's probably doing is keeping her away from some skeevy guy who really would want to have sex with her and listening to her problems and making her feel special. I'm not saying this makes him a good guy, but it's always seemed hilarious to me that Philip is probably one of the best thing she could have found in a "Jim." In fact, to relate to AllyB again, a real Jim might have become quickly clingy by now and somebody she dumped! (Of course, she might have dealt with a Jim who was more sinister too.)

36 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

Last week Elizabeth ripped into Paige pretty good when it came to the way Paige was dealing with the Pastor and his wife.  Elizabeth didn't need to treat her daughter so harshly.   Elizabeth clearly has anger issues, and took it out on her daughter.

I think every parent has times when they snap at their kids (or others) more angrily because they're angry at someone else, but I still think it was appropriate to the situation. She didn't insult her or hit her. The situation as she laid it out seemed pretty accurate to me. Because Paige and Elizabeth actually do want the same things here. 

Edited May 13, 2016 by sistermagpie

[J-Man]

I don't know if this is relevant or not, but it seemed to me like Don had little or no Korean accent, while Young Hee's was quite pronounced. Is it possible that Don was born in the US and Young Hee in Korea? Also the fact that he has a more American name (assuming that's his birth name and not an Americanized version of a Korean name) might also indicate that he is native born.

[madam magpie]

Quote

That's the thing that's always ironic about Philip, though. Often his conscience leads him to be good for his assets until he's bad.

 

I don't know about this. Elizabeth is fine (or good, like with Young Hee) for her assets until she's bad too; she's just quicker about it. 

In other news, did we actually see the scene of Elizabeth vomiting into a toilet this week and I missed it, or did it not appear? It was in the preview.

Edited May 13, 2016 by madam magpie

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

I don't know about this. Elizabeth is fine for her assets until she's bad too; she's just quicker about it

Elizabeth is fine for them--Philip is *good* for them. He often genuinely wants to be good for them. I don't think it occurs to Elizabeth to care whether she's being good for them or not. I think Philip, for instance, genuinely wants to be a good influence on Kimmie in ways that Elizabeth didn't care about being a good influence on Lisa. Making his assets happy often seems to be part of the deal for Philip in ways it isn't for Elizabeth. Her eye is always on the goal where his is often split between the goal and the person.

12 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

In other news, did we actually see the scene of Elizabeth vomiting into a toilet this week and I missed it, or did it not appear? It was in the preview.

It was an old clip from the quarantine episode.

[beeble]

I was 14 in 1983 and while I didn't watch The Day After, I remember it as a fairly big event. It wasn't on the level of Roots, which was a phenomenon, but it struck me as a big deal. Kids talked about it the next day but nobody seemed traumatized. Then again, our city was industrial and had been hit really hard by the recession so theoretical freak outs were just that: theoretical. Reality was a little harsher.

Did people really buy the movie "Sophie's Choice" just to keep around for a relaxing video-watching evening? That should have been a clue to Elizabeth that she's not dealing with average people here.

I think we're meant to look at Elizabeth's actions as one that takes a toll on her but I had a hard time being sympathetic. I am tired of her #1 weapon being her foxiness (and #2 being her inexplicable super-human strength). Elizabeth has become unlikeable. She's not just a product of her upbringing. She's cold and nearly amoral. I think she's lost Paige ("Because of YOUR actions, YOU have to live a lie and report on Pastor Tim" - um, no, because of bad parenting, Paige is now under ridiculous stress) and I don't see her carrying any emotional burdens the way Philip does even though we're meant to think she does. I would really like it if this assignment actually blew up in her face. 

[madam magpie]

9 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Elizabeth is fine for them--Philip is *good* for them. He often genuinely wants to be good for them. I don't think it occurs to Elizabeth to care whether she's being good for them or not. I think Philip, for instance, genuinely wants to be a good influence on Kimmie in ways that Elizabeth didn't care about being a good influence on Lisa. Making his assets happy often seems to be part of the deal for Philip in ways it isn't for Elizabeth. Her eye is always on the goal where his is often split between the goal and the person.

I don't get that at all. It's part of his game. That doesn't mean Philip doesn't feel empathy for his marks (I think Elizabeth sometimes does too), but I don't think he's good for them. He plays them, and if they're weak, needy women, he plays the role of the guy who really hears and cares for them. His marks are often gentler, so he's gentler, but it's all part of the spy trickery. Then they crash and burn, or are shoved into suitcases, when he's done. 

Edited May 13, 2016 by madam magpie

[beeble]

26 minutes ago, J-Man said:

I don't know if this is relevant or not, but it seemed to me like Don had little or no Korean accent, while Young Hee's was quite pronounced. Is it possible that Don was born in the US and Young Hee in Korea? Also the fact that he has a more American name (assuming that's his birth name and not an Americanized version of a Korean name) might also indicate that he is native born.

This is an interesting point: I hope the show resolves it. I will say that I teach ESL and people have different ears for accents. Some people can keep a very heavy accent while others drop theirs fairly quickly. There really isn't a standard.  BUT: for Don to have the clearance that he has for the work that he does, he may have to have been born in the US. I'm just guessing here, of course, but I don't know what the Reagan administration's policy was on that.

[JennyMominFL]

10 minutes ago, beeble said:

This is an interesting point: I hope the show resolves it. I will say that I teach ESL and people have different ears for accents. Some people can keep a very heavy accent while others drop theirs fairly quickly. There really isn't a standard.  BUT: for Don to have the clearance that he has for the work that he does, he may have to have been born in the US. I'm just guessing here, of course, but I don't know what the Reagan administration's policy was on that.

 

 

I was in the process of getting a clearance in 1988. I had to be born here. And they wanted info on anyone I had ever known who was not an American.

ETA, They also asked me a lot of weird questions about sex, including if I talked during sex. As an 18 YO I was very uncomfortable. After watching the Americans, I understand why.

Edited May 13, 2016 by JennyMominFL

[sistermagpie]

4 minutes ago, madam magpie said:

I don't get that at all. It's part of his game. That doesn't mean Philip doesn't feel empathy for his marks (I think Elizabeth sometimes does too), but I don't think he's good for them. He plays them, and if they're weak, needy women, he plays the role of the guy who really hears and cares for them. His marks are often gentler, so he's gentler, but it's all part of the spy trickery.

Martha would have been easier to control if he'd undermined her confidence. Instead she got more confident and able to stand up for herself. This is something the showrunners explicitly said was part of their intention in writing Martha, that they wanted to defy expectations and show that this marriage was good for her. 

The whole Young Hee storyline seems based around the fact that Elizabeth doesn't take that kind of personal interest in her sources or deal with them this way. She would have slept with Kimmie, like Kate did with Jared. The only real longterm relationship we've seen her have that I remember is Lisa, and I never saw her seeming to have any personal feelings about Lisa's situation for Lisa's own sake or the sake of her kids. 

This doesn't mean that this isn't all part of Philip's game--both of them treat their sources in a way that's a variation of the way they treat people in general. But that underlines the point. Elizabeth is inspiring for people who genuinely share her cause because she's so passionate about it. Other people don't get much out of her (her kids being an exception--they're a special cause in themselves). Philip's a good listener and cares about your problems. Of course in some ways this makes Philip potentially the scarier of the two because it's so twined together. But that's part of the irony of it. Dealing with Elizabeth's often like getting hit with a two by four from behind. Philip's like a snake with slow-acting but deadly venom.

[Umbelina]

OK, discussing the whole parenting thing, which is, after all, along with the marriage the main difference between this spy tale and others, well along with the whole "they are our enemies!" thing.  There is always a high body count in spy tales.

Just what are Elizabeth and Philip's options here?

Never to have had kids at all?  Well, too late, they did, under orders, when they were still very idealistic, young, and indoctrinated in a way that most of us can't even imagine, from a very young age.  So, that one's out.  So, let's do an imaginary rewind to the moment Paige became suspicious and demanded answers, while, at the very same time, their bosses were pressuring them to begin recruiting her.

They could:

• Continue to lie to their daughter (they did, for a while.)
• Tell Center NO!  (they did, for a while)

Neither was working, what's more, the KGB basically told them "you recruit her or we will have someone else take care of that, one way or another,"  ala the honey trap of their co-worker's kid that caused him to murder his whole family for his new squeeze and the cause!

They did:

• Tell her, and what's more, took her to meet her grandmother, against all orders, to try to give her a sense of family
• Tell her she must not tell anyone about this ever
• Try to explain why they do this and why they think it's the right thing to do
• Basically ignore the KGB about pushing her, although Elizabeth certainly hopes to win her over to her ideology

Paige:

• Ignored her parents and told her secret to a relatively new acquaintance with a blabbermouth wife

They:

• Didn't kill the people Paige told, even though that was the only sane operational thing to do FOR PAIGE
• Told Paige that she must now maintain that relationship and report back or their entire family is screwed

I mean there are always woulda/coulda/shoulda's but honestly, the two biggest errors I see here, given P & E's options are:

• Not scaring Paige silly about the horrible things that would happen if she told anyone EVER
• Killing the Pastor and his wife immediately

What are their real options here, as far as being so-called "good" parents? 

• Letting Paige continue to blab, or the pastor/wife mood be unobserved by Paige and get themselves arrested, and losing their kids to foster care?
• Becoming double agents and endangering their kids even more since either side could use/hurt/kill them?
• Taking the whole family back to Russia?  I'm sure Paige and Henry would just love that!
• Leave for other KGB duty and abandon their kids in the USA?  To foster care or the pastor?

Edited May 13, 2016 by Umbelina

[madam magpie]

29 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Martha would have been easier to control if he'd undermined her confidence. Instead she got more confident and able to stand up for herself. This is something the showrunners explicitly said was part of their intention in writing Martha, that they wanted to defy expectations and show that this marriage was good for her. 

The whole Young Hee storyline seems based around the fact that Elizabeth doesn't take that kind of personal interest in her sources or deal with them this way. She would have slept with Kimmie, like Kate did with Jared. The only real longterm relationship we've seen her have that I remember is Lisa, and I never saw her seeming to have any personal feelings about Lisa's situation for Lisa's own sake or the sake of her kids. 

This doesn't mean that this isn't all part of Philip's game--both of them treat their sources in a way that's a variation of the way they treat people in general. But that underlines the point. Elizabeth is inspiring for people who genuinely share her cause because she's so passionate about it. Other people don't get much out of her (her kids being an exception--they're a special cause in themselves). Philip's a good listener and cares about your problems. Of course in some ways this makes Philip potentially the scarier of the two because it's so twined together. But that's part of the irony of it. Dealing with Elizabeth's often like getting hit with a two by four from behind. Philip's like a snake with slow-acting but deadly venom.

Martha ended up alone and exiled to the USSR. I don't believe at all that the marriage was good for her, regardless of what the writers said. In the moment, maybe the marriage felt good to her or looked good to the audience, but it wasn't actually good for her. It ruined her life, and now she has to rebuild. Heroin has a similar effect.

There's irony in this show, but I don't see it here. I see that Elizabeth and Philip are both good at manipulating people. That's what I'd expect from them. Just because, until their lives are ruined, the manipulated kind of like the relationship or benefit from it in some way is just why the manipulators are successful. Or one reason anyway.

[stagmania]

33 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Martha would have been easier to control if he'd undermined her confidence. Instead she got more confident and able to stand up for herself. This is something the showrunners explicitly said was part of their intention in writing Martha, that they wanted to defy expectations and show that this marriage was good for her. 

The whole Young Hee storyline seems based around the fact that Elizabeth doesn't take that kind of personal interest in her sources or deal with them this way. She would have slept with Kimmie, like Kate did with Jared. The only real longterm relationship we've seen her have that I remember is Lisa, and I never saw her seeming to have any personal feelings about Lisa's situation for Lisa's own sake or the sake of her kids. 

This doesn't mean that this isn't all part of Philip's game--both of them treat their sources in a way that's a variation of the way they treat people in general. But that underlines the point. Elizabeth is inspiring for people who genuinely share her cause because she's so passionate about it. Other people don't get much out of her (her kids being an exception--they're a special cause in themselves). Philip's a good listener and cares about your problems. Of course in some ways this makes Philip potentially the scarier of the two because it's so twined together. But that's part of the irony of it. Dealing with Elizabeth's often like getting hit with a two by four from behind. Philip's like a snake with slow-acting but deadly venom.

I don't think it's fair to say Elizabeth would have easily slept with Kimmie-the whole point of that story is that Kimmie is far younger than their typical marks, and thus makes the usual routine harder to carry out. We've never seen Phillip hesitate to sleep with a mark until then. And I think we did see Elizabeth show concern for Lisa's situation, but with an abusive husband back in the mix there wasn't a whole lot she could do to intervene. She didn't cause Lisa to fall off the wagon and she certainly didn't encourage it. 

Re: Martha, I don't believe it was ever Phillip's intention to bolster her confidence (and make her harder to control), I think it was an unexpected byproduct of their relationship that ultimately made his job more difficult. I certainly don't think he was good for her in the end, even if she had some temporary personal growth over the course of their relationship. That confidence and self-assurance disappeared real quick as soon as she had to contemplate a life without him.

[Midnight Cheese]

umbelina, they told Paige after having the example of the kind of emotional strain the 'truth' - or a truth-lite variant - can put on a teenager and the kind of distortion wrought by immaturity, as Jared's cause became his sexual devotion to and crush on his handler, and not his devotion to his family of origin.  They had every reason to think longer and harder about younger, more vulnerable Paige, and decided not to do so.  They had every reason to think longer, harder and clearer about the kind of burden they were putting on Paige, and decided not to do so.   The idea that they explored all four corners of what it would mean to protect Paige more is, at least to me, absolutely not borne out by the writing or their actions.  Elizabeth immediately warmed to the idea and started working it. 

To me, filaments of the arguments against Pastor Tim are misapplied - not writing of you personally - because it puts a parental duty on a person who is not her parent.  Her parents betrayed her.  Families - responsible families with a recognition of the dignity of each person in it - often decide that grown talk is not for young folks.  They betrayed her by putting an unearned burden on her.  They betrayed her by asking her to carry that weight with respect to Henry.  The immorality and cruelty of that blows my mind.  You don't place your burden on a more vulnerable person if you have any scrap of decency.  You don't build a sense of 'family' by jumping your kid in, via lies, lies, lies and illegal international travel, to meet a grandmother connected to you via DNA and nothing else, and then saying, 'we're good, right?' once you're back at Dulles.

What I appreciate about 'The Americans' and how I perceive it to be written is that the immorality and amorality comes home to roost, always.  (I am waiting for Stan's reckoning.  I suspect it'll be broader than losing Sandra and having to date dingbats like Tori.)  I don't root for this because of some twisted idea about 'karma' or somesuch.  I do because I think in some of the conversation, the fact that Paige was treated with more dishonesty by her own family than either Nadezhda or Mikhail and is critiqued for a 'betrayal' is profoundly disturbing, so it makes a certain degree of sense to me that chickens are flapping and coming to roost at the Jennings' home because of what the Jennings parents did.  The idea that Paige deserves adult-like scrutiny for her 'choice' to try and find a little oxygen in the air by sharing a tragic piece of information with someone who actually does care about the state of her actual soul is just ridiculous to me.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Midnight Cheese

[Umbelina]

@Midnight Cheese

I totally get what you are saying.  That's why I laid it out the way I did.  The KGB told them if they didn't tell her/recruit her the KGB would. 

Full Stop.

Too coincidentally for me, right at that same time, Paige was demanding answers and melting down anyway, although, perhaps not too coincidentally because we've watched her snoop around from nearly the very beginning, so the show established that Paige had questions years before.

Given that you already had the teenagers, and one was Paige, and the KGB was giving you a basic deadline, what were your real options here? 

ETA

If not for the KGB deadline/threat they could have continued to lie to Paige, tell her they were CIA and it was all very secret, or something else less horrifying that would sooth Paige, but that wasn't an option for them.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Umbelina

[Midnight Cheese]

The only option IMO is the best option: you stave off the Center, potentially by making unforced errors with missions to seem less competent and have your child less attractive on some level. You never, and I mean never betray your vulnerable, emotional child and dragnet them into servitude to a cause and secret that is in no way hers, no matter her parentage. 

There's an argument about romantic betrayal, that those not yet caught cannot unburden themselves by telling, admitting, fully baring their crimes to their partners.  Hell, people argue about that all the time: should one share, or carry that stain to the grave?  I think inarguably with this kind of secret, it must remain yours until at minimum kids age to adulthood, and then...who can say.  But that's me at this moment.

[Umbelina]

5 minutes ago, Midnight Cheese said:

The only option IMO is the best option: you stave off the Center, potentially by making unforced errors with missions to seem less competent and have your child less attractive on some level. You never, and I mean never betray your vulnerable, emotional child and dragnet them into servitude to a cause and secret that is in no way hers, no matter her parentage. 

There's an argument about romantic betrayal, that those not yet caught cannot unburden themselves by telling, admitting, fully baring their crimes to their partners.  Hell, people argue about that all the time: should one share, or carry that stain to the grave?  I think inarguably with this kind of secret, it must remain yours until at minimum kids age to adulthood, and then...who can say.  But that's me at this moment.

So, you ignore the KGB threat that if you don't do it, they will?  So if you act like she's incompetent you just lie to the KGB, and expect them to not follow through by throwing a handsome, devoted young KGB officer into Paige's life to assess her, then honey-trap/seduce/blackmail her into becoming an agent?

Because they said they would.

(not arguing with you, I think it's a good question and working out just how they could do this, with scenarios.)

ETA

Also, once a KGB agent did get "in" with the clueless Paige, that agent would also out you for lying about Paige's incompetence.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Umbelina

[madam magpie]

The Center is the KGB...THE KGB! This is no little organization you can "stave off." Philip and Elizabeth are owned by their govt. They can submit or die. Sure, they could try to defect, but the KGB could still come after them. Errors mean you are less valuable to your govt. Elizabeth and Philip being good spies is keeping everyone in the family alive and well. They also believe in what they're doing, Elizabeth especially. In their minds, they're fighting a war to save humanity, and yes, unfortunately sometimes your precious, naive child has to fight too. War sucks.

Edited May 13, 2016 by madam magpie

[Midnight Cheese]

That's what I think umbelina - I think you lie like Philip has lied on occasion.  You apply your supposed amazing skills to tracking your kid, and you let things slip on your missions.  Perceptions of competence aren't an 'outing' scenario IMO. 

Thanks, and I mean this completely sincerely, for teasing this out with me!  It's fun to toss out contrary POVs and not be condescended to by someone erroneously thinking they must know more. 

[jjj]

Of course, Philip and Elizabeth have left out tons of details in their discussions with Paige, so from their side, or the writers' side, they have told her the bare minimum about their work, even when she has directly asked them (twice now?) "have you killed people?".  So many other questions could not even occur to Paige -- "are you married to anyone else on alternate days?"  "how many different kinds of seductions have you carried out?"  "how many people did you force to kill themselves for being in the right place at the wrong time?"  "how many other apartments do you have?" Etc. 

[Umbelina]

29 minutes ago, Midnight Cheese said:

That's what I think umbelina - I think you lie like Philip has lied on occasion.  You apply your supposed amazing skills to tracking your kid, and you let things slip on your missions.  Perceptions of competence aren't an 'outing' scenario IMO. 

Thanks, and I mean this completely sincerely, for teasing this out with me!  It's fun to toss out contrary POVs and not be condescended to by someone erroneously thinking they must know more. 

The other thing is, Paige is much more valuable to the KGB than either Elizabeth or Philip, especially if they found out Elizabeth or Philip lied to them.  They don't need Paige to be loyal, they need her real birth certificate that proves she's American so they can slot her in to job where they need a mole.  They could hold her parent's lives hostage to get her cooperation, or threaten her brother's life.  They could honey trap her (which would probably be the gentlest way.)  They just need her to do as told, they don't really care about her feelings. 

Cuddly Gabe and stern but "loving" Claudia don't run the show, and they've been around long enough that they know damn well they better follow orders.  The second Philip or Elizabeth step out of line Gabe would end them just as he ended his friend in Russia, so would Claudia.  Philip and Elizabeth KNOW this.  The KGB find out they lied?  Their kids will have absolutely no parental protection whatsoever.  Paige would still be working for the KGB, one way, or another.  Philip might be executed and Elizabeth in a Gulag so photos could be sent to Paige to prove she's still alive (along with the gruesome ones of dead Philip) if/when they go the hostage route or the honey trap fails.

Now the KGB would prefer to keep all of them in play, and the family intact, but if it came to a choice? They want Paige and Henry more.

Ditto @Midnight Cheese!  This last part is where I really want to hear a way out, or a better way of doing things for them, because I honestly can't see one, and I do think the kids are better off having a buffer between them and the KGB.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Umbelina

[LisaM]

I really like Young Hee so I was ready to turn off the tv when Elizabeth drugged Don. I was only afraid that she was going to actually kill Young Hee. I hope it doesn't come to that.

[magemaud]

Since we've jumped ahead 7 months in the story line, I wonder if Philip was ever allowed to contact Martha's parents as Gabriel promised? 

[SlovakPrincess]

Oh poor Don.   He really didn't deserve that!   :(

I have a hard time believing Don will compound his shameful mistake (that didn't actually happen, not that he knows this ...)  by betraying his country and bending to blackmail when government secrets are at stake.  It's actually kind of stupid for Elizabeth to assume this will work.  

She really does not understand people with a different moral code ... which is how they ended up in the Pastor Tim mess with Paige.  

Weird that the Jennings invited Stan and son over to watch The Day After.  "Hey, you folks watching that nuclear holocaust movie tonight?  Come on over, we'll order pizza, it'll be so much fun!"

Well, I was hoping for Oleg / Tatiana sex, and boy did the show deliver.  Thanks, show!  Lol.  Interesting that Tatiana subtly mentioned the class divisions that existed in a supposedly communist system.  

[sistermagpie]

13 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

She really does not understand people with a different moral code ... which is how they ended up in the Pastor Tim mess with Paige.  

It can't be that simple, imo--Elizabeth's been tricking people like this for years. If she was that bad at understanding other people it would never work. I've yet to see a commentator about this ep anywhere who thought it made sense that sleeping with this guy would result in his giving up the codes so I have to believe there's something we don't know that she does. Surely the people who work on the show would see all these holes too, right?

Even the Paige/Pastor Tim thing doesn't, imo, show an inability to understand other peoples' moral codes. She told Paige not because she knew Paige wouldn't tell but because she felt she had to tell her. Likewise Paige didn't tell Pastor Tim because her moral code demanded it, but because she needed to release some pressure. So far they've been pretty accurate about Pastor Tim's stand, seeing that the only way they can keep him quiet (without killing him, which they know will hurt Paige) is to point out the ways their moral codes overlap and play up his reluctance to hurt Paige.

[adam807]

If people are screaming and running into shelters in The Day After, what's with that group who gets vaporized mid-wedding? (That scene still haunts me. I've never forgotten the image of the skeletons appearing before the people vanished.)

[scartact]

1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

It can't be that simple, imo--Elizabeth's been tricking people like this for years. If she was that bad at understanding other people it would never work. I've yet to see a commentator about this ep anywhere who thought it made sense that sleeping with this guy would result in his giving up the codes so I have to believe there's something we don't know that she does. Surely the people who work on the show would see all these holes too, right?

I'm surprised everyone is immediately assuming the blackmail route with this Don thing, though I can understand why folks are led into this conclusion. I just think this is another frustration of how obscured this Young Hee operation is. We have no sense of the direction at all, and I just want to know the plot itself so I can anticipate the emotional fallout more, which is what I believe the show's priority more often is. If anything, I feel like there's too much weight on the payoff of the plot at this point in time.

In any case, I think there's an interesting parallel this season may be creating between the emotional investment Elizabeth has to Young Hee and to Philip(/Clark) to Martha, and how Elizabeth will respond to a very emotionally difficult position in contrast to how Philip responded in these last few episodes. But alas, it will be difficult to fully know this until the season is over and we can look back to it in hindsight.

Edited May 15, 2016 by scartact
atrocious semantics

[SlovakPrincess]

I thought Philip said something earlier in the episode to Elizabeth about blackmailing Don.  But I could be wrong.  

 I think this whole set up of Don must be a blackmail attempt, and maybe Elizabeth convinced herself she could make it work after she found the porn.  Maybe she believed or wanted to believe Don is secretly a big sleaze, when in reality he just watched dirty stuff sometimes.  The ... positioning of the porn actors was somewhat similar to Elizabeth having been raped from behind, so maybe that played into it

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Oh poor Don.   He really didn't deserve that!   :(

I have a hard time believing Don will compound his shameful mistake (that didn't actually happen, not that he knows this ...)  by betraying his country and bending to blackmail when government secrets are at stake.  It's actually kind of stupid for Elizabeth to assume this will work.  

She really does not understand people with a different moral code ... which is how they ended up in the Pastor Tim mess with Paige.  

Weird that the Jennings invited Stan and son over to watch The Day After.  "Hey, you folks watching that nuclear holocaust movie tonight?  Come on over, we'll order pizza, it'll be so much fun!"

Well, I was hoping for Oleg / Tatiana sex, and boy did the show deliver.  Thanks, show!  Lol.  Interesting that Tatiana subtly mentioned the class divisions that existed in a supposedly communist system.  

Maybe Tatiana will be the one to defect!  I really don't think Oleg should have told her what his dad did.  This story is suddenly becoming interesting.

14 minutes ago, scartact said:

I'm surprised everyone is immediately assuming the blackmail route with this Don thing, though I can understand why folks are led into this conclusion. I just think this is another frustration of how obscured this Young Hee operation is. We have no sense of the direction at all, and I just want to know the plot itself so I can anticipate the emotional fallout more, which is what I believe the show's priority more often is. If anything, I feel like there's too much weight on the payoff of the plot at this point in time.

In any case, I think there's an interesting parallel this season may be creating between the emotional investment Elizabeth has to Young Hee and to Philip(/Clark) to Martha, and how Elizabeth will respond to a very emotionally difficult position in contrast to how Philip responded in these last few episodes. But alas, it will be difficult to fully know this until the season is over and we can look back to it in hindsight.

Definitely yes to the parallels. 

The one thing that is very good about this Young Hee/Level 4 operation is that I think it's been very realistic to show the amount of time spies have to devote to getting even one source or agent, and even then?  Nothing may come of it.  That's why former spies say mostly they sit around and wait, that it's tedious work and almost never quick.  I still don't see what it could be besides blackmail, but don't think blackmail would have a shot of working so who knows what the plan is?

I do think the whole thing could blow up in Elizabeth or Philip's face though.  Maybe they have Hans doing his check out the area thing, and they get waved off, but chased?  I just think this could be a very close call for them somehow.  I don't think Don would fall for blackmail or really, anything else over the sex.

[sistermagpie]

Yeah, we know that sex plays into whatever it is, and so far it's not consensual sex so it's not a honey pot. Blackmail seems like the most obvious thing--plus her looking around the house made it seem like she was looking for something else to blackmail him with. Still you'd think after so many months with the family she'd have to have some plan that relied on more than the notion that Don would not want his wife to be mad at him. We're talking about top secret clearance here.

It would be like the equivalent if Philip had simply picked Martha up in a bar and then after she had an orgasm rolled over and said, "So hey, now that I've done something for you, how about you plant this bug in your boss's office?"

Instead, even after he'd correctly identified her as someone vulnerable to a honeytrap, approached her first as a DOJ agent who was only interested in non-classified stuff.

[queenanne]

On 5/12/2016 at 10:01 AM, TAG42481 said:

I think we might be done with Don and Young Hee.  The goal of the operation was to figure out if Don had any secrets, and it appears that he didn't.  Once Elizabeth realized that, she needed a way to end the friendship.  She can't just randomly stop hanging out with Young Hee.  So she "has an affair" with Don as the reason that she won't be over at the house again.

From a narrative perspective, I think it will be less important that they didn't find anything out about Don, but more important that Elizabeth had the arc of having a "friend" which she's now lost.  At least Philip has Stan as a "friend."  Elizabeth has now had the taste of having a friend and has now lost that.  It will weigh on her that much more.

 

On 5/12/2016 at 1:26 PM, sistermagpie said:

This is what gives me optimism for this arc. It seems like they've usually made a point of creating a psychology for their sources that at least attempts to explain why they do what they do. Even Pastor Tim is set up to be the guy who doesn't tell on the Jennings. So whoever Don is he has to be written to do whatever he's going to do for some specific reason. Nobody could just assume that the guy would start handing over dangerous secrets because he doesn't want his wife to find out he got drunk and slept with her friend that as far as he knows he didn't even want to sleep with.

Yeah, I agree with those who say, Poor Don is the endgame because of Poor Don.  I think Elizabeth has to run a blackmail scheme.  I think if she wanted simply to be shut of the relationship, she’d say she’s moving out of town/to treat an ill family member, or similar - frankly, at one point standing by the payphone, I thought that's what Patty was going to launch into as an explanation to Don.  (I also point out that, although clearly not into "Patty" in particular, the participants in Don's porn video were all blonde and white, so.  Subtle, guys.  I guess that's the point where we're supposed to have mental room and leeway to think that Don could think he's banged Patty, because fetishistically he might have wanted to.)

On 5/12/2016 at 3:54 PM, sugarbaker design said:

Right, I was 18 when TDA aired, and while I don't remember anyone being traumatized by it (or at least admitting to being traumatized by it), I definitely remember people snarking on it.

My recollective perception at - I think that was 12 - was that it was talked-about, but also the discussion contained a healthy dollop of "as a story working on its own devices this one isn't very good, and was clearly primarily designed as scare-tactic propaganda, so I didn't bother with it".

[kokapetl]

Maybe Alice's pregnancy takes a borderline implausible turn for the worst. 

Or Paige commits to ensnaring Tim with an inappropriate encounter with him, which will of course be photographed. 

[millennium]

On 5/12/2016 at 10:10 AM, sistermagpie said:

Well, it was a song from the time.

I shouldn't, but I always feel affronted when the current generation identifies songs of my youth by latter day secondary sources, for example on youtube, when you read the comments under "I Ran" like "This is the song is from Grand Theft Auto, man!" or "Thank the Regular Show for this song!" under "Ballroom Blitz."

As you correctly acknowledged,."Major Tom" was a song from the 80s -- one of the great songs of the new wave/post-modern era of music. 

That said, if pressed to give a television association for "Major Tom," I wouldn't go with Deutschland 83 but rather this, the most rockingest cover ever of "Major Tom," from Breaking Bad:

While Peter Schilling may have been singing "Earth below us" during the episode, I don't know about anybody else but my eyes were fixed on the moon. 

Edited May 15, 2016 by millennium

[Clanstarling]

5 hours ago, millennium said:

I shouldn't, but I always feel affronted when the current generation identifies songs of my youth by latter day secondary sources, for example on youtube, when you read the comments under "I Ran" like "This is the song is from Grand Theft Auto, man!" or "Thank the Regular Show for this song!" under "Ballroom Blitz."

As you correctly acknowledged,."Major Tom" was a song from the 80s -- one of the great songs of the new wave/post-modern era of music. 

That said, if pressed to give a television association for "Major Tom," I wouldn't go with Deutschland 83 but rather this, the most rockingest cover ever of "Major Tom," from Breaking Bad:

 

While Peter Schilling may have been singing "Earth below us" during the episode, I don't know about anybody else but my eyes were fixed on the moon. 

Oh me too. Lately, thanks to YouTube, I've been humbled by finding out that many of what I thought were the primary sources back in our day were actually secondary, tertiary, or worse. Even so - it still bugs, at least at first.

[jww]

Many conservative/Republicans  groups protested The Day After and even tried to start boycotts against the sponsors.  They claimed the show was nuclear freeze propaganda and was an attack on Reagan's nuclear build-up.

[millennium]

I remember watching The Day After, seeing Jason Robards get microwaved and thinking, "That's what you get for not letting Addie have a Christmas tree.   Karma, baby."

[maczero]

On 5/12/2016 at 11:32 PM, sistermagpie said:

When Paige said she'd rather go quick I remembered how my friends and I were all pleased that we were in a "fireball" zone where we'd be destroyed immediately. So I wanted to remind Paige she was too, being so close to DC.

I remember watching some show on surviving a nuclear missile strike.  It didn't make it seem like the quick death zone was that large.  IIRC, people within a one mile radius of the impact would be incinerated.  People up to 3 miles out would be killed or at least injured by the shockwave.  More than three miles away, and you'd be affected by fallout but still surviveable if you got out of the area fast enough.

On 5/12/2016 at 11:46 PM, Umbelina said:

Tatiana and Oleg had vastly different upbringings, and I'm pretty sure she's going to rat him, AND his daddy out.

What did Oleg's dad do?

On 5/12/2016 at 10:01 AM, TAG42481 said:

I think we might be done with Don and Young Hee.  The goal of the operation was to figure out if Don had any secrets, and it appears that he didn't.  Once Elizabeth realized that, she needed a way to end the friendship.  She can't just randomly stop hanging out with Young Hee.  So she "has an affair" with Don as the reason that she won't be over at the house again.

I disagree with this but a couple of other people already posted a similar response to the one I would've made so I'm not going to repeat it.

Not too much else to say that hasn't already been said but I'm surprised more people weren't turned off by Oleg's sex scene.  I'll take a Clark & Martha romp any day of the week over seeing Oleg's "O" face and hearing his grunts.

[Umbelina]

Quote

What did Oleg's dad do?

He told her that his dad told him about the officer that didn't fire back when he thought the USA had sent nuclear bombs to destroy the USSR, which Oleg told her during their pillow talk.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Soviet_nuclear_false_alarm_incident
 

Quote

 

Petrov underwent intense questioning by his superiors about his actions. Initially, he was praised for his decision.[6] General Yury Votintsev, then commander of the Soviet Air Defense's Missile Defense Units, who was the first to hear Petrov's report of the incident (and the first to reveal it to the public in the 1990s), states that Petrov's "correct actions" were "duly noted."[6] Petrov himself states he was initially praised by Votintsev and was promised a reward,[6][9] but recalls that he was also reprimanded for improper filing of paperwork with the pretext he had not described the incident in the military diary.[9][10]

Oleg Kalugin, a former KGB chief of foreign counter-intelligence who knew Soviet chairman Andropov well, says that Andropov's distrust of American leaders was profound. It is conceivable that if Petrov had declared the satellite warnings valid, such an erroneous report could have provoked the Soviet leadership into becoming bellicose. Kalugin says, "The danger was in the Soviet leadership thinking, 'The Americans may attack, so we better attack first.'"[11]

 

ETA, now that was a good thing actually, but his superiors may not feel that way.  Yuri Andropov in charge then. 

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petrov
 

Quote

 

Petrov underwent intense questioning by his superiors about his judgment. Initially, he was praised for his decision.[2] General Yury Votintsev, then commander of the Soviet Air Defense's Missile Defense Units, who was the first to hear Petrov's report of the incident (and the first to reveal it to the public in the 1990s), states that Petrov's "correct actions" were "duly noted."[2] Petrov himself states he was initially praised by Votintsev and promised a reward,[2][9] but recalls that he was also reprimanded for improper filing of paperwork under the pretext that he had not described the incident in the war diary.[9][10]

He received no reward. According to Petrov, this was because the incident and other bugs found in the missile detection system embarrassed his superiors and the influential scientists who were responsible for it, so that if he had been officially rewarded, they would have had to be punished.[2][5][9][10] He was reassigned to a less sensitive post,[10] took early retirement (although he emphasizes that he was not "forced out" of the army, as it is sometimes claimed by Western sources),[9] and suffered a nervous breakdown.[10]

 

ETA

I was completely wrong, edited.  duh

Edited May 15, 2016 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

He didn't fire back when he thought the USA had sent nuclear bombs to destroy the USSR.

That wasn't Oleg's dad. That was Stanislav Petrov, totally unrelated to Oleg's father. His dad just knew about it because he has connections and the world at large (or even in the USSR) didn't immediately know about the incident. I've been trying to remember when we found about it but can't.

[Umbelina]

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

That wasn't Oleg's dad. That was Stanislav Petrov, totally unrelated to Oleg's father. His dad just knew about it because he has connections and the world at large (or even in the USSR) didn't immediately know about the incident. I've been trying to remember when we found about it but can't.

I know who it was in real life, but I must have really screw up my watching of that scene, because I thought Oleg said it about his dad to Tatiana?  Dang!  So what WAS he saying about his dad to her?

[sistermagpie]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

I know who it was in real life, but I must have really screw up my watching of that scene, because I thought Oleg said it about his dad to Tatiana?  Dang!  So what WAS he saying about his dad to her?

I think he was just saying that his dad told him about it? But I'd have to watch again to be sure. His dad's the Minister of Railways so I think they've established he wouldn't be in that position on the show too. His dad seems to get him a lot of info about Soviet screw-ups!