S05.E20: Firebird

[Bishop]

I realize that I left out a critical part of the TL Tackle by CS in that I only spoke about what Emma risked in leaving her heart and going to save Killian.  He, too, told her to go for her heart and not to save him or try to help him.  His sacrifice was for her to ignore what was happening to him and to save herself.  I am quite pleased that they have a unique take on the magic of true love and not simply waiting for their TLK that many a OUAT character have already experienced or expressed.  I also like the fact that the outcome was delayed.  The audience, like CS, thought it didn't bloody work, and rather than just have a kiss, they literally had to SHOW their love for each other and demonstrate that each was wiling to die to save the other.  Again, I don't see Emma ripping her heart out of her chest and placing it on a scale to prove her love for Regina - which is essentially what had to happen here nor do I think that Emma would have traveled to the Underworld to save Regina (or anyone else) just because.  Emma had to carry her heart into the unknown and for it to be used as a means of weighing her love for Hook.  However, I don't believe that it meant that ONLY Emma's love for Killian would be weighed but also how much she was loved by him.  The way I took that entire scene was that their actions of true love were being witnessed where both were willing to die or sacrifice for the other and with no hesitation in that moment. jmho.  I think that's more powerful.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Bishop

[elle]

13 hours ago, InsertWordHere said:

I don't really get the Box thing either, although I did like that Pan pronounced it PANdora's Box. 

As anyone who went to middle school* should know, but may not remember, the name PANdora means "a gift of PAN".   I would not be surprised to find out that Rumple will need Pan to rescue Belle from the convenient gift used to get her back to the real world.  (*loved that reference in the recap!)

Was there something said about those lost in the river of souls could be rescued or am I just making up things like the writers?

I am curious how the episode title "Firebird" fits in with the story.  The Firebird is from Slavic mythology.

[jhlipton]

1 hour ago, legaleagle53 said:

Just a note about the recap:  Hades is NOT a demigod.  A demigod is the offspring of a full-blooded god and a mortal.  A half-mortal, half-god, in other words.  Hercules is a demigod, Hades is not.  As the son of Cronus and Rhea, Hades is a full-blooded god.

If we're talking true Greek mythology, then Hades is a full god.  Here, he may have the genealogy of a full god, but certainly doesn't act like it.

[Curio]

15 minutes ago, Bishop said:

He, too, told her to go for her heart and not to save him or try to help him. His sacrifice was for her to ignore what was happening to him and to save herself.

Just to play Devil's...er...Hades's advocate, the situation you described is pretty much what went down during the Season 4 finale when Emma saved Regina from the black goop cloud. Regina told Emma to not save her, but Emma risked her life and took on the darkness anyways. I think that's why some fans are upset with the "True Love" test they gave Emma and Hook in this episode because Emma has shown that she'd probably tackle any person who was engulfed in the flames. Heck, she'd probably even tackle Zelena at this point. Yes, the doors opened which means that they apparently are True Love™, but after seasons of waiting for confirmation, I think a lot of people were expecting something a lot more epic.

[apgold]

Between Pandora's box and the references to Orpheus and Eurydice, I thought I was watching "Sleepy Hollow" and expected Crane to show up searching for Abby.  Then I got depressed thinking about that show's ending this season.

I don't think that's the last we've seen of Hook, no exit interviews with COD so still hope that he'll return.

I liked that we got  the backstory on Emma's jacket, although the red one she tries on in the shop in Boston is not the same one she currently wears.

I imagine that Zelena will learn of Hades' deception and join Regina in fighting him.  

I'm not going to speculate on the mystery death next week.

[Writing Wrongs]

I'm confused about the red jacket. She has one with a collar and one without.  Are they supposed to be the same one?

Edited May 2, 2016 by Writing Wrongs

[Randomosity]

1 hour ago, elle said:

I am curious how the episode title "Firebird" fits in with the story.  The Firebird is from Slavic mythology.

 

I was wondering/hoping it would be referring to a phoenix, dying in flames but rising from the ashes? Hook coming back to life eventually? Wishful thinking?

[daxx]

8 minutes ago, Writing Wrongs said:

I'm confused about the red jacket. The one in the first season and in this flashback had a collar. The one she's been wearing doesn't. Are they supposed to be the same one? https://cdn1.thehunt.com/app/public/system/zine_images/4118896/original/9f15ef9252da9afb445261164cbca57d.jpg

http://assets.wornon.tv/uploads/2012/03/s01e01emmas-red-leather-jacket-500x573.jpg

Jmo asked for a different jacket after season one. She didn't like the cut/style of the first one.

[MDKNIGHT]

Did Hook get a proper funeral?  Because I thought he didn't and thought that was what we were seeing in the previews although it could be somebody else. 

I didn't hate the episode although I wish they hadn't messed up the mythology of the after-life so badly.  We all know LIFE isn't fair,  but that is why so many religions posit an AFTERLIFE that IS.  There is no rhyme or reason to this afterlife where Aunty Em is going to suffer the same eternal torment as Peter Pan -the guy who made Rumple look relatively benign.  You can shove people into eternal torment.  If you are Hitler you can avoid paying your dues by running the local Waffle House for eternity and nobody would stop you.  For pities' sake the Blind Witch ATE CHILDREN.  How the heck does she get to avoid the fiery maw of hell?  

The part I DID hate about this episode is the poor bounty huntress.  She does a nice turn for con Emma and she gets death as a thank you.  First of all as a medical person I found the way the wound happened and how it killed her hard to believe.  It would have taken a lot to ram that shard into her abdominal aorta which is the only way I could buy her bleeding out that quick but if it did I don't think she could have run even a few steps.  If it didn't then I honestly think the police could have gotten her to an ER with a decent chance of survival.  I've seen people with 5 bullets in them still awake and talking on their way to surgery.  Which leads to my complaint that if the scenario were real and somebody is bleeding you wouldn't know it was going to kill her that quick and the decent thing would have been to call out to the police, give the person a chance at survival.  They had a convo and why exactly would the woman choose death over a trespassing charge?  Yes so Emma would have added trespassing to her charges..big whoop.  If I were in danger of death I'd have to be insane not to call out to the police for help even if it meant the Pope himself would have to go to jail for trespassing.  Seriously WTF?

I don't think we are done with Hook.  OTOH I have no faith in these writers to not fix the Auntie Em/Milah/Gaston mess.  It has just hit me that the writers seem to write like they are from medieval times or something, where the "little people" don't matter, only the royals.  Milah, Auntie Em, the billions of people Regina killed are nobodies so unfairness to them is swept under the rug and forgotten and they expect US to have forgotten them too.

[RadioGirl27]

The more I think about the "True Love" scene, the more I hate it. It was terrible written (when you need one of your characters to explain what have just happened, you are doing something wrong. The Zades kiss or the Dorothy/Ruby kiss didn't need an explanation).  I'm not even sure it was a TL confirmation, it was terribly ambiguous, and I'm pretty sure that was the writers intention. That way, every corner of the fandom is happy. 

And, really, I don't want a TLK, that lost its meaning long time ago. But I think Hook and Emma deserve something better, more epic, something that means something good for them (this "test" not only didn't change their situation, it made it worse as they lost the little faith they had left).

Edited May 2, 2016 by RadioGirl27

[AudienceofOne]

I just thought it was redundant. Considering the people we're asked to accept have "true love", of course Hook and Emma do. And I thought we knew they did. And I thought we knew that they knew they did. So, for me, it would have been better if Emma tripped up to the scales, whacked her heart on and said "Oh good, true love. That's one thing I know I can pass". Maybe a little less cocky than that because it is Emma. But I failed to see why we needed that scene at all.

[tri4335]

So I've decided to take David's advice to Emma about life being made up of moments and apply it to watching this show. Each episode is made up of moments some good some bad but all moments that don't necessarily connect to each other or to previous moments in other episodes but moments just the same.

Regina and Zelina bonding - good moment

Robin not being able to protect his daughter from his rapist followed up by heart being ripped out - bad, bad moments

Zades' kiss - bad moment - I'm suppose to buy TLK when one person is playing the other....

Emma bonding with Cleo - ...wait a minute really Emma was off knocking off convenience stores well after getting out of jail...focus - good acting believable connection - good moment

Cleo dying - bad moment making Emma feel responsible for yet another person and wasn't needed to move the story along

Emma and Hook proving their love - (is it me or does this give the same vibe as Angel getting a soul for Darla...didn't Jane work on that show) semi good moment but again agree with the comments that A & E want their cake and to eat it too.

Cruella and Blind Witch - Great moment and I would so watch a spin-off of Underbrooke with these two calling the shots

Stealthy - good moment leaving me wanting more to figure out what Bashful did

Emma and Hook goodbye scenes - Great moments as JMO and CO sell it with the angst. Loved the tears and the hands etc.

Rumple and Belle - amusing moment because really Rumple can just keep her in his pocket until he "needs" his wife and then she's all taking care of when he doesn't.

Rumple and Pan  - Great moment though I'm sad to know that Robbie most likely won't be back but this scene was awesome.

David and Emma - great Daddy/Daughter moment where I felt he supported him

Emma and Jacket - again with the timeline issues but focus JMO really sold it in that scene

[Shanna Marie]

That weird "I'll just share my heart" plan makes less and less sense because the situations don't compare at all. David died because his heart was ripped out and crushed, and then he was saved with the shared heart about 30 seconds later. The heart was put into his actual body that was without a heart at that time. Emma has been dealing with Hook's soul. His body is up in Storybrooke, rotting away. I'd thought that the plan was to put a heart into his Underworld soul body and then allow that body to be corporeal in the world of the living, but now Hades is saying that it won't work because Hook has been dead too long and it only worked with David because his soul hadn't yet left his body. But Emma's not dealing with Hook's body. She's dealing with his soul, which, duh, has left his body because it's in the Underworld. Though I guess there's the possibility that Hades lied.

I'm still not seeing the reason Hades was torturing Hook before the gang arrived. That doesn't seem to fit into any scheme for plot purposes, and it was before the rest of the group started bringing hope. It seems like it was done by the writers for shock value rather than by the character for any real reason.

It's starting to feel like Hook and Emma are in a different show in a different universe, written by different people, than everyone else in the cast:

Everyone else: Heroes get happy endings, do the right thing and have hope and everything will work out okay!
Emma: Sacrifice yourself to save everyone else, and your boyfriend gets mortally wounded and ends up dying, and after you go to the Underworld to save him, you fail and have to leave him behind.

Everyone else: Villain redemption is easy! You just have one epiphany and change, and everyone just accepts that. No apologies necessary.
Hook: Redemption is hard. Even after you make all kinds of sacrifices and put yourself on the line to help the others, they remain suspicious of you. You need to confess and repent of your past sins and do what you can to atone. You might finally be considered hero material when you die saving everyone else, but people will still bring up your villainous past at every opportunity.

Everyone else: Romance is easy! You just meet the right person, and it's love.
Emma and Hook: Romance is a slow, difficult process as you navigate your way from allies to friends to lovers (which may or may not yet be in a physical sense). Both of you have to get over your own issues caused by your personal baggage and deal with each other's pasts. You have to keep putting your relationship aside to deal with the greater good.

Everyone else: You can have a magically powerful True Love's Kiss with someone you barely know. One conversation (it may even be a one-sided conversation), and you're set.
Emma and Hook: Yeah, you may have been friends who fell in love and have a solid foundation for your relationship, and you may have made countless sacrifices for each other, but that's no guarantee of True Love, which is incredibly rare and powerful, not something just anyone can achieve. You have to be tested yet again to prove that you really do love each other, even after one of you has literally died (twice) for the other and the other journeyed into the Underworld to save the other. That may not be enough for True Love.
 

[AudienceofOne]

Hook and Emma are in Season 1. The rest are in Season 5. It's why we love them and hope everyone else died a fiery death.

[adam807]

5 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

Just a note about the recap:  Hades is NOT a demigod.  A demigod is the offspring of a full-blooded god and a mortal.  A half-mortal, half-god, in other words.  Hercules is a demigod, Hades is not.  As the son of Cronus and Rhea, Hades is a full-blooded god.

Ah! Thank you for this. I thought he'd referred to himself as a demigod in an earlier episode (correcting someone else who referred to him as a demon), and while I wouldn't put it past the show to get it wrong, you are of course correct about the actual mythology. 

[Mathius]

I'm not sure how unpopular it is, but I am personally glad that Pan got his definitive exit from the show in this episode.  I love him and I love Robbie Kay, but there is no way either flashbacks with him or returning him from death to the present-day story was going to work given how much Robbie is aging.  In this arc alone he's suddenly as tall as Rumple, which wasn't the case before.  I think for Pan, quality > quantity. 

And let's be honest, they would've ruined him if he stayed on longer.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Mathius

[Worsel]

4 hours ago, jhlipton said:

If we're talking true Greek mythology, then Hades is a full god.  Here, he may have the genealogy of a full god, but certainly doesn't act like it.

Actually many of the gods were petty and frequently acted like spoiled children.  I would say Star Trek (TOS - Who Mourns for Adonais) godlike aliens acted more akin to the Greek myths than other films/TV shows I have seen.  Although, when I read myths about Hades he always seemed more adult than the others...

[RulerofallIsurvey]

So, just watched the ep.  Have NOT read the comments.  Wanted to get a few things out before I did.  

• So wow.  Did NOT see Rumple taking Robin's heart.  REALLY did not see Rumple returning it.  And filling the balloon with water from the River of Lost Souls (or whatever it's called) and shoving that into Pan.  So how did Rumple fill the water balloon without getting his hands wet too?
• Wait.  So Zelena and Hades got a True Love's Kiss, even though he was totally LYING to her about helping her sister and friends leave?  Cause, yeah, Nothing says True Love like starting out your relationship on a lie.  
• And then when Emma and Hook kiss before she comes up in the elevator - no True Love's magic blast then?  Even though her heart had been weighed and found to be full of love or something like that.  
• And if that was the test to get to the Ambrosia tree (who knew it grew on trees?) how did Hades get in there again?
• I just can't even talk about Hook right now.  Sniff.  I just can't even. 
• Why did Rumple need to put Belle in Pandora's box?  She wasn't dead and had her heart.  He couldn't just carry her body through the portal?
• What was the point of the flashback?  That Emma had to learn to  let go?  As others on this forum pointed out previously, Emma already learned to do that when she stabbed Killian with the sword.  Or maybe Emma had to learn to take off her armour now?  And how does that get Hook out of the underworld?
• I guess that answers the question about Killian's body.  So why oh why didn't Emma or Regina preserve it before they left?
• Henry just left the pages to be found.  Yeah, that's going to work because that's what Cruella totally wants, right?  People to move on just like Hades did.  Geez kid.  

Okay.  Off to read the comments now, cause everything I just said/asked about has probably already been asked and answered.  :)

[Mathius]

42 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

And then when Emma and Hook kiss before she comes up in the elevator - no True Love's magic blast then?  Even though her heart had been weighed and found to be full of love or something like that.  

The TL blast only happens when a curse is being broken, which was not the case here.

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And if that was the test to get to the Ambrosia tree (who knew it grew on trees?) how did Hades get in there again?

He fire-teleported there. He claimed he couldn't do so before but that was a lie to set Emma and Hook up. 

Quote

Why did Rumple need to put Belle in Pandora's box?  She wasn't dead and had her heart.  He couldn't just carry her body through the portal?

 

Ummm....it's more convenient to carry her in a box?  Yeah, I got nothing.

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Henry just left the pages to be found.  Yeah, that's going to work because that's what Cruella totally wants, right?  People to move on just like Hades did. 

Henry is so stupid.  Cruella is gonna go back there to check on her captives and discover they aren't there, and then she's going to find that book first. There is very little chance anyone else is going to see those pages.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

23 hours ago, Mockingbird said:

Yes, Killian. True love is totally rare and special. Like when Zelena's TLK restarted Hades' heart seven minutes earlier. Or when Red's TLK saved Dorothy after they knew each other for a few hours. 

I know this is sarcasm.  I really can recognize it when I read it.  :)  But this just makes me so sad...

23 hours ago, Worsel said:

I liked seeing the dwarf (named Stealthy?) and am intensely interested in his unfinished business with Bashful.  I think we deserve to see a flashback about this. 

I remember laughing when Stealthy got killed trying to be stealthy in Season 1.  Does that make me a bad person?  Anyone want to TLK me now?

[Camera One]

Was anyone else impressed with Henry's sudden efficiency?  He managed to write out the unfinished business of every frickin' person in the Underworld, complete with illustrations, in the span of an elevator ride.  Why wasn't he writing out Hades' every move so they could check he wasn't betraying them?  Or the real story of the ambrosia tree?

Edited May 3, 2016 by Camera One

[AmandaPanda]

20 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Yes! Why does Rumple need to trap Belle in Pandora's Box just to take her to Sb? He couldn't just carry her?

Realistically, there's no reason that he needs to put Belle in Pandora's Box rather than just carry her. However, Emilie was probably super pregnant or had just given birth, so they needed to find a way to write her off for a while. Hence the box. That's what I decided, anyway. 

[Camera One]

Maybe people in sleeping curses can't cross portals?  Didn't Peter Pan imply having Pandora's Box was useful?

[ParadoxLost]

Did Henry leave the Underbrooke OUAT book down there or the Storybrooke version?  Or does every book have OUAT inscribed on it?

[Tiger]

Since Regina is now a complete fucking moron, I guess she's officially a hero.

Seriouely, she told Robin to hand his daughter over to a dog-napper! I'll be legit pissed if Zelena doesnt pay for that shit.  Oh and the rape thing; she needs to pay for that too.

[Camera One]

When Cruella accused Henry of not writing her back to life, I was wondering... why didn't Hades kidnap Henry and force him to write his heart beating again?  

[YaddaYadda]

40 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Does that make me a bad person?  Anyone want to TLK me now?

I'm sure Zelena would, she can change bad people in case you missed that ;)

Quote

When Cruella accused Henry of not writing her back to life, I was wondering... why didn't Hades kidnap Henry and force him to write his heart beating again?  

He didn't even try to write Hook back to life either. He didn't even suggest it. I also get why he didn't. 

As a card carrying member, and founder of the "I hate Henry Club", I actually got a little bit choked up by Jared's acting when Henry asked about Hook when Emma came back on her own.

Edited May 3, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[kili]

Can somebody explain this to me:

1) Rumple takes Robin's heart. He does this because Pan or his Shadow might be watching. Okay.

2) Rumple stuffs Robin's heart back in his body. Why doesn't he fear that Pan/Shadow might not still be watching him? When?

3) Rumple goes to the river and gets some water into a wineskin. Again, why did he think Pan/Shadow might not see?

4) Rumple sticks the wineskin in Pan's chest? How does it kill him? Did Rumple magically poke a hole in it?

5) When Auntie Em drank some river water, she turned into a puddle on the floor that needed to be wiped up. Why did Pan just turn into a poof of smoke? 

6) Did I just watch one Stiltskin kill another Stiltskin with a wineskin?

[babyPhat279]

Leaving the pages there didn't bother me. There wasn't a lot of time to think of anything else, so it's worth a shot, right? And now that the main characters got away, perhaps Cruella and the Blind Witch won't even go looking in there for anything. They aren't exactly a brain trust, though neither is anyone else on this show.

[Jul 68]

17 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

I imagine for the latter it was tears of anger.

Actually,  I'm among the rare few who loved the BSG finale. What set me off was the realization that it was over. Truly over. I would never again have adventures with these friends. It was similar to the realization that I only saw the Eagles in concert once and will never be able to again.

[Dianthus]

As Mathius said upthread, the TLK is basically just another plot device now, and it sucks, but there you are. The flame swirling around Cora in Sisters didn't seem to be hurting her (IIRC). Fire is supposed to be cleansing, in some traditions. That didn't seem to be the case for Hook. That was to make him suffer for the test. I am spoiled, so I'll not say anything more, except 'Oh ye of little faith.' The season ain't over yet folks.

[Bishop]

7 hours ago, Curio said:

Just to play Devil's...er...Hades's advocate, the situation you described is pretty much what went down during the Season 4 finale when Emma saved Regina from the black goop cloud. Regina told Emma to not save her, but Emma risked her life and took on the darkness anyways. I think that's why some fans are upset with the "True Love" test they gave Emma and Hook in this episode because Emma has shown that she'd probably tackle any person who was engulfed in the flames. Heck, she'd probably even tackle Zelena at this point. Yes, the doors opened which means that they apparently are True Love™, 

I don't agree that it's the same.  With Regina, it had much more to do, imo, with the fact that Emma had every faith and confidence in Hook and her parents being able to get her back.  She said exactly that when she took on the darkness that she knew they could get her back.  In many ways, there is an arrogance to the citizens of OUAT that magic can be used to defeat everything.  With Killian and Emma, it wasn't JUST the TL tackle, imo, that demonstrated their love for each other.  He was determined to take on anyone to bring her back from the Darkness and never gave up on her.  She turned him into a Dark One to keep him with her, and then he gave his life to save her and those she loved.  Afterwards, she went into the Underworld (and would have gone alone) to get Hook back; she was going to share her heart with him; she traveled with Gold into Hades realm to save him; and then again, she was willing to go with him into an unknown part of the Underworld to risk ONE last time to try and get him back.  This wasn't a one-time thing with them in the Underworld.  During that time, Hook also didn't want Emma sacrificing herself or putting her family in danger for him.  I think the entire season and especially this last half has been a demonstration of their love for each other, and it is SO much more important than a sincle TLK.  I mean, frankly, it would be kind of a letdown for me at this point.  They've had plenty of great love scenes already.

Quote

but after seasons of waiting for confirmation, I think a lot of people were expecting something a lot more epic.

I guess I just don't understand how a TLK is more epic than an ENTIRE season devoted to their love for each other which has been shown with both of them risking and sacrificing for the other over the course of an entire season.  That's epic to me, and I don't see how a TLK trumps all of that.  At this point, it's too easy to use.  I'll take an entire season over just one kiss.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Bishop

[ParadoxLost]

Another thing that doesn't add up.  Hook was too ripe to come back to life with Emma's heart because he'd been dead too long.  But Pan still believed a heart could bring him back to life.  So its either the pain to the owner that was the issue (Hook cares about Emma and Pan cares for no one) or it was another Hades lie.

[MDKNIGHT]

Quote

I'm still not seeing the reason Hades was torturing Hook before the gang arrived. That doesn't seem to fit into any scheme for plot purposes, and it was before the rest of the group started bringing hope. It seems like it was done by the writers for shock value rather than by the character for any real reason.

With these writers it probably was just for shock value BUT I think one in-universe reason he would torture Hook is jealousy.  Hook is handsome and more importantly loved by a beautiful woman.  At the time Hades is stuck in the underworld because basically nobody loves him.  He's working on a plan to get out but we have to believe that he's been down there for thousands of years and bitter as "hell".  So he tortured the pretty boy who has what he wants.  Especially since Hook is loved enough to move several grown people to wander down there to save him.  Hades couldn't motivate his own mother to cross the street for him. 

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, AmandaPanda said:

Realistically, there's no reason that he needs to put Belle in Pandora's Box rather than just carry her. However, Emilie was probably super pregnant or had just given birth, so they needed to find a way to write her off for a while. Hence the box. That's what I decided, anyway. 

Very likely. Easier than getting doubles. lol

17 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Another thing that doesn't add up.  Hook was too ripe to come back to life with Emma's heart because he'd been dead too long.  But Pan still believed a heart could bring him back to life.  

Maybe it's becasue Pan didn't leave a body behind (ugh...). Or Pan just didn't know the plan wouldn't work. Rumple only shoved a balloon up his chest.

[Mathius]

The show never addressed it, which it should have, but I'm pretty sure Hook was being tortured for breaking the rules of the Underworld.  His blood opened a portal and let the Dark Ones out, and the rules were that that exact number of souls had to come back.  But thanks to his interference, only one soul - his own - came back, while all the souls he set free got turned into antimatter and absorbed into Rumple. 

Edited May 3, 2016 by Mathius

[3dog]

 I don't understand the title Firebird, like at all. The only fire was when Hook gets engulfed during the love test. He did sort of put his arms out like wings during that scene if I'm remembering it right. Sooo....Emma letting him go gave him freedom and wings to fly? I hope I'm just babbling because that's stupid.

Aaaand I'm back to not getting it. "Killian Me Softly" would have made more sense.

[Curio]

2 hours ago, AmandaPanda said:

Realistically, there's no reason that he needs to put Belle in Pandora's Box rather than just carry her. However, Emilie was probably super pregnant or had just given birth, so they needed to find a way to write her off for a while. Hence the box. That's what I decided, anyway. 

My in-show reason is that Rumple realized he was too weak to carry Belle a few miles across town to the cemetery, and since he's too prideful to ask the Heroes for help, he went with Pandora's box instead.

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"I'm still waiting to hear how you're going to stop us from leaving, Fuzzy. Because all your magic can do is make a dog roll over and beg."

Come on, Jane Espenson. This line was just begging for Cruella to snap back with a "good thing I'm dealing with a bitch" comeback. You served it up to yourself on a silver platter.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Curio

[MDKNIGHT]

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Henry is so stupid.  Cruella is gonna go back there to check on her captives and discover they aren't there, and then she's going to find that book first. There is very little chance anyone else is going to see those pages.

There is president that the book moves around for the greater good.  Snow found it to give to Henry and then they found it again when something I don't remember meant they needed it again.  It is possible that fate destiny or whatever will prevent Cruella from just finding and burning it.  I'm OK with that. 

 

Mathius -Good point about why Hook was being tortured although it could be what I said too.  Maybe if you break the rules you give Hades more of a reason to screw with you.  But he seems to be pretty much allowed to do whatever he wants in the underworld.  It is kind of why I still think the writers messed up the afterlife.  There should be consistent rules.

[ParadoxLost]

It was a little too obscure for me because it took me a day to put it together.  But I think Rumple put Belle in Pandora's box because she is his hope.  Hades saw Belle as the source of hope in Underbrooke that needed to be crushed.  They were just trying to be clever with mythology.

[Camera One]

This is what Peter Pan said to Rumple about Pandora's box:

"There's something in it for you, too.  Pandora's Box.  You can keep her safe in here in exchange for a heart.  Otherwise, you both might lose out and miss that portal home."

Why would they "lose out and miss the portal" without that box?  That line doesn't explain anything.

Did Emilie pre-film all her scenes?  Since she has been in most of the episodes since her exit.  She still has to come in and lie there, which isn't much of a maternity leave.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Camera One

[Watt]

I wonder if the TLK was somehow... Faked? Who knows.

I cried at Hook and Emma, no shame, and not just because I'm pregnant but because these two are the only thing I even watch this show for anymore. 

Except I would watch the hell out of  Cruella and Blind Witch spinoff.  I miss Emma Caulfield.

[KAOS Agent]

5 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Did Emilie pre-film all her scenes?  Since she has been in most of the episodes since her exit.  She still has to come in and lie there, which isn't much of a maternity leave.

I think she must have. She was at home in LA by mid-February. She didn't even return to Vancouver for the 100th episode party. I assume it was because she wasn't supposed to fly during her final month of pregnancy. 

I will laugh so hard if Pan screwed Rumpel over with that box. Like Belle's stuck in there until Pan himself opens it and since Rumpel broke their deal, he's now screwed too.

[Bishop]

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I'm still not seeing the reason Hades was torturing Hook before the gang arrived. That doesn't seem to fit into any scheme for plot purposes, 

I believe it was because Hook was so defiant of Hades.  It was explained in an earlier scene that Hades resented how Hook disobeyed him, and the later on when he helped souls escape, but the big factor was that he wanted to strip Hook of any hope.  I think the bigger question for me was why Hades didn't get more upset when Hook escaped and then acted like it was okay considering how hard he tried to keep him locked up and all the heroes were there to rescue him.

[kili]

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The show never addressed it, which it should have, but I'm pretty sure Hook was being tortured for breaking the rules of the Underworld.

Might he also have been punished for thwarting Zelena? If Hades really does love Zelena, he may have been angry with Hook for helping defeat her time travel attempt (he was just being thrown around like a rag doll, but he was there trying to work against her). Hook was also the one who broke free and messed up her attempt to take charge in Camelot. He seems to know everything. Sure, he was part of a group both times, but he is the first of that group to end up in Hades realm, so he may have bore the brunt of the punishment.

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My in-show reason is that Rumple realized he was too weak to carry Belle a few miles across town to the cemetery, and since he's too prideful to ask the Heroes for help, he went with Pandora's box instead.

He was easily able to levitate Milah and Gaston. Why couldn't he just levitate her to the town line? The dude almost missed the portal with all that messing around. I don't even understand why he was stalling with Pan. Was he afraid Pan would get out of the river if he poofed him too early?

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I will laugh so hard if Pan screwed Rumpel over with that box. Like Belle's stuck in there until Pan himself opens it and since Rumpel broke their deal, he's now screwed too.

I would like that very much. I love it when those two jerks screw each other over especially when it results in them hoisting themselves on their own petards. Pan might very well be clever enough to do that. I loved him complaining about Rumple rudely leaving him. Dude, you can poof out anytime. Robbie Kay is perfection in the role.

[Curio]

7 minutes ago, kili said:

He was easily able to levitate Milah and Gaston. Why couldn't he just levitate her to the town line? The dude almost missed the portal with all that messing around. 

Or just poofing in a cloud of smoke... Yeah. There literally was no reason to introduce Pandora's Box.

[Camera One]

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The dude almost missed the portal with all that messing around.

 

Speaking of "missing the portal", was anyone else screaming at Emma with her long-winded speech right in front of the portal?

Why did Regina and Emma opt for a brisk run to the cemetery rather than poofing.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, 3dog said:

 I don't understand the title Firebird, like at all. The only fire was when Hook gets engulfed during the love test. He did sort of put his arms out like wings during that scene if I'm remembering it right. Sooo....Emma letting him go gave him freedom and wings to fly?

They showed part of the slavic tale about the Firebird in the storybook pages in 5.15. Maybe the title is because the Nevengers left Underbrooke and Henry completed Operation Firebird? But they didn't manage to rescue Hook. So... I donno...

1 hour ago, KAOS Agent said:

I will laugh so hard if Pan screwed Rumpel over with that box. Like Belle's stuck in there until Pan himself opens it and since Rumpel broke their deal, he's now screwed too.

This would be awesome!!

Edited May 3, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

I had forgotten "Operation Firebird" by this episode.  The pacing with this show is on point.

[InsertWordHere]

2 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

I will laugh so hard if Pan screwed Rumpel over with that box. Like Belle's stuck in there until Pan himself opens it and since Rumpel broke their deal, he's now screwed too.

In the Box's original appearance (or rather the real world Box's original appearance), Rumple went through the trouble of having Ariel swim to Storybrooke to get the Box. Then, Pan thought up his own fake Box because that's how Neverland worked, and playing a game of "Follow the Lady," switched the Boxes with Rumple. When Rumple went to Box Pan with the fake Box, Pan turned the tables and Boxed Rumple instead. It's a little like what Rumple did with Robin's heart and the wineskin, so maybe Pan bringing up the Box is what gave him the idea. 

It would be so, so awesome if Pan tricked Rumple so it was somehow a double game of Follow the Lady and the Lady is Belle.