S07.E07: Man Of The House

[ReadMeLattice]

15 minutes ago, blubld43 said:

All these guys on both iterations of Teen Mom show their lack of education every time they speak.  The women too.  Is this lack of higher education, too much time on social media, combination of both?  It drives me crazy every time I hear one of them butcher the language and they ALL do it, maybe excepting Kail and family.

Lack of education. Social media doesn't make you dumber, it's just a place where you can display how stupid you are. I also assume none of them read at all, not even the news or a HuffPost article, much less actual books. 

I would assume only Kailyn and, to a lesser extent, Chelsea, ever read to their children, take them to the library, etc. Kailyn is the only one with any higher education (beyond vocational school like beauty school, which is different, or Jenelle's fake medical program) so at least they value that, supposedly. Can you imagine Corey or Leah checking out a book for themselves about muscular dystrophy instead of just idly Googling it? Or Jeremy or Corey reading for pleasure? Or Jenelle and David curling up with Kai and reading him a picture book? Or Jenelle researching topics she's interested in? Or Leah even reading some chick lit for fun? I can't. It's actually a really comical image. 

Edited April 30, 2016 by Lm2162

[ghoulina]

Acording to Leah's IG she is currently reading a ton of self help books.

[shelley1234]

Kail also is about to or just graduated from school....so I imagine that meant she read a book or two here or there.  

[ghoulina]

16 hours ago, MissMel said:

Is Dave the guy Barbara referred to as Jenelle's "worst boyfriend ever"? Or am I getting boyfriends mixed up?

Yes, I believe she did say that. I'm curious if this is just Barb being dramatic or if we're going to see something worse than the crap those other douchebags have pulled over the years.

[ReadMeLattice]

39 minutes ago, shelley1005 said:

Kail also is about to or just graduated from school....so I imagine that meant she read a book or two here or there.  

Yeah, I mentioned her specifically as probably the only one who does (maybe Chelsea?). Isaac seems more advanced than the other kids, too. For all her many flaws, Kailyn definitely seems a tad brighter than the rest. I believe she made the Dean's List regularly at DSU, and she seems to be able to string words together to create a coherent sentence, unlike the rest of them.

I think Leah gets sponsored by some sort of self-help Instagram thing. She always reposts their stuff (instead of random quotes) and definitely seems to make $ from it. 

Edited April 30, 2016 by Lm2162

[blubld43]

Quote

I would assume only Kailyn and, to a lesser extent, Chelsea, ever read to their children, take them to the library, etc. Kailyn is the only one with any higher education

I truly applaud Kail for getting herself an education; she is the only woman on either of the TM shows that seems to be aware of a future without MTV.  Well, of course Farrah is planning her adult entertainment career....

[leighroda]

5 hours ago, blubld43 said:

I agree with the puppy and the mop, not Charlie though.

Guaranteed, and all the neighbors too.  Those people probably all watched in horror as Jenelle moved in this guy.

True about Charlie, I was just trying to think fast about a shady celebrity and that's what popped into my head... And my puppy is currently in time out for pulling a bag of brown sugar off the counter and spreading it all over the kitchen/dining room (she's a dachshund, so she is deceptively tall when she stands to reach counter tops) so I guess it's the mop for the win.

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, Lm2162 said:

Yeah, I mentioned her specifically as probably the only one who does (maybe Chelsea?). Isaac seems more advanced than the other kids, too. For all her many flaws, Kailyn definitely seems a tad brighter than the rest. I believe she made the Dean's List regularly at DSU, and she seems to be able to string words together to create a coherent sentence, unlike the rest of them.

 

I do believe Kailyn has a higher iq and more "drive" per se than the other TM ladies. She wants to "better herself", unfortunately that also extends to some issues regarding materialism and appearances, but she knows that an education, investments (i.e. a home) are key to a financially secure life for her and her boys. Of all of the girls I know Chelsea (thanks to listening to her parents) and Kailyn will be "alright" meaning, roof over their heads, no problems with the law/addiction etc. 

 

You know I was thinking, I wonder if there are SibShops in WV (programs for children who's siblings have disabilities), I belong to a group for adult siblings of the disabled (SibNet) founded by the same individual. I want so badly to get Gracie in a SibShop. She is going to have issues with co-dependance, caregiving, jealousy etc if she continues down this road. Unfortunately I don't see Cory pursuing such a thing or acknowledging that it may be helpful for Gracie (she might not be interested but it couldn't hurt to expose her to it) as they cannot seem to get Ali's wheelchair fixed in a timely fashion.  

[ReadMeLattice]

Corey would likely act like that was silly. If he and Leah can't even get the wheelchair fixed for their daughter whose head repeatedly smacks on the ground, I highly doubt that they want to find emotional/mental health resources for Gracie as the sibling of a disabled child or for Ali in learning about her disability, etc. There are so many books and groups and classes and workshops and they'll never use any of them. They'll just go to cheerleading and try to get them boyfriends and Ali will keep falling and they will both deny, deny, deny. 

[truelovekiss]

8 minutes ago, Lm2162 said:

Corey would likely act like that was silly. If he and Leah can't even get the wheelchair fixed for their daughter whose head repeatedly smacks on the ground, I highly doubt that they want to find emotional/mental health resources for Gracie as the sibling of a disabled child or for Ali in learning about her disability, etc. There are so many books and groups and classes and workshops and they'll never use any of them. They'll just go to cheerleading and try to get them boyfriends and Ali will keep falling and they will both deny, deny, deny. 

Just going to use the bolded quote to bring up how many of the "adults" on this show like to tease the kids about boyfriends/girlfriends, and how immature it makes them seem. I get that it's a joke (not one I like, but parents of all ages and backgrounds do it) but given their age/maturity level already, them teasing 6 year olds about "dating" just makes me think that in 10 years, a lot of these parents are going to be the Amy Poehler "cool mom" from mean girls. I  can definitely see Leah and Gracie acting more like 16 year old sisters than a mother and daughter. 

[Snarky McSnarky]

3 hours ago, ghoulina said:

Acording to Leah's IG she is currently reading a ton of self help books.

Let's hope they don't include Pride Over Pity, Conquering Chaos, Never Too Late, and Bulletproof.

[CofCinci]

Those are the self-help books currently available at Target.

[lezlers]

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2016 at 9:04 AM, Lemons said:

Jenelle and Nathan are not the only choices.  If Child Services gets involved for whatever reason, they will not choose Nathan because he is better than Jenelle.  The baby would go into foster care or with a relative.  Nathan needs to work on his current situation before he can be considered for sole custody.   

I disagree with this.   I've seen plenty of people on active felony probation that have sole custody of their kids via CPS taking those kids from the other parent.  So long as CPS finds the child is not in danger, they will always place said child with an immediate parent over a distant relative or a foster home.  Also, Nathan has a stable residence, he's in school and is employed.  As far as I know, he's no longer even on probation (not that it would matter in this case.)  I know you're a fan of Adam, but the situations are totally different, as another poster pointed out upthread.  Nathan is the better option of the two parents in Kaiser's situation.  In Aubree's situation, that choice is Chelsea, hands down.  Everything is relative.  If Adam were to go for full custody, he'd be laughed out of the courthouse.  Nathan, however, actually has a decent shot given his competition. 

I'm surprised there isn't more outrage at Leah blatantly lying about not being in a relationship to focus on her kids.  My jaw was on the floor during that entire scene.  How that woman she was talking to managed to keep a straight face while Leah just blatantly lied is beyond me. I wonder if the camera person was rolling his/her eyes behind the lense...

Edited May 1, 2016 by lezlers

[blubld43]

Quote

Everything is relative.  If Adam were to go for full custody, he'd be laughed out of the courthouse.  Nathan, however, actually has a decent shot given his competition. 

Poor Kai.  I've said on here that I hope Nathan gets custody, that's ONLY because Jenelle has no feelings for him.  But I do remember on a previous season that Jenelle and Nathan had a car chase, because Jenelle tried to "pin" Kaiser on Nathan during what was supposed to be his gym time.  So Kaiser's options are both pretty damn poor, with Nathan being the lesser of two evils.  

I'd be laughing for sure if Adam went for full custody.  I imagine Chelsea would be too, after she got over her incredulity and anger.  I actually don't think Adumb has ever mentioned wanting that though.

[ReadMeLattice]

1 hour ago, lezlers said:

I disagree with this.   I've seen plenty of people on active felony probation that have sole custody of their kids via CPS taking those kids from the other parent.  So long as CPS finds the child is not in danger, they will always place said child with an immediate parent over a distant relative or a foster home.  Also, Nathan has a stable residence, he's in school and is employed.  As far as I know, he's no longer even on probation (not that it would matter in this case.)  I know you're a fan of Adam, but the situations are totally different, as another poster pointed out upthread.  Nathan is the better option of the two parents in Kaiser's situation.  In Aubree's situation, that choice is Chelsea, hands down.  Everything is relative.  If Adam were to go for full custody, he'd be laughed out of the courthouse.  Nathan, however, actually has a decent shot given his competition. 

I'm surprised there isn't more outrage at Leah blatantly lying about not being in a relationship to focus on her kids.  My jaw was on the floor during that entire scene.  How that woman she was talking to managed to keep a straight face while Leah just blatantly lied is beyond me. I wonder if the camera person was rolling his/her eyes behind the lense...

Nathan is in school and employed?! If that's true, that's news to me. Where did you find that out?

[HeySandyStrange]

Nathan mentioned earlier this season the classes he was taking while talking to his girlfriend Vanessa. I don't remember hearing anything about him being recently employed but I thought it was mentioned he was getting disability for something military related. So financially he is probably doing fine.

[ReadMeLattice]

My husband gets disability benefits-- they aren't ever much. Nathan is unemployed as far as I know. If he is in school, good (although I don't know how that would make him look better than Jenelle, since technically she does have some kind of a degree and a lot more money), but if so, please get the boy some basic English classes. Please. 

[blubld43]

33 minutes ago, Lm2162 said:

if so, please get the boy some basic English classes. Please. 

Honestly.  Get ALL these people an education of some sort, they all sound like idiots when they speak.  Crimes against the English language, lol.

Edited May 1, 2016 by blubld43

[shelley1234]

Nathan gets disability and also veteran's benefits.  That's more than just the standard run of the mill disability.  I also think he's working at his gym part time, but maybe I made that up since he and Adam are often the same person in my brain.  

He talks about classes in school a lot.

In reality, none of those things really matter when it comes to custody....or at least that is what they say.  It is who can provide the most secure, safe and consistent home.  I'd say that it would be Nathan.  That's sad for Kaiser.  For the other train wrecks, at least they have someone who can stand up for them...even Jace.  

[Lemons]

3 hours ago, lezlers said:

, Nathan has a stable residence, he's in school and is employed.  As far as I know, he's no longer even on probation (not that it would matter in this case.)  I know you're a fan of Adam, but the situations are totally different, as another poster pointed out upthread.  Nathan is the better option of the two parents in Kaiser's situation.  In Aubree's situation, that choice is Chelsea, hands down.  Everything is relative.  If Adam were to go for full custody, he'd be laughed out of the courthouse.  Nathan, however, actually has a decent shot given his competition. 

 

I'm not a "fan" of any of them.  It's just that a court isn't going to make decisions on a father's custody based on making a fuss over a newborn baby on TV like Nathan did.  Or the editing showing Adam looking at his phone and not playing games.  Nathan has a recent domestic violence conviction and 2 DUI's.  Those are serious issues.  Do you remember the horrible abuse that Nathan piled on Jenelle and Barbara?  Just because it was Jenelle doesn't make it right. 

Nathan hasn't done enough to prove he has changed.  Also, I doubt Adam wants full custody.  I think Adam gets his legal terms mixed up and says things that aren't accurate.  Adam has supervised visitation because of his seriously terrible driving record and making bad decisions.  How is Nathan any different?  Also, how about Nathan and Jenelle speeding down the road both trying to unload the baby?  Just because Jenelle is a terrible mother doesn't suddenly make Nathan qualified. 

Adam has said that he is improving and has stayed out of trouble for about a year, has a home and a job.  Adam has a long way to go, but he made a start.  Nathan needs to do the same thing.  And I hope he does.

[ReadMeLattice]

He doesn't work at the gym, he just goes there a lot (remember the episode where he was angry he had to take care of Kaiser during "gym time?"). Adam is actually a certified trainer. 

And the benefits don't really matter in terms of money as Jenelle has a lot more. Regardless, it's not based on those things. Neither of them have employment besides TM2 and both of them have violent charges. Nathan has 3 DUIs, not 2, and a conviction for resisting arrest, disobeying an officer, driving with a suspended license, and something crazy like going the wrong way down a freeway. Both of them have other children but no custody. I'd hate to be the judge deciding which one of them is a " better" parent. 

[shelley1234]

4 minutes ago, Lm2162 said:

He doesn't work at the gym, he just goes there a lot (remember the episode where he was angry he had to take care of Kaiser during "gym time?"). Adam is actually a certified trainer. 

And the benefits don't really matter in terms of money as Jenelle has a lot more. Regardless, it's not based on those things. Neither of them have employment besides TM2 and both of them have violent charges. Nathan has 3 DUIs, not 2, and a conviction for resisting arrest, disobeying an officer, driving with a suspended license, and something crazy like going the wrong way down a freeway. Both of them have other children but no custody. I'd hate to be the judge deciding which one of them is a " better" parent. 

The money does matter, but it isn't a huge factor.  It isn't a competition in terms of who has more when it comes to custody, but it does come into play as part of being able to provide a secure, stable home.  Lack of consistent income makes that hard.  Both Nathan and Jenelle have that, however Nathan's income will continue when the show ends.  It would be interesting to know how many DWIs Nathan has been convicted for...since most times it is pled down the first and often second time.  

If I was making the decision, I'd base it on which crappy parent has the most consistent and present support system.

[lezlers]

2 hours ago, Lm2162 said:

Nathan is in school and employed?! If that's true, that's news to me. Where did you find that out?

Watching the show?  He refers to specific classes he's taking in almost all of his scenes.   I might be wrong on the employment thing, though.  I forgot he's on disability, which in my opinion, absolves someone of "lazy" status for not working.

[ReadMeLattice]

He has been convicted of all of them. That's why he served jail time, because it was listed as his third DUI offense (which it would not be if he was not convicted). I just looked it up and he also pled guilty to physically threatening an officer and giving a false name and address. What's most upsetting about that is that if he was convicted 3 times, he obviously had a pattern of drinking and driving, as you're not caught every time. 

I wonder why he hasn't tried to get custody of his daughter. His daughter's mother says he only sees her every once in a while, "when he can." What is he spending so much time doing if he doesn't work? 

If he truly has PTSD so badly he cannot work (that's his disability), he should not be drinking as that only exacerbates the effects. So he isn't lazy because it's his mental disability that causes him to be unable to work, but we've seen him regularly engaging in activities (having kids willy nilly, binge drinking, getting DUIs, and clearly taking steroids) that exacerbate said disability and its potential danger to others.

He also lied about his "awards" he received in the military, so I don't trust a word out of his mouth.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Lm2162

[Lemons]

45 minutes ago, lezlers said:

1 hour ago, Lm2162 said:

. Nathan has 3 DUIs, not 2, and a conviction for resisting arrest, disobeying an officer, driving with a suspended license, and something crazy like going the wrong way down a freeway.

How old is he?  Was he even in the service long enough to get veteran's benefits?  I don't know anything about being in the service but I don't understand why they would continue paying him a monthly income when he is no longer in the service.  And if he is on disability, I would assume it is a mental health disability because he has no physical impairments.   Does that have anything to do with his rage issues?  Would the disability affect his ability to care for a child full time?  Would he be able to afford to work and pay daycare?

 Does he help support his other child?  If he's getting disability and not sending at least a token amount to each child, then why would he be deserving of full custody? 

I can't figure out how anyone would think he is the better choice.

[shelley1234]

8 minutes ago, Lm2162 said:

He has been convicted of all of them. That's why he served jail time, because it was listed as his third DUI offense (which it would not be if he was not convicted). I just looked it up and he also pled guilty to physically threatening an officer and giving a false name and address. What's most upsetting about that is that if he was convicted 3 times, he obviously had a pattern of drinking and driving, as you're not caught every time. 

I wonder why he hasn't tried to get custody of his daughter. His daughter's mother says he only sees her every once in a while, "when he can." What is he spending so much time doing if he doesn't work? 

If he truly has PTSD so badly he cannot work (that's his disability), he should not be drinking as that only exacerbates the effects. So he isn't lazy because it's his mental disability that causes him to be unable to work, but we've seen him regularly engaging in activities (having kids willy nilly, binge drinking, getting DUIs, and clearly taking steroids) that exacerbate said disability and its potential danger to others.

He also lied about his "awards" he received in the military, so I don't trust a word out of his mouth.

It's pretty common place for those with PTSD to drink as a form of self medication.  I volunteer, raise money and work for an organization here that works with veterans who return to war with PTSD and TBIs and the increase in alcohol use and abuse is pretty common place.  Knowing about it and being able to treat it as a symptom of the trauma is really important...instead of just continuing to shame someone going through that level of trauma.

I don't know much about Nathan before he was on the show, however I do know a lot about alcohol abuse/use, trauma and those who return from serving our country.  

In my experience...disability is also not easy to obtain, especially for someone at such a young age.  Most people get denied two to three times over and spend years fighting it in appeal.  If he was awarded disability so quickly...it must be a pretty decent case.  

[Lemons]

25 minutes ago, shelley1005 said:

It's pretty common place for those with PTSD to drink as a form of self medication.  

If that's what he is doing then he can't get custody of a child until he has that under control.  And did he actually see combat?  Where?  His whole story is fishy.

[HeySandyStrange]

34 minutes ago, Lemons said:

If that's what he is doing then he can't get custody of a child until he has that under control.  And did he actually see combat?  Where?  His whole story is fishy.

To play devil's advocate, Nathan hasn't been featured that much this season at all so for all we know, he could have gotten his drinking under control. He could also be getting help for both his mental and drinking issues.

As for seeing combat...I've never seen actual evidence that he has one way or the other. But you don't need direct combat experience to be able to claim military related PTSD. For instance, sexual trauma while in the military is a big cause for a lot of service members to develop PTSD, and they can get compensated for it. Or even if he wasn't in direct combat, Nathan could've been deployed and even if he never left the base, he could've experienced something traumatic (ie, incoming mortar fire that killed people in front of him).

Personally, I don't care much for Nathan as he comes off as hypocritical and full of himself, but I will say, I do see in him a lot of the signs of PTSD that I've witnessed first hand. I think because he is a natural douche it is a little harder to sympathize with him and separate what is mental and what is just sucky personality traits.

[ReadMeLattice]

1 hour ago, shelley1005 said:

It's pretty common place for those with PTSD to drink as a form of self medication.  I volunteer, raise money and work for an organization here that works with veterans who return to war with PTSD and TBIs and the increase in alcohol use and abuse is pretty common place.  Knowing about it and being able to treat it as a symptom of the trauma is really important...instead of just continuing to shame someone going through that level of trauma.

I don't know much about Nathan before he was on the show, however I do know a lot about alcohol abuse/use, trauma and those who return from serving our country.  

In my experience...disability is also not easy to obtain, especially for someone at such a young age.  Most people get denied two to three times over and spend years fighting it in appeal.  If he was awarded disability so quickly...it must be a pretty decent case.  

I have PTSD myself from severe abuse and am an advocate for rights of trauma survivors and my husband gets disability, so I understand all that. I am the last person who would shame anyone for having a mental health problem. However, they should be shamed for abusive behavior. Jenelle also has a severe, diagnosed mental health problem but she is responsible for her abusive behavior and no one ever questions that.

All that doesn't give you the right, no matter how you got your PTSD (and it doesn't matter, it's all trauma), to potentially kill others by getting repeated DUIs and nearly running people off the road. While mental illness can drive you to drink, it is pure selfishness that drives you to potentially murder others while you do it. They are two entirely separate issues. He wasn't arrested for public intoxication, he was arrested for DUIs and reckless driving. What if he did this with his child in the car? Would it be less reprehensible because he was once a Marine? He also chose to act the way he did when he was caught and to threaten the person who caught him. People with PTSD can still have moral compasses and personal agency. He has two children, doesn't have any custody of either and is only fighting for custody of one, and chose to procreate extremely quickly while knowing he was an abusive alcoholic with a severe mental illness. That was his choice. Instead of focusing on his health and his existing child, he chose to partner with another abusive, emotionally damaged addict and to repeatedly abuse her on camera (as did she, to him, and no matter how awful someone is, no one deserves abuse). All his choices, and not every single choice someone makes is due to their mental illness. You don't get to harm, abuse, and endanger others, or eschew responsibility for your children, because you are a veteran or because you have a clinically diagnosed mental health issue. It's fine to have sympathy but that doesn't mean they should have custody of a child. That's about the child's safety, not whether or not we can empathize with the parent. 

Edited May 1, 2016 by Lm2162

[starfire]

From what has been posted here, I had thought Nathan's daughter lived with his mom and he had supervised visitation and was only allowed a visit once per month. I was just Googling to see if I could find out more about his PSTD, and came across this article (not sure about the reliability, and it's 2 yrs. old)  that says his daughter lives with the parents of his ex-wife and he only sees her once a month because they only bring her down once per month. I found another article that says his daughter lives with the parents of Allison Stevens, his ex-wife.

Have things changed and his daughter now lives with his mom, or is this how it has always been? In the article, Jenelle says he has a brain injury.

I agree his story is fishy. He is supposedly capable of taking care of Kaiser full-time but apparently has not established more visitation than once per month with his daughter? I think he would probably be okay with just seeing Kaiser once or twice a month for a few hours.

These people...Nathan, Jenelle, Adam..... all drive me nuts with how they act like they are great, deserving parents but don't have custody of one or more of their kids and don't do anything real that involves true effort to be responsible for them and consistently be in their lives.

http://www.wetpaint.com/jenelle-evans-talks-nathan-griffith-relationship-825920/

[starfire]

Twitter post where Nathan's ex clarifies to a follower that his visits are not supervised. Jenelle chimes in that courts only allow once per month visits but Allison says he could see his daughter more if he wanted to.

Edited May 1, 2016 by starfire

[ReadMeLattice]

Yeah, neither of them have any actual custody rights but they are both allowed visitation. He just doesn't take the opportunity. 

[starfire]

I think Nathan would probably shit bricks if he was awarded full custody of Kaiser. It didn't seem like he wanted to see him all that much before he filed, and he could see his daughter more than one time per month if he really wanted to, but he doesn't.  So once a month, when she is apparently delivered to him, is good enough for him.  Yes, it's inconvenient that his daughter lives 4 hours away and he probably doesn't have a license, but he has plenty of time to go see her ...a greyhound if that's what it takes, and enough money to spend the night in a motel if needed. But he doesn't make the effort to see his daughter regularly, let alone the effort to get even partial custody of her, yet all of a sudden he wants Kaiser full time. None of this makes sense to me. All these people are jerks. 

Edited May 1, 2016 by starfire

[Christina]

Nathan receives disability as a result of a head injury received in combat. He posted a photo of his ribbons and service papers when someone was harassing him about it. His paperwork wasn't up to date resulting in some people insisting that he was lying, but received an overwhelming amount of support over the paperwork being behind for everyone. In real time, his job is with the arena football team where he lives. I don't know if it pays, but Jenelle made an issue about someone with a brain injury receiving 100% disability but being able to play football.

I think everyone agrees that neither one should have kids. They are both violent, substance abusers, but if I had to choose one, I would choose Nathan because he doesn't live with Dave. That relationship is going to end in murder. 

[lezlers]

4 hours ago, shelley1005 said:

It's pretty common place for those with PTSD to drink as a form of self medication.  I volunteer, raise money and work for an organization here that works with veterans who return to war with PTSD and TBIs and the increase in alcohol use and abuse is pretty common place.  Knowing about it and being able to treat it as a symptom of the trauma is really important...instead of just continuing to shame someone going through that level of trauma.

I don't know much about Nathan before he was on the show, however I do know a lot about alcohol abuse/use, trauma and those who return from serving our country.  

In my experience...disability is also not easy to obtain, especially for someone at such a young age.  Most people get denied two to three times over and spend years fighting it in appeal.  If he was awarded disability so quickly...it must be a pretty decent case.  

This.  There are a LOT of veterans that come through our criminal justice system, enough that in my jurisdiction they've started a specialty court for them.  Most of them have substance abuse issues.  Self medicating is quite common amongst those with PTSD, including veterans. There are quite a few resources out there for veterans and I'm glad Nathan has gotten connected with them. 

3 hours ago, Lemons said:

If that's what he is doing then he can't get custody of a child until he has that under control.  And did he actually see combat?  Where?  His whole story is fishy.

Are you doubting he's a veteran?  Also, you don't have to actually be in the middle of combat to get PTSD.  I'm pretty sure his veteran status has been verified (he sure as hell wouldn't be receiving disability if it wasn't) and if he was making it up, that would've come to light.  Our dear Jenelle isn't one to take the high road when it comes to social media, after all. 

[ReadMeLattice]

1 hour ago, lezlers said:

This.  There are a LOT of veterans that come through our criminal justice system, enough that in my jurisdiction they've started a specialty court for them.  Most of them have substance abuse issues.  Self medicating is quite common amongst those with PTSD, including veterans. There are quite a few resources out there for veterans and I'm glad Nathan has gotten connected with them. 

Are you doubting he's a veteran?  Also, you don't have to actually be in the middle of combat to get PTSD.  I'm pretty sure his veteran status has been verified (he sure as hell wouldn't be receiving disability if it wasn't) and if he was making it up, that would've come to light.  Our dear Jenelle isn't one to take the high road when it comes to social media, after all. 

No one is shaming him for being an alcoholic or having PTSD. He's being shamed because he committed multiple crimes that endangered others' lives. He is still not trusted by the state with a car, or was not for quite a while. He flouted those rules even after he had already done so, continuing to drive with a suspended license. There is no connection between that and PTSD. And the officer he physically threatened (he pled guilty to this) and disobeyed (to this too) and cursed out, wasn't he "serving our country" too? Did he deserve that for getting a dangerous man off the road?

If Jenelle's bipolar disorder isn't enough to excuse her abusive behavior and her crimes (it is not), I don't know why Nathan's mental illness is. Hey, at least she used drugs primarily in her own home and was only violent to people she knew. He apparently didn't care who he killed as long as he got to drink...and if he was convicted 3 times, imagine how many more times he risked the lives of innocent strangers. Not very much like someone who's in the military in order to display respect/protectiveness towards U.S. citizens. 

Edited May 2, 2016 by Lm2162

[shelley1234]

I do think that assaults, violent outbursts and reckless behavior can have a connection to PTSD.  I think the amount that people don't understand the connection is staggering, including those suffering from it.  I don't know enough about Nathan to know if he behaved this way prior...which is totally possible, but I am gonna at least entertain that it is a symptom of his illness/injury.  It doesn't mean he isn't responsible...I don't think anyone has said that or made claims about his moral compass, but it is something to be looked at and dealt with as part of his treatment.  IMO.  All two cents of it.

[Lemons]

1 hour ago, lezlers said:

This.  There are a LOT of veterans that come through our criminal justice system, enough that in my jurisdiction they've started a specialty court for them.  Most of them have substance abuse issues.  Self medicating is quite common amongst those with PTSD, including veterans. There are quite a few resources out there for veterans and I'm glad Nathan has gotten connected with them. 

Are you doubting he's a veteran?  Also, you don't have to actually be in the middle of combat to get PTSD.  I'm pretty sure his veteran status has been verified (he sure as hell wouldn't be receiving disability if it wasn't) and if he was making it up, that would've come to light.  Our dear Jenelle isn't one to take the high road when it comes to social media, after all. 

I'm doubting everything that comes out of his mouth.  He obviously targeted Jenelle because she was on a TV show.  Just like Jenelle's new boyfriend.  And he wasn't a teenager when they had a child, unlike the original mothers/fathers.  He was a grown man who decided to have a baby with a women he barely knew and he also knew he wasn't in a position to support this child.  I don't care if he's a veteran or not, it doesn't change anything.  He's older than the teen parents and his behavior should reflect that.  Again, if he's self-medicating then he is not in a position to take care of the child without supervision.  Not until he stops self-medicating.

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

Here's the thing....with Jenelle, Kaiser has only Jenelle or Jenelle and scary David (or heroin-abusing nanny Tori), both of which are scarier to me than just Jenelle. With Nathan, Kaiser gets Nathan, Nathan's gf (who has no criminal record), and Nathan's mom. While both parents suck, the other people involved (significant others/friends/grandparents) are worse with Jenelle. 

[blubld43]

Quote

With Nathan, Kaiser gets Nathan, Nathan's gf (who has no criminal record), and Nathan's mom. 

This right here.  We've all seen Jenelle's "parenting".  If Kaiser were to move to Nathan's, you know the new girlfriend would be all over trying to be a good stepmom too, she wants to look good both to Nathan and the viewing audience.

Having typed that sentence, I realize how truly badly Kaiser has it in life:  his well-being has a lot to do with a viewing audience.  The poor kid, I just grieve for him every week.

[Tatum]

12 hours ago, Lm2162 said:

No one is shaming him for being an alcoholic or having PTSD. He's being shamed because he committed multiple crimes that endangered others' lives...If Jenelle's bipolar disorder isn't enough to excuse her abusive behavior and her crimes (it is not), I don't know why Nathan's mental illness is. Hey, at least she used drugs primarily in her own home and was only violent to people she knew.

Cutting the quote to save room. For me personally, Nathan is more sympathetic. That's not to say I excuse him having violent outbursts and drinking and driving, and encouraging a mentally unstable, selfish idiot to have a child when neither of them should be left in charge of a houseplant. These are two very unlikable people, and Kaiser is only first in a long line of people who have been or will be punished for their actions.

 

That said, the reason I find Nathan slightly more sympathetic, is that I think with therapy, rehab, and a more positive influence, he could be a better person. Will he seek these things out and commit to bettering himself? Probably not. But it's in the realm of possibility.

In my opinion, no amount of therapy, mood disorder medication, positive influences of any kind, are going to make Jenelle a better person. She just does not give a fuck unless it benefits her in some way. I just see complete and utter indifference when she looks at her kids.

 

Could Nathan feel the same way and just be acting for the cameras? Sure, I don't know him. But all we can do is go off of what we see. Nathan is not "good". He is only "better than Jenelle" in my opinion. To put this in perspective, I think Kaiser would be better off with Leah's doped up negligent parenting and the influence of her inbred hillbilly clan.

[lezlers]

58 minutes ago, Tatum said:

Cutting the quote to save room. For me personally, Nathan is more sympathetic. That's not to say I excuse him having violent outbursts and drinking and driving, and encouraging a mentally unstable, selfish idiot to have a child when neither of them should be left in charge of a houseplant. These are two very unlikable people, and Kaiser is only first in a long line of people who have been or will be punished for their actions.

 

That said, the reason I find Nathan slightly more sympathetic, is that I think with therapy, rehab, and a more positive influence, he could be a better person. Will he seek these things out and commit to bettering himself? Probably not. But it's in the realm of possibility.

In my opinion, no amount of therapy, mood disorder medication, positive influences of any kind, are going to make Jenelle a better person. She just does not give a fuck unless it benefits her in some way. I just see complete and utter indifference when she looks at her kids.

 

Could Nathan feel the same way and just be acting for the cameras? Sure, I don't know him. But all we can do is go off of what we see. Nathan is not "good". He is only "better than Jenelle" in my opinion. To put this in perspective, I think Kaiser would be better off with Leah's doped up negligent parenting and the influence of her inbred hillbilly clan.

I agree completely.   I'm not trying to say Nathan is an awesome person and that he has no issues but he at least seems to have some redeeming qualities and seems to be doing okay now, whereas we all know Jenelle is a lost cause who constantly puts her children in danger with her terrible choices in men and reckless behavior.

And anyone who argues that PTSD does not lead to reckless and potentially violent behavior doesn't know anything about the disease.  These things are well documented.  Nathan's life was permanently altered serving our country.  For me, that deserves a modicum of respect and sympathy.  He's not just a straight up douchebag for no reason like Adam.

[ReadMeLattice]

1 hour ago, lezlers said:

I agree completely.   I'm not trying to say Nathan is an awesome person and that he has no issues but he at least seems to have some redeeming qualities and seems to be doing okay now, whereas we all know Jenelle is a lost cause who constantly puts her children in danger with her terrible choices in men and reckless behavior.

And anyone who argues that PTSD does not lead to reckless and potentially violent behavior doesn't know anything about the disease.  These things are well documented.  Nathan's life was permanently altered serving our country.  For me, that deserves a modicum of respect and sympathy.  He's not just a straight up douchebag for no reason like Adam.

Of course PTSD leads to reckless and violent behavior, as does Jenelle's bipolar disorder. You are still legally and morally responsible for all of it. Being a veteran makes no difference. And what Nathan did could have been murderous. Period. He showed no regard for others' lives. I have PTSD but I've sought the help necessary, haven't had children while it was at its peak, haven't risked killing anyone or continued to drive after my license was suspended, and haven't targeted a celebrity to procreate with to get on TV. Implying that all that is due to PTSD is honestly insulting. Because someone was once a Marine, they get a permanent free pass to abuse whomever they want?!

Secondly, I guess I just don't see what others see when I look at Nathan. I see no discernible evidence that he could ever be any better. I thought he and Jenelle were well matched. Every time he was on screen, just like Jenelle, he acted abusive, violent, angry, selfish, disrespectful (including of the woman who saved his girlfriend's son from a life in foster care), impulsive, and trashy. He didn't display a single redeeming quality or ever seem to care about anyone but himself. At least not demonstrably. In his visitation agreement with his ex's parents, it's specified that they can't come intoxicated to see their daughter. Apparently this is a long-term problem for him and he's endangered his child before. There's no excuse for that. 

Edited May 2, 2016 by Lm2162

[Chicken Wing]

Kaiser's fucked either way.

[BitterApple]

7 minutes ago, Chicken Wing said:

Kaiser's fucked either way.

Pretty much. 

While Nathan has been arguably more affectionate towards Kaiser, I doubt he really wants the responsibility of raising a child 24/7. He seems like the type who would pass Kaiser off to his mom and swing by a couple of times a week to hang out. Everyone in Jenelle's circle seems to want to be a Weekend Parent.

[Chicken Wing]

Quote

While Nathan has been arguably more affectionate towards Kaiser, I doubt he really wants the responsibility of raising a child 24/7.

This. Nathan's big victory over Jenelle here is that he at least has been shown to act affectionate and attentive to the baby while Jenelle barely even looked at him. But that's about it. I haven't really seen anything else to suggest that he's any more interested in actually parenting a child than Jenelle has ever been.

[ReadMeLattice]

36 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

Pretty much. 

While Nathan has been arguably more affectionate towards Kaiser, I doubt he really wants the responsibility of raising a child 24/7. He seems like the type who would pass Kaiser off to his mom and swing by a couple of times a week to hang out. Everyone in Jenelle's circle seems to want to be a Weekend Parent.

He also seems like a much better actor/liar...every one of his scenes seems calculated. The only times we've seen the real Nathan, IMO, are the times he was drunk (the "trailer trash" and "you're nothing special" scenes) and when he was high (when he'd said he was in a different state for days but had actually been in the house the whole time, or something? And was clearly hopped up on drugs of some kind). And that was fucking terrifying. 

I wonder if he showed any affection towards his daughter. I doubt it. He seems like the type to prefer a son because he sees a mirror image of himself. 

[ghoulina]

23 hours ago, Lemons said:

Nathan has a recent domestic violence conviction and 2 DUI's.  Those are serious issues.  Do you remember the horrible abuse that Nathan piled on Jenelle and Barbara?  Just because it was Jenelle doesn't make it right. 

I don't remember Nathan ever being abusive to Barb. Rude and hostile, yes. But abusive? As for the stuff with Jenelle, I'm of the mind that a man should generally walk away, so I'm not trying to make excuses. But Jenelle has a track record for starting shit. She gives as good as she gets. She will not hesitate to get physical, so I can see some of their scuffles being the result of a more mutual fight than Nathan just coming home and beating Jenelle for no reason. 

Personally, I think if Nathan got the proper help, he has a CHANCE of being a decent person. I have seen him show real emotion towards his child. I don't know if there is any saving Jenelle. There is nothing behind her eyes. At all. 

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

Nathan was an asshole to Barb and it seemed to me like he was trying to alienate Jenelle from Barb (which is definitely a classic abuser trait) BUT with Nathan and Jenelle's other soul mates (like David), we have to keep in mind all of the stuff Jenelle probably tells these guys about Barb before they even meet her. She surely cries about how crappy her childhood was, how her mom doesn't love her, how her mom "stole" Jace, how her mom is a jelly hater, etc. So any guy who likes Jenelle is going to go into the relationship disliking Barb after they hear Jenelle's sob story. It's only natural to dislike someone who has (allegedly) so "wronged" your soul mate, after all. (I hope this makes sense. It doesn't excuse Nathan or David's mistreatment of Barb)

[ReadMeLattice]

19 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

I don't remember Nathan ever being abusive to Barb. Rude and hostile, yes. But abusive? As for the stuff with Jenelle, I'm of the mind that a man should generally walk away, so I'm not trying to make excuses. But Jenelle has a track record for starting shit. She gives as good as she gets. She will not hesitate to get physical, so I can see some of their scuffles being the result of a more mutual fight than Nathan just coming home and beating Jenelle for no reason. 

Personally, I think if Nathan got the proper help, he has a CHANCE of being a decent person. I have seen him show real emotion towards his child. I don't know if there is any saving Jenelle. There is nothing behind her eyes. At all. 

He told her it was her fault Jenelle had been on heroin (definitely abusive IMO), cursed her out, screamed in her face, and ran her out of the house for criticizing the fact that Jenelle was financially supporting him and that Nathan didn't have custody of his child. 

I agree that Jenelle starts shit, and the domestic violence charge was bogus, though I do believe it was mutual and not only her fault. It's not like his other relationship that ended in a baby went well. However, when he called her those disgusting names and psychologically abused her, she was sitting there sober while he was trashed/high. When he said "you're nothing special, I'm so above you," she said, "I'm the mother of your child." In another scene (drunk again), he told her she was trailer trash who hit the lottery...when she was pregnant and he was living in the house she purchased, and getting checks from a show he was only on for dating her.  

Edited May 2, 2016 by Lm2162