S02.E09: Nailed

Chaos Theory · April 12, 2016

I am pretty sure HHM is a privately owned company otherwise Chuck wouldn't have gotten away with as much as he has gotten away with. The company has gone to great lengths to keep him happy. A publicly owned company would have "retired" him at the first signs of mental instability. I think Chuck owns the majority of the company. Maybe Chuck and Howard did something close to what Jimmy and Kim are doing now.

PrincessSteel · April 12, 2016

But how cute...Mike and the waitress! Go get it Mike...shovel her driveway and have a little fun!

Yeah, as long as he doesn't continue to get cock-blocked by 'Check, please!' Guy.

Umbelina · April 12, 2016

So, did Mike use his own car or not? I can't tell or remember for sure, or find a clear photo of it last night. Help!

I thought this too. My sense is that any legal trouble for Jimmy would be an entirely secondary sort of victory for Chuck. If he can nail down evidence of Jimmy's copy shop shenanigans he finally has concrete irrefutable proof that "See, I was right. Jimmy did too do this" to rub in everyone's faces after a lifetime of everyone important to him liking and believing Jimmy despite anything he might tell them otherwise.

Assuming Chuck survives, he may have bigger concerns now like trying to prove his own competency. The doctor all the way back in season 1 thought he should be committed, and the Schweikart attorneys in the Sandpiper case indicated that Chuck's issues aren't exactly a well kept secret. And that was before he belligerently argued with his own client in court about their own address and basically short circuited and injured himself in front of witnesses in a copy place. What happens to Chuck's rather substantial stake in HHM if he ends up deemed incompetent and committed?

I love the idea of Chuck having to prove his competency. There are so many ways this story can go, so it's exciting (yay!) and unpredictable right now, which I love. McKean is a great actor, but I've been very tired of his scenes, since they've all been one version or another of "Jimmy HARMED me!" and pushing Jimmy into becoming Saul. Last night it was different, and better, same old theme, but so wonderfully done!

People often don't appreciate that once a process starts where people give depositions (and there are many ways such a process might start here), things can begin to snowball. This has the potential for catastrophe, for Jimmy, KIm, Chuck, and Howard, and even all of HHM's employees, and even HHM's clients (having your legal work being done by a firm with a mentally ill partner, with the other partner allowing him to continue to have a management role, produces all kinds of potential exposure. Yikes). HHM's continued existence might be threatened.

I kind of love that idea, if they can do it in a way that's exciting, and I think they can. I'd love to see the Ken Doll (Howard) struggling and revealed, the firm in jeopardy, but only if the payoff is really good, as in, it works. Sink H&M.

I think there is zero chance of Lance cooperating with anything after taking money from Jimmy and witnessing the craziness of Chuck. Even if anyone is able to drag him into a deposition (which is unlikely) I'm sure he will not remember Jimmy doing anything.

Mesa Verde may have a claim against HMM but Chuck really has no claim against Jimmy. If Lance has no memory of Jimmy, Chuck has absolutely no evidence against Jimmy and sounds more irrational every time he tries to tell people that it's impossible for him to make a mistake.

As for Jimmy's fingerprints being on the box and paperwork, the files are now in Kim's possession and he helped her move them. He also shares office space with her so even checking for fingerprints would be meaningless.

I found it ironic that Chuck had the gall to complain about his brother sabotaging him after all he has done to Jimmy at HMM and the charade he went through of pretending he was on Jimmy's side and pretending Howard was the bad guy when he was actually the one holding him back. Chuck's outrage that his own brother could do that him just fell flat in light of his own actions.

I love that you caught that about the fingerprints. Also, they share an office, there are ways Jimmy's prints could be on documents, easiest? Drop the box and gather them up.

Whatever you might think of Chuck,Michael McKean plays him flawlessly. I am consistently amazed at both the acting of everyone involved and the camerawork.

He does, I have zero complaints about his acting, I just think they've run him into the ground because (until now) it's just been lather, rinse, repeat with him.

I don't care, I whooped for joy when Chuck banged his fucking head. If he lives, I hope he spends the rest of his life in a mental hospital, and I hope they bring him the wrong apples every day. Maybe those hard, juiceless, delicious apples.

I did as well. Again, nothing against McKean, just so bored with the same old same old, I was bored before but when he started yet another soliloquy with Kim a few episodes ago, I was completely done. She barely said a word and it was her job on the line. Just endlessly listening to Chuck complain about Jimmy, as we have for 2 years now.

Yes, and I think in this instance, it is very important to him that he not be seen as incompetent or less than careful. He's always been stellar, apparently, and prides himself in being detail-oriented and precise. He wants to be vindicated of making a mistake, which we know he did not make.

I think the consequences could be heavy on HHM, whether it is in the nature of a malpractice suit, or reputational damage. This is all on Jimmy. It's kind of the brilliance of this story arc. He is basically likeable but skirts the law, and Chuck is mostly unlikeable but law-abiding. But now Jimmy has caused harm to Mesa Verde, and Kim would be a fool to trust him not to do that again, so I see the end in sight for their relationship. Chuck is now injured for real, and HHM is on shaky ground. I don't see Jimmy as the victor here even if he totally gets away with the document tampering.

Boxes, yes, files, not so meaningless. He would have no business being in those confidential files of another attorney.

Morally though, Chuck is a dick. He may not realize it, but he is. His goal in life is to keep Jimmy lower than he is. He stole the Old Folks lawsuit from Jimmy, and he stole the bank from Kim. So what if he did it because HE felt it was right, and carefully finagled it to be legal? His actions are the entire reason Jimmy reacted, pretty much to everything.

I got to wondering how the truck tires could be roadworthy after being stuffed with drugs and/or cash? How would that be accomplished - anyone know? How would drugs in tires not be sniffable by dogs?

The drugs were in the car I believe.

Ronin Jackson · April 12, 2016

I wonder how the shot of Chuck's head banging into the counter was staged/created. That was a pretty hard hit. Was that a Chuck dummy used in place of Chuck's actual head? Or maybe the counter was made of something that was not actually hard, so he could hit it without a real injury?

Apparently it was both a padded counter (a fairly common movie prop... anytime someone is beaten with a weapon it's a padded prop) and McKean was on harnessed wire that stopped his head from actually hitting the counter. Peter Gould apparently performed the stunt himself many times to convince himself it was safe for McKean (this is from the insider podcast).

PrincessSteel · April 12, 2016

Kim is nobody's fool and my new hero. Of course she knew that Chuck was right, and she gave him NOTHING. What's your evidence, indeed. Occam's Razor is Jimmy's friend. (Occam's X-Acto Knife?) I predict that the final (or penultimate) scene of the season will feature Jimmy sitting at Chuck's hospital bedside as the first Saul-esque commercial plays on the telly.

dwmarch · April 12, 2016

BTW, the first several posts in this thread were obviously done while the ep was playing instead of afterwards. Is that permitted? They were annoying as hell to read.

At TWOP this was a definite no-no but then again they also frowned on breathing and blinking there. I'll check with a mod because I've noticed it too and it makes for a very disjointed thread.

TVFan17 · April 12, 2016

I think this is absolutely the thing that keeps Mike in the game. And Hector has to end up in that chair somehow, so ...

I wonder about where Chuck was going with his plan. It was brilliant that he figured out it was totally Jimmy behind all this, but what's he gonna do even if he finds some proof that Jimmy was indeed in a copy place that night. Chuck's already sure Jimmy did it, but without proof, Chuck of all people knows it ends there. What is he realistically hoping to find, old cut-up legal briefs? Super-sharp focus surveillance tape so they can read over Jimmy's shoulder? If I understood what Jimmy did, he planted the doctored documents, got Chuck to use the bogus address, then removed all the bogus documents and replaced the real ones. Sounds like the perfect crime.

It's a bit of a stretch to say that Jimmy anticipated the outcome of his little prank. Not a paperwork-filing dude, me, but I was wondering if clerical errors happen all the time IRL. Embarrassing, sure, but who'd have guessed it would derail everything? I mean it was Chuck coming off the rails that made the situation worse, but who'd have guessed that Chuck'd be there to do that?

I, personally, used to do legal typing, and I worked at a place where there was a lot of legal typing and transcription done by other people. If the document is being typed from a tape or recording of some sort, it can be very, very easy to misunderstand something that is being said, or just incorrectly hear what is being said, which results in typos and clerical errors in the documents. If the document is being typed from something written out by hand and the writing is terrible, it can be easy to type a wrong number or letter. It is assumed and hoped that after the first draft of a pleading or other legal document is put together, the attorney will look it over and make changes, then turn in another draft, then look it over again, do the Proof of Service, and so on. Jimmy got hold of the Mesa Verde documents after they had been proofread and finalized, it appears.

A lot of times the attorneys need the pleadings and other documents to be done yesterday. They are under a lot of pressure and they put extreme pressure on the people doing their typing -- which, of course, can also result in clerical errors and typos. If they are under the gun and have to, for example, race to the courthouse to be there by 10:00 a.m., they might not have any time to proofread the documents and make sure that every letter and digit is perfect. A lot of times the attorneys are not even looking for typos so much as just making sure the general content of the document is correct (the content that will support their arguments/cases).

Presumably, Chuck would be the sort of attorney that would go over these documents with magnifying glass at every step, making sure they were perfect. So Jimmy could only do his thing with them after they had been revised and proofed several times over.

So, all of that is to say that typos and incorrect digits or letters are more common that it would seem in these legal documents, and most of the time it will probably not derail everything if it is something innocuous -- for example, if someone types the word "adrdes" instead of "address" -- but in certain cases it can derail everything. It really just depends on what the specific mistake is. An actual street or business address is pretty important to get correct, so I can see that it would delay things for a while.

Wow. What an ep.

Loved seeing Mike execute his plan. It was beautiful how his spike strip seemed to magically appear to the driver.

Thanks for putting that together for me. Although I enjoyed the scene with the waitress, I didn't quite see the point of it. I had also initially thought that Mike was buying drinks for the bar in order to get Hector's attention that Mike had his money. So it makes more sense that we were just seeing Mike enjoying his triumph... only to get slapped upside the head when he learns he caused an innocent man -- a Good Samaritan -- to be killed. I'm not so sure this will lead Mike to get vengence against Hector for this. He might just simmer in his guilty feelings for a while.

I also loved how Jimmy's plan played out in court. I wonder how much Jimmy planned for Chuck to help hang himself by unleashing his hubris onto his clients. His refusal to accept that he was to blame for the 1261/16 error was terrific to watch. Of course Chuck was completely right. That's the beauty of it.

Chuck is truly brilliant. What a mind to be able to figure out what happened, which he could only do because he KNEW he didn't make the mistake. I did not expect Kim's reaction, but that was fantastic. She just turned on her attorney mind and defended Jimmy. Her smack-down of Chuck was so satisfying.

And, yes, Kim will be feeling guilt, too. Not only did she indirectly send Jimmy to the copy center, resulting in Chuck's head injury, but she probably knew that Chuck was right, yet she chose to defend Jimmy instead of allowing that Chuck could be right. She could have ended it right then. So she's culpable as well.

Lingo, thanks for that Yahoo article. The explanation of how the stunt was executed was really fascinating.

I don't know if anything significant will happen with Ernie. He was a good employee as he helped Chuck from day one, but I think he can't really like Chuck as a person. He does seem to really like Jimmy. So if it comes down to supporting one or the other, I think he'll go with Jimmy. I may be surprised.

BTW, the first several posts in this thread were obviously done while the ep was playing instead of afterwards. Is that permitted? They were annoying as hell to read.

"Annoying as hell"? Really? As one of the people typing those comments that annoyed you, I must ask -- why did you read them if they annoyed you? Just skip over them.

We were live chatting. I would assume that the BCS threads had not been quite busy or active enough in the past to warrant a separate live chat thread (like what exists on TWD's forum) from the episode thread, but maybe for the finale and Season 3 we can start doing a separate live chat thread. We've been live chatting in the episode threads for BCS for quite a while at this point (weeks and weeks, if not the whole season).

I've seen you say you don't want any talk of future episode previews in the threads. You don't want a lot of BB talk in the threads, either. You don't want us to comment in the episode thread while the episode is airing. We're all willing to abide by whatever rules are set forth by the mods (I'm a mod myself, on another website, so I understand how that goes), so it's the mods who should step in and set the rules for us. I am fine with whatever they set forth.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Sherry67

xyzzy · April 12, 2016

I felt like Kim was my very own personal audience surrogate in this episode. She knows Jimmy did exactly what Chuck is saying but she also knows exactly where both of them are coming from. And, like me, she judged Chuck to be the guiltier of the two. I could have written her monologue and pretty much did in last week's episode thread. (Only not nearly as well, because I am not a writer for one of the best shows on television.) I am experiencing some sweet, sweet schadenfreude at Chuck's panic over the betrayal. Don't like how it feels, do you, Chuck? I'm glad he hit his stupid head. The actor is amazing, by the way. I never have intense feelings for characters played by terrible actors.

I also loved the bedroom scene with Kim and Jimmy. "Chuck's a smart lawyer... no stone unturned... would have to be extremely careful to not leave any evidence behind..." Then she offers no further comment when Jimmy climbs out of bed and picks up his keys. I really dig the complexity of their relationship.

SailorGirl · April 12, 2016

So, did Mike use his own car or not? I can't tell or remember for sure, or find a clear photo of it last night. Help!

No -- it was a smaller, bright blue car. Mike's car is a gray, larger sedan. I actually thought -- wow, smart to not use your own car. I didn't think about the purpose of choosing bright blue until writing this reply, but I'm sure it was intentional -- it was a very noticeable color and one of the few details the driver will clearly remember. Mike is no fool and there is no way he would spend all that time surveilling the Salamanca operation and then slip up on something as simple as using his own car. I'm sure that "burner" car has since been abandoned, torched, or otherwise destroyed and any traceability removed.

HDD (hot drug dealer) made it clear that Tio had completely forgotten about Mike. Even if they thought for a passing moment that it might possibly be the "old gringo" operating alone, they know what kind of car he drives, and it isn't a bright blue smaller sedan.

henripootel · April 12, 2016

I predict that the final (or penultimate) scene of the season will feature Jimmy sitting at Chuck's hospital bedside as the first Saul-esque commercial plays on the telly.

My hopes for the final scene: Mike sits down in his favorite diner, having found a way to spike Hector Salamanca's blood pressure and leave him communicating with a bell. Flirty waitress walks away and a slim, bespectacled man sits down uninvited.

"Please do not be alarmed, Mr. Ehrmantraut, I am, in fact, in your debt. My name is Gustavo Fring, and I may have a job for you."

Make this happen, Gilligan.

Edited April 12, 2016 by henripootel

RCharter · April 12, 2016

Yeah, as long as he doesn't continue to get cock-blocked by 'Check, please!' Guy.

That asshole! Wait a minute jackass.....there is some magic happening right now at table 4!

LoneHaranguer · April 12, 2016

Jimmy wanted the tape that was being created right then, when the bribe was paid, to be erased. I suppose it is possible that there wasn't time to complete the task before Chuck arrived, which could be the way Jimmy remains in peril.

Since what was to be erased also showed Lance taking the bribe and he'd want to minimize what was missing from the tape, I think it'd be a priority for him to do it and it wouldn't have taken long.

RCharter · April 12, 2016

We aren't going to agree. Jimmy was there for hours in the middle of the night, in an empty print shop. I don't think it is unlikely that Lance will be able to say, if he cooperated, that it was some kind of document being altered, and the standard here is not beyond a reasonable doubt, and Chuck complaining isn't the only way this results in depositions being taken.

Its not up to a witness to make a conclusion about what is being done, because there is no way from Lance's vantage point that he could see what was being done. A witness can only talk about those things they have personal knowledge of, Lance didn't see him doctor any document therefore he could not say that he did. The standard would at least be a preponderance of the evidence....which is simply not met. You have to show by a preponderance of the evidence that specific legal documents were doctored by Jimmy. I don't see how that bare and minimal standard of proof could be met, when no one can even prove that the documents were doctored in the first place. The originals are back in the file, so there is no proof that they were ever even doctored to begin with. Except for Chuck's insistence that he didn't make a mistake.

benteen · April 12, 2016

Chuck also annoyed me with his "I never expected my brother to stab me in the back" crap. Pot calling the kettle black there.

RCharter · April 12, 2016

Howard told Chuck he didn't have the regulatory/legal acumen to win Mesa Verde back, and we have seen already that Howard is a horrible manager of employees. He's pretty much a useless figurehead, who arrived at his position because his daddy wanted him to be there.

Yes, and he didn't seem that passionate about getting them back. Even when Howard has shown any degree of "care," he has put what is best for the company above all else. He didn't insist that Chuck be at the meeting, he just asked him to write some stuff down for him to say. It seemed he was more going through the motions of trying to get Mesa Verde back instead of passionately chasing them down or insisting that Chuck contact them directly or that they get out there the same day. The work that Kim put in showed a passion to get Mesa Verde.....Howard didn't even call them personally. Which means that in all likelihood HHM was doing fine before Mesa Verde and will be doing fine after Mesa Verde. HHM was doing fine before Chuck came back and they will do fine after Chuck leaves.

Lingo · April 12, 2016

Sherry67, thank you for your legal insight, even though you are not a lawyer. There is a whole lot of speculation in here, but without the input of actual lawyers or people in that field, I have no idea what is really in the realm of possibility as to the possible consequences for Jimmy and the rest.

The on-screen evidence suggests that Chuck doesn't have much of a case against Jimmy and he knows it, and that is why his FIRST reaction was to arrange a meeting with Kim and hope to convince her. He knows she prides herself on her integrity and was counting on her to recuse herself from MV's employ as he demanded (and maybe he hoped that this would cause MV to switch back to HHM again). If he really felt that he had a good chance of getting Jimmy in legal trouble, we would have gone about his investigation surreptitiously, without ever letting Kim and Jimmy know he had any suspicions. And yet, after Kim rejected his demands, he carried on in his investigation anyway...because he's desperate to regain his reputation, I guess.

I feel bad for Kim because she'd fought hard to maintain that integrity up till this point, but ultimately abandoned it for Jimmy's sake. After she refused to talk to Jimmy about it I thought maybe she'd try to hide from the truth, to try to convince herself that Jimmy really was innocent, to maintain a shadow of a doubt within her own mind. But then she basically told Jimmy to cover his tracks and he responded, and she's can't deny that it happened.

henripootel · April 12, 2016

Except for Chuck's insistence that he didn't make a mistake.

Chuck's insistence that he isn't capable of making such a mistake. Which he'll testify to while wearing a tinfoil hat. Yeah, I don't see that suit going forward, and I do see Howard's soul struggling to leave his body as Chuck gives that deposition.

If Saul really wants to stick it to Chuck, he should go tell Howard about Chuck's ridiculous, baseless (and possibly slanderous) accusations. Chuck dropped the ball and he's trying to make Kim pay for it. That'll get Howard's attention.

Edited April 12, 2016 by henripootel

RCharter · April 12, 2016

People often don't appreciate that once a process starts where people give depositions (and there are many ways such a process might start here), things can begin to snowball. This has the potential for catastrophe, for Jimmy, KIm, Chuck, and Howard, and even all of HHM's employees, and even HHM's clients (having your legal work being done by a firm with a mentally ill partner, with the other partner allowing him to continue to have a management role, produces all kinds of potential exposure. Yikes). HHM's continued existence might be threatened.

I actually think that people don't often appreciate how much you have to show to even get to point to deposing witnesses. You can't just start deposing people, as its part of the discovery process, which means your case has to survive until that point. Which this case probably cannot because they can't even show by a bare minimum that that documents were doctored.

Minor point. The original video tape of Jimmy in the print shop has been erased, as Lance explained. These were the days before video data being stored automatically for long periods of time. Jimmy wanted the tape that was being created right then, when the bribe was paid, to be erased. I suppose it is possible that there wasn't time to complete the task before Chuck arrived, which could be the way Jimmy remains in peril.

But again, Chuck has to actually get the tape before it is automatically erased in 12 hours from the bribe. Or someone has to get the tape. The bribe happened after Ernie was there, so Ernie doesn't really even know about the tape. The cops could possibly want it, but why? As far as they know its just some crazy guy that was screaming at an employee about "knowing about something" that happened days ago....even if the cops wanted to know what happened, that tape is destroyed, and Chuck doesn't know about the bribe. The cops wouldn't really want the tape to know what happened, since there were 3 other people that saw what happened.

Perhaps Lance's boss keeps the tape for a potential civil action brought by Chuck, or perhaps Lance simply admits to someone that he took a bribe out of guilt. This all took place after Kim/Jimmy were in bed, so lets say it took place around 11pm......by 11am someone would have to rescue that tape from being taped back over. So maybe if Lance's manager/boss/supervisor wanted to retain the tape by 11am, or was even in by then. I could see the copy center wanting to have video evidence that their employee did nothing wrong and that they have no liability for Chucks injury. And this is all assuming that Lance doesn't immediately hustle back there to mess with the tape to cover his own butt.

Tara Ariano · April 12, 2016

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Better Call Saul Makes Kim Choose A Side
We get a new perspective on what kind of lawyer she wants to be, but then, apparently so does she.

henripootel · April 12, 2016

I could see the copy center wanting to have video evidence that their employee did nothing wrong and that they have no liability for Chucks injury. And this is all assuming that Lance doesn't immediately hustle back there to mess with the tape to cover his own butt.

I'm not sure anyone has done anything really actionable here. Lawyer-types correct me if I'm wrong, but it's not illegal for Jimmy to pay a guy money to keep quiet about something that isn't a police matter. Even if the copy guy comes completely clean, Jimmy's story kinda makes sense, or enough to explain away what Jimmy was up to. Chuck was saying crazy things, Jimmy had been making copies that night (an unrelated matter), and Jimmy thought this coincidence would upset Chuck enough that he might hurt himself. So he 'tried to prevent' what actually did happen, Chuck losing it and hurting himself.

It's a BS story but good luck making anything of it, given the lack of evidence that anything at all happened in the first place. I think Jimmy's in the clear here. Except with Kim, of course. And possibly his own conscience.

Edited April 12, 2016 by henripootel

hincandenza · April 12, 2016

This was a good episode, lots of great moments. A couple of stray thoughts:

1) When Jimmy and his camera crew were crossing the street to the school, did anyone else get an "Abbey Road" vibe?

2) The camera guy Jimmy uses: when he was smirking in the background while Jimmy razzle-dazzled the schoolteachers, it finally struck me that he looks a little like a young Vince Gilligan. Anyone else notice that?

That scene at Chuck's house was amazing, for all reasons people have recounted. I just really enjoyed the dramatic irony: outside of us in the audience, the three people in that room- Kim, Chuck, and Jimmy- are the only people who know the truth, and the only people who will ever suspect the truth... and none of them can/will talk about it honestly, even to each other. We in the audience are all watching thinking "Chuck is 100% right. Also, he sucks, and he can't prove a damn thing, so fuck Chuck". Kim was fantastic, defending her 'client' because Chuck is both brilliant/correct (in this case), and yet sounds completely nuts, and as the deciding vote of that trio, essentially voted that Chuck's sins outweight Jimmy's by a large margin, law be damned. As for anyone else: Hamlin, Mesa Verde, the state bar, probably even Ernesto at this point (who's had to see how eccentric and abusive Chuck is)... they all see Chuck as a seriously disturbed and apparently rapidly declining victim of mental illness.

Personally, I think Jimmy chooses to not get involved at the copy shop, Lance keeps his mouth shut (hopefully he's smart enough to realize that it's easier for him to keep the cash and stay out of it), and Jimmy gets away scot-free. But Jimmy has to live with the guilt of his brother's injury/death from a scheme going out of control, as well as Kim wisely deciding that she can't keep associating with him and maintain her own life and career... and these losses will springboard him further into becoming Saul in season 3 (fingers crossed). Without Chuck and Kim, Jimmy has no one left to impress or strive towards ethics and integrity.

Milburn Stone · April 12, 2016

I also loved the bedroom scene with Kim and Jimmy. "Chuck's a smart lawyer... no stone unturned... would have to be extremely careful to not leave any evidence behind..." Then she offers no further comment when Jimmy climbs out of bed and picks up his keys. I really dig the complexity of their relationship.

I know, that was great. She obviously knows that if she's more explicit than that--even in the privacy of their own bedroom!--then she's admitting to knowledge of Jimmy's skullduggery, which makes her an accomplice, or accessory, or whatever. So she preserves her innocence (in the eyes of the law) while getting the message across in spades. Brilliant writing.

Bannon · April 12, 2016

Its not up to a witness to make a conclusion about what is being done, because there is no way from Lance's vantage point that he could see what was being done. A witness can only talk about those things they have personal knowledge of, Lance didn't see him doctor any document therefore he could not say that he did. The standard would at least be a preponderance of the evidence....which is simply not met. You have to show by a preponderance of the evidence that specific legal documents were doctored by Jimmy. I don't see how that bare and minimal standard of proof could be met, when no one can even prove that the documents were doctored in the first place. The originals are back in the file, so there is no proof that they were ever even doctored to begin with. Except for Chuck's insistence that he didn't make a mistake.

As I have said, we aren't going to agree on this. You have a supposition with regard to what was possible for Lance to have seen, during the several hours Jimmy spent in the shop creating forgeries with an exacto knife. I don't agree with that supposition, and that's ok. Why don't we just drop it?

Bannon · April 12, 2016

Yes, and he didn't seem that passionate about getting them back. Even when Howard has shown any degree of "care," he has put what is best for the company above all else. He didn't insist that Chuck be at the meeting, he just asked him to write some stuff down for him to say. It seemed he was more going through the motions of trying to get Mesa Verde back instead of passionately chasing them down or insisting that Chuck contact them directly or that they get out there the same day. The work that Kim put in showed a passion to get Mesa Verde.....Howard didn't even call them personally. Which means that in all likelihood HHM was doing fine before Mesa Verde and will be doing fine after Mesa Verde. HHM was doing fine before Chuck came back and they will do fine after Chuck leaves.

If you wish to make a supposition that a law firm will continue to do fine, with an incompetent person running it, after it is revealed that the incompetent person has been allowing a mentally ill partner to handle important matters, and a client has suffered a major loss as a result, that's fine, but I don't think that supposition is anywhere near a certainty. Again, we simply disagree.

RCharter · April 12, 2016

As I have said, we aren't going to agree on this. You have a supposition with regard to what was possible for Lance to have seen, during the several hours Jimmy spent in the shop creating forgeries with an exacto knife. I don't agree with that supposition, and that's ok. Why don't we just drop it?

Yeah, I don't see how Lance could make a conclusion about what Jimmy was doing, and even if he could say that he knew Jimmy was doctoring documents....from a table in the middle of the copy center while Lance is behind the counter.....he couldn't really know what documents Jimmy was "doctoring." Even the term "doctoring documents" seems like too much of a conclusion for Lance to be able to draw even based on what he would have seen.

I personally don't mind the conversation, but if you'd like to drop it, I certainly won't pursue it.

TVFan17 · April 12, 2016

Sherry67, thank you for your legal insight, even though you are not a lawyer. There is a whole lot of speculation in here, but without the input of actual lawyers or people in that field, I have no idea what is really in the realm of possibility as to the possible consequences for Jimmy and the rest.

The on-screen evidence suggests that Chuck doesn't have much of a case against Jimmy and he knows it, and that is why his FIRST reaction was to arrange a meeting with Kim and hope to convince her. He knows she prides herself on her integrity and was counting on her to recuse herself from MV's employ as he demanded (and maybe he hoped that this would cause MV to switch back to HHM again). If he really felt that he had a good chance of getting Jimmy in legal trouble, we would have gone about his investigation surreptitiously, without ever letting Kim and Jimmy know he had any suspicions. And yet, after Kim rejected his demands, he carried on in his investigation anyway...because he's desperate to regain his reputation, I guess.

I feel bad for Kim because she'd fought hard to maintain that integrity up till this point, but ultimately abandoned it for Jimmy's sake. After she refused to talk to Jimmy about it I thought maybe she'd try to hide from the truth, to try to convince herself that Jimmy really was innocent, to maintain a shadow of a doubt within her own mind. But then she basically told Jimmy to cover his tracks and he responded, and she's can't deny that it happened.

I don't know all of the legal ramifications, loopholes and laws in general -- I wasn't really addressing that or giving specific legal insight. (I was usually bored beyond belief with the legal documents, and praying for something interesting to type up! Lol.) I was mainly addressing the clerical errors issue that henripootel asked about (because I worked in the clerical side of things), and how those issues happen, and the fact that some errors will get by without a problem while others will be a big problem. We dealt with a lot of attorneys one-on-one, and sometimes they would come back after a long day and tell us that one mistake had to be corrected, while other times certain things could get by without correction.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Sherry67

Bannon · April 12, 2016

I actually think that people don't often appreciate how much you have to show to even get to point to deposing witnesses. You can't just start deposing people, as its part of the discovery process, which means your case has to survive until that point. Which this case probably cannot because they can't even show by a bare minimum that that documents were doctored.

But again, Chuck has to actually get the tape before it is automatically erased in 12 hours from the bribe. Or someone has to get the tape. The bribe happened after Ernie was there, so Ernie doesn't really even know about the tape. The cops could possibly want it, but why? As far as they know its just some crazy guy that was screaming at an employee about "knowing about something" that happened days ago....even if the cops wanted to know what happened, that tape is destroyed, and Chuck doesn't know about the bribe. The cops wouldn't really want the tape to know what happened, since there were 3 other people that saw what happened.

Perhaps Lance's boss keeps the tape for a potential civil action brought by Chuck, or perhaps Lance simply admits to someone that he took a bribe out of guilt. This all took place after Kim/Jimmy were in bed, so lets say it took place around 11pm......by 11am someone would have to rescue that tape from being taped back over. So maybe if Lance's manager/boss/supervisor wanted to retain the tape by 11am, or was even in by then. I could see the copy center wanting to have video evidence that their employee did nothing wrong and that they have no liability for Chucks injury. And this is all assuming that Lance doesn't immediately hustle back there to mess with the tape to cover his own butt.

My guess is that Lance has been told to call his boss immediately when a person in the shop gets injured, and carted off to the hospital by ambulance. The first thing the boss says is "Make sure the tape isn't erased". Now we are in the realm of Lance's competency, and in a world where bank robbers have been known to leave their driver's license hehind, when they leave the bank, I don't think any assumption can be made with regard to that. If you disagree with that as well, that's ok, too.

Umbelina · April 12, 2016

My guess is that Lance has been told to call his boss immediately when a person in the shop gets injured, and carted off to the hospital by ambulance. The first thing the boss says is "Make sure the tape isn't erased". Now we are in the realm of Lance's competency, and in a world where bank robbers have been known to leave their driver's license hehind, when they leave the bank, I don't think any assumption can be made with regard to that. If you disagree with that as well, that's ok, too.

Oh, that is a really good point about the injury and the tape. Now, if he erases it, it really would be suspicious.

Although, I don't know if it will all matter, but it might.

Bannon · April 12, 2016

Yeah, I don't see how Lance could make a conclusion about what Jimmy was doing, and even if he could say that he knew Jimmy was doctoring documents....from a table in the middle of the copy center while Lance is behind the counter.....he couldn't really know what documents Jimmy was "doctoring." Even the term "doctoring documents" seems like too much of a conclusion for Lance to be able to draw even based on what he would have seen.

I personally don't mind the conversation, but if you'd like to drop it, I certainly won't pursue it.

We didn't watch Lance and Jimmy for several hours, of course.

I'll let you have the last word.

RCharter · April 12, 2016

If you wish to make a supposition that a law firm will continue to do fine, with an incompetent person running it, after it is revealed that the incompetent person has been allowing a mentally ill partner to handle important matters, and a client has suffered a major loss as a result, that's fine, but I don't think that supposition is anywhere near a certainty. Again, we simply disagree.

But is Howard incompetent? He has run HHM just fine without Chuck. They lost Mesa Verde, but were a giant law firm before and after Mesa Verde. I don't think Howard is any brilliant legal scholar, but incompetent.....I don't see that.

This looks like a simple transposition error.....which, as Sherry67 pointed out, happens all the time at law firms. That it cost the client is unfortunate, but I don't think its the first, or the last time there is an error in a filing. Not even the regulators seemed all that freaked out by it, and if Chuck hadn't been a major douche its possible he could have gotten provisional approval, pending a correction in the filings....or that they could have just persuaded the regulator for a break to amend the filings. Its was a series of bad circumstances.

And Howard didn't really "allow" Chuck to take the documents home, Chuck should have the same level of authority as Howard. And Chucks mental illness hasn't affected the quality of his work, in fact, he has brought great ideas to the table. Given Chucks fastidious and rule-following nature, if I were Howard, or anyone else I would have thought Chuck would keep those files pretty secure in his house.

We didn't watch Lance and Jimmy for several hours, of course.

I'll let you have the last word.

No, we didn't. So, it seems a huge, huge stretch to think that he would have been watching whatever Jimmy was doing from across the room, for enough time to determine he was doctoring specific legal documents.

Edited April 12, 2016 by RCharter

Bannon · April 12, 2016

Oh, that is a really good point about the injury and the tape. Now, if he erases it, it really would be suspicious.

Although, I don't know if it will all matter, but it might.

Oh, I'm not making predictions. I'm just saying that the writers, to me, have left open a great many plausible outcomes.

RCharter · April 12, 2016

My guess is that Lance has been told to call his boss immediately when a person in the shop gets injured, and carted off to the hospital by ambulance. The first thing the boss says is "Make sure the tape isn't erased". Now we are in the realm of Lance's competency, and in a world where bank robbers have been known to leave their driver's license hehind, when they leave the bank, I don't think any assumption can be made with regard to that. If you disagree with that as well, that's ok, too.

I don't think its clear one way or the other. If you're a national chain like Kinko's, yes, you probably have a protocol in place for injuries because you're a national chain and you've thought through these things, because you've had multiple people sue your company for slip/fall injuries. A smaller or independent copy shop, the owner may not have thought through these things, or perhaps the owner has. The camera seemed trained on the counter area, so it might have been a measure meant to deal with theft....which may have been what the owner was more concerned about so there isn't a protocol in place for an injury, but there is a protocol for if the place gets robbed. 24 hour businesses are often the target for thieves, especially those with a small amount of staff and a cash drawer.

But of course, this is assuming that Lance doesn't immediately go to the back and erase that tape to save his butt...and then calls his boss.

Ultimately, I think it could go either way.

Bannon · April 12, 2016

But is Howard incompetent? He has run HHM just fine without Chuck. They lost Mesa Verde, but were a giant law firm before and after Mesa Verde. I don't think Howard is any brilliant legal scholar, but incompetent.....I don't see that.

This looks like a simple transposition error.....which, as Sherry67 pointed out, happens all the time at law firms. That it cost the client is unfortunate, but I don't think its the first, or the last time there is an error in a filing. Not even the regulators seemed all that freaked out by it, and if Chuck hadn't been a major douche its possible he could have gotten provisional approval, pending a correction in the filings....or that they could have just persuaded the regulator for a break to amend the filings. Its was a series of bad circumstances.

And Howard didn't really "allow" Chuck to take the documents home, Chuck should have the same level of authority as Howard. And Chucks mental illness hasn't affected the quality of his work, in fact, he has brought great ideas to the table. Given Chucks fastidious and rule-following nature, if I were Howard, or anyone else I would have thought Chuck would keep those files pretty secure in his house.

No, we didn't. So, it seems a huge, huge stretch to think that he would have been watching whatever Jimmy was doing from across the room, for enough time to determine he was doctoring specific legal documents.

Howard stupidly abused an associate who brought in an account, out the blue, which has net present value, to HHM, in the millions of dollars. That's really incompetent management.

Letting a mentally ill partner, who has been know to be in an unconscious state, at any time of day, with the door unlocked, bring home critical documents, is a disservice to clients, and the partner without the mental illness has a responsibility to end that practice, up to and including telling the mentall ill partner that he will be reported to the Bar Association if he persists.

Frankly, Howard may have failed Mesa Verde and any other clients, by allowing Chuck to work, without informing the Bar of Chuck's condition, especially when Chuck is not receiving mental health treatment.......

http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/events/professional_responsibility/2014/05/30th-aba-national-forum-on-client-protection/topic_2_combined_session_documents.authcheckdam.pdf

In any case, we don't agree much on what we are seeing in this dramatic work, but different plausible interpretations is usually a sign of good writing. Thanks for the civil disagreement.

Constantinople · April 12, 2016

UO: I'm not blaming Chuck for how Jimmy turned out. I don't recall seeing Chuck around when Jimmy stole money from his father's till. Chuck may have always looked down on Jimmy, but I suspect Chuck was always a bit of a square and Jimmy was always a bit of a rogue. I'm not buying that Jimmy was some angel who turned to the dark side after not getting sufficient approval from his older brother. If anything, I think Jimmy uses Chuck as an excuse for Jimmy's misbehavior.

One thing I find a little troubling about BCS and BB is this unstated assumption that one's family should always go to the mat for you again, and again and again, over and over, no matter how many times you screw up. I liked Jesse as a character, but I really didn't see any reason why he should have been such a f*ck-up in high school that he turned into Captain Cook. And I don't think too many parents would be thrilled if their son used the basement of their late aunt's house as a meth lab and dissolved a giant hole in the floor of the second floor bathroom. For that matter, if Jimmy is old enough to know the Pina Colada song, he's old enough to Grow The F*ck Up and stop blaming others for his own choices. At some point, I can see people giving up on them.

Not that Chuck isn't an ass, but I also find parts of the story just too unrealistic, that I can't get on his case that much.

As some intrepid soul discovered last season, a mail order law school doesn't cut it for the New Mexico bar
Even if it did, I find it impossible to believe that a firm of HHM's pretensions -- for God sake, they trademarked Hamlindigo -- would hire someone who attended a mail order law school. So I find it hard to get mad at Chuck for sabotaging Jimmy since Jimmy would have never been hired in the first place.
I also don't believe a bank would hire a solo practioner who's just starting up her own practice, so I don't think it would take much, if anything, for Chuck & HHM to "steal" Mesa Verde after Kim left the firm.
For that matter, just what field of law is Kim's speciality? When we first meet her, she's making plea deals in high profile criminal cases, then she's working on a commercial fraud case, now it's banking law (and related matters). Some lawyers are generalists, but not usually to that degree when they work at a firm the size of HHM and their career is far enough along they're thinking about a partnership.

TL;DR - I still only care about the Mike part of the episode. At this point, Mike and Saul may as well be different shows.

mattie0808 · April 12, 2016

One thing I find a little troubling about BCS and BB is this unstated assumption that one's family should always go to the mat for you again, and again and again, over and over, no matter how many times you screw up...At some point, I can see people giving up on them.

IMO, I would be fine with Chuck if he *did* give up on Jimmy. It's the constant and often gleeful efforts to ensure Jimmy's failure, no matter what, that make me despise Chuck as far as his brother is concerned. He wants to wash his hands of Jimmy? Fine. He wants to secretly and not-so-secretly undermine and sabotage him in every way he can think of, while lying to Jimmy's face about it (and letting someone else play the bad guy)? He wants to completely dismiss Jimmy taking care of him and his mental illness? He wants to allow a lifetime of jealousies and resentments to rule his every interaction with his brother? Not fine. Chuck has never been interested in "giving up," he wants to personally cause and have a front seat for Jimmy's destruction, all the while complaining that he never thought his own brother would stab him in the back, as if that isn't what Chuck's done for YEARS. :/

Edited April 12, 2016 by mattie0808

RCharter · April 12, 2016

Howard stupidly abused an associate who brought in an account, out the blue, which has net present value, to HHM, in the millions of dollars. That's really incompetent management.

Letting a mentally ill partner, who has been know to be in an unconscious state, at any time of day, with the door unlocked, bring home critical documents, is a disservice to clients, and the partner without the mental illness has a responsibility to end that practice, up to and including telling the mentall ill partner that he will be reported to the Bar Association if he persists.

Frankly, Howard may have failed Mesa Verde and any other clients, by allowing Chuck to work, without informing the Bar of Chuck's condition, especially when Chuck is not receiving mental health treatment.......

http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/events/professional_responsibility/2014/05/30th-aba-national-forum-on-client-protection/topic_2_combined_session_documents.authcheckdam.pdf

In any case, we don't agree much on what we are seeing in this dramatic work, but different plausible interpretations is usually a sign of good writing. Thanks for the civil disagreement.

In Kim's case, she was also "responsible" for the commercial disaster at D&M, which made HHM look terrible, and probably did more damage than an error in transposition. That Howard wouldn't simply forgive what he saw as unethical behavior because she brought in a client doesn't say anything bad about him, in fact, I would argue it would show a greater level of incompetence to set a precedent where associates know that they can do whatever they want as long as they bring in a client....because how far does the next associate push the envelope? To allow her to not suffer any consequences...at all....would have made HHM look like the sort of place where you can get away with Jimmy-esque behavior as long as you bring in money. And that is the sort of thing...pushed to its limits that can take a law firm down. And in Howards case, he simply put her in doc review, he didn't make her clean the toilets with the tooth brush. It was an appropriate punishment for the crime. The millions in billing for Mesa Verde, aren't worth setting a precedent that could lead to the loss of your firm down the line because you've created an ethical climate that is loosey goosey.

I believe that most of the time Chuck has the door locked. Just the same as any other person. Jimmy noted that his key didn't work, so he has used a key to get in. The police had to break in through the back door. There are many attorneys, and other professionals that work with mental illness....they even work from home. And I don't see how Howard could overrule Chuck, as they are both senior partners and there doesn't seem to be a third. I don't think Howard is Chucks boss, and I think attorney's do take work home from the office.

I'm glancing over the PDF you've linked to, and its clear that the mental illness should be reported if it results in a violation of the model rules. I don't see that Chuck's mental illness resulted in a violation of the model rules. He gave his client the best representation possible, and his lack of securing the files wasn't really attributable to his mental illness, and its an error that a person without a mental illness could make. It also seems to establish that the safeguards should be in place that apply to all attorneys, mentally impaired or not, to ensure compliance with the model rules. So instituting a policy that files have to be kept secure if an attorney takes a file home would be appropriate. Not letting anyone take work home....or not letting anyone take work out of the office....would be untenable. Additionally, it is someone with a supervisory role over a specific attorney who has a role in making sure that that particular attorney's mental illness is accommodated. But Howard doesn't really have a supervisory position over Chuck.

And Chuck's mental illness has not really, at all affected the quality of his work or representation of the client, certainly not enough to be in violation of the model rules.

But perhaps there is another part of the file you're referring to? I've only done a quick once over.

Agreed, I enjoy talking about the show.

Umbelina · April 12, 2016

For me, it kind of depends on whether or not you think people can change. I do. I think Jimmy worked his ass off to change, and all to finally get the approval of his brother, who promptly sabotaged him, instead of encouraging him in the pursuit of being a better person. Jimmy, at the very least, just delivered a gigantic case to the firm, loads of money, and was showing promise as a "rainmaker" something that no school can really teach. With control, Jimmy could have been very, very valuable, and he was SO willing to control himself, because he deeply loved his brother. He could have been skillfully used and encouraged to continue in the path he'd obviously been on, all on his own, for years, to study law and pass that bar. No study groups for him, he did it on his own.

Chuck could not STAND that Jimmy might be considered on his level, in his profession, so he fucked his brother over, rather than embracing his success, and by example, helping Jimmy change. It's not as if Jimmy hadn't already shown that he was capable of buckling down, because, he had. Would he have those "slippin' Jimmy" tendencies? Sure, probably, maybe, but with skillful management he would have been a huge asset.

So, watching Chuck do that to Jimmy showed us quite a bit about Chuck's need to be "the good brother." His stories of the past, especially when he confesses his jealousy of his loved younger brother while Chuck "did everything right!" were telling. From there, it's not a huge jump for me to imagine Chuck sabotaging his brother from the day they brought him home from the hospital. Chuck's jealousy of Jimmy came before Jimmy was capable of conning anyone. Meanwhile, as smart as Jimmy is, he never caught on that deep down, his admired and beloved older brother had always been against him.

So, do I think a child is "born bad?" Sometimes. Do I think it's much more likely Chuck fostered that "bad side" of Jimmy, consciously or subconsciously because he was desperately jealous of Jimmy?

I do.

That doesn't mean I blame Chuck entirely, but I do recognize that Chuck, being older, was a huge influence in Jimmy's life. Also, he's a fucking asshole. So, there is that.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Umbelina

Bannon · April 12, 2016

In Kim's case, she was also "responsible" for the commercial disaster at D&M, which made HHM look terrible, and probably did more damage than an error in transposition. That Howard wouldn't simply forgive what he saw as unethical behavior because she brought in a client doesn't say anything bad about him, in fact, I would argue it would show a greater level of incompetence to set a precedent where associates know that they can do whatever they want as long as they bring in a client....because how far does the next associate push the envelope? To allow her to not suffer any consequences...at all....would have made HHM look like the sort of place where you can get away with Jimmy-esque behavior as long as you bring in money. And that is the sort of thing...pushed to its limits that can take a law firm down. And in Howards case, he simply put her in doc review, he didn't make her clean the toilets with the tooth brush. It was an appropriate punishment for the crime. The millions in billing for Mesa Verde, aren't worth setting a precedent that could lead to the loss of your firm down the line because you've created an ethical climate that is loosey goosey.

I believe that most of the time Chuck has the door locked. Just the same as any other person. Jimmy noted that his key didn't work, so he has used a key to get in. The police had to break in through the back door. There are many attorneys, and other professionals that work with mental illness....they even work from home. And I don't see how Howard could overrule Chuck, as they are both senior partners and there doesn't seem to be a third. I don't think Howard is Chucks boss, and I think attorney's do take work home from the office.

I'm glancing over the PDF you've linked to, and its clear that the mental illness should be reported if it results in a violation of the model rules. I don't see that Chuck's mental illness resulted in a violation of the model rules. He gave his client the best representation possible, and his lack of securing the files wasn't really attributable to his mental illness, and its an error that a person without a mental illness could make. It also seems to establish that the safeguards should be in place that apply to all attorneys, mentally impaired or not, to ensure compliance with the model rules. So instituting a policy that files have to be kept secure if an attorney takes a file home would be appropriate. Not letting anyone take work home....or not letting anyone take work out of the office....would be untenable. Additionally, it is someone with a supervisory role over a specific attorney who has a role in making sure that that particular attorney's mental illness is accommodated. But Howard doesn't really have a supervisory position over Chuck.

And Chuck's mental illness has not really, at all affected the quality of his work or representation of the client, certainly not enough to be in violation of the model rules.

But perhaps there is another part of the file you're referring to? I've only done a quick once over.

Agreed, I enjoy talking about the show.

I really disagree (surprise!) with the notion that HHM has suffered any measurable damage because Jimmy made his bosses at D &M mad by running a commercial without their approval. D & M didn't even object to t.v. advertising, per se, they were just (justifiably) furious that Jimmy went behind their backs, fo exactly 1 30 second spot running in Pueblo, Co. D & M has suffered no harm at all, other than putting up with Jimmy trying to get fired by being a jerk. Who cares? Both firms are getting a windfall from Sandpiper. Jimmy's bagpipes nonsense amounts to nothing.

People who deliver millions in revenues are extraordinarily rare. It is the purest idiocy to continue to continue to treat Kim like that, because Jimmy made the partners in another law firm mad for a short while, as that law firm had a cash cow like Sandpiper given to them. This stuff is done for money. Bathroom habits, no matter how aesthetically unpleasant, really aren't all that important.

Chuck yelled to Ernesto "It's open, (inaudiby at a distance) as it always is". The guy is sick, and his sickness is preventing him from treating the security of his clients' documents with the care they deserve, as Jimmy's all too easy fraud demonstrates. If the Mesa Verde CEO were to ever find out, no matter how unlikely (and really, it all hinges on Print Shop Lance geting the evidence of his acceptance of Jimmy's bribe destroyed) , he would be enraged, and rightly so.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Bannon

Knuckles · April 12, 2016

This show has a lot to say about family...and not only the poisonous relationship between Chuck and Jimmy. Watch the guilt-ridden Mike try to make amends to his son's widow, and ensure access to his beloved granddaughter, and see him take on the Salamanca clan, with disastrous results for an innocent bystander. See the twisted evil that is the Salamanca family, with its murderous loyalty. See the empty suit Howard claim that he wanted something different in his life, but joined HMM to please his father. And we still have no backstory on Kim, who glides past any question on her past except for the 10 years in New Mexico...she is not drawn to Jimmy just for his good lucks and charm...like recognizes like.

RCharter · April 12, 2016

I really disagree (surprise!) with the notion that HHM has suffered any measurable damage because Jimmy made his bosses at D &M mad by running a commercial without their approval. D & M didn't even object to t.v. advertising, per se, they were just (justifiably) furious that Jimmy went behind their backs, fo exactly 1 30 second spot running in Pueblo, Co. D & M has suffered no harm at all, other than putting up with Jimmy trying to get fired by being a jerk. Who cares? Both firms are getting a windfall from Sandpiper. Jimmy's bagpipes nonsense amounts to nothing.

People who deliver millions in revenues are extraordinarily rare. It is the purest idiocy to continue to continue to treat Kim like that, because Jimmy made the partners in another law firm mad for a short while, as that law firm had a cash cow like Sandpiper given to them. This stuff is done for money. Bathroom habits, no matter how aesthetically unpleasant, really aren't all that important.

Chuck yelled to Ernesto "It's open, (inaudiby at a distance) as it always is". The guy is sick, and his sickness is preventing him from treating the security of his clients' documents with the care they deserve, as Jimmy's all too easy fraud demonstrates. If the Mesa Verde CEO were to ever find out, no matter how unlikely (and really, it all hinges on Print Shop Lance geting the evidence of his acceptance of Jimmy's bribe destroyed) , he would be enraged, and rightly so.

Because law firms, especially the sort of big firms that HHM and D&M are operate in a small circle. And the same way HHM referred Sandpiper to D&M, they would expect the same one day from them if they had a case that they couldn't handle. So, D&M now has a bad taste in their mouth about HHM, and they are going to share that bad taste on the golf course, or at dinner, with other partners, from other firms. Most especially since Howard recommended Jimmy to them. It starts to look a little like they were just given some rotten goods...which Howard should have known about and warned them about. So yes, I think it hurts HHM's reputation more than an error in transposition. Sure, Mesa Verde will never go back to HHM, but their business is banking, not law, so once they get their show on the road, it will probably not be something that they are always talking about. Nor will they always be talking to attorneys. And, even in retrospect, I think they would say "yeah, they made a typo, and it sucked." But when you lay a bad egg on someone, the way D&M has to think of Howard's recommendation of Jimmy, that lives on for a while. That you referred an attorney who went off on his own and aired a commercial without really getting approval from anyone is not a good look. In a small world....where reputation means so much.....I think the disaster that was Jimmy at D&M hurts more than a transposition error.

I think you're point of view regarding bringing in business is well understood....in the world of business. Or even a lot of other professions. But because law does rely so heavily on ethics, bringing in a client can't matter more than the appearance that you play fast and loose with ethical rules as long as someone is bringing in money. So in this context, not letting Kim off the hook immediately after bringing in business makes sense, because you don't want it to look like you can get away with anything if you just bring in business. Because, there will be that associate that pushes the envelope just a little too far and you end up getting huge penalties or having to take a hit....and that associate will have thought it was okay because they could bring in some business, or make some money.

A reputation for ethics is one of those things that you can take a lifetime to build and lose in a minute. And its a big part of what a law firm sells, so they have to protect that....especially their reputation within the legal community and to the outside world. This is why D&M was still pissed, in spite of the results. They have a reputation that they want to uphold, and that reputation is vitally important to them....so the want a blue swirl background with words. HHM's reputation is vitally important to them, and the commercial risks that, because they start to look like the sort of place that approves of attorneys that aren't ethical....enough so to refer them to another law firm. Or, that they simply wanted to mess with D&M by giving them this guy who was going to be a loose cannon.

As for "its open, as it always is." I took that to mean that when Chuck knows that Ernesto is coming over, the door is unlocked. Not that it is unlocked all the time. Or that Chuck keeps the door unlocked during the day when he is awake and working. This is not behavior that is out of the ordinary. There are some people who simply don't lock their door, period. But we've seen the police unable to get in during the day, and we've seen Jimmy having to use his key to get in. So Chuck clearly doesn't keep the door unlocked all the time.

Edited April 12, 2016 by RCharter

Umbelina · April 12, 2016

Yeah, the whole "rainmaker" thing I think is very underestimated here, at times anyway.

In a way it kind of reminds me of the IT guys around that same time. The best of the best often did things they weren't supposed to do, because the very nature of being an expert involved curiosity, and pushing the limits. I remember one guy, just a few years before this show is set, who was escorted out of a major (MAJOR!) bank because he hacked into the salary data base. He didn't do anything with it, or tell anyone, but he was curious what everyone's salary was. He was caught, fired, lead out in handcuffs, etc. My boyfriend at the time was his boss, and really liked the guy. He was laughing about it, but sad to lose him. I asked, "what will he do now?" My boyfriend replied, "He'll have another job, probably for more money, by sunset tomorrow, and we'll end up hiring someone who probably did something worse at another company."

They were invaluable at the time, and the tendency to push boundaries and limits were part of why they were so very good at their jobs. That's kind of why I liked the other firm not firing Jimmy, I don't think they would. Sometimes the smartest people are also those that tweak the rules, and bringing in that kind of case, and being so very good with clients is a skill no law school can teach. As evidenced by Chuck's reaction when his client told him he was wrong, and he refused to listen.

That firm handled it the wrong way, giving him a babysitter who was beyond obnoxious, but at least they tried to hold on to Jimmy. It's a little bit like the holocaust kid on Mad Men, "lightening in a bottle." You want those guys working for you, not against you. Chuck was too jealous to even see that value, if anything, he resented it, because Chuck's way was the best way in his narrow little mind. How he could hold himself up as a paragon of morality, and screw Jimmy out of his case is a perfect example of Chuck's warped sense. Sure, he said it was because he didn't trust him, but why? What had Jimmy done lately? Cared for him, took his shit, stood up for him, continued to admire him, and put his nose to the grindstone to become a lawyer, simply to make Chuck proud.

As for the whole mail order law thing, I just have to let it go. BCS was stuck with it from a joke they wanted on BB, "Go Land Crabs!" I've decided that they University of Samoa is just one of those things I have to let slide, and frankly, it really doesn't bother me a bit. ;~)

Edited April 12, 2016 by Umbelina

peeayebee · April 12, 2016

"Annoying as hell"? Really? As one of the people typing those comments that annoyed you, I must ask -- why did you read them if they annoyed you? Just skip over them.

We were live chatting. I would assume that the BCS threads had not been quite busy or active enough in the past to warrant a separate live chat thread (like what exists on TWD's forum) from the episode thread, but maybe for the finale and Season 3 we can start doing a separate live chat thread. We've been live chatting in the episode threads for BCS for quite a while at this point (weeks and weeks, if not the whole season).

I guess I hadn't noticed live chatting here before, or maybe I skipped over it previously. If it's allowed, that's cool. I just thought it was only for live-event threads. I'm probably confusing things with TWOP.

I've seen you say you don't want any talk of future episode previews in the threads. You don't want a lot of BB talk in the threads, either. You don't want us to comment in the episode thread while the episode is airing. We're all willing to abide by whatever rules are set forth by the mods (I'm a mod myself, on another website, so I understand how that goes), so it's the mods who should step in and set the rules for us. I am fine with whatever they set forth.

Me too. I stated my opinions but hope I didn't repeat myself. I try not to.

Bannon · April 12, 2016

Because law firms, especially the sort of big firms that HHM and D&M are operate in a small circle. And the same way HHM referred Sandpiper to D&M, they would expect the same one day from them if they had a case that they couldn't handle. So, D&M now has a bad taste in their mouth about HHM, and they are going to share that bad taste on the golf course, or at dinner, with other partners, from other firms. Most especially since Howard recommended Jimmy to them. It starts to look a little like they were just given some rotten goods...which Howard should have known about and warned them about. So yes, I think it hurts HHM's reputation more than an error in transposition. Sure, Mesa Verde will never go back to HHM, but their business is banking, not law, so once they get their show on the road, it will probably not be something that they are always talking about. Nor will they always be talking to attorneys. And, even in retrospect, I think they would say "yeah, they made a typo, and it sucked." But when you lay a bad egg on someone, the way D&M has to think of Howard's recommendation of Jimmy, that lives on for a while. That you referred an attorney who went off on his own and aired a commercial without really getting approval from anyone is not a good look. In a small world....where reputation means so much.....I think the disaster that was Jimmy at D&M hurts more than a transposition error.

I think you're point of view regarding bringing in business is well understood....in the world of business. Or even a lot of other professions. But because law does rely so heavily on ethics, bringing in a client can't matter more than the appearance that you play fast and loose with ethical rules as long as someone is bringing in money. So in this context, not letting Kim off the hook immediately after bringing in business makes sense, because you don't want it to look like you can get away with anything if you just bring in business. Because, there will be that associate that pushes the envelope just a little too far and you end up getting huge penalties or having to take a hit....and that associate will have thought it was okay because they could bring in some business, or make some money.

A reputation for ethics is one of those things that you can take a lifetime to build and lose in a minute. And its a big part of what a law firm sells, so they have to protect that....especially their reputation within the legal community and to the outside world. This is why D&M was still pissed, in spite of the results. They have a reputation that they want to uphold, and that reputation is vitally important to them....so the want a blue swirl background with words. HHM's reputation is vitally important to them, and the commercial risks that, because they start to look like the sort of place that approves of attorneys that aren't ethical....enough so to refer them to another law firm. Or, that they simply wanted to mess with D&M by giving them this guy who was going to be a loose cannon.

As for "its open, as it always is." I took that to mean that when Chuck knows that Ernesto is coming over, the door is unlocked. Not that it is unlocked all the time. Or that Chuck keeps the door unlocked during the day when he is awake and working. This is not behavior that is out of the ordinary. There are some people who simply don't lock their door, period. But we've seen the police unable to get in during the day, and we've seen Jimmy having to use his key to get in. So Chuck clearly doesn't keep the door unlocked all the time.

Well, again, we entirely disagree. So be it.

shapeshifter · April 12, 2016

Since what was to be erased also showed Lance taking the bribe and he'd want to minimize what was missing from the tape, I think it'd be a priority for him to do it and it wouldn't have taken long.

But again, Chuck has to actually get the tape before it is automatically erased in 12 hours from the bribe. Or someone has to get the tape. The bribe happened after Ernie was there, so Ernie doesn't really even know about the tape. The cops could possibly want it, but why? As far as they know its just some crazy guy that was screaming at an employee about "knowing about something" that happened days ago....even if the cops wanted to know what happened, that tape is destroyed, and Chuck doesn't know about the bribe. The cops wouldn't really want the tape to know what happened, since there were 3 other people that saw what happened.

Perhaps Lance's boss keeps the tape for a potential civil action brought by Chuck, or perhaps Lance simply admits to someone that he took a bribe out of guilt. This all took place after Kim/Jimmy were in bed, so lets say it took place around 11pm......by 11am someone would have to rescue that tape from being taped back over. So maybe if Lance's manager/boss/supervisor wanted to retain the tape by 11am, or was even in by then. I could see the copy center wanting to have video evidence that their employee did nothing wrong and that they have no liability for Chucks injury. And this is all assuming that Lance doesn't immediately hustle back there to mess with the tape to cover his own butt.

I am now feeling so anxious about this TapeGate. LOL.

Umbelina · April 12, 2016

If I were Lance, that tape would be trashed. If his boss sees him taking a bribe, or anyone does, he could be stuck. Why should Lance care more about his boss' liability claim with Chuck's injury than his own butt?

shapeshifter · April 12, 2016

If I were Lance, that tape would be trashed. If his boss sees him taking a bribe, or anyone does, he could be stuck. Why should Lance care more about his boss' liability claim with Chuck's injury than his own butt?

A lot of old L&O shows--filmed in 2002 or earlier--had the detectives ask for videos that were damaged or failed to record during the robbery/muder/rape/whathaveyou. Now I'm wondering if they were damaged or destroyed because the employee on duty was taking bribes/having sex/snorting coke/etc.

Bryce Lynch · April 12, 2016

I don't think this would really be any sort of case for disbarment or anything else. Having an exacto knife, and going to a copy place with some documents doesn't sound anywhere near what you would need to disbar someone. I truly think that Chuck was grasping at straws, and no matter how many people he went to with that story, the response would always be the same "you were typing those documents, and its far, far, far more likely that you simply transposed some numbers than your brother is part of some conspiracy theory." I don't even think its enough for a preponderance of the evidence standard, because a mis-typing the number is far, far more likely. Its possible that Chuck would have tried to find the originals in a trash somewhere, but I can't possibly see how.

And no matter what, Mesa Verde isn't going back to HHM. Just goes to show how deep Chuck's resentment runs.

I was forgetting that Jimmy had gone back and taken the doctored copies and returned the original, correct ones to Chuck's house.

I think the altered documents would be the missing link. If Chuck had those, I think he would at least have a preponderance of the evidence case against Jimmy. Without them, there is no proof that any changes were made or that any 1216 documents ever existed, so it would seem like Chuck was just making a delusional excuse for screwing up his paperwork

I think some people mentioned that Jimmy's prints would be all over the original (1261) documents, but didn't Chuck turn those over to Kim?

Edited April 13, 2016 by Bryce Lynch

Bannon · April 12, 2016

If I were Lance, that tape would be trashed. If his boss sees him taking a bribe, or anyone does, he could be stuck. Why should Lance care more about his boss' liability claim with Chuck's injury than his own butt?

If you were Lance, it would mean Lance wasn't a dimwit. We have no idea whther Lance is a dimwit, and we live in a world where, as I noted above, dimwits leave behind their IDs when they rob banks. A guy in Lance's shop just hit his head on the counter, and has been knocked unconscious. We already know that Lance isn't bright enough to pick up the phone and dial 911 (I don't find it credible that Ernesto woud delay too long), so I don't think it crazy to think that in the panic, Lance may temporarily forget abut the need to destroy the tape, and will call his boss, who will be down in a flash to review the tape. Jimmy, of course, will be torn between the need to see the tape erased, and his brother's life in peril. He may try to remind Lance before heading to the hospital, and Lance may begin to freak out completely. All sorts of plausible outcomes are available. What I love about this show, and Gilligans other masterpiece, is how well the writers show how random chance plays a huge role in events.

Umbelina · April 12, 2016

True, but sometimes even dimwits have the sense to cover their own asses. I mean, Chuck's injury would be disturbing, but I doubt he's so quickly forgotten the wad in his pocket either. ;)

I think it could go either way there...

Edited April 12, 2016 by Umbelina

scenario · April 12, 2016

There are some things that you have to let slide for the value of the story. If you force writers to research every little detail, it would take months to write one script. I put Jimmy's mail order school and Kim legal specialty in that category. Stuff you let slide for the sake of the plot. Its always a fine line. You have to let some things slide or the show gets boring but if you let too much slide it can make the show too unbelievable.

Whether or not the tape with Jimmy bribing the clerk gets erased depends on the sneakiness of the clerk. I assume that there is a fairly significant time between when Jimmy talks to the clerk and when Chuck show up. I also assume that the tape machine is a simple cheap system with real tape and no time markers. If the clerk is smart, he rewinds the tape to just before Jimmy came in and when there is no one in the store and he is out of frame. Time how long it takes until Jimmy leaves and no one is in the store and he is out of frame. Start the tape recording and walk out front and get in the frame. Walk back out and stop the recording. In the recording, you see an empty store for 5 minutes or so with a little tape artifact at the beginning and end of the edit on a tape that has been taped over and over again for months, maybe years.

The only part of the tape that the manager is going to look at will be the accident. They won't notice the small edit. It's unlikely that there is ever going to be a court case and even if there is there is no proof that there was anything edited on the tape. The FBI with their high tech equipment isn't going to get involved in the case.

Chuck didn't cause Jimmy's behavior but he sure provoked it. When Jimmy got his law degree, Chuck could have done two things. Say congratulations you're hired and put him in document review for a few years. Jimmy would have quit within a month. Or he could have said congratulations and gave or loaned him a few bucks to set up his new shop and washed his hands of him. Instead he tried to control Jimmy's life for him. I get the feeling that Chuck has had some degree of mental illness (perhaps not an illness but he was not neurotypical) for many years. It allowed him the hyper focus to be a great lawyer but it blunted his interpersonal skills so much that he was only marginally functional in social situations.

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