S11.E18: Hell's Angel

[Tara Ariano]

Lucifer takes a trip home and tries to assert himself into heaven. Meanwhile, Crowley tells Sam and Dean he has a way to take down Amara.

[catrox14]

[Demented Daisy]

At this point, I don't see how they can continue to avoid God in the SPN universe.  They've built it up way, way, way too much.  TPTB have put themselves into a position that, if He doesn't defend and protect the entirety of existence, how can He be any better than any of the evil that has threatened humanity?

 

I'm really starting to worry about Castiel.  I was hoping he'd be back by the end of this episode.  :-(

[catrox14]

UM WHAT THE FUCK. 

 

Gross stereotypical opening of a Middle Eastern location. Sigh.

 

3 bitches and one whore dropped. Must be a Buck Leming episode

 

Sorry but Emily Swallow continues to not impress me in the least as Amara.  Rowena would have been one awesome Amara.

 

Lucifer was NOT God's first son. That was Michael!

Holy shit. How do they make a mistake like that? It was the entire premise of the s4 and s5 arc.  The only logical explanation is that she doesn't know Michael exists. That's the only acceptable reason for that line. I'm going to say that Michael gets involved in some way. I HOPE

 

I knew Rowena wasn't dead.  I knew she would ally with Amara.

 

I knew Dean would rescue Cas.

 

But seriously Sam WTF YOU just called Castiel, you saved your fucking life repeatedly...an IT? What the hell?

 

And Cas seems to have retreated to his s7 in the clinic self :( . That was kind of sad. 

 

"So we just let Cas make his own choice"

"Yeah, I mean I guess"

"Good plan"

"Yeah"

"Okay well let's find that idiot and bring him home".  Oh Dean. That made me tear up. He wants his Cas back. /heart eyes

[7kstar]

IA they need to bring in God.  The first born line totally threw me into WTF?

 

Glad that Amara wasn't fooled by Rowena.  I'm really afraid they've set it up way too much and it will be a real big let down.  I'm hope I'm wrong.

 

Not sure how I feel yet, will have to wait until after contest this weekend to watch again.

 

Sam's line about Cas...seemed way out of character.  Glad the brother's agreed at the end.

 

Had a few nice surprises but some slow and weak moments too.  I just hope the solution doesn't feel out of left field again.

[Binns]

Dean wants his Cas back so badly!!

I can't figure out what is going on with Cas...is he just completely retreating into a safe space (aw, Dean's kitchen) and nonfunctional or did Lucifer do something to him? I kind of thought he would expel Lucifer when he was working on killing the guys.

Rowena made a bit of a misstep there, underestimating Amara. I thought maybe she was double crossing the guys and planning on stealing the horn and bringing it to Amara. But seems she is just dim. I like her so happy to see her back.

[catrox14]

 

Rowena made a bit of a misstep there, underestimating Amara. I thought maybe she was double crossing the guys and planning on stealing the horn and bringing it to Amara. But seems she is just dim. I like her so happy to see her back.

 

I don't think Rowena is dim, as much as she has hubris. She's used to being able to get women to come to her way of thinking with the whole "sisterhood" thing. She just underestimated that God's sister gives a shit about females anymore than she gives a shit about males. She doesn't care about humanity at all IMO. She just wants to make a point to her brother.

 

IA they need to bring in God.  The first born line totally threw me into WTF?

 

Now that you have invoked "first born" I'm going to give Buck Leming too much credit that it wasn't a mistak.

 

That would tie it back to "First Born" when Dean first took on the Mark and maybe Dean and Michael will have a role since she seems to think Lucifer was the First Born. I'm hanging my hat on her just plain being uninformed about Michael. If I don't, I'll throw the remote, the pillow, the empty wine bottle at my TV

[Frost]

I'm not sure what to think about this episode.  I was never a Rowena fan so wasn't happy to see her miraculous comeback.  I also didn't like Lucifer strolling into Heaven and the angels basically caving out of fear.  What happened to the warrior angels?  I thought Lucifer was interested in using Dean as bait, is that why he tried to kill him?  To draw Amara in?  There didn't seem any connection between Amara and Dean at all this episode. 

Edited April 7, 2016 by Frost

[catrox14]

 

here didn't seem any connection between Amara and Dean at all this episode.

 

I can't decide about that. I thought for a minute that Amara was going to use Cas to get to Dean. I still think that might happen. 

 

Now that Rowena is back she could summon Michael to the interim cage..and PLEASE Let it be Matt Cohen.  Or Dean could offer himself up as the Michael Sword to fight her and I would be fully on board with Jensen playing Michael...FINALLY. I

Edited April 7, 2016 by catrox14

[Linderhill]

I'm another that was never really a Rowena fan.  Yes, Ruthie is a lovely woman but Rowena .... eh.  And then there's Emily Swallow.  She didn't impress me in The Mentalist and she hasn't impressed me here at all.

 

Its funny that the women characters (Sheriffs Jody and Donna) that I actually like are limited to once a season appearance.  No, get subjected to the characters I'm not particularly fond over and over.

 

The boys and Misha and Mark continue to impress.

[Advance35]

The boys and Misha and Mark continue to impress.

 

 

They've really done amazing work through the years and continue to do so.    I think Misha's Lucifer get's better and better overtime I see him.  I thought I read an interview where Misha said Mark P advised him that Lucifer wants to have sex with everyone and that's why Mark played him with a slimey flirtation, then this episode I nearly doubled over laughing when we saw Casifer STRADDLE that poor angel in heaven.

 

Mark Sheppard's Crowley is always welcome but I agree with those that said they were fine with Rowena being gone for good.

 

Jensen and Jared were awesome as always.   Dean especially, was heartbreaking.    And I agree with whomever upthread said they are beginning to worry about Castiel's fate.

[catrox14]

 

I can't figure out what is going on with Cas...is he just completely retreating into a safe space (aw, Dean's kitchen)

 

 

Oh wow. I didn't connect that the kitchen was his safe space.  Dawww

[Ferniesfreckles]

Glad to see Rowena and her flawless eye make-up again.

Ugh, somebody please kill me: I actually enjoyed the scenes of Casifer up in heaven. Everybody was scared shitless of him. Hehehe.

I liked the episode overall. It was fraught with tension.

I also liked the beginning of the episode very much. I wish lots of episodes would open in these far-flung, mysterious places with interesting people from other countries. It would give the show an air or mystery and provide some global perspective.

(I might be reaching with that last one

Edited April 7, 2016 by Ferniesfreckles

[catrox14]

I just have to say. Dean yelling "Castiel, show yourself" was a direct call back to Pamela saying that.  And I friggin LOVE hearing Dean say Cas' full name. It just sounds beautiful.  He never does that and it just seemed really important.  Man I did love Jensen in all of that. It was again, barely contained desperation. 

 

Sam was all over the map in this episode. I don't what was up with him. but I do love to hear Sam Latinate...whew.....

 

I just can't get over him calling Cas an "IT" that's...damn. 

[Wynne88]

Sam used his 'There was a key' hand gesture from the French Mistake when he was pointing to Rowena's message to Fergus. I had to laugh.

[ZennyKenny]

I audibly squee'd when I heard Rowena's voice! I'm so happy that she's not dead! :)

 

I really enjoyed this episode. Lots of twists, lots of tension. Amara still has this eternal "Alice lost in Wonderland" sort of look on her face that makes it difficult for me to accept her as a villain. But I think that "neutral" is an interesting take on the season's big bad, as opposed to the usual "evil".

 

The only thing that confused me was her appearance at the end. When Lucifer started killing the boys and she suddenly showed up, I said "Oh yeah! You can't mess with Dean or Amara will show up." But then she specified that she had tracked Rowena there. I would have thought that she could just sense when Dean was being harmed.

[catrox14]

So if the Darkness smoke was cruising around the halls of Heaven...was she able to get into the Heavenly pods?? 

[catrox14]

So I didn't notice but AKF (Always Keep Fighting) is on the building. It's an nice homage to Always Keep Fighting but I'm not sure what I think about it being overtly referenced IN the show.  I would feel just as weird if it was #YANA...

 

 

Claudia #akf ‏@swissmom8873

Here is a picture of tonight's homage to #akf on #Supernatural so awesome @jarpad and @JensenAckles

 

[SueB]

Excellent episode. Lot to absorb. I've very worried about Cas. More after a rewatch.

[placate]

Is this the first episode that showed some place outside of the US?  I always wondered why old gods and mythological creatures from all over the world appeared in the US and the brothers only got cases within the country.  I've read some of the books and I know that Bobby went to Japan for a little bit, but I don't recall any international location being shown on the show.

 

Can someone also tell me why there is going to be two weeks without Supernatural?  I know the next episode is monster of the week stuff, but I'm kinda irritated this season with March madness and this random two week skip.

[Bessie]

I thought Sam was talking about Cas's vessel when he said "it" and not Cas himself. Actually, I thought that exchange between Dean and Sam was the pivotal moment in this episode. Dean wants to save Cas by shoving Lucifer into some other vessel. And who's going to be that vessel? Dean would never suggest that they use an innocent to save Cas, which means it's either going to be Sam or Dean.

And Dean being Dean it sure as hell isn't going to be Sam. So I'm thinking if Dean truly believes the only way to save Cas is finding Lucifer another vessel, he's also thinking that vessel will have to be him.

[cryptaknight]

Yeah, Sam said "It's a strong vessel," so I don't think he meant to call Cas 'it' so much as the meatsuit. But it's not really a meatsuit with Cas, so I'd still be pretty concerned about any damage Cas's body suffers.

 

Dean's facial expressions and his clear desperation were heartbreaking this week. Killed me dead. I think towards the end, Cas was getting shaken out of his complacency (he was acting like he'd been eating turducken sandwiches), but then Amara showed up.

 

If they got Lucifer out of the cage, can they get Michael out of the cage? Is he still inside Adam? Who is "God's chosen" that can wield the hand of God against Amara, since it's clearly not Lucifer? 

[MYFAKETVBOYFRIEND]

 Dean truly believes the only way to save Cas is finding Lucifer another vessel, he's also thinking that vessel will have to be him.

I'm getting that feeling also and it doesn't make me happy at all.  (I am not thrilled with the idea of Jensen "doing" Pellegrino especially right after Misha, been there done that )I am hoping if it goes that way Sam will say screw that deal we made that we respect each others choices-you're not doing it. I hope its not necessary now that Rowena's back-because she can get him back into the cage. Maybe Dean threatening to do it will force Cas to come to his senses and leave Luci??

 

Regarding respecting choices-as soon as they agree on that Dean says lets go get Cas-so I guess that didn't last long or did I misunderstand?

[Demented Daisy]

Is this the first episode that showed some place outside of the US?  I always wondered why old gods and mythological creatures from all over the world appeared in the US and the brothers only got cases within the country.  I've read some of the books and I know that Bobby went to Japan for a little bit, but I don't recall any international location being shown on the show.

 

In the S6 episode Weekend at Bobby's, Sam and Dean went to Scotland to dig up Crowley's bones.

[Binns]

Sam used his 'There was a key' hand gesture from the French Mistake when he was pointing to Rowena's message to Fergus. I had to laugh.

I KNOW!!! I have to wonder if that was a tongue in cheek intentional gesture. I hope so bc it was hilarious.

I thought Sam was talking about Cas's vessel when he said "it" and not Cas himself. Actually, I thought that exchange between Dean and Sam was the pivotal moment in this episode. Dean wants to save Cas by shoving Lucifer into some other vessel. And who's going to be that vessel? Dean would never suggest that they use an innocent to save Cas, which means it's either going to be Sam or Dean.

And Dean being Dean it sure as hell isn't going to be Sam. So I'm thinking if Dean truly believes the only way to save Cas is finding Lucifer another vessel, he's also thinking that vessel will have to be him.

I agree with all of this. I thought he was talking about the vessel as well, not Cas.

Is this the first episode that showed some place outside of the US? I always wondered why old gods and mythological creatures from all over the world appeared in the US and the brothers only got cases within the country. I've read some of the books and I know that Bobby went to Japan for a little bit, but I don't recall any international location being shown on the show.

They did go to Scotland once for Crowley's bones. In my head, they don't travel out of the lower 48 because of Dean's fear of flying.

[Binns]

If they got Lucifer out of the cage, can they get Michael out of the cage? Is he still inside Adam? Who is "God's chosen" that can wield the hand of God against Amara, since it's clearly not Lucifer?

Ooh, maybe it's Chuck? I am leaning towards him NOT being God anymore simply because they keep joking about at cons and I smell misdirection.

So I didn't notice but AKF (Always Keep Fighting) is on the building. It's an nice homage to Always Keep Fighting but I'm not sure what I think about it being overtly referenced IN the show. I would feel just as weird if it was #YANA...

Jim Michaels said no...

https://twitter.com/thejimmichaels/status/717973998978490368

[poppy-]

What the heck was that? Oh my goodness. Last week was so good.   

 

Remember when angels were scary and mysterious?  Now we have Mark Pellegrino and Misha Collins and Mark Sheppard together ......in the kitchen set.... as the angel and demon fight...... why? So much NO.

[Bessie]

I'm getting that feeling also and it doesn't make me happy at all.  (I am not thrilled with the idea of Jensen "doing" Pellegrino especially right after Misha, been there done that )I am hoping if it goes that way Sam will say screw that deal we made that we respect each others choices-you're not doing it. I hope its not necessary now that Rowena's back-because she can get him back into the cage. Maybe Dean threatening to do it will force Cas to come to his senses and leave Luci??

 

Regarding respecting choices-as soon as they agree on that Dean says lets go get Cas-so I guess that didn't last long or did I misunderstand?

I don't think you misunderstood. I can't remember Sam's reaction to Dean saying that so I don't know what his feelings are about it. There's no doubt in my mind that Sam will not be onboard with Dean as a vessel for lucifer just to save Cas. But if Dean takes on lucifer as some sort of larger plan to defeat Amara, then he might grudgingly go along with it.

Ackles would likely do a great Lucifer. I think he'd go beyond mimicking Pelligrino and put his own spin on the character, so that's not my issue. I just hate the thought of Dean being tortured by Lucifer and Sam being tortured by the reality of Dean being locked up in the cage with lucifer all because of Cas's horrific decision-making abilities. If Lucifer is needed to stop Amara, I'd still hate it, but not as much as if the boys have to go through all that suffering to save Cas from himself.

[Primetimer]

I've been around since Biblical times, and these guys toss me around like a Kleenex?

Read the story

[catrox14]

Ooh, maybe it's Chuck? I am leaning towards him NOT being God anymore simply because they keep joking about at cons and I smell misdirection.

Jim Michaels said no...

https://twitter.com/thejimmichaels/status/717973998978490368

 

That picture is literally a screengrab from the episode. I rewound that scene it to make sure it was not photoshopped and it's not.  It's there in the episode. On screen. 

 

The VFX Supervisor Adam confirmed it on Twitter.

 

Adam W. Squee! ‏@adamwvfx

@swissmom8873 Wonder if @jarpad will clock that :-D

[Aeryn13]

God`s Chosen? Gee, I wonder who that could be. Pfft. That`s like back when the episode synposis for Trial and Error came out and it stated that only one could do the trials and everyone already immediately knew it was gonna be Sam, without having seen the episode.

 

Not that the Hand didn`t appear to be working just fine. Just not on Amara. And why do these people think it would? Why did Lucifer think it would? He said himself she was equal to God in power. God`s hands are a thing God touched, I touch my jacket everyday. That does not give it the power to kill me. And it does not give it the power to kill other people "equal in power" to me. 

 

Lucifer is the first born now? The other archangels didn`t even exist if you go by this episode and the way Amara and Lucifer talked.

 

We have an episode with Amara but you wouldn`t even know Dean and her were supposed to have a bond from watching it. Instead she gets this out-of-nowhere connection with Rowena? Of course, Lucifer also doesn`t see any worth anymore in keeping Dean around, even as bait. No wonder this mytharc connection has been severed. It`s still apparently in place though to keep Dean as a bystander.   

 

Cas is like the worst quitter ever here. Presumably he said yes because he believed Lucifer could handle Amara. But in this episode he could give less of a crap about anything. Dean is worried about him but Cas could care less really.  

 

It wasn`t barf-worthy like last episode but is nothing happening with Dean this entire Season? Sam and Cas and even Crowley had episodes now. Still waiting for a Dean-one. 

[catrox14]

 

I thought Sam was talking about Cas's vessel when he said "it" and not Cas himself. Actually, I thought that exchange between Dean and Sam was the pivotal moment in this episode. Dean wants to save Cas by shoving Lucifer into some other vessel. And who's going to be that vessel? Dean would never suggest that they use an innocent to save Cas, which means it's either going to be Sam or Dean.

 

Sam was talking about Cas' vessel but I think it came out much harsher than perhaps was intended because of Jared's acting choices. I thought Sam was being really cold here. Like there was little concern for Cas in his voice and his demeanor, which runs counter to every time Sam said 'Don't worry we'll get him back". And he also had this weird smile which I found off putting.

 

Sam pretty much knows that Cas is his own vessel now so yes it would be hurting Cas. Good on Dean for recognizing that fact. "This is Cas" their brother and best friend. He's not an "other" as far as Dean is concerned so I think that really bothered him that after everything Sam seemed to be reducing Cas to "it".  Sure the mission is at hand but that WAS kind of cold IMO. I get why Dean was upset. I was upset.  Maybe subconsciously, Dean wondered if Sam thought Dean was an "it" when he was demon!Dean.  Dean can view himself as "That thing" all he likes but I think it would be different if he thought Sam viewed him that way. But that's just my little headcanon.  And I do wonder if Dean is remembering that Sam was more than willing to un-demon Dean to save him but here he seems willing to let Cas be hurt to save the world. I dunno..just thoughts on that.

 

A lot of Sam's behavior for the past several episodes has been pinging my "rotten in Denmark" perspective.

 

I've thought Sam has been off since The Vessel. I thought it was strange that he was so specific in asking Dean what he saw at the end of the Vessel. I figured it was just curious questions which made sense but then in almost every episode after that 

 

The Vessel: "What did you do on the boat" . "Nothing, I was just a witness".

Safe House : "What did you see in the house" . "You, dead". "That's oddly comforting"

Red Meat : "What did you do when you thought I was dead" "I knew you were alive"

Hell's Angel: "Cas is the strongest vessel. He has the right to make that choice to stay.

 

I can't help but feel like there is a specific point to Sam's questions here.

 

And even at the end of this episode...I don't think Sam was really on board the 'bring that idiot home" train. I think this is gonna turn into a more serious battle between Sam and Dean over saving Cas vs saving the world.  And one really shitty thought I had was that maybe Sam is scared that if Cas let's go of Lucifer, Lucifer will make a beeline for Sam and he won't be able to say no again. But that is like the harshest reading of that and I don't really believe it.

 

I have wondered, if something didn't happen to Sam when Lucifer was poking around in his soul before Cas stopped him. Again not sure..but it's pinging my "rotten in Denmark" meter but hard.

[catrox14]

 

We have an episode with Amara but you wouldn`t even know Dean and her were supposed to have a bond from watching it. Instead she gets this out-of-nowhere connection with Rowena?

 

Heh, Maybe this is an attempt to address that Amara seemed attached to Dean because he set her free yet Dean didnt' really set her free at all. But I'm sure it's not.

 

As to Lucifer being the First Born son of God...I'm willing to give a YUUUUGE benefit of doubt that is a misdirect. Because I just flat out refuse to believe the show would make that kind of mistake...and I have to believe it's not an LOL canon re-write to make Lucifer older and more powerful than Michael.

 

My Little Hat of Hope is hanging on Dean's designation as the Michael Sword and the Righteous Man will finally have a purpose. That he'll either be Michael's vessel and Jensen gets to play Michael against Mark Pellegrino's Lucifer. OR having been the Chosen Michael Vessel or the Righteous Man and had the handprint of an angel on his left shoulder will be the key to making the Hands of God work and he defeats Amara himself.

[Omegamom]

My! I liked it. Lots of twisty turny stuff.

Rowena's back. Yay! Rowena thinking she can manipulate Amara until Amara's "Hear me!" tantrum scares the snot out of her, heh. (I really did expect her to be back, but as a demon in hell.)

Misha's Lucifer gets better and better.

My question is, did they have a spell to stuff Lucifer back in the Cage? If so, why didn't they use it as soon as he made it obvious he wouldn't play along?

Another Hand of God used up. Lucifer is sure full of himself, isn't he? Took God and four archangels to do her the first time...so he should know he couldn't do it by himself. Must have spent an eternity building himself up in his own mind to think he could do it all on his lonesome.

"First born"?! Nun-uh.

Cas is really not himself. He grinned, too, at one point, which actually bothered me. On the one hand, he's muted and distant and dull, like nothing matters, the next he's grinning like a maniac. Maybe he's had a breakdown?

Poor Dean. He's so worried about Cas! And Sam's "think smart, not think with the heart" really got him.

I also thought Amara was brought there by Dean's pain, and when she said she followed Rowena, I was disappointed. Use that damned bond, writers!

Crowley is letting his ego and humiliation take control -- he should have gone for "deal with Amara first", rather than focusing on Lucifer.

Pellegrino is back! Yay!

All in all, I liked it.

[Commando Cody]

I was glad when they killed Rowena. I was not happy to see her alive again. I thought that bit where she had something sewn into her leg so she would be miraculously brought back to life - broken neck fixed and everything - was way too contrived.  I never liked the character. She needed to stay dead. 

 

Other than that, because it took me out of the episode and to a slightly unhappier place in my mind, I thought it was a good episode. 

[catrox14]

 

I also thought Amara was brought there by Dean's pain, and when she said she followed Rowena, I was disappointed. Use that damned bond, writers!

 

Well, she didn't seem to care when Dean killed himself so, yeah I'm thinking that bond was bullshit or is NOW bullshit. Oh HAI Buck-Leming...I see your LOL SL for Dean per usual. They murder characters and canon and SL. I'm going to start calling the "The Killing Writers"

[DittyDotDot]

Oh boy, I do not like where this is going and I certainly don't like what's happening to Cass.

 

Good to know Rowena made it. Rather contrived how it is she survived, but glad to see her back. I don't know why they even try killing things on this show anymore. 

 

You know, so much of this season has had me thinking of S5, but when Crowley was standing around whining about how Lucifer made him lick the floor, I totally expected Sam and Dean to yell, "Holy crap. We don't care." Then I got sad...

 

Anyhoo, not their best, but kinda met my expectations, too. And just when I was starting to feel optimistic about the show again, too. Sigh.

 

 

Now that you have invoked "first born" I'm going to give Buck Leming too much credit that it wasn't a mistak.

 

That would tie it back to "First Born" when Dean first took on the Mark and maybe Dean and Michael will have a role since she seems to think Lucifer was the First Born. I'm hanging my hat on her just plain being uninformed about Michael. If I don't, I'll throw the remote, the pillow, the empty wine bottle at my TV

 

I kinda looked at Amara calling Lucifer God's "first son" as saying he was God's favorite, not necessarily God's first-born. 

Edited April 7, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Aeryn13]

 

That would tie it back to "First Born" when Dean first took on the Mark and maybe Dean and Michael will have a role since she seems to think Lucifer was the First Born. I'm hanging my hat on her just plain being uninformed about Michael.

 

Back when Death told the story, it was God and ALL the archangels defeating Amara. Now it`s just God and Lucifer. If Amara doesn`t even know who Michael is/was, that would pretty much erase him completely from canon.

 

They focused only on Lucifer and made him God`s "first" and favourite. Previously Sam was tied to Lucifer as his true vessel so I guess this is the connection. Sam will be the new "first and favourite" of God. The Chosen that Dean spoke about here. This line was IMO a set-up for this reveal later.   

[La Tortuga]

Are we sure Amara called Lucifer God's first born? Because I could have sworn I heard her say "favorite son" instead, which I thought of as something the SPN writers might have borrowed from an episode of ​Lucifer.

[catrox14]

 

I kinda looked at Amara calling Lucifer God's "first son" as saying he was God's favorite, not necessarily God's first-born.

 

 

Dialogue from the scene:

 

" As God's favorite, his first son, you may be the one thing in all of creation that he still cares about, the one thing that could finally make him show himself so that I can confront him and he can acknowledge the wrongs he's done me."

 

 

It seems to me if the point with Amara is that Lucifer was God's favorite, why put the "birth order" in the line, when she already said he was God's favorite.  

 

ETA: Amara or (Emily) put the emphasis on " FIRST" son both in speech and with the finger gesture of "1" . Combine that with the previous line about "You and my brother conspired to seal me away for eons"

 

I come back to it being completely purposeful to set up something later. Now whether that is a Michael appearance or destroying the idea of Michael being involved like Aeryn13 suggests is the question or something else, I don't know but I'm taking it literally. YMMV

Edited April 7, 2016 by catrox14

[Binns]

Are we sure Amara called Lucifer God's first born? Because I could have sworn I heard her say "favorite son" instead, which I thought of as something the SPN writers might have borrowed from an episode of ​Lucifer.

That's what I thought, too, but I haven't re-watched.

[catrox14]

Are we sure Amara called Lucifer God's first born? Because I could have sworn I heard her say "favorite son" instead, which I thought of as something the SPN writers might have borrowed from an episode of ​Lucifer.

 

HAHA, sorry I'm thinking it's more likely that the other way around given how much longer SPN Lucifer has existed as a character in SPN since 2009. SPN doesn't need to borrow from anyone on that. Also, everyone is borrowing from the Biblical story of Lucifer in the end.

 

No, SPN had Lucifer as God's favorite until God kicked him out for not bowing down to God's new favorites...the hairless apes (humans).

That's what I thought, too, but I haven't re-watched.

 

See my comment above. That's the actual dialogue

[Ria]

I find it best to just mindlessly watch this show without thinking too much. They've long ago abandoned any sense of a specific rules or abilities. Powers come and go based on the immediate need of the plot.

Rowena is ridiculously powerful. Not only could she release Lucifer from the trap, she can now bring herself back to life, fix her own broken neck, find and heal Amara. It's just absurd.

Crowley can possess a vessel holding not just one angel, but two. I know he's done it before with one angel, when Sam was a vessel, but I'm still not buying this should be possible.

Since when does the holy water ring of fire die? It's held Gabriel and Raphael in addition to Cas. But then the plot needed them held and now it needed Lucifer to get free. So whatever.

I don't see any issue with Sam referring to Cas's vessel as "it". It's just a lifeless vessel Cas is inhabiting. Jimmy is long gone. And Cas and his vessel are not one and the same. Cas is still an angel, and really a beam of light (or celestial intent if heaven has any intent left). He'd still be Cas without the vessel. But then I'm not sure if the show even remembers what angels used to be. Never has an entity been so completely destroyed and diminished as Supernatural's angels.

[DittyDotDot]

It seems to me if the point with Amara is that Lucifer was God's favorite, why put the "birth order" in the line, when she already said he was God's favorite.   I come back to it being completely purposeful to set up something later. Now whether that is a Michael appearance or destroying the idea of Michael being involved like Aeryn13 suggests is the question.

 

That was my point, I don't think she did bring up birth order. She said first son, not first-born son. First son can simply mean one is first in line to inherit his father’s role as head of the family, but does not necessarily mean they were literally born first. I think she was using a turn of phrase to say what Lucifer's status was to God before he disobeyed, not necessarily that he was literally born first. 

 

 

Crowley can possess a vessel holding not just one angel, but two. I know he's done it before with one angel, when Sam was a vessel, but I'm still not buying this should be possible.

 

I was giggling really hard when Crowley smoked out of his meatsuit into Cass. I kept wondering how many things they could cram into a Cass before it would explode. ;)

 

 

Since when does the holy water ring of fire die? It's held Gabriel and Raphael in addition to Cas. But then the plot needed them held and now it needed Lucifer to get free. So whatever.

 

Technically it didn't hold Raphael, though. He caused a storm and I thought Dean and Cass fled leaving Raphael because it wouldn't hold him too long. But, Raphael and Lucifer are arc angels and thus far more powerful than your average angel like Castiel. Still, you're right, everything on Supernatural works except when it doesn't and that's not really anything new. Whatever indeed! 

[catrox14]

 

That was my point, I don't think she did bring up birth order. She said first son, not first-born son. First son can simply mean one is first in line to inherit his father’s role as head of the family, but does not necessarily mean they were literally born first. I think she was using a turn of phrase to say what Lucifer's status was to God before he disobeyed, not necessarily that he was literally born first.

 

I knew what you meant the first time.  I am saying I disagree with that. I think she was meaning first born son.  My interpretation is different than yours is all.

 

Whether Lucifer is the literal first born in Amara's mind or she thinks of him as just inheriting the family business of "God", it is still invoking Michael/Lucifer relationship for a reason and implies a revision of Michael's importance to the narrative. 

[MysteryGuest]

Well, I didn't totally hate the episode, but I didn't really like it, either.  It mainly just pointed out to me again just how poor the writing is on this show.  It makes me sad because I very much want it to be better.  The actors are up the to the task, but the writers let them down almost all the time.

 

I knew Rowena would be back, but it would have been so much better if Crowley, with Sam and Dean, had to bring her back because they needed her help with the spell for Lucifer.  The whole magic thigh thing was just stupid, IMO.

 

Not sure at all what's up with Cas.  Either he's had a major break with reality, or Lucifer's done something to him to keep him docile. That was sort of frustrating to watch for me.  It does seem like they really don't have a clue what to do with him anymore.

 

The ever waxing and waning attraction between Dean and Amara is extremely annoying, too.  Either it's a big deal, or it's not...pick one!  Dean's been in a funk all season because of this so-called attraction and yet we never see any evidence of it, even when they're in the same room together.  It's supposed to be a major storyline and has amounted to absolutely nothing except making Dean act weird.

 

I really expected this to be a big dramatic episode since there was so much going on, so I was disappointed that they played so much of it for comedy.  I wanted more gravitas than we got.  I'm really just ready to be done with this season and move on to next year's story.  I almost don't care how they wrap things up because I'm pretty sure I'm not going to like it.  I don't want to feel that way, but they've done nothing to really draw me in to the story this year.  I want the show to go out with a bang, not a whimper so they really need to step up their game next year.  

Edited April 8, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[redfish]

I knew Rowena would be back, but it would have been so much better if Crowley, with Sam and Dean, had to bring her back because they needed her help with the spell for Lucifer.  The whole magic thigh thing was just stupid, IMO.

 

 

They mentioned in S5 that an archangel like Lucifer can if not careful obliterate the mind/soul of the vessel reducing them to a lobotimized zombie. Lucifer may have promised to use Castiel's body to escape and fight Amara but he never promised to keep Castiel's mind in one piece. He could be slowly decimating it because he's not that considerate.

Edited April 8, 2016 by redfish

[ShellsandCheese]

Still not feeling Emily Swallow's portrayal of Amara. Some of the younger actresses were better; I would be more afraid of them than adult Amara. It is nice to see though that they gave her a better bra. 

[NoWillToResist]

I can't decide about that. I thought for a minute that Amara was going to use Cas to get to Dean. I still think that might happen. 

 

Now that Rowena is back she could summon Michael to the interim cage..and PLEASE Let it be Matt Cohen.  Or Dean could offer himself up as the Michael Sword to fight her and I would be fully on board with Jensen playing Michael...FINALLY. I

 

While I'm not against Dean being the hero here, and agree that as the prior Righteous Man, it's possible that he will qualify as the Chosen One, I'd rather him not have to be possessed to make it happen. I mean, if he's just going to be "Michael's condom", it will feel like he should have just done it years ago to get rid of Lucifer, IMO.

 

Here's a crazy thought: is there any chance that CAS could be the "chosen one" who can wield one of the Hands of God and take out Amara? I mean, how many times has Cas been brought back from the dead by the big guy? Seems to me that if Amara's looking for God's favourite as a bargaining chip, Cas would be the one to use, not Lucifer.

 

It would be pretty sweet if Amara could burn Lucifer right outta Cas, leaving Cas alone since he's "not worth it" and then have it be revealed that, not only is Cas worth it, but that he's the chosen one who ends up destroying her.

 

Cas is fucking broken though. :(  Lucifer was killing Sam and Dean! Granted, maybe he would have been shaken out of his stupor but, I don't know...

 

Regardless, I really enjoyed Misha's portrayal of Lucifer in this episode. It must be so refreshing for him to be allowed to be expressive, have facial expressions, smile, laugh and be a smarmy, flirty dick. The sarcasm and sass is awesome.

 

Poor Dean is so sad though. Give the man his angel back, dammit! ;)  I was reading that last week's ep was apparently originally supposed to air AFTER this one? If so, after the events in this ep, it really puts Dean's 'fuck everything' attitude in the last ep in a new light, IMO. In theory, he would have lost Cas in this ep with little to no hope of recovering him, and then his brother in the next episode.

 

I saw a lovely little comment online where someone compared Sam's "we should respect Cas' wishes" to Dean's "fuck that noise" attitude. Sam was talking about the fate of someone he liked and Dean was talking about the fate of someone he loved.

 

Wouldn't it be nice if, for once, the boys' determination to not lose a loved one resulted in something going RIGHT for a change? :)

Edited April 8, 2016 by NoWillToResist

[catrox14]

 

Poor Dean is so sad though. Give the man his angel back, dammit! ;)  I was reading that last week's ep was apparently originally supposed to air AFTER this one? If so, after the events in this ep, it really puts Dean's 'fuck everything' attitude in the last ep in a new light, IMO. In theory, he would have lost Cas in this ep with little to no hope of recovering him, and then his brother in the next episode.

 

Oh wow. I hadn't even thought about that. Yes. That would make Dean's depression that much more clear...and why he was willing to die by werewolf.  And maybe not entirely care if he couldn't save Sam that he didn't live either. It would make those last words to Michelle about "Watching the man he loves die" be more about Cas than Sam or at least equally because he would have known that Cas was in deeper shit than he thought.

 

New head!Canon...................accepted.