Season 4

[Smad]

7 hours ago, junienmomo said:

Lorelai agreeing that it was wrong for Richard to not tell Emily about his lunches, yet not feeling a need in later seasons to tell Luke about Christopher.

I'm on Lorelai's side with not understanding why Jason didn't at least tell her about Crystal. Then I flip immediately to Jason's side on telling her parents. Also, it's another foreshadowing of Lorelai's flip-flop opinion in Season 5, where it's perfectly OK for her to see Christopher without telling Luke, a repeat of the situation in the previous episode.

Different Worlds, baby. That's what I find so tragic about Lorelai as a character. She has a firm grasp and understanding of what's ok and not in a romantic relationship. She also knows what's essential to making a long lasting relationship work. She just fails to completely follow through on that when she herself is in such a relationship, largely because of her inexperience, immaturity and set behavior patterns for her different relationships (the different worlds she creates). And she is incapable of breaking pattern.

[twoods]

I absolutely love In the Clamor and Clang- I forgot what a great episode this was.  Great Luke and Lorelai scenes (their bell scene is one of my favorite scenes), Rory looking like an idiot- it doesn't get any better than that. Even the band stuff wasn't annoying, and Mrs. Kim found out about Lane. I'm wondering how Lane can buy all that crap with her mom's money and she never figured it out. 

Edited July 8, 2016 by twoods

[Eeksquire]

Yeah, I did always wonder, pre-job at Luke's, how Lane managed to finance all her "under the floorboards" goods.  However, 

Spoiler

I feel like all was redeemed when it was revealed in Season ... 7(?) that Mama Kim was a "under the floorboards" girl when it comes to her mother's religion - that reveal was worth every questionable Lane thing that came before.  

[Taryn74]

It was mentioned a few times, as I recall, that Lane did enough work at the antique shop to have her own money while in high school.

[Eeksquire]

Actually, that makes sense - Mrs. Kim is so matter of fact about finances (down to having Lane keep track of the packing materials she uses "for inventory", but letting her have them for free!) that she probably made sure to pay Lane for her work at the antique shop.  Though given her control over the rest of Lane's life, I'd find it curious if she didn't then monitor where it went.  Hm.  A conundrum.  (Or possibly just me overthinking? ... Nah, I'm sure it's not that. ;)

[hippielamb]

On 7/7/2016 at 4:54 AM, junienmomo said:

Ted Koppel

Lorelai agreeing that it was wrong for Richard to not tell Emily about his lunches, yet not feeling a need in later seasons to tell Luke about Christopher.

I thought somewhere I heard Rory saying something about it being wrong to sleep with a married man, but can't find it back.

 

If Emily weren't so threatened by Pennilynn, Richard probably would have told her. Without going too in depth in the Lorelai and Chris plot of season 5, it's a similar situation. The writers have done this several times with the characters, it seems to be a favourite way to cause conflict in a romantic relationship. Either that or they believe you can't be friends with an ex if you are dating or married to someone else. I don't care for that message at all.

I think Rory's judginess about the Asher/Paris relationship is where that comes from. When she was telling Lorelai about it, she said he had been married and had kids. 

 

In the Clamor and the Clangor

Lane and Mrs Kim finally have it out. I almost always sympathize with Lane but I felt bad for Mrs Kim when she found out Lane had called Luke twice, and Lorelai knew where she was but she didn't call her mom. It was sad watching her come to that realization. Lane was pretty cute when she learned about the gig at CBGB's.

I liked Luke telling Lorelai off about her behaviour. She is acting very entitled here but the whole town (including Luke) enable her. Reverend Skinner was funny in that church scene.

A Family Matter

I laughed at Lorelai pretend flirting with Kirk. Also, the Pink Coat is back. I tend to associate it with episodes that also have Jason.

We finally meet Liz! As I have said before in the unpopular thread, I like her. I like that she's so different from Luke yet they come from the same place. I like that she's trying to have a friendship with her kid. I laugh every time she finds her pot in the closet, no matter how many times I watch it.

I thought Luke's tirade against families was harsh, especially when said to a single mom. It's interesting that no matter how much his family irritates him, Luke doesn't cut ties with them. Or at least put some boundaries up. He's different than Lorelai in that respect.

I do have a quibble with Rory saying that Mrs Kim kicked Lane out. She expected Lane to follow her house rules, and she was welcome to live somewhere else if she couldn't do that. While I don't agree with her rules, it is her house. It makes sense that Rory would see it differently but it's not entirely accurate. I do like Lorelai telling Mrs Kim where Lane is.

Lol I laughed and sympathized with Lorelai when dealing with Jason and his constant business calls. Boy, can I relate to that, especially this scene. 

LORELAI: [hisses] Get off the phone!

JASON: [muffles the phone] It's the last one, I promise - two minutes tops.

LORELAI: Two minutes and I'm going to throw that thing in the lake.

JASON: There's a lake?

LORELAI: We just drove by the lake.

JASON: Aw, I missed the lake, can we drive by it again later?

LORELAI: Two minutes! [exasperated, she walks away to the entrance of Kim's Antiques]

[hippielamb]

Nag Hammadi

"I'm going to make out in the coatroom. Don't eat my chicken."

Always cracks me up. I think it's the way she says that line. There were some funny bits in this episode. Emily freaking out over filling the seats had me laughing. I like her best when she's a little unhinged. Rory's silly run in the middle of the street was funny too.

I don't care for Jess at all but I agree with him about Luke's martyr complex. I liked TJ calling Luke out on his attitude, it's too bad they changed this aspect of his character. Also, he built Liz a booth. Quite a change from the inept builder he is later.

The Incredible Shrinking Lorelais

Depressing episode, the girls spend the whole time apart when they really need each other. Sad that Trix and Richard exchanged words considering their close relationship and what is upcoming.

Awwww Dean, my love for him returns. To be honest it never left, I just like seeing him again. Calling to get Rory's ok before working for Tom and being there when she's falling apart. Plus, his strange chemistry with Lorelai.

Scenes from a Mall

Lane's cousin Christine cracks me up. 

I like watching all three Gilmore girls together. It's nice that Lorelai was there for her mom, and also that Emily praised her daughter.

[elang4]

4 minutes ago, hippielamb said:

Nag Hammadi

"I'm going to make out in the coatroom. Don't eat my chicken."

Always cracks me up. I think it's the way she says that line. There were some funny bits in this episode. Emily freaking out over filling the seats had me laughing. I like her best when she's a little unhinged. Rory's silly run in the middle of the street was funny too.

I don't care for Jess at all but I agree with him about Luke's martyr complex. I liked TJ calling Luke out on his attitude, it's too bad they changed this aspect of his character. Also, he built Liz a booth. Quite a change from the inept builder he is later.

The Incredible Shrinking Lorelais

Depressing episode, the girls spend the whole time apart when they really need each other. Sad that Trix and Richard exchanged words considering their close relationship and what is upcoming.

Awwww Dean, my love for him returns. To be honest it never left, I just like seeing him again. Calling to get Rory's ok before working for Tom and being there when she's falling apart. Plus, his strange chemistry with Lorelai.

Scenes from a Mall

Lane's cousin Christine cracks me up. 

I like watching all three Gilmore girls together. It's nice that Lorelai was there for her mom, and also that Emily praised her daughter.

And also in Scenes from a Mall, I liked how Emily said she was just admiring Lorelai's life and Rory just says casually oh I do that daily. Thought it was a sweet moment. :)

[Guest]

I like the non-Danes parts of Nag Hamadi.

AB's acting in Shrinking Lorelai's is so bad and I hate how bratty she is with her professor.

[twoods]

The Incredible Shrinking Lorelais- sad episode but another great LL scene with Lorelai breaking down while Luke was hugging her. Trix was also such a bitch in this episode- worse than usual. Loved Richard finally sticking up for himself, and Rory falling a few pegs and having to drop a class.

[Llywela]

On 11/07/2016 at 2:00 AM, hippielamb said:

 I liked TJ calling Luke out on his attitude, it's too bad they changed this aspect of his character. Also, he built Liz a booth. Quite a change from the inept builder he is later.

I think the show consistently tells us that TJ is a decent carpenter, but doesn't know the first thing about the wider building trade. He can knock up a booth or a set of shelves (that's just carpentry), but he can't handle a broader building contract (although he'd love to think he can).

[readster]

2 hours ago, Llywela said:

I think the show consistently tells us that TJ is a decent carpenter, but doesn't know the first thing about the wider building trade. He can knock up a booth or a set of shelves (that's just carpentry), but he can't handle a broader building contract (although he'd love to think he can).

Yeah, if they would have talked about that aspect of TJ more, it would have made sense. I know how to do many carpentry projects, but don't expect me to turn a duplex into a two story house. All they had to do was have it where TJ wanted to try to do better, but wasn't good at bigger projects. Even him saying: "I really wish I could do this, I can build a booth or fix a broken step, but try to put together a whole new wall or room. I don't have a prayer." 

[junienmomo]

2 hours ago, readster said:

Yeah, if they would have talked about that aspect of TJ more, it would have made sense. I know how to do many carpentry projects, but don't expect me to turn a duplex into a two story house. All they had to do was have it where TJ wanted to try to do better, but wasn't good at bigger projects. Even him saying: "I really wish I could do this, I can build a booth or fix a broken step, but try to put together a whole new wall or room. I don't have a prayer." 

I'm pretty sure TJ was never intended to be very good at big stuff. He was Boyfriend 2.0 to Liz 2.0, magically rehabilitated from the disaster that was Liz 1.0 and produced the very broken Jess. By rehabilitated I mean fit into the normal quirky Stars Hollow character set, except of course for their relationship with Luke, from whom they stole, badgered, deceived and in general abused his sense of taking care of family. 

[hippielamb]

On 7/12/2016 at 6:48 AM, Llywela said:

I think the show consistently tells us that TJ is a decent carpenter, but doesn't know the first thing about the wider building trade. He can knock up a booth or a set of shelves (that's just carpentry), but he can't handle a broader building contract (although he'd love to think he can).

Thank you for explaining. It makes more sense for him to be good at smaller projects. Why he couldn't work as a carpenter is beyond me, but that's skipping ahead.

The Reigning Lorelai

This is a great Emily episode. I liked Richard's scenes with both Lorelai and Rory.

The argyle sweater is back with Rory wearing a matching one. Funny bit of Emily having a system and asking Lorelai to hand her things, then Lorelai doing the same thing to Rory. I really enjoy episodes that focus on the Gilmore family.

Girls in Bikinis

Nerds on spring break lol

It was nice to see Madeline and Louise again. Paris throwing money around is a sad commentary but more and more we see privilege creeping in.

I liked the scenes between Lorelai and Jason and the talking key. His hair looks different in this one, like it's curlier or something. Funny that he has the same commitment issues as Lorelai.

I know we're supposed to sympathize with Luke but I don't. Maybe Nicole was trying to get his attention or she really had moved on. Either way, his behaviour towards her since they got married doesn't make me feel bad for him. It goes back to Jess' comment about the martyr complex.

[Guest]

Girls in Bikinis is one of my bottom 5 episodes of the series if you disregard Season 7. I usually skip it. But, alas, the rewatch. 

Madeline and Louise are especially annoying.

[Guest]

Luke can see her face is ruined by TJ, and I don't like Paris' storyline much. Love the rest of it though!

[junienmomo]

Luke Can See Her Face, excepting the horrible TJ, shows how cleanly the Palladinos can switch on the Season 1 vibe. I'll even give Liz a path to being almost tolerable if it weren't for the turkey and Carrie bits.

Lorelai and Luke shine here. The banter between them after Shel leaves is world-class. Peppy, rhythmic, almost like a song, with Luke's "You'll never want for chicken," ending musically. The same happens again when Lorelai comes in for coffee and Jess appears. Lorelai and Luke exchange affectionate barbs, knowing that they can dump their cares on the other without consequence. 

Luke, with the exception of the lameness of the tape, has one of his best episodes. We see how he both is happy for Liz, wants the best for her, yet still hates being taken advantage of. He's optimistic enough to buy self-improvement tapes, as usual taking a tossed-off comment from Lorelai seriously. He's both optimistic and pleasant in his Lukeish way. 

Asher in the hospital - bleh, but doesn't detract too much from the rest of the episode. Love how the Dragonfly team forces each other to reset their goals, and they pull together wonderfully sleeping with the zucchini, a classic GG moment. I'm as uncomfortable as Luke is during the bachelor party; his Lord of Flatbush reference is spot on. Jess' expression as Luke launches into his self-help crap is priceless.

Closing - Lorelai's goofy face is completely adorable at the end after she accepts Luke's invitation.

 

[twoods]

The last three episodes of season four are rewatched constantly- I love them so much. Of course there is some fast forwarding, but for the most part they are definitely in my top 10. 

I absolutely loved Liz and TJ's wedding (even TJ talking about tights wasn't annoying). Lorelai, Luke and Jess trying not to crack up at the singing was hilarious, as was the bonding between Luke and Jess. And of course the awkward LL dance. 

[Kohola3]

Quote

And of course the awkward LL dance. 

One of my favorite scenes, done so well.  The first few steps, Lorelai looking everywhere but at Luke.  Then they enter a comfort zone and end up dancing so closely.  Ahhhhh.....

[Guest]

I dislike Paris more on this rewatch than usual. I think Season 4 is her worst season. At least when she's a jerk in Season 1, she's a child. But Season 4 she is cruel to so many people. Rory's advice to her about dumping Asher at the hospital shows how completely self-centered Rory and Paris both are.

[txhorns79]

Quote

At least when she's a jerk in Season 1, she's a child. But Season 4 she is cruel to so many people.

I really, really hate how cruel Paris is to Jamie.  I didn't understand that particular choice for the character.  I fully understand that Paris might move on from her high school boyfriend, but she was just so awful to him.  I mean, even if the general idea here was for Paris to assure Jamie hated her to make the break up easier, I don't know why should would do that. 

[Kohola3]

Let's face it, Paris was pretty horrible to all of her boyfriends, including Doyle.  Nothing warm and fuzzy about her.  Even with Asher, she was ready to dump him because he was old.  If he hadn't had those plans for England, I have to think she'd have ditched him that day in the hospital.

But I agree that she was particularly cruel to Jamie who really didn't seem to deserve it.

[Taryn74]

I don't know, as much as I hate to admit it, I kind of get it.  We were shown consistently throughout the series that Paris had seriously terrible people skills.  She treated Jamie horribly, yes, but in some strange way I don't think she realized how horrible she was being.  She's just the type of person that expects everyone to keep up - to be on her wavelength - so when she was ready to move on it annoyed her that Jamie wasn't.  She did, at first, lay down some not-so-subtle hints (strange hints, but hints nonetheless, such as "penciling him in") that she was ready to break up, but then when he didn't get it she got angry and started taking it out on him.

[TwirlyGirly]

On ‎7‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 9:57 AM, FictionLover said:

I totally understand when people don't like Lorelai but I love her. Her annoying babbling seems to cover her insecurities. Even her condescending comments about people don't seem to be heartfelt. An example is when she felt bad for Taylor when she heard no one voted for him so she went to the polls and asked voters to vote for him. She always felt bad if she hurt someone and tried to make it right.  She volunteered her time for the town (rummage sale,  sewing) and it seemed she just couldn't say no to anyone. Her character worked for me.

I tend to agree, and give Paris a LOT of leeway, because it's fairly obvious there were no interpersonal relationships of any kind that were properly modeled for Paris in her upbringing. Yeah, I suppose you could say because she is smart, she *should* have picked up on these things, but it seems to me she was so focused on academic achievement as her primary pathway to success she developed tunnel vision, and really didn't consider how important an ability to form solid relationships might contribute to whether she became successful (and apparently her parents weren't around enough to show her how their relationships with others had factored into whatever success they had achieved).

Paris was always such a sad character to me. She seemed so desperate to have someone to lean on, but her experience growing up had taught her (rightly or wrongly) that other people couldn't be depended upon to provide emotional support when she most needed it. So I see her gravitating towards people, then pulling away when she realizes what she's doing, in an attempt at self-preservation and avoiding hurt.

[txhorns79]

Quote

She treated Jamie horribly, yes, but in some strange way I don't think she realized how horrible she was being.

But didn't Rory essentially tell her at some point that she was being awful?  I can see Paris not initially getting it, but I feel like even someone with poor interpersonal skills is going to catch on, if only because Paris did seem to at least sometimes listen to Rory. 

[Taryn74]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

But didn't Rory essentially tell her at some point that she was being awful? 

Yes, I think it was when Paris finally talked to Jamie and broke it off for good though.

I'm going back and checking transcripts because now I'm curious, LOL.  Here's what I'm finding -

Quote

JAMIE: Look, I need to find out what's up with Paris, and I don't know who else to ask.

RORY: Oh.

JAMIE: I mean, I had to rearrange a million things to come here, and I could only manage two days and she won't see me.

RORY: Well, you're going to see her tomorrow, aren't you?

JAMIE: If she doesn't cancel.

RORY: She's not going to cancel. [Jamie gives her a doubtful look] She wouldn't.

JAMIE: Well, she's been canceling plans for weeks. She's not calling me as much - I know, I sound pathetic.

That was right before Rory confronts Paris about standing Jamie up when he came to Yale (and Paris had only "penciled him in" so she didn't go meet up with him.  Honestly I can see why Paris would be annoyed that he wasn't getting it by that point.  Other people may have handled it with more tact, but this is Paris.

And then -

Quote

RORY: Well, at least I'm not mean to people who love me. Where is your heart?

PARIS: I know I've mishandled the Jamie situation. He just can't take a hint.

RORY: Well, you gotta do something, because one of us here does care about Jamie and I think its me.

PARIS: I know. He's my first real boyfriend.

RORY: Well, you got lucky with him.

PARIS: And he's crazy about me, I never quite figured out why.

RORY: Oh, don't get so self-deprecating. It's obnoxious.

PARIS: He's been so forgiving. I've been pretty mean. [picks up cordless phone and starts dialing]

RORY: Just talk to him and see how it goes.

PARIS: [into phone] Hey, it's me. We've got to end this - now. [Rory is shocked.] There's just no reason to prolong it. Sorry you came all the way out here. Well, Rory show me the light. She made me see there's just no point in going on.

RORY: Paris!

PARIS: No, she just came home and we talked. She's right here if you want to ask her, yourself.

RORY: Do not give me that phone!

PARIS: Anyhow, I'm really sorry Jamie. Really. Bye.

RORY: That had all the tact of a Nazi storm trooper.

PARIS: It was your idea.

RORY: Breaking up was not my idea.

PARIS: Well, he'd be stupid if he thought that's why I'd do it. [stands and paces] This was good. It was right. I'm glad I did it. You can have the TV if you want. [exits to bedroom]

[hippielamb]

Tick, Tick, Tick, Boom 

Rory had some moments of saying the wrong thing. First with giving her unsolicited opinion on Dean dropping out and then trash talking Lindsay in the supermarket that Dean works. Dean making their friendship a priority appears sweet but it shows him to be a bad husband. It's sad that Rory is the only person in his life who doesn't want him to settle. 

Lorelai's body language after the Gilmores found out about her and Jason was telling. She looked like a teenager about to be reprimanded.

Afterboom

Poor Jason. I feel bad for him but shouldn't he have expected his father to retaliate after Jason went into business with Richard? I don't know how he thought he could continue his relationship with Lorelai when he is suing her father. 

Richard's scene with Lorelai was done well. You can hear the emotion in his voice when Lorelai shows no concern for him or his business. This is one of the few times I can't side with Lorelai. Emily and Richard were funny at Friday night dinner with their awkwardness. I like the scene when Richard is going to sit beside Emily on the sofa but knows it is a bad idea so he stands behind her. 

Luke Can See Her Face 

I like that Luke is happy for Liz. The last time we saw her all he did was rain on her parade, it's nice that he is trying to be supportive. TJ was a jerk to Jess. I don't like Jess at all but TJ was out of line. 

It's interesting that Rory doesn't tell her mom about her friendship with Dean and that Lindsay doesn't approve. I think Rory knows that Lorelai would tell her it's crossing a line so she keeps silent. More instances of Rory speaking out of turn, to Asher's granddaughter. I tend to think of season 5 Rory as bratty because she gives attitude to everyone but it's showing up here sooner than I remembered. Maybe being away from her home town gives her permission to not be the perfect angel all the time. 

Sleeping in the zucchini patch was cute and very Stars Hollowesque. 

5 hours ago, TwirlyGirly said:

I tend to agree, and give Paris a LOT of leeway, because it's fairly obvious there were no interpersonal relationships of any kind that were properly modeled for Paris in her upbringing. Yeah, I suppose you could say because she is smart, she *should* have picked up on these things, but it seems to me she was so focused on academic achievement as her primary pathway to success she developed tunnel vision, and really didn't consider how important an ability to form solid relationships might contribute to whether she became successful (and apparently her parents weren't around enough to show her how their relationships with others had factored into whatever success they had achieved).

 

Paris' social skills were awful, I think that was pretty consistent throughout the show. I have known people somewhat like that. They are so focused on school, or their career goals that they don't know how to interact with people on a social level. I think the Paris/Jamie break-up was supposed to be comedy, the way she spoke to him on the phone. Like many mean spirited things this show uses as comedy, I didn't find it funny. 

[Guest]

I love LWFTWT so much. The Jess and Luke scenes are all perfect, even in the little things (Jess throwing away Luke's deodorant is one of those small funny moments). I love Mrs. Kim's scenes with Lane.

i don't like the Dean and Rory scenes, but it is still a top 5 episode for me!

[twoods]

Rory again annoying me in LWFTWT. Duncan (I know that's not his name but the actor will always be Duncan from VM) and his friends weren't that obnoxious at the bar, yet Rory rudely sits off by herself. The stupid brigade group were way more annoying, yet pod Rory tolerated them just fine. Thanks for ruining another good episode by your snobby attitude! At least the Jess and Luke hug made up for it, but the episode usually ends there for me because I refuse to see a reformed Jess get crushed by the snob. 

[junienmomo]

8 hours ago, hippielamb said:

 

Afterboom

Poor Jason. I feel bad for him but shouldn't he have expected his father to retaliate after Jason went into business with Richard? I don't know how he thought he could continue his relationship with Lorelai when he is suing her father. 

Jason was a narcissist and a control freak, which served him well in business, not so well in relationships. He thought he could continue the relationship because he wanted to believe he controlled it, even though her discomfort over the key nonplussed him. His business style indicated that he believed that pushing through discomfort like that was the way to win, and in business he was right. He wasn't so successful trying that with Lorelai.

His sleep had to be his sleep and couldn't be disturbed for any reason. He was kind enough to provide a parallel option for his girlfriends, but it was still all about him. Poor Cyrus. Makes me think of Paul Anka, who had a much better life with his insane owner that Cyrus did with his. The dogs are the most obvious example of how different Jason and Lorelai were. He had to completely control his dog, and she had to let herself be completely controlled by hers, yet she would never have let Jason control her. 

[hippielamb]

Last Weeks Fights, This Weeks Tights

Poor Mrs Kim, it must have been quite a shock to see her daughter living with two boys. I like that she listens to Lorelai both times and makes an effort to have a relationship with Lane. 

Dean or Jess for the umpteenth time is boring. I did like Rory telling Jess no. He was way too pushy in that scene.

On 7/18/2016 at 0:57 AM, twoods said:

Rory again annoying me in LWFTWT. Duncan (I know that's not his name but the actor will always be Duncan from VM) and his friends weren't that obnoxious at the bar, yet Rory rudely sits off by herself. The stupid brigade group were way more annoying, yet pod Rory tolerated them just fine. Thanks for ruining another good episode by your snobby attitude! At least the Jess and Luke hug made up for it, but the episode usually ends there for me because I refuse to see a reformed Jess get crushed by the snob. 

I liked Graham too, he was nice and charming when he met Rory. She seemed like she didn't want to drink or have fun in the bar which makes me wonder why she even showed up. I understand not wanting to get in a car driven by a drunk but she was uptight during that entire scene.

Raincoats and Recipes

Lol at Lorelai locking Rory in her room. I also laughed at the physical comedy in this episode. Babette's location, location, location scene cracks me up. 

Not a fan of arguing before the kiss. Or that Luke brings up his investment in the inn. 

Lorelai's face when Dean comes out of Rory's room kills me. She can't even look at him. He's the guy she trusted with her daughter. It's sad. Oh, Rory. :( I just want to give her a hug. Poor poppet. 

[Taryn74]

37 minutes ago, hippielamb said:

Last Weeks Fights, This Weeks Tights

Lorelai's face when Dean comes out of Rory's room kills me. She can't even look at him. 

I know, it's like she literally just got kicked in the gut.  :(

[readster]

I agree, Lauren Graham killed that scene with Dean walking out. I also agree with Rory at the bar, why even bother going? I get that they were trying to turn it around with Graham saying: "He's the best intoxicated designated driver ever." I was like: "Are you freaking kidding me?" That was a horrible excuse, I would have said: "putz" too after that. However, Rory was not even trying before they got to the bar. It was all: "Dean this and Dean that." Sad to say, I did go on a set up once and she gave me the cold shoulder to begin with. She had a thing for another guy, but I asked her out first. Sadly, turn around a month later, he turned out to be a horrible person I found out from a third party. The girl ended up transferring out of school due to the experience. Yeah, I will say, just because you have a good friend set you up, if you aren't going to even try to be invested. Then just don't lead the person on. 

[elang4]

Have to say I loved the Luke/Jess interactions in Luke Can See Her face and LWFTWT. It's the first time you really see that Jess is starting to mature. His confession that he came to the wedding because of Luke was so lovely and when he finally thanked him for everything after the wedding, it was so sweet. :)

I actually think if Jess hadn't seen Dean with Rory as well, he probably wouldn't have given her the ultimatum. And if Rory hadn't been so obsessed with Dean at the time, I think something could have happened but I guess we'll never know now.

[TimetravellingBW]

20 hours ago, elang4 said:

Have to say I loved the Luke/Jess interactions in Luke Can See Her face and LWFTWT. It's the first time you really see that Jess is starting to mature. His confession that he came to the wedding because of Luke was so lovely and when he finally thanked him for everything after the wedding, it was so sweet. :)

I actually think if Jess hadn't seen Dean with Rory as well, he probably wouldn't have given her the ultimatum. And if Rory hadn't been so obsessed with Dean at the time, I think something could have happened but I guess we'll never know now.

I love their interactions in those episodes too, the scene at TJ's bachelor party is hilarious and you can really see their similarities come through - I love how they're both so uncomfortable spending time in a club and utterly uninterested in the strippers. (That scene is one of the reasons I can never buy Jess's diabolical bad boy reputation - the guy brought a book to a strip club, he literally sat there reading with half-dressed women wandering around. Good lord).

On 13/07/2016 at 4:00 AM, junienmomo said:

I'm pretty sure TJ was never intended to be very good at big stuff. He was Boyfriend 2.0 to Liz 2.0, magically rehabilitated from the disaster that was Liz 1.0 and produced the very broken Jess. By rehabilitated I mean fit into the normal quirky Stars Hollow character set, except of course for their relationship with Luke, from whom they stole, badgered, deceived and in general abused his sense of taking care of family. 

I like that Jess admitted he came to the wedding because of Luke, it really healed things after their poor relationship during Season 4. But all the stuff with Jess having to accept Liz and TJ and how he's *so unreasonable* for not embracing their relationship was super gross for me. The fact Liz dated and married so many horrible guys was always played for comedy, even though it meant Jess's childhood was clearly a rotating round of douchebags that he had to deal with. Most of the guys were implied to be financially, verbally and emotionally abusive and may well have been physically abusive as well but suddenly Jess is the bad guy for not being all gung-ho about Liz's latest marriage? Why would he assume this guy was going to be any different? Why would he believe that this time Liz had finally got her act together? Jess pulled a lot of selfish, cruel and dumb stuff that he should get called out on, but I was irritated he was portrayed as the bad guy while Liz was a harmless ditz. Sure, it's great that Liz gets to live happily ever after with TJ in Stars Hollow, continue to take advantage of Luke and apparently be besties with Lorelai. But meanwhile Jess was dealing with all the baggage caused by her neglectful parenting and crappy boyfriends, Stars Hollow alienated him and Lorelai loathed him. (How Lorelai was always so understanding with Liz, while treating Jess like the devil incarnate was such a huge double standard on her part).

Edited July 22, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[junienmomo]

4 hours ago, TimetravellingBW said:

Jess pulled a lot of selfish, cruel and dumb stuff that he should get called out on, but I was irritated he was portrayed as the bad guy while Liz was a harmless ditz. Sure, it's great that Liz gets to live happily ever after with TJ in Stars Hollow, continue to take advantage of Luke and apparently be besties with Lorelai. But meanwhile Jess was dealing with all the baggage caused by her neglectful parenting and crappy boyfriends, Stars Hollow alienated him and Lorelai loathed him. (How Lorelai was always so understanding with Liz, while treating Jess like the devil incarnate was such a huge double standard on her part).

The mom code sure didn't apply to Jess like it did with Lane. Lorelai didn't even go to Luke with some of the things she thought Jess pulled, much less Liz. I would have loved to see Liz really understanding what she did to her kid. 

[Aloeonatable]

6 hours ago, TimetravellingBW said:

But meanwhile Jess was dealing with all the baggage caused by her neglectful parenting and crappy boyfriends, Stars Hollow alienated him and Lorelai loathed him. (How Lorelai was always so understanding with Liz, while treating Jess like the devil incarnate was such a huge double standard on her part).

Liz had no affect on Rory. Jess did. 

[Viqutorious]

Did Liz and Rory ever meet? (Have a scene or scenes together?)

Edited July 23, 2016 by CheeseBurgh

[katha]

I think Lorelai was slightly weird with all three boyfriends, not that there's a magic formula how to deal with that anyway. IMO with Jess a few things contributed: He had an effect on Rory and by season 4 after their trainwreck relationship Lorelai was understandably angry that he hurt her feelings, Lorelai always had problems accepting that Rory made her own decisions so it was easier to blame Jess for "making" her do things Lorelai didn't like, Lorelai probably recognized some of her own teenage angry and self-destructive behaviour in Jess and wanted Rory far away from that, and...Jess didn't like her. Ever. I do think her ego was hurt that he never warmed up to her and she spitefully retaliated in kind. You could also speculate that to some degree...Jess' life with Liz seemed both emotionally and economically deprived, and Lorelai coming from privilege didn't really understand all the repercussions that might have on a person and how that's different from growing up with Emily and Richard.

That said, apart from occasional skirmishes with Jess and the car crash freakout, she didn't go out of her way to be nasty to him. I think she herself recognized that not all her motives for her dislike of him were totally pure and that it would be way creepy if she tried to really make trouble for him (what with the power difference between established adult and disenfranchised teenager), so she was relatively restrained. That she tolerated Liz was mostly because Liz and TJ were supposed to be "wacky comic characters" (ugh), so as usual all sense went out the window in the scripts to accomodate that.

[TimetravellingBW]

Lorelai absolutely didn't understand Jess's background or why he acted like he did. (Someone commented on another thread, I can't remember where, that Lorelai thought she knew Jess's type but she didn't - she knew the Chris, Logan and Tristan's type who lashed out because of being spoiled and smothered, not Jess who lashed out because of neglect and abuse).

I think on top of genuine fear and anger of Jess hurting Rory, Lorelai's dislike of Jess was partly caused by a bruised ego and loss of control. With Dean and Rory she had a huge amount of control in their relationship: He came to their house/the diner/town meetings constantly, hung out with both of them, helped Lorelai with chores and came to her for advice behind Rory's back. Imo Lorelai enjoyed having that much input into Rory's relationship and was able to persuade herself she was a cool, chill Mom about her daughter dating because she was directly talking to both Rory and Dean about the relationship.

With Jess, she has zero control: Rory was more reticent because she knew Lorelai disliked him, the pair were far more private rather than being the town's public golden couple like Rory/Dean, after the whole bracelet debacle Jess didn't even try to impress Lorelai and he sure as hell wasn't hanging out with her alone - let alone confiding his worries and fears. I also think Jess connected to Rory in a way Lorelai didn't, (their interest in reading, literature and writing) and Lorelai doesn't respond well to someone usurping her position in any part of Rory's life. Plus she already had issues with Luke putting Jess above Lorelai/Rory in his priorities (see: Teach Me Tonight). So from Lorelai's perspective, this one person in Stars Hollow who doesn't fall at her feet was dragging away the two people she's closest too and she has no control over any of it. So I think her dislike of Jess was based around a lot of insecurity and wounded pride, as well as him being a genuine jerk and hurting Rory/Luke.

I agree that Lorelai didn't go out of her way to be cruel to Jess,  but whenever the opportunity arose she happily leapt at the chance to think the worst and attack him - often pretty savagely. (Lost and Found, Teach Me Tonight, Those Lazy-Hazy-Crazy Days, Face-Off, Nag Hammad etc.) I think that's very human and totally natural, but given she's older she could have at least tried to have more empathy and maturity and not stoop to the level of a damaged 16 year old.  (Jess obviously 100% shouldn't have been such a dumb jerk - but he spent all of Season 4 and offscreen Season 5 dealing with the fact he almost destroyed his relationships with Luke and Rory, left Stars Hollow with no qualifications or skills, and was essentially on his own to face life. Lorelai happily got on with life and her relationships with Luke or Rory didn't suffer from her out of proportion hatred of a person they both cared deeply about).  

And yeah ugh, given how much baggage Jess carried and Luke's previous frustrations with Liz, making Liz and TJ wacky comic relief characters really didn't fit. They built Liz up to be such a negative, selfish character (shipping Jess to Stars Hollow, not wanting him home for Christmas) that the show had to twist other characters out of shape to accommodate her as a harmless ditz.

Edited July 23, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[TimetravellingBW]

11 hours ago, CheeseBurgh said:

Did Liz and Rory ever meet? (Have a scene or scenes together?)

Not that I remember though I could be wrong. It probably would have been too painful for Rory and the show avoided putting Liz in situations where she could actually be held accountable for her actions. Having her come face to face with her son's ex-girlfriend who witnessed Jess's emotional scars up close would be very awkward. 

Edited July 23, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[patchwork]

It seems likely that when she remembered Jess' existence Liz would probably act like a Cool Mom too so Lorelai would immediately make Jess wary.  

[Taryn74]

3 hours ago, TimetravellingBW said:

Lorelai absolutely didn't understand Jess's background or why he acted like he did.

Didn't want to quote the entire post, but wow.  You really nailed it.  I found this especially insightful -

Quote

So from Lorelai's perspective, this one person in Stars Hollow who doesn't fall at her feet was dragging away the two people she's closest too and she has no control over any of it.

[TimetravellingBW]

7 hours ago, patchwork said:

It seems likely that when she remembered Jess' existence Liz would probably act like a Cool Mom too so Lorelai would immediately make Jess wary.  

That's so true that Liz acted like a very destructive Cool Mom - clearly laying down few rules/discipline for Jess to the point of neglect, smoking and doing drugs, all her boyfriends etc - that Jess was the last person to be impressed by Lorelai's cool mom bit. In fact, in hindsight trying to be chill and hip and on his level - especially within minutes of meeting him - was one of the worst things Lorelai could have done. Jess knew the actual I'm-Chill-I-Don't-Give-A-Shit-Do-What-You-Want parent type and it wasn't something that appealed to him, it was something that damaged him. (And Lorelai wasn't like that, she was actually a responsible, hands-on parent but she certainly put on a more relaxed persona).

Ironically long term Jess responded much better to Luke's parenting style - who didn't try to be cool or win him over, who could be dogmatic laying down boundaries, who was pretty gruff, and old-fashioned in his expectations of school and working - because it was a type of security Jess hadn't experienced before. (I'll always insist that Jess didn't come back at the end of S2 just for Rory, but because he realised he actually appreciated living with Luke and having someone who cared and made effort to look after him - even if he was overbearing compared to Liz). I'd love to see a version of events when Jess came to Luke much earlier - when he was still a kid - and how he would have turned out with a stable parental figure and upbringing.

Edited July 23, 2016 by TimetravellingBW

[solotrek]

14 hours ago, TimetravellingBW said:

That's so true that Liz acted like a very destructive Cool Mom - clearly laying down few rules/discipline for Jess to the point of neglect, smoking and doing drugs, all her boyfriends etc - that Jess was the last person to be impressed by Lorelai's cool mom bit. In fact, in hindsight trying to be chill and hip and on his level - especially within minutes of meeting him - was one of the worst things Lorelai could have done. Jess knew the actual I'm-Chill-I-Don't-Give-A-Shit-Do-What-You-Want parent type and it wasn't something that appealed to him, it was something that damaged him. (And Lorelai wasn't like that, she was actually a responsible, hands-on parent but she certainly put on a more relaxed persona).

Ironically long term Jess responded much better to Luke's parenting style - who didn't try to be cool or win him over, who could be dogmatic laying down boundaries, who was pretty gruff, and old-fashioned in his expectations of school and working - because it was a type of security Jess hadn't experienced before. (I'll always insist that Jess didn't come back at the end of S2 just for Rory, but because he realised he actually appreciated living with Luke and having someone who cared and made effort to look after him - even if he was overbearing compared to Liz). I'd love to see a version of events when Jess came to Luke much earlier - when he was still a kid - and how he would have turned out with a stable parental figure and upbringing.

That all probably explains why he reacted to Mrs. Kim the way he did. Instant respect. 

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

Well yeah, but Mrs. Kim is scary. Emily Gilmore is the only person in the known universe who doesn't fear her. 

[Kohola3]

Thank you Freeform for allowing me to watch my favorite scene of all of the episodes today - the dance at the wedding.  In my world, nothing tops it.

That is all.

[elang4]

I agree! That has to be my favourite moment of the whole series as well! :)

[lulu1960]

I love that scene. I have watched it so many times I have lost count. 

[FictionLover]

Lauren Graham has never been more adorable.