S04.E06: The Vault

[radishcake]

Norman uncovers painful truths as his therapy progresses; Norma works to prevent a secret from being revealed; Romero assists an old friend despite the risk to his career.

[natyxg]

Well, damn. This episode was so good. This season has been so good, it's like the whole show has been leading up to it.

[Frisson]

Tears all around tonight. I don't know how Norma didn't end up with DID to escape all her traumas like Norman did.

[Spartan Girl]

My friend after tonight's episode: there isn't enough therapy in the world for Norma.

But hey, she actually was honest for once! And kudos to Romero for not being mad or disguste; after all, it was long before they ever met. They're actually pretty good together...too bad they're gonna die.

Man, that flashback with Norman hiding under the bed, holding Norma's hand while his father raped her...no wonder he's so warped. A child should never EVER have to see something like that. And that's why I can never completely sympathize with Norma. You can't expect battered women to be that great at parenting, but still...

Not to mention her own inability to let her son's have their own lives was part of the problem....as evidence by the hissy fit she threw when Dylan was packing. "Have fun leaving me!" It's always about her.

I'm shocked the good doctor has lived this long.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Spartan Girl

[Mabinogia]

I haven't cried that hard in a long time. Norma breaks my heart. But damn, her shouting speech to Chick about not breaking and she's still standing. And then she tells Romero because she's finally found someone she loves enough to not keep secrets from. I about died. It is killing me knowing what happens to them. I almost want to stop watching so that the show has a happy ending for me. Norman getting help, Norma finally finding someone who loves her as much as she loves him, Dillon getting away before he gets killed. It's all going to go to hell soon and that breaks my heart.

 

If Freddie doesn't win every acting award for this ep alone, there is no justice in this world. He is absolutely brilliant and I can actually feel the seething rage behind his calm demeanor. He really is a ticking time bomb and I feel it. Not just see it, but like, I feel the tension when he is on screen, just waiting for the other shoe to drop.

 

I wasn't sure but I am loving the whole psych hospital storyline. They have gone much farther with it than I thought they would and I am loving it. The doctor (RIP, I mean, we all know he's a goner, right?) is great. He almost looked excited at talking to Norma this time, like he can see all the awards for the research paper he's going to write about this case (you know, if he lives long enough which, I'm thinking no).

 

best ep so far. I LOVE this show.

[Chaos Theory]

Norma's speech at the end. Telling Romero everything was so well done and amazing. It was heartbreaking her laying out the truth for him so certain he would leave and when he didn't the happiness was palpable.

The scene where Mother was telling the psychiatrist about Norman's father was also extremely well done. I thought the whole thing was done perfectly.. Mother being all sad and begging and then threatening.

[thuganomics85]

Wow, pretty intense episode and a great one for both Vera Farmiga and Freddie Highmore, who continue to give some of the best performances on television, which will continue to sadly be ignored come award time, I suspect.

 

Loved it when Norma finally quit letting Chick toy with her and blew up at him.  And then told Romero the truth about what happened with her and Caleb.  Norma really has major issues with being truthful to anyone, so this really is a pretty big step for her.  And I'm glad Romero didn't let me down, and suddenly not to be with her anymore.  Considering the skeletons in his closet, that would have been one of the biggest dick moves on television, if he did.  I hope it makes their relationship stronger.  But I have to think this isn't the end of Chick being a thorn in their side.  And I certainly think it's only a matter of time before Caleb makes his way back to White Pines.

 

Meanwhile, finding out that Norman actually witnessed his mom being raped by his dad was certainly harrowing.  It's so frustrating seeing Dr. Edwards trying his best to help, because it's pretty much destined to fail.  Any chance of Norman being saved has problem already expired, and it's just the case of waiting and seeing what will happen.  The fact that they are still avoiding him finding out about Norma and Romero, makes me think that will come into play.  The way Norman flips between himself and "Mother" continues to be perfect.

 

Oh, fuck, Dylan.  This is probably going to be his downfall.  He only has a few days before leaving to Seattle, but he finds the letter from Emma's mom, and is already putting the pieces together that something went down.  Not good, Dylan!  Not good! 

 

Romero giving the key back to his ex will probably also come back into play, I think.  I don't trust her.

 

This season is amazing to me, because I somehow look forward to it each week, even though a part of me dreads knowing that each episode means we're getting closer and closer to when it all goes south, and probably most everyone dies.  There clearly will be no happy ending here.

[queenanne]

This season is amazing to me, because I somehow look forward to it each week, even though a part of me dreads knowing that each episode means we're getting closer and closer to when it all goes south, and probably most everyone dies.  There clearly will be no happy ending here.

 

It was always finely crafted, but this season has been outstanding IMO, my only "appointment TV" so far this season.

[Bama]

Norma - "Go pack your bags."

 

Alex - "Okay.............where are we going?"

 

 

Bama - all the ugly, happy tears

[FanOfTheFans]

The acting on this show is just lights out. I cried with Norma tonight. And how ominous and creepy does Chick come across. He really is a predator of the worst kind. He makes my skin crawl. Kudos to the actor.

I feel like a poster up thread who wants to stop watching now for a happy ending. It is going to be heartbreaking to watch this all blow up.

[Luckylyn]

Things have been going so smoothly for Dylan and Emma with even Norman being happy for them.  So of course, Dylan finds the stuffed animal and letter just days before he was going to be out of this mess.  I really was annoyed with Norma taking her anger at Chick out on Dylan and then trying to make Dylan feel guilty for moving was just terrible.

 

Then at the end, I was so relieved for her because Romero was so supportive. I don't think we've ever seen Norma be as honest with anyone as she was with Romero.  They really are this wonderful match, and it's painful to watch because it's all doomed.    That's the thing about Norma, there are moments I really don't like her and other moments where I'm completely rooting to her.  She's such a complicated character who can be horrible and sympathetic at the same time.   She's a complete mess of a person for reasons that are understandable given her upbringing, her brother's betrayal, and her abusive marriage but she's also can be an example of resilience.  Still, she' has wronged Norman by treating him as a pseudo husband and hiding his issues rather than getting him help sooner.  Now, he's killed multiple people and reached a point of no return.  I don't blame Norma for Norman's mental illness but do think she deserves some blame for how far gone he is.  Although, I do appreciate the show pointing out that mental health options for people without means are problematic.

 

I think Caleb's going to return, and it's going to be terrible.  I wonder if Romero will go after him for hurting Norma.  As awful as Chick is, he made a valid point about how selfish it was of Caleb to beat up Chick and then take off not knowing if Chick would be willing to hurt Dylan in retaliation.  That's the thing about Caleb.  I feel like he thinks of himself like when Dylan and Norma were telling him to go away and he kept hovering around.  He carelessly tells Chick he's Dylan's father.  Right when Dylan's depending on him, Caleb takes off leaving Dylan to deal with the nasty Chick fallout alone.  Caleb does this sad sack "woe is me" thing but will thoughtlessly cause damage.  He seems pathetic but can be dangerous in surprising ways.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Luckylyn

[TattleTeeny]

Can  someone remind me what's in the letter from Emma's mom? I'm drawing a blank.

[islandgal140]

This season.. this season... FIRING ON ALL CYLINDERS. It is what everything has been leading up to but my heart can't take the inevitable tragedy. Never thought to be so engrossed by a story I already know the outcome of. It is a bit like watching the Titantic for me. I know the ship is gonna sink and many will die but I keep hoping for a different outcome when really there is only one way for this thing to end. BADLY! 

 

There was something a bit charming and funny about Chick and Norma in the diner when he remarks about how he likes the way she poses or something.

[DonitsYum]

Can  someone remind me what's in the letter from Emma's mom? I'm drawing a blank.

 

It was a plea to get back in her life, I believe.  She had it on her when she went to the hospital and was kicked out by Emma's dad. 

[Timetoread]

/d

Edited April 21, 2016 by Timetoread

[truthaboutluv]

Can  someone remind me what's in the letter from Emma's mom? I'm drawing a blank.

 

I'm pretty sure it's nothing incriminating and just personal stuff about her and Emma's relationship. The contents of the letter isn't what is significant IMO. It's the fact that the letter is there at all, hidden in the house, along with the teddy bear. Because remember Dylan met Emma's mom at the hospital, saw her with that stuffed bear and knew she wanted to leave a letter to Emma. So finding them naturally raised the suspicions in him because why would these things she wanted to give Emma be there in Norma's house?

 

I have to watch this episode again because I was distracted with work and was honestly just half paying attention. I did catch a few significant scenes so a few comments - yes, Chick is an asshole but damn if I didn't crack up at his "WTF" expression when Norma went full patented Norma crazy on him on the pier. It reminded me of his snarky, "well a tad melodramatic" comment to Caleb when Caleb threatened his life if he found out Chick was setting him and Dylan up. 

 

While I didn't really see the whole episode, I caught two of the most powerful scenes I assume, from the episode. One, Norma telling Romero the truth about her past with Caleb. I knew he wouldn't leave just because that is exactly what Norma expected but that was a really, really heavy and emotional moment. Yes, Romero is no saint with his numerous murders but finding out your partner/spouse had an incestuous past with their sibling is still something that would be hard for most people to wrap their head around and whether they meant to or not, not be judgemental in some way. So kudos to him for still loving Norma in her fucked-upness and not judging her. 

 

The second scene I saw was Norman's therapy session and what might have been one of the most disturbing things I've seen on television so far this year. I'm sorry, I accept that Norman is totally insane and needs to never be let out among sane people but episodes like these are why I can never just flippantly dismiss him as a monster, end of story. No child should have to be under a bed hearing their mother be raped. And when he grabbed Norma's hand, what she should have done is somehow get him out of the room. Yes, I know her husband was an abusive, violent asshole who maybe would not have stopped but she could have yelled for Norman to get out of the room. Instead, she holds onto his hand for support which was perfectly indicative of the relationship they eventually fostered. Norma made Norman her protector and that was not fair to him who was just a kid and dealing with his own traumas of living in that horrible home situation with her and his abusive father. 

 

Finally, the therapy scene just further confused me about this whole idea of Norma not visiting Norman. Mother showed up in the therapy and very adamantly told Norman to stop speaking to the therapist. The therapist himself, when informing Norman about the existence of Mother, told him he thinks she shows up because she doesn't want Norman talking to him. Yet the scene of Norman and Norma outside, when Norman says the therapist was asking a lot of personal questions, Norma's reaction was, "well that's his job, Norman. He's just trying to help you." Again, I just cannot reconcile that scene with that person being the Mother who exists in Norman's head. It doesn't add up IMO. 

 

I'll continue to be the lone voice of dissention here.  She didn't WRONG him.​

 

She didn't wrong him, but IMO, she failed him as a parent. And yes, just like her parents failed her and Caleb failed her as the person who was supposed to be her big brother protecting her and instead he violated her. And her husband failed her too. So yes, Norma suffered immense trauma and in many ways was a victim herself but that doesn't mean she didn't fail Norman as a parent. I don't question that she loves him and on some level thought she was doing what was best for him but in the end, she didn't and it's all sadly too late, which as I've always said is why this show is so amazing and powerfully tragic. 

Edited April 19, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[peacheslatour]

Timetoread, you are not alone. I agree with everything you wrote. Blaming Norma for Norman's psychosis when she was hardly more than a child herself when her life began snowballing out of control is victim blaming of the highest order. She is mentally ill  and apparently so is the rest of her fucked up family. Dylan, child of incest, oddly enough seems to be the only sane one.

[TattleTeeny]

I'm pretty sure it's nothing incriminating and just personal stuff about her and Emma's relationship. The contents of the letter isn't what is significant IMO. It's the fact that the letter is there at all, hidden in the house, along with the teddy bear. Because remember Dylan met Emma's mom at the hospital, saw her with that stuffed bear and knew she wanted to leave a letter to Emma. So finding them naturally raised the suspicions in him because why would these things she wanted to give Emma be there in Norma's house?

 

Thank you--the bolded part clears it up for me!

 

I'll continue to be the lone voice of dissention here.  She didn't WRONG him.​

 

I think that whether or not it was someone's intention or fault, a person can indeed wrong you.

[truthaboutluv]

For the record, I don't blame Norma for Norman's psychosis. The fact that Norman suffered blackouts makes it clear something is chemically imbalanced in him and a person cannot make another mentally ill, which is what Norman is. However, yes, I do blame Norma for actions she took with regard to raising Norman. Such as, NOT getting him tested and checked out for his blackouts, NOT reporting his murder of his father and covering it up, NOT reporting Keith's assault against her and her murder of him and instead dragging Norman into helping her cover it up, having little boundaries with Norman especially when he got to a very confusing age for a boy sexually, treating his attempts at making friends and having a life as him abandoning her so he was made to feel guilty for those things. Yes, she is a victim but as she said, she didn't break and she's still standing and she could have determinedly worked to give Norman something different than she had.

 

Instead, she held onto him like he was her life preserver and in the end created a very unhealthy co-dependent relationship and environment for him. And when he started getting sicker and sicker and people around her was noticing and telling her, she was still burying her head in the sand and not getting him help. YMMV, I don't think Norma is a bad person, I don't question that she loves Norman in her own way and I absolutely sympathise with her pain and traumas but I'm sorry, I do think she failed Norman. But again, this is why this story is so tragic because these things usually are a cycle of dysfunction that just goes on and on. At this point Dylan could break it but who expects him to make it out alive. 

Edited April 19, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[Fable]

What a fantastic episode.  This one was like the calm before the storm, and like others, my heart broke a little knowing what is to come. 

 

Kenny Johnson is absolutely perfect casting for Caleb.  Caleb and Dylan share many of the same mannerisms and speech patterns.  Even their voices sound alike.

[Timetoread]

d

Edited April 21, 2016 by Timetoread

[ari333]

What is that legal term for a situation in which a person threatens another person. One tells the other that if you don't do such and such, that he/she will tell some terrible thing. TIA

Romero's "OK..... where we goin" made me  have something in my eye.

Edited April 19, 2016 by ari333

[Spartan Girl]

For the record, I don't blame Norma for Norman's psychosis. The fact that Norman suffered blackouts makes it clear something is chemically imbalanced in him and a person cannot make another mentally ill, which is what Norman is. However, yes, I do blame Norma for actions she took with regard to raising Norman. Such as, NOT getting him tested and checked out for his blackouts, NOT reporting his murder of his father and covering it up, NOT reporting Keith's assault against her and her murder of him and instead dragging Norman into helping her cover it up, having little boundaries with Norman especially when he got to a very confusing age for a boy sexually, treating his attempts at making friends and having a life as him abandoning her so he was made to feel guilty for those things. Yes, she is a victim but as she said, she didn't break and she's still standing and she could have determinedly worked to give Norman something different than she had.

 

Instead, she held onto him like he was her life preserver and in the end created a very unhealthy co-dependent relationship and environment for him. And when he started getting sicker and sicker and people around her was noticing and telling her, she was still burying her head in the sand and not getting him help. YMMV, I don't think Norma is a bad person, I don't question that she loves Norman in her own way and I absolutely sympathise with her pain and traumas but I'm sorry, I do think she failed Norman. But again, this is why this story is so tragic because these things usually are a cycle of dysfunction that just goes on and on. At this point Dylan could break it but who expects him to make it out alive. 

That's exactly how I feel.  I feel terrible for everything that happened to Norma, but that does not excuse her from the consequences of her own actions.

[Timetoread]

d

Edited April 21, 2016 by Timetoread

[TattleTeeny]

I disagree. The connotation of the verb "to wrong" is that there is intent.  Just like intent to kill vs accidentally killing have different words and meanings in court.  In the end somebody is dead, but how we evaluate the actions of the person that caused it is subjective.

 

Well, to employ a phrase I hate, agree to disagree. Plus, both scenarios you cite above end up with someone dead (wronged); the evaluation of how and why is an entirely separate issue.

 

If I run you over with my car by accident, I have wronged you whether I intended to or not. If a cashier shortchanges me, s/he has wronged me. If a physician misdiagnoses you because of faulty equipment, s/he has wronged you. If someone is completely drunk and punches out a car window, s/he has wronged the owner of the car. And, because Norma didn't take the proper measures regarding Norman's mental health, she has inadvertently wronged him.

 

It was the best that she could do - better than a lot actually.  Better than she got.  It wasn't enough, but not enough doesn't mean she wronged him.

 

By this rationale, no one would, say...get tickets for running a stop sign that they couldn't see due to the sun's glare or a previously unknown hereditary vision issue. And crimes would be forgiven of those who had worse crimes committed upon them.

Edited April 19, 2016 by TattleTeeny

[FurryFury]

I will NEVER EVER blame a women being RAPED for not managing to get her child in a safe place. Holy freakin' shit, she was being RAPED! This is not a situation you have ANY control over. Yeah, it fucked Norman up majorly - but so did his father being a dangerous rapist and beater and alcoholic and who knows what else. He's to blame here, not Norma, who was abused for years, first by her family and than by Sam. 

[TattleTeeny]

Is that ^ to me? I never blamed anyone for being raped, and never would.

[Nutjob]

 

What is that legal term for a situation in which a person threatens another person. One tells the other that if you don't do such and such, that he/she will tell some terrible thing. TIA

Extortion? Although that usually applies to someone keeping secrets in exchange for money... the definition could apply here, too, though.

 

That scene... ugh. I couldn't wrap my head around that entire scene with Norman's father and how anyone comes out of that halfway sane. We already knew some of the trauma Norma had suffered, but now we get the extent of it, and how much of it Norman suffered with her. And while I agree it was completely screwed up of her to use Norman for support in that situation, Norma had already suffered years of abuse and trauma at the hands of her parents and Caleb. She was already messed up, and I think it's too much for me to expect her to handle anything like that the "right way."

[FurryFury]

Is that ^ to me? I never blamed anyone for being raped, and never would.

 

 

No, I was speaking about this quote.

No child should have to be under a bed hearing their mother be raped. And when he grabbed Norma's hand, what she should have done is somehow get him out of the room.

[FanOfTheFans]

This season.. this season... FIRING ON ALL CYLINDERS. It is what everything has been leading up to but my heart can't take the inevitable tragedy. Never thought to be so engrossed by a story I already know the outcome of. It is a bit like watching the Titantic for me. I know the ship is gonna sink and many will die but I keep hoping for a different outcome when really there is only one way for this thing to end. BADLY! 

 

There was something a bit charming and funny about Chick and Norma in the diner when he remarks about how he likes the way she poses or something.

You make a great point about Chick being charming. He is a smart guy and has honed the craft of getting to the heart of the matter. He figures people out quickly but instead of having the ability to empathize, he tortures them and gets off on watching them twist in the wind. It makes him even scarier that he has an ability to be charming when needed.

I've seen the actor (Rick Hurst) in movies and he usually plays a good guy. The show has done such a good job making him creepy, just by his appearance alone. The limp and cane, the scraggly beard, all just notch the creep factor up. But very nuanced acting IMO to make the character a full blown sociopath.

Add to the story that the character is obviously artistically talented and could use his abilities to make a honest living if he wanted to. I love how the show subtly pulls those little gems out too by having Norma ask about him making his cane. Great writing.

[peacheslatour]

 

She just didn't know any better - being mentally ill herself.  And BTW - she does get punished for her "crime" of faulty parenting - she gets the death penalty.  We can all rejoice that justice has been served.

Well said.

[Chaos Theory]

I don't blame Norma at all. Seeing even a little bit of her past makes me blame her even less. Did she smother her son a little too much? Probably. Should she have gotten him help before things got out of control? Almost definetly. But it is looking more and more like Mother has always been a part of Norman so my question now is when did Norma become aware that something was wrong with her son beyond "Blackouts" and headaches. Because if she became aware of how troubled Norman really was after he killed her husband I don't blame her for not turning him in.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[Mabinogia]

Norma Bates is one of the most tragic characters I have ever seen.

 

It's funny because I took the hand holding scene, during the rape, as Norma comforting Norman. Kind of, "It's okay, I'm here, I'm okay, we'll get through this". I do not at all see what she was supposed to do to get him out of there while her husband was violently raping her. He might have seen Norman trying to leave and done something terrible to him. It was best to just hold his hand and let him know they will get through this together. I thought it was a beautiful if horrific moment.

 

I'd almost say Norma is more damaged than Norman. She's been at it longer. My heart breaks knowing what is going to happen to her, and who is going to do it.

[Solzhenknitsyn]

I agree with Mabinogia. The hand-holding scene could be interpreted as Norman grabbing her hand for comfort because he was confused and frightened.

It could be interpreted as mutual comfort as well. I saw it as a continuation of the theme of "vulnerable people cling to each other in crappy situations, leading to unhealthy boundaries and unforeseen, life-changing consequences."

[TattleTeeny]

It's funny because I took the hand holding scene, during the rape, as Norma comforting Norman. Kind of, "It's okay, I'm here, I'm okay, we'll get through this".

 

I kind of saw it as coming from both directions--like Norman, even as a tiny little boy, was trying to tell his mom the same exact thing by not only knowing to stay put, but by touching her hand. Maybe that was the moment that started Norma needing an almost parental guidance and support from Norman. 

[Chaos Theory]

I took the hold handing scene as s reiteration of the fact that Norma and Norman have always been the same person. When something bad happened to one it happened to the other.....until now. Something good is happening to Norma that Norman has no part of. Norma is growing while Norman is stuck in the past. For the first time they are different.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Chaos Theory

[truthaboutluv]

She had parents who never held her hand while she was being repeatedly raped for years.

 

YMMV but I don't think that was necessarily a good thing for Norman but okay. Also, I think many are forgetting that Norma's mother was also mentally unstable herself. So it wasn't just simply a matter of being a bad parent. 

 

As for that list of logical actions that a socially and mentally adjusted person takes when they see a red flag, she was never capable of any of that.  Not for herself and not for her sons.

 

Fair enough but here's the thing, I've seen Norman referred to as simply a monster a few times, especially with his murder of Bradley which yes, was very brutal and awful. And yes, Norma never got to the point of being a murderer (save for Keith who deserved it) like Norman but we have seen clear evidence that Norman has full on disassociative personality and does not know he's killing people and is very clearly unwell and yet he is considered a monster. So why then is any criticism of Norma excused with all she's been through, when similarly you can say the same for Norman.

 

And just to be very clear, lest my words get twisted into things I have never said, in no way am I saying that Norman is not completely dangerous and absolutely should be locked up. I am just saying that just like how people in Norma's life failed her in many ways, so did she as Norman's parent and pointing that out is not saying it is her fault he's a killer. It's saying she didn't always make the best choices for him as a parent and it all contributed to the reality they now live in. 

 

No, I was speaking about this quote.

QUOTE

No child should have to be under a bed hearing their mother be raped. And when he grabbed Norma's hand, what she should have done is somehow get him out of the room.

 

 

 

 

And speaking of having my words twisted. I specifically noted in my comment that I did not expect Norma's husband to stop if she asked him when she realized Norman was there or her to be able to get him to stop and I certainly did not blame her for being raped. However, I saw the scene as her holding onto her son for comfort to get through the horror that was happening to her and I didn't think that should have been on him. Yes, I thought yelling at him to get out of the room was probably better and someone pointed out that maybe the father would have attacked Norman and maybe so. It just seemed to me that the moment was indicative of what we have seen of their relationship over four seasons - that is, Norma leaning on Norman and I didn't think that should have been the case for a 5-year-old kid, especially during something that ugly and horrific. And just so we are very clear, that is NOT me blaming her for her being raped or blaming the victim. 

 

It's funny because I took the hand holding scene, during the rape, as Norma comforting Norman. Kind of, "It's okay, I'm here, I'm okay, we'll get through this". I do not at all see what she was supposed to do to get him out of there while her husband was violently raping her. He might have seen Norman trying to leave and done something terrible to him. It was best to just hold his hand and let him know they will get through this together. I thought it was a beautiful if horrific moment.

 

Now besides what I wrote above, I actually think this is a very legitimate interpretation and completely understand how some may have seen it that way. 

Edited April 19, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[Solzhenknitsyn]

I took the [hand-holding] scene as [a] reiteration of the fact that Norma and Norman have always been the same person. When something bad happened to one it happened to the other.....until now.

Oooh...intriguing theory! It dovetails nicely with Mother being part of Norman.

[ari333]

I get a little confused bc sometimes Norman sees and hears MOther and Mother is sitting beside Norman and he is interacting with her. Other times, he *IS* her and speaks as her.

Is it just me?

Did any of you think that Norman was going to crack Dylan over the head with that croquet mallet when he told him about Emma?

[Garden Wafers]

I took the hold handing scene as s reiteration of the fact that Norma and Norman have always been the same person. When sonething bad happened to one it happened to the other.....until now. Something good is happening to Norma that Nornan has no part of. Norma is growing whileNorman is stuck in the past. For the first time they are different.

 

Agreed about the shared experience aspect of the hand holding situation. It made me wonder if perhaps Norman had been a victim of sexual abuse as well considering the earlier scene in Dr. Edwards' office: he's afraid of being caught by his father at night while getting a glass of water, Sam confesses that he "loves" Norman, and then cut back to Dr. Edwards telling a tearful Norman that he's just an observer and can leave at any time. 

 

So I interpreted the scene as Norma trying to comfort her young son and maybe hoping that he was too young to realize what was going on, while Norman was comforting his mother because he understood all too well what was happening to her. Or I could have completely misinterpreted the earlier scene.

[TattleTeeny]

Did any of you think that Norman was going to crack Dylan over the head with that croquet mallet when he told him about Emma?

 

I didn't think he would do it...but I that The Shining did come to mind (although that was, I think, a roque mallet). 

[truthaboutluv]

I get a little confused bc sometimes Norman sees and hears MOther and Mother is sitting beside Norman and he is interacting with her. Other times, he *IS* her and speaks as her.

 

I am no expert but I think when Norman is seeing Mother and talking to her, he's already disassociating and likely not fully present anymore. That's why it was so easy for her to take over when the doctor told him to tell Mother that he wanted to talk to her. Similarly, when the farmer guy found him in the season premiere. The doctors later told Norma that Norman was found in an agitated, unstable state. He wasn't fully aware or conscious of himself and reality. I don't think Norman only loses time when he fully becomes Mother.

Edited April 19, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[ari333]

I am no expert but I think when Norman is seeing Mother and talking to her, he's already disassociating and likely not fully present anymore. That's why it was so easy for her to take over when the doctor told him to tell Mother that he wanted to talk to her. Similarly, when the farmer guy found him in the season premiere. The doctors later told Norma that Norman was found in an agitated, unstable state. He wasn't fully aware or conscious of himself and reality. I don't think Norman only loses time when Mother appears. 

 

I see your point. I think it is interesting that he sees her as a seemingly separate entity at times. Then other times he *is* her. He doesn't seem to recall the times that he IS her, but can seem to recall when he sees her.  I see these as separate things;

but as you mentioned , maybe one just precedes or melds into the other? IDK what Im saying.

[truthaboutluv]

I see your point. I think it is interesting that he sees her as a seemingly separate entity at times. Then other times he *is* her. He doesn't seem to recall the times that he IS her, but can seem to recall when he sees her.  I see these as separate things;

but as you mentioned , maybe one just precedes or melds into the other? IDK what Im saying.

 

No, I get your confusion. They've mentioned the blackouts and the understanding by many of multiple personality disorder is that the individual becomes another personality and has no memory of it. However, we see moments when Norman is talking to Mother versus him BEING Mother. And again, I'm just guessing here, but I think it is because even in the moments when he's seemingly talking to her, he's already no longer fully conscious and is already slipping into a disassociative state. 

 

A perfect example of this is the situation with Ms. Watson. The last thing we see before Norman is running home in the rain and later Ms. Watson's dead body is Mother and Norman having a conversation, where Mother is telling him what kind of woman would be undressing with her teenage student in her house and the door not closed. And then she tells Norman he knows what he has to do and we see Norman get up from the couch. When Norman gets home and Norma asks him what's wrong, since he's running like a crazy person in the rain, he tells her he doesn't know. That the last thing he remembered was walking in the rain and then he was running home. So he forgot everything from the moment Ms. Watson picked him up and later everything that happened at her house. 

 

Now obviously, even if he forgot about killing her, he could have been lying about going to her home because he didn't want Norma to know. And Ms. Watson did tell him not to tell anyone he was there. However, subsequent things made me think he was telling the truth. And so I always saw that as an example of where he began disassociating long before Mother physically appeared and was already losing time even before she completely took over. 

Edited April 19, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[Solzhenknitsyn]

No, I get your confusion. They've mentioned the blackouts and the understanding by many of multiple personality disorder is that the individual becomes another personality and has no memory of it. However, we see moments when Norman is talking to Mother versus him BEING Mother. And again, I'm just guessing here, but I think it is because even in the moments when he's seemingly talking to her, he's already no longer fully conscious and is already slipping into a disassociative state.

I imagine it's possible to have dissociative identity disorder with psychotic features, such as auditory/visual hallucinations. Plus, of course, a touch of psychopathy, to account for Mother's murderous bent.

[peacheslatour]

O.k., obviously we know that Norman had an unendurably horrific childhood. We saw what his father did to his mother and how Norman ended up killing him. All perfectly understandable. But, I wonder if they will show that Norman was "dangerously disturbed" when has very young or if his psychosis is a product of his environment. Can a person with no chemical imbalance be driven the to kind of homicidal madness Norman displays just by having a fucked up childhood? I would think not.

[Timetoread]

/

Edited April 21, 2016 by Timetoread

[Anela]

I think I'm in love with Romero. I hate that she's finally found a healthy relationship (as far as we know, unless something changes - I was afraid he was using their marriage for his own purposes, at first - something to do with that money), and that it won't end well. 

 

I understood her freaking out on Dylan, because she was already freaked out by what that guy was threatening to do to her, and she thought she would lose everything/everyone. 

[truthaboutluv]

He is not just insane, his is homicidally insane.

 

Well yes, of course he is homicidally insane...he's murdered people. And I and I don't think anyone else, has ever denied that. I have stated repeatedly that Norman needs to be institutionalized permanently because at this point he is too far gone to be saved. The "issue" here if you will is whether or not his path to being a homicidal maniac was simply a case of him being a monster or rather a series of circumstances, experiences and situations brought him there. 

 

And my point is and remains that if one can defend every bad decision Norma made in regards to Norman as his parent, on the fact that she's been abused and traumatized, why then is he simply a monster, period and nothing more. Why is Norman not given the benefit of all the shit HE experienced, like being present when Norma was being raped and abused, being sexually assaulted by Ms. Watson (I think many forget that little fact that Norman, as a minor, was raped by Ms. Watson), being dragged in as an accomplice to a murder, being kidnapped and stuffed in a box because of Dylan's drug activites, etc. Oh and let's not forget Norma's dating the sex trafficker who then tried to kill her, Norman and Dylan. Yeah that's really a normal life for anyone to deal with. 

 

That mother would want to kill people who are putting Norman in mortal danger would make sense, but Mother simply kills because she considers her victims "beneath", "less than", "dirty" or a threat to expose

 

Norman has murdered his father, Ms. Watson, Bradley and Emma's mother. I'm not sure he was fully Mother yet when he killed his father but I certainly would not attribute that killing to simply thinking his victim was beneath him or less than, etc. That murder happened when Norman went into a blacked-out rage listening to his father beat the shit out of his mother. Ms. Watson was killed while she was sexually assaulting Norman who by that point we had already seen the beginnings of his confusion with regard to sex and woman, yes in parts because of his relationship with Norma. Bradley was murdered because in Mother's view she was trying to take Norman away from her. Emma's mother was murdered because Mother thought she was a horrible mother who abandoned Emma. In none of these instances did I see a simple dismissal of these people as "beneath", "less than" or "dirty". Yes there were elements of that but they were in regard to a larger context. 

 

The Real Norma is nothing like that.  She has an explosive temper when cornered but the harshest thing I've seen her do is slap Dylan - and, oh yeah, Romero (but that was just foreplay for him).  Where did Norman get this from?  He got it from himself.

 

I beg to differ. Mother is obviously an exaggerated version of Norma so obviously, the real Norma is not murderous and going around killing people but to say she is nothing like that is untrue. One of the first times we get Norman morphing into Mother is when he quotes word for word what Norma said about Bradley. It's the scene after he goes to Bradley's house and she tells him she just wants to be his friend. When he walks away and she chases him down and he starts telling her she's not a very nice girl...that's all Norma's words.

 

And let's mention the fact that twice, when Norman went off to be with Bradley, something bad happened to Norma - she was assaulted by Keith and then later arrested for his murder and both times she made Norman feel guilty for not being there. She yells at him about not being there when Keith assaulted her, after Norman knocks him out with the pan. Who puts that kind of guilt on their teenage kid for simply going off and doing what normal teenage boys do? Then there was her rage, to the point of shoving him out of her car in the middle of nowhere, simply because he was off getting laid when she got arrested. And incidentally arrested for a murder she did commit and for which he told her to call the police.

 

Norma did help manifest this Madonna vs. Whore, nice girl v. slut complex in Norman. And then there was the creepy weirdness of their relationship that further confused the whole thing in his head. So no, I don't agree that Mother is absolutely nothing like real Norma. She is harder, harsher and obviously more murderous than real Norma but the slut-shaming if you will, that is Norma and the protectiveness and need to hide things and hide truths about their lives, that is absolutely Norma. I mean this episode had her admitting that quality of herself when she finally broke down and told Romero the truth about her past. And more importantly, the fierce determination that it is "just the two of us..." again, that's the reality Norma fostered in Norman. 

 

eta: I have said before, I do think the writers have done a slight shift with Norma's character. Her kooky nuttiness is the same from the beginning but Norma was a lot harsher and critical back in Season 1 in my opinion, which is why I don't agree that Mother is this complete antithesis of her. Just re-watch the scene when Norman comes home late from school because he went to the tryout for the track team and Norma prepared a whole meal for them. First of all, the whole setting was weird because she got all dressed up and laid the table out like it was a romantic dinner in my opinion but then she was furious that he was late and very critically stared him down while Norman apologized. So no, I do not agree that Mother is nothing like real Norma. Maybe nothing like more vulnerable right now Norma. 

Edited April 19, 2016 by truthaboutluv

[peacheslatour]

 

Just re-watch the scene when Norman comes home late from school because he went to the tryout for the track team and Norma prepared a whole meal for them. First of all, the whole setting was weird because she got all dressed up and laid the table out like it was a romantic dinner in my opinion but then she was furious that he was late and very critically stared him down while Norman apologized. So no, I do not agree that Mother is nothing like real Norma. Maybe nothing like more vulnerable right now Norma.

This is very true. Looking at it this way one can see where Norman budding sexuality was twisted in a very specific way, Norma discouraged any normal feelings he was having as a young man. She didn't want him to ever be a man because she was terrified of losing her only "lover". And I don't mean that in a sexual context, but the only unconditional love she ever had. He loved her and she loved him. If he became a man, he would hurt her, just like every man she had ever known. Poor Norman, poor everyone.