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S01.E12: Thirty Nine Graves

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The students wake up to foggy memories and regret after a night of drinking; Penny reminds everyone that their lives depend on getting to The Neitherlands.
Edited by ElectricBoogaloo

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Weirdly, Syfy's youtube channel refers to this episode title as "Nine Graves" but everywhere else it's listed as "Thirty Nine Graves." Where are the other 30 people going, damn it?

 

Promo:

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Weirdly, Syfy's youtube channel refers to this episode title as "Nine Graves" but everywhere else it's listed as "Thirty Nine Graves." Where are the other 30 people going, damn it?

Cremation?

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Weirdly, Syfy's youtube channel refers to this episode title as "Nine Graves" but everywhere else it's listed as "Thirty Nine Graves." Where are the other 30 people going, damn it?

 

To find a more cheerful episode title?  

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I liked the episode. I was surprised by where it went, it was somewhat unexpected what twists and turns happened.

I agree with Quentin on the cheating front. Quentin made a mistake under the influence of some strong emotions and Alice slept with Penny to get back at him. I honestly didn't really like Q and Alice together that much so I'm fine with them being broken up . Penny seems to be a better match for her tbh. He doesn't put up with any if her self defeating behavior, which is a nice change from Q. Judging from his cute couple comment, Quentin agrees with me lol.

I'm still skeptical about the goddess stuff. It seems too easy. I didn't really enjoy Julia and Martin together. Something is off about him. I wish Katie had joined the rest of the group but I'm glad Q and Julia got some time alone to reconnect.

I find it very interesting that she was always supposed to be at Brakebills. I kind of wish we had actually seen it. It would have made her desperation to be there a lot more understandable imo.

Why is the dean so unhelpful? I find his character to be completely useless.

And Elliot. He was in my last nerve in this episode. He's managed to singlehandedly ruin every good plan the group has. Why did he even come if he is just going to try to get himself and everyone killed? Mike wasn't around long enough to be worth the amount of angst his death is warranting. It's annoying and it's making me hate Elliot. And he used to be one of my favorite characters.

Why did the librarian banish everyone? That didn't seem very fair. Last but not least I'm glad Penny killed that magician? She was so bloodthirsty. She seemed oddly surprised that Penny fought back though.

Edited by blugirlami21
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Heh, well much of that was unexpected, but it was fun.  Elliot's emotional agony is wearing for us all though.  Good heavens, because you ate a carrot, both Penny and Margo ended up having to kill people, so Elliot will soon have company in the existential angst department.  

 

Josh was....um...well.  Yes, I don't know what to say about his character just yet.  I did like the library custodian calling Margo "Janet" though, that was fun.  I do like the show's sense of humor, "I have to admit, you'd make a cute couple" from Spock Quentin was a nice bit of levity.  

 

So it's a time loop that's been broken, eh?  Interesting.  Plus, there's no way double-man-bun was up to anything resembling good.   

 

I actually think that the actors who play Quentin and Julia have really good acting chemistry (which is not an interchangeable concept with having romantic chemistry between their characters in this instance) and I like the scene where they just forgave each other.   At least now it makes sense why Julia didn't get in.  

 

I also just love Rick Worthy's Dean Fogg.  

Edited by stillshimpy
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I'm gonna need Elliot to be back to normal soon-ish. The alcoholic overly drugged Elliot is just a bore and not too entertaining. Burning the book and getting them kicked out of the library, fucking stealing a carrot that made him hallucinate and calling attention to them, ughh.

 

I also just love Rick Worthy's Dean Fogg.

I agree, he's a great character and the actor really makes his scenes interesting. I like The Librarian alot, a good recurring character and her wistfulness about all the places she'll never get to go or see was a nice quiet little bit with Penny. I really liked Alice and Quentin even though there was the occasional issue :( I hope this isn't the end of them together. Quentin in an asshole moment tries to call Alice out for the same thing he did..which, I'm glad she told him off for it. Yeah, he wasn't exactly himself and she did it because she was hurt, but even before the threesome, he was kind of a prick to Alice when she hadn't really done anything wrong. The scene where she is trying to work out their problem and then Penny gives her a pep talk showed that she still cares for Quentin, so I'm hoping it's not the end for them.

 

Julia taking ownership for her mistakes! Quentin admitting he made missteps! They're back to being friends :) I like Richard more and more but I'm pretty sure he's dead meat sooner or later, so I'm trying to not get too attached. Penny and Alice as genuine friends is a new development that I enjoyed seeing.

 

ETA: Alice is a badass bitch, and that small quick shot of her displaying her battle magic skills before they all hopped in the fountain at the end was awesome.

Edited by grandemocha
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Well that was interesting.

 

Elliot has become tedious. His drunken moping took a turn for the suicidal with psychedelic carrots during a dangerous stealth mission through enemy territory.

 

I did find Margot saying "Is it wrong that I'm starting to side with the Beast" hilarious in reference to Quentin blaming them for the accidental drunken threesome. 

 

I actually liked Julia this episode. It was good that she and Quentin admitted that they were both assholes and moved the hell on... That dead horse was becoming tedious. 

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So it's a time loop that's been broken, eh?  Interesting.  Plus, there's no way double-man-bun was up to anything resembling good.

Heh, I had to laugh because as soon as I saw him, I asked Mr. EB what was up with the double man buns! In a weird coincidence, I just finished reading the Miss Peregrine trilogy which also features time loops which need to be reset. What cracked me up is that Dean Fogg said Quentin has dosed him with truth serum 29 times but Quentin has died 39 times. So I guess it just took dying ten times for Quentin to figure out he needed to get information from Dean Fogg. Hee, and poor Dean Fogg tiring of Quentin's Groundhog Dag references!

 

I had no issue with Alice sleeping with Penny. She broke up with Quentin (due to HIS threesome) so she is free to do whatever she wants.

 

I love that when the librarian forced them to bring back their emotions, Margo was furious because she planned her entire outfit around wearing that red bottle of emotions. HA!

 

It sucks that all four of them were banished from the library for something that Eliot did. I wish one of them had asked the librarian to at least let Penny or Alice stay to do research since only Eliot broke the rules. Lesson learned: book burning is always bad!

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Heh, I had to laugh because as soon as I saw him, I asked Mr. EB what was up with the double man buns! In a weird coincidence, I just finished reading the Miss Peregrine trilogy which also features time loops which need to be reset. What cracked me up is that Dean Fogg said Quentin has dosed him with truth serum 29 times but Quentin has died 39 times. So I guess it just took dying ten times for Quentin to figure out he needed to get information from Dean Fogg. Hee, and poor Dean Fogg tiring of Quentin's Groundhog Dag references!

 

I also immediately thought of ymbrynes when I heard "time loops".  (I also need to pick up the third book.)

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So, something I was wondering about was the revelation that the only thing different this time around was that Julia wasn't at Brakebills but she was supposed to be? How is that possible? Jane/Eliza can't really control how Julia responded to the entrance exam, can she? Was that just something the show threw in to give the Julia character a little peace of mind so she could have her resolution with the whole Brakebills denial, she and Q could be friends again, and they could go to Fillory?

 

 

Was it a revelation or was it Quentin's read of the situation?

Good point!

Edited by grandemocha

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So, something I was wondering about was the revelation that the only thing different this time around was that Julia wasn't at Brakebills but she was supposed to be? How is that possible? Jane/Eliza can't really control how Julia responded to the entrance exam, can she? Was that just something the show threw in to give the Julia character a little peace of mind so she could have her resolution with the whole Brakebills denial, she and Q could be friends again, and they could go to Fillory?

 

Was it a revelation or was it Quentin's read of the situation?  We'll probably never know, as Eliza is supposedly dead (still not buying that) and he didn't ask the Dean.  This could just be another bit of Quentin's fanboy optimism combined with running back to his old crush how that he blew up the situation with his girl.

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We didn't see him ask Dean Fogg, but I think that it must have been part of the conversation we didn't see, because Quentin knew when he was supposed to die also and we didn't hear that either.   I liked it as an inclusion, because we don't know what it means yet.   Eliza/Jane couldn't know what it would result in, but since she also had magical powers she would be able to have some impact, plus, the Dean remembers everything, so it's pretty easy to figure out how Julia didn't get into Brakebills in the show, if that's the detail Jane changed -- which she might have because she felt Julia was powerful -- all she'd have to do is tell the Dean not to let her in.  We actually don't know what her test revealed, just that she didn't go on to the next step where she had to demonstrate ability.  She did have ability, so maybe the thing Eliza changed was telling Fogg to eliminate her in the first round.  

 

As another reader of Miss Peregrine's I also twigged to the "Oh....a Time Loop you say?  Watch your back, Peculiars!"  

 

 

 

It sucks that all four of them were banished from the library for something that Eliot did.

 

Elliot's devastation is wearing a little thin for me, but Margo is swiftly becoming a favorite.  I'm actually super pro-gun-control.  I hate guns, but I laughed like a lunatic at her delivery on the line, "Yes, I brought a gun to Fillory!  You're welcome."   I don't think that is an easy character to carry off and the actor is killing it as Margo.  

 

By the way, Dean Fogg has apparently been stuck in about the least interesting and horrifying Time Loop ever thought, because....oh my good, the poor man has also had his eyes plucked out 39 times!!! No wonder he was sort of turd to Quentin.  

 

I agree, Alice did nothing wrong and whereas Quentin really was fucked up beyond the telling of it, that doesn't get him off the hook entirely.  

 

Was it a revelation or was it Quentin's read of the situation?

 

Pretty sure it was a revelation, because we kind of have to conclude that there was much more to the conversation with Dean Fogg than we saw.  Quentin knows when he is supposed to die.  He presumably knows how.  But he also stated Eliza's reasoning that included things that Quentin didn't really know that Julia had been up to in her pursuit of more magic.  Mostly though, we didn't actually see Quentin leave Dean Fogg and since he knew more than we witnessed?  It's safe to conclude they kept talking and Fogg was still truth dosed.  So whatever he told him, is the truth as Fogg knows it.  

 

Also, only funny use of Hitler since The Producers and Mel Brooks.  "Thank God for Hitler!" "Yeah, no.  That still sounds bad."  

Edited by stillshimpy
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I really enjoy this show, but I often feel like the writers assume everyone watching has read the books. I feel like things are explained too briefly - or not at all - on occasion. It's like there are scenes missing that really aren't or something. And Quentin kind of swallows his words sometimes. Anyway, that brings me to ask...can someone please explain again to me why exactly they're going to Fillory? I think it's to find a knife of some sort, but that was explained so quickly that it didn't stick in my brain last week. 

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Alice sleeping with Penny was petty and hurtful but also, good for her. Quentin fucked up. That's what he gets. Could we get more flashbacks to the threesome though? Appreciate it!

 

Elliot's goodwill with me is going away fast. He needs to get his shit together already before he gets more people killed.

 

Margo's freak out over matching her outfit to the vial was pretty funny. As was her packing a gun. A little regular world weaponry coming to a land of magic, what could go wrong there? I wonder what else she has in that backpack.

 

Julia finally gets brought into the Brakebills stuff. I expect that time goddess spell and this broken time loop thing may also come together. I wonder where Kady went.

Edited by TiffanyNichelle
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Pretty sure it was a revelation, because we kind of have to conclude that there was much more to the conversation with Dean Fogg than we saw. Quentin knows when he is supposed to die.  He presumably knows how.  But he also stated Eliza's reasoning that included things that Quentin didn't really know that Julia had been up to in her pursuit of more magic.  Mostly though, we didn't actually see Quentin leave Dean Fogg and since he knew more than we witnessed?  It's safe to conclude they kept talking and Fogg was still truth dosed.  So whatever he told him, is the truth as Fogg knows it.  

 

I think you're making quite a few assumptions and logical leaps.  We in fact don't know what Eliza/Jane did or didn't do in regards to Julia.  We know she referred to "them" in the cold open of the pilot, but other than Quentin, it's never clear who the collective actually is.  Also, the way she stresses them "getting something under their belt" before the "he comes for them" is also indicative that she wasn't too concerned about Julia, otherwise she would have gone to the lengths she went to to keep Julia at Brakebills that she exercised for Quentin. Unless of course, the argument that Julia was right were Eliza wanted her, but if that's the case, why not exposite it properly?  

 

 

Elliot's devastation is wearing a little thin for me, but Margo is swiftly becoming a favorite.  I'm actually super pro-gun-control.  I hate guns, but I laughed like a lunatic at her delivery on the line, "Yes, I brought a gun to Fillory!  You're welcome."   I don't think that is an easy character to carry off and the actor is killing it as Margo.

 

You forgot when the Librarian calls her Janet.  Freaking awesome.

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.can someone please explain again to me why exactly they're going to Fillory? I think it's to find a knife of some sort, but that was explained so quickly that it didn't stick in my brain last week.

 

They are going to Fillory to confront the Beast who has been trying to kill Quentin and any friend that helps/defends him, and is also tormenting Penny mentally, which caused the other travelers to kill themselves. I believe the knife they are referring to is some sort of special knife akin to the one that the Beast used to try and kill Quentin via Mike, that actually got Penny and had the root-growing poison in it.

 

I thought the god-summoning bit by Julia and Co. was a bit anti-climatic, we hardly saw anything after all that build up.  I couldn't see what was different about the statute through the small piece of pink glass, anyone else catch it?

 

The show makes us assume the change made by Eliza/Jane was in fact Julia not going to Brakebills and instead becoming a hedge witch and learning different spells and different ways of doing things.  It sounds like she's going to do something to have a real impact on the confrontation with the Beast.  It does make you wonder what some of the other changes were.  And if Julia not being a Brakebills means that Quentin had to find his own way there on his own during past tries, or maybe it was Julia who held onto the map and it wasn't blown back into the fountain before.

 

Funny that Dean Fogg knew about the time travel and changes.  Guess that's how they knew that it was Alice and Quentin's spell that summoned the Beast before when Dean Fogg lost his eyes.  It would seem that the librarian must know about the time travel as well, since last week she addressed Penny telling him that he'd been there before.

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I think you're making quite a few assumptions and logical leaps.  We in fact don't know what Eliza/Jane did or didn't do in regards to Julia.

 

I disagree, Quentin shows up in possession of knowledge we didn't hear him learn.  Also, why in the world would he not continue to ask questions?  I think you're failing to follow through on what would be normal behavior in a situation a person with knowledge is given a truth serum.  Wouldn't you continue to ask as many questions as possible if your life was on the line?  I know I would.  

 

We didn't see Quentin conclude his conversation with Dean Fogg. We didn't actually see him leave.  Why are you assuming that he stopped there or didn't get more information? Quentin goes to Julia and says "That's what she changed" and then further says the reasoning behind Jane/Eliza making that change.  

 

Also, Quentin, who I grant you can be a bit thick, would still have to be a pure idiot to hear that Eliza made changes and not ask "What did she change this time?"  now it's possible that Fogg answers, "I don't know.  She never told me" and Quentin proceeded to guess.  However, we see Quentin show up at Julia's telling her, "This is what she changed, she thought you would explore magic more on your own and that would help" and his life hangs in the balance, so the fact that he didn't add anything like "I think" or in anyway indicate that he was guessing, but rather made statements indicates that he asked the guy he gave the truth serum too and was then told.

 

Thinking that Quentin is guessing, despite seeing him talking to someone in the know, who had ingested a truth serum, but was making guesses without calling them guesses is actually doing more logic backbends than seem necessary to me.  The simplest answer is usually going to be the right one.   Quentin gave Fogg truth serum.  Fogg told him Eliza changed things each time.   Logic dictates that he'd ask what she changed.  He shows up at Julia stating as fact what she changed.  

 

If he was making guesses and just asking for Julia's help, I doubt he would have been stating it as a certainty and furthermore he has an entire school's worth of magicians who are trained there....why would he go and seek out Julia, who he isn't speaking to at that time, rather try to get to the most powerful Magician he knows?  Who wouldn't be Julia.   It doesn't make any sense to go to Julia, who he has punished, who he knows was angry with him, who he also knows tried to harm him (and good on her for apologizing) , unless he has an actual reason to think she's the key?   I get what you're saying, but was also saw Fogg talking to Eliza in the pilot openly about what was happening.  

 

He's going to die if he's wrong.  Bad time to go tearing off on a guess, to ask for the help of someone that Quentin thinks is no longer pursuing magic (oh big one)  that actually makes very little sense as a guess to make.  

 

You forgot when the Librarian calls her Janet.  Freaking awesome.]

 

Fully agreed there, that was made of Awesometanium :-)  

Edited by stillshimpy
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I disagree, Quentin shows up in possession of knowledge we didn't hear him learn.  Also, why in the world would he not continue to ask questions?  I think you're failing to follow through on what would be normal behavior in a situation a person with knowledge is given a truth serum.  Wouldn't you continue to ask as many questions as possible if your life was on the line?  I know I would.  

 

Based on what?  That he went to go see his oldest friend/former crush after his girl slept with his frenemy and oh yeah, he might be killed at any point in time?  And really, what is the normal operating procedure when dealing with someone given truth serum?  I'm never sure what the acceptable societal standards are when it comes to this. ;)

 

 

We didn't see Quentin conclude his conversation with Dean Fogg. We didn't actually see him leave.  Why are you assuming that he stopped there or didn't get more information? Quentin goes to Julia and says "That's what she changed" and then further says the reasoning behind Jane/Eliza making that change.

 

I'm not assuming anything based on the simple fact that I don't know.  And until someone actually reveals what exactly went down in that conversation, we simply don't know. 

 

 

Also, Quentin, who I grant you can be a bit thick, would still have to be a pure idiot to hear that Eliza made changes and not ask "What did she change this time?"  now it's possible that Fogg answers, "I don't know.  She never told me" and Quentin proceeded to guess.  However, we see Quentin show up at Julia's telling her, "This is what she changed, she thought you would explore magic more on your own and that would help" and his life hangs in the balance, so the fact that he didn't add anything like "I think" or in anyway indicate that he was guessing, but rather made statements indicates that he asked the guy he gave the truth serum too and was then told.

 

Thinking that Quentin is guessing, despite seeing him talking to someone in the know, who had ingested a truth serum, but was making guesses without calling them guesses is actually doing more logic backbends than seem necessary to me.  The simplest answer is usually going to be the right one.   Quentin gave Fogg truth serum.  Fogg told him Eliza changed things each time.   Logic dictates that he'd ask what she changed.  He shows up at Julia stating as fact what she changed.

 

And Quentin's made definitive statements under stress and in life-and-death consequences that were completely and totally wrong before - think of when Penny had a freaking vine growing inside of him and the voodoo doll/effigy.  Important stuff, the deeper significance of it all went completely over his head.  And I agree, the simplest answer is the right one.  You think it's Quentin making and intelligent and effective interrogation of Dean Fogg, I think we simply don't know until we know.  

 

 

If he was making guesses and just asking for Julia's help, I doubt he would have been stating it as a certainty and furthermore he has an entire school's worth of magicians who are trained there....why would he go and seek out Julia, who he isn't speaking to at that time, rather try to get to the most powerful Magician he knows?  Who wouldn't be Julia.

And who exactly would that be?  Name a student who isn't on the Away Team and fighting "battle magic dick buckets" in the Neitherlands.  

 

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one, or at least put a pin in it and label it TBD. 

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And who exactly would that be?  Name a student who isn't on the Away Team and fighting "battle magic dick buckets" in the Neitherlands.

 

Mayokofksy.  Any of the professors.  Any people who were proximate to him.  To even draw the conclusion that Julia was the missing piece, he had to know she usually went with them.  Someone told him that, otherwise there would be no reason to leap to "Zounds, I bet it was Julia!" He had someone who knew things, right there, in front of him.  He concludes that Julia was excluded from Brakebills this time?  That doesn't track. 

 

Logic says he was told that, not that he guessed it.  

 

 

 

Based on what?  That he went to go see his oldest friend/former crush after his girl slept with his frenemy and oh yeah, he might be killed at any point in time?

 

You're missing a step here.  Quentin told Julia that this time Julia didn't get into Brakebills.  Out of every possibility that exists for Quentin to think of, why in the world would he leap to that one?  Quentin is convinced that Julia didn't have the goods, because he wanted to be for understandable reasons, but he has no reason to believe himself to be wrong about that.  Now, Dean Fogg, who again we didn't see the conclusion of that conversation and weren't led to believe it concluded at that moment, knows things like who normally went off to Fillory.    He told her he was there to get her help.   

 

I don't need to guess why he was there, because he stated that.  You're actually ignoring the dialogue to make it about something else that you're assigning to it.  Why would we conclude that Quentin was telling anything other than the truth? 

 

ETA:  Okay, to clear this up, I went back and watched the scene to listen to the dialogue.   At 24:30 Quentin tells her how many times she went to Brakebills and that "they" decided to have that be the thing they changed, so his language is unambiguous.   I can actually go and do a transcript of the dialogue, but it's not actually unclear.  

Edited by stillshimpy
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They are going to Fillory to confront the Beast who has been trying to kill Quentin and any friend that helps/defends him, and is also tormenting Penny mentally, which caused the other travelers to kill themselves. I believe the knife they are referring to is some sort of special knife akin to the one that the Beast used to try and kill Quentin via Mike, that actually got Penny and had the root-growing poison in it.

 

 

Thanks, Hanahope. I thought they were going to Fillory at this point expressly to get a certain knife that could kill the Beast and that they wouldn't be going there to confront him now if they had any other option besides this knife. I'm iffy on the specifics of said knife, however, and why they think it can kill the Beast. 

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I don't need to guess why he was there, because he stated that.  You're actually ignoring the dialogue to make it about something else that you're assigning to it.  Why would we conclude that Quentin was telling anything other than the truth? 

 

ETA:  Okay, to clear this up, I went back and watched the scene to listen to the dialogue.   At 24:30 Quentin tells her how many times she went to Brakebills and that "they" decided to have that be the thing they changed, so his language is unambiguous.   I can actually go and do a transcript of the dialogue, but it's not actually unclear.  

 

Unless Fogg explicitely said "I booted your friend because Eliza/Jane told me too, she was supposed to be here too" - which he did not, I still think you're making logical leaps.  Like I said, agree to disagree.  Or, stick a pin in it and label it TBD.

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Did anyone figure out what the title of the episode was all about? Was it referenced during the actual episode at all? I thought maybe it was 39 graves in reference to Josh and Victoria's fellow classmates that went to Fillory and got attacked by The Beast.

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Unless Fogg explicitely said "I booted your friend because Eliza/Jane told me too, she was supposed to be here too" - which he did not, I still think you're making logical leaps.  Like I said, agree to disagree.  Or, stick a pin in it and label it TBD.

 

Lemur, I think if you listened to the dialogue again you'd realize I'm really not leaping to anything because Quentin tells her what "they" did, which includes Fogg and Jane.    I think you just missed a line, but okay, I will move on.  

 

ETA: Saw your response in the book thread, and it is clear we are not going to find common ground here. You feel that I'm leaping to conclusions and I think you're just ignoring the text of the dialogue, so we each have a position from which we aren't budging on this.  That's cool, it happens.  

 

So we are going to have to agree to disagree entirely and adamantly, it seems.   At least barring further information, which is again, cool. 

Edited by stillshimpy

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Mod Note:
 
Happy to see that we're agreeing to disagree no matter how grudgingly. Let's leave it at that now please while it's still civil.
 
Onwards and upwards as they say.
 
Thanks!

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On an unrelated note. I liked Alice's light bending spell casting. Her specialty came in handy :P

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Did anyone figure out what the title of the episode was all about? Was it referenced during the actual episode at all? I thought maybe it was 39 graves in reference to Josh and Victoria's fellow classmates that went to Fillory and got attacked by The Beast.

This is the 39th iteration of the time loop and Quentin always dies.

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By the way, Dean Fogg has apparently been stuck in about the least interesting and horrifying Time Loop ever thought, because....oh my good, the poor man has also had his eyes plucked out 39 times!!! No wonder he was sort of turd to Quentin.  

 

 

Can a time loop actually constrain a super magician who lives in another dimension? That seems like a stretch. More likely, the Beast observes that Earth ( or more likely a small set of lifelines based on Earth) has reset, Again. Again? Again, *&^%$#@!!! So he keeps barging in and attacking, with greater and greater violence. Probably the first few times he was just content to throw the dean through a wall or something like that.

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Since we know that truth serum wasn't used every time, and each loop is not a complete loop in that something is different. We can probably guess that a few times he doesn't lose his eyes...but still, once would probably be enough.

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First off, can I just say that I have LOVED the last three episodes, and each has been better than the one before it. I loved this one and thought it was just gorgeously done by everyone involved.

 

When Julia smiled and grabbed Quentin's hand and they both looked toward the castle in Fillory, I felt like a kid again. It's every fantasy reader's dream, right there -- the magical world at your fingertips. The fact that it was Quentin and Julia, the two childhood friends who had once mapped out Fillory under a table in a blanketfort made it even sweeter.

 

I also love the way the show is edited. The fact that, for instance, we don't really see or hear Alice and Quentin's breakup argument -- it's so smart, because there's no need for a big huge scene of that. We knew the gist of what they said, of how they felt, and I thought it was brilliantly done. I also love the way the show manages to use editing to show us what they're thinking and feeling -- Quentin processing the complexity of the threesome of the night before was really interesting and poignant. Because Jason Ralph is such a good actor, you could actually see him going, "So... I had sex with her. And I had sex with him. Huh." etc.

 

I actually think that the actors who play Quentin and Julia have really good acting chemistry (which is not an interchangeable concept with having romantic chemistry between their characters in this instance) and I like the scene where they just forgave each other.   At least now it makes sense why Julia didn't get in.  

 

I agree, they're very believable and warm with each other, and they have a physical ease and intimacy that makes the idea that they've known each other since childhood almost tangible. I thought Julia was really lovely in the scene in which they forgave each other (Stella Maeve, the actress, always manages to convey a real sweetness and vulnerability in her scenes with Jason Ralph).

 

I'm gonna need Elliot to be back to normal soon-ish. The alcoholic overly drugged Elliot is just a bore and not too entertaining. Burning the book and getting them kicked out of the library, fucking stealing a carrot that made him hallucinate and calling attention to them, ughh.

 

I agree, he's a great character and the actor really makes his scenes interesting. I like The Librarian alot, a good recurring character and her wistfulness about all the places she'll never get to go or see was a nice quiet little bit with Penny. (snipped for space)

 

Julia taking ownership for her mistakes! Quentin admitting he made missteps! They're back to being friends :) I like Richard more and more but I'm pretty sure he's dead meat sooner or later, so I'm trying to not get too attached. Penny and Alice as genuine friends is a new development that I enjoyed seeing.

 

ETA: Alice is a badass bitch, and that small quick shot of her displaying her battle magic skills before they all hopped in the fountain at the end was awesome.

 

I don't really mind Eliot's despair thus far -- I find it really believable and incredibly sad. He had to kill the guy he'd fallen in love with. I can understand if he needs more than a week or two to get over that. And I think his actor, Hale Appleman, is absolutely amazing, as well. And there's something ironic about the fact that he's only there because he'll try anything and go anywhere to get away from himself, if that makes sense.

 

I loved Alice's conversation with Penny too (I loved that he was so open and warm with her -- but no kissage? Not even one? CURSES!), and LOVED seeing be the badass we all knew she could be with her magic. I also laughed out loud when Spock-Alice did the emotion-bottling spell then brightly said something to the effect of, "The way I was feeling, I would have gotten us all killed."

 

I also loved the librarian's scene with Penny -- I swear, Arjun Gupta has chemistry with EVERYONE. He shares a scene with someone and I pretty much automatically want him to kiss them. 

 

What cracked me up is that Dean Fogg said Quentin has dosed him with truth serum 29 times but Quentin has died 39 times. So I guess it just took dying ten times for Quentin to figure out he needed to get information from Dean Fogg. Hee, and poor Dean Fogg tiring of Quentin's Groundhog Dag references!

 

(snipped for space)

 

It sucks that all four of them were banished from the library for something that Eliot did. I wish one of them had asked the librarian to at least let Penny or Alice stay to do research since only Eliot broke the rules. Lesson learned: book burning is always bad!

 

I loved the entire scene with the Dean, especially that he is fully cognizant of suffering through it 39 other times (and that he evidently remembers that, despite the time loop). Rick Worthy manages to make the Dean remote, caring, weary, and (quietly) funny.

 

It's kind of hilarious that the most horrified noise I made in watching this episode was when Elliot burned the book.

 

Margo is swiftly becoming a favorite.  I'm actually super pro-gun-control.  I hate guns, but I laughed like a lunatic at her delivery on the line, "Yes, I brought a gun to Fillory!  You're welcome."   I don't think that is an easy character to carry off and the actor is killing it as Margo.  

 

By the way, Dean Fogg has apparently been stuck in about the least interesting and horrifying Time Loop ever thought, because....oh my good, the poor man has also had his eyes plucked out 39 times!!! No wonder he was sort of turd to Quentin.  

 

Pretty sure it was a revelation, because we kind of have to conclude that there was much more to the conversation with Dean Fogg than we saw.  Quentin knows when he is supposed to die.  He presumably knows how.  But he also stated Eliza's reasoning that included things that Quentin didn't really know that Julia had been up to in her pursuit of more magic.  Mostly though, we didn't actually see Quentin leave Dean Fogg and since he knew more than we witnessed?  It's safe to conclude they kept talking and Fogg was still truth dosed.  So whatever he told him, is the truth as Fogg knows it.  

 

I didn't think of that, but oh wow, poor Dean Fogg! Having to suffer all of that repeatedly each time -- the poor guy. And I got the same read on Quentin's talk with the Dean as well -- that the show simply cut away from a much lengthier conversation, in part for dramatic impact (so that we can see him tell Julia outright that she is the new element in this timeline), and also because I think the show is just really good at exactly this kind of thing. They don't show us everything. They don't tell us everything. I really enjoy that aspect -- it keeps me on edge, and anticipatory. I like that the producers give viewers credit for being smart, and that they skip the obvious most of the time.

 

And I did think it was a logical progression. Quentin asks what changed this time, then the next cut is that he's at Julia's door and telling her, "You were the thing they changed this time." I thought it was a great way to show not tell.

 

I also adore Margo (loved the sneaky book-shoutout to her as "Janet"), and think Summer Bishil brings so much humor and heart to her character. Margo could be a very difficult character to like, but there's something vulnerable, honest and funny about the way Summer Bishil plays her -- she's one of my favorite discoveries in the show.

 

Also, the way she stresses them "getting something under their belt" before the "he comes for them" is also indicative that she wasn't too concerned about Julia, otherwise she would have gone to the lengths she went to to keep Julia at Brakebills that she exercised for Quentin. Unless of course, the argument that Julia was right were Eliza wanted her, but if that's the case, why not exposite it properly?  

 

I think this is another example of the show not giving us all the information, and in ways that leave room for surprise and unexpectedness. I think that Eliza/Jane didn't micromanage Julia's rejection by Brakebills because I think that she's just trying to make big changes where she can, but that she's not all-powerful -- all she can do is simply try a new variation and hope it works. So Julia was still in danger plenty of times on this brand-new journey -- but so are they all, as long as the Beast exists. So I bought the implication that all Eliza could do was to make big changes here and there -- that she couldn't control the finer points.

 

Thanks, Hanahope. I thought they were going to Fillory at this point expressly to get a certain knife that could kill the Beast and that they wouldn't be going there to confront him now if they had any other option besides this knife. I'm iffy on the specifics of said knife, however, and why they think it can kill the Beast. 

 

The dialogue specified that the knife has the ability to "kill a god," so Quentin says that knowing that, if they can find it, it should be powerful enough to kill the Beast.

 

Can a time loop actually constrain a super magician who lives in another dimension? That seems like a stretch. More likely, the Beast observes that Earth ( or more likely a small set of lifelines based on Earth) has reset, Again. Again? Again, *&^%$#@!!! So he keeps barging in and attacking, with greater and greater violence. Probably the first few times he was just content to throw the dean through a wall or something like that.

 

This is a really interesting idea -- I kind of hope it's true for the Dean's sake! So maybe he didn't get his eyes plucked out every time (poor guy). I wonder if the Beast is outside of the time loop like the Dean and Eliza are/were.

 

I'm also incredibly hoping against hope that Quentin following Jane (Eliza) into Fillory will enable him to warn and perhaps save her from the future in which she was killed by the Beast. I really want Quentin to save Jane.

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I loved the entire scene with the Dean, especially that he is fully cognizant of suffering through it 39 other times (and that he evidently remembers that, despite the time loop). Rick Worthy manages to make the Dean remote, caring, weary, and (quietly) funny.

 

Rick Worthy is one of the unsung heroes of the Vancouver Acting Pool -- spot the BC actor games aplenty in this series, which is another reason I'm loving it, paramitch -- and he really does bring a lot to a role that requires the actor to know exactly who that man is.  He doesn't get a lot of dialogue, or screen-time, but he's playing a hugely important part in all of this.  

 

 

 

Probably the first few times he was just content to throw the dean through a wall or something like that.

 

Oh God, you're right, DR PEPPER that's an excellent point. Since Eliza had the ability to reset the loop,  I wonder if he's died a number of times also?  The loop is about stopping the Beast, so I wonder if there were times when The Beast managed to kill people in the classroom? Or other teachers?  Or any number of things?  

 

So that is a great point, but it made me wonder if it's actually been worse in other instances, instead less damaging.  Probably not though, since Dean Fogg knows what happened in 39 loops....although it might also be part of why he's only been dosed with truth serum 29 times.   By the way, that suggests something -- how in the world do you fall for the same ploy 29 times if you have freedom of movement within the loop?  

 

I don't know, but part of what made me think that "Oh crap, has he had his hands cut off and eyes plucked out 39 times?" was how freaking relieved Fogg sounded about being released from the loop.  He sounded weary and truly like he was just over having this conversation or variations of it.  

 

 

 

I don't really mind Eliot's despair thus far -- I find it really believable and incredibly sad. He had to kill the guy he'd fallen in love with. I can understand if he needs more than a week or two to get over that. And I think his actor, Hale Appleman, is absolutely amazing, as well.

 

Agreed, paramitch.  Hale Appleman is amazing, but the thing that bothered me was that ....just stay home.  For real, if the poor guy needs to crawl under the bed in a haze of drugs and alcohol, that's okay, but being a liability to everyone else's safety is what is wearing on me.  

 

 

 

It's kind of hilarious that the most horrified noise I made in watching this episode was when Elliot burned the book.

 

Right there with you, paramitch, but also the actor playing the librarian just sold the shit out of her horror at his action.  It actually made me wonder what burning the book of someone's life would do to them. 

 

 

 

Margo could be a very difficult character to like, but there's something vulnerable, honest and funny about the way Summer Bishil plays her -- she's one of my favorite discoveries in the show.

 

Plus, she's given much less material than the other principal players, so she has to create a full person and most of the characterization relies on her ability to deliver on inflection.  She's got the chops, that's for sure.  

 

I'm also incredibly hoping against hope that Quentin following Jane (Eliza) into Fillory will enable him to warn and perhaps save her from the future in which she was killed by the Beast. I really want Quentin to save Jane.

 

Right there with you.  In all of this, I feel so sorry for Jane/Eliza and Dean Fogg.  Dean Fogg has been trapped in a loop where everything stops at a certain point and then resets again, which would drive a person to actual, literal drink.   It also made me wonder how Dean Fogg viewed her death.  I mean, if she's the only other person in the know, he just lost his only peer for 39 resets.  

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My head is buzzing. what's the point of a spell that computes probable futures when you're in a time loop?

 

Well, the Brakebills group doesn't know about the time loop at that time.  And it does a great job of demonstrating probably some of those 39 times that Quentin died in prior tries.

 

Its a good point as to whether or not the Beast recognizes the time resets and thus reacts accordingly.  Perhaps that's why there are all the attempts to kill Quentin and Penny and other travelers that might have been various ways that the group or Quentin traveled to Fillory.  But at the same time, the Beast didn't kill Quentin in the classroom when he certainly had the opportunity to do so, so maybe he doesn't fully recognize the reset or doesn't realize exactly what Eliza/Jane is doing because, after all, the Beast has never actually died in any of the prior attempts.

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This is the 39th iteration of the time loop and Quentin always dies.

Oh yes! This was even mentioned in the episode, I don't know how I forgot that! Thank you! 

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What cracked me up is that Dean Fogg said Quentin has dosed him with truth serum 29 times but Quentin has died 39 times. So I guess it just took dying ten times for Quentin to figure out he needed to get information from Dean Fogg. Hee, and poor Dean Fogg tiring of Quentin's Groundhog Dag references!

My closed captioning said Quentin used the truth serum 27 times and died 39 times. So Quentin was even slower on the uptake. ;)

 

Based on conversations the Dean and Eliza had during the pilot, I think this current time, 40, is the first time he has lost his eyes. Eliza said it was happening faster this time and she didn't know the Beast would take his eyes.

 

 

Right there with you.  In all of this, I feel so sorry for Jane/Eliza and Dean Fogg.  Dean Fogg has been trapped in a loop where everything stops at a certain point and then resets again, which would drive a person to actual, literal drink.   It also made me wonder how Dean Fogg viewed her death.  I mean, if she's the only other person in the know, he just lost his only peer for 39 resets.

 

I loved the entire scene with the Dean, especially that he is fully cognizant of suffering through it 39 other times (and that he evidently remembers that, despite the time loop). Rick Worthy manages to make the Dean remote, caring, weary, and (quietly) funny.

This is all reminding me of Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" series where Ishamael no longer care about the Dark Lord winning or the Dragon (Rand) being defeated. He just wanted it all to end. He literally tries to blow everything up so he doesn't have to go through the Wheel again for the 1000(+) time. What is interesting is Plover, Prudence and the Housekeeper's children were also stuck in a time loop of sorts. So a time loop within a time loop? Now, Quentin and Julia have time traveled and followed the young Jane into Filiory. There are time paradoxes galore. I'm hoping Quentin and Julia can save adult Eliza/Jane too.

 

 

Right there with you, paramitch, but also the actor playing the librarian just sold the shit out of her horror at his action.  It actually made me wonder what burning the book of someone's life would do to them.

Again, referencing "The Wheel of Time", there was a concentrated beam of light that could burn someone's life thread out of the pattern so they no longer existed in the Wheel. I am guessing something similar goes on with the books. If someone's book is destroyed, then they no longer exist in any time frame, time loop, parallel universe, etc. Once their book is gone, they are gone forever. Hence, the Librarian being upset about the life being lost and banishing them.

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Based on conversations the Dean and Eliza had during the pilot, I think this current time, 40, is the first time he has lost his eyes. Eliza said it was happening faster this time and she didn't know the Beast would take his eyes.

 

Yeah, may have to see if I can find the shows to rewatch these episodes again, as much of that dialogue didn't make sense at the time, so I didn't pay as much attention to it.  I'd like to see it again in order fit it altogether.

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This was the first episode where I actually liked Julia. I think because she wasn't some strung out addict willing to screw anybody over to get what she wants, another hit of magic. And she wasn't with her little hippy commune. She was with Quentin and I could see, for the first time, the little girl in her that actually believed in magic. Up till now I just really didn't see the Julia who believed in magical things, like Fillory. It was nice to see her smile. I hope that she remains with the Brakebills side of things for a while because I much prefer the booze and drugs version of Hogwarts better than the dark underbelly Julia has been wallowing in.

I am thinking one of two things with Julia being the change in the time loop. Either her being at Brakebills means she didn't learn a different type of magic that will be necessary, it makes sense to want each of your little soldiers to have different skill sets, or her and Q going through this together made them weaker or something. Like, they had to be split. Or the rest of them kept dying so Jane wanted at least one of them separate in case she lost the rest again. lol

Margo is growing on me, as is the entire show (well, save Julia's old storyline which I hope we might be done with, at least for a while). I don't know when this went from a "why the hell am I watching this crap" to "ooh, I can't wait to see what happens next" but it did.

And yay Alice for getting some from Penny. I mean, who can blame her. That boy is FINE!

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The dialogue specified that the knife has the ability to "kill a god," so Quentin says that knowing that, if they can find it, it should be powerful enough to kill the Beast.

 

 

Thank you, paramitch!

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By the way, that suggests something -- how in the world do you fall for the same ploy 29 times if you have freedom of movement within the loop?

I don't have it to rewatch but I thought the dean said something like he "managed to slip it to him again". Implying each time Quentin truth serum-ed him, it was delivered via different means. So even if he knew about the loop, he could only prepare for when/where/how the truth serum came up before. But if Q went there at a different point or in a different place, harder to avoid. That's why he sounded so annoyed. He was actively trying to avoid it and failed again. At least this time he had the excuse of lack of eyes.
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I don't have it to rewatch but I thought the dean said something like he "managed to slip it to him again". Implying each time Quentin truth serum-ed him, it was delivered via different means. So even if he knew about the loop, he could only prepare for when/where/how the truth serum came up before. But if Q went there at a different point or in a different place, harder to avoid. That's why he sounded so annoyed. He was actively trying to avoid it and failed again. At least this time he had the excuse of lack of eyes.

 

There's also the possibility that each variation has commonalities like they all die or Quentin dies or the Beast attacks... but the details may vary from one variation to another so while Dean may expect Q to dose him, he's never sure when. The first time Q may have dosed him may have been on a Thursday and on the second time it might have been a Wednesday or a Friday. Also Dean may simply get chronic deja vu during the time loops or a vague sense of what has happened before rather than an extensive recall of the events. Or Jane may have told him the details at the start of the loop for things he was responsible for changing. Hard to tell at this point. 

 

It does explain why the Dean has been so weary of talking to Quentin and the other students from the very beginning. He's just weary of going through losing his students over and over again and being unable to fight back effectively. 

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I don't have it to rewatch but I thought the dean said something like he "managed to slip it to him again". Implying each time Quentin truth serum-ed him, it was delivered via different means.

 

You're right , theatremouse, and I was assuming that each time the would leave Brakebills on roughly the same day, giving him a window to watch everything he ate and drank, but that's not necessarily the case and in fact, probably isn't if The Beast has been getting stronger and new factors like Eliza being dead are introduced.  There wouldn't be anyway for Dean Fogg to anticipate it every time.  

 

I was just sort of caught off-guard by "You're drinking a cup of tea, in front of a student who has dosed you 28 prior times, isn't that the time that you need to be on-guard?"  but if he has no idea when the date will be he wouldn't realize until after he's spilling the beans once again.  

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I'm really not minding Eliot's despair and self-destructiveness. It's utterly true to the character and always has been. He drank too much when he was happy. When he's in despair and mourning (much less mourning the death of a lover he had to kill himself)? It would take a Lake Erie of vodkaness.

 

So I totally get it. It moves me, honestly. So often in TV or movies, we don't see people actually mourn. It's one of the many reasons I adore the film of "The Fellowship of the Ring" -- the moment when the fellowship falls to pieces at

the death of Gandalf, and we see everyone weep over it

. How many times do we get to see that? So I get that poor Eliot is struggling with the loss, with what he did, and with his utter sense of desolation at what he discovered about himself.

 

Another little moment I loved in this episode was the one in which (scarily), the Double-Man-Bun guy told Julia, "You can't unring a bell. So be sure." It was both fascinating and chilling. I've loved seeing Julia come into her own, and her determination to heal people and help others is exactly what I wanted to see (versus the Magic/Addiction trope). It also allows the actress Stella Maeve opportunities to even smile occasionally, so I love all of that.

 

Rick Worthy is one of the unsung heroes of the Vancouver Acting Pool -- spot the BC actor games aplenty in this series, which is another reason I'm loving it, paramitch -- and he really does bring a lot to a role that requires the actor to know exactly who that man is.  He doesn't get a lot of dialogue, or screen-time, but he's playing a hugely important part in all of this.  

 

I have adored Rick Worthy since his teeny role in While You Were Sleeping. He managed to bring so much humor and charm to a somewhat thankless minor role, and enough so that I always remembered him. I also loved him in "BSG" and "The Man in the High Castle," so I'm always so happy to see he's working. I loved seeing him show up here.

 

Right there with you, paramitch, but also the actor playing the librarian just sold the shit out of her horror at his action.  It actually made me wonder what burning the book of someone's life would do to them.

 

 

Mageina Tovah  is a wonderful HitG character actress. She's so unique -- she can be ugly or beautiful as needed and even old or young. She has been in a ton of stuff and is just wonderful. I've loved her in the show and thought she brought a beautiful depth and humor to the Neitherlands Library.

 

Right there with you.  In all of this, I feel so sorry for Jane/Eliza and Dean Fogg.  Dean Fogg has been trapped in a loop where everything stops at a certain point and then resets again, which would drive a person to actual, literal drink.   It also made me wonder how Dean Fogg viewed her death.  I mean, if she's the only other person in the know, he just lost his only peer for 39 resets.

 

 

I do too, and I think the show has been very subtle and effective in showing that the two of them were kind of this island of stillness in the storm, and now we know why. The actors even managed to communicate a lovely kind of friendship and closeness and believable irritability (no wonder if they've kept on trying and trying and trying this) too. I so badly want them to save Jane. Save JANE, Quentin!!

 

I am thinking one of two things with Julia being the change in the time loop. Either her being at Brakebills means she didn't learn a different type of magic that will be necessary, it makes sense to want each of your little soldiers to have different skill sets, or her and Q going through this together made them weaker or something. 

 

This is what I think -- that Julia's literally being outside the box means that she acquires the special skills and wild magic that will help them save themselves or call upon outside resources Brakebills simply doesn't have.

 

Thank you, paramitch!

 

You're very welcome! :-) I'm a geek and am here to help.

 

You're right , theatremouse, and I was assuming that each time the would leave Brakebills on roughly the same day, giving him a window to watch everything he ate and drank, but that's not necessarily the case and in fact, probably isn't if The Beast has been getting stronger and new factors like Eliza being dead are introduced.  There wouldn't be anyway for Dean Fogg to anticipate it every time.  

I was just sort of caught off-guard by "You're drinking a cup of tea, in front of a student who has dosed you 28 prior times, isn't that the time that you need to be on-guard?"  but if he has no idea when the date will be he wouldn't realize until after he's spilling the beans once again.  

 

Here's my thought: the Dean is, to some degree, actively collaborating with Quentin. He isn't hyper-vigilant about being dosed, because honestly, being dosed is in his best interests. He needs to be dosed. He needs Quentin to know what he knows, but only at the right time. 

 

So at a certain point in every time loop, he has to consciously or subconsciously arrange events so that he will be dosed with truth serum, and so that he will tell Quentin the truth at that moment because that is when Quentin shows that he is prepped and ready to receive and use that truth.

Edited by paramitch
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 I have adored Rick Worthy since his teeny role in While You Were Sleeping. He managed to bring so much humor and charm to a somewhat thankless minor role, and enough so that I always remembered him. 

Ha, me, too! I saw that movie when it first came out, before it was easy to look actors up but I always remembered him. He's the only reason I started watching this (still bitter about Being Human and wasn't a fan of the books). So glad he lured me in. Most  cast members are wonderful. 

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That was a great episode. The writers threw a lot at the viewers this episode. I really hope that there are some answers to the questions they brought up tonight. Did the Dean ever say exactly how many iterations of the time loop were there? If there were 39 then it would seem Jane re-set the loop whenever Quentin was killed (although the other members could have always died as well). What I really want to know is why the hell Jane has such an interest in Quentin? She's apparently gone to great lengths to directly manipulate the lives of Julia, Alice, Penny, and him.* The first 3 make sense given that Penny's a Traveller, Alice seems to be an extraordinary magician, and so does Julia. Does Quentin have some untapped potential? 

 

Also, thank god Quentin and Julia's storyline finally merged. It's about time. I thought the actors had fantastic chemistry (platonic or romantic, take your pick) and the actors killed it in the scene where they forgive each other. I like Quentin/Alice, bit I wouldn't mind a Quentin/Julia hook-up. Especially since it seems this show will have a fairly liberal stance on sexual relationships. 

 

I'm wondering if that by the end of the season, the group (or, at least, some members of it) will reset the time loop that Jane created. That could be interesting. 

 

*I wonder if Margo and Eliot are more involved in this iteration because Julia never got into Brakebills. 

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Mageina Tovah is a wonderful HitG character actress. She's so unique -- she can be ugly or beautiful as needed and even old or young. She has been in a ton of stuff and is just wonderful. I've loved her in the show and thought she brought a beautiful depth and humor to the Neitherlands Library.

She will always be Glynis from Joan of Arcadia to me! She is always great no matter what the role but the librarian really felt like she could be a grown up version of Glynis - funny but serious, putting respect for knowledge and books above petty human stuff. Hard to believe she's almost 40!

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I do find it interesting that Jane was the person pulling the strings of our players, placing them in various combinations to win a war against the Beast. Guess all this time it was a matriarchy and not the patriarchy toying with Julia's life. 

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I'm not sure I'm team Julia yet, but she wasn't nearly as annoying this episode.  I think she had to not get into Brakebills because as Quinton pointed out she has always gotten exactly what she wanted.  Didn't Margo point out that magic comes from your stuggles, your pain?  Julia didn't have any of that because she was the special snowflake.  Maybe she needed to experience some pain and not get exactly what she wanted to be strong enough to face the beast with the others.

 

Oh, and if I were Alice, I'd do Penny in a heartbeat.

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I am not sold on the goddess thing, very much doubting that whatever presented itself in goddess format is one or is as beneficial as people seem to think. I am also not all that thrilled with Richard who might look rational but seems so deeply bent internally he'd easily lead them to something they really shouldn't be messing with.

 

Interesting that this was the "we won't tell you things directly but we might give you a glimpse" episode - the goddess appearing to them and sending them all (except Julia) off on missions, the fight between Quentin and Alice, the setup that the change was that Julia wasn't part of the Brakebills mix.

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