S04.E16: Broken Hearts

[statsgirl]

I find it interesting to compare the courtroom scenes with real life.  The Jian Ghomeshi ruling came down today (Ghomeshi was the host of the radio program Q and was accused of five counts of sexual assault).   The judge acquitted him because he couldn't convict him beyond a reasonable doubt because the four witnesses were less than credible.  He made it a point to say that that doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that he can't convict on the basis of these witnesses.

 

it makes ignoring Diggle and not putting Felicity on the stand even more absurd.

Ha, thanks! I had a feeling it was just gibberish, since a lot of prop stuff does tend to end up gibberish, but it's still interesting to me that someone has to sit down and write this stuff out.

During the BAFTA honouring of Downton Abbey, one of the actors (Hugh Bonneville I think) said that the props department is amazing because everything is authentic. Even the letters the actors read, which the audience never see, are fully written out and congruent with the action of the show and that it's things like that that help the actors put on a better performance.

 

I really hate them being apart already and hate that she brought up that stupid trick arrow as for why she isn’t needed.  I could buy that she has everything automated now but just acknowledging it happened and Oliver getting credit for it irks me more than I can say.

My head canon is that she was looking for a reason to justify leaving the team.    She thought she could still work with Oliver but then he pulled that "we have to get married" stunt and she saw that he was so hopeful they would get back together and she realized that it hurt her and it hurt him too much to work together now.

 

But she didn't want to leave Team Arrow in the lurch so when she remembered that Oliver had worked up that bit of tech and that now both Diggle and Thea were kind of trained on the comms, she thought she could leave without guilt.  Maybe she'll bring Curtis in next week if they're in trouble.

 

They aren't equal lies. Oliver lied because he was given an ultimatum to do so or never see his child. Felicity lied because she did want to admit to Oliver that the perfect normal life she thought she wanted wasn't the life she wanted after all.

I think Felicity lied because she didn't want to leave the Team ever but Oliver did and so she went away with him because she wanted to be with him.  It wasn't couched as an ultimatum but maybe she thought she didn't have a choice.

 

Both Oliver and Felicity lied because they thought that to tell the truth would cost them the other person.  The problem was the difference in magnitude -- Felicity's lie didn't hurt their relationship except as a speed bump while Oliver's lie and subsequent making the decision to send William away on his own tanked it.

 

- Oliver should really stop listening to Digg's relationship advice, because it has never worked out for him. With the exception of 406 (which was more of a pep talk than relationship advice, actually) when he does what Digg suggested he got blown up on a date, watched Felicity kiss Ray, and what happened tonight.

I hadn't notice that but now that you mention it......  Maybe Oliver should move on to taking relationship advice from Curtis and Paul.

[looptab]

A couple sparse considerations:

 

It kinda felt like Cupid was standing not just for "those crazy shippers", but the haters as well - what with the "Love makes you weak, soft etc " 

 

I liked that, in the first scene in the lair when the team comes back, Thea seems to be sensing something is off between Oliver and Felicity. She gives puzzled looks to each of them.

[NumberCruncher]

Yes, and also the other side of the coin--that she is a character with faults, etc., not an embodiment of perfection, and therefore, it's okay for viewers to acknowledge those shortcomings for what they are, and hope the show might address them.

Agreed. Felicity is known to get mean when she's in distress, but she's never really had to face the consequences of that particular character flaw. I would personally love it if they allowed her to acknowledge that it's an unhealthy way to deal with stress or anger. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if, down the road, she realizes she's hardened herself a little too much in the face of disappointment and that plays a role in ultimately forgiving Oliver. Don't misunderstand me--I certainly need him to face up to all of the bullshit he's pulled, but I would like to see the character growth go both ways.

[dtissagirl]

I'm rewatching the episode, and what I'm getting from Felicity is that she went about all of it wrong. The packing scene is particularly telling to me, because she's being almost weirdly cheerful? The façade was already in place then. Sometime between last episode and this, she seems to have decided to deal with the break up from a strictly practical standpoint, and to repress whatever she was feeling as the way to keep working with Oliver and the team.

 

I'm actually wondering if their first mission post- break up had been something else, that didn't hit so close to home, that she might have succeeded in repressing and denying, and would have been able to stay with the team. But that wouldn't have moved the story anywhere, I guess.

Edited March 24, 2016 by dtissagirl

[thegirlsleuth]

Add to that the either/or demand of having a relationship with her, and Oliver will screw up just waking up in the morning. She should have known this guy was damaged goods, and demanding instant improvement under penalty of a ratings ploy probably won't help. It's a relationship -- messy and fraught with peril -- and requires work, not ultimatums. I mean, you don't bolo punch an alcoholic for slipping, so you?

I agree this was a ratings ploy--Oliver and Felicity were a team and talking EVERYTHING out until the writers needed them to keep secrets and break them up.  That said, Felicity did know Oliver was damaged goods and she offered to be his team mate.  But I do want to clarify that she never made ultimatums--ever. She didn't stay contingent on him never making another mistake, she didn't say "do it for me", she said "I love you but you hurt me and I don't trust you so I am going to take care of myself by leaving".  to extend your alcoholic metaphor, she treated him the way you treat a suffering alcoholic, meaning you detach with love. She accepted who he was, but part of that acceptance was knowing that there was the probability that he wouldn't change.

[tv echo]

Good news - Star City does indeed have a living D.A....

 

In the scene where Quentin goes to Laurel's ADA office, Laurel says: "Dad, I went to my boss, and I asked him to give you immunity from prosecution. He said he'd prefer to be reelected."

 

So apparently the current D.A. is male and a guy who's more concerned about staying in office than justice.  Presumably he's also more concerned with staying safe than in justice - which is likely why Laurel is spearheading the Darhk prosecution and the D.A. is nowhere to be seen.

Edited March 24, 2016 by tv echo

[Hiddenpick]

"Shot through the heart and you're to blame you give love a bad name". I quote these Bon Jovi lyrics while looking at you Cupid, and at you writers. Why the writers you say?  Because if the expectation is that I would be invested in the idea that Cupid is so forlorned by the 'death' of her fantasy lover that  I would buy that as a legitimate motivation for her actions, then...then you'd be wrong. What I do know is that her appearance is a devise (a heavily laden one at that) to continue the campaign to legitimize or analyze the contrived nonsense that led to the Olicity break-up in the first place. I'm worn by it, beat down, exhausted...trampled with the dour soap opera-ness of it. That it's a necessary (I used the term loosely) plot development doesn't provide comfort or contentment. 

 

Now, it certainly would not be cool for the writers to have them break up in a previous episode just to have them make up in this one, yet having Felicity walk away again, given there is no new or deeply profound reasoning for doing so is becoming tiresome at best and predictable at worst. (Although the paralysis story and it's conclusion was a bit anti-climatic). We get it, Oliver can be a blockhead sometimes, but this is nothing new. Further (as I have posted before) it's a sensibility that was front and center as she fell in love with this version of Oliver. Not sure if it's wise to be with someone only to expect to change them. The moment they fail to live up to expectation, they'll fail and you'll will be disappointed. And so I suppose this is Felicity's realization--finally.

 

There was no heightened sense of urgency in this week's episode and no indispensable dramatic interchange. There was no compelling or crucial action. What it was instead was a grim sad outing that weighed the episode down. Maybe it's because I absolutely realize that Felicity was the one character that often made the episodes lighter--at least for the most part, what with those (at times) inappropriate one-liners that endeared me. And maybe because I feel that the way Felicity is [written] more recently has morphed into this provocative character, targeted for her actions to be interpreted as 'wrong' and 'right' and/or 'good' and 'bad'.
And maybe that's why after seeing this episode my shoulders sag and I have a glazed look in my eye and am left with a discontentment I cannot fully explain. And while I am saddened about the breakup, that sadness is coming from a more peripheral place, not a heart-and-soul-deepdown-to-the-bone-gut-bucket angst.  Meh, maybe it's because I know that this (breakup) too shall pass into a better and best relationship for them both.

 

It doesn't help that characters seem written with a schizophrenic-esque flavor. On the one hand Felicity tells her mom to forgive Lance because people keep secrets to protect the ones they love and on the other she is not allowed to practice what she preaches. But more annoying is the idea that we are bombarded with affected story lines that try to sell the idea that Oliver is wrong without really making him do something realistically dastardly to warrant a proper bu-bye from Felicity.

 

Oh Oliver, my Oliver asking Felicity to go through a fake wedding was so in bad taste, though the practicality for the ruse apparently worked. Oliver's 'role' in this episode was (for the most part) to react to the breakup, a process which placed him in his usual emotional crisis with the M.O. of him 'running away' from the reality at hand. Dig's and Thea's egging him on to 'just tell her' what he wants (as if she doesn't know) didn't help the situation. And as this estrangement continues, what we will see in the episodes to come is 'noble' Oliver fighting and "suffering the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune and take arms against a sea of troubles" even as he's brooding and moody. What will Felicity do now that she has quit the team (again)?  There's no doubt that this is an emotional journey for Olicity, not it's destination. Seeing how that all works itself out had better be so fascinating that all this mishigos will be wiped from my memory forever.

 

In other news, Laurel does not recuse herself from the case which involves her father, but manages to get a conviction. Devious devilish Damien Darhk is up to no good as he's led to his jail cell. Is that ring mystical? And the endless sub-plot in an endless flashback continues and round and round it goes, when will it stop, nobody knows.

[doesntworkonwood]

Honestly I had no problem with her snarking and I didn't even think it was that bad? It is definitely a flaw in her character, and one that they need to address, but it is a part of Felicity and I think it would have been more out of character for her not to snark. She's upset, she hasn't been talking to anyone about the break up of the biggest relationship of her life, and she's come face to face once again with a woman who's entire villain MO is about love. The last time Felicity dealt with Cupid, she had her heart broken, and the same thing is happening again except a million times worse because she's actually tasted happiness and she still (sort of) has the opportunity to, but only if she gives up on what she wants in a partner, someone who's willing to open up and talk to her and treat her like a partner. 

 

It's not a healthy way to deal with it at all, and like I said earlier I would like to see it addressed, but I have no problem with it in this episode because it's not only an understandable reaction but it's also a Felicity reaction. 

[nksarmi]

I agree this was a ratings ploy--Oliver and Felicity were a team and talking EVERYTHING out until the writers needed them to keep secrets and break them up.  That said, Felicity did know Oliver was damaged goods and she offered to be his team mate.  But I do want to clarify that she never made ultimatums--ever. She didn't stay contingent on him never making another mistake, she didn't say "do it for me", she said "I love you but you hurt me and I don't trust you so I am going to take care of myself by leaving".  to extend your alcoholic metaphor, she treated him the way you treat a suffering alcoholic, meaning you detach with love. She accepted who he was, but part of that acceptance was knowing that there was the probability that he wouldn't change.

 

To continue with the analogy - sometimes you do have to leave an alcoholic who keeps slipping.  You just have to.  It doesn't matter how much you love him/her - you have to get in a healthy place and hope they do the same.

 

The important thing to remember here is that this lie did not happen in a bubble - it was built on last year's huge, huge, gigantic, heart-breaking lies.  And more importantly I think than the lies is it was Oliver shutting her out again.  And let's be clear - he not only shut her out BEFORE the truth came out but AFTER the truth came out as well.  He never said I'm sorry - and he never said "Felicity, what do you think WE should do going forward?" 

 

Because at that point it very clearly WAS a WE decision.  If Oliver had known about this boy for 10 years and willingly stayed out of his life and promised to tell know one 10 years ago than him following through with a 10 year plan to stay out of the kid's life at the end of the episode might have been one thing - but even under those circumstances, he should have talked to his FUTURE wife and asked her opinion since he listened to his work colleague Vixen and friend Diggle.  If I liken it to a mother giving a baby up for adoption - I can understand he never telling her future husband but ONCE he knows - she should at least ask what he thinks or feels about it.

 

However, this was not a 10 year old secret - this was something Oliver found out about while they were a couple and he WANTED a relationship with his son.  So he should have told her and just asked her to keep that secret.  Or he should have told her after he realized other people knew.  But I think the biggest, most awful thing for Felicity was that even once the lie came out - he never asked her opinion, how she felt, did she think he should send them into hiding, etc.... (and by the way, who setup their secret lives Lyla and Argus?  Seems like Felicity would be better suited for keeping it ultra secret).

 

So not only did he lie to her again, he didn't ask her opinion AT ALL, and he had someone else (because Oliver can't do this himself) hide them.  Gee, I wonder why Felicity feels like he doesn't want her on his team?

 

No Felicity is doing the right thing.  Now we have to wait and see if Oliver will wake up and realize WHY he lost her.  Because until he understands what he really did wrong - he can't fix it.  And really - this wasn't just a "no I didn't invite your mom to come - she just happen to be coming here and wanted to have dinner" lie.  This was - I turned to everyone else instead of you moment and it's huge.

I agree this was a ratings ploy--Oliver and Felicity were a team and talking EVERYTHING out until the writers needed them to keep secrets and break them up.  That said, Felicity did know Oliver was damaged goods and she offered to be his team mate.  But I do want to clarify that she never made ultimatums--ever. She didn't stay contingent on him never making another mistake, she didn't say "do it for me", she said "I love you but you hurt me and I don't trust you so I am going to take care of myself by leaving".  to extend your alcoholic metaphor, she treated him the way you treat a suffering alcoholic, meaning you detach with love. She accepted who he was, but part of that acceptance was knowing that there was the probability that he wouldn't change.

 

To continue with the analogy - sometimes you do have to leave an alcoholic who keeps slipping.  You just have to.  It doesn't matter how much you love him/her - you have to get in a healthy place and hope they do the same.

 

The important thing to remember here is that this lie did not happen in a bubble - it was built on last year's huge, huge, gigantic, heart-breaking lies.  And more importantly I think than the lies is it was Oliver shutting her out again.  And let's be clear - he not only shut her out BEFORE the truth came out but AFTER the truth came out as well.  He never said I'm sorry - and he never said "Felicity, what do you think WE should do going forward?" 

 

Because at that point it very clearly WAS a WE decision.  If Oliver had known about this boy for 10 years and willingly stayed out of his life and promised to tell know one 10 years ago than him following through with a 10 year plan to stay out of the kid's life at the end of the episode might have been one thing - but even under those circumstances, he should have talked to his FUTURE wife and asked her opinion since he listened to his work colleague Vixen and friend Diggle.  If I liken it to a mother giving a baby up for adoption - I can understand he never telling her future husband but ONCE he knows - she should at least ask what he thinks or feels about it.

 

However, this was not a 10 year old secret - this was something Oliver found out about while they were a couple and he WANTED a relationship with his son.  So he should have told her and just asked her to keep that secret.  Or he should have told her after he realized other people knew.  But I think the biggest, most awful thing for Felicity was that even once the lie came out - he never asked her opinion, how she felt, did she think he should send them into hiding, etc.... (and by the way, who setup their secret lives Lyla and Argus?  Seems like Felicity would be better suited for keeping it ultra secret).

 

So not only did he lie to her again, he didn't ask her opinion AT ALL, and he had someone else (because Oliver can't do this himself) hide them.  Gee, I wonder why Felicity feels like he doesn't want her on his team?

 

No Felicity is doing the right thing.  Now we have to wait and see if Oliver will wake up and realize WHY he lost her.  Because until he understands what he really did wrong - he can't fix it.  And really - this wasn't just a "no I didn't invite your mom to come - she just happen to be coming here and wanted to have dinner" lie.  This was - I turned to everyone else instead of you moment and it's huge.

[AyChihuahua]

I feel like a lot of this "He's not perfect, she knew what she was getting into, she shouldn't try to change him" stuff is contingent on a the relevant sentence beginning with: "If she still wants to date/get married to him..."

 

Here's the thing: she DOESN'T still want to date/marry him. She broke up with him. She told him several times that their relationship is over. She's not trying to change him, she's simply leaving him bc she can't accept who he is. That is completely her right. She doesn't have to stay with him just because he wants her to. I mean, what even is that? People are not required to remain in relationships just because the other person in the relationship wants them to. Yes, even women. Women are 100% allowed to dump dudes bc they don't want to be with the dude, for whatever reason, and I have an incredibly hard time with the idea that Oliver lying about having AN ACTUAL HUMAN CHILD is not an incredibly GOOD reason not to want to be with him.  

[blackwing]

I could have done without seeing Cupid again.  I find it hard to believe that eluded both Thea and John to get into that ballroom.

 

However, I'm just so sick of Damien Dahrk.  His idol doohickey was destroyed so now he has no powers, but at the end when he's in prison, he puts his wedding ring on and acts like he has his powers back.  He doesn't does he?  I call BS that he was able to get his ring in there.  He would have been stripsearched and given an oral and anal cavity probe.  Putting it underneath his tongue wouldn't have cut it.

[looptab]

It was so long since we had any Arrow/Quentin moments on a crime scene (or just outside of the lair) that, during that scene I mildly freaked out that Oliver wasn't concealing his voice, haha. 

[apinknightmare]

I was kind of confused last night about who was moving out of the apartment. Felicity was doing the packing, but Oliver hired the movers. Felicity told Oliver about how the movers should pack the boxes in the truck (like he'd be there to instruct them), and then he mentioned that they'd come by whenever she wanted, and to give them a call (indicating that the stuff that was being moved was hers). But then at the very end when she was down in the lair with him, she told him she thought he'd be asleep by now, and he said he couldn't sleep - which indicates that he's living in the lair, since otherwise she would've said "I thought you'd be home by now?" 

 

So it seems like Oliver's living in the lair with Quentin, I guess? Is this a fair assumption? 

 

WHO IS LIVING WHERE

[statsgirl]

I assumed that Felicity would be the one moving out to a Palmer Tech apartment.  But you're right, it looks like Oliver moved out and into the lair.

 

Maybe she was packing his things up because she thought he'd screw it up.

 

So is Darhk's ring the real source of his powers or what was that about?

That would be interesting. I assumed that it was his wedding ring that he was too fond of but maybe some of his power is connected to his wife.

 

Let me see if I have the timeline correct:

(1) Felicity breaks up with Oliver at the end of the previous episode

(2) At the beginning of this episode, they will haven't told Team Arrow about the breakup but Felicity has already packed and Oliver has already hired a moving company

(3) Team Arrow is informed of the breakup

(4) Cupid finds out that Oliver and Felicity broke up so she removes them from her celebrity couple hit list

They were still on the list. Only the Team knew they were split up, and maybe the wedding guests Felicity had already contacted but as Thea said, they would assume Oliver and Felicity just wanted a secret wedding.

Edited March 24, 2016 by statsgirl

[Chasity]

I was kind of confused last night about who was moving out of the apartment. Felicity was doing the packing, but Oliver hired the movers. Felicity told Oliver about how the movers should pack the boxes in the truck (like he'd be there to instruct them), and then he mentioned that they'd come by whenever she wanted, and to give them a call (indicating that the stuff that was being moved was hers). But then at the very end when she was down in the lair with him, she told him she thought he'd be asleep by now, and he said he couldn't sleep - which indicates that he's living in the lair, since otherwise she would've said "I thought you'd be home by now?" 

 

So it seems like Oliver's living in the lair with Quentin, I guess? Is this a fair assumption? 

 

WHO IS LIVING WHERE

I really hope he hasn't lost his home over this lie as well. It feels like the writers went overboard with the amount of consequences Oliver has had to face over a lie he didn't want to tell.  I mean, it's understandable that he lost Felicity over this, but him losing his kid, the chance at a job he was really excited about, and his home over it, is just overkill to me. Most shows that I watch don't have any consequences for their main character, but this show does too much to make Oliver suffer. 

[DrSpaceman10]

I'm pretty sure Felicity is the one moving out, which means Felicity lost Oliver, her home and her work on the team. So, basically Felicity's only going to have scenes in Palmer Tech for the next few episodes?

[apinknightmare]

I'm pretty sure Felicity is the one moving out, which means Felicity lost Oliver, her home and her work on the team. So, basically Felicity's only going to have scenes in Palmer Tech for the next few episodes?

 

Maybe he's been staying in the lair while she gets moved out? Why no one would've noticed that is interesting, since they were all surprised at the news of the breakup. That's the only reason why I can think for Felicity saying "I thought you'd be asleep by now," since otherwise she'd say she was surprised he was there, or something along those lines. 

[looptab]

IDK, Echo Kellum live-tweeted last night and said something like'when your ex is helping you move but you're still feeling her'. But I thought Felicity was moving out.

[apinknightmare]

IDK, Echo Kellum live-tweeted last night and said something like'when your ex is helping you move but you're still feeling her'. But I thought Felicity was moving out.

 

Yeah, maybe he's been staying in the lair while she gets packed? There was a menorah in one of the boxes, so it is her stuff. I just thought it was a strange line from her at the end. 

[AyChihuahua]

He walked out in the middle of packing. I'd find that pretty bizarre if he was the one leaving.

 

Someone on twitter said she packed her menorah...if correct that would mean she's the one leaving.

 

We should know in the next episode or two. I definitely think she moved out, but the writing was pretty unclear.

[ComicFan777]

...maybe they both moved out of loft.  Can't you imagine Oliver thinking that it might be too painful to live in their home without her because he is a total sap?  I really wouldn't put it past him to think that.

[Xenith22]

Now, it certainly would not be cool for the writers to have them break up in a previous episode just to have them make up in this one, yet having Felicity walk away again, given there is no new or deeply profound reasoning for doing so is becoming tiresome at best and predictable at worst.

 

Except I think there was a fairly profound reason.   When Felicity broke up with Oliver in the previous episode she wanted to believe that things could just go back to the way they were before.   That she could continue to work with Oliver as part of team Arrow as nothing more than collegues/friends.  Sure things might be a little awkward at first, but she would just deal with it and it would simply pass.

 

But then came the fake wedding.   On it's own just the act of going through the process of the fake wedding was probably emotionally hard enough on her...having to pretend that everything was wonderful smiling and nodding in front of the minister.  But then Oliver had to go and make things 100x worse by telling the minister that they prepared their own vows.   Felicity is caught completely off-guard.  Oliver did not tell her about this before because he knew she would likely not have agreed to it as professing something this deeply personal was certainly not needed to trap Cupid.   No this was Oliver's attempt to essentially manipulate Felicity's emotions by professing his feelings in a situation where inside she was probably already an emotional wreck while on the outside she trapped in a situation where she could only smile and nod as he professed his love or risk blowing their ruse.  And really I think she did seem to get swept up in the whole thing.  When Oliver put the ring on her finger the way she said his name as she looked into his eye I actually lean towards thinking had Cupid waited a few moments longer to attack she may have actually married him and not just to continue the ruse.

 

But Cupid did attack before that happened, which gave her a chance to regain her composure.  Of course that was not the end of things though, because then she was forced to try to reason with Cupid about the meaning of love which further forced her to think of her positive feelings towards Oliver and the relationship she wishes they had.

 

In the end after she had time to process everything alone she apparently came to the reasonable conclusion that continuing to try to work with Oliver when they both had feelings for each other was not healthy for either of them.   Oliver was likely to not stop trying to win her back, and since there is still a large part of her that still wants him despite the hurt he can cause her things were not going to be able to just go on like before.  So she had to really try to put some space between them.  She's no longer just an IT girl, so being part of Team Arrow is no longer the only thing that gives her life real meaning or lets her give back to the world.

 

I could have done without seeing Cupid again.  I find it hard to believe that eluded both Thea and John to get into that ballroom.

Thea was in a stairwell near the paparazzi at the front door for god knows what reason,  while Diggle was in the van watching security camera footage of the halls.  (I already ranted about this on my page 1 post that even Cupid was not crazy/stupid enough to actually enter through the front door past the large crowd of people with cameras.)  Neither of them was actually monitoring the roof or the windows...which is obviously how Cupid came in...which is the same way Green Arrow would have entered (and that Thea/Diggle eventually entered) had anyone actually tried using their brain cells.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Xenith22

[apinknightmare]

But then Oliver had to go and make things 100x worse by telling the minister that they prepared their own vows.   Felicity is caught completely offguard.  Oliver did not tell her about this before because he knew she would likely not have agreed to it as professing something this deeply personal was certainly not needed to trap Cupid.

 

I don't think he manipulated her at all. I think that since they had the venue booked, it's likely that they had also selected an officiant for the ceremony, who had already met them, knew they were planning on writing their own vows, and was willing to perform the ceremony earlier than agreed, and went on as they planned. She didn't know it was fake, so she asked about the vows. Felicity, knowing it was fake, probably hadn't thought about the fact that someone would expect her to read them.

 

I think he definitely used the fact that he had her as a captive audience to his advantage to tell her how he was feeling, though.

Edited March 24, 2016 by apinknightmare

[looptab]

Yeah, maybe he's been staying in the lair while she gets packed? There was a menorah in one of the boxes, so it is her stuff. I just thought it was a strange line from her at the end. 

Maybe they just wanted him to say he can't sleep, haha.

[blixie]

 

Oliver lying about having AN ACTUAL HUMAN CHILD is not an incredibly GOOD reason not to want to be with him.

 

The problem is, in text, they kind of had her dismiss this as an aspect of why she doesn't want to marry him. She like everyone else on the show/Team Arrow has to support this idea that Oliver had NO CHOICE, and therefore the choice he made is understandable/forgivable. They had her deke that the reason she's leaving him is that he's still too much of a loner who makes decisions based on what happened to him on the island, when all he had was himself (which isn't even effing TRUE), or alternately that he was destructive to every person he ever interacted with and those he has to isolate the human population from himself.

 

I totally agree, though that she's in the right, that she was"detaching with love" as someone else put it so elegantly. I thinks she did what was best for her, and for him, and for them if there is ever to be a them again.  

Edited March 24, 2016 by blixie

[wonderwall]

According to Rebecca Bellotto, Stephen Ad libbed this part

 

 

In the vows - "I showed up at your cubicle" was all SA! Love @amellywood X

 

Aw Stephen you shipper you :)

[bijoux]

I finally caught enough time to watch it. The emotional beats between Oliver and Felicity were excellent and Lance was great on the stand. That plus Thea being an adorable cupake make me want to say this was a better episode than it was. Quite frankly, though, on the whole, it was mediocre. The trial, barring Lance, was a bust and so was Cupid for the most part. I finally got involved in her story when she started to break down before Felicity but that was at the end of the episode.

 

It's hard to buy into the premise of the team potentially being exposed as vigilantes while they were testifying when we saw GA prancing around when there were 10 police officers at the crime scene. Sweet Jesus. Oliver the mayoral candidate who supported the police force at their fundraiser couldn't have gone as himself and do some recon?

 

I've been saying for a long while that I didn't require Felicity to leave, but this episode nicely laid out why it was the best choice for her at this point. She didn't really receive much support from Dig as one (I) might have hoped and she's sniping at Oliver left and right. Which is completely justified, but I don't think it's the type of person she wants to be and it's not making her feel better in the end, so distancing herself is the thing to do at the moment. Their final scene was really what I wanted their break up in the last episode to be. (Although that bit about 'this life' came out of the left field. I don't know what to make of that yet.)

 

Diggle, I usually love you, but you were very annoying. I hope you go home and brag to Lyla about how you're helping so that she cuts you down quick. Nice going on making Oliver wear a kevlar. Did Felicity get a bustier kevlar under her dress? Not that enough of her body wasn't exposed to injuries either way. For that matter, did that nice justice of the peace get one? 

[bijoux]

So it seems like Oliver's living in the lair with Quentin, I guess? Is this a fair assumption? 

 

If he is, they better not rob me of a scene of them bickering over who gets to use the bathroom first in the morning.

Why won't they give Thea a bike? Laurel wasn't using hers this episode, and she still rode on the back of Olivers. Do they think she's too reckless?

[Chaser]

According to Rebecca Bellotto, Stephen Ad libbed this part

 

 

Aw Stephen you shipper you :)

LOL all those jokes about SA writing the vows...

[Delphi]

http://itstheaqueen.tumblr.com/post/141596257719

So some positivity: Thea is a cinnamon roll, who could actually kill you. But Oliver's facial expressions in these GIFs is to die for.

[lemotomato]

According to Rebecca Bellotto, Stephen Ad libbed this part

 

 

Aw Stephen you shipper you :)

Knowing how SA is such a stickler for detail, I can imagine him thinking "No no no, that's not what actually happened" and deciding to add to it right then and there. We already know that Oliver meeting Felicity is one of his favorite stories he tells in interviews and cons :)

[AyChihuahua]

The problem is, in text, they kind of had her dismiss this as an aspect of why she doesn't want to marry him. She like everyone else on the show/Team Arrow has to support this idea that Oliver had NO CHOICE, and therefore the choice he made is understandable/forgivable. They had her deke that the reason she's leaving him is that he's still too much of a loner who makes decisions based on what happened to him on the island, when all he had was himself (which isn't even effing TRUE), or alternately that he was destructive to every person he ever interacted with and those he has to isolate the human population from himself.

 

I totally agree, though that she's in the right, that she was"detaching with love" as someone else put it so elegantly. I thinks she did what was best for her, and for him, and for them if there is ever to be a them again.  

Oh yeah, everyone on the show is on board that he had to lie. They've said it a billion times. But I legit just don't give a shit. (Snark not directed at you.) It's NOT CORRECT. Frankly if they'd been able to come up with an actual believable reason that he did have to lie this whole SL would be a lot better (up until Malcolm found out, anyway...at that point all bets are off). So my defense of her is not based entirely on what is shown. In-show, though, she absolutely had a great, just different, reason to dump him, which is that he has no clue re what being married actually entails...among other things, frigging talking to your future wife before deciding apparently kids ain't for you.

[Guest]

It really is a shame that Felicity has literally no in-show support. I felt this way after 415 when everyone defended Oliver and Felicity was basically left out in the cold because she refused to accept being lied to. Just a little support for her position wouldn't go amiss. Even Diggle or anyone, saying "Well, you lied to her, it's understandable she's hurt" would have been something. It's almost like they want people to dislike her. I don't get it tbh. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited March 24, 2016 by Guest

[nksarmi]

The problem is, in text, they kind of had her dismiss this as an aspect of why she doesn't want to marry him. She like everyone else on the show/Team Arrow has to support this idea that Oliver had NO CHOICE, and therefore the choice he made is understandable/forgivable. They had her deke that the reason she's leaving him is that he's still too much of a loner who makes decisions based on what happened to him on the island, when all he had was himself (which isn't even effing TRUE), or alternately that he was destructive to every person he ever interacted with and those he has to isolate the human population from himself.

 

I totally agree, though that she's in the right, that she was"detaching with love" as someone else put it so elegantly. I thinks she did what was best for her, and for him, and for them if there is ever to be a them again.  

 

But like I said - I think Felicity's IN SHOW reason is excellent and kind of even more important than he lied.  Felicity knows Oliver loves her and probably has never once thought he would cheat on her or anything like that.  She accepts that he might tell stupid little lies like "you're mom was just in town - no, I didn't call her."

 

I think Felicity clearly thought Oliver was a big, dumb moron for lying to her/not telling her - especially when she figured out that Malcolm knew (Felicity really does NOT like Malcolm so that was a big slap in the face).  I mean, she was clearly suggesting that keeping her out of the circle was bad because she could have helped keep William safe.  And during the episode, I think it really looked like she was going to forgive him - especially during the scene where BM said "blame me - not him."

 

What I think broke Felicity was him telling her "Diggle said......" then watching Vixen give him advice and then finding out that he had made a plan and was recording a video and he did NOT talk to her about it.  She essentially told him that when push comes to shove - he can't or won't be a teammate - he will just be a lone gun.  And let's not forget that this was the essence of what he did to them last season with the LoA plot.  And this poor woman went from facing the fact that she didn't really love the guy she was with (Ray) to feeling like she was going to lose the guy she really did love for ever (Oliver) to thinking that guy had become her enemy (Al-sha dumbass) to finding out it was all a trick and now he wanted to be with her forever and ever.  Holy crap Batman - that's an emotional roller-coaster ride for sure!!!!

 

So the girl survives all of that and tells him point blank - "When you withhold stuff from me, I can't be a good teammate and I want to be a good teammate" and he still locks her out and NEVER asks for her help or her advice.

 

Yes, in show, Felicity's "you will always do things your own way and by the way - your way is dumb - and I won't hurt over you anymore" was pretty valid to me.

[statsgirl]

I am so down for "Oliver and Quentin -- Full Lair" scenes.

 

Back a few pages, the suggestion that Darhk's trial should have been the A plot because it's been the season storyline.  I disagree, I think after the intensity of the DD episodes, going back to the midseason finale where he kidnapped Thea, Diggle and Felicity and then shot up Felicity and Oliver, and most recently when he kidnapped William, it was a good idea to step back from it a bit and let it breathe and put the focus for the episode on a VofW.  Given the end of the episode, it looks like Darhk will be back in the forefront in the next episode.

 

This was particularly hilarious, since Felicity walking again and breaking up with Oliver HAPPENED AT THE SAME TIME. So they told the team she was walking, but not about the break up? El oh el.

I take it as showing that Oliver is so deep in denial that Felicity is really breaking up with him that he can't see straight. He doesn't cancel the venue because that would be proof that it's really over, and he tells his Team that she can walk but not that the engagement is broken because that might make it real.

 

Whatever else happened, the episode made 100% clear that Oliver and Felicity still love each other.  In fact, Oliver loves her so much that he screwed things up by jumping on the idea of a wedding and then assuming it put her back in the game.  Felicity had to leave the team for her sake, but she also had to for Oliver's because he just wasn't getting the message. (Thanks a bundle, Diggle.)

 

I disagree because it's not that breaking up with someone you are still very much in love with is any less painful because you are the one who made the decision. She is still in love with him but he broke her heart and that's why she feels they can't be together again. Standing in front of him in her wedding dress, in the venue they chose for their wedding right after he shattered all her dreams of a life together is cruel. After a break up the last thing you want to do is spend time pretending everything is fine with your ex. It hurts.

If anything, it was harder for her because Oliver was still under the delusion it wasn't over and thought this fake wedding might get her back.  It was Felicity who was thought that this was something they would never be having for real.

 

Research in break-ups found that it takes 4-6 years to get over a seriously break-up whether you're the one doing the breaking or not.

 

 

Maybe it's Y chromosome hairsplitting, but I find the last-straw reasoning that Felicity laid down to be disingenuous. We're talking about a life, here, and Felicity of all people should realize that a connection to someone like Oliver/Green Arrow was dangerous. I also think that keeping a secret of that magnitude isn't lying, no matter how much Felicity purses her lips in disagreement.

Add to that the either/or demand of having a relationship with her, and Oliver will screw up just waking up in the morning. She should have known this guy was damaged goods, and demanding instant improvement under penalty of a ratings ploy probably won't help. It's a relationship -- messy and fraught with peril -- and requires work, not ultimatums. I mean, you don't bolo punch an alcoholic for slipping, so you?

The problem with the "protecting William" argument is that the minute Oliver became aware that Malcolm knew about William two episodes earlier, Felicity not know meant William was in more danger, not less.  If Felicity and Diggle etc. had known, she could have set up cameras monitoring William and they could have protected him, or at least learned he was in danger and that Malcolm had taken him as soon as that happened.

 

You don't punch an alcoholic for slipping but sometimes, when you've made it clear what the lines of the relationship are as Felicity has, and he still keeps slipping you have to walk away otherwise it's just permission for the alcoholic to keep slipping because there are no real consequences.

[tennisgurl]

Finally got around to watching the episode and WOW was that depressing. I just...I hate the Olicity break up. Its for such contrived reasons, we all know they are going to get back together at some point anyway, it means less time with Felicity (one of my favorites) and I like them so much as a couple, it sucks that the writers do not like them as much. That being said, it was a pretty solid episode, with lots of great acting, especially from SA and EBR. 

 

I have not had time to read all the comments here yet so far, but correct me if I am wrong, but can Laurel examine her own Dad? Isn't that a conflict of interest? I know that Laurel is the only lawyer in town, but maybe bring in someone else to do this? 

 

It was cool seeing Cupid again, but I really question ARGUS and their ability to deal with these dangerous killers. I mean, its good that they are keeping their word about letting the Suicide Squad work off their sentences, but Cupid? Is legitimately insane and dangerous. At least give her a parole officer, or a therapist or something when shes not shooting people. 

 

I wish they had just had Felicity and Oliver break up for more of the reasons discussed her, how Oliver still thinks of himself as a lone wolf, and how its hard to be in a relationship with a person so used to keeping secrets. We could have done that if we REALLY needed an Olicity break up, without having a hidden child soap opera plot. 

Edited March 24, 2016 by tennisgurl

[AyChihuahua]

So I rewatched the episode. When Quentin is testifying to what DD said, and DD's slimy lawyer objects, and Laurel argues the testimony is admissible bc it's a statement against interest...really I think, bc Quentin is testifying about DD's out-of-court statement, the correct response to the objection is that it's an admission of a party-opponent, rather than a statement against interest. 

 

Which means the ONE THING I was thinking Laurel got right in the hearing, she actually got wrong. 

 

Other lawyers here, thoughts? Evidence was like 14 years ago for me.

Edited March 25, 2016 by AyChihuahua

[BunsenBurner]

It is in my head canon that the reason the wedding dress didn't fit Felicity is because they put kevlar in the bodice and it ruined the fit.

[catrox14]

Guys....I swear, I think this breakup is going to stick. I feel like Felicity's resolve is too great.  BUT I'm thinking....what if she is sitting on her own lie and she's projecting?

 

I mean it would be really hypocritical...but what if someone is holding something over her...or she feels ashamed of something about and that's why she took that thumb drive and left?

 

I just feel like yes Felicity is going to be upset that Oliver lied but I just struggle with the idea that she is not going to give him at least one more chance before ending it. 

 

Have I lost it?

Edited March 25, 2016 by catrox14

[apinknightmare]

Have I lost it?

 

No offense, but I think the answer is yes, haha.

 

I think the thumb drive has something to do with some programs she's been working on that she wants to develop for some kind of greater good - I don't think it's anything nefarious.

[catrox14]

No offense, but I think the answer is yes, haha.

 

I think the thumb drive has something to do with some programs she's been working on that she wants to develop for some kind of greater good - I don't think it's anything nefarious.

 

Fair enough. I'm just not seeing how they will ever reconcile

:(

[apinknightmare]

Fair enough. I'm just not seeing how they will ever reconcile

:(

She said sooner than they both think, he'll be faced with something he needs to keep from her. Pretty sure that's a clue. This time, whatever it is, he'll tell her. I think things between them will thaw next ep. And even more so after, to the point where she'll recognize him taking that step and actually telling her about it instead of hiding (if that's indeed how it happens). They *will* reconcile. You shouldn't worry about that. Edited March 25, 2016 by apinknightmare

[Athena5217]

 

So it seems like Oliver's living in the lair with Quentin, I guess? Is this a fair assumption? 

 

WHO IS LIVING WHERE

This is really bugging me now. Why isn't Quentin staying with Laurel? Why isn't Oliver staying with Thea? How big are Laurel's and Thea's places? Thea's place seems really nice so there should be room for Oliver temporarily. Does the lair have adequate bathroom facilities, a refrigerator, a microwave? What about laundry? The idea of Oliver and Quentin at the laundromat is hysterical.

[AudienceofOne]

Counterpoint: Cupid stupid. I could have done without the character existing, frankly.

As such, I did not love this episode. I thought having Cupid and the fake wedding right after the breakup was contrived and clunky. Obviously the actors sold it because they're amazing and I did love the Felicity did not crack but stood her ground (literally since she can now walk). But I'm hoping we can move past this soap opera and get back to the show soon. YMMV.

[Chaser]

I will forever be grateful for Cupid because she brought out Gossip Girl Thea. Xoxo.

[looptab]

Thea lives in Laurel's apartment. Quentin had to go live in the lair because he needed a safe place after he revealed the location of Darhk's HQ in 410.

[wonderwall]

I will forever be grateful for Cupid because she brought out Gossip Girl Thea. Xoxo.

Idk... As much as I like Cupid for bringing out Gossip Thea, I hate her for killing Alibert :( I'm forever heartbroken over Alibert. 

[Chaser]

Blannon was it for me. Secret weddings! Soooo romantic.

I didn't pick the ship life, the ship life picked me.

[wonderwall]

Blannon was it for me. Secret weddings! Soooo romantic.

I didn't pick the ship life, the ship life picked me.

 

Blannon ain't shit :p

 

*sigh* now I sort of wish Deadshot was still alive to see his and Cupid's interactions D: Cupidshot is the ultimate OTP.

[foreverevolving]

Blannon ain't shit :p

 

*sigh* now I sort of wish Deadshot was still alive to see his and Cupid's interactions D: Cupidshot is the ultimate OTP.

I'm sure if you fanfic.net/AO3/Tumbler long enough you'll find a fanfic to quench your thirst.