S04.E02: Pastor Tim

[izabella]

I didn't see Stan's conversation about the teacher as creepy.  Has there been any teen boy out there who hasn't had a crush on a hot teacher at some point?  Or on Stacey's mom, who's got it going on?  I'm pretty sure there were a LOT of boys in my high school who had crushes on Miss Chavez, our Spanish teacher.

 

Their hormones get moving, and they start thinking a lot about sex, and I don't think it's unusual or creepy that they'd have crushes on an attractive woman they saw every day.  It would be unusual and creepy if the teacher returned the attraction.  In any case, Stan didn't tell him to bring her flowers and ask her out on a date.

 

I don't think Stan, or anyone, should make a big fuss about a teen boy having a crush on his teacher.  That would embarrass Henry, and make him feel like having sexual feelings and thoughts was wrong.  And it's the perfect way to ensure that a kid won't come to ask advice again.  I think Stan did pretty well in that conversation. 

 

ETA - I was a year or two younger than Paige during this time period, and I grew up on The Waltons and Eight is Enough.  Mr. Walton wouldn't have gone all "that's so wrong!" if John Boy told him he had a crush on his teacher, and neither would Mr. Bradford if Tommy or Nicholas had.  I don't think Mike Brady would have been fussed about it, either.

Edited March 27, 2016 by izabella

[Penman61]

"Creepy" is the wrong word; let me try "pathetic" and "negligent."  For Stan not to include, among his bro-backslapping and identifying with a 13-year-old boy sexualizing his science teacher, some recognition that it's inappropriate to pursue it (which is what Henry asked about) shows how desperate Stan is for companionship on this topic, which is...pathetic, in both senses of the word.

 

Of course younglings sexualize adults.  It's up to adults to explain where the boundaries are.  Stan neglected to do that.  YMMV.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Penman61

[Umbelina]

Yeah, I agree Izabella.  I didn't find the scene in the slightest bit off, let alone "creepy."

 

Kids ask about sex and relationships, and Stan's "no" was perfect, as well as his easy acknowledgment that he would be interested too, in other words, "nothing weird about those feelings kid, but No.  She would not be interested."

 

I totally agree with everyone that one reason Stan likes Henry is because he doesn't have that kind of father/son easiness with his own son, probably mostly because he was gone for many of his formative years, off on that undercover assignment, and when he came back, trying to acclimate to a "home" life.  With Henry, he has a fresh start, since Henry obviously doesn't resent him for being gone, or for coming back jumpy or weird, and there is no divorce shadow separating them.

[sistermagpie]

ETA - I was a year or two younger than Paige during this time period, and I grew up on The Waltons and Eight is Enough.  Mr. Walton wouldn't have gone all "that's so wrong!" if John Boy told him he had a crush on his teacher, and neither would Mr. Bradford if Tommy or Nicholas had.  I don't think Mike Brady would have been fussed about it, either.

 

 

I didn't find the Stan conversation creepy either, and I didn't think Stan should have thought Henry crushing/lusting after his teacher was wrong or shocking. I did think his reaction was more about men-bonding-over-women-as-objects than any of those characters would have been. Stan basically made it about him and Henry both lusting after the science teacher, and that's a certain kind of guy who does that. Another guy--a lot of fathers, including Philip--would probably find Henry's lust perfectly normal and even laugh about it. They certainly wouldn't shame him for it or get too bent out of shape. They might even share a story of a teacher they crushed on. But they probably wouldn't specifically encourage the Pick-up artist pov either. Stan asking for her number was a joke, and it was funny, but it was a joke that only worked because Stan's that guy. Few women would really want him as an influence in that department, imo.

 

I totally agree with everyone that one reason Stan likes Henry is because he doesn't have that kind of father/son easiness with his own son, probably mostly because he was gone for many of his formative years, off on that undercover assignment, and when he came back, trying to acclimate to a "home" life.  With Henry, he has a fresh start, since Henry obviously doesn't resent him for being gone, or for coming back jumpy or weird, and there is no divorce shadow separating them.

 

 

Yup, and also it's a relationship with none of the actual fatherhood in it. Stan literally only has to get the kid to like to hang out with him sometimes, and on Stan's own schedule.

Edited March 27, 2016 by sistermagpie

[txhorns79]

"Creepy" is the wrong word; let me try "pathetic" and "negligent."  For Stan not to include, among his bro-backslapping and identifying with a 13-year-old boy sexualizing his science teacher, some recognition that it's inappropriate to pursue it (which is what Henry asked about) shows how desperate Stan is for companionship on this topic, which is...pathetic, in both senses of the word.

 

I think Stan told Henry that the teacher likely had no interest in him, and certainly Stan did not encourage Henry to pursue the relationship.  I think the main problem with Stan and Henry's relationship is that his parents aren't really aware of it, and Stan is probably overstepping in terms of his role in Henry's life. 

[Moose135]

I'm finally caught up! As I mentioned in the all episodes talk thread, I started watching the series on Amazon Prime a couple of weeks ago, and I got through this episode, and the S4 threads this weekend.

 

I had an interesting thought about the bio-weapon, and some other, seemingly innocuous comments.  After Stan confronts Phillip in the garage, and Phillip opens the metal can, the virus looked to be in a glass jar/vial, and was sort of a yellow/gold colored liquid, if I remember.  In the "Glanders" thread, someone mentioned it would only be harmful if Henry "...rubbed it on his skin".  Add the constant references his parents have been making to his new-found use of aftershave, and it makes you wonder what might happen if he stumbled across the jar...

[Hecate7]

I didn't find the Stan conversation creepy either, and I didn't think Stan should have thought Henry crushing/lusting after his teacher was wrong or shocking. I did think his reaction was more about men-bonding-over-women-as-objects than any of those characters would have been. Stan basically made it about him and Henry both lusting after the science teacher, and that's a certain kind of guy who does that. Another guy--a lot of fathers, including Philip--would probably find Henry's lust perfectly normal and even laugh about it. They certainly wouldn't shame him for it or get too bent out of shape. They might even share a story of a teacher they crushed on. But they probably wouldn't specifically encourage the Pick-up artist pov either. Stan asking for her number was a joke, and it was funny, but it was a joke that only worked because Stan's that guy. Few women would really want him as an influence in that department, imo.

 

It's the 80s. Teachers were still telling high school girls they were gonna quit to get married. Girls still frankly admitted that they were in college to get their MRS degrees. Every guy was "that guy" who objectified women. Women did it, too. Anyone who didn't, was regarded as a prude, or an uptight man-hating jerk. Maybe in a feminist collective or in EST, someone might confront someone about objectifying women, but in the 80s this stuff was very much considered the normal part.

[Umbelina]

Welcome Moose135, I am always thrilled to have someone new start watching this show.

[sistermagpie]

It's the 80s. Teachers were still telling high school girls they were gonna quit to get married. Girls still frankly admitted that they were in college to get their MRS degrees. Every guy was "that guy" who objectified women. Women did it, too. Anyone who didn't, was regarded as a prude, or an uptight man-hating jerk. Maybe in a feminist collective or in EST, someone might confront someone about objectifying women, but in the 80s this stuff was very much considered the normal part.

 

 

But my point isn't that men back then weren't objectifying women and seeing it as totally normal (of course they did and still do) it's that Stan deciding to talk like that with Henry, as a peer, is not something everybody would do. 

 

If Matthew Beeman talked to Philip about how his science teacher had big tits Philip would not be jokingly asking for her phone number and saying "Holy shit, I went to school at the wrong time." (Or if he did it would be more a polite joke and a quick change of subject.) I don't think Gaad or Aderholdt would either. 

 

That's where the "pathetic" word comes up because it seems like Stan's so eager to just have the kid like him of course he's not going to start drawing any lines like that. Or it just doesn't occur to him.

Edited March 28, 2016 by sistermagpie

[Mrs peel]

And that brings something else to mind.

I thought of The Lion in Winter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72vIkvjRpqY

Edited March 28, 2016 by Mrs peel

[Umbelina]

I don't think Stan is all the eager to have Henry like him.  They just like each other, they are comfortable with each other.  Sure, Henry fills a need for Stan who misses having that kind of relationship with his own son, but Stan fills a need in Henry too, having a normal dad, someone fun to hang out with, be completely comfortable with and relax. 

 

Again, I don't think it's at all creepy to listen and respond to a kid who brings up something sexual or crushes, at that age, those are normal questions and normal feelings, and Stan treated it just like that, his whole thing was a feeling of "hey, totally normal to feel that way, but NO."  Henry left that talk feeling that there was nothing weird to have those feelings, and also that NO, he needs to drop that fantasy about the teacher, because...duh. 

 

Of course Philip wouldn't joke "Hey, give me her number!" or whatever because Philip is married.  Now if Philip lost Elizabeth (divorce, death, whatever) after a bit of time had passed, as it has for Stan?  Philip might very well joke about something like that.

 

The Jennings all know Henry hangs out with Stan all the time, it's not a big secret.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Umbelina

[sistermagpie]

I don't think Stan is all the eager to have Henry like him.  They just like each other, they are comfortable with each other.  Sure, Henry fills a need for Stan who misses having that kind of relationship with his own son, but Stan fills a need in Henry too, having a normal dad, someone fun to hang out with, be completely comfortable with and relax.

 

 

I think Henry has a normal dad he can hang out and be relaxed around. He just doesn't have a dad with whom he's going to hang around with like he does Stan, because he's his dad. Stan's the cool single guy (with adult powers) and treats Henry more like another cool single guy (without, of course, being delusional or totally inappropriate about it). Stan's not a normal dad--he's more like a fantasy dad if anything. The kind that's not going to tell you to do your homework. 

 

It's not creepy or sexual, imo. It *could* lead to Stan taking baby steps to make things better with own son. But it looks to me right now more to me like Stan retreating into a less mature state, interacting with Henry more like a peer than a father-figure and doing it right when he seems to have almost given up on his actual son and actual friend. I mean, that's a lot of what Sandra was always on about with him, that he wasn't able to deal with people in a more intimate way. It's not a problem in itself that he finds Henry amusing and likes hanging out with him, it's just that it's part of Stan's whole damaged situation. 

 

The Jennings all know Henry hangs out with Stan all the time, it's not a big secret.

 

 

 

Yes--and again, I think that plays into it. A lot of people seem to think they don't know or approve of this relationship but they do. What's different now is that Stan's just gotten so angry at Philip. At that moment I think it became secret for Stan, and that makes it seem less mature unless he takes it as a reason to make up with Philip just to keep the whole thing normal rather than getting revenge by recreating what he imagines to be the Philip/Sandra thing.

 

What's funny is I can imagine Stan dropping by when he knows Philip and Elizabeth aren't there to see Henry's computer or whatever and Paige being nervous about it--not just because Stan's threatening in general now but because she'll be able to tell he's coming by when they're not there on purpose. 

Edited March 28, 2016 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

Yes, that could and probably will happen.  I was thinking the same thing, Philip and Stan's issues will involve Henry.  I like Henry, so I am looking forward to that.

 

I just disagree that Stan was inappropriate there, or in any way creepy.  I thought he handled it perfectly.

 

Philip is in no way a "normal" dad.  He's off banging Martha, or seducing a teenage (thank God that one didn't turn into sex, although his handler certainly thought it should!) or killing people, down in the basement transmitting or hiding poison that could wipe out a large number of people, fighting with Gabe, attending EST, AND working at the travel agency.  Henry did try to talk to him about his interest in computer games, and got pretty much a blank stare.  If Philip is involved with either of his children right now, it's Paige, probably hustling to keep her from being killed about now.

 

Stan though, is normal, watches baseball, goes to games, has a mutual interest in computer games, AND, he's there.  True, he's not 9-5, but he's close.  He's there to talk and hang out and make perfect mac and cheese.  That scene made me laugh because a couple of my Godchildren said the exact same thing to me.  "Why is yours so good, mom's sucks!"  Talking about Kraft here of course.  Hint, the tricks are: 

1. Don't overcook the macaroni,it needs to keep that small tight shape, but still be done.
2. Let the butter melt into the macaroni before adding the milk.
3. Add less milk than they call for, more like 1/5th of a cup.

You are welcome!  Ha.

Edited March 28, 2016 by Umbelina

[JennyMominFL]

 I was 12/13 in 1983 and I think that's was actually a pretty enlightened conversation about the teacher, for 1983. Things  really were different. It might be handled differently now.

[Clanstarling]

I watched the pilot episode today (for some reason I thought the houses weren't the same this season and wanted to check it out), and one of the first things Stan talks about to Amador was how he had a hot language teacher in high school. Also, Stan connects with Henry pretty much right off when they go over to welcome their new neighbors.

One of the other lines that pertains to this season is that Elizabeth is adamant that they will never tell their kids about what they do. For some reason, I thought Elizabeth was never completely against it.

Edited March 29, 2016 by clanstarling

[tennisgurl]

I agree that Stan handled it pretty well, especially for the early 80s. It was about as likable as Stan has been lately. I really do hope he and Philip make up. In a weird way, they need a friend, even with the whole "Philip is a soviet spy" thing in the background. Plus, it will be a way more dramatic reveal when Stan inevitably finds out the truth, if he and Philip are on good terms. 

[sistermagpie]

Philip is in no way a "normal" dad.

 

 

From Henry's pov, imo, he is. He's a normal dad who works a lot and is often distracted--often by Henry's high maintenance sister.  Stan's job has never been 9 to 5. Even now that he's not intentionally avoiding his own house because his family is there he just got given the freedom to run a whole operation on Oleg and he's going to be investigating Martha as well. We've seen him run out plenty at night as well.

 

But it doesn't even really matter because Henry doesn't feel entitled to Stan's time. Any time spent with him is exciting and a treat. Henry's not going to notice if Stan spends a night with his girlfriend or stays out on a stakeout or doesn't get home until midnight. Even in the scene they just had there were references to mundane interactions Henry has at home (mention of the cologne Stan's just noticed remind us Henry's parents have already gotten sick of and spoken to him about it, Elizabeth's problems cooking instant mac&cheese, and Henry having been given that computer by his parents that he wants Stan to come and see) and a reference to Stan's hectic schedule (he doesn't burn the m&c because he's often in too much of  hurry to cook it to wait that long).

 

I also just don't think Henry's attraction to Stan is that he's *mundane*--he interviewed him about being FBI in the past and thinks he had a hot wife. I think he more likely thinks Stan is more exciting than his own dad who's just getting ground down by running a stupid travel business. He doesn't know his dad is a secret agent.

 

I think the Stan/Henry interaction is like all the reflective ones we see. It's easier than the more complicated relationships it mirrors (be it Stan/Matthew, Philip/Stan or Henry/Philip) but if it seems like a solution, it's not. It could cause or bring out problems in those relationships, of course. But Philip and Matthew are both still there and also wanting a relationship. (Last season there was even scenes where it was *Philip* wanting to spend time with Henry and Henry was off doing something else. Just as Stan sometimes reached out to Matthew as best he could and didn't feel like it worked. )

 

Again, I don't see anything *wrong* with what Stan is doing, but I certainly get where the word pathetic comes in given his other relationships. And given how completely unselfaware these characters are (maybe Stan most of all) I doubt he's aware even what he's doing, whatever that is.

Edited March 29, 2016 by sistermagpie

[SlackerInc]

But that's assuming that getting these kids to be social activists would soften them up to be loyal USSR communists. Unless the writing staff consists entirely of Rush Limbaugh listeners, that doesn't make sense. This community pastor is not actually softening up his wealthy, suburban teens to hate capitalism and love the USSR. Pastor Tim is ordinary. If he were getting teens like Paige to hate capitalism, both the FBI and Centre would know about it. the Oh, and then by total coincidence, one of his most loyal congregant is the daughter of spies? That's soap territory.

I suspect you are going to end up being disappointed then. Some of you may remember that over the past couple years I have talked about growing up in a radical left-wing family that was involved in the El Salvador sanctuary movement. Well, something I didn't catch when watching my iTunes SD download (but heard about on the podcast) was that when Elizabeth was rifling through Pastor Tim's desk, she came across a brochure for the very same sanctuary movement. We have also been shown that an El Salvadoran worked with Elizabeth before, although she ended up having to let Larrick kill her.

I don't think this is all just coincidence, nor do I think the sanctuary movement was a mainstream church thing. Everyone I knew back then who was into it was totally on the side of Castro in Cuba, of the Sandinistas in Nicaragua, and the leftist rebels in El Salvador. They wanted these communist groups to win armed conflicts with the U.S. if necessary.

So I think they are going to convert Pastor Tim, and he and Paige will work together somehow. Of course, they cannot let either of them know the full extent of all the activities they are involved with, but having them work on supporting leftist revolutionaries in Central America will be no problem.

[magemaud]

I was confused by the airport scenes, Philip just took a little road trip from DC to JFK, at the very least an 8 hour round trip? Why not Dulles? But I was really impressed at that convenient parking spot he got right near the shuttle! As far as the girl on the shuttle, rocking out to "Tainted Love" while oblivious to what was going on behind her, were we to believe her headphones were blasting the music THAT loud?

Edited March 29, 2016 by magemaud

[La Tortuga]

Elizabeth's final scene with Paige rubbed me the wrong way, and it's not because Liz is pretending she didn't know about Pastor Tim. Elizabeth is raging at her daughter that she should have put her family first, but how many times has Elizabeth put her kids last (or "distant 3rd") when there's a mission objective? She only prioritizes the kids when they are in immediate danger. Sometimes one parent will stay home while the other is out, but I've lost count of how many times Philip and Elizabeth have left the kids alone late into the night. Granted, Paige is old enough now to stay home alone with her brother, but even in the 1980s, you didn't leave your kids all alone for the night if you thought there was a good chance you might not make it back.

[Hecate7]

But my point isn't that men back then weren't objectifying women and seeing it as totally normal (of course they did and still do) it's that Stan deciding to talk like that with Henry, as a peer, is not something everybody would do. 

 

If Matthew Beeman talked to Philip about how his science teacher had big tits Philip would not be jokingly asking for her phone number and saying "Holy shit, I went to school at the wrong time." (Or if he did it would be more a polite joke and a quick change of subject.) I don't think Gaad or Aderholdt would either. 

 

That's where the "pathetic" word comes up because it seems like Stan's so eager to just have the kid like him of course he's not going to start drawing any lines like that. Or it just doesn't occur to him.

 

It doesn't occur to Stan to draw those lines because he's not Henry's Dad. He's not Phillip. Phillip wouldn't ask for a phone number because he's married to Elizabeth. He's Henry's Dad. The boundaries are completely different.

 

It was totally normal for men to talk with teen boys like peers, and in fact in the 1970s ALL of my teachers did, even if there were teen girls in the room. It was considered the normal way to behave. Teachers, neighbors, pastors, older brothers, uncles, cousins--they all belonged to the larger world of "not Dad" and behaved accordingly. Maybe Gaad wouldn't--it's down to personal style there. Then again, the way he talks to Beeman, I think he might, actually.

[RedHawk]

I was confused by the airport scenes, Philip just took a little road trip from DC to JFK, at the very least an 8 hour round trip? Why not Dulles? But I was really impressed at that convenient parking spot he got right near the shuttle! As far as the girl on the shuttle, rocking out to "Tainted Love" while oblivious to what was going on behind her, were we to believe her headphones were blasting the music THAT loud?

Wow, great catch of what I think was an obvious mistake (that I missed completely!). Yes, Philip should have been on a "Dulles" airport shuttle -- surely they had "friendly" international pilots flying in and out of there.

I'm still bugged about the autumn trees in March, but to have that shuttle read "JFK" seems careless and dumb.

Edited March 29, 2016 by RedHawk

[Hecate7]

I got really confused about Philip having to kill that guard. And what on earth was that pilot's problem? Bizarre situation all round. I get the feeling that the real pilot wasn't even there.

[Inquisitionist]

Well, something I didn't catch when watching my iTunes SD download (but heard about on the podcast) was that when Elizabeth was rifling through Pastor Tim's desk, she came across a brochure for the very same sanctuary movement.

 

 

CISPES!  Committee in Solidarity with the People of El Salvador  I recognized the brochure because I had friends who were active supporters of that group back then and the name always stuck with me.   Great prop for Pastor Tim.

[RedHawk]

I got really confused about Philip having to kill that guard. And what on earth was that pilot's problem? Bizarre situation all round. I get the feeling that the real pilot wasn't even there.

I love this show but that entire sequence just did not work for me. The pilot being nervous, ok, I could understand. The security guard sensing something was wrong, sure. Philip failing to work the situation and defuse it, ok. Yet the need to kill the guard, the long time it took to choke him, the girl not noticing (and I think "Tainted Love" is SUCH an overused song from that era, and it meant nothing in the context) -- it didn't come together for me dramatically. Yes, taking ages to choke the guy made us see how terrible this is becoming for Philip, but all I could think of then was how the body would be found and, even though it wasn't the era of Homeland Security, it clearly was murder and not a heart attack or something. Too sloppy, too many questions. I guess we're to think that Philip isn't doing such a great job anymore.

[Clanstarling]

Elizabeth's final scene with Paige rubbed me the wrong way, and it's not because Liz is pretending she didn't know about Pastor Tim. Elizabeth is raging at her daughter that she should have put her family first, but how many times has Elizabeth put her kids last (or "distant 3rd") when there's a mission objective? She only prioritizes the kids when they are in immediate danger. Sometimes one parent will stay home while the other is out, but I've lost count of how many times Philip and Elizabeth have left the kids alone late into the night. Granted, Paige is old enough now to stay home alone with her brother, but even in the 1980s, you didn't leave your kids all alone for the night if you thought there was a good chance you might not make it back.

That rang very true to me. People often don't model the behavior and values they espouse to their children. They believe in what they say, but they are blind to the fact they're not being role models.

[sistermagpie]

I suspect you are going to end up being disappointed then. Some of you may remember that over the past couple years I have talked about growing up in a radical left-wing family that was involved in the El Salvador sanctuary movement.

 

 

I noted it very much for that reason! But my reaction was to think that this is where Pastor Tim might be persuaded to work with P&E, not that he's softening up his youth group to be Communists or like the USSR. Paige at this point has never shown any interest in Cold War politics, and nothing she's said about her youth group has touched on wars in South America. Pastor Tim is a pacifist. 

 

So yes, I think Pastor Tim's left-leaning politics have always been there to give him some sort of opening. If he was a conservative Reagan-loving guy he was just be in opposite. But the original point was still true that he has never been softening up kids to embrace the Soviets any more than the Civil Rights movement was softening up Gregory to be a Soviet Spy. It's unlikely that Pastor Tim is teaching the kids that the Communists should win in El Salvador and Paige has never spoken about it. Not wanting the US to intervene is right in line with Pastor Tim's politics as well as Paige's. Wanting the Soviets to intervene is not. 

 

We have also been shown that an El Salvadoran worked with Elizabeth before, although she ended up having to let Larrick kill her.

 

 

She was from Nicaragua.

 

I was confused by the airport scenes, Philip just took a little road trip from DC to JFK, at the very least an 8 hour round trip? Why not Dulles?

 

 

Because there were no planes flying to the right places out of Dulles at that time. This was a research issue.

 

She only prioritizes the kids when they are in immediate danger.

 

 

LOL! Then she's being actually consistent since Paige has put them in immediate danger!

 

But of course, Elizabeth's been a raging hypocrite plenty of times. She and Paige both always feel self-righteous about what they do even if it's something they'd judge somebody else for doing.

 

It doesn't occur to Stan to draw those lines because he's not Henry's Dad. He's not Phillip. Phillip wouldn't ask for a phone number because he's married to Elizabeth. He's Henry's Dad. The boundaries are completely different.

 

 

Yes, that's my point. He's not Philip and he's not acting like Henry's dad. He's acting like a dude who can interact with the kid as a friend or however he wants. That's also why Stan swears in front of him. He couldn't give a clearer signal that he's not his dad. He's cooler. He's got some boundaries in place--he's not buying him beer. But I think plenty of other adults on the show would have it occur to them to draw even more boundaries.  (Women, of course, are expected by default to draw those boundaries by default.)

Edited March 29, 2016 by sistermagpie

[Trillian]

Parents in the 80s just weren't friends with their kids like we're expected to be today.   Other than being spies and all - admittedly a rather big thing - Philip and Elizabeth aren't unusual parents for the time in their interaction with their kids.We've seen Philip, at least, go to a school function (the astronaut thingy in Season 1) and help the kids with their homework.  That was quite enough for the time.   As Hecate7 pointed out, Stan doesn't have the boundaries of a dad.  He's more like a fun uncle, who doesn't have to impose discipline so he can have more fun with Henry.  While it's sad that Stan's lonely, having lost his own family from his day to day life, it's not particularly weird or creepy that he'd enjoy playing uncle to the boy next door who admires him and looks to him for advice.

[RedheadZombie]

I'm late to the party, but wanted to add my opinions.  It was a long eleven months between seasons, they really needed a more thorough "previously".  Game of Thrones does this much better.

 

I've been over Nina for a long time, but it's nice to see her manipulate without using her sexuality.  I don't get why she did what she did, but if they're ending her storyline, it's a stupid way for her to go.  She should have been written off when she was taken back to Russia.

 

I completely forgot the storyline between Stan and the woman.  Was that started last season?  I don't get why she's spying or tattling to Stan. 

 

I don't want Philip to cheat, but I liked his chemistry with Sandra last season.  I like them as friends. 

 

This was the dialogue Gabriel and Elizabeth had about her mother dying:

Gabriel: Elizabeth, your mother died. We had someone with her - she wasn't alone. She spoke of you and Paige. She wanted to send a message that she loved you.
Elizabeth: Did she?
Gabriel: What do you mean?
Elizabeth: (pauses) Did she really say that?
Gabriel: Of course she did.

I think the writers must have worded it that way to give Elizabeth's "Did she?" some ambiguity.

On some level, she was questioning whether her mother, who sent her off permanently to be a spy, truly loved her. But she was also questioning whether her stoic mother would actually insist on sending a love message.

I don't think Elizabeth was questioning whether the woman she saw in Germany was her real mother - because that woman wouldn't have sent a message of love, either. The woman in Germany had the personality she remembered, but the message didn't match that personality, which makes her think the message is fake.

 

I don't believe it was a fake mother, either.  I had a different impression when I watched the scene.  I thought it possible that Elizabeth's mother was murdered, either as punishment, convenience, or tying up loose ends.  I'm not sure what I believe now, but it was nice to see Elizabeth distrusting of Gabriel.  I've always been skeptical about Dracula, especially when it comes to Philip.   I feel almost everything he says to Philip has an underlying threat.  He cares more for, or perhaps trusts more, Elizabeth.  In the episode in which he inoculates them, I got the impression that he could be possibly poisoning them.  But that wouldn't be productive, so of course he didn't.

[Umbelina]

I got really confused about Philip having to kill that guard. And what on earth was that pilot's problem? Bizarre situation all round. I get the feeling that the real pilot wasn't even there.

The pilot having a problem was probably the most realistic part of that scene for me.  He told Philip that he thought the co-pilot was on to him, he was doing very dangerous things, working for the Russians, and he was Czechoslovakian, which had it's own issues!  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Czechoslovakia_%281948%E2%80%9389%29 I don't know if they were blackmailing him, coercing him by using loved ones back home, or simply paying him for his work, I suspect, paying him.  He was over it, scared, and I hope he defected or ran, because taking that package or leaving it, that man doesn't have a very long or happy life ahead of him.

[sistermagpie]

I had a different impression when I watched the scene.  I thought it possible that Elizabeth's mother was murdered, either as punishment, convenience, or tying up loose ends.

 

 

I don't think there was any reason for punishment or any loose ends to tie up. If we believe the tapes are real, the woman was dying. The meeting was done with the understanding that if Elizabeth didn't see her now, she never would. Since the Centre would listen to any tapes her mother sent, there's nothing to punish her mother for, and it doesn't punish Elizabeth because she just thinks the woman died of her disease. It's no more convenient for the Centre one way or the other if the woman is alive. She's never been a loose end for anybody. In fact, I think the Centre would find it more convenient for her to be alive and sending her daughter tapes.

 

I don't know how Gabriel truly thinks about P&E but part of me thinks it would be really dramatically interesting if he really does love both of them and his anger at Philip is as much fear as true anger. But I don't think that's a given by a longshot. It's so funny when he says he came out of retirement to work with them because it's not like either of them asked for that. They probably would work with Claudia again now at this point and their last handler died for reasons that had nothing to do with them, really.

[JennyMominFL]

 

 

 

I d  I've always been skeptical about Dracula, especially when it comes to Philip. 

All I can think of when I see Frank Langella is that i saw his..um... handle(see what I did there) in a movie once.

[RedHawk]

I was confused by the airport scenes, Philip just took a little road trip from DC to JFK, at the very least an 8 hour round trip? Why not Dulles?

 

Because there were no planes flying to the right places out of Dulles at that time. This was a research issue.

 

Thanks, SisterMagpie, for explaining that. 

Edited March 30, 2016 by RedHawk

[stagmania]

Elizabeth's final scene with Paige rubbed me the wrong way, and it's not because Liz is pretending she didn't know about Pastor Tim. Elizabeth is raging at her daughter that she should have put her family first, but how many times has Elizabeth put her kids last (or "distant 3rd") when there's a mission objective? She only prioritizes the kids when they are in immediate danger. Sometimes one parent will stay home while the other is out, but I've lost count of how many times Philip and Elizabeth have left the kids alone late into the night. Granted, Paige is old enough now to stay home alone with her brother, but even in the 1980s, you didn't leave your kids all alone for the night if you thought there was a good chance you might not make it back.

That stuck out to me as being odd, too, but I figured Elizabeth was framing her demand for loyalty in a way that made sense to Paige. It's not as if she could say to her that she should put the cause first, when they clearly haven't made any headway in getting Paige  to understand or believe in it.

 

I also think it may be a very intentional line of dialogue, because I suspect we're going to see Elizabeth start to struggle more and more with where her loyalties lie-to her family or to her cause. I think for a long time, she absolutely would've done whatever necessary to fulfill her mission, even if it hurt her family (directly or indirectly). Now, though? I think we've seen the beginnings of a slow change, and her ideas about what the cause is worth to her are shifting. The way the Centre is forcing the issue by involving Paige is acting as a catalyst to force her to examine her beliefs. Right now, she's still telling herself that bringing Paige into this life is a good thing, and a way to share something that means so much to her with her daughter. I'm sure events will conspire to make her seriously question those ideas and put her loyalty to the test.

[sistermagpie]

I also think it may be a very intentional line of dialogue, because I suspect we're going to see Elizabeth start to struggle more and more with where her loyalties lie-to her family or to her cause.

 

 

Right, and that's always been so central. It's in the same ep where Elizabeth asks, "Did she?" in response to Gabriel saying her mother said she loved her. That obviously can be read as "Did she really love me?" She could have said to her own mother that she was supposed to put her daughter first instead of the cause.

 

Also in the pilot Philip says flat-out the family comes first, and he's set up in opposite to Gregory who was the person Elizabeth ran to when she couldn't deal with having a family and being a wife. Gregory specifically says to Philip that he and Elizabeth are defined by their willingness to sacrifice anything, including their family for the cause, and Philip points out Gregory doesn't have a family. The fact that Elizabeth chose Philip is another sign that she's not actually that person anymore--she knows the family is important to her even if she can't admit it yet.

[Vandy10]

Is it ok to mention the podcasts here? Because they're fabulous. Also, the podcast for this episode mentioned the JFK/Dulles issue. The writers/show runners said they spent a lot of time figuring out which airline/country the pilot would be from; it had to be someone that would be flying into the U.S., but also have enough contact with Soviets to pass the Glandes off. And, apparently, the airline they decided on didn't fly into Dulles, so they had to go with JFK. On a side note, the writers also said they spent a lot of time getting the uniform and accent right, only to find out later that you can't really identify he pilot's airline on his uniform in the scene anyway!

[Umbelina]

No, I'd love to though, want to give a link and save us some googling?

 

Linky:

http://theamericans.audio.slate.com/

Edited March 31, 2016 by Umbelina

[Vandy10]

No, I'd love to though, want to give a link and save us some googling?

Is this about the podcast? It's Slate's TV Club about The Americans. It usually has "the Joes" (show runners/writers) plus sometimes actors (hearing Matthew's real accent is a trip!), costumers, or others--like last week they had a real life Illegal on the podcast. I get it from iTunes. Sorry for no link--I'm mobile so it's harder to link for me.

 

ETA: Thanks for the link Umbelina! Also, note to self: too many typos when mobile. Stick to typing on a real computer.

Edited March 31, 2016 by Vandy10

[BW Manilowe]

Is it ok to mention the podcasts here? Because they're fabulous. Also, the podcast for this episode mentioned the JFK/Dulles issue. The writers/show runners said they spent a lot of time figuring out which airline/country the pilot would be from; it had to be someone that would be flying into the U.S., but also have enough contact with Soviets to pass the Glandes off. And, apparently, the airline they decided on didn't fly into Dulles, so they had to go with JFK. On a side note, the writers also said they spent a lot of time getting the uniform and accent right, only to find out later that you can't really identify he pilot's airline on his uniform in the scene anyway!

There's actually a whole thread devoted to the podcast(s). It's The Voice of America(ns): The Podcast. Right now it's on the 2nd page of the forum, which may be why you didn't know about it.

[queenanne]

Oh, Nina. Why?

 

I did feel a little bit bad for Stan when he offered condolences on the other guy's brother being killed in combat and the only response he got was, "So we're friends now?" You don't have to be friends in order to feel bad that someone's family member died, dude.

 

I feel like this is part of intentional line-blurring that could result in a defection hints or full blown storyline for Stan.  At this point, he's clearly got the idea that Russians are people too. He clearly more than liked Nina, and I think we were already supposed to see that he liked Oleg starting as early as last season.  Philip would just complete the trifecta.

 

I think that's definitely intentional. Not that Stan doesn't lecture Henry on going after someone his own age specifically, but he's not presenting himself as a father figure but a total peer. Last season he often seemed like the latchkey kid who hung around the Jennings hoping to be asked in for dinner, and his relationship with Henry fits into that well, especially since his rejection of Philip has been kind of immature as well. I can understand why he felt betrayed by just the idea that Philip was with Sandra, but his reaction still really does suggest that he's kind of stunted emotionally if he can't really wrap his mind around the fact that Philip and Sandra could have coffee. He's always been very bad with women.

 

We know he feels bad about his relationship with his own son, and we saw him being awkward in trying to bond with him before. But he totally is making up of it by being friends with Henry, not his dad (even if Henry no doubt now thinks it would be cool to have this for a father). His talk about sex wasn't creepy in the sense of there being any undercurrent that Stan was preying on Henry. But it was talking to him like he was an equal and encouraging that kind of bro-y sexism (basically: Your science teacher has big tits and wears sexy clothing? I want to hit that too!). He is kind of the older guy that looks cool to a kid but isn't. The guy even fails the most basic test of good taste by complimenting the cologne.

 

I actually wonder if that won't come up, with Henry saying sort of sexist things at home and getting corrected for it.

 

Isn't this, also, largely supposed to manifest itself as "Stan's subtle tradecraft"?  Not that he's intentionally "working" Henry (that we know of), but this kind of thing is second nature to Stan's treatment of people.

 

I think Stan told Henry that the teacher likely had no interest in him, and certainly Stan did not encourage Henry to pursue the relationship.  I think the main problem with Stan and Henry's relationship is that his parents aren't really aware of it, and Stan is probably overstepping in terms of his role in Henry's life. 

 

I thought we're expected to see that Stan is pretty clearly the current only male role model in Henry's life.  They haven't written any scenes where Philip so much as looks at Henry, in ages.  P & E's brain cells are all devoted to Paige.

[sistermagpie]

Isn't this, also, largely supposed to manifest itself as "Stan's subtle tradecraft"?  Not that he's intentionally "working" Henry (that we know of), but this kind of thing is second nature to Stan's treatment of people.

 

 

Or with Stan I'd say not so much tradecraft as him being an investigator. It's a subtle difference, but that's pretty much Stan. So I think when he's with Henry he's not by habit working him like a manipulator, but just taking in information about what's going on with him. That Henry has now made it clear that Philip is way absent tells Stan something.

 

Of course, the fact that Stan thought Philip was sleeping with his wife could make him put it together that way, that Philip's out having affairs like Stan was. But it could also just lay there in his mind as two separate things that add up to Philip not necessarily being exactly what he seems.

 

I wonder if the bowling scene is pointing to any different dynamic in the Jennings family now. Because as you say, P&E are totally focused on Paige right now. It's not that they're totally neglecting Henry--that's probably one of the reasons they have those convos about his cologne and his biology test. But they're a bit on auto pilot. Since Henry is the kid who doesn't announce himself and demand attention the way Paige does, they have to make more of an effort as he grows up.

 

It’s funny—in some ways Paige was more dangerous because she saw their weird hours etc. as being shady and was determined to understand it. With Henry he lets them alone but just assumes that they have better things to do. It makes it easier in some ways, but worse in others.

[hellmouse]

On 3/22/2016 at 5:59 PM, sistermagpie said:

It's hilarious that based on what he's actually said on the show and in previews after Glanders (repeating things so it's not a spoiler) he's suggesting giving himself authority to approve or disapprove of foreign espionage. Like if her parents aren't hurting people by his opinion it's okay, but it should go through him.

Like maybe the KGB could run assignments by him first. And that wouldn't be treason. LOL!

Pastor Tim seems to think that because he is a man of faith, that the normal rules don't apply. He answers to a higher power, so at times that means disobeying the government or breaking the law is okay, because it is part of his religious conviction. So I could totally see him thinking that maybe it's okay to be a Russian spy, depending on what kind of spying they're doing and how they do it, etc. It's ridiculously self-important of him, but it fits his character. it's like when he told Philip that Paige was a teenager who should be treated as more of an adult than a child, and Philip looked like he wanted to strangle him with his bare hands. Which we know he is capable of doing!

It's Pastor Tim's self-importance that gives Philip and Elizabeth the chance to work him using the "we're on the same side in this world" angle. They just have to keep him thinking that they are spies in the way he'd approve of.

[Roseanna]

On ‎25‎.‎3‎.‎2016 at 9:48 PM, Umbelina said:

The USSR was capable of quite of bit of damage though, and one common thing was making loved ones suffer back in Russia.  Does Phillip have any?  

His son outside marriage who is fighting in Afganistan. 

I don't think Elizabeth *needs* any such reason to continue.

I find the discussion about "the fake mother" funny. It seems that not only spies began to suspect everything, but also those wathing spy series.     

[Roseanna]

On ‎21‎.‎3‎.‎2016 at 7:45 PM, sistermagpie said:

It just occurred to me that Paige's parents knowing about Pastor Tim, and her knowing they know, might actually get her her first spy lessons. Because once they talk about her telling, if they don't decide to kill the guy (which it doesn't seem they will) they'd probably direct her on how to handle him, what to say to keep him from looking into them or something. 

Of course, I assume that will involve some lying on their part to Paige--they don't do anything bad, so tell him we don't do anything bad. But still, I think Paige put herself in a Martha situation of her own doing here if she wants to keep the status quo, or as much of it as is left.

"Martha situation" was called a "salami tactics" which the Communists used by taking over Czeckoslovakia in the late 40ies. In Martha and Paige's situation it means: a person is persuaded to answer "yes" to seemigly small requests, and in the end she has committed herself something to which she would have said no if she had asked the big request in the beginning.

On ‎24‎.‎3‎.‎2016 at 6:40 AM, Knuckles said:

Elizabeth has one cold heart..there is a part of her that wants to take Paige out...every instinct says her daughter is a direct threat to her, to Philip and to her cause...and her mothering instincts are barely restraining that urge. She must hope that by killing Pastor Tim, she can kill the not only the threat to her and her family, but recapture her daughter, to have her acknowledge the rightness of the work she and Philip have been doing. Pretty thin hope, especially with Philip more involved with EST than she ever imagined. With two family members wobbling, no wonder she has no time for Henry.

And her dead mother? Loved how she dropped that on Paige, who awkwardly moved towards Elizabeth in a semblance of sympathy, both of them acting out what might happen if there were real emotion involved. And, minutes later, bereft Elizabeth's gotta go...work calls, dead mother be damned. That dream of Elizabeth is the first indication that she has an interior life. We know she has an animating principle, the cause, but real emotion, authentic feelings, even straightforward love for her daughter...nope, everything is filtered through the prism of the cause. She is a deeply isolated human. And Gabriel, stroking her hand...beyond creepy.

 

On ‎24‎.‎3‎.‎2016 at 4:29 PM, sistermagpie said:

I don't think that makes it fake. She's never had a life where her emotions take precedence over what must be done. Lots of people work and grieve at the same time--and Elizabeth's grieving a woman she hasn't had in her life for 20 years.

I don't think that because Elizabeth could act proves anything about her feelings which are strong.

People are different. My best friend died when I was 16 and I was in the summer course. I put alarm to the clock, went to bed and cried, and when the clock rang, I stop crying, rose up and went to the course. That's how I learned that people I admired behaved.   

On ‎26‎.‎3‎.‎2016 at 7:10 PM, Tetraneutron said:

I agree Martha is incredibly useful. I think it's because the audience has been culturally conditioned to see "lonely spinster cat ladies" like Martha a certain way. Mostly with pity. So to see one being evil is a surprise. On most other shows she's break down, tell the FBI, and that would be her redeeming moment. 

I don't regard Matha as evil although her acts are undoubtly wrong and she knows it now clearly. In this show it's so fascinating that people are so complicated. 

Also generally, it would easy if only bad people would make bad deeds. But good intentions can lead to bad results. 

In Martha's case, to be loyal to something means to betray something else. If she did the right thing and denounced Clark, she would loose him and her freedom. For that she would got a good conscience. To Nina it was enough. To Martha, being together with Clark and having his love even (as she believed) for a little more time was more important, in fact the only important thing in life.

On ‎8‎.‎5‎.‎2016 at 5:40 AM, hellmouse said:

Pastor Tim seems to think that because he is a man of faith, that the normal rules don't apply. He answers to a higher power, so at times that means disobeying the government or breaking the law is okay, because it is part of his religious conviction. So I could totally see him thinking that maybe it's okay to be a Russian spy, depending on what kind of spying they're doing and how they do it, etc. It's ridiculously self-important of him, but it fits his character. it's like when he told Philip that Paige was a teenager who should be treated as more of an adult than a child, and Philip looked like he wanted to strangle him with his bare hands. Which we know he is capable of doing!

It's Pastor Tim's self-importance that gives Philip and Elizabeth the chance to work him using the "we're on the same side in this world" angle. They just have to keep him thinking that they are spies in the way he'd approve of.

I agree. Yet, what if Pastor Tim lived in Nazi Germany and he found out that somebody spied for Allies and wouldn't denounce him - wouldn't we think that his act was right and that he was a good person?

How about Pastor's friends - did they accept denouncing? I remember once reading about the Czar's Russia that the intellectuals were so much for Revolution that even if somebody had found out an assassination attempt against the Czar, he wouldn't dare to inform it even if he wouldn't have accepted it because all his fellow intellctuals would have condemned him.